How to Reach Your Fitness Goals (Hard-to-Grow Muscles, Lose Fat, Busy Schedule & More) | Dan Garner

0:00 The science and practice of enhancing human performance for sport, play and life. Welcome to perform. Dan Garner, >> Dr. Galpin, >> about time. >> It is. This has been a long time coming. >> Yes, we have have no shortage of time on the mics together. but the first time in this format, so super excited to have you here. I wanted to actually start by asking you about the summer. I I know you had the opportunity to be at two of we could just say iconic sporting events. you were at the Ronda Rousey and Gina Corano Netflix.

0:39 >> Huge fight, one of the largest viewed sporting events and certainly fighting events. and a real like interesting thing. And then a few weeks later, you were in the White House at that event with Shauna Ali and his competition and all that. So I want to hear a ton about all that. But my very first question is, what was the difference between those two events? >> Oh man, the difference between those two events was the security involved at the White House.

1:04 >> Showing up as a Canadian and seeing the US military flex is a different level, dude. So, everything went, the way it's supposed to go at any typical UFC. I arrive on fight week, we go through the weight cut process, we nail it, and from a like nutrition and principles and weight cutting structure, you know, it's business as usual. But one of the craziest stories from like behind the scenes that like you don't really see on camera and stuff like that was actually on the way to the press conference. This was hosted at the Lincoln Memorial, which is huge and amazing, by the way. That memorial is freaking awesome.

1:41 >> It's still really weird to hear you say all this, by the way. I think like a press conference at the Lincoln Memorial for a UFC event. >> Dude, it's crazy. Yeah, that is has a large chance of never happening again. >> So, on the way to this press conference at the Lincoln Memorial, I'm in this bus and it's like this special security area you got to go through to get into this bus. And then we're driving to the press conference and I'm looking and like the road is completely empty. Empty. This is downtown Washington. Completely empty. And then I'm looking on the side and they've actually blocked off every single street. So like they've carved the whole path for us on the I was like, "Whoa, this is this is for me. This isn't for Yeah. You feel like, whoa, dang." And then you're looking and they're blocking the roads with police cars, but then you keep looking. They're also blocking the roads with military vehicles with machine guns on top of them. And you're like, "Yo, this is actually this is kind of cool." But I'm also like, "Whoa." And then when I went bruh is when I started hearing the chopper above us.

2:42 >> I was like, dude, there's a there's block streets, machine guns, chopper above us. The downtown has opened up just for us to get there. Security like I've never seen or felt before. No one was going to be messing around. Yeah, you do. There wasn't no one was hearing a peep. That was excellently done security. Everything went perfectly and that's what separated the two events. one event like they were both huge, but the other felt like a world event. It was fun. I took in the moment. I've been working with Shawn for seven years now and we've done 14 fights together. It's been a heck of a ride. It's been it's been amazing. We got a tight-knit trusted team. So, hanging with the boys and getting the job done. He got a second round KO and saluted the crowd before Aan even hit them hit the ground. So, legendary.

3:28 >> There's that whole distraction. There's also the part of your brain is like we're also here to do our job and and we've got to like stay focused on Shawn and all those things. >> Y >> tell me more about the the Gina and Rhonda event like contrast that because that's also in one sense a supern normal >> event for us like this is something you've been a part of many many times. >> Yeah. but I know Rhonda was really vocal about your involvement, not only in the fight, but even how you've helped her getting back into shape post pregnancy, >> and all those things. So, with the UFC event, I know everyone got late last minute notice, >> but with Ronda's return, you had a really long time.

4:10 >> We did. >> I mean, quite a bit of time. So, we're going to get into like the details, tactics and and things that kind of separate all this, but just first just emotionally like how did that one feel going into that knowing it and and that whole experience? >> Dude, it was awesome. Like first, the emotionally just massive gratitude. The fact that I'm a part of these things is amazing. I absolutely love what I do and I love that what I do helps people do more of what they love to do. Nothing beats that. So, like Rhonda, she just had a kid. This was in 2025 like it was is like June July 2025 and she had she had another baby and she like basically contacted me immediately after. It's like I want to get back into shape. I want to do this this that and the other going through this process. I want to get into that athletic shape again. I was like all right let's do this thing. So then it only took a couple of months couple months later cuz she is a she is a machine. She follows the protocol like an absolute boss, like a real athlete, like someone who's been doing this her whole life, which she has been, right? She's an Olympian. And we we went through that process and she got lean and she got in phenomenal shape and was like, I want to fight again. I want to fight again. Let's do this thing. And so behind the scenes, we knew way before it was ever announced, like the intention's there. And when her intention is there, it's going to happen. something's going to happen.

5:37 Everybody's got to get out of the way. You got to join the team or get out of the way. So, she wanted it to happen and we were able to prepare for a long period of time. And yeah, a bunch of like a men's fitness and health, these things picked it up and and it was amazing. Yeah, she did an Instagram post saying thanking me for helping her reclaim her bodily identity post pregnancy. But she put in all the work.

6:00 I was just there to provide the guidance. She got in amazing shape real quick. And then fast forward, say 7 months or so, then we're starting official fight camp, moving into fight camp, and then going in there and getting a arm bar in 17 seconds. Part of the reason why I want to start with those questions is I think it kind of highlights a little bit of your career where, yeah, you've done plenty of athletes and preparation and all that.

6:23 You've done high performance. but here in the Rhonda situation, you're talking about helping somebody just get their body identity back. do basic things, lose some fat, feel more athletic. I mean, we could go on and on about that stuff. So, maybe if you wouldn't mind, maybe just give us a little bit more color on that of the type of people you've coached, what when you say you're involved in these, like what are you actually doing kind of your background and what do you do professionally?

6:52 and then that will set the context because I want to get into all this stuff. I want to talk about how you help an elite level athlete get better and then I also want to talk about how that helps just somebody getting their body identity back and and what lessons all of us can take from that. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I actually started my career as a personal trainer at Gold's Gym in London, Ontario, Canada. So, way way back in the day on the floor, I was the guy that people don't want to make eye contact with cuz I'd be at the front door like I can give you a free free training session. I got Yeah. Do you have any questions? That guy just hustling, man. And I would actually go to car washes around town and be like, "Personal training services." You put like your little post-it note. I do that at car washes. And there's actually a gym there. They're gone now, but it's called the athletic club. And I put my personal training services sign at the athletic club even though I worked at Cole's gym.

7:47 >> Dude, I just going everywhere trying to make it happen. That's what you got to do as a personal trainer. So, I started out working with anybody who wanted to work with me. So, this was moms, dads. I trained a lot of youth athletes for if it was fat loss for a vacation, if it was just to feel better, if it was if you came with a sore knee, whatever it was, I was taking on everybody I absolutely could in order to get as much experience as I possibly can. And that's kind of a a one lesson for any coaches out there is like me going around and hustling and learning how to acquire clients. That is a huge part of becoming a better coach. There's a lot of people out there where you're going to think, I don't want to work on sales. I don't want to get into the world of selling. I just want to focus on being a good coach. Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but in order to be a good coach, you need a lot of clients.

8:38 >> And in order to have clients, you kind of have to get people through the door. If you want any experience, that is that is a a necessity to becoming an excellent coach is have massive experience. So, you need to be able to talk about what you do and be able to work with people and and collect all of that. So, I began my career working with anybody who wanted to work with me. But then I progressively worked up to a situation where I was working with a lot more high performance people and high performance in different sectors of the world. So working with I've worked with billionaire CEOs. I've worked with politicians. I've worked with professional athletes, UFC, MLB, NFL, NHL. I've worked with actors.

9:18 So that high performance tip of the spear, that's what I've spent most of my time doing over the past 15 years or so. And the way in which that I've been able to get consistent results for such a wide variety of people is through blood analysis. blood analysis. being able to identify where people's constraints actually are. And the birth of that idea way back in the day was like in 2014 or so, I was identifying that people getting healthier was improving their performance. People getting healthier was improving their body composition.

9:54 Health was actually like a primary plateau to people moving forward. And it was something that I was realizing in real time where if somebody came to me with a goal because I al also been involved in a lot of functional medicine work in the past. So if somebody came to a goal with me to reduce their migraines, I would be able to effectively eliminate that person's migraines, but then their body composition would get better. or if someone would come to me and they've got bloating, distension, gastrointestinal discomfort in general or constipation or whatever, I would help them resolve whatever this gut issue was and they would be performing better. They'd be able to handle more training volume and there's this thing where I'm like, huh, people getting healthier is actually a major plateau and that that they consistently have.

10:41 So that type of practice eventually led me to realizing that like the theory of constraints is how most people can kind of look at their physiology and get past what's currently holding them back. And blood work is like such a massive way that you can look at your whole body all at once, identify what what someone's constraint is, and then resolve it at that level so they can move forward. And that doesn't matter if you're a golfer, if you're an actor, if you are a normal person getting ready for a vacation, that identification of constraint process is what helps you help basically anybody that comes your way.

11:19 >> Going back to Rhonda, I think we can use that as an example of saying someone shows up, had a kid, wants to get back. I keep using this phrase, I think it's really powerful. It's just like wanting to refine their identity. So in in that example, what are the first types of things you're thinking about in that client? What should they be paying attention to? Is this calorie deficit first? Is it we want to get you back exercising? Where do I start? I think you start with your schedule. That that's something that I've worked with a lot with people is I don't think that it's a mistake when you look at the highest performing people in the world.

11:54 You look at CEOs, you look at athletes, you look at the military, one thing they have in common is a schedule that they don't break. They get up at a certain time, they eat at a certain time, they train at a certain time. And myself and probably a lot of the listeners right now, whenever I feel like I'm like losing a grip on life, it's usually because my schedule's broken. >> The my normal habituation, the things that I do is, and you know, we see this happen when people travel. We see this happen when they have kids. We see this happen when business starts getting crazy. The schedule that kept you who you are is beginning to break. So actually looking down and looking at your week, you know, Monday to Sunday, what is the schedule that I perform best in? And how can I protect that? That's a huge part of your health. Cuz we can talk about grams per pound of body weight of protein, of carbohydrate, of fat, your fiber, all these things.

12:46 None of them matter if you don't stick to it. And what allows you to stick to it is actually looking at your schedule and learning how to protect that schedule. So that is something that I think is is key. have that front and center in your mind. When should I go to bed? When should I wake up? And then actually do one thing I've taught a lot of my clients in the past is to do a 60-second review of their day at the end of the day. And what that means is at night you can just stare at the ceiling and you're like, "Okay, well this morning I actually hit the snooze." And when I hit the snooze, I actually skipped breakfast. And because I skipped breakfast, I I just went straight to work. And I was I was worried and I I was going I I this whole process of my morning felt rushed. I didn't get my normal routine in. So I was probably a little bit more stressed than usual. And then by the time lunch came around, I was absolutely starving. And since I didn't get up early enough to pack my own lunch, I'm now going out for lunch while being starving. So I've got a higher predisposition to choosing something that is suboptimal. But also, since I ate so much for lunch, that afternoon fog is kind of like hitting me. I was more tired during the afternoon than I usually am. And then by the time dinner rolls around, I have my square dinner. I might have my normal starch, protein, vegetables, and then I'm out of here. That's the end of the day. You can look back at that and be like, "Huh?" Like my afternoon brain fog, my overconumption of calories due to my poor choice at lunch, my slight recovery around dinner time, that actually all started with this news. All of it did. And walking through your day like that is matters a lot. What did I do right today and what did I do not right? You can walk through that in 60 seconds and identify something pretty powerful. It's all like a butterfly effect that that butterfly flat can and can and will impact the entire day. So that schedule I just I can't say it enough. Protecting your schedule and then doing a 60-second review at the end of the day. They don't sound like they help your training and nutrition, but they are what protects it. And consistency beats intensity at every time, 10 times out of ten. You will only ever get results by being consistent in what you do. And you can only ever be consistent if you protect it like with everything you got. The presenting sponsor of this podcast is Momentus.

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16:26 I think muttering it to yourself actually something to the effect of to tomorrow's success is a result of today's preparation. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Tell me more about that. >> I will say that to myself. >> No, you 100% said it to yourself. I don't even know if you knew I was there. >> I have my headphones on and then I'm talking to myself. I'm a I'm a big fan of the removal of environmental resistance. So the more resistance you can remove, the greater probability you have of completing the thing that you want done. So tomorrow's success depends upon today's preparation. So at night, I will premix my pre-workout cuz I train in the morning. I'll premix my pre-workout. I'll premix my intra workout and I'll premix my post-workout.

17:10 Those are all ready. I have folded my clothes for tomorrow's training session so I can put them on immediately upon waking. But then I've also already folded what clothes I'm going to work in that day by the shower. So I am getting up, my clothes are right there. All of my supplementation to perform optimally is right there. My recovery supplementation is right there. Straight to shower, straight out. The clothes that I'm going to work in right there.

17:36 There's no decisions. There's no resistance. There's nothing. So you need to the the as much as you can prepare, the least resistance you're going to have. But the more you prepare too, the more confidence you're going to have. If you actually, you know, ask a hundred people, hey man, what's like your biggest fear? What's your biggest fear? A lot of them say public speaking. >> A lot. There's not great white sharks. You know, it's not crocodiles. It's like, y'all give me the shark before I speak in front of anybody. That's only preparation. That's all that is. Think about the you listening to me right now.

18:13 If I asked the listeners right now, okay, you've got to do a 2-hour speech in front of 50,000 people next week, they're going to think, oh man, that I am way too how am I ever going to talk? I I don't talk in front of anybody, let alone 50,000 people, let alone for 2 hours. Like I that there's going to be an anxiety breakdown happening there. But then 5 minutes before they're about to go on stage, I'll tell them, "Okay, scratch that. All you have to do is walk up there and recite the alphabet once."

18:42 There would be an enormous exhale. They're probably going to lose 10 pounds of water weight from the stress retention like that that they're like, "Oh, and why now are they confident?" Because they've said the alphabet 5,000 times in their life. They can go up there ABCD. They can just go up there and knock it out and get off. That confidence only came from preparation. So that preparation, I just think, is the key to removing resistance and being maximally confident. And if you've removed resistance in your life and you're confident, you're going to get a lot of things done.

19:14 >> I have three separate lines of question after that. I'll choose one right now. This is a difficult choice, but you have in the last 5 minutes given two incredibly actionable pieces of advice. The 60-second preparation or or review of your day as well as the just setting out your clothes and whether you're taking supplements or your preworkout, that point doesn't matter. The point of it is what do you need to be get done in the first 30 minutes of your day and have that in my world that's probably looks more like getting this kids school bags done getting all those things getting the dog food out like getting everything ready to go. So I I hope that's what everyone listening gleaned not like oh he's saying I have to have pre-workout or I have to work in the like no no that was not the point.

20:00 >> Yeah. >> You made it really clear but I think we should draw that out is you want to just remove any potential resistance. What is going to block you from getting that first thing done in the day and get it out of the way? >> So that that I think is the take-h home point. I do have to go backwards really quickly on this 60-cond. Is this something that you're doing mentally? Are you having people write it down on a piece of paper? Give me more of the mechanics there because I think this is a really valuable tool.

20:23 >> I think writing it down is better than just doing it mentally. But I think that if you just do one of them, like whatever it's going to be, choose what you're going to be consistent with. >> I personally just do it mentally. Yeah, >> I do it. but I used to not I actually have a journal beside my bed and I used to actually write that down, but right now I just do it mentally. I do it mentally when I'm on the road. But walking through that and yeah, I think this either or honestly.

20:51 >> And what are the ground rules for that? Are there things that shouldn't go in that 60-cond recap? Are there ways to make it a a positive reinforcement or avoiding negative rumination? You know, what are the guardrails we can put on that that make it a positive result? Not necessarily a positive experience, >> but it avoids people from just going, "Oh my gosh, I failed this today and I screwed this up and I" and then like because some people that's going to lead into a negative space where you just now you're gonna ruminate right before sleep.

21:22 >> Yeah, >> that's not helpful, right? so are there any constraints that you put in that system to make sure that maybe I I'll say it again like not positive per se because you're trying to be critical, you're trying to give feedback, >> but the net results is positive. >> I would say the very fact that you're giving yourself feedback based on analysis makes it positive. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. So there's a there's a big difference in my mind between someone who's experienced and someone who's wise. someone who's experienced, they may have just lived that day, but it's only experience plus feedback that makes you wise. You need to have feedback in combination with your lived experience to actually learn and become wise from it. So, if I'm becoming wiser in this process, it's essentially a reframe.

22:09 Wow, I did do that. That is the the feedback that I need in order to learn from that and not do it again so I can be more prepared tomorrow. I am now a wiser person. Because we've all seen someone who makes the same mistake for 10 years in a row. That person's just straight up experience, no wisdom. They have they're not giving themsel the honest feedback, which is the honest piece of action that they need to do in order to move forward. Your client list, we could name drop all day here and everyone listening would know these people and be like, "Wow, amazing. We've given you two. If more come up, fine organically, but we don't necessarily need to do that." But my genuine question is, do these people really do this? I mean, are you really getting somebody who's running corporations across the world to do this? Is Ronda Rousey, not her specifically, like, but are characters like that actually doing something like this? People absolutely do this. This is, and this is lots of times the key thing that moves someone forward. It's what separates evidence from coaching in a lot of ways because what evidence is is something that works at the population level but doesn't always work on the individual level.

23:20 >> You you're meaning scientific evidence. >> Yeah. Yeah. Scientific evidence, not coaching evidence. Those are Thank you for saying that. Two different things. Cuz there's a lot of great things that work at the population level that don't work on the individual level. And the reason why they don't work on the individual level is because even though they absolutely work, the person's got to do them. They got to identify it and it's that actually has to be their key limiter. So when you're saying, "Do people actually do this?" Like the busy CEOs, they are the ones who have to do it the most. You have to do this mindset stuff. You have to have feedback. And those like high performers, the reason why they are where they are, and this is a pattern that I've I've caught across the people that I work with, is because they are resultoriented and not activity oriented. When you become resultoriented, you're actually looking at a result, getting feedback from that result, and then adjusting accordingly so you can continue onward and get the next result. If you're activity oriented, you're doing a lot of stuff, but you're not measuring the result. And therefore, you have no way to continually continuously progressively overload that result. And we see these people in the gym say for 10, 20 years. I do three total body workouts per week and I do 30 minutes of cardio after. That's a lot of activity.

24:34 What do you have to show for it? Right? They're doing the same thing constantly. Whereas someone who is resultoriented knows, okay, this is the result that I want. This is where I'm currently at. I need to apply X progression in order to continue that result. So the CEOs, they are resultoriented. Athletes are resultoriented. You don't get another athletic contract if you don't get results. You're gone. Your business and the CEO won't grow if you're not. You're gone. Activity oriented people, it's like a real reframe for their mindset and can be heartbreaking sometimes because they're applying in many cases the same amount of effort as someone who's resultoriented. Yeah. But the hardest worker in the room is never the one who gets the most results. It's only the person who's able to allocate that hard work into the most intelligent areas who's going to get the best results. That comes from being resultoriented.

25:24 >> I'm channeling David Center in my brain right now. And I want to use the word say more. This is all I can come in my head. I'm listening to David too much. activity versus resultsoriented. I I want to know more about that directly. And you gave kind of one example. This is I'm going to the gym. I'm doing all this training for years on end. I'm high activity, but I'm not results. >> Other examples of that. And how do I correct it?

25:53 >> Sure. So, a good clean easy example is 30 minutes on the treadmill. So, when you're starting to get lean and you get 30 minutes on the treadmill, you're going to have a heart rate probably like depending on what you're doing obviously, but if you're doing 30 minutes say postworkout in the pursuit of getting leaner, you might be on that treadmill going at 120 beats per minute. But then as you get leaner and as you keep doing that treadmill work, your heart rate is only going to go 110, 100, 90, 80, 70, and then and then you're like, man, I'm doing the same 30 minutes. It's not the same stimulus anymore. So someone who's resultoriented, they're going to stay at 30 minutes, but they're going to watch their heart rate. So now they're going to stay at 120 and they're like, and then it's amazing. You're like you, as you get in better shape, it's amazing how much harder you have to work to stay at 120. It's really hard.

26:44 >> You're you're like, man, I have to go at this speed at this incline just to maintain this. When I started this, I was walking at a three with an incline at two. And then now you're just in a different spot. So that person that that's that's someone who's resultoriented and that's something I've done with people. So I never have to really increase the minutes of their cardio as they're getting leaner. If you watch your heart rate, you're just going to work harder as you get in better shape.

27:07 >> So this is an example of somebody who's using that 30 minutes of cardio as a method for body composition change. And so what you're saying, if I'm hearing that correctly, is if that person would have stayed at the same intensity, at the same speed, and the same duration of their exercise because they're more fit, then that actually isn't providing enough stimulus, as one example, to burn enough calories to keep getting them the the native calorie state that they get to. So, they needed to adjust intensity or speed to be able to get enough output because they've just gotten really efficient at it.

27:43 >> Yeah, you're just better. >> You're better at it. >> You're better. >> This is different than somebody using the treadmill for performance goals >> or where you might not want to do that or whatever. So, this just one example which thank super helpful. >> If you see the person who's on there and like in the a month ago they looked really tired but now they're like rapping and they're like singing and dancing that person. Yeah, that person's not working that hard anymore.

28:06 >> Yeah, >> which may be the point, right? >> If you got enough air to sing Rap God by Eminem while you're on the treadmill, you could probably work harder. >> I want to balance this because you've used this idea of progression and focus. you're obviously very resultsoriented person that you align with that. your clients align with that. How does this stuff apply for the person who's just not that attached to results? I just like going to the gym because it's fun.

28:34 I feel better mentally. I feel in a good spot. I kind of want to be healthier, but I'm not just like I don't want everything to be a checklist. I don't want everything to be a progress bar. >> I just want to be present. I just kind of want to enjoy my experience. How are these lessons applicable for that person or are they not? Are are those people really should just disregard everything you said? >> I mean, I would probably say two things.

28:57 Number one, I'm probably not the coach for that person. >> For sure. >> Yeah. those people don't really find their way to me. I'm a I'm a guy who solves problems and we'll measure your results and and I'm going to measure it and I'm going to make sure that they're happening because then we need to adjust if it's not happening. So, I would say that but then the second, you know, frame of that is maybe that is the result they want and that's okay too. If the gym is a social thing for you, like that is one of the primary things of longevity is social connection. You don't need to go in there and have headphones on and I got to be at 120 BPM. No, a lot of people actually just want to talk and be a part of be around people and get some movement and activity in which is still healthy. It's just not progressive. Those can be two different things. And I myself do that.

29:42 Like one of the healthiest practices I do in my whole life is walk my golden retriever. That is like I am out there. I'm getting 45 minutes of sunlight. I go into a forest and breathe in the natural air there and I'm just walking. I'm not going to progress that, but it's a really really good health practice for me. So, it just depends on what goals you have. And for me, being a coach and being results oriented, I kind of divide people into two categories. Complaining and not complaining, okay?

30:15 And this is goes for everything in life, okay? If you are not measuring results and you're not progressively overloading those results, but you're not complaining, >> you already won life, bro. >> You won, dude. If you're not complaining and you're happy, you won life. Who am I to say that you need to do this to be more resultoriented? That's ridiculous. He's not complaining. He loves he's good. But if you're complaining and there is a lot more result orientation and measurement and analysis and feedback and wisdom waiting for you on the other side of the door and you're not taking it and you're complaining about being on this side of the door, get out of here. That makes complete sense. Your example of walking in the four-seater dog, I just nailed it for me. Like, okay, great. So, there are some potential activities, things that you're doing for your health that you don't need to be results driven or in fact almost actively shouldn't be.

31:05 >> Shouldn't be. Yeah. >> You probably don't count your steps when you're out there. I'm sure you don't time it to >> meditate harder, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Great. but then the if you're trying to get somewhere and you're not getting there and you use the word complain, that's when it's like, okay, well, you've mismatched expectations and outcomes with actions, >> right? >> And that that's a problem. Okay. Really helpful from my perspective. Circling back, you you gave us two great examples of how you at night and the morning set up ways. I think you use something like you want to remove environmental barriers or constraints for something like that all under the guise of driving adherence.

31:49 >> Right? and as we know scientifically whether you're looking at exercise, mental health practices, meditation, nutrition, adherence will always be the number one predictor of long-term success. Right? You have to do the thing more consistently. You never have to be perfect. You just have to be more consistent or as close as you can. Do you have a third example? Are there anything else that either you do personally or found in your coaching clients that help remove some of those environmental constraints or barriers?

32:19 the evening practice, the morning setup, anything else pop into your mind of ways to improve likely to success? >> I protect a deep work block of my day every day and a big part of that is just getting my phone out of my room. I think that that's a huge part of success for anybody. Almost nobody does it. And I think it's worthy of mention the amount of work that you can get in if you actually sit there and do 2 hours of no phone and 100% work >> and no Slack and no email and then like >> nothing. And also like just think about like the listeners thinking right now.

32:54 When was the last time you sat at the computer and went 100%. I mean 100%. like you're looking, you're even moving the mouse pretty fast, you're typing, you know what you're going to do. The you've prepared the framework of what you're going to get done in that 2 hours in advance because preparation is success. You know what you're going to do. You're in there. There's no distractions. There's nothing. You are going 100% at the computer. Like people are probably thinking, I wonder when the last time I actually did go 100%. I don't they don't even think about going 100%. So in order for someone to like have success like my I I do protected deep work blocks of 2 hours and I put my MIT for the day in that my most important task. So if that's going to be a lab analysis, if that's going to be a research paper that I'm supposed to read, whatever it is, your MITs will change based on the season of your life.

33:43 But you should have a time that you protect within each day to get something in that moves you forward that's completely completely undistracted. The universe is very forgiving. It's very rare for me to come across somebody who actually did everything at 100% and the universe didn't give you what you wanted. That's that's very rare. Like, okay, I actually was in a calorie deficit. I actually trained hard. I actually measured what I was doing. I actually slept for 8 hours.

34:11 I actually did the mindfulness practices. I actually, if you're doing that stuff, you're getting in shape. The universe is very forgiving and it will do that for the you know if you want to research to have more knowledge if you want to work with people to have more experience if you want reflection to gain more wisdom th those protected blocks you're going to find very quickly that the universe is going to move you in the direction that you want because you you are applying the appropriate focus in order to get there.

34:39 >> All three of these examples translate into whatever your outcome you're after. Right? Okay. So whether this is being doing something at night that will help you follow your nutrition plan tomorrow. That's the point, right? Have that thing set up in the morning and then have a protected time where you're meal prepping. So if you exchange out say meal prep for deep work, the point is are you allocating time to get the most important thing done. If the most important thing is get your stretching in or get the most important thing is your journaling or like point is block that out >> and that's how you find your path to success.

35:16 >> The exact examples I hope are helpful but if those are not your goals you could switch it out for something else. >> Yes, they'll vary from person to person but the the principles and framework of that structure apply to all and that is what I do with people. You've brought up some other subpoints in there a handful of times and and I think this is a perfect way to get into these examples. You've mentioned science, you mentioned scientific evidence yourself. You u have published research papers. You've been involved in these things. It's not your primary job, but you've been involved in in science. And one of the reasons I I wanted to have you on and things I've learned. So so many things I've learned from you over the years is the second half of this sentence, bridging the gap between science and application.

36:03 And you started off by saying like look, most research is done at the population level, right? And what we're trying to identify is what's most likely to work in most people most of the time. >> But especially in sports science, it's different than medicine. But in sports science, rarely does a study or even collection of studies tell you exactly what to do for each individual client. It's just framework and guidelines, right? >> So I think the next chunk here I would like to spend more time getting into the details of that.

36:35 >> How do you stay evidence-based? What does that mean to you not as a scientist but really as the practitioner who still values and treasures science? Mhm. >> So I want to know specifics of even things like your thoughts on nutrition and training and supplements and but then also how do you balance that? How do you pay attention? How do you filter information and how do you put that into practice? So that wasn't a question that was a framing of kind of where I want to go next.

37:02 >> Mhm. >> I can't think of a better person to ask these questions to maybe we'll go backwards here and we'll just start with you pick your poison training nutrition supplementation somewhere else. Is there an example you can think of in your career where the science has really helped you make a positive decision with a client? So, you've gone in, you've wrote a paper, you've been to a clinic or a conference and you've learned something and then you put into practice and it helped it get got past a barrier.

37:34 >> Mhm. >> It it finally made a change. is there anything like that that has come up where again the science went this was the unlock and it worked. Now, >> maybe between 2005 and 2010, I thought carbs made you fat. >> I was I was one of those guys, admittedly guilty. >> it was 20 years ago. I'll give you a pass. >> 20 years ago, I was young. I was scrappy. I mean, I'm in Gold's Gym. Come on.

37:59 >> Yeah, your car washes. >> Yeah, I'm in car washes. but dude, very intelligent men with PhDs with books 500 pages long, and you look at these citations, but you don't really know how to interpret them yet. You're young. you're you're and you also want to understand something easy like you can grab on to carbs make you fat man I get that cool I can give my people proteins and fats and I think that is an area where I was young and impressionable and just trusted people for what they were saying and then I looked into the literature and I read for some other researchers and I was like oh no >> I' I've been saying wrong things and so the science really helped me like wow a a you know two things. Number one, people are paying you to get a result for them and you really need to know what you're talking about cuz you can just straight up lie to people, but you do it with such confidence that they pass it off as truth. And that's kind of what happened to me. People very confidently saying things that are straight up incorrect about energy balance. And I didn't know at the time.

39:07 so in this time period, I thought something very incorrect. And then I was rattling off mechanisms about insulin being a storage hormone and these types of things in like 2005 and this kind of I'm like whoa dude like I probably owe some people their money back if I'm honest. Okay, hopefully they're not listening to this right now. I know that guy from London. >> I paid that guy 20 bucks for a nutrition plan 20 years ago.

39:29 >> You don't want to tell people wrong thing or like you just don't. and number two, science really taught me how to have a critical mindset. Like e even if you're hearing it from someone very intelligent, someone you trust, someone you respect, you should still look into it yourself, you should still look into that research on your own because you may read the same research or come up with a different opinion or a different interpretation. And that was like probably the most relatable example to the audience that I can say regarding something I was very wrong about. And then I looked into it and learned that I need to be better for the people I work with. But then I also just need to be better for myself and and have a critical mindset and the whole like world of evidence and how I approach the bridge is you've got EV evidence-based coaching and as you alluded to evidence-based coaching sometimes gets mistaken for you can only do what's in an RCT and that's you know that's evidence of research but that's not evidence of who you're working with, what their preferences are what has worked for them in the past, what they're currently excited about. These things really matter. They're important components between the science of coaching and the art of coaching. So, I view it like modelbased thinking. I view it as being quantitative and qualitative. The quantitative approach to evidence-based coaching is the science, is the research. I need to have an understanding of physiology. I need to have an understanding of nutritional biochemistry. You need to have an understanding of training stimulus. I need to have this population level understanding because it does work and it is real and the mechanisms are known.

41:14 That is quantifying research so that I can tell my person what to do. And what happens when you quantify research? You're able to confidently prescribe your first program to that person with a higher level of probability that's going to work. >> Interesting. Out of the gates, you've got a higher level of scientific probability that that is going to work. Then there's a baton pass. Quantitative moves into qualitative. That is measure and adjust. Measure and adjust. Your first everyone freaks out about the first meal plan, the first training program as if the first swing at bat needs to be perfect. It doesn't. You know why? Because next week you're going to measure and adjust. Measure and adjust. Measure and adjust. Like that's over and over and over. that is what you do. So quantitative is quantifying the data so that I can give my first best guess and then qualitative is now I am qualifying my guessing through that client's subjective and biological feedback what's actually happening week to week and then we become a team now.

42:22 So in in the beginning I'm telling you what to do based on quantitative data. I'm the boss. You listen to me. But now that you're in this plan and I don't live in your body, you're giving me the bio feedback that I need to know in order to measure and adjust. Measure and adjust. All decisions are now being qualified through that person. And then it's like this zigzaggy thing up and to the right. And then you have that person's physiology and adherence figured out. That's when they're cooking with gas.

42:51 >> What do you actually care about first, the physiology or the adherence? Who cares about the physiology without adherence? It means absolutely nothing. It means nothing. Like if you don't have adherence, the best plan in the world won't work. And even population level stuff like in in sleep, for example, at the population level, it is great advice to tell someone to get in bed an hour early. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Are they going to do it in the real world? They won't.

43:16 >> Yeah. >> They just won't. So, like that works, man. It does. And it's it's phenomenal advice. And if you can do it, it's great. But as a coach, if I'm going to say, "Yeah, man. So this phase, we're going to get into bed an hour early." He's going to be like, "What's dude? No. I'm with I'm with my kid. We want to watch Netflix." no. >> There's also just no. So it's like then you you kind of something works at the population level, but it doesn't work I'll say at the individual level, but to stay on topic of like because I want to give people a framework. It doesn't work at the qualitative level.

43:49 >> Yeah. >> So what's your next move? It needs to become individual and it might actually not have this RCT up here, but it'll be very effective for this person in front of me who's paying me to get the result. >> Does that look something like you're asking them questions every single day? Are you taking measurements every week? What does that tactically look like? It tactically, quantitatively looks like blood work every 90 days and then weekly updates from that client telling me what's up. That question list will differ. So, if they have a fat loss goal, then I'm going to have a series of questions for them related to that goal.

44:30 If it was a gut health goal, there'll be a series of questions related to that. I'm not just going to give everybody the same questions. And then I also just want them to tell me what's up, too. So once a week I get that qualitative feedback on what I want. But then a trick that I've done a lot as a coach is I say what's the story? This is something I learned way back in the day because if you ask someone so how's it going man? Good. Of course everyone says good. No one thinks. It's kind of just saying hello. How's it going? Good. But if I say all right what's the story man?

45:02 It opens up this like yo now they can communicate to me what the actual story is. is it's been a total game changer in my coaching. You open the road up and you'll hear anything. You'll hear, "Oh man, I my my cat is keeping me awake at night." You'll hear, " I didn't get my meal prep done." You'll hear you'll hear maybe relationship problems like you open up that doorway for anything and that's a lot more valuable sometimes than what their body weight on the scale was that day. Today's episode is sponsored by EightLe. Asleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, sleep tracking, and more. I've personally been sleeping on an EightLe mattress for more than three years now, and it's absolutely glorious. I love it so much that I hate traveling away from home because I can't sleep on my EightLe Pod 5. As you'll hear me talk about endlessly on this podcast, there's really nothing you can do that makes more of an impact on your health and performance than getting a great night of sleep. And getting great sleep requires having your body temperature drop a couple of degrees at night. And that's hard to do on your own. The Eight asleep has been a gamecher for me because I run hot at night or as my wife calls it, I'm a furnace. If I don't have something like an eight helping me cool down, I'll wake up in the middle of the night overheating and not feeling great.

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46:53 Eightlee currently ships to the US, Canada, the UK, and select countries in the EU, and even Australia. Again, that's eight asleep.com/perform and use the code perform to save up to $350. So, getting into the human relationship aspect of it as a method of trying to drive and understand behavior so you increase your likelihood of adherence. and then we'll figure out what we're adhering to almost secondary, >> but we got to figure out how do we get you within constraints.

47:26 >> How do you handle the I followed the plan, coach, but my kid woke me up, but I had to take a late night call. sounds like, man, you're so results driven. You're getting your stuff prepared tonight. That's not realistic for me because I have kids. >> Mhm. >> How do you answer those types of questions? >> I agree with you. I agree with you. Yeah. Like if if that if that's what the situation of life, I've been in that situation. I've been in situations where business is crazy.

47:54 I've been in situations where my kid got sick and I missed training that week. I've been in I've been on travel for work and I've missed training or whatever. But >> you you have an average of a 12-hour delay every plane flight, >> bro. >> An average. >> Hey, hey, YZ Toronto airport calling you out. >> My god. >> I build it into my trips now. You do literally you fly in a day early and go back a day late assuming you miss a whole day every trip.

48:21 >> I have to >> and it's a 50% hit rate. >> Yeah. And it's a smart thing to do like the the correlation is it's there. >> Insane. >> Yeah. So that that type of stuff just needs to be built in for me and and anybody else who wants to you know not lose their mind in airports. But I you just have to have an expectation that matches reality. And what I've found as a coach is it's actually it starts before then. So if someone says like the example you said like I couldn't get I didn't say I didn't have this meal or this was busy I had to take care of my kid here.

49:02 I agree with you. However, normally your ability to accomplish a task is tied to how connected you are to the goal. That that's the reality of the situation. There's always a way to do things. There is. And if you're you you actually have to sit back and think about what goal you actually want and and make it important to you. Because if your goal is, I want to lose 10 pounds of fat and that's been your goal for the last two years, which a lot of people aren't, that goal is clearly not important enough to you, that body fat, it might hurt your confidence. You might not want to take a shirt off. You might not want to you might not feel good in your skin sometimes. Like these things can still negatively affect your life, but you're still not doing the thing. and I what I have found is like just sitting down with that person and asking them why like over and over and over again to identify if that goal is even important to them or if they think they should do it cuz they listen to a podcast or they think they should do it because someone else told them they should do it or someone else made them feel bad about it. You're free to change your goals. You're free to move on to something else. So it is two things. I believe that people have periods of their life where something is important to them and they can't get it done. But I also think in a strong way, and this is where I'm more of a hardass coach, there's generally always a way to get it done if you care about it enough. You had a child, you had, I don't know, somewhere between 3 to five businesses, and then within a six month span, you I think it was 6 months.

50:44 >> Yeah. You benched 405 pounds for the first time and ran a marathon. >> Yeah. >> This was your first ever endurance event of any kind. >> Yeah. >> For the most part. >> Outside of the obvious answer of Okay. You white knuckled it. You just worked harder than ever. Self-discipline. All that I'm sure was true. >> Mhm. >> Was there anything past that that helped you make sure you adherent? That that's a lot of program. That's a lot of stuff to do.

51:12 >> Mhm. And I hear that and I'm like, "Okay, either sleep went, family time went, business time went, training went, like some of one of those had to go away, >> but they didn't." So, how did you fit all that in? And what what did go away so that you could land all those things? >> You know what didn't go away? Presence. I I think that a lot of times time management is less important than energy management. And the way in which you can have optimal energy management is to be truly present in any given moment. So my daughter's hally, love her more than anything in the world. If I'm playing with her, I'm not going to be on my phone. I am there, right? I'm there in that moment. That's what I'm going to do.

51:53 >> You shut down still to this day at 4:00. >> Yeah. >> And you're like refuse to work under any circumstances after 4:00. >> No. No. Important meetings. They things that are really big. Not going to do it. And you're on the West Coast, so I know that annoys you. It's horrible >> cuz I'm like 1:00, my day is over with you. >> I'm gone. I'm out. >> Yeah. For the record, D and I have multiple financial relationships together, but nonetheless, >> so yeah. No, but I've been doing that for years. I've been doing that before 2020 cuz I was doing that in in one of my earlier YouTube businesses.

52:22 where I was just shutting her down at 4. That's it, man. I'm not doing anything after that. whatever happens after 4 can wait until tomorrow morning. that's just how I operate. But I think energy management, to get back to it, is more important than time management because you can have managed blocks of time. But if you're not present within those blocks of time, then you're activity oriented and not resultoriented. Like that deep work block I told you about previously, get your phone out of there and and stay focused on task. That's someone who has energy management and time management.

52:54 You're pretty deadly if you can do that. So, I have a concept that I call extreme balance because balance is typically seen as someone who is taking it easier. They're doing things at 50 to 70%. They're making sure that they're they can recover a little bit. It's like balance is it's kind of a scary word because it can make you think that you're doing something right when you're really just doing something comfortable. And I don't like being comfortable. I like moving forward. So, what I like to do with my life is extreme balance.

53:25 Extreme balance means I can train hard if I recover hard if I also spend time with family hard. If I also work and I have my deep work block so I can help my business partners hard. I think that you can do these things at a higher level and then be able to have all of those went to the same height for a reason. You're balanced up here instead of balanced down here. train hard and recover hard. And then when it's time for family, be focused on family. When it's time for work, be focused at work.

53:57 And you can accomplish, everybody listening right now can accomplish so much more than they think they can if they really take that to to heart. One of my mentors is a grad student. His office was in the lab and he intentionally had his computers and his screens facing the window and he sat with his back to that. Meaning you walked into the lab, you could see into his office, you see his back, and I could see his screen, which is like the ultimate like no one wants that, right?

54:27 >> Oh, that's a that's a ballsy move. >> That guy would come in at 6:00 a.m. with a jug of water, a cooler of food, and he would sit down and nothing would go on his screen besides word documents and research papers until 2:00 and then he would leave. >> That's inspiring. >> He was insanely productive. >> Yeah. He would get up, go to the bathroom, but he he would tell me, "Oh, I don't want to have to fill my water bottle up. That's too much of a waste of time. So, I'm just going to bring in a gallon of water."

54:54 >> I'm like, "Oh, >> dude." >> Talk about removing resistance, man. >> He wanted no resistance, >> dude. >> He had young kids. He trained. He competed in bodybuilding, like some stuff like that. >> Yep. >> And he just wanted to do what you're saying of my balance is I'm done by 2:00. >> Mhm. >> And and I'm going within those eight hours I'm going to put in. It was the most productive 8 hours you'd ever seen cuz there's nothing going up on his screen.

55:18 >> Yeah. >> There was never ESPN on there once. Like I never saw anything on there. No phone was out and he was just hammering away going to meetings, going to class, grading, whatever he was going to do. >> Get some. I like it, man. I like it. >> And he was wildly productive. >> Yeah. >> Wildly productive. I also think too, there's of course limitations to this, but I think when you are intentional about your life that you can live a life that you don't always have to recover from because you enjoy so much of what you're doing.

55:49 >> I think that a lot of what creates a large fatigue debt is when we're not doing what we enjoy doing. >> Your output is a lot higher when you're living with intention and you're doing things that you want to do. like the recovering from a life that you're really enjoying is not that is not the task. When you're recovering from a life where things are going really bad right now, it's insurmountable. So like that kind of goes back into creating and protecting your schedule. What schedule makes me happy? What and and better than happy? What schedule makes me prideful?

56:21 Like where where what schedule do I have where I have self-respect? And you'll be amazed at how much more you can do within that schedule and not need the crazy recovery practices from because of how in the moment and enjoying you are of of everything going on. >> So then I guess the question is if you can't control your schedule, what would be the second most important thing to control? Cuz you said kind of like the first thing to do was like control your schedule.

56:44 >> Yeah. >> All right. So what would be step two? Let's just say either case actually. Great coach, I got my schedule controlled. Now what's the next big rock I can move? which would be the same answer as a person who goes, "Oh, look, I'm I'll keep going back to I'm the on call nurse. >> I literally don't have a vocation where I control my schedule." >> Great. >> Let's just throw that in the you will never be able to control it.

57:06 >> Yeah. >> So, what's the second big thing to control? Is it >> something food related? Is it movement related? Is it sunlight? Is like what is the next big thing you typically like to get under control? >> Constraint theory. So that will someone might be sunlight, someone might be fiber intake, someone might be a protein intake. If you can't control your schedule, have one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day and target 15 g of fiber per thousand calories of intake per day. You'll be amazed at how many of your problems go away nutritionally when you hit a protein and fiber target per day. Those are targets there. And I don't care what your schedule is. Keep track and get it in when you can. Hit your protein and fiber target each day. Get some sunlight.

57:51 and I would actually also like constraint theory comes back to blood work. So if you can't control your schedule and you're someone who just like you're kind of stuck in that world, you better have a physiology that's resilient enough to survive in that world. And you're only ever going to really unlock that by looking at someone from the inside out. >> You said it twice now, but what is constraint? >> A constraint is a bottleneck toward progression in the result that you want.

58:14 To use a business example, a business will only ever scale to the degree that it is constrained. So this business is scaling and then it's become constrained. An excellent CEO is going to look down at the departments of his business and say, "Okay, our business isn't scaling or growing anymore. Is my business constraint in marketing or is it in sales? Is it in team culture? Is it in product quality? Is it in pricing? Where is my constraint? Let me remove that constraint so that the business can move to the next level." I do that with physiology. you look at somebody's blood work and you identify what is the nutrient status, what is hormone status, what is inflammation status, you're able to identify somebody's constraint from the inside out. And then when you're doing that, you're building this person's resiliency up from the inside out too. So that even in an uncontrolled environment, they are checking the boxes of their internal environment.

59:09 >> What are some of the more common constraints? >> We've gone through schedule protein fiber. great, >> man. You you you could help someone clean up their schedule. They're getting feedback from their schedule from the 60cond move a movie review of their day at night and they're hitting their protein and fiber target. That person's generally doing pretty darn good. Yep. And then that and then moving into say like blood analysis. constraints are found there. there's a lot of things. it depends upon who it is and it also depends on like what the constraint is toward their goal.

59:44 because sometimes if you have an unhealthy person metabolically, but they're an offensive lineman in the NFL, that's charge it to the game, dude. That's a that's that's a part of the process. That's that's going to happen and you need to be realistic about that. And they probably don't need bergam citrus bergamont and bourber to try and just relax. Yeah. Right. That's part of the process. A few popular ones are like testosterone, vitamin D, and omega-3. I think that those three are very popular. not just in terms of people talking about them, but people are talking about them for a reason. This would be someone saying I'm not reaching my goal cognitively, physically, recovery-wise, whatever. It must be my vitamin D. It must be my omega-3. It must be my testosterone.

60:26 That's what you're referring to is saying like popular. People are jumping to the assumption that those things are. >> Yes. But there it's also popular because that lots of times those are issues. People do there are a lot of people with particularly messed up vitamin D and omega-3 but not necessarily testosterone all the time. People think they need to be really high. They don't really need to. But the key is like looking at those and being able to actually program for them properly and knowing when you've achieved a successful result. The big part of identifying if someone's actually making progress or not is looking at what's known as CVA, CVI and CVG. Okay. So, put very simply, that's analytical variation of per someone.

61:11 That is the CVA. The CVI is the individual. So, the variation within an individual and then your CVG is difference from one to another. So, this actually determines noise of a biioarker. A lot of people look at biomarkers as if it's just a golden thing. It's good to go. And I trust the number that's on the paper. That is anything but the truth. Because between even between testosterone, vitamin D, and omega-3, you've got like testosterone is a fast and noisy clock.

61:44 Vitamin D is a broken clock. And omega3 is like an honest clock that that runs at the right time. So testosterone being like a fast and noisy clock, the reason why it's fast and noisy is because it can change a lot within a person and the statistical variance of it is 29%. So to backtrack a little bit, that analytical variation, what that means is the variation that a bioarker will go through from a machine. So just the machine processing the specimen is going to create a certain we'll just make a number but plus or plus or minus 10%. That noise level is your analytical variation. Your within self variation that's your CVI. That's going to have its own variation cuz dayto-day you're going to be different. 7 a.m. might be different than 11:00 a.m. stress status.

62:36 That's biological variation within yourself creating a known acceptable noise level. And then there's that that third one which is the how do you stack up to other people. That one actually doesn't matter. Yeah. >> So when you're looking at RCV, which is your reference change value, you're only combining your analytical variation with that within person variation. That creates what's known as an RCV. Knowing an RCV is what determines whether or not you're actually making progress in blood work. Getting out of that world. So, for example, testosterone has an RCV of 29%.

63:14 So, that means if you got a testosterone done today and then you did three months of testosterone herbs and then you testosterone went up 20%. That's actually within the noise. So, that that's within the noise of that marker. You may have not made any progress at all. That is just within noise. You need to be able to exceed this percentage of variation that takes place. So that's an important call out and that's a fast and noisy clock because it changes day to day and you can get blood work on a at a high frequency because it changes dayto day. It's not it's not connected to your red blood cells which have a turnover rate of 4 months. So you can imagine 4 months from now you're going to have brand new red blood cells.

63:59 Testosterone doesn't operate by that rule. It was fast and noisy. There's a lot of variance. Whereas with vitamin D, vitamin D actually doesn't have a known RCV. Doesn't exist. >> Interesting. >> Doesn't even exist. How you like look at that and and calculate it, you've got what's known as a homeostatic range and your measurements of a marker is like just some random scatter plot around it. And then the average of those is this homeostatic range that you stay in. that doesn't exist in vitamin D cuz vitamin D is constantly drifting up or down based on season, based on sunlight exposure, based on many different things. And Cavalier recently did a did a study exclusively looking into identifying RCV values for vitamin D in 2023 found nothing. Found nothing. So it's just drift an a homeostatic range with scatters around it. Scatters aren't the same as drifting non-stop. Yeah. Yeah.

65:01 >> And actually an analytica variation in that study was seen to be 49%. >> So the action point for for vitamin D is you actually need to compare like what what I think of as a coach. Okay. Well, if this is all over the place, how can I actually control drift and control analytical variation? One, measure season to season. So, I'm going to measure winter to winter. I measure summer to summer. So, that is going to give me, okay, drift drift aside. This is where I'm at in these seasons. And number two, control the blood draw environment. Same amount of fasting, same amount of hydration, same quest laboratory, and same machine that you're going to do the same blood draw method every time and can and compare season to season.

65:54 that's what's going to allow you to actually do have I actually protected my vitamin D here because there's literally no RCV for it. Whereas your testosterone, you know that you can make some progress if you're measuring from test to test and you're outside of the RCV. You did something positive to get outside of the RCV to make progress or life kicked your ass and you're actually below. But that's another thing that's just as important because if my testosterone goes down 10%. I might be like, "Oh, what? That did nothing for me. I got worse. No, you didn't. Because if you could blood draw tomorrow and it might be up 10%. Right. So that the identifying that with testosterone, fast and noisy clock. Vitamin D broken clock.

66:35 So you have to create your own lines for it. And then lastly, you have omega-3. This is the honest clock. This is the one where this is within your red blood cells. So you're measuring omega-3 status within the membrane of a red blood cell. that red blood cell has done the averaging for me. So you're look you're looking in there red blood cells have a half life of or sorry have a life of 120 days. So we're measuring the membrane status of that RBC. So I am getting a really good stable look at omega3 and the omega3 index is the marker that I I recommend people get that has a noise of 08. So you're going to get a percentage for your omega-3 index.8 is the known noise. So, you want to have an omega-3 index ideally of greater than 8% in order to optimize your cardiovascular and your cognitive health as you age. But like me, I I want to get into the nines or into the 10ens, something like that, just to get past the noise variation. And I think that that hopefully gives the audience insight on yes, you know, look at these markers, but really understand that sometimes progression or regression is nothing but noise.

67:48 >> I can't avoid the temptation to talk about all three of these markers more and what you've actually found works to improve them. Mhm. >> Prudent though before we do that to summarize what you just said because this was incredibly helpful and I want to make sure everyone got out of that the value that you just gave me. We the question I asked was effectively how do we understand when something is constraining me? So this is the actual reason or it's contributing. It wouldn't be a single reason, but it's contributing meaningfully to me not making progress in one of my goals. My goals could be my brain fog. My goals could be my joint pain. My goals should be I don't have energy today. And what you've identified is okay, start running an experiment to figure out is there something physiologically that is meaningfully blocking it. I'll reiterate, I don't think any of us would argue suboptimal vitamin D is the single and only cause of low energy.

68:50 >> No. Yeah. >> But it could be contributing significantly to it, meaningfully to it is probably the best way to say that. So then you walked us beautifully through >> constraints. Go find that constraint. Is there something that is happening in your physiology that is making that really difficult? Assuming if you remove that constraint then now your path forward is easier, more successful, all that. Great. Totally landed with me. Hopefully everyone caught that. Then you got into that and said, "Okay, well the first step in that of identifying if the constraint is gone or improved is you actually have to be able to identify >> Yeah.

69:28 >> Did it really move >> or are you seeing a false representation of progress or actually as you pointed out a false representation of regression? Yes. >> Great. I'm glad I understood that correctly. With that, I actually want to go through each one of those one by one. >> You you recaped that a lot more succinctly than I did, which much with much less handwaving. So, I I applauded you. >> Yeah. But I didn't provide the detail, which is like what mattered.

69:55 >> The handwaving is in the details. >> First quick question. Male and female, you've coached a ton. You've coached figure skaters, >> gymnasts, these are 120 pound girls that are keeping calories low. >> Yeah. >> Kind of doing all those things, right? You got Olympic medalists and and those types of sports. You've coached >> and yourself competed in fitness and bodybuilding and >> Right. So, you've been in that calorie load game. You've been in the hyper calorie endurance world. You ran a marathon yourself. You've been through them. Mhm.

70:31 >> So in with all that combined high calorie output, bigger body, smaller body, low calorie, male, female, just give me a rough understanding of what does total testosterone look like in in men and women that are performing great. give me the range >> and then give me the number at which you go, "Ooh, that is actually low enough for me to start caring." >> For your normal range, or the the range really that you want to be in for males and females, you're looking at 400 to 900 for men, and you're looking at about 25 to 45 for women. Going below those thresholds matters. I know a lot of people want to stay at 900 or more for testosterone, but those who are staying within the physiological range of testosterone, it's a it's unpopular opinion and one that I learned recently from a very intelligent colleague of ours, Dr. Ben House. done some done some phenomenal work in the in the world of testosterone. But the difference in say muscle growth and things like that between say 400 or 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, it's not as much as people think. You start getting a much bigger result when you get into the super physiological world of injecting testosterone. Then you're getting into the thousands, the couple thousands.

71:46 You're in pro bodybuilding. It just you have a number that looks like a 1-800 number. it just keeps going. >> Instead of four digits, it's six. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just looks it just like dial this. but so you you really don't want to get below 400. You don't want to for men, you want to get below 25 for women. And testosterone plays a big role in both of those environments, cognitively and physically. it's important for recovery. It's important for anabolism. It plays a role in muscle contraction. It plays a role in a lot of these things that are important for our mental, emotional, and physical health. And those are the ranges that you typically want to be in or the bottom thresholds that you want to review. And the thing that kind of trips those people getting into the lower thresholds is just not as sexy as as people want to hear. Like it's not a specific thing that happens. It's usually low energy availability. It's usually sleep. It's usually stress. Not sleep really independently. Sleep in combination with stress and low energy availability because stress and low energy availability both reduce sleep quality and length. And then that combination is just going to reduce anabolic hormone status by quite a bit.

73:00 >> I mean, are you really seeing these MVPs and Sai Young winners and high performers, are they really at 400 total testosterone feeling great? Is that happening? Are they at 600? Like where is a number where you're like, "No, legitimately people feel great here. They feel fine. We perform well." >> They actually do feel quite fine at that number. >> They do. Yeah. But it's not a number that you want to hang at. So like let's a good example would be like a fight camp or an off season. So if you're starting fight camp at 400, you're only going to go down from there.

73:33 >> Y >> because we're programming low energy availability. We're programming that. So if you're 12 weeks out and at 400, you're likely to get into a threshold that is connected with sub-optimal performance at that point. So does someone feel good at 400? If they started at 8 and then at the end of fight camp they're at four, I'm a happy coach. But if they started at four, they're probably not going to end at four because we're dieting, we're cutting weight, you're stressed, you're training a couple of times a day. So it it's it depends what road you took to get there. Today's episode is sponsored by David. David makes protein bars unlike any I have ever encountered. They have an amazing 28 gram of protein, only 150 calories, and zero gram of sugar.

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75:22 Again, that's davidproin.com/perform. You mentioned quickly sleep, stress, low energy availability. >> Give me a little bit more what low energy availability is. And then the second question will be, are there any other of those non-generic, non-ommon things that you found actually help get testosterone to increase? Let's just assume peptides and exogenous hormones are not on the list currently, which they totally are, but >> in this example, >> I mean, if the answer is no, that that's fine too. If the answer is like no, like the nothing else really works, that's fine. There's healthy low energy availability and then there's problematic low energy availability. Low energy availability, you are reducing this person's energy intake and they are in in at least in my world, they're involved in a lot of physical activity. they are training and there is like a sequence of events that takes place. You're going to see things like leptin and insulin drop and then you're going to start to see things like testosterone and thyroid drop and then you're going to start to see white white blood cells like these last things to hang on. They're starting to immune system like these things all happen in a sequential way and they're the difference between low energy availability and problematic low energy availability. And this is why I actually like doing this even for people with cosmetic goals because low energy availability is a state that you actually want to be in. And a lot of people feel great when you're beginning your fat loss process. You don't have blowing up distension. You feel pretty light. Your endurance is going up.

76:53 You're starting to look in the mirror. Things feel good. And then you know when you cross that barrier into now I'm dieting hard. This is this is starting to get tough. That's when that's when you're switching from low energy availability to problematic low energy availability. and you're feeling that because testosterone is going down, because T3 is going down, because metabolic health is starting to suffer. that can all lead you to a place where like in the art of coaching world, when I'm working with actual people, that's like the bad side of dieting. So, when you're doing blood work during a diet, it's like, okay, we're starting the diet and you've got your baseline.

77:29 Halfway through, you're in low energy availability, but not problematic low energy availability. This is expected. I've put you in a caloric deficit. Subjectively, how you feeling? What's going on? How's training? How's training performance? How's recovery? How's sleep? What's your gastrointestinal symptoms like? Because that's connected to this, too. you're coming back clean. Okay. So, I've got the quantitative blood work and I've got the qualitative intake coming from this client. And then you can get blood again. And if you start getting into problematic low energy availability, bump that person up to maintenance calories for two weeks, they take a twoe diet break. Lots of times they actually get leaner. This has been my experience.

78:04 They actually that bumping them back up to maintenance. You're going to fully refill their glycogen. Their pumps are going to be better. Their muscles are going to be rounder. Stress goes down because now they're eating again. Cortisol goes down. Water retention goes down. Training performance goes up. >> They definitely sleep more. >> They sleep more. lots of times you're increasing back to maintenance and getting leaner. And then you also from the inside out moved away from problematic low energy availability back to just normal low energy availability or none. And now you can re begin that process again. And I actually used to do this back in the day. I used to be a lot more involved in coaching bodybuilders and bikini competitors and these individuals to show day all the way all the way through the whole process. A lot of like cosmetic only like who cares about performance type stuff. And I would build diet breaks right into it before I ever did blood work. So this is way back in the day.

78:59 And I would do a 18week contest prep, which sounds long for people. >> That's brutal. >> Yeah. >> Really brutal. >> Well, it was 8 weeks deficit, two weeks off, finish 8 weeks. >> Interesting. And >> that's how I set it up every single time. It worked every single time. And then what it was like it's like, okay, for 8 weeks we're going to be underwater. We're going to be swimming. And then for 2 weeks I got to come out for air. I feel good. This is the water's nice. I feel good. And now I've got enough air to go back down for my last eight weeks. We're going to run you to the show and you're going to feel good >> during this two weeks. This is eat whatever you want. Total rest, no training. is that what you mean when you say back up to maintenance for those two weeks?

79:39 >> Back up to caloric maintenance. So, we're increasing typically it's just carbs and fats. Protein I keep at one gram per body weight the whole way through. And then we're just going back up in carbs and fats. You're getting glycogen. You're getting these fats. Foods. All these things are are good. And I personally don't change the training. We're still going to train hard. And you're and the reason why is actually a bit of art of coaching based because they want to train hard cuz you feel better. They feel better. And you're also like I've got this thing coming up. I want to achieve my goal. So like the problem they might not listen to me if I'm like we're going to increase cal we're going to like just think about the mind of someone who wants to get lean and like all right I'm going to increase your carbs and fast this week and we're also going to train less.

80:17 >> Yeah. They're like, "No, >> I just got all this progress in two months and now I'm going to go all the way backwards." >> Yeah. Yeah. And that that's doomsday. >> Yeah. >> It's like the the thing two things in coaching that you just can't say to a client is like that's one of them. We're going to take a diet break or they'll freak out. Number two is if you take their coffee away, >> holy You take someone's coffee away. Yeah. You're gone. You just the checkins the emails stopped coming in.

80:42 I'm not working with that guy anymore. Yeah, 100%. >> He's doing >> when you say go back to maintenance, this is typically a 500 calorie change, 1,000 calorie change. Like what what kind of a rough increase in calories we getting? >> Probably >> depending on the person's size, of course. >> Yeah. So, it's probably 4 to 800. >> Okay. >> 4 to 800, which is just an ocean of food at that time in their prep. Yeah. 4 to 800 depending on the size.

81:09 >> Okay. Super helpful. how does somebody know who doesn't have a show coming up, but they definitely have cosmetic or aesthetic goals? Just trying to lean up, look a little bit better. >> I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to go 8 weeks, two week refeed, come back up. First question, do you feel like that's a a reasonable strategy generally? >> Yeah. >> For the average person? >> Absolutely. Yeah. And that I can even So you've got your first eight weeks, 5% deficit, weeks 1 to 4, 10% deficit, weeks 5 to 8, back up to maintenance for weeks 9 to 10, and then 15% deficit, 20% deficit. So you go 5 10 maintenance, 15 20 done.

81:49 >> How do I know 10 versus 15? What does that actually mean? >> You're just doing an estimation and reducing calories. >> Total calorie number. >> Total calorie number. Yeah. >> And what is your favorite way to estimate that number to get started? I've just used the old school body weight ways. Like you can you can do a lot of fancy stuff in most cases, most of the time. Maintenance is body weight times 15. >> Body weight times 15.

82:10 >> And then guess what? Next week, measure, adjust. >> Measure, adjust. It doesn't matter. Everybody relax. You don't need to go go to a lab and this crazy analysis to identify where your maintenance is going to be. Just start. Just start. >> Can I do this in pounds, kilos? Does it matter for for my body weight times? >> Oh, pounds. That's a pounds reading. Yeah. >> So, I take my body weight, multiply that by >> 15.

82:35 >> 15. And that gives me a number. We'll say 2,000. >> Yeah. >> Right. And that's So, what you're saying is start at 2,000 calories. >> How many of each do I You've already described one gram per pound of body weight. That'll set your protein. How do I set my fats and carbs within that total number? I do one gram of protein per pound of body weight and then fats at 30% of total calories. Carbs make up the rest.

82:59 >> Right. >> Yeah. >> In fairness, everyone listening to I'm giving him no context. No individual person. That's just a rough number. >> Population level. >> Totally population level. >> One assumes you that 30% number is wildly different depending on goals and context and preference. >> Yeah. Yeah. Generally speaking, men can do better with lower fats. Women do better with higher fats. If someone struggles with appetite, I'll actually climb their protein. So, from stage to stage, it'll go from 1 to 1.1 to 1.2 to 1.3 to 1.4. So, grams per pound of body weight. So, I'm building that as it goes down while I'm taking away from other areas. And I'm taking away usually based on adherence. and I'm a fan of actually taking away from fats first and then keeping carbs in because the the most important thing that you need to have at the end of your diet is your muscle tissue, your muscle definition, and that's going to come from maintaining your lean tissue while you're in a deficit. And the primary stimulus for that is training. Like that's not going to be just getting your protein in. So I actually I hug the carbs pre-intraost and you what I used to tell my clients is that we're going to live hypoc caloric but train hyperc caloric.

84:16 So that means that you're going to live dieting but we're going to train like you're bulking and that's because I would put the majority of their daily carbs worse. You're going to the gym. You might be hungry outside of the gym but in the gym I promise you're going to get pumps. You're going to feel amazing and it's not going to feel like you're dieting because I'm putting so many nutrients in that window. Yeah, I love that strategy as a way to get quality exercise in. Yep.

84:37 >> So, carbs before, during, after, or some combination of that to feel great in the training. And then if you have a little bit of low energy in other parts of the day, that's the cost of doing business of >> trying to be hypoc caloric. >> Yeah. >> I'm assuming you probably wouldn't make many changes after one week almost no matter what. No. >> Unless you saw probably presumably a huge drop, >> then that might be more concerning than anything.

84:58 >> Yes, that's a great call out. Yeah. if if they're coming down too quickly, then we're sacrificing lean mass. So, I'm generally to give people a ballpark idea, I generally want one to two pounds per week. depending on where they're starting, of course. >> If you're 350 lbs versus 150 lbs, like we have a lot more to lose or less. >> Yeah. And that that's just going to And then also like if they started creatine in week one, you might go up. Like it's all this stuff needs to be taken into consideration to make a proper assessment from. When you brought up low energy availability, >> you said something really quickly that caught my attention. People have asked me this question before. What about the person who starts in a diet at hypoc caloric state >> and immediately feels those symptoms that you called I think you call a negative or problematic >> problematic low energy. Yeah.

85:43 >> Every time I diet, I just feel horrible in the first week. >> energy's gone, sleep's gone. They're not likely in chronic long-term low energy availability. But at some point, if you've been dieting for three, five, seven, eight weeks and you feel that now you're likely in so independent of blood testing. >> Yeah. >> How do I know if I'm the former or the latter? How do I know if I'm like actually causing T3 to go down? If my testosterone is lowering, I don't have blood work. I can't afford it. Whatever reason, what is signal versus noise and symptoms of low energy availability?

86:18 There's validated intakes that you can there's the lem and there's the leaf which is a low energy availability female or the low energy availability male. >> These are question scientifically validated questions. >> Scientifically validated question errors. So let's figure out let's like let's tease that apart. Is is this actually related to low energy availability or do you have anemia and we need to do your blood work. So I think filling out those intakes is probably the most straightforward thing that you can do. but if you're starting the process and you are already feeling these things really early, it's probably not low energy availability. It's just not something else is going on in your blood work and something else. And like for a female, a good insight would be menstrual cycle status. Is she still getting her status?

87:03 Is she not? Something else is going on. and that that type of weird symptom. Yes, I want you to do the validated questionnaires, but I would say yo you to do you have to do blood work and I actually do it anyways. >> Yeah. >> So, well, you have to do a process like there is a phase that you need to go through in order to determine if you're even ready to diet. >> Yep. >> So, like you have to prepare to diet.

87:31 You can imagine it like a like you're going to take off on a plane. you're you're looking at the dashboard and you're making sure we're checking all the engines like, okay, iron status is good, hormone status is good, the electrolyte status is good, like you if if these if if you're not cleared for takeoff, I'm actually not going to diet you and you don't want me to die at you cuz you're going to feel terrible. You're going to plateau and you're going to blame yourself when really you just didn't know what was going on from the inside out. You started this process with low iron. So just you you you were never going to win. You you tried to take off the planet with no fuel. So got it.

88:07 >> You need to prepare to diet. You can't just diet. >> So you were either already below or at just above a threshold and as soon as you brought calories down, >> boom, something went below that threshold. So advocating for some sort of a check. Maybe rather than maybe here's an example, you can afford one blood test or your insurance covers one per year or something. You maybe actually making the argument of doing that blood work before you start.

88:32 >> Yeah. rather than waiting to do it 3 or four or 5 weeks in. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> It's interesting. >> Yeah, that prepares you to even diet. >> Like you may not be and also if you're somebody who does feel terrible on dieting, it absolutely might not be your fault. Like that that that's a real thing. Like you've asked me a couple of times in this podcast like what if someone asks you this? What if someone asked you that? And one of the time I answered I agree with you. I do because I've seen people's blood work be off so many times that I'm like they're like, " Coach Dan, I feel like I'm doing all the right things. I'm just not getting the results that I expected." I believe you.

89:07 >> Yeah. >> When was the last time you did blood work? And then that's usually I did like a year ago. Can I send you that PDF? No, you can't. Okay. So, that person needs to prepare to even diet because something is going on. And that's like when you can change someone's life because yes they want to get leaner whatever but at the end of the day if you have anemia related fatigue if you have a vitamin D deficiency if you have low zinc status if you have these things that reduces your whole life quality your your brain fog like the symptoms attached to those things affect your who you are not just what you are they affect who you are. So this like this preparation phase, they feel amazing and then also then they're going to go into a diet successfully for the first time in their life and that's when you get the the Dan Garner testimonial for and it makes me look like I'm some like crazy awesome coach or whatever, but really I just did blood. I just I I looked under the hood before we started the process. I found the thing that was staring us both right in the face. We removed the constraint which allowed her to take things to the next level. very obviously no one has to do blood work prior to going on a diet.

90:22 >> You don't have to do that. >> I think more what I was getting at is the person who's gone and tried it three or four times and it doesn't work and they feel terrible all the time. >> Now we have a rationale. Maybe something's happening here. >> If that's not you and you're just like, I just kind of need to get in shape. I got 70 lbs. Oh, you good. Just like probably start and you're you're probably fine. I would rather people who need to lose a lot of weight just get started.

90:47 >> Yeah. >> Like if the constraint is getting some blood work done, not rather you just get started on your diet. That's a that's a bigger win for all of us. >> Yes. >> Which is great. We we should also probably it's fair. >> you and I have co-founded a blood work company, Vitality. >> so if any like gotcha they sell Yeah. got it >> like >> Yeah. >> Okay. You're out there. I want to go back now to testosterone though and actually to be I'm going to draw this out a little more. My hope is all the information you're sharing here allows people to solve all these problems on their own.

91:20 >> No one has to go buy anything from Vitality ever if you don't want. >> It's a great system there. But that's the goal today. So we'll keep in that theme sharing all the gold. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So you gave us the rough values for total testosterone. Give me the units on that. Typically just for our all of our international >> nanogs per deciliter. >> Nanograms per deciliter. And you walked us through some of the evidence base as well as what you've just seen in your coaching practice that helps that people actually elevate testosterone. And just to make sure we round that out, if my total testosterone is 500 and I take this supplement, I do this red light therapy, I co-plone comes back on my next blood drop at 505.

92:03 >> Nothing. If it came back at 520, >> nothing. >> If it came back at 498, >> nothing. >> Where is the line in this person? Like roughly where you as a coach cuz you you can go calculate 30% everyone. Go ahead and calculate it. Like that's a quick number. >> Mhm. >> 150, right? Okay, great. >> Yeah. >> But where would you actually go? Oh, okay. Like I'm paying attention to that. That that is interesting.

92:24 >> On on the lower or the high or both? >> Both. If if that person goes from 500 to 600. >> Yeah, I think 150 in either direction. So it' be Yeah. It would be 650 or 350 would be the swing that I would want to look at where I'm like that matters. >> That mattered. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Below that you're not disregarding it, but you're not 100% sold that your ex routine is actually driving a change because you don't know if that's just variation from day to day.

92:48 >> Yeah. >> If that's variation from the lab to the lab. >> Yeah. >> And also on that point, it's incredibly important that you get it from the same company both times. >> Oh yeah. Because as you mentioned like the lab itself actually use different techniques here. >> so if you're going to compare your blood draw from this company to the next draw company you some of these some of the variables and measures it matters some it doesn't.

93:11 >> Yeah. >> Omega-3 doesn't >> right. Yeah matter and but if for the ones it does it looks like a completely different person. >> Totally different person. >> Completely different. Yeah. >> So that's a an easy way to help reduce the noise. Just get it under the same circumstances as much as humanly possible. Absolutely. >> Quickly, what about free testosterone? >> Free testosterone is informative but not like total testosterone. Total testosterone, you can think about that like the full tank of available testosterone that you have to use in your body. And then free testosterone, people overromanticize it because it's what's active. It's what's doing the things. Your body is able to get that free testosterone when it wants to.

93:52 Okay? like you that total testosterone, that tank, that reserve, that's what you want in a in a good optimal amount. That's what I'm looking at in terms of thresholds. When I'm when I'm looking at thresholds for low energy availability, when I'm looking at thresholds for metabolic function, if I'm looking at thresholds for training stress, I'm looking at total. That's what I want to know. I want to know the total raw tank of testosterone that you have in your body. And the free will vary and the free will vary a lot from lab to lab as well. And you can get marker it be like a hundred different because if your test says if your lab report says free testosterone calc or free testosterone direct these are completely different readings. One is simply calculated and the other is actually the direct measure.

94:39 >> The direct measure means they took something put it in a machine and directly measured the amount of testosterone. How common is that versus calculation? calculations way more common because you're already getting a lot of the things involved in the calc. Oh, for if you're doing a sophisticated like a ver vermole, believe it's pronounced that way, calculation of it, you're looking at a combination of sex hormone binding globulin, albumin, and and your total tea, and then you're taking off the difference. You're using that as to calculate what's going on with free.

95:14 For biologically available testosterone, it's just albumin. That's the only other protein involved in it. But the direct measure is the pure actual measured direct. So, several important takehomes for everyone that I wanted to draw at you there. >> If you're comparing direct, and again, look at your lab report. It says free testosterone direct free testosterone calc. C A L C as in calculation. >> Y >> if it's direct, that means that lab directly measured it. >> That should be pretty standardized, >> accurate. Good measure.

95:46 >> And you can compare that across companies. There'll still be company company variants, but that should be okay. Under no circumstances should you ever compare your calculated to your direct even within companies, >> right? >> Because those numbers could be off by >> 100. >> 100. >> Yeah. >> It's it's not even going to be close. >> Nope. >> Not necessarily. >> The calculated means they didn't actually even measure it. They took three or four or five other markers >> assumed the difference based on evidence, scientifically published validated calculation. Y >> they're not fake. They're not robbing you of your money. They're not any of that stuff. It's just a different way.

96:21 But those values, you might as well call one free testosterone and call the other one available testo or you call it something different because they're just they're not even really the same thing. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Let's move on. Let's quickly do omega-3s and vitamin D just because those are so impactful. U let's do omega-3s >> first. If you were to flag omega-3s as very stable, like you some said earlier, >> y >> testosterone total testosterone is reasonably stable. And then on the further end of that spectrum would be something like free testosterone, which is way more variance.

96:52 >> Yeah, they're noisy >> up and down. >> Yeah. >> Omega-3s themselves, u what are the values you're typically seeing in people? Remind us of the numbers you like to see and then give us what actually moves the needle. >> Yeah. >> Outside of noise, what works? This is a marker that I think tells a lot about cardiovascular health, inflammation status, supports immunity, it's connected to cognitive aging, it's connected to mortality, it's connected to many, many, many things. So in terms of like a marker being looked at and being genuinely connected to what I would consider like an real constraint theory. So if there's a door here and to get through that door you unlock like five things like that's a real constraint man. That's like omega3 index. That's how you can think about it. And there's a recent NCAA division one they looked at 401 athletes.

97:45 Zero of them had over 8% which is considered the optimal range. Zero, none, none. And that optimal range originally, it started with one of the omega-3 index researchers. So like who owns the company, so that should be mentioned as well. But that range started like way back and I think it was 2002 and it was just being connected to mortality mortalities and hazard ratios, things like this. But it's progressed along and it's done a great job. And even as recent as 2023, there's excellent papers on omega-3 index continuing to shine in this world. So I'm a huge fan of the marker. Almost everybody comes back below 5%. And this is a really this is a place that you don't want to be in. When you start to get over 5.5% that's when you start to realize some of the cardiovascular benefits. But once you get over 8% that's when you're realizing the cognitive and the cardiovascular benefits and the mortality risk that you're starting to maximize everything in this world. And important to point out the the range actually goes from 8 to 12%. But that 12% was just based on that population. That's just what they saw that there is actually there's not a point and it's not not that I recommend this but it's not considered technically unsafe to be past 12%.

99:04 >> Right? >> That's just what's been seen in the data. So there's no further benefit, but it's just not been seen yet that is that there's a more benefit or that is it toxic to be beyond that amount. So you want to be past 5 and a half to start to realize some of the benefits. You want to be past 8% to realize all of the benefits and you want to stay right in that world. Me personally, I just got a test back last week and I came back at 9.34. And just for the audience, I'm not chasing for more. I'm not like, I got to have more salmon. I got to have more omega3. No, I'm in a gray spot.

99:36 >> And how much omega-3 are you taking? >> I take, and this is what I recommend for everybody, I take 3 g of combined EPA and DHA per day. So, not three grams of fish oil per day, three grams of combined EPA and DHA per day. And I do that at a 50/50 split. So, 1500 EPA, 1500 DHA. >> Any particular brands or anything that you get that from or you've been using to get there? >> Disclosure. I'm I'm friends and work with people at Momentus. but that's who I use.

100:03 >> Yeah. Okay. but that's I've got the omega-3 index to to demonstrate that that puts me in an omega the amazing spot. So >> So So for you, three grams gets you into the right wheelhouse. Plus presumably you consume a serving or two of salmon, fish. >> I probably one one salmon a week >> would be a guess. Yeah. And that's kind of what I recommend people what my clients do. so if you're at home and you have like chicken every day for your at home diet, anytime you go to a restaurant, get a different meat. So I think that's a practical example to get a different variety of amino acids, a different variety of fatty acids, a different variety of micronutrient intake and and also like with that like at the restaurant like you saw yesterday like I I got bok choy something I never get at home and I do that for a reason. Whenever I go out I don't want to eat the same vegetables I ate at home. I don't want to eat the same meat. I want to enjoy my meal but get a greater nutritional variety elsewhere. So yeah, I I go I do that salmon once per week because me and my wife go out once per week and I eat like a bodybuilder chicken and rice pretty much at home all the time.

101:08 >> So that's that's what I take for supplementation. That is the salmon that I consume per week. That's the threshold that you want to be at for the omega-3 index. Now, it's important to note that genetic mutations impact 24% of omega-3 uptake. So the same three grams for me is not the same three grams for you is not the same three grams for listeners. So there's not like one rule. Three grams of combined EPA and DHA has been associated to the better in inflammatory control to the better cognition. These things that you want to see, but you never actually know how much you need until you do your test.

101:47 You talk to like the legends in the powerlifting space and they're like just do the basics really good. You talk to the legends in the bodybuilding space. Do the basics really good. Even the speed space, the endurance space, get really good at the basics. In my world, this is what I think that is. Get really good at taking omega-3. How do you do that? You test. >> Yeah, that that's being good at the basics. It's actually not just take omega-3. It is cuz Okay, if do I want to improve my squat? I should learn squat technique from the best in the world.

102:20 And that's going to change how much I can squat that day. Oh yeah, >> I will be I will have more biomechanical leverage by learning better technique that day. I will appear stronger that day. And it was just through technique because there was a lot of technique I needed to learn in order to perform the squat properly to get the result that I wanted. Well, there's things that you need to know to take omega-3 properly to get the result that you want.

102:45 there's a lot of people that come my way who've been taking fishial omega-3 for years and they come to me and they're at 5%. They come to me, they're at 3%. They're not doing the basics properly. So, in this world, that's doing the basics properly. It's like, man, I listened to Dan talk quickly for 20 minutes and all he did was tell me to take omega-3. You have to do the basics really well. And you will realize dozens of benefits on the back end of that because you test, you see where you're at. I'm at 3 and 12%. Okay. I've been taking two grams per day. Now I have a target of 8%. So now I know where I'm at and I know where I need to be and I know I need to increase what I'm doing to get there. That's doing the basics really well. Number one. Number two, you're going to realize dozens of benefits on this end. And number three, you're actually realizing if your supplement is even working. There's so many people like, "Well, aren't omega-3s oxidized? Is this all?" You test that, man.

103:40 >> Just know just find out. >> Yeah. Whenever I've got a question for the world, the first place I don't go to is Instagram. Okay. Yeah, let me I've got a real important question. Let me just go to Instagram and and we'll we'll solve this here. This trusted this trusted group of thousands of people will really get no. Okay. If you want to see if it works for yourself, which is what you should do, get a test done and then you could even stay at your current dose, right? And then if if nothing happens, then then nothing is happening, right? And then you're able to change company, change product, change dose, change fish intake until you get to that spot. And trust me, you will feel it when you get there. Your subjective experience of life will change by doing the basics properly. Today's episode is sponsored by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has an ideal electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, but no sugar. Hydration is critical to performance, both physical and mental. And countless studies have shown that even a slight degree of dehydration, even as small as 1%, can lead to decreases in physical output and mental performance. We also know that electrolytes are critical to proper hydration, which I've been harping on for years. But you can't do that, proper hydration, by only drinking water, especially if you sweat a lot.

104:56 You need to get the right amount of electrolytes in the right ratios. And that's why I'm a huge fan of Element. In fact, many of you might remember that I featured Element in my YouTube series on hydration nearly 6 years ago. I featured Element in these videos because their blend of a,000 milligs of sodium, 200 milligs of potassium, and 60 milligs of magnesium really is unique and different than any other electrolyte on the market. And it has great scientific support. I use Element on nearly a daily basis, especially when I'm doing really hard training in the heat and I'm sweating a lot. If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinklmntt.com/perform to claim a free element sample pack with the purchase of any element drink mix.

105:38 Again, that's drinklmnt.com/perform to claim a free sample pack. Vitamin D is next. I don't assume this one is much different than how you answered testosterone thematically or categorically, omega-3 as well. So give me the same breakdown. Where do you like to see vitamin D? It's up to you. But where are you also actually seeing people where what's realistic numbers for what you're seeing for your clients >> and how do I move it?

106:08 >> Numbers come back pretty low. You know, vitamin D especially where I live in Canada. we got a countrywide deficiency in vitamin D with no sun and all winter. but it's I see people come back low and you know, you think about that that makes a lot of sense. They spend a lot of time in cars. They spend a lot of time indoors in computers. There's few people. You survey people like how many people get an hour of actual sunlight per day? It's not that much.

106:34 >> No, >> it's not statistically zero. >> Yeah. It's like you get very low. >> Get enough population, you'll see that number be zero. >> Yeah. And then it's like, oh well, there's tons of people low in vitamin D. That kind of makes sense. Yeah. That that of course makes sense. The normal reference range for vitamin D is 30 to 100 milligrams per liter. And then where I want to see it is actually above 40. So, and there's good research that below 40 it increases injury risk and it actually can increase stress factor risk up to 10 times. This is seen in military data. So, that threshold that's like a really cool example of where normal and optimal actually mattered and it wasn't just made up or pretend like and it's also cool cuz it's independent.

107:14 So, if vitamin D is less than 40, that's an independent risk factor for injury. So if you want to maximize your injury risk reduction like your injury risk status, vitamin D by itself will increase your risk. So you could come back normal at 35. That's fine. You're not deficient. But you are not optimally resilient as far as injury risk status goes. So I want people above 40, but more is not better. Above 40, but less than the top end of the range.

107:45 And then that's where you're realizing the benefits of vitamin D in your life from many different areas. Cognition, circadian rhythm, injury risk. Vitamin D, you look at the functions of vitamin D and it's all over the place, but many people come back low. How do you measure it properly? We talked a little bit about it previously. I measure season to season. So I'll measure winter to winter and summer to summer because the there's too much. It just it literally doesn't exist. So, I measure season to season instead of draw to draw. And then I'm not crazy with the dosage either.

108:19 That's like another thing I think people just don't realize how to interpret vitamin D properly and they just do this like hammer sledgehammer. It's like, okay, I've been on 5,000 IU of vitamin D and and then my vitamin D didn't go up, so maybe I'll try 10,000. Maybe I'll try 20,000. And they just keep going up. Like, bro, that's obviously not it. And when you're when you're at thousands of percent of the daily intake of vitamin D that you should be at and it's not moving, dare I say, your protocol sucks.

108:47 If if you're on 20,000 IU of vitamin D, your vitamin D is not moving, your protocol is not well designed and you it was your vitamin D in general wasn't interpreted appropriately. I'm having people generally between two and 5,000 per day. higher end in the winter months, lower end during the summer. IUs. >> Yeah. IU. >> Yeah. >> Y >> if somebody is on 5 10,000 IUs and it's not moving, >> why isn't it? >> It's an excellent question. So vitamin D is an acute phase reactant. So in the presence of inflammation, it will actually be artificially lower.

109:24 >> And also vitamin D is stored in adipus tissue. So atypus tissue being fat tissue. So vitamin D, if you're taking in vitamin D and you've got a decent amount of body fat in your body, you are hiding and storing that vitamin D in your fat cells. This is known mechanisms. So then who listening right now knows someone who's inflamed and overweight? >> Probably a lot of people, right? And you look at populationwide data, 70% of this country is low, 50% of this country is low. It's a lot of inflamed and overweight people, man.

109:52 >> Yeah, >> it's not hard to find. so then you see, okay, inflammation by itself makes it artificially look lower and then it's artificially lower again if this person's overweight. It's a poorly interpreted marker. And you can also like if you've just been training a lot and you didn't take time off, but from your workout to your blood draw and you've got elevated inflammatory markers and vitamin D came back deficient, those need to be co-interpreted. You need I'm currently inflamed, so I can now not trust my vitamin D reading because it's an acute phase reactant.

110:20 >> And how much of a response? In other words, if if I do all the right things and my vitamin D comes back at 50, >> right where you want me to be, >> and then I do some training and maybe I'm not long-term inflamed, but I got a little bit of short-term exercise induced inflammation cooking. >> Could that drop me to 20 on my next >> 40% >> 40% >> 40 4. So this could be something legitimately like you went from 50 to 30 >> in almost exclusively because of a combination of just the variability in the lab >> as well as what I was my inflammation in this example.

110:57 >> Yeah. And then you give that person vitamin D supplementation. They never needed it. >> Yeah. >> They never needed and now you're process and then the next reading comes back at like 85. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, you're a hyperresponder. No, he never needed it. he was already at the and you just went you just went out for no reason. >> What I like about all this is you're taking very simple markers, especially vitamin D where almost everyone goes, I know how to interpret that cuz they look right at it. It's one number. It's super simple. I can put it into GPT. I can put it into AI. It can totally interpret that for me.

111:29 >> I've never heard of a single person getting an AI prompt back that said, "Your vitamin D is low. What's your inflammation status? >> Did you exercise before?" >> I've never seen it do that. >> Nope. No one's ever told me that it corrected for that. >> Yeah. >> Which is interesting. And 40% is a very large number. >> It's huge. Yeah. >> What I also think is helpful here is for both omega-3 and vitamin D, the answer itself, assuming it was a real finding was the source. In other words, if vitamin D is low, you need vitamin D.

111:58 >> Mhm. >> Most of the time. >> Yeah. >> If omega-3 is low, your recommendation was consume more omega-3. >> Yeah. But when you got to testosterone, if your testosterone was low, your recommendation was not take testosterone. Your recommend not to not do that, but your recommendation was sleep, stress, lifestyle. >> Yeah. That to me is a really important thing because as you start going through blood work or performance gains or body composition or subjective, it's really important to understand that the solution isn't always the number isn't always the same thing.

112:36 Right? In this case, as one example, >> you may want your testosterone go up, but the solution itself is not taking more of that, >> right? >> Per se. >> Yeah. No, there's other pathways >> for sure. And sometimes the pathways they're just not obvious. Like if you could have low testosterone and it's not because you have a deficiency in tribulus, >> right? >> Okay. It's not because you have a deficiency in in some herb. It may be because of low energy availability. Like you see your low testosterone. You actually just need to eat more calories.

113:05 >> Yeah. >> It had nothing to do with the herbs that >> it's a response rather that in that case. >> Yeah. As a quick answer here, are there any neutrauticals that you feel like actually do move the mark on testosterone meaningfully? >> Yeah. I think ashwagandha has a has a decent effect. I really do. but the way I test that effect is never in the beginning. So once you are relieved of constraints, then we'll add it. That that's how I see if something's going to work or not. And that's at n equals 1.

113:39 but people should be doing that. We're all different and you don't want to compare yourself to population level stuff all the time. So if you've done an analysis and you've removed your constraints whether they're from the blood or not. So you're just in a good position right now. Now you're in a position where you're reducing noise and you can see if something actually works or not. And I actually do think 600 milligrams of ashwagandha in most cases most of the time for natural people who are relieved of their constraints you'll see a good bomb and you'll see a subjective reduction in stress.

114:09 >> Are you comfortable with people running that indefinitely? Should they stop after 6 10 12 weeks? What are your thoughts on long-term ashwagandha? >> I'll generally cut things off and change them on an as needed basis every 12 weeks. Yeah. So every every 90day cycle is typically when I'll switch things off. Just as a coach and being a cautious coach at that, I like to air on the side of okay, this is a short period of time. Let's use it as a tool and then let's get back to what's, you know, what should be the focus, which is lifestyle and nutrition. I can't let you escape our conversation about aesthetics, people just wanting to look better.

114:46 There's the the old famous quote that for every person who wants to be strong, you'll find 10 who want to look strong. >> Yeah. >> So, I get it. You all want to look a little bit better. You you gave us a lot of really good practical advice on the nutrition side, especially assuming you want to lean lean up and and lose some fat, right? So, you're eight too is >> very helpful there. I'm interested in the training part of the equation and I I want to go into specific exercises and questions about that. But when you were talking about the schedule, this came up in my brain and now is a good time for it.

115:23 If I am at this goal, I like I mostly want to look better. I want to feel better. I want to perform better like mostly just like want to look better as a primary goal. Do you care from a scheduling perspective? Does it matter if they train in the morning, train in the evening? Does it matter how many meals they're having per day? what time those things are? So, in the theme of scheduling with the primary goal being aesthetics, where do you land on these types of things?

115:54 >> I want to land where they're going to be most adherent. I know it's like it's a boring answer, but it is the real one. no, >> it's not boring, though. It is not because it's actually like directly telling them a prescription. >> Yeah. You want to be where you're going to be most adherent. If that's in the morning, if that's lunch, if that's in the afternoon, go where you are going to be most consistent because nobody builds a great physique quickly. Nobody. That does not happen. This takes months, years, decades sometimes. Like depending on who you are and what you want to accomplish. This is not a short game.

116:25 >> That's not to say you can't make progress quickly. >> Oh, for sure. >> But you're just not going to get all the way. >> Yeah. Decades is more like get to Mr. Olympia status type of work. But people people can make incredible progress in in just 3 months. Like it is it is amazing what you can do to a physique with real dedication across a 3 month span. But it's not the length of time. It's the consistency of the quality training sessions. That's what's going to determine somebody's result at the end of the day. And quality is important because you don't you want to fit it in where you perform best and not fit it in where you can get it in always. And it's a bit of a contradiction of like, hey, I want to just maximize adherence. But when possible, if you do perform better in the morning than after work, try to get up a little bit earlier and perform it in the morning. if you actually are someone who likes to train at 6:00 7:00, there are some people who like to train a little bit later. Train at that time. So be more consistent more than anything, but have when you feel best to be at the forefront of your mind because in the world of physique enhancement, that mind muscle connection matters a lot. And some people will say that it's not to some people say, well, it's just it's just a range of motion. You're going to activate things no matter what.

117:41 It's just not the case when you when you do work in in real world aesthetics. I had a a story once. I was at this biomechanic seminar in Toronto and there was a pro bodybuilder there. Everybody knows his name and he was doing chest flies in the way that he feels it best. So not in the way that he was shown, not that like it was maybe biomechanically perfect, but he used the word I feel it the best here. And there was this absolute dork there telling him that he was doing it wrong. And this guy that it was just the most disconnected from reality example of someone subjectively feeling a contraction and being sore the next day. So like that feeling was there, the damage happened, the development was showing and someone else told him he was doing it wrong. But that's all to say that your mind muscle connection has to be there. And I generally think that you're only going to have that great mind muscle connection when you go to the gym at the time that you're actually going to feel your best. And that prioritiz return on investment from effort that you're applying in the area that you want to develop most. Go when you feel good, be consistent with it and put that at the top of your workout.

119:00 >> You made it really clear. The way that you coach is concepts driven, not methods. Yeah. >> And I know you I can say this. you'll use whatever method >> suits and whatever fits. You're not tied to those things. You've not made a career, a brand or companies based on training methods or nutrition methods or you're very independent with those things, right? you have the concepts which you've shared. So I don't have to ask you that question because I know that answer from you directly. And I think that's freeing because at the same time that doesn't mean you can't give recommendations for direct methods because you actually have to coach. You have to give results to people. In that vein, where do you stand quickly on things like intermittent fasting, on meal frequency, and we'll just kind of run down the list quickly. based on your experience, not necessarily what the research has shown.

119:56 Is does it work for you and your clients? Do you find them to work a lot, a little bit, everything? Because I I know the real answer is it depends. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You've done it all. You've seen it all work. But categorically, which ones do you find yourself as a coach using more than others? Maybe that's the most succinct question. >> I gravitate towards four to six meals per day as opposed to intermittent fasting. But massive disclaimer, total daily caloric intake, total macro amounts. Have to use the disclaimer so someone doesn't say, "Well, it's the only thing matters." I know.

120:28 >> Okay. So total daily caloric intake and the way in which you structure your total macros that is at the absolute top of the mountain. But from there I have found that people actually perform really well with four to six meals throughout the day on training days and then intermittent fasting on non-training days. I think that there is a value to be had there. but the four to six meals throughout the day that's mainly just to keep something in the gut for training. Like I said previously, I like to actually stack the training window with a lot of nutrients pre-workout, a lot of nutrients during, and a lot of nutrients immediately post.

121:03 And that's just going to involve a higher meal frequency. I tend to also get better subjective feedback from people who have a steady flow of nutrients coming in throughout the day. if you're going into a session, and there's a lot of people that are going to disagree with this, but I I just completely disagree back with them. If if you're dieting and you're going to train fasted, man, training fasted in a hypoc caloric state, it's pretty tough.

121:29 But if you can get a meal in you before you go to the gym, it is a completely different workout. It is a totally different workout. So, since I want to prioritize performance, since I want to prioritize stimulus, I generally lean towards four to six meals throughout the day, an even distribution of protein in every meal. So, if you're having 200 grams of protein per day, you're going to do 40 40 40 for five meals. 40 throughout the day, a steady, readily available supply of amino acids throughout the day, is an excellent place to be at. Carbohydrates are hugged around wherever you train, whether that's A.M. or PM. And then fats are not around training, whether that's A.M. or PM. anything else that stuck out as you're like, you know, I just I know that there's evidence on both sides of this equation, but I actually just found myself using this side of it more often than not.

122:18 >> I think when people are dieting, shuttling calories to the evening is something that helps sleep, doesn't hurt it. It's very that's something you just see in the coaching world. It's very common practice in science world. Do not eat within as far away from bedtime as you can. And there's great data on that. >> Sure, >> there's great data on that, man. But then when you have someone who's dieting, who's going to bed starving, they're going to bed sympathetic.

122:38 They're going to bed activated. They're like, "I'm hungry, man." And you you give that you shuttle most of their calories to the end of the day, that person's going to sleep better. So like I like as I like the calories, and that's honestly as a coach, I will bias that calories around training and calories before bed, which goes against a lot of some sleep people out there, but I just don't really care. >> You're not going to be sleeping if you're that hungry.

123:00 >> Yeah. You're not >> like, and we don't have data on this. Like people don't do studies on fit people in a hypoc caloric state and there it's just so you're not really comparing to the same population. >> Yeah. >> Same outcomes, independent variables, dependent variables. They're different. >> That qualitative feedback will come back. You'll measure and adjust and if they've got a wearable on, you know, sleep metrics aren't ideal, but you can look at total sleep time. You're saying total sleep time improve things are better. Like, hey man, like we're in a good spot right now.

123:26 >> What about from an exercise perspective? do you do you care if they're doing their cardio or endurance work in the morning or first? Do you prefer them to get their lift in? Do you care if it's in the same day? How do you think about putting those pieces together? Assuming most people are doing a combination, right? Like let's take away your professional golfer and all that stuff is like a very sport specific thing. the average person who's trying to be well-rounded in their fitness. What are your thoughts on kind of balancing in the schedule two opposing stimuli?

124:00 >> Maximization of stimulus within the day matters. If you're somebody who is more of like a jack of all trades, more type of longevity focused, more functional fitness focused. I think stacking sessions together is actually appropriate for what they want to do, what they want to accomplish. In the world of cosmetics, I do like doing single stimulus days. So we are going to do hypertrophy today. You're going to do cardio the next day. You're going to do hypertrophy the next day and after that I think that's just the principle of directed ad. We are going to direct a specific stimulus to get a directed adaptation and we are not going to disrupt any molecular signaling along the way. Especially since like the way this question was phrased to me is like just this person going they're not the professional golfer, they're not whatever like this person just needs as much direct stimulus as they can in order to get this done. I like one session per day. I don't care when it is so long as it happens at the time that they can be consistent to and that they prioritize either their weak link or what they want strong first in the session and not just large muscle groups and smaller muscle groups, that stuff doesn't matter in aesthetics. If you want to train arms first, do it. If you have small delts and you want them to develop and you squat that day, I don't care. You're going to do lateral raises before you squat. Like that is just a prioritization of your goal.

125:09 We're going to be resultsoriented towards driving progressive overload in that. And then as like a example weekly structure that someone can follow. I think a great split you would have chest and back and then legs and then shoulders and arms and then you've got the whole body with those three. Now that'd be like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday off. Thursday, day one chest and back. Day two legs. Wednesday off Thursday shoulders, arms. Everything's been hit. And now that's three days per week and everything's already been hit.

125:44 That fourth day now can be dedicated to what you want to develop and bring back up. >> Got it? >> So that's the flexibility that I like to have when working in physique enhancement. Everything's been hit and you can hit something and maintain it way easier than you think, but growing something is very difficult. And typically I like to dedicate a day to what that person wants to accomplish within I work in 8week blocks. within that 8week block. So if you want like and people would like cringe at it or whatever. If you want to do an arms only day, then you should cuz bodybuilders know that freaking works. Yeah.

126:19 >> Okay. And then you would also hit it like they're going to get hit indirectly here or also directly with the shoulders and arms day. But you reserve that fourth day for the weak link or what you want to bring up, which is usually a weak link unless you just want a dominating crazy body part, which your goals are your goals. I don't care. I'll program appropriately. >> I want the largest forearms ever. form day >> and that that brings you to Friday, right? So, just full recap now cuz this actually this is important because it's a rotation. It's not a weekly split.

126:45 >> I was going to I was my next question actually. >> Yeah. So, this is how you keep because frequency matters too is what makes it not just a bro split. So, Monday chest and back. Tuesday legs. Wednesday recover shoulders arm. Friday whatever you need for that 8week block. Saturday off, Sunday chest back. So instead of doing chest back on Monday like you did previously, we're going to do it a day early, still after a recovery day. So you're in a great spot, but you're getting each muscle group twice per week now. So what you're actually doing is you're running five workouts over six days because then you're just and you're just going to continue to run in that cycle regardless of weeks. You're ignoring the idea of a 7-day week basically.

127:32 >> Yes. and prioritizing recoverable volume. >> Exactly. >> Which people can do. If you train chest on Monday, your chest isn't sore on Sunday. >> We can train it. I want that extra frequency in. >> To clarify, double ring down. You said Monday in this example would be chest and back. >> Chest back. >> And then you do chest and back again on Sunday. >> Sunday. >> And then the next week it would be on presumably Saturday.

127:55 >> Saturday. >> And it just keeps moving. This actually allows you to get one more training day in per week. >> Yes. which is a rolling thing. So then across your eight weeks and you can start to do the math there. You're going to slide two to three more sessions in per body category. >> Yeah. >> Which is going to hit you there. >> Yeah. Everything gets hit twice every six days. So even the things you're not prioritizing. And then you're prior prioritizing volume is you have a whole day you can do that. Exactly. So that each muscle group getting hit twice every six days plus an actual recoverable volume approach to prioritizing a body part. that split like that's a great place for people to start a really great place.

128:35 >> What's wonderful is that gives you also a buffer to X factor >> where it gives you the buffer of not going hey Monday is my chest and back day but then all of a sudden my plane got delayed >> and I missed Monday. Now what do I do? >> Do I push the whole week back one day or do I just skip chest and back that day? >> You're pushing >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So now well because your system is built to that. It's not built for Monday is back day or Monday is leg day. No, >> it is the next workout up and if that workout is 3 days from now, then that's when it is.

129:03 >> If it's tomorrow, great. >> Y >> do you ever have find yourself or your clients having to take an extra day of recovery of just going like too sore here, I'm going to take two days? >> Sometimes clients are in a quantitative stage to go back to the beginning of the pod where quantitative is I know what you need to do so you need to listen to me. >> They kind of need to gradate graduate to qualitative.

129:25 >> Yeah. Because sometimes people actually don't know their own body. They don't really know their own body. They don't know what they're capable of. So if they're in a stage where they're like, I need a couple of days off and it's like Sean Ali for example. I believe you. >> Yeah, dude. Like you know these people know their body unbelievably well. It's like to their detriment where they won't take days off like and not Sean. Sean's good at that. But like there's a lot of people who are just they think it's a mental toughness exercise to go to the gym with an HRV of neg five. Yeah. You know, >> right?

129:55 >> Yeah. So, like, >> and that's when you have to have metrics like that because you have to be able to see that and you can't rely on how you feel, >> right? >> Cuz you're just going to push through it. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, but sometimes you do need to take reactive days off and and that's fine. That's going to happen. In the world though of things that you see in the real world that sometimes a pure science-based evidence-based approach won't always follow is I I briefly like I said quickly I work in 8week blocks. I don't de load after four weeks. There's a lot of people who do that after four weeks. I just don't think people fatigue that fast. I just don't. And I think if you do fatigue after four weeks, your diet is probably off. Your stress is probably off. Your sleep is probably off. there is a constraint in your blood that you don't know about. Maybe it's selection bias. I work with people who are pretty work they're workh horses, right? I simply do not see people running into a wall after 4 weeks if they are healthy people. I run people to 8 weeks. So, I do something unique in that world, too. So, when I do de lo, I don't just reduce volume and intensity of the current plan that they're on.

131:02 which is what a lot of people do. And I also don't just take a week off. What I do for people is I do one week at 50% reduced volume of your next training phase. >> Oh, interesting. Yeah. >> Walk them into it a little bit. >> Yeah. So what the one of the things that creates the largest amount of unnecessary damage with no further adaptation is novel stimulus. >> Correct. Yeah. >> So you're going to go in there with a novel stimulus and you actually do that at 50% less volume. So you're not totally destroyed and you're actually effectively doing the de lo.

131:30 >> And then also one of the big parts of getting results in anything, but especially cosmetics, well I guess especially everything is skill acquisition and technique. Sometimes it takes a week to get into the groove. Even me, if like if I haven't done front squats in 8 weeks, like my first week back, I'm probably not Mr. Mr. Clean on front squats. So like that first week back, I'm reducing the unnecessary muscle damage from the novel stimulus by reducing volume by 50%. I'm improving my skill execution by having one week to prepare before I actually go into the 100% prescribed volume. And I did it all while effectively doing a de lo.

132:13 >> That's really clever because I do a similar thing in intuitively but not as effectively because the first week of my nude programs and I typically get them about every 8 to 10 weeks as well. I get a new one >> and week one I will always do that myself because I don't want to wake up the next day obliterated. >> Yeah. >> And now have to take two or three extra days of rest off the first week of the cycle. Like you can't get into it. I actually like feel bad to my coach. I'm like, "Sorry, like it took me 12 days to get through your first week because I I didn't know this movement exactly. I don't do very traditional exercise movements.

132:50 >> So, I don't know like the lot of the times I'm doing movement I've never done >> like in my life. So, I'm like I don't know how to load this thing. I don't know how heavy to go here >> and I don't want to wake up the next day being like, "Oh my god." >> Yeah. >> Just annihilated. Right. >> Yeah. The second thing is because of that and and I'm so technically concerned and there's so many details and notes with every exercise that I get the work the first time through a new workout it takes me two hours not cuz it's that long of a workout because I'm like it takes me 20 minutes to just like tinker through it. So if I go heavy on top of that and I need to rest and recover the workout is going to take so long. I'm like I don't have that kind of time.

133:31 Yeah. >> So I go light so I can go through it fast. I undercut it on purpose and I go, "Okay, great." Like nothing blew up on me and then the next week I hammer it. But I don't do that proactively. >> Yeah. >> Like I do that reactionally as opposed to like I'm generally >> maybe even take a little bit of rest before that. But I should just make that the rest week. Yeah. The deo week.

133:49 That's >> are there. You just add add a little bit of structure to that and that then that's bolted right into your plant. >> That's really really smart. I would agree. I don't ever see general population people for the most part needing that much of a de lo. >> Yeah. >> I actually handle it personally. I let schedule dictate it. >> D loads probably just happen to me. >> You're going to get them. >> Yeah. Yeah.

134:10 >> Like you're going to travel, you're going to do something else or whatever. Kid's going to have this extra thing. All right. >> It's kind of just baked in. >> Yeah. >> For the most part. So yeah, I don't really don't follow that. with the exception of really structured, really focused and consistent people. and and endurance like when you in our world we're generally talking about strength training related things. >> Yep. >> It is different if you're running 100 miles a week >> like very very different story here.

134:35 >> Don't compare apples and oranges. Yeah. Yeah. >> Not even close to the same thing. >> Yeah. >> You mentioned lagging body parts >> particular places that people want to focus on. Two-part question. First, what are those that have popped up most commonly to you? What are the areas people have really either struggled to develop or just wanted the most? Like my my presumption is and actually I remember when Brett Contrarus was sitting in that chair, he was like, "Look, guys want bigger arms, girls want bigger butts."

135:04 >> Yeah. >> Okay. Probably checks out for for a lot of large. >> Yeah. I don't think I need populationwide data on that. >> No. But what are the ones people have the most difficult time progressing? And then how have you solved that? either from an exercise selection or an exercise technique or programming. What are the ones that have come up to you most commonly for like the fourth time I've asked the same question now? >> That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

135:31 so it's so different people's people people the way people are structured it changes how they recruit and execute and exercise properly. They fall in similar buckets. You're going to get a guy who's very torso dominant. And because he's so torso dominant, there's a lot there's these small arms to this guy. He can really grow. He's got excellent activation of his back when doing back movements. He's got excellent activation of his chest when he's doing chest movements. Every time he's pressing, it's like all chest, all anterior delt.

136:00 And it's minimal recruitment on triceps relative to other people. And then same with the back. The mind muscle connection with the back is so fantastic that he doesn't actually need his biceps as much when rowing. And then you have the reverse. You have people who are very arm dominant. You have someone who rows and then they're like the the biceps are the fatigue because their connection to the row actually pulling them back is very poor and they're very arm dominant and same when they're pressing. They're very very tricep dominant and their chest doesn't grow.

136:28 So that person who is who is very torso dominant, there's the guy who kind of needs the arm day. They need that arm day that I was talking about. If you're torso dominant, you got great chest and back, that isolated arm day will do wonders for you cuz your arms aren't growing like other people's arms are when doing compound movements. The recruitment is not there. Now, if you're somebody with huge arms and you've got crappy lats, that's when you have to take the arms out of the process. So, something like a straight arm rope pull down or dumbbell pull over, something that a machine pullover, you are isolating the lat purely by itself with no arm whatsoever. And you're also going to be have a greater response from executing proper chest flies as opposed to relying on presses for chest development. So isolating it and doing your best to keep the arms right out of the movement. Calves >> mostly genetic man. There's there's a lot of things and strategies that people have in order to increase calves.

137:26 And sometimes it works and most of the time it doesn't. And then a lot of the people with big calves will tell you that they don't do anything for them. >> I'm going to I'm going to be real honest with you. I'm probably on the nine out of 10 scale in terms of what people desire for calves. >> Yeah. >> I've just I don't really never done anything for them outside of athletic movements. I certainly do some feet related training and things like that, but I've really never been like, I'm trying to grow my calves.

137:51 >> Yeah. >> And people are often like, "Oh my god." >> Mhm. >> Like I'm in that bucket of hate. >> So are you really telling me those people that are envious of me, they have no hope? They have nowhere to go with those calves. I mean, yeah, it's a tough one, right? There's more to it. Okay, so it's a muscle. It will respond well. Generally speaking, from a fiber perspective, standing calf braces are going to attack the gastro more effectively.

138:15 >> Seated are going to attack the soius more effectively. So these are the different parts of calf development. Gastro is going to respond very well in my experience to heavier loading. So anywhere from five to seven reps. And then your soius is responding better to lighter loading. And then the biggest thing with that is like, okay, lower reps for standing, higher reps for seated, two big things that are more important than training both muscles. People who have bad calves, they almost always, like everyone does, do it at the end of their workout.

138:48 >> Uhhuh. >> So it's on leg day and it's at the end. So, they've done squats, they've done deads, they've done leg press, they've done their extensions, they've done their curls, and then with whatever neurological firing they have left, they just start bouncing on their calves and calling it a workout. So, like you are complaining about your complaining category. You're complaining about your calves, but on paper, you're you're depprioritizing them. They're at the end of your session when you're at your most fatigue. If you actually want to grow your calf, it should be at the front of the session. So, understanding the reps to hit, putting it at the front of the session, and then lastly, taking the bounce out of it. So, you should actually just do one second. You're all the way down and stretch. 1 second rep.

139:34 All the way down and stretch controlled. >> Take the elastic out of the movement. Rep. So, it's annoying, but taking there's so much elasticity in calves. Take that out. Do lower reps for standing, higher reps for seated, and put it at the front of your workout. And then do that three days per week. And if that doesn't go your calves, probably nothing will. >> And those pieces of advice were under the umbrella of we're trying to maximize or improve muscle size. This is not what you're recommending for a hockey player.

140:04 No. >> Or anyone else, right? It was really clear that, right? >> Purely aesthetics. Yeah. for aesthetics. I could ask you a million more questions on this one, but we we're probably more than a few hours in at this point. >> Well, can I cut in one real quick? >> Oh, please do. >> Okay. There's a method that I like for developing a muscle group. Okay. and it's hypertrophy clusters. So, with a hypertrophy cluster, and this is everybody should try this. It's phenomenal. I've been in the game 15 years. This works. Pick a weight that you can do for approximately 12 reps.

140:39 And then do six sets of six with 10 seconds in between. That is a hypertrophy cluster. Your first couple sets, they're not going to be too bad. It's going to start to get harder around set three, going to get harder on four, and then five and six are brutal, but you're going to get them done. And in one cluster, you completed 36 reps of something you would have only been able to perform 12 of in a row. This is an incredible hyp hypertrophic training stimulus. It's ridiculously time efficient. You are done that quickly and your muscle group is trashed. Also, since it's 12 RM, it's a very joint friendly way to approach prioritization.

141:20 Sometimes prioritizing a muscle means you're trashing it and kind of messing up your joints at the same time. >> But you have a light load, so it's joint friendly. You are getting 36 reps of something where you would have previously only been able to get 12 of. It's incredibly time efficient for all the people who are very busy out there. And it's a method that I know works, period. And do you remember when I ran you through it for calves?

141:44 >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How'd your calves feel? >> Oh, yeah. They were destroyed. >> Yeah, it works, man. >> Going back to the point of I rarely exclusively train my calves. >> Yeah. >> So, that didn't work. >> And then I just took you right into a hypertrophy cluster. >> Yeah. 100%. >> We're just easing into it. >> Yeah. >> A great great way to ease into novel stimulus, right? 100%. you and I have done that more than a few times.

142:06 >> I'm I'm a huge fan. I think that that that hypertrophy cluster work for a body part that you want to prioritize. it just works and it's something that we can talk about that's a method that people can use instead of just like maybe these amount of reps and this amount of intensity and this amount of like the textbook stuff is important to know but like a method I can write down and go to the gym with and then measure and adjust accordingly is is how you you know you understand something and apply it properly >> I've never done a deep dive but I actually don't know if there's any papers on that method specifically but we care not yeah >> at this point >> there's great there's a lot of papers on cluster training for strength.

142:44 >> Of course. >> Yeah. Yeah. Ex of course I'm not telling you that. But the, you know, two reps, 30 seconds, two reps, 30 seconds, two >> Well, no, there's actually more and more papers on clusters for hypertrophy. >> Okay. >> And it like turns out is the damn near as good as anything else. >> Yeah. >> But this is a cluster in which you actually do an extended break, not a condensed break. So your cluster you described is like a 10-second break.

143:06 >> Yes. These are when you do like say a set of 10, >> you do one rep, take a 20 second break, one rep, take a 20 second break. >> That kind. >> So each individual >> Yeah. >> repetition allows you to load heavier. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got you. >> So you you can lift way more weight. So mechanical tension can be way higher. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And you can but you can still have volume because you're taking a break in between.

143:28 >> Yeah. >> So that is just like that has only come on board though the last like maybe two to three years. >> Yeah. So you're talking about a greater example of you would not have found a study on that >> 3 years ago and it would have been called bro science and non-eidence based >> and now all of a sudden it is and it was not because people had studied it and shown it doesn't work.

143:47 >> Mhm. >> It was simply just hadn't been looked at yet. >> Yeah. And stuff like that exists. A lot of it >> I have to imagine yours would be the exact same. I would I would believe every part of me that if you put that in a well-designed controlled study, >> you would find positive outcomes. >> Oh yeah. >> It just hasn't been done yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it works, man. Yeah, >> I know. We've done it.

144:08 >> Yeah. Yeah. And I fixed people with lagging body parts. It's a hard thing to do. Like people, it's very difficult to like change how someone's look, how someone looks if their genetics don't want to move in that direction. And this is a method that I found does that consistently. >> You said a term destroy or trash the body part. >> So, there's no misinterpretation there. What you're meaning is like you got a good pump, you felt really good, you you trained really hard. Not that you're like, " my knee hurts tomorrow." Like that's not the kind of trash the positive trashing.

144:36 >> No, joint friendly load. >> Yeah, joint friendly load. We like that. >> Where do you stand on proximity to complete failure? So there's the the research and it's quite popular now with you know and this the research is believable that if you get within one to two repetitions >> of failure it's good enough. You'll get equal muscle growth. I think you have >> the bodybuilding side of the equation, which is like, you know, max effort all the time.

145:08 >> Balance that with your personal like I I would never want to go into a training session and go, I'm going to stop two reps. >> Yeah. >> Like I don't feel like I want to do that. >> I know the science. I trust it. >> It's from good scientists in multiple laboratories. It's been replicated a bunch of times >> with different population groups. It >> I totally believe it. >> And I never want to do it.

145:29 >> Yeah. Like I always want to go to the very last possible repetition. >> You're not alone. >> Where do you stand on that that and how do you actually program it? >> You get one bad rep. >> Interesting. >> That's the whole approach. You get one bad rep. So yes, one to two reps in reserve. you're going to get a similar hypertrophy stimulus to if you went to failure. But going to failure can be deletterious to tissue structures beyond just providing an actual clean hypertrophy stimulus. It can hurt some joint structures. People who change their body the best, they aren't the people who train the hardest are the people who can string together the most amount of quality workouts without getting injured. Like that correlation to getting what you want and not getting injured, especially in the hypertrophy world. If you can string together the most amount of quality sessions and not get hurt, that's the person who's getting to the finish line with the best body, you get one bad rep.

146:22 And I would say that to athletes and they get it. So, I'm not talking RI. I'm not talking RP. I'm not talking one to two. I'm not saying like, oh, did did he actually have four left or did he have one left? Who cares? You got one bad rep and then that's when you're done. And that's you're close. And you don't want to go further into poor technique cuz now you now you're just like if you start your bicep and you're nice and clean and then you start swinging. Well, we're not adding any more directed stimulus for hypertrophy and I'm now just moving my low back and my hips to try and keep going. Our quality of stimulus is gone. So, you get one of those. Cuz I actually think that one can be beneficial, by the way.

147:04 >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I I I do. I think that one bad rep is actually enough of a stimulus to allow the body to go, "Oh, shit." Like, this is a new thing. >> You have to also know where the failure wall is. >> Exactly. >> You have to know what that actually look like. >> Yeah. Your last rep can't look like your first. Like, it's it's just not going to. If it does, you got a stimulus, but you didn't maximize that stimulus. And I think the approach you get one bad rep is a phenomenal philosophy to follow to maximize stimulus and minimize injury. I have to get your take on a handful of supplement questions.

147:35 Sticking with this broader theme, we want to be evidence-based, etc. But then where have you seen this deferring? so the first question is outside of the basics, creatine, caffeine, vitamin D, omega-3s you mentioned already, are there any other supplements that come to the top of your list of you've seen them work particularly well? >> Maybe that's in agreement with the research or maybe it's not.

148:05 >> But just what have you found in your experience? >> Some other supplements that Yeah, you mentioned Ashwagandha. Any other ones that popped them up? Yeah. I think that theanine and apagenine both work very well for sleep. I think that 2 to 400 milligram >> very appropo in this room to say that. >> Yeah. I mean whatever. But 200 to 400 milligrams of theanine and 50 milligrams of epigenine work. They just do. they're not they're not the bludgeon hammer like having melatonin. they're just putting your body in a calm state to reduce anxiety and it feels like it reduces I just call it chatter. If you're someone who's a nighttime thinker, nighttime chatter, nighttime anxiety, these things just kind of help you go, okay, what's the 60cond review of my day, >> right?

148:56 You to calm down, truly analyze that. I think that those work well. I think that three grams of glycine is a worthwhile addition to somebody's pre-le stack and it works differently. It's not upregulating melatonin or serotonin or any of that. It's actually effectively helps the body reduce its core temperature. So, a lot of people don't know that it reduces the body's core temperature by increasing blood flow from the central to the periphery. And as you obviously know, one of the things that really supports sleep quality is being a little bit colder. And glycine does that. So, it's a way to like improve sleep quality without trying to sedate you or also trying to just knock you out with with melatonin or change or do something too aggressive to your circadian rhythm.

149:41 So, I think theanine, glycine, and apagenine all in the sleep window are are worth everybody's time. >> What about from energy and recovery in those two broad categories? >> Mhm. >> And if nothing pops out, that's an equally effective answer. >> Yeah. Because like the basics, if you do the basics well, like I talked previously, like if you if you have good magnesium status, if you have a good omega-3 status, you know, your your homocyine is representing the fact that your B vitamin status is is pretty well.

150:10 It's a blood marker. And then if you you are hugging the workout in good hydration practice and carbohydrate availability, these things are are considered basic, but I also consider them well rooted in evidence. Like they're just good to do. If you asked me, I might have a different answer another time, but the ones I want to hang my hat on right now are glycine, theanine, and epigenine. >> Okay, let's fight. >> Okay, >> stimulants and pre-workouts.

150:36 >> Okay, >> give me some guidelines there. Yeah, which ones? Caffeine is the obvious starter there, but there's plenty of things past that. Which ones do you feel comfortable recommending? >> There's a difference here between what you will take personally. >> Yeah. and what you would recommend for people for normal people. >> Yeah. >> So, what are the the rules around stimulants and pre-workouts that people should try to adhere to? And and by rules, I mean the the stimulant itself, >> the dosage, the practices, the packaging, the combinations. just give us your download on best practices for these things. Yeah. Okay. So, first of all, caffeine works for everything. it cancer, pregnancy, fixes all of it.

151:29 >> I mean, dude, you look at endurance, you look at strength, you look at power, you look at anorobic lactic work. you look at reduced pain sensitivity. There's caffeine, caffeine, caffeine, caffeine, caffeine. It's like it's just disclaimer, it works for everything. from a coaching perspective, I don't like a lot of it before leg day. So, a lot of people they'll do 300 milligram. What? >> Yeah. >> Really? >> Blasphemy, right? >> Is this the Did you say that wrong? You clearly said that the opposite.

151:57 >> Yeah. No. >> I think a lot of people reduce training quality that way. >> I really do. If if you if you can you can have say two 300 milligs of caffeine. Whatever your sensitivity is, I don't care. It's not about the dose. You could do that for chest and back, shoulders, arms, this kind of thing. And the nature of those muscle groups doesn't increase your heart rate that high. But when you train legs, your heart rate goes really high. And I actually have felt and I tell my clients, do not take a lot of caffeine before leg day because it can reduce performance because your perceived rate of exertion is way too high because of how high your heart rate is from training legs with that much caffeine.

152:32 >> It's throw up city for me. It's 100% guarantee I will throw up. >> Yep. And people just they're tired sooner. And that's the thing that'll happen, man. Like you lots of times like if you are squatting there's a lot of times where your cardiovascular system is why you're failing and not your quads or your glutes like you're you're tired. >> I can't not throw up. >> And a lot of it like you're you're I don't I don't like a lot of caffeine before leg day. You're going to centrally fatigue before your muscles fatigue. Yeah.

153:00 >> So the stimulus actually has nothing to do with your legs now. Even though it's leg day, >> you're going to overcook and you won't realize it till it's too late. >> You're a toddler who doesn't realize you're super hungry and hot. Yeah. >> And then it's too late. >> And then and then like the the cycle of that is like, "Oh, I didn't perform well again. I should take more next time. I should take more next time." And and that's actually the reason why you're not performing well.

153:19 >> And that's why you get 1,000 milligs of a hit before you go next time. >> Yeah. And and your legs aren't growing. So, >> okay, that was really helpful. I don't know if I've ever heard anybody say that. What about different types? Which ones do you like >> caffeine? >> no. Even past caffeine other things in a pre-workout. Well, I think it's important to think back to concepts because for an ingredient to be considered a pre-workout ingredient, it needs to be active and efficacious within the pre-workout window. So, you'll see creatine monohydrate phenomenal supplement. It is considered everybody like it. It is a foundational.

153:55 I think a lot of people should be on it. It's not a pre-workout ingredient. It's not the the benefits from creatine come from muscle saturation of creatine increasing phosphor creatine storage and availability for when you want to use it. It's not effective in the pre-workout window that comes from long-term saturation. So that's not a pre-workout ingredient. Beta alanine, exact same thing. Beta alanine increases carnosine storage which helps improve your ability to handle metabolic byproducts. Doesn't do that in the pre-workout window. That is another storage and saturation type of thing. So you'll see creatine and betalanine in a lot of pre-workout products that make your pre-workout more expensive, but it's not actually e efficacious in the pre-workout window.

154:36 >> In the case of beta alanine, you will feel something. >> Yeah. >> Which is a big part of the marketing play. Like we you want to feel something. >> You'll feel it. Yeah. You'll feel it, but it's not actually mechanistically effective. >> Which is not to say it is harmful or bad to take pre-workout, but what your point you're making is it's not independently beneficial taking it pre-workout. Correct. >> You could have taken it at any point.

154:57 Yes. >> And it wouldn't have mattered. >> But citruline is so citrine is something that increases blood flow in the pre-workout window. 6 to 8 g of citruline with your caffeine in the pre-workout window. Those are both effective. And I know I said theine before bed last time, but theine helps offset a lot of the over stimulation from caffeine. So people who do get too stimulated from it, but want the benefits of it can stack theine at like a 2:1 ratio. So if you're going to have 100 millig of caffeine, have 200 millig of theine if you going that way.

155:28 >> Yes. Yeah. Go up go up that. I like it the opposite. I know some people say in the other direction. I don't. I think that kind of leads you to a path where you're going to be having too much and the the balance just doesn't seem to work in my practice, but I like theineine. I like caffeine. I like citrine. All in the pre-workout window. a lot of people don't know there's something called capsiz. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's effective in a pre-workout window.

155:52 >> Yeah. Exactly. >> It's effective in reducing pain perception. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So your your ability to perceive pain is reduced, so therefore you can go further in your training. >> So it's a it's like a weird stack, but everybody else is throwing in a lot of things in there that either a don't have a lot of evidence or b aren't actually pre-workout ingredients. And if you were just wellfed and your glycogen was stored and then you get some increased blood flow and some increased cognitive and neurological benefits from the caffeine and theine some reduced pain perception from the wild capsy that actually has meta analysis data on it then you're in a good spot.

156:28 >> Neutropics into that cocktail at all. neutropics based on your own experiments and your own internal like N equals one feedback because you have like there's some research on pre-workout caffeine and it like connected to growth hormone and stuff but I think that a lot of that is just silly. It's just within a physiological range to act like that's going to mean something in the end is I think crazy. But it does make a lot of people feel more focused. So, I'll actually use C alpha GPC in the pre-workout window if someone lacks mind muscle connection.

157:02 That's when it makes more sense. So, we're not going to do it for your running workout, but if you have a real hard time connecting with your delts, I think 3 to 900 millig of alpha GBC, which is a lot, but >> typically what I've seen in practice, another thing you won't find in research, 900's typically the ceiling, and 1,200 sends people to the bathroom. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. But you could you could work with your dose. 3 69 is typically where you're going to roll. And that's great to you know improve cognition and mind muscle connection in that window.

157:33 >> Are you altering the citrine caffeine or beta alanine or anything else based upon the type of training outside of the obvious? If you're going to do a 30 minute recovery cycle, my assumption is you're not taking anything. >> Nah, nothing. Yeah. Nothing. But do you like to tinker with those things based upon what you're trying to get out of the session or for the most part do you find outside of the one also example you gave of like hey don't maybe sealing these things on a leg day.

158:00 >> Yeah. >> Is there any other >> not it's it's pretty applicable. Yeah >> it's pretty it's pretty applicable to if it's going to be endurance I mean blood flow and some mild stimulation is going to help. I think the one I would remove is the neutropic >> side of things. The neutropic is the one that I probably would remove. It's fun sometimes to have a neutropic before cardio if you want to listen to podcast and be dialed in. That's just a for fun one. That's just not what you're going to read in any type of study or something like that. but yeah, I think that they're they're pretty applicable stimulus wide.

158:31 You said before recovery session, I actually want to get something out. one thing that I do to improve the recovery of my clients is I give them a recovery menu instead of a recovery prescription. So, as since adherence is the number one thing that drives results and nobody gets results unless they recover, then you need to be adherent to your recovery protocol. But people usually treat recovery as separate from the program. But I want recovery as part of the program. Your recovery session is as important as your chest and back day.

159:05 Your recovery session is as important as your leg day. These these are part of the program and skipping your recovery is skipping a day in the gym. You need to treat it like that. And most people skip recovery. so the way in which I like to program for recovery is I give them a menu and then they can choose which modality they want to do that day. So on that menu will be a mobility session, it will be meditation, it will be go for a walk in nature, it will be do breath work. And what I found is people are way more adherent to the recovery side of the equation because they're not doing something that they don't want to do. And you don't get recovery from doing something you don't want to do anyways. Cuz if I'm sitting there and I'm trying to meditate and I'm like, I don't meditate right now. This is ridiculous. Like you're just kind of like, you're not recovering.

159:49 >> No, you're not. You're mad. You sat down and got mad for 15 minutes and and wanted to get back to work. But if you have something to choose from that you want to do that will get you in a parasympathetic state, that menu way enhances recovery because it's adherable. >> Are you prescribing one of those per session? So I want one recovery session every day we train >> or is it less? >> Way less. In my world, I'll just do one on your non-training days.

160:17 >> Okay. >> Just way less. Yeah. >> One thing you're asking for. >> Yeah. Yeah. I get like adjacent recovery sort of by doing step counts. So I get people moving. I get the blood flow. I get them not sitting for long periods of time. So on training days or non-training days, you're hitting your step count. So even on the training days, there's something happening there. But I really just want you to get your training done and leave. Do your direct adaptation. And then on the non-training days, pick one on the recovery menu. I try to do more than that. People just don't really do it.

160:43 >> Yeah. It's a tough one. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess in that example, one is better than zero. >> Yes. >> Because if you don't, you're just going to get none. Yep. So unrealistic. You've been really kind here of sharing your thoughts on things that are potentially outside of the evidence base window, right? Both as a practitioner and just tinkering with what works and all that stuff. Can I push you a little further? >> Let's do it.

161:10 >> All right. I I won't hold you to the scientific evidence here, but peptides, these are encroaching on the performance world, right? >> Yeah, >> everyone is aware. We if you're a professional athlete or under any sort of testing like that, most likely >> the the common classic peptides that we hear of are are a no-go for us. >> Mhm. >> Legally. >> Mhm. >> Theoretically. Outside of that, there's a whole different ballgame.

161:41 >> Yeah. >> So, how are you currently thinking about some of these these classic peptides and we'll start maybe in the professional realm and then venture into the where you can use them. >> I won't call that legally but we'll say it's not against the sports rules cuz they're not playing a sport over there. >> I assume your athletes are asking you about peptides and my assumption is that's the actual question like yo man what's with these peptides?

162:08 >> What about this? about that and it's not just athletes, it's everybody. >> What kind of questions are you being asked and how are you handling those? >> It is open-ended like peptides. Heard about this on a podcast. What you think? And it's from people like my dad has asked me that. >> Yeah. Like dude, it's not just athletes. Like everybody knows about peptides now. So, I think it's actually prudent of a coach to learn about them because I I as much as you think it's malpractice to prescribe them, which it is, I think it's also malpractice to blindfold yourself and ignore your client if they're choosing to do it. like some there's some sort of surveillance process that has to take place and some sort of knowledge that is you are behooved to learn more about this stuff because it's coming to you from the people you care about. We've been in areas like this before where a new thing is hitting the industry and it's very powerful and a lot of people are screwing themselves up. Like there's about 15 no longer at least 15 years ago when pro hormones hit the market and a pro hormone isn't an actual hormone from a molecular perspective. So then it wasn't technically legal to illegal to sell. So you were having real pro hormones on the shelves of supplement stores that teenagers could buy that anybody could buy.

163:24 >> My friend at 15 was buying andro. >> Yeah. >> Like he had no idea. He's just like I bought creatine then I got this other thing androin dio something and I'm like >> yeah androstein dion. >> How would we know? We had no way to know that GNC just like straight up got it. >> Yeah. Meth M1T, methyl one testosterone. So like what a pro hormone is for the listeners that don't know is it's not molecularly a hormone in the bottle, but then it converts to one in your body. So that means it's legal to sell because they never wrote down that it's illegal to sell that that is the the thing, but then it converts that thing in your body. These were very liver toxic. They were very powerful. They're selling them to anybody.

163:58 >> There you can still do this. They're ones in the market right now. Yeah, >> for the most part you can buy DHA. >> Yeah. Well, you can get Oh, DHEA. >> DHEA. >> You can get DHA. Oh, that's a good point, >> right? Like that's a that's a pro hormone right now that you do not need an RX4. >> Like it's right there. >> You can just get it. >> Yeah. Like Okay, great. Go ahead.

164:18 >> Yeah, it is powerful. but yeah, dude, like this stuff. So, we need to learn from the past that happened in in our lifespan. A lot of people had medical emergencies and a lot of changes and a lot of regulations came into play and now almost all of them are gone. Like those ones that are extremely they're gone. They're still available in the underground but they are gone from the overground. And so like learning from them like yo if there's one thing we should probably learn from this phase of time is patience. let's just see what happens. Let's be patient. a lot of these things aren't controlled.

164:50 They're clearly powerful, but we don't know what's happening with them in a lot of ways. So, me as a coach, I need to learn about this stuff. a to see if it's safe or b if it's worth doing. There there could there's depending on like the situation and the context and that client's risk assessment. Maybe they don't care at all. Then you you should know these things. But knowing them kind of unfolds concepts. You should a understand mechanism and b measure and adjust accordingly. Yeah, >> like mechanistic language and being able to measure what's happening inside the body are the two things that need to be at the front of your mind. And I think a the compound called SS31 is a is a good example of something that sounds amazing that probably isn't. So SS31 and it sounds amazing because it has real clinical data in humans and a known mechanism. Dude, if you want to really excite a biohacker, tell them it's got real human clinical data. It has a known mechanism and then just whisper the word mitochondria.

166:03 >> Mitochondria. And they're like, what? Nothing gets them more pumped up than something about mitochondria that is human data. What that yo that's all I need. >> People already just stopped and they're buying. >> I don't care what this dude's about to say. I'm in. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but here's the deal. You you go into this research and it's medically approved. So it's like whoa. And what's it medically approved for? Bar syndrome and mitochondrial myopathy. So what SS31 does, SS31 stabilizes something called cardiolipin inside of mitochondria. And this stuff really matters. Like there's not just mitochondria in your body. the size matters, the membrane health matters, the stability of the electron transport chain matters. These things all really matter. And cardiolippin plays a really important role in the stability of the electron transport chain. that cardiolipin and the stability of the electron transport chain becomes completely destabilized if you have bar syndrome. Bar syndrome is a genetic mutation in something called TAZ. You have a TAZ mutation that destabilizes your mitochondria.

167:13 SS31 goes in there and legitimately stabilizes it. >> Yeah, >> that's precision medicine. Okay, >> so the human research is in those medical conditions >> is in medical conditions and then if you look at the rat research on it, there's actually performance improvement. Now, it's funny if you you look at the rat research, this is this is awesome. So the rat research, it's like it it there's fatigue resistance benefits. There's allout endurance benefits. You're getting these real real benefits in rats. And then even when you read the rat research, it was only beneficial for older rats but not in young muscle.

167:48 >> And so those things that are quoted, it was only it had no effect in young muscle even of rats. And then you bring it into the into the human world and it's very effective at improving mitochondrial stability, HP production in people with bar syndrome. >> That's great. >> But that's different than saying, will a healthy active person improve endurance from this? Improve V2 max. That's a completely completely different question. And in the human world, there is zero performance data. Not even one.

168:19 Not even one. We have human clinical data. We have a known mechanism. And we have a thing that's really sexy to talk about with absolutely zero performance data outputs from it. So we don't have this endurance bump. We don't have this V2. We don't have these things that you can connect mitochondria to if you just stay in the world of the mechanism. One of the scariest things in this industry is a charismatic mechanism guy, man. That that is like a that is someone who's who's pretty dangerous in a lot of ways cuz he'll talk all about the mechanism. But then when it comes to peptide, you're like, okay, it does this mitochondrial effect for who? At what dose? What does that mean? And relative to what? Because something else that improves mitochondrial health is aerobic exercise. anorobic exercise, substrate availability, the boring stuff that does this, but it's not an amazing cardipin stabilizer with this known mechanism. So then I'm looking at this and I see this mechanism and I see this data and then I'm like like how am I watching a 60cond Instagram video of a guy going bananas about this stuff? That's crazy to me.

169:27 And I think all the way back too like okay this guy came to me with an endurance goal. Was his constraint destabilized cardioipin or did he need to sleep better, reduce his stress, improve saturate availability, improve training quality? It's almost certainly he didn't go to the gym that day and went cardipin's messed up today. Man, I just wish there was a solution. It's just not there. Yeah. >> Okay. So like understanding a mechanism and then understanding where it applies is is so important to understand concepts like that the concept overhead is understand the mechanism and then if that person's going to do it anyway you should know about it but we're going to know about it by doing blood work.

170:09 >> So that is surveillance. I want to measure what's happening to keep you safe. If you're going to do this no matter what and hey I want to measure this if something cool happens. >> Yeah. >> Maybe something cool happens. >> You sign a waiver. Go ahead. Yeah. >> Exactly. you made this decision, dude. I just want to make sure that we're we're we know what's happening. >> Yeah. >> So, it's just one example of a framework for people to have. And it's not to say all peptides are bad. There's there's some out there that actually I've seen work well >> and in in the scene, but that is one where I think acts as a good teaching tool for a framework that people can use moving forward.

170:42 >> As far as I understand, we have very limited health and safety data on SS31 as well. Like we don't even know. >> Yeah. So, it could be totally fine. Could be inert. We have no idea. Yeah, >> that's the risk you're running there. As comfortable as you are behind the scenes, >> from the industry, not you per se, but from the industry. >> Yeah. >> What other ones have you been hearing, seeing that you're more optimistic about that maybe don't have because for the most part, people know the status of peptides. They know the lack of research.

171:10 >> Yes. >> Great. Got it. >> Okay. Yeah. >> But just what are you hearing? which ones are you like maybe there's something here. People are tend to talking about it more. seems all anecdotal data, which is not how we do science. >> Yeah, >> but that said, >> thank you for all of the disclaimers. Some people will still not take those into consideration. >> Understood. And we'll still get in trouble for this, but go ahead.

171:30 >> Yeah, here. Well, let's do it. Matzi, I I think I have seen people get a positive benefit from that without a reduction in their blood work from a health perspective. And what's happening with MC C is you again you're back into the mitochondria. You're you're back into the electron transport chain. And I think that there's probably else something valuable to learn here. So for the users that aren't familiar because Andy is familiar with the electron transport chain. You've got this tube.

172:00 It looks something like this. And then this tube produces ATP. Produces energy out this side of it. Now a lot of cool stuff happens in here. Okay, we want to drive fatty acid substrates into here and metabolize into here in order to get ATP and get energy out on that end. Now, I'm going to explain the mechanism here because it's really important to teach a couple of things in the end. All right, so electron transport chain substrates coming in NAD+ which a lot of people take. NAD+ is like this fuel injector that kicks this process off. That's where it lives and exists. In order for this process to happen effectively, we need vitamin B3, B6, B9, and B12. And we also need iron and magnesium. Okay, so now we've got our substrates. We've got NAD+ kicking this process off. We need B36, 912, magnesium, and iron for something to smoothly go through here.

173:04 And the vehicle that what's going to have it's going to take this process through is CoQ10. So, a lot of people are familiar with CoQ10, with the B vitamins, magnesium, iron, with NAD+. They're familiar with these things. This is where they're going to live in the electron transport chain. Okay. On top of this is this master switch called AMPK. You're going to turn AMPK on and you're going to activate this this electron transport chain. You're going to you're going to activate this process.

173:30 MCI activates AMPK. So, that's where that lives. With MC, you are turning on this AMPK. This AMPK then is going to shuttle more substrates than they otherwise would have NAD is going to process this fuel injection thing to go through 3 B36 912 iron magnesium going out the other end more energy more substrate use and improve blood sugar control through performance a lot of these things are happening in the underground world of it but something to learn from that is like number one if you hear people talk about Matsi they'll say pre take preworkout it's dope Okay, you this is the worst. There's the worst advice in the peptide world. It's like and then you'll be like, "Oh, what does it do?"

174:14 >> It increase your energy, but how? >> Yeah, just reinccreases your energy. Try it. Try it. >> You don't even know what it does, dude. >> Lord help me. So that you get crazy advice, but that is the mechanism at which this thing actually flows through. But then it also that is like a good clean example of why you talk to one person. I tried this peptide and it didn't do anything for me. You talked to another person and it worked wonders.

174:39 Well, this this amati was actually one step. You still needed B3 69 and 12. You still needed iron, magnesium. You still needed these all these. So, if one thing works a little bit better for one person than another. And it's because you can't out peptide a bad diet. You can't out hormone a bad diet. You're never going to cheat physiology. Physiology gives it away. No free lunches. We know this. Okay. So these things need to be present in order to actually optimize the thing that you're doing.

175:08 >> Yeah, this is very similar to the story of things like carnitine >> as a supplement. So in theory, carnitine is a rate limiting step towards fat oxidation. >> That said, >> if you're trying to ramp up fat oxidation via any other mechanism, but you're always consistently gated by carnitine. >> Yeah. Then like those those things will but then that same pre-workout or whatever fat mobilization strategy you have in somebody who's not limited in their carnitine we'll see a huge effect same exact scenario here right where if that is actually not the rate limiting step then you'll see this mix of results because there some people who have that or who don't will see benefit or not right amk being a master energy regulation switch >> be easily ramped up with any form of exercise.

175:59 >> Mhm. >> Easily ramped up with a thousand other things. >> You don't need peptides to do these things. >> Nutrition, it's what it's paying attention. It's literally trying to adjust energy regulation. That's the thing it does >> and pays attention to. So, another example of something we could probably do an entire set of podcasts. >> Yeah. Rea tide is out there. There's a lot of there's a there's a lot of >> All right. Okay. I can't give give me give me some thoughts on Retta. That's the one that's coming in hot and it's coming in >> very it's coming in with the data that you want to see on it. There's history to it like you first came out with GLP1 glucagon like peptide 1 and that's ompic.

176:36 >> So that was the one that's just hammering appetite suppression hammering it and then the progression from that was your GLP2 which is your true and now you're getting your your GLP and your GIP. So you're attacking appetite suppression through two different ways. is now you're actually you're talking you're talking to the hypothalamus to increase satiation but then you're also reducing rate of gastric clearance. So food's actually just sitting there longer which signals satiation. So you get these two this is the progression and now GLP3 which is redatride that is the latest evolution of this where now it's glucagon has been added and glucagon that's the only one now that actually increases energy expenditure.

177:17 >> It's like the inverse of insulin. >> Yes. >> It's like exact opposite. Right. So you're increasing energy expenditure and in human data it's been demonstrated to produce liver fat up to 83%. >> So this is one where like that's the sleeping giant right now that's going to be approved and regulated and that's that's the one but like the history from GLP1 GLP 2 to GLP3 and that's like what you want to see. It's not like some more underground less proven stuff that >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So I just been seeing that in the scene work for a lot of people and I think a lot of people be interested in the MSI thing.

177:51 The REA the where I see it going is a little bit dare I say more obvious. I I think that one the data is moving in the direction that you would like that people want to see done actual trials that people want to see done and is probably something we'll see more heavily regulated in the very near future and not just on randomarmacies online. there. There's a nonzero chance that thing really explodes. Yeah. >> Like as a very standard form of care.

178:16 >> Yeah. >> even in the evidence-based conservative crowd, that's reasonable. We're not there. >> The real risk of all this is that it has negative side effects on things you can't quantify. >> Yes, >> that's the problem. So the the worst scenario is you just take it and see. A better approach is take it at least measure something. Measure your resting heart rate. measure blood work. >> Past that though is we still have to acknowledge the things we don't even know to measure.

178:47 >> Right? Just because one mechanism happens here it doesn't mean another mechanism doesn't happen over here >> and we don't know like if you don't know to measure it >> we don't know and that's the reality of most these things. We actually don't know where the side effects will go. >> Therefore we don't even know what to watch >> right >> or measure and that has to be acknowledged >> as a genuine risk. And if we pay any attention to human history, >> it's a guarantee one of these will land with a really big risk.

179:13 >> Yeah, >> it's going to be there. >> It's always happened. >> Yeah, >> we just don't know which one and where that's going to be. >> Nope. >> Buyer beware. >> That's your own risk. It's your own risk. I recommend learning the mechanisms. I recommend learning the doses. I recommend measuring every step of the way everything that you can. but ultimately, I'm glad you said all that because that the risk onus is on someone else. So, I'm just trying to educate people on what I think are modern and popular topics that probably need a little bit of more conceptual knowledge added to it instead of people just saying to go get it.

179:49 >> Well, people are talking, so you you have to have a discussion or else we're all living in the dark, which is worse. >> Yeah. >> Because then the the people are forced to make decisions with less information. So I I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. >> Yeah. >> In that particular case. So man, you've been incredibly gracious. we we covered a lot of stuff. I pulled you in tons of directions, which is a difficult thing to do to cover this many topics in one sitting at a both a really science and evidence-based level as well as just so many practical take-home tips and strategies and useful information. I can't thank you enough for coming all the way out here for sitting in the chair. Long overdue.

180:29 >> Yeah. and and it's just so great to have you here. >> Thank you, brother. This is a blast. Thank you for joining for today's episode. My goal, as always, is to share exciting scientific insights that help you perform at your best. If the show resonates with you and you want to help ensure this information remains free and accessible to anyone in the world, there are a few ways that you can support. First, you can subscribe to the show on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. And on Apple and Spotify, you can leave us up to a five-star review. Subscribing and leaving a review really does help us a lot. Also, please check out our sponsors. The show would not exist without them and their exceptional products and services. Finally, you can share today's episode with a friend who you think would enjoy it. If you have any content questions or suggestions, please put those in the comments section on YouTube. I really do try my best to read them all and to see what you have to say. I use my Instagram and ex-profiles also exclusively for scientific communication. So, those are great places to follow along for more learning. My handle is Dr. Andy Galpin on both platforms. We also have an email newsletter that distills all of our episodes in the most actionable takeaways. We have newsletters on how to improve fitness in V2 max, how to build muscle and strength, and much more. To subscribe to the newsletter, just go to performpodcast.com and click newsletter. It's completely free and we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you for listening and never forget in the famous words of Bill Bowererman, if you have a body, you are an athlete.