Episode 14: Jake Doleschal - Training Fatigue, Recovery, and the Smarter Way to Build Muscle

0:02 What's going on everyone? Welcome back to Aiming Up with Kenneth and Trey with us today. We have a close friend and mentor of mine, Jake Dlesau on with us today. Going to be a cool one for all you guys. We're just going to head straight into it. get to know Jake briefly and then we'll just go straight into training, some supplementation, quick Q&A at the end, and then close it out. How's everything going, man? Thanks for coming on, >> mate. It is going well. I'm excited for this call. Thank you guys for making this time work. I don't know what time it is for you, but I know anytime I talk to anyone on that side of the phone, it takes it's the time zones are not friendly. So, this is a nice time for me and I've got my morning coffee. So, I'm looking forward to our chat.

0:41 >> Of course. Of course. jeez. I guess start you explain who you are. Talk about who you are to whatever you want to do. You can go as long or as short as you want. That's totally your call. So, whenever I listen to podcasts, this is a bit of the podcast that I find really boring because I'm like, I don't actually care about who this person is. I just want to know what you know. But at the same time, you guys don't know if I'm worth listening to.

1:07 So, I'm going to try to keep it short and if I talk for too long, then just shut me down. But basically, I started out this whole health lifting kind of journey honestly cuz I was just super interested in myself, right? So, I was studying all the nutrition certifications and training certifications and I was studying sport at university and I wasn't intending on doing any of this stuff for work. I just freaking loved it. And then eventually I sort of segueed into it. There was a whole series of events that led to that.

1:34 And ultimately what I found is I had loved ones who they were going to the best coaches that I knew. And I mean like people, you know, I would travel the country, you know, with friends and family to go see these people speak. Freaking amazing coaches. that I still look up to today. And they just weren't getting results. And that sort of started to spark something in me where it's like, hey, maybe there's stuff that's a little bit more complex to this like health and fitness thing than just like doing the right thing in the gym.

2:00 And it kind of just boiled in the back of my mind and I let it go for a little while. And then I got a job at what I would sort of constitute as the best gym in the country. So I mean, even how that happened was pretty funny. Basically, I was working at a little, you know, big sort of gym. little big that doesn't make sense in a sort of big box gym just locally and I was a bit bored of the types of clients I was getting people weren't really taking their fitness seriously and I was like man what's the best gym in the country and I started like scouting out and I found this gym interstate who had a really sort of high global reputation and long story short I got to the point where I did the interviews and whatever else and eventually they were like okay we'll give you a job but you have to be here in 72 hours like dude I live like 12 hours away I have two jobs here. Anyway, I packed the car the following morning and drove up and that's how I ended up working there. But being in that situation was really interesting cuz we were the most expensive gym in the country and that means that people who'd gone to every other gym, every other PT coach, etc., and hadn't got results, they thought we could do that. And so I'm getting all these clients who, you know, some of them are competitors, you know, physique competitors. Some of them are just, you know, business people or or moms who just haven't seen results.

3:18 And I'm like, why is this working for half of you? And for half of you, it's not working. And the half of you it's not working for, you're also telling me that you've got period pain or you're telling me you've got this chronic fatigue thing going on or you're not sleeping or whatever. And I started to connect some of the dots and I was like, "Okay, the people I know in my life aren't seeing results. They've got these digestive issues. They've got these hormonal issues. The people I'm seeing in the gym that aren't getting results.

3:41 You guys have the same stuff going on. Okay, there's something deeper going on here." So that led me down the blood work path, which you know, obviously you've gone down that rabbit hole as well. And that opens up a whole lot of doors and you realize once you go down blood work, you're like, "How did I ever coach without this? How did I It's like a like a what would you say? I mean, it's it's like just looking inside someone literally and seeing exactly what's going on, right? It's like before this we're just stumbling in the dark hoping that these generic protocols are working and now with blood work everything just opens up. So, that's kind of the path I took. and then like I said, I had sort of friends and family who, you know, they they were struggling with their health. And so I I sort of dived really deep into learning about stool testing and and blood work.

4:28 And one of our joint mentors, David O'Brien, I found Dave and he helped one of my family members. And then I started finding out that like these people I was seeing in the gym, well, they all knew people who were unwell and they didn't necessarily want to lose weight. They just wanted to feel better. And then suddenly I got all these people coming to the gym who don't really want to train. They've just got, you know, chronic endometriosis pain or whatever.

4:55 And that was interesting as well cuz then for a few years I kind of turned into like a pseudo naturopath and people were coming to me just because of these health issues. And I'm like, well hang on, I kind of want to get you guys lifting, but you guys don't even care about that. You just want to feel better. And it it took me a while to work out how do I combine these two things again. So, I feel like I finally have found this equilibrium over the last few years where I get to I I had the pleasure, I guess, of working with people who do want to be in the gym, who do want to, you know, be at the peak of of, you know, physical capabilities.

5:27 you know, maybe they're athletes, maybe they just want to feel strong, look good, but also optimize their health or or reclaim their health in some cases. You know, some of these people are simply too unwell to actually properly lift. And so that can be an opportunity to get them back in the gym as well. That was a long- winded explanation of who I am and why I do what I do, but hopefully gives a little bit of context.

5:51 >> Yeah. No, I appreciate it, man. >> That was great. Can I ask one question? >> Yeah. >> What was the name of the gym? >> it was Clean Health Fitness Institute. >> Oh, is that what it was? It was clean. Okay, makes sense. I connected. >> So, they don't do inerson stuff anymore, but they're massive educator online. >> Yeah. Yeah, Kev, if you were to look it up, it's really big. >> Really? I'll have to check it out. Is that if that's in Australia, I imagine.

6:19 >> Okay, >> it is in Australia. So, they a global educator now. So, they they are one of the biggest global educators for like fitness courses, nutrition courses, even like >> yoga, pilates, all that like everything basically. They the whole fitness world. >> Yeah. Cool. >> Yeah. No, I think you did a good job covering it. I mean, let's just dive straight in the topic. I mean, I just want to talk training. I mean, >> I can talk blood work. I mean, dude, we can talk blood work all day, but I think more people need to talk about training.

6:52 >> I agree. I I think when I look back at like myself, and I'm sure Kenneth, you can relate. Like, we both came from being knucklehead bodybuilders and just like, how can we keep people from dying with the PDS and stuff that we're doing? And then we found a functional health or whatever you want to call it. then it was very focused on that. Now it's a matter of finding out how to blend the two. And I do feel like working with you like both coaching and then mentoring over the years that you've found like a really good balance of it where even with those clients and you and I have talked about it. Even with the ones that just want to feel better, you've found ways okay well how can we build in training because there is a big part of that. It's not just like feel good.

7:31 There is some other components here. So we can just head straight into training and just talk about exa exhaustion recovery and that type of stuff. So when you're talking about exhaustion and be able to recover and stuff like how would you describe it? Because a lot of people just like oh I'm just tired or I'm sore or etc etc. Like how would you describe that when you're when we start diving into this topic? >> Yeah. So when I had a lot of these people come into me who had you know health issues going on chronic fatigue whatever I and a lot of gut issues you know a lot of people might have like IBS symptoms IBD conditions whatever then what I started doing is trying to work out well what is what's going to be the limitation or the bottleneck with these guys in the gym and sometimes it's simply that they don't have the energy to get out of bed right but I mean when you get someone who you know they're kind of okay they're kind of functional they can do sort of normal day-to-day activities but they go to the gym and they're like, "Man, it wipes me out for like a week." Yeah. I was like, "Well, what is it that we can pull back on?"

8:31 Not necessarily to like, you know, reduce the efficacy of these sessions, but what's the superolous stuff here which is just being added in that's having more of a recovery toll or debt. And going down that path, I found out that, okay, this is the stuff, this is the kind of training that works for these clients and makes sense. And then I stood back and looked at it. I'm like, but hang on. This is the exact same stuff that makes sense if you don't have gut issues because ultimately we've lived in a period of time post I would I what I find really interesting is looking at what bodybuilders did before anabolics were introducing bodybuilding and post introduction of anabolics which really is about 1960 onwards. What we find is this increasing focus on fatigue and in a bad way I would say where people think fatigue is good for hypertrophy. You fatigue a muscle. you do short rest periods, you know, metabolites cause hypertrophy. All these what I would say myths behind how hypertrophy works. And when you have these clients who are who have this bottleneck of health and and energy and whatever else that's affecting how they can train in the gym, what you realize is all these fatigue mechanisms are working against them. And so once we start looking at how do we pair back these fatigue mechanisms then what we basically what we end up trying to achieve is how do we get the highest hypertrophy stimulus how do we get the highest muscle building stimulus with as little fatigue as possible and I guess the point I'm trying to make is then when we look at people who aren't limited by the health what should the goal in the gym be well we want to achieve the highest stimulus possible and fatigue inhibits that stimulus so we want to achieve the highest at the highest stimulus possible with the smallest amount of fatigue possible. So ultimately I think these two things should look exactly the same. Okay, there might be some slight sort of blurring around the edges where you might have someone who's in a very, you know, healthy state, maybe a younger, you know, bodybuilder, whatever, where they might be able to tolerate like higher amounts of stimulus and recover, but ultimately the their goal should be the same. Now, I've used that term fatigue. you use a couple of terms there. You know, this can be a little bit confusing. Essentially, when we're talking about fatigue from a exercise perspective, so when talking about people in the gym or just any form of exercise, fatigue in this context is not defined as a feeling. You don't feel fatigued. You don't feel tired. These not synonymous. What fatigue is is a reduction in your performance. Okay? And now if you want to get really technical, it's a temporary and reversible reduction in performance caused by a previous exercise bout. Okay, so technically speaking, there are things that can cause your performance to go down that are not exercise related.

11:19 That's slightly different categories. It's sort of we can kind of lump it in together for all intents and purposes, but essentially fatigue is a reduction in performance. Does that make sense? >> Yes. So let me just explore that a little bit further. So if we've got this reduction in performance ultimately in the context of a gym setting that reduction in performance is going to usually equal not always but usually equal reduction in motor unit recruitment reduction in the amount of muscle fibers that are activated. And if we don't activate the muscle fiber it's not going to experience a growth stimulus. So fatigue is ultimately in that sense I mean I don't want to be too black and white but ultimately it's bad because it's going to cause us to activate fewer muscle fibers therefore provide a hypertrophy stimulus to fewer muscle fibers and then on the on the back end of that fatigue can accumulate over time. So we can actually have central nervous system fatigue that builds from session to session and over time we'll be recruiting fewer and fewer muscle fibers. So that kind of goes to your point you you brought up around recovery. And so recovery ultimately is are we able to get back to our baseline or even higher than our baseline before that next training session. And if you've got someone who's got health issues, gut issues, they've got you know, maybe there's nutrient deficiencies going on, maybe there's higher baseline levels of inflammation going on, they've got higher levels of endotoxins in the gut, in the blood, then their ability to get back to that baseline, a it's going to be hindered.

12:55 So, we don't want to dig a bigger recovery hole cuz it's going to take them longer to get back anyway, and b all that stuff that's circulating in the blood, the endotoxins, inflammation, etc., that itself is going to cause reduction in performance. It's going to have essentially it's going to cause like neuroinflammation or it's going to increase their perception of effort essentially. We can talk more about that. But ultimately these people are at a disadvantage anyway. So the last thing we want to do is suddenly throw, you know, German volume training or gr, you know, eight sets of eight or 10 sets of 10 or whatever and cause a whole stack more muscle damage, which is ultimately going to do the same thing these people are experiencing dayto-day, which is have more inflammatory cytoines in the blood. Does that make sense? Or if I kind of lost >> No, it's 100%. Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying. We know it's like >> I'm just thinking about the the reason why I'm kind of quiet is I'm in the middle of prep for bodybuilding competition.

13:56 >> Yeah. >> That's also why I'm quiet. I'm just, you know, like I'm I'm tired. But but but ultimately like I'm thinking about what you're saying in relation to my training and then simultaneously I have a client who works for a company called active life and they do it's essentially movement or exercise is the way they heal people of pain and essentially her training training knowledge and my functional health knowledge have sort of collided in the last 5 weeks. So, I'm healing her gut.

14:43 I'm fixing her hormones. >> I'm teaching her about all these things that she doesn't really have any, you know, knowledge in it around. >> Mhm. And so when I when we first had the consult, I I heard in in the initial meeting that her knowledge of training far surpassed mine. >> Mhm. >> Now granted, a lot of my knowledge comes from various different places, but I would say the way that I kind of build out training now is from Scott Stevenson. So, and that's just from reading his book. And it's not always that particular style training for a person depending on where they are on the spectrum of health. Kind of like what you're saying, >> but that's sort of my base my baseline.

15:35 >> When she and I started talking, I let her give me her current program. Then what I essentially did was just reduce volume. But even when I did that, her progression in getting her health fixed was not good. >> And essentially, I pulled her out of the gym for oh man, it was a week. And >> what I saw, interestingly enough, was after 3 days, her blood glucose normalized.

16:12 And then two days later, her blood glucose skyrocketed because she was like, "I'm not moving my body. I'm going crazy." >> And so I said, "Okay, well, let's think about how can we do something different." And before I could wrap my mind around what I wanted to do, she presented me with this training that she came up with over a weekend. And it's almost like she took all of the thoughts in my head and then put it on paper. And she's essentially training at an RP five or six the entire time, four days a week. And not only is she drastically improving in her health, her body composition is drastically improving, her strength is skyrocketing.

17:02 I mean, it's crazy. The progression is rapid, and it's completely blown my brain. completely. And how she's built the training is through movement assessment. And so now I'm like, "Girl, you got to do a movement assessment on me cuz I'm trying to grow my glutes and my my hamstrings. I got a torn hamstring and you know, I have all these deficiencies as a bodybuilder. But being in this process of being in prep and listening to you, you're hitting on things that I'm coming to know that are true." And I I kind of knew in the back of my mind, but as you start to unpack things, I'm this is probably the maximum amount that I'm going to talk. I'm just going to listen to you. So that's that's my >> I think what I picked up on there is is there's a whole stack of different variables, right? So in the case of of the person you're talking about, she's taken a program and she's changed like if we were to look at what variables go into a training program.

18:02 Well, very broadly speaking, at the foundation of that, we would have frequency. So, we've got how often that exercise or that muscle is being trained. Obviously, we've got exercise selection. So, what exercise are we actually doing? And then we've got, I guess we could say volume might be the big next lever. And so, that's kind of the bones of a workout program, right? If we know what exercises we're doing, we know how many sets, let's just say per week we're doing, and then we know how often we're training that muscle.

18:28 Well, there's just by doing that, even if we ignore sets, reps, RP, rest periods, all those other variables, there's a a stack of different ways we can arrange those things, right? So, we could have a situation where someone is doing, let's say there's 10 exercises in your workout program, and we could have a situation where someone is doing you know, each of those exercises once per week. you know, they they split them over. Let's say you got 12 exercises.

18:54 You split that over three different workouts and you're doing four exercises per workout, right? And then you could be doing, say, four sets of each exercise, each workout. So now you've got 16 sets in total per workout, four sets per exercise. And that exercise is being trained for four sets per week, right? You could take that exact same list of exercises, that same weekly volume, and you could now spread that out over say three full body sessions where each exercise is being done in that whole in that session in each session and you're doing it just for one set each, right? And now in fact, your weekly volume is technically less than if you're doing four sets in each exercise once per week, right? But the outcome of that situation is going to be vastly different. So just to add some numbers to this and maybe it makes a little bit more sense if you were to look at there's a whole group of work called the maintenance literature as far as hypertrophy goes and what these researchers do is they'll get people to follow a program for you know usually 3 to 6 months and then they'll reduce their volume and they'll look at how much volume do you need to do to continue to grow to maintain or the where we see net loss we see atrophy and there's about as far as I'm aware about four studies now, maybe five that are doing this and they all find the exact same thing. They all find that if you do a an exercise once per week for three to four sets, you don't see net growth. You see maintenance. Now, muscle can't maintain. What's happening in that week is you're growing muscle and you're losing that muscle again before the next week, right? And that leads to this equilibrium. Now, we've also got research that looks at, well, what happens if we do one set twice a week?

20:41 or one set three times a week. And even in advanced lifters, one set twice a week, not done to failure, we see net growth over time. So by simply taking that exercise and we're doing the four sets and splitting it up, even with fewer sets, if we just train it with one set twice a week or one set three times a week, now what we see is actually neck growth. Okay? So we see hypertrophy. But if we look at muscle damage and we look at recovery m recovery post-workout fatigue, okay, so basically your ability to recover for a a successive session that is influenced first and foremost by the the amount of muscle damage from the session prior. Okay, so people talk about CNS fatigue, they wildly misunderstand it. We can go to more detail if we want, but the main driver of postworkout CNS fatigue is muscle damage that causes inflammation to enter the blood that has an effect neurologically. Muscle damage directly is associated with the amount of volume you did in that session for that muscle.

21:40 So, if we do one set for a muscle compared to four sets for a muscle, that one set is going to be recoverable within about 24 hours. Those four sets, they're going to take 48, maybe 72 hours to recover. So, >> so you're telling me I need to cut my training completely in half while I'm in prep >> and do it more frequently? >> Oh, man. Kind of messing my whole brain up right now, dude.

22:11 >> Can't think about this way. cuz >> No, I understand it. I totally understand it. It But it's so frustrating. And this is why I'm sitting at it sounds like I'm emotional a little bit. Maybe I am. It's like, okay. Okay. So, like if if that if that is true, and I'm going to say that it's true because I actually trust you. I have no idea who you actually are other than all the content that I've consumed over the five or six years that I've been following you. So, you're you're a trusted adviser and I've seen what you've done with Trey and like I'm going to I'm going to say you're right. So, What what that means is everyone else has it wrong. And it's extremely frustrating to sit here and think like the whole the whole bodybuilding education that I thought I had was just based on stupid. So, which I guess is kind of the common theme in the health and fitness world where we're just told poor information that doesn't have anything to do with physiology a lot of the time and the next thing we know we're doing stupid things repetitively.

23:26 So, you know, okay, so I have a question and then I'm going to want you to get back to your your thoughts because I don't I don't want to hijack the podcast. So, if I have a deficient body part and you only have so much time to train in a week, how are you managing hitting all the body parts that you want to and also growing the one that's deficient? Or let's say you have a intermediate bodybuilder. He hasn't been doing it doing it as long and he has an entire upper body that needs to be, you know, built up versus his legs. Can you unpack how you would sort of approach that? And and you and you can get granular here or you can keep it, you know, I it doesn't matter to me and so whatever.

24:27 So just before I jump into that, I think to be gracious, you made this comment, okay, everyone else is wrong. So I think I do think that people have emphasized wrong things and been misled in in areas. what I would say is firstly, we know that lifting weights works, right? It's hard. It's quite hard to stuff that up. >> you can stuff it up and I'd say the main way you can stuff there's two ways you can stuff it up. One is if you just never go anywhere near close enough to failure. So if your proximity to fail is always say above seven repetitions in reserve, you're just not going to do anything. You'll be able to hypertrophy hypertrophy very some slow twitch muscle fibers. but that's sort of it.

25:07 There's going to be a very low ceiling to what you can achieve. And the the other way I think you can stuff it up is what we're talking about with this sort of excess volume that is beyond your recovery capacity. And we've actually got some really interesting studies in this. There's one study where they looked at increasing volume over time every every week, every two weeks to increased volume. and I believe they kept it I forget how many reps in reserve they kept it but they kept it a few reps in reserve but they went up to stupid amounts of sets. you know, went up to something like 40 sets per muscle group or maybe they just did it for legs, but very very high sets. And in the first few weeks, first four weeks or so, there was there was growth. And then what we see is as the volume just got really high, the growth is plateaued and there was no new growth even though they just kept pumping volume. So I do think that that those two scenarios are where we can screw it up. But if we don't do that really, we're going to see growth.

26:02 Okay. what we're talking about here. You're doing this, you know, as a competitor. You guys have a vested interest and how do we do this to the best of our ability, not just, oh, will we see some growth happen right now? The other point I want to make as well is you said, well, no one's doing this. Every single bodybuilder was doing this up until about 1960, right? Every single bodybuilder. It is very hard to find exceptions. And when you find exceptions, they're normally doing what I've explained, but even more extreme.

26:31 So they're actually training a muscle group for five times a week instead of three times a week. Right? What we really see is the introduction of anabolics change the game a little bit. And that also means that well I say a little bit a lot completely. It also means that athletes who are on anabolics do have a larger margin for error there. So for example, I've mentioned that four sets once a week is is about maintenance whereas one set twice a week is growth.

27:03 The reason for that is that after about 2 days, so when we we train a muscle, we cause a a growth stimulus and that stimulus lasts about 2 days. We don't have any record of that lasting longer than 2 days. Okay, it's probably even less than that, but let's call it at about 2 days. So all the growth that's going to occur from a workout is probably going to be done within that two-day period. Then a muscle's never just sitting at equilibrium. It's either growing or it's it's atrophying, right?

27:32 And so after that 2-day period is up, we start to see very small amounts of atrophy start to occur. And you know, we see this over there's some training studies where we see within a week there's muscle loss, right? It's hard to pick up that small amount of of muscle loss, but we've got technology now where we actually can see this in studies within within a week there's loss. And that's not in people who are, you know, bedressed. That's in people who are training. They stop training for a week and within 7 days like we got faster lengths have disappeared. Right? So, we're seeing significant loss occur.

28:07 Now, if someone's enhanced while that's >> Man, you tell that to the wrong person though, man. You tell that to one of my bodybuilders and you tell them you if you if you don't if you rest for a week like you're going to have atrophy. I mean you would have you would have an unraveling of a human being happen right in front of you. I mean it's it's just that's crazy to think about. >> Yeah. And and where this gets important I guess is the magnitude we're talking about. And I also don't want to understate that magnitude because we do have some studies that show within about 10 days you've lost weeks worth of growth. Okay. So, >> so it is significant, >> but I also don't want to overstate it and say, well, you lose everything within a week. Obviously, you >> sure, but it's it's not it's not as tiny as we thought it was. It it's actually >> it's more like >> what you're basically saying across training is like how you do how you do it all freaking matters.

29:10 >> Absolutely. It matters. All the all of it matters. And I think people just think training to failure >> is is what matters. And it's it makes it makes training, you know, how it's it's interesting is like as a coach like when I started it's interesting that you that you kind of you and I kind of started the same way where it was like okay I I like lifting. I like bodybuilding. I like I I've done a competition. I did really well and like I want to help people and then people that I love got sick >> and that drove me to understand physiology more and want to help them and heal them in in that type of situation.

30:00 So there's a depth of understanding. you kind of touched on this earlier with the the lab work. Once once I started to understand lab work, it's like, oh, this is the abyss that can continue down as long as we want, but it opens the door to be able to see things and heal things that we've never been able to do. So now what you're basically doing is you're cracking my brain open like an egg and telling me that training is as deep and as wide as functional health is.

30:35 >> Yeah. >> It's that's significant. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's the same journey I went on and when I started because I probably similar journey to you maybe like you know I was mentored by >> you know poloquin style training and yeah you know maybe more classic sort of bodybuilding type stuff and you know thought that I knew this stuff really well you know I'd done all these seminars done all these courses read every book out there and then when I started to learn the physiology I was like oh this stuff isn't actually physiologically valid anymore and we know we know better than that you know we've advance. You know, we've moved beyond, >> you know, Brad's 2010 analysis saying, "Hey, it's all about muscle damage and metabolites and maybe mechanical tension." No, no, no. It's not about muscle damage. It's not about metabolites. It's just about mechanical tension. And that needs to be the conversation.

31:24 So, you know, again, if we look at what did the biggest people on the planet do before anabolics, most of them were training each muscle with one set three times per week. sets didn't even exist for quite a long period of time. So, we have Mr. >> Are they warming are they warming up to some degree doing something else or are they just going right into >> going straight in? Okay. >> They Yeah, they're usually doing some kind of like often like Olympic lifts like very far away from failure. some of them might just do like you know some kind of brisk walking or something like that. often the wearing tracksuits to actually have a muscle warming effect because technically speaking, and this is another rabbit hole, warm-up sets don't do a whole lot. Okay? Basically, what does do something is warming up the muscle. Warm-up sets do not warm up the muscle. Okay? So, warming the muscle will occur from say 10 minutes or so of doing some kind of cardio exercise that's using that muscle. And that's what we see has reduction in injury risk. So the fact that these guys are saying, "Hey, wear your tracksuit pants, wear your jacket, walk around, stay warm, never get cold." It's like, "Holy crap, you guys freaking worked this out 75 years before we had any idea what was going on." And I see this time and time again with these old fellas where everything they're saying, you know, they they talk about, I mean, there's so many little things, you know, they'll say, "Hey, if you want to get as big as you can, have some orange juice and some honey in your workout and have a have a, you know, sip every every lift." Okay, we've now got studies over the last couple years showing us that you you swish about six grams of carbs in your mouth before each lift and your motor unit recruitment goes up. It's not about it's it's not just about blood glucose.

33:10 It's about having something sweet in your mouth. These guys freaking knew that. They didn't know why, but they worked out, hey, when I lift and I have honey during my workout, mixing a bit of juice and something sweet, I build more muscle. You know, there's so many little things like that where it's like, hey, when you don't have this other variable of anabolics over time, you freaking work stuff out because there's no other variables messing with that.

33:33 >> So, to my straight line. >> Yeah. Because you know when you when you introduce anabolics now you've got the effect of the anabolics but you've also got the genetic effect of how do you respond to the anabolics >> and it's an excitatory thing too. >> Yeah. Some of it's like, hey, I just want to lift more, you know, motivation% >> and but it's also like a maybe it's a CNS fatigue, too, because you look at >> I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but even as anabolics increase in my own prep, >> I see a a difference in my own brain, you know, in the way that I'm moving through my day. I may be maybe more a little more aggressive in the gym maybe, but I think there's, you know, there's a point of there's a sweet spot and then there's just, you know, you're you're overcompensating because you're in such a deficit and you're trying to make it to the finish line and be as conditioned as you can be.

34:29 >> So, yeah. >> Well, you know what's interesting? Like, Jake, like because if you think post steroid era, >> you did you ever do DC training, dog crap training? You know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's very much like >> was one of the few post steroid era kind of. It's different. It's still a little bit different. It's not exactly what we're talking about, but he's probably the closest one post90s that actually talked about and he would get destroyed on the forums, >> but then he would see crazy growth.

34:57 Obviously, they had anabolics and stuff, but very similar one set. Then that's where that's where I first learned clusters is from someone like that. Extreme stretchings and things like that. So, it is >> interesting that like even before anabolics and before someone like Dante, which in the bodybuilding community I do feel is way more respected now than back in like 2008 and stuff when he was doing the cycles for Penny's thread >> that these guys were doing this way before that and they had no clue why. I mean, they just said, "Oh, but I also think >> they had no option but to pay attention to, okay, if I do this, it generates this response versus we can fill up three cc's of a syringe."

35:36 >> Yeah. pop some check drops going on our way and have a good session on. but yeah, keep diving into it. It's just interesting to think about that I think a lot of bodybuilders or anyone doesn't really realize. >> Well, one thing that's really cool to look at is when we look at this this line in the sand of when anabolics were becoming widespread in bodybuilding, there's a few bodybuilders who occupied both sides of that that line. So we can look at someone like Bill Pearl who competed and won competitions naturally and then competed and won competitions enhanced and you can look at how his training evolved and he more than tripled his volume when he started using anabolics. Now you know that's a whole another conversation to say oh well do anabolics allow one to to do more volume to recover more?

36:25 Again, it's a whole separate conversation, but what we start to see is late 60s, '7s onwards, the training just doesn't match up physiologically with what works for natural athletes. Now, Kenneth, again, you made this point before like, oh, every everyone's doing everything wrong. And I said, hey, people on anabolics have a larger margin for error because I mentioned that that stimulus period is about 2 days, okay? And then we start to see atrophy occur. Well, that so we got muscle protein synthesis, muscle protein breakdown, that muscle protein breakdown. So we we basically just want the scale to be in favor of muscle protein synthesis. Well, one of the things that significantly affects muscle protein breakdown is cortisol. And anabolics is going to have a cortisol lowering effect there. So we're not going to see as much muscle protein breakdown. So this is why someone on anabolics can get away with training a lower frequency because they're not necessarily going to lose as much muscle between those bouts as someone who's natural. So basically the way I would say it is someone if you got someone who's natural and someone on anabolics, what's best for one of them is going to be what's best for the other. However, what's not going to work for someone who's natural might still work for someone who's on anabolics.

37:37 So to go back to your question, you got someone who has, you know, a muscle deficit, they want to focus on that and still do everything else well. So if we look at what are the moving parts that go into hypertrophy. Okay. So we've talked about that stimulus. That stimulus lasts about 2 days. Okay. Then either let's say there's very there's basically nothing happening or there's little bits of loss that are happening. Okay. Depending on someone's enhanced status. So stimulus is one. Then we want to look at how much stimulus can we achieve. Okay. Obviously there's varying amounts of stimulus. Now what we see in all the literature we've got on this tells us we have a dose response which is nonlinear for volume. So what that means is that the first set is the most stimulating and we're talking like hard set. Okay I don't I don't love that terminology but there's a a little bit of nuance here but essentially that set taken close to failure. Okay Ideally in an unfatigued state that set is going to be the most stimulating in terms of muscle growth. You do a second set it's now less stimulating than the first.

38:38 it's still going to stimulate some additional growth. Okay, we've got a meta analysis from Brad Shinfeld in this and he what if you look at that meta it suggests that that first set let's say that first set produces one unit of growth that second set produces about 40% as much. Okay, so about 0.4 units of growth. Broadly speaking, looking at that meta analysis, we could say each additional set is probably producing about half as much growth as a set before it.

39:07 So if we've got this nonlinear with this diminishing returns of volume then and we know that that stimulus period ends within about 2 days what that tells us is spreading out that volume that weekly volume every 2 days would make more sense than bunching all that volume together over one or two sessions. Does that make sense so far? >> Yeah. >> And that's why we see one set twice a week causes growth. Four sets once a week it doesn't. So you can get more done with half as much volume. So let's say glutes were a deficit for someone.

39:40 Then what we would say is well we want to be training glutes as we we want glutes to be in a period of growth as much as possible. Okay, as mo most of the time as possible. And so that would mean we want to be training them as close to them leaving that stimulus period as possible which is roughly 2 days. So, what we would want to do would be to train our glutes every 2 days.

40:06 Now, at the same time, what we want to do is train them in a recovered state. If there's still workout, if if there's still post-workout fatigue there, we're not going to be able to recruit as many muscle fibers in the glutes. And again, if we want to grow a muscle, it needs to be activated or muscle fibers need to be activated. So, then what we want to do is look at how many sets can we do and recover 2 days later. Now, it's there's a little bit of variance there. How close you take a set to failure is going to influence it. How many repetitions you do. More repetitions are going to be more damaging than lower repetitions.

40:39 Very broadly speaking, you could say it's almost everyone is probably going to land between two and four sets. Okay. Now, if you divide that up over more exercises, it's possible you could get that number slightly higher because then the muscle damage is going to be concentrated in particular regions of that muscle or the glutes for example. But broadly speaking, let's just say two to four sets going to be recoverable 2 days later. Well, then that's already given us that that blueprint as to what's the most effective thing for glutes. Training them with as much recoverable volume. let's say four sets split over two different exercises as often as possible once they leave that stimulus period every two days. We also know that within a workout session there's fatigue that accumulates within that session itself that's going to cause reduction in motor unit recruitment. Okay? So if you take your last exercise in a workout and you put it first in your next workout, if you get more repetitions out, it's because you're not fatigued. So it means that there was fatigue that accumulated in that workout and that was affecting your last your last exercise, right?

41:48 >> So So >> yeah, I I have a quick question. It's I don't want to derail your thought. You when we're when you have motor recruitment, it's like okay, the muscle has to be activated. So if you have a person that has mobility issues and can't activate the muscle, then you're at a loss already. Are you seeing that as like >> So, give me an example. What? Give me like a muscle example where that might occur.

42:17 >> I mean a great a great thing would be my right glute. So, my my right hamstring is torn. it was never repaired. So my entire right leg when I do anything glute related I have to really consciously focus on that right glute for it to be activated and not everybody you know depending on the type of client that you're working with and being online is difficult you can't translate to a client sometimes how that activation and and they and they probably don't even they probably already know they don't activate it. So, but to be able to take your mental capacity and connect it to the muscle that you're working that that would have to be a variable.

43:11 Correct. In with what you're saying. >> Yeah. So, that mind muscle connection is an interesting one because there is some evidence that that can increase moage recruitment. What I would do in that situation is look at there's exercises where there can be significant variance in muscle contribution different muscles contribution to that exercise. So let's look at something like advance. >> So it's selection. >> I would say that that question comes down to exercise selection. Yeah. So, if I've got someone who struggles to develop a particular muscle, and glutes is not a bad example here, then I'm not going to train their glutes using an exercise where they could potentially be able to use a different muscle that might have better leverage for them.

43:51 Okay? So, for example, a lunge, okay? Maybe even something like an RDL or stiff leg deadlift. anything any of those multi- joint exercises where their hams could get more more work out of that, their quads could get more work out of that, the adductor magnets could get more work out of that. We want to take away that variable and force them to do an exercise where there's not really anything else that can do that work. Okay, arguably we could say hip thrust would be a great example there. Yes, there's going to be a little bit of quad involvement at the the knee joint, but especially if we're doing that as a glute bridge, there's not going to be much. So it's going to be quite difficult for for someone to lift a barbell in a glute bridge not using their glutes, >> you know. So really then the only other variable will be is there a a discrepancy from side to side. Okay.

44:41 That's where we might still be falling down. We're doing a glute bridge. Great. Hams aren't doing the work. Quads aren't doing the work. But if one >> but the left side is >> Exactly. Exactly. So then can we do a unilateral version of this? Right. or can we pick another exercise and manipulate it in such a way that it's just really freaking hard where the glutes have best leverage. So, for example, if we look at something like a back extension, back extension, yes, we're going to get hamstrings. We're going to get glutes. Now, we're going to get more glutes in that contracted position. What can we do? Well, we could do a horizontal back extension instead of an incline. And we could do it banded. So, we can make it extremely freaking difficult where the glutes almost have exclusive leverage. Right now, you've got an issue with one side.

45:30 What can we do? We can now do that unilateral. >> So, just have one leg hooked under the the pad and then band it and just force it to make it as difficult as possible when nothing else can do the work. >> Right. Okay. Now, continue on if you remember what what you were saying. >> Yeah. So, so essentially what we've established so far is how much recoverable volume every 2 days we spread we're spreading our volume so we can train with a high frequency in a recovered state and I mentioned that there's fatigue that's occurring within that session and so if you've got a priority muscle we can place it first in that session so there's no workout fatigue from that session that's going to influence motor unit recruitment there's in case listeners aren't aware a muscle is not either activated or non-activated motor units within that muscle are activated or not activated.

46:17 So, you could have an exercise first in a workout and in an unfatigued state, you might be able to activate, let's say, 90% of that muscle. You're not activating all that muscle. We're never activating all that muscle. Really, there's very few exceptions to that. Now, you put that exercise last in the workout, you might be activating 85%, 88%. Okay? So there's now some muscle fibers in that muscle that are not activated that are not receiving a stimulus. Okay? So technically we can be in a position where some muscle fibers in a muscle experience a growth stimulus and are going to hypertrophy and some muscle fibers in a muscle did not experience a growth stimulus and they are going to continue to atrophy. Okay.

47:02 But majority of that muscle will be getting bigger simultaneous muscle hypertrophy and atrophy. >> So again that's why this exercise order effect matters because you want as many of those muscle fibers in that that priority muscle to be getting a stimulus. So ultimately that's that's the answer. What would be the most effective workout or or training routine to grow your glutes would be train them every two days. So you could do every other day or you could do full body or you could do some version of three times per week. Okay? Have them at the start of the workout. And I just mentioned no you can't you cannot activate 100% of a muscle in one go. So what we need to do is look at what exercise can we choose or or or exercise combinations can we choose that will allow us to activate as much of that muscle as possible. So if we look at you know so glutes well we might be able to pick an exercise that activates more of the upper glute region. We might be able to pick an exercise that activates more of the lower glute region. Maybe we do like a hip thrust and we do an abduction exercise. And that combination is going to give us more total muscle fibers that have been activated than if we just pump all our volume into a a glute bridge.

48:20 Yeah. So now what that looks like is we've got let's say a hip abduction and we've got a hip thrust. We've got two sets of each close to failure. Doesn't need to be exact to failure. Can be within a repetitary reserve. And we're going to do that three times a week or every other day. Sorted. That is in my opinion recipe to glute growth. We could go one step further and say does this muscle experience what's called stretch mediated hypertrophy. Okay. So we've got radial growth, we've got longitudinal growth. So can that muscle basically get longer? Can the the sarcimeir get longer essentially?

48:59 Add more sarcimeir. And not all muscles seem to satisfy that requirement, but some do. Okay, this is a little bit confusing, but long story short, glutes, if we stretch the glutes, they're probably going to get longer to an extent. So, what we could do if a muscle does experience stretch media mediated hypertrophies have a lengthened position exercise in that's interesting for the glutes because glutes have best leverage in a shortened position like a hip thrust. So, they're not going to experience any of that stretch mediated hypertrophy in that sort of hip thrust or glute bridge exercise. So what we would do then is find what exercise can we stretch the glutes in. Something like a single leg leg press would be a great example for that. And in your case that would work well as well being unilateral. So we can throw in that that's a little bit separate because that growth we probably don't need to train it as frequently. it probably the the the rate that sarcimeog genesis is reversed that loss occurs is slightly different to the rate of of atrophy in in other muscle fibers due to radial growth. So we could probably get away with doing that lengthened exercise once a week. Okay?

50:07 But we could still do it every other day if we wanted. Now we've got the start of our workout nailed. We've got the first six sets, five or six sets nailed. And now what we need to do is work out where do we place everything else? And we've got two really good options here. You said, "What happens if you got someone who has an upper body focus?" Well, let's say you got someone who's got an upper body focus and they've got poor glutes. Okay. So, what we can do is we put the glutes at the start of the session like that. And then we do all the upper body stuff next. And again, we've established the first set's going to be the most effective. So, we might do one to two sets per exercise for upper body. And then what we might do is we'll do say quads on one day and then the next day we'll do hams and calves.

50:54 And so essentially what we've got it's almost like a full body workout but the lower priority muscles we're just doing them on one of those two workouts only. >> And we're doing upper body every workout. We're doing the high priority glutes every workout. And then we like I said we know that one set twice a week is going to cause growth. It seems like probably one set every four to five days is going to be the bare minimum. So, if we're alternating two workouts and we're doing that three to four times a week, even if we gave a muscle one set, it's still going to grow. So, we can't we can't stuff that up.

51:31 >> Wow. Okay. >> So, my question there, Jake, because I agree. I mean, that's how I program, but you know how some of these bodybuilders or gymgoers are, they're going to get bored of doing the same two workouts. How would you then work around that? Let's say we're falling. >> Well, actually, let me ask a question in conjunction with Trey's question. How do you talk somebody into doing it in the first place? It's like because they don't they don't nobody has no nobody's really doing that and it's not sexy. You know what I'm saying?

52:06 >> And like there's a there's this whole building trust with a client and that's why they do they do what you say. But sometimes like even just programming what I have found to be intelligent until now. it's difficult for them to to do it and then but also do it long term like what Trey is saying. So >> run with that. >> Yeah. I mean it's it's the same question like how do you convince someone to do something that they don't realize is good for them, right? And you just said it's not sexy. I'll tell you what is sexy though is getting results. And so if we can if we've got a client who is on the fence about it and they're willing to trust me for a little while, I'll say, "Look, give me 6 weeks on this and I can guarantee you progress is going to be better than you've ever seen before." And time and time again, I'll get message after message. I've been lifting for 20 years, 25 years. I've been plateaued for 10 years. Didn't think I could progress anymore. Started doing this, man. Progress went through the roof. Right? So, if we can get someone just to trust us for a short amount of time to see the results, then what I hear is, man, I love full body.

53:08 This is the best. I'm not going back. Yeah, you thought you hated it 6 weeks ago, right? So, that motivation from seeing results, like that is really meaningful. But if we've got someone who's not even willing to to invest for that period of time, then this is this is ultimately an art of coaching question. It's not a physiology question, right? >> And so then what we need to do as coaches is work out and and to be totally blunt, the way I would look at this is how can I fool you >> into doing what I want you to do, which is going to be best for you. And the way I can do that is I can get you doing let's say a chest press machine one day.

53:46 Okay? We're going to get good middle middle chest. We'll get, you know, maybe a little bit of costal chest. We'll get decent clavvicular chest. Then I can get you doing maybe a barbell bench with a wide grip on the next day, next workout. Or I can get you doing even a pec deck. A pec deck, we're not going to get the anterior delt as much, but we're still going to get the same almost the same chest involvement. So I can pick exercises that are doing almost the exact same thing for my intents and purposes. Is it going to be as good as repeating the exact same exercise?

54:15 Probably not. Okay. But now you think you've got this illusion of variety. Might just be a different apparatus. I might give you a wide grip pull-up one day and a wide grip pull down the next day. From a back perspective, almost identical. >> Right. >> Right. >> So that's how I'd overcome that exercise selection issue in terms of the frequency issue. Like if someone's like, I don't want to I don't you know, I don't want to train legs every day.

54:41 Great. Split them up like what I just said. you're only doing quads one day and you're doing, you know, hams the other day. Okay, we'll train legs on one of those two full body days. So, so essentially what we can do is it all just comes down to how we want to arrange the exercises, right? But what we can do is we can say we've got glues to the top, which we've talked about. Then we've got upper body and we might do single sets for all those upper body exercises. And then on one of those days we do all we do our quad work and we do our hamstring work. And then the next day we take out the quads and hams cuz that person says I freaking hate doing legs. Okay, we'll just do them every second session. And now what I'll do is I'll give you the same upper body exercises but I'll give you two sets cuz you got more bandwidth within that session. Right? So we just have to find what is the limitation in you? What's the thing that you hate? Do you hate doing legs every day? Do you hate doing the same exercises? Do you hate doing too many exercises in a workout? And then ideally, I want to work out how can I split that across two workouts? Cuz that way if we've got two workouts, ideally that we're rotating even if we're having to change exercises so they look different. That is going to a achieve the best results. B, we cannot stuff that up.

55:50 >> Right. Wow. Thanks for the life-changing conversation. So, when we're talking about mitig mitigating fatigue, you've talked about on the training side. I definitely want to touch on some of the other things and make sure we're covering it. Let's cover a little bit of nutrition, lifestyle, and supplements. I want to save supplements for last cuz I think that would be the bulk of it, but let's say like nutrition wise, what are two or three things that you would be using to mitigate fatigue? I know like the orange juice thing and your carbs, things like that.

56:26 >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So, again, fatigue wise, we're looking at we've got post-workout fatigue, which is going to be driven by muscle damage, and then we've got within session fatigue. Within session fatigue is going to be driven by a few different things. First and foremost is going to be driven by superspinal CNS fatigue, which basically best way to think about that in an oversimplified way is anything that feels hard in that session is going to have a fatiguing effect. So, let's say you do a set of 20 repetition squat to failure and then you immediately go and do a biceps curl. You didn't work your biceps doing that squat, but your biceps are going to be weaker or you're you're going to perform worse than if you would have just done the biceps curl without doing the squat. Okay, >> that basically what's happening there is you're you're huffing and you're puffing and there's this burning sensation and all these negative feelings this afrant feedback being sent to your to your brain that is is causing a perception of effort and that is taking you've got a certain amount of effort you can tolerate and you're taking away from the amount of effort you can use to create central motor command and to to send central motor command to the working muscle. So within the session, we want to mitigate that sort of super spinal CNS fatigue. That's the main one. We've got other we've got spinal CNS fatigue that's basically going to sort itself out unless you're doing something stupid. and then post-workout that technically would fall under spinal CS fatigue as well, but there's a different driver there. So nutritionally, is there anything we can do to mitigate any of those types of fatigue?

57:58 Well, not a lot. The main thing we can do, well, there's a little bit. If we're in a totally carb depleted state, that could exacerbate post-workout fatigue. Okay? That could exac that could worsen the recovery period. So, we want to make sure that we're not chronically glycogen depleted. Most bodybuilders are not going to be glycogen depleted. Most people are not doing a ketogenic diet if they're trying to maximize muscle growth. If you are doing a ketogenic diet, then there's probably going to be a little bit of a sacrifice there, but there will be things we can do to mitigate some of that. So, that's the the post-worker fatigue bit. the the fatigue within the session. Well, what we know is things like hunger increase your perception of effort. We've got a couple of interesting studies where they'll have people train hungry and they perform significantly worse than when they train fed. Now, what I think is really interesting there is if they feed them a low carb meal or high carb meal, it doesn't matter as long as they're not hungry. I think at this point in time I'm seeing too I'm seeing too much of an emphasis placed on carbs in my opinion. I think people are thinking we just carb max as much carbs we can before the session after the session it's all good. I don't think it makes that much of a difference. Right?

59:11 If we train the way we've just outlined the glycogen depletion is going to occur is pretty minimal. So I I simply don't think we need the level of carbs most people seem to think we need. But eating something before you train great. I would still eat some carbs before I train because the the second fatiguing sort of effect we're going to see will be reduction blood glucose. When we see blood glucose drop while we're training, >> that's going to correlate with worse performance as well. Now, we can mitigate that really easily by having an easily digestible carb just a little bit before we train as we start training. I mentioned juice before. Perfect. a bit of glucose, bit of fructose, 25, 30 grams. Start sipping on it on your way to the gym. Sip on it between each, my recommendation would actually be the start of each new exercise, have another sip and that's going to help maintain blood glucose. That's going to reduce some of that fatiguing effect. And then we mentioned the the oral there's receptors. There's receptors in our mouth and they sense carbohydrates or or or sugar or I guess carbohydrates really. And that's where we see The sweetness. Is it the sweetness?

60:21 >> Technically, it's not the sweetness because they've done this with artificial sweeteners and it didn't work. >> Okay. >> But it's also not to do with ingesting it. So, what they've done in these studies is they swish it. They use like a Gatorade powder or something like that, glucose powder, whatever. They swish it and then they spit it out and it still has that same effect. So, you don't technically need to ingest it. >> But ingesting it, you're still going to get that potential benefit around glucose, blood glucose. Yeah. So, if you got someone in concrete and they can't afford any more carbs, okay, literally we can swish it for 10 seconds, spit it out, we'll still get an energy boost or energy boost is probably a little bit simplified, but we will get that that performance boost. So, nutritionally, those are the the big ticket things we can do per workout to reduce some of these fatiguing mechanisms. Right now, obviously, if you're eating like an idiot, you're eating processed foods, you're very low protein, whatever, obviously these things are going to have an effect as well. I'm assuming people listening to this podcast are probably not just living off pizza, right? They probably know the basics of how to eat decently. These are the the one percentage we can do to to, you know, up that effect. In terms of lifestyle, I mean, look, the main thing, the two big things coming to mind for me there, I mentioned cortisol before and I mentioned how that's going to affect muscle protein breakdown. So there's different things that are going to increase that effect or that that yeah I guess that you know level of cortisol one of which is actually going to be in a very large deficit. So if someone is dieting really hard then what we do see is muscle protein breakdown goes up probably due to that cortisol effect.

61:55 So, if someone's goal was to gain as much muscle as possible and they also want to lose body fat, we would probably want to do a little bit more of a, you know, more mild deficit rather than a very aggressive deficit or maybe some kind of cyclical approach could work there as well. But, you know, we just want to be mindful that a large deficit, we're going to see increases in muscle protein breakdown. In that situation, training with a high frequency is going to be really important, right? I do not want someone in a deficit training a muscle once a week because the stimulus is going to be less if you're in a big deficit and the protein breakdown is going to be bigger.

62:30 Okay. So again, doing, you know, single sets every other day. I think that's perfect for someone in a deficit. and then we see the effect on recovery from things like like just psychological stress. So you know there's studies on on students during exam time and the recovery goes down. So, in terms of lifestyle management, well, how can we mitigate stress? You know, meditation, walking outside, breath work. Trey, I don't know if you saw that new study that looked at different types of breath work and compared to meditation and they looked at mood >> and breath work compared it performed really well and that was like 5 minutes of breath work a day.

63:06 earthing, grounding, you know, that's got good literature behind it for modulating cortisol. you know, things that influence oxytocin. So, >> can I ask a quick question about Sorry. so of course you want to put your feet on the earth that's normal like what you would want somebody to do. >> But I think are the grounding mats do you have do you find any efficacy in that? Is that anything that you would do? >> yeah. I mean, look, I I remember using a grounding mat with someone who had fibromyalgia once and I didn't tell them like kind of what to expect. They didn't know anything about it. there wasn't really any anticipated placebo effect >> and they used it and they're like, "Holy crap, what was that? My pain was like halved when I was lying on it."

63:52 obviously that's the end of one anecdote, but I certainly think that they they do have a place. The question is always around quality. Are you actually, you know, testing whether that that, you know, earth connection is working or not? No, maybe not. You know, some of the wiring might not be that durable. Yeah. For me, it just comes down to do I trust this product? And I don't know the answer to that. So, I would prefer that someone >> I very rarely would use an earthing mat.

64:20 >> Okay. >> I've probably asked maybe half a dozen clients ever to get one. >> Okay. >> So, I do think that they've got a place, but you know, they're not the >> top of my sort of, you know, toolbox. >> Sure. >> and you know, supplements, Trey, you mentioned supplements. Obviously, we see the effect of supplements on things like cortisol as well. Also, I think that's where, you know, they can they go a really long way. And, you know, for me, I I definitely think there's a a huge you know, potential use in a lot of supplements that that aren't traditionally used for bodybuilding, you know, you know, things like saffron.

64:56 I think just about everyone should be taking saffron. I've never heard any bodybuilders talk about saffron, but why? I don't understand. You know, it's huge impact around sleep. You know, the people who how often do you get a client in contrapt and they're not sleeping, right? And we see studies with saffron. There's like a 24 to 26% improvement in people who have insomnia. In self-reported sleep quality, there's like a 24% improvement or increase in subjective sleep quality using saffron.

65:21 You know, we see reductions in cortisol. We see the the same efficacy around depression and mood as we see with anti-depressant medication. Why would I not use that with a client? That doesn't make any sense to me. You know, we look at even you know, from a a fatiguing mechanism standpoint, we actually see saffron causes an increase in inbrain blood flow and we see that that translates to higher motor energy treatment. So, it could potentially have a hypertrophy benefit. It could have a potential benefit in reducing muscle protein breakdown.

65:51 >> So, I'm just This is all selfish. I'm I take saffron before bed. >> Yeah. and it's probably when you introduced it into your your little channel that you have and I was like, I want to try that. It's great. And I I sleep great. I mean, even I mean, relatively now versus, you know, at the start of prep, I would say it's it's reduced, but the the overall experience is fine considering how lean I am. And I'm I'm pretty lean. And so if I'm currently taking anywhere between 30 mg to 60 millig before bed, but I wanted to potentially I wanted to potentially utilize it for my training. At what point are you maxing out the dose that you should have for the day? And then also, can you speak to maybe a couple of different timing situations that make sense?

67:00 >> So, I would be interested to know what you think here as well, Trey. The way I look at it is when you look at So, Saffron's got good data behind it for things like say ADHD. It's got good data behind it for things like depression. It's got good data behind it for things like sleep. Okay? They're the big ticket things. Yes, there's other things, hormonal issues, a lot of like women's hormone issues, you know, PMS, menopausal symptoms, all that kind of stuff as well. But the things that we're really interested here neurologically, those are the big ticket things. Now, what I see in the research is often there'll be studies where they'll compare say 15 milligs once a day, 15 milligs twice a day, so 30 milligs in total. They don't normally go a lot higher than that. And what I tend to what I feel like I I see in these studies is that 30 milligrams is almost always better, but it's not twice as good. And when they're doing 15 milligrams, obviously they're doing that once a day. So it looks like twice a day and higher doses is a bit better, but you're really getting the bulk of that with that single dosing. So if we were to to push up that single dose into 30 milligs, are we going to get 90% of what we're going to get at splitting a dose 15 to 30 milligrams twice a day? I I would say we probably are. Now, in terms of the overall effect, are we going to get the sleep benefit if we have in the morning? Well, yeah, it looks like we are. It looks like taking a single dose at any time, we're still getting the bulk of that benefit. Are we going to get the mood benefit taking it at night?

68:24 Yeah, I think we're still going to get the bulk of that benefit. Now, in an ideal world, I would still split it, but I don't get too concerned if I've got someone who just wants to take, you know, 30 milligs once a day at any time. I think we're still going to get the bulk of that benefit. >> Trey, how do you >> I agree. I mean, like the way I've always done it is I base it on what am I after more than anything.

68:45 >> What's biggest the main thing you're going for? Yeah. >> If someone needs mood, I'm going to be like, "Okay, it's in the morning." Like, I still feel like we're going to get the same benefits regardless for sleep. If it's sleep, okay, I'm going to put it for sleep. Or if we're talking like libido and stuff like that, I'm probably going to put it maybe afternoon. Maybe it's picking up. I don't know if you've ever tried this, but in the afternoon, maybe it picks up late in the evening and libido and things like that better.

69:08 That's how I've done it. The only other way I will maybe do it a little bit differently and I know like we've talked about it a couple of times. I'll have some where maybe I'm wanting the mood, but for whatever reason their mood drops, so I intentionally put it in the evening. I'm fine with the mood being a little bit wonky going to bed. Or if I have someone that tends to be more like that heightened side at night, I do find I can't put it at night. it it almost causes like the opposite effect for him.

69:36 It's like like insomnia type thing. So that's another thing >> I'll do in place. But I do find like regardless most of the time I'll put it in the morning because I think most people are going to benefit more from the morning. >> They're still telling me my sleep is so much better >> just with taking more. So I don't think timing is as much better. It really comes down to what does that the art of coaching what does that actual client need and what are we seeing within it.

70:00 >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's basically what I would do timing wise. I take it personally in the morning. Sometimes I'll take a second dose before training. If I've got a client whose main issue is sleep, we'll have it in the evening. But from what I can tell, I don't think we need to be too anal about timing. >> No. What would be another ingredient? I mean, we could talk all day with this stuff, but like what would be would you say like another two ingredients that if someone's wanting to mitigate fatigue that people aren't going to be aware of or at least be aware of like the benefits and that type of thing?

70:32 >> Yeah. So, there's some really cool stuff with and I don't know if they can still do these studies. I assume that all older studies and probably ethics approval is limited now. But if you look at like endurance literature, so in terms of fatigue in endurance sports compared to fatigue in the gym, broadly speaking, we're looking at similar mechanisms, right? There might be more usually with fatigue, what we're going to see is is some fatigue mechanisms are going to there's going to be more of of some and less of others, but they're they're kind of all working in concert and we just kind of change the ratios of which type of fatigue mechanism we're experiencing. So when we're looking at at endurance literature, there's still going to be a huge overlap in these fatiguing mechanisms. And the main one that they're usually going to be experiencing will be super spinal CNS fatigue, which is what we're concerned about within the training session. Right now, when you look at some of this literature, what you see is they use things like really potent analesics. They'll use stuff like fentinel, and they'll see the performance the the performance drop that they would expect to see from the fatigue is mitigated completely. And so I'm not saying, hey, go use fentinel before your workouts, but if it's stuff you can use that's going to have an analesic effect and reduce that perception of effort, hey, that's probably going to allow you to increase central motor command. So again, I think part of that is going to come down to even stuff like mood. Okay. So, saffron probably has a role to play there. But, you know, there's stuff like, you know, this is one I think maybe we've talked a little bit about, Trey, but stuff like JHKCU as a peptide could be really interesting there because there's some studies suggesting that that modulates your pain perception. That would be cool. Anything that's going to modulate your perception of pain and discomfort, allows you to to experience more dis discomforting sensations for longer is going to have a benefit.

72:23 Is there a dosing? Is there a dosing >> even when you talking about well the GHK and the PA when you start talking about these analesic effect supplements? I is there a a potency to why I took a I took 500 micrograms of GHK versus I took a milligram? Do you do you have any of that information? >> No. So all this is based on animal studies. So they they'll do like mouse studies where they'll notice that the mice will react less to like you know burning sensations for example right >> and so to then extrapolate that to human dosing is very difficult but what's happening with the GHK is it's actually modulating genes involved in pain experience. So it's not it's not like a true analesic in that sense. It's it's modul literally modulating genetic expression, right? So I don't know that the dosing would be I don't think we're going to see like you know this linear effect where we you know increase a dose and there's going to be a clear linear dose response in the same way that you know we look at things like GLP1s and I would say and again this is my speculation I don't know how you feel about this Trey but I think when we look at GP1s the effect around things like inflammation NFCappa B I don't know that we see a dose dependent response where you get someone taking you know 10 times the dose and you're going to 10 times less inflammation compared to a low dose. It seems to me that that lower dose is giving us probably a bulk of some of those benefits.

74:01 >> That's what I see when I utilize it with clients. >> Yeah. >> Like if we use like rea and we've talked before, Jake, like >> I I've seen as low as like 0.25. >> Yeah. And you're seeing anti-inflammatory effects. You're seeing people's joints get less painful. You're seeing people's skin get better. So that's I'm basing my assumption with the GHK based on my observations with things like Greta. So I I don't think there's going to be a huge dose response. I think probably a low dose is going to have some benefit there with a PA. I mean anytime we're looking at anything else that's that's you know having this sort of anesic effect like PA. What we want to be careful about is is this thing having a really significant anti-inflammatory effect as well because if you know we've got enough literature at this point to suggest that significant anti-inflammatories probably do blunt the hypertrophy response. Okay.

74:50 >> Right. >> And there's probably a timing issue there. So, you know, there's like essentially that that inflammatory response has a bit of a delay until when it kicks in and then most of that is happening like a sort of front ended. So, you know, we do the training session depending on on how much damage we cause will sort of depend on when that inflammatory response kicks off. Probably within about say 6 hours or so, we start to see that kick off and then it probably sort of tails down maybe over the next 12 hours or so. So, you know, if we can keep potent anti-inflammatories out of that window, that's probably going to be best. Where that gets really messy, I think, is the the variance between anti-inflammatories and antioxidants. And I don't know that antioxidants are going to have that same negative effect at that point in time.

75:41 And I think that it could be benefit at that point in time. But if a lot of antioxidants are case in in potent anti-inflammatory compounds as well, and so I think we see this blurring. I think this is the issue we're seeing with cold water immersion, right? There's enough literature now to suggest that cold water immersion blunts hypertrophy. I think because we see with cold water immersion obviously this this modulation of inflammation, but there's also an anti-inflam there's also an antioxidant effect. You know, we have we naturally will upregulate our own anti-inflamm god antioxidants within our body. I think if it weren't for that anti-inflammatory effect, I think there'd be a benefit to cold water immersion. But I think it's being attenuated due to that anti-inflammatory effect. So to go back to something like PDA or or anything else that could be having that analesic effect, we just want to make sure we're not going to cause this really longstanding anti-inflammatory effect that could then modulate or or attenuate the hypertrophy response. So something like a water soluble PA, that could be a better option there because that's going to have a shorter halflife, right? And you know for people who don't know like PA there's studies comparing that to things like NSAIDs you know ibuprofen aspirin and having as a significant effect on pain with things like I mean that they'll study things like headaches and migraines and and you know tooth pain and stuff like that but essentially we're just seeing across the board this reduction in pain. you know, picnogenol, pine bark extract. That's another example where we just see this generalized reduction in joint pain, body pain, back pain and you know, there's there's obviously a whole other aspect to picnogenol when it comes to things like blood flow and whether that could be doing anything as well and you know some really really interesting endurance literature on performance and picnicol. Again, if we're just looking at anything that's influencing this this pain perspective, this perception of effort, that's probably going to have an an advantageous effect in the gym. And this is a lifestyle thing. But to jump back to lifestyle, we can look at what other things increase our perception of effort. And there's good literature on things like phone use. Know how many times you see people in the gym scrolling social media? We've got direct studies looking at the effect of scrolling social media on your performance in the gym and it's not good. Yeah. Because you're essentially causing this this mental fatigue state in the same way. How many times do you have a client who you know they might work an office job. It's not fatiguing.

78:12 It's not they're not doing physical work but they're just exactly and then they go they train after work and their training is crap. Yeah. a client like that, you get them to train before work, they're going to lift so much better because they're not in that state of of, you know, mental effort, mental fatigue. >> So, it's all the same thing. It's all just coming back to how can we modulate or or mitigate some of the effects of this this mental effort or, you know, what supplements or or lifestyle things can do to reduce this this mental effort, this this perception of effort.

78:44 And it just allows us Here's one that's probably going to blow your mind, Kenneth. So all of this is >> I don't know if you can blow it much more. >> I'm I'm waiting to see your your face facial expression on this one. So everything comes back to central motor command in terms of when we're talking about motor unit recruitment. Okay. So I mentioned before we cannot recruit the entirety of a muscle. Okay. Now let's say you have a let's say you're doing maybe a a pec deck or maybe you're doing a dumbbell curl. Either one of those are good examples. If you're doing them bilaterally, you're doing them together.

79:19 Okay? And now let's say you you drop one side. Let's say you go to failure. Okay? So this is a meth method I would call physiological drop sets. You may have seen me talk about this maybe. So you're doing a pec deck. You do bilateral. You go to failure. You cannot do anymore. You stop doing one side and you keep going with one with just one arm. You can still get more repetitions out. Okay? Because what's happened is you've got this this this bottleneck of how much central motor command you can create or you can send and you've concentrated where you're sending that.

79:50 You're sending that to less muscle mass. So if we can concentrate where that central motor command is going, it's like splitting energy. Imagine you've got 20 things plugged into one socket >> and you're splitting all that energy across those 20 things. You now take out 19 of them. >> So you got this glute issue, right? Well, we can send more central motor command to the one part, the one muscle, the one side that's lacking. Okay? And so we can actually increase the amount of muscle muscle fibers that are active by concentrating that central motor command.

80:24 Now, the thing that's that's working against how much central motor command we can send is our perception of effort. Okay? Directly they they're directly associated. The more effort we experience, the less central motor command is being sent. So all those things are connected. You can use it. So you get someone who's got a lot of fatigue, a lot of mental effort going on, you can give them single joint or single limb exercises to make up for some of that.

80:48 >> So that's probably that's probably what my why my training is so drastically poor right now because I'm walking into the gym with brain fatigue. Whether it's jobreated, life related, you know, being online, you're it's screen related potentially. and then I also find, you know, I've got to get all these steps in, so I I absolutely hate the treadmill. I go walk with my dogs. I just go walk.

81:20 >> Y >> and that's that helps the brain fatigue significantly. But now I realize that I'm placing my training in the middle of my day, which is probably impeding my overall performance because I'm already fatigued on top of the fact that I'm recruiting both sides of my limbs. And it's like, oh man, you've just really messed up my day in the best way. I mean, it's like this is Yeah, >> go into the gym and and this is something else the silver era guys, the priest era guys nailed. They said go in, lie down, lie there for 5 minutes and just let all the worries of the day disappear. Okay? I'm not saying you need to go lie in the gym floor, but you know when you're driving to the gym, don't be thinking about work. Don't be doing just listen to whatever music you find motivating. Okay? Get yourself in as motivated state as possible. Do not go on your phone when you're in the gym.

82:22 Okay? Then >> so if you listen to music on your phone, how are you mitigating that? >> Just don't like don't scroll. Okay, social media is the thing that's going to be having that biggest effect. Okay, if you need to your phone and click skip on a song, that's fine. Okay, it's not so much the blue light and the technology that's the issue. It's the the mental effect of scrolling and having all this negative thrown at you. Okay. They they do these studies where people will watch something distressing and then they'll watch something that's entertaining and it's not the same effect if it's if it's not like distressing. Okay. Or they'll get people to do like a strip test. So they'll do like a mental task and that'll have the same fatiguing effect, right? So we just don't want these negative things thrown thrown at us.

83:05 Play music you find motivating. Keep your phone away if you can. If your macros allow, I would have some juice. Okay. And even if you just that, you can do that. And I would aim to have about five grams of carbs total per exercise you're doing. >> You probably don't you don't need to do it for the last couple of exercises cuz you're not going to get that blood glucose effect at that point. You'll still get the mouse receptor bit. But if you're really limited on carbs, then we could just do five grams up until your last or second last exercise. And what I would say is do single sets. Don't do two, three, four sets. do a single set of each exercise. Like I would put money on the fact that your performance will go up if you just do a single set.

83:48 >> There's not going to be any self-pacing that's going to occur. And if you get an extra one or two repetitions by doing single sets, where did that come from? It came from extra motor unit recruitment. >> Right. So, an anecdotal thing Trey let me know about the picnodule. And I don't know if you're saying it right or if Trey is saying it right or if it's the Australian accent versus the American accent. >> I don't even know. We because we place the the emphasis on a on the >> the first vow and you guys do it I think on the second I think.

84:23 >> Something like that. >> I just you said it. So, the thing is is like I'm in my in my mind I'm thinking, Jake is the smartest person that I know at this point because you've blown my mind so so much. So, when you say the word, I'm like, I'm going to say it the way he says it, but Trey said it first. So, now it's in my head and I'm trying to figure it out. But anyway, Picnodel, he was like, "Take that. Take some PA and take some melatonin." And I was like, "That's crazy." And I did it. And my training is drastically better when I do that. It's drastically better.

85:02 and it's all it's interesting about the timing. I've kind of moved some the timing around because sometimes I'll I'll get up. I have supplements that I have to take first thing in the morning. And if I know that my training is going to be in the morning, I'll lump that in cuz I'm sitting there anyway. But if my training is say midm morning to afternoon, I'll take it right before >> say 15 to 20 minutes before I get to the gym.

85:33 >> Mhm. >> And it's drastically different. There's definitely a pain tolerance effect that makes you push through sets and and reps in a in a different capacity than than not taking it. And I don't have any hard data, but that's just what I've what I've seen. >> Yeah. And some of that, so for example, the melatonin, most that is probably due to that antioxidant effect. >> Now, melatonin is one that I'm I don't know how much of that is time bound. Cuz if we look at the studies on melatonin, some of them, not many, will use melatonin before the workout or before the the exercise bout. Most of them will just use it in the evening >> and then they're jumbling all that research together. And so it's really hard to parse out. Does it need to be had pre-workout? Can you just have it daily and get that antioxidant effect and that's going to increase muscle recovery? I'm probably leaning towards that one at this point in time, but I wouldn't want to hang my hat on any of them. but then you know the other thing is going to have more of an acute effect, right? So, and that's the thing as well is like, you know, there's some compounds that I think are freaking amazing that, you know, one one that, you know, we've talked a lot about, Trey, is some probiotics, right? And there's there's actually probiotics you can get that have been isolated. This is just freaking nuts. They've been isolated from Olympic weightlifters guts. Okay? How ridiculous is that? And you can't find out who it is cuz it's like an ethics thing that I can't say who it is, right? But what they there's there's two different probiotics. And what they've done, they've done animal studies and human studies looking at this and inflammation markers go down and then we see muscle recovery go up from these specific probiotics right now. That is nuts. So we see performance increase. We see superspinal CNS fatigue is going to go down because there's less interlucan 6 which is basically the less inflammation we've got in the blood and the brain the less supinal CNS fatigue we're going to experience post-workout. So literally some of these these targeted probiotics can have this this muscle recovery effect, this performance increasing effect. But is that going to be time dependent? Do you need to have that pre-workout? No, of course not. So there's some compounds that if you have them daily, it doesn't matter when you have them. There's other compounds that have such a short halfife if you need to have them. I mean, caffeine is another good example, right? Data on caffeine is really good. You need to have it, you know, within a couple hours of your your workout. there's no point having it, you know, eight hours before and then you've you've lost twothirds of it by the time you train. So, you know, it's I think I think the reality is there's not many of these compounds that are going to be bad to have within a close proximity of your workout. Like in terms of anything that we've talked about that that helps, it's going to help if you have it close to your workout. Yeah, there's some things that are going to help if you have them away from your workout as well, but there's some things that aren't going to help if you have them away from your workout. So, someone's not sure, I would just say, look, just have them all sort of in the morning before you train or or you know, with the exception of caffeine. If you're training at night, then you could just have them all at night. It doesn't particularly matter.

88:43 But, you know, most these this combination I think this is you know, for me, when I look at workout supplements, people are almost exclusively talking about pump supplements. That's almost all anyone talks about. And then maybe they'll talk about something to help with like muscle protein synthesis, some kind of protein. Maybe they'll talk about creatine. Creatine honestly is like the most the least exciting supplement when it comes to muscle growth because really what it's doing is having most likely a buffering capacity effect. So basically what that means is it's going to delay the point at which you experience a muscle growth stimulus. So you then you get more repetitions out and you're like, "Hey, that's great. I got more repetitions out." Yeah, but all that happened is repetition six started producing a muscle growth stimulus instead of repetition five. Right?

89:30 >> So I don't think creatine is doing what people think it's doing. But what's interesting with creatine is all this research coming out now is slightly higher doses showing that it mitigates the effect of things like sleep deprivation. So, can it have potentially an anti- fatigue effect in that sense where maybe it's mitigating again some of this perception of effort stuff? It's having effect around, you know, brain creatine stores, mitochondrial function. Maybe it's going to help with perception of effort. Okay. So, so I I don't want to throw out creatine because I think it might still have benefit there, just not in the way people think it does, right?

90:04 >> It would have to be at a higher dose. >> And most of that research would suggest a higher dose. Most of those studies are done with complete sleep deprivation. So that like you know they're up >> which is a lot of people I mean a lot of people kind of suffer from that. I mean >> most people suffer. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. >> And and so when you look at these studies in in complete sleep deprivation they find that a lower dose so still a moderate dose has benefit but a higher dose has more benefit. So my question would be well what if it just was someone who's sleeping four or five hours instead of being up all night?

90:38 then are we going to get a you know standard or moderate dose might do the job there right so I think we're still working out the dosing thing but yes I would say for that effect we probably want to go in the higher end of what people would normally be dosing I mean I I see with clients >> and maybe this is I don't know if it's a a gender effect or body weight effect I've female clients I'll give them 5 to 10 grams >> and they they report like definitely noticing a change in their energy during the Most of these studies are using, you know, 20 g worth, right? 30 g worth. I don't think we need to go that high for most people. But that was a bit of a side note. So, so my point is most of these most people are thinking about supplementation as pump supplements or creatine. And I don't see anyone thinking about supplementation for central nervous system fatigue, for muscle recovery, for this antioxidant stuff we've been talking about, right? I think that is so untapped. And you know, we've talked about what five or so different supplements today. Who's who's using who who the heck is using probiotics to improve muscle recovery and the performance in the gym? Like no one. Yeah. But the but they're better. I mean, the studies on those probiotics are better than any of the the the classic performance supplements that people use in the pre-workouts, you know, beta alanine or lcitrilline or all these other compounds people are using.

92:02 Look at the data on hypertrophy impacting those. There's nothing off the ears. It's so minimal. >> But notice they're used because it's a feel-good thing. Like most people tingling, you know, >> I'm getting the benefit. I have a better workout. And I think that's why everybody thinks that way. Whereas if you use like like basis plantarium or like PA or pnog, whatever. Some people are like, I take this, but they're not getting the same feeling that they expect they should.

92:29 >> Yeah. It's almost like it's not >> like a placebo effect kind of thing. or like they're just not aware. There's other things of the feeloods when it goes to working out or anything like that. >> It's like saying with fatigue, people are expecting fatigue to be a feeling, but you can most of the time fatigue is not a feeling. Super spinal CS fatigue might be a feeling due to cardiovascular sensation, but post-workout fatigue is not really a feeling. You can go into the gym feeling freaking motivated. I feel so excited to lift and you can lift because you're >> fatigued. It's the same thing. That's such a great that's such a great like point and re I guess like a reality check for me because when you when you're not diet so like the thing about dieting I'm not I'm not on redda so I'm like I'm very aware of how hungry I am all the time right it's a it's a constant feeling and not only is that brought my awareness to that feeling, but it also brings the the other emotions that come up in and around being hungry. So, and also, you know, I'm I'm a father and I'm a husband. I have to control my emotions or the house isn't safe, right? So, I I have to be extremely aware of how I'm feeling on the inside, but also how am I communicating what maybe shouldn't be pouring out from the inside to the outside.

94:04 So, it's a constant sort of battle of like, damn, I'm hungry. And it's I'm I'm irritated by this thing that wouldn't normally irritate me because I'm hungry. And then now my because my calories are so restricted, my mental capacity and and the load that I would normally carry is drastically reduced and my awareness is in and around that. But as a bodybuilder and as somebody who loves training, you don't want to apply that to your performance in the gym because you want to drink your preworkout. You want to feel excited. You want to feel like that's, you know, that's where I'm going to go spend some personal time. But the reality is you're not prepared for that at all. your brain is tired and it's so tired that you're going to train like crap. So, I think it's that awareness piece where you have a lot of people who are drinking a preworkout and it the the the topical feeling of feeling fuzzy >> over it's louder than maybe what they've compartmentalized on the inside of them, which is actually I've got brain fatigue. And I find that with my clients, being able to have success with my clients is bringing their self-awareness to a place where they're aware of not only the emotions that they may feel, but it's how does it connect internally into their body? And what you're doing right now, unpacking all of this, is you're you're taking my awareness that I normally have in my day-to-day with my family and my clients and how I respond, but now I'm looking at a different aspect that I haven't been looking at because well, a lot of my energy goes into managing this area over here. So, it's that and we only have so much brain power and energy. So, man, it's been this conversation's been awesome.

96:25 I mean, >> what you point to as well is that pre-workout's almost acting like a ritual for you as well, right? Like I don't clients I don't know if you guys even had this. We had really bad lockdowns during COVID, right? like walked out for like a year and I would have clients where you know they'd be training in their home and their performance even if they had decent equipment their performance in the home was shocking compared to the performance in the gym and what I would encourage clients to do would be don't train in your living space in your living area yeah like if you can train outside in a gym whatever and make it make it feel like a different space right even if you are training in your living area actually spend 10 minutes making that feel different put up a and put it, you know, change the lights, put on music, literally move the furniture out the way, put the freaking couch upside down.

97:12 I don't care, but make it feel different. We're demarcating that this is a different space now. And I think in some ways with pre-workout, yes, there's the sensations and everything else, but in some ways that's what that's achieving as well. It's a ritual and it's telling you this is different. We're entering now into into me time. We're entering now into time where I can be a little bit more unhinged. I can be a little bit more aggressive, whatever it is. And so I think some of that is, you know, this power like I was saying before, you know, spend five minutes sitting there in the car listening to a motivating song or whatever. Some of that is just saying, "Hey, this is what this time is now." Yeah. I'm I'm switching out of, you know, father time.

97:46 I'm switching out of business mode. I'm switching out of whatever. This is what this is now. And I'm I'm going to try to apply as much of that, you know, mental energy to what this task is. >> Yeah. Right. >> So that could be part of it. I still think obviously the sensation is is going to I mean sensation is going to consolidate and reinforce what you're feeling as well you know >> right >> dog you know you you hear the bell you salivate you feel the tingles okay that's what this means I know what that means >> you're right >> that's great >> no that was good Jake I mean you kind of covered everything I mean Kenneth you just got to go buy all that add some sparkling water you'll be full >> I'm I'm going I'm do I'm going to do the juice.

98:31 >> >> yeah, I'm I I'll tell you what. I will I will implement everything that you've said this week >> and I'll send you a DM and let you know how it went. >> Yeah, I'd be keen to know. I think this single set thing is going to have the biggest impact that >> that's what I'm I'm going to do it tomorrow. I'm going to So, I'll I have three training sessions left for the week. So, I'll I'll do the the rest of the week the way that you said and then Monday morning or Monday it'll end up being I guess a day a day forward or backwards or however many hours between us. You'll get a DM and I'll I'll give you the breakdown of >> of how it goes. I'm I'm excited about it. So, >> sweet. Well, Jake, I appreciate you coming on, man. This is a good conversation. I mean, talk about, but this is going to be like fun. It's been a privile It's really been a privilege, man. I mean, like I'm I'm I've always been a fan of yours and it's like a I'm like a even when Trey told me that you were coming on, I was like fanboying in my own way. So, like I was just really excited to have you on and I just want to say thanks for taking the time out of your schedule and and speaking with us and allowing me to take your time and ask questions. Thank you.

99:50 >> You know, I love it. like, you know, there's people who are interested and passionate about this stuff and want to learn. That's super exciting for me. And, you know, I don't I don't get to have enough of these conversations. Usually people I talk to either close-minded and don't want to hear it or people like you, Trey, where it's like, "Yeah, we know all this. We've been having these same conversations for years." >> Right. So, this so this is this is actually where my mind is. I'm like, "Okay, I I talk to Trey regularly. I I I tout him as the most intelligent coach that I know from a from anformational perspective. He he's just consumed so much from you guys. And so then you just broke my brain so in so many different ways that I now realize that I know nothing. And I'm probably going to be like, "Hey, can you mentor me like you mentored Trey?" because I'm completely I'm my mind is boggled. So, thank you for that.

100:50 >> Absolute pleasure. And Trey knows this stuff, you know. So, like I think what's happened is you've allowed me to come into a position that you you don't have >> there's not space in your days to have these conversations with Trey, right? If you would have said to give me a two-hour presentation on on muscle physiology and fatigue, he would have said half of what I just said and probably added cool stuff that I didn't say. you know, it's you you've given me a platform where you said, "Hey, I've got two hours now where basically I've got your undivided attention and we've been able to to go into, you know, a decent amount of depth and some things that you wouldn't normally be able to do."

101:26 >> 100%. >> I appreciate, man. Shout out where everybody can find you because I want you to make sure you shout out where everybody can find like social media and stuff and then obviously shout out your group and the course and stuff like that. Anything you want to share? >> Yeah. So people can find me on Insta. I've got two accounts there. So I've got a training account and I've got my functional health account. If you look up my name, so Jake Dollar, D O L E S C H A L, I'm sure that I'll be probably the only person that comes up. My pink account is my training account. My yellow account is my holistic health.

102:01 now a lot of if if what I've said here around the muscle physiology is kind of like, what the hell? Where did that come from? I don't understand any. I thought it was all about muscle damage. A lot of what I've echoed here has come from what's called the stimulating reps model that's been proposed or put forward by Chris Beardsley. Chris is I'm lucky enough he's he's a colleague of mine. We're actually doing a course together a yearong certification course called transcend coaching certification.

102:27 We've only just started that. So that's running for a whole year. Basically each month we have a new module where we cover different topics to do with advanced programming. And then 2 weeks after that we do a tutorial where we go into depth into like case studies that pertain to that topic. we've just done our first webinar, our first tutorial is coming up next week. People can still join. if people are interested in that, they can the information is on my Insta but if they send me a DM and say, "Hey, I listen to the podcast with Trey and Kenneth." then I will set up a deal for you guys. So, we had an early bird deal that finished a couple weeks ago.

103:09 and I will set you guys up with the deal. So, if anyone's interested, shoot me a DM there. and basically anything else of mine that you're interested in will be on links in my Insta. So, if you want to whatever learn from me, I've got a a couple of training groups. I've got a an education sort of group where I, you know, post some of this stuff. I I post a lot of physiology in there. My mentor and colleague Chris posts some some physiology in there each week.

103:36 Basically, I I do like a daily lesson essentially so that all that info is on my Insta as well. >> I appreciate, man. This is great. Yeah, we'll get this posted and shared. But, we appreciate everybody listening. I highly recommend you follow Jake. I'm grateful to call him a friend and mentor and coach. I can tell you he's one of the biggest influences in my life in general. Definitely check it out. The course just started. It's great. I can tell you you're going to learn way way more in that course than you'll learn in this call. And then the group as well, man. Like that's one of the like obviously when we're messaging I'm usually like, "Okay, let's get up and figure out what we were chatting about."

104:15 But you're always one of the first ones that's dropping stuff that people are not aware of. I think it's cuz you do take that time. Like you're still always a student. Like I still view you like if I were to have a Mount Rushmore, you're on there, but you're still a student at heart and you're eager to always want to learn, which is I think is why we get along so well. So like if you're interested in learning just nuance stuff or things that you wouldn't have thought would have been out there like the group is like a good almost like a good taste like cost effective. I don't want to say cheap because it's not cheap because I I feel you could charge way way more than you do, but understand like where we're at in this world, but it's a good taste to learn more about Jake and what he has to offer. And also Chris, if you want to try that, then definitely dive in the course. And then obviously if you're looking to mentor with anyone, I highly recommend him. So I appreciate you coming on, man. Definitely appreciate it.

105:06 >> Thanks, Trey. I appreciate the kind words from both of you guys. And it's been an absolute pleasure and honor, you know, to obviously work together for a few years now. God, how long has it have? God, >> it's it's got to be It's around like four or five. I know Jake is six. Yeah, cuz I can't remember. When did the group start? >> Yeah, it would have started about 2021. >> So, I joined the group right when it like the first like the very I was very very beginning and I think I started mentoring with you either towards the end of 21 or the very beginning of 22. It was right around New Year's. Yeah. Okay. So, like >> I wasn't even sure how it was going to go. And it's crazy to look at how it's it's morphed into a million different things now, but it's going on four or five years.

105:54 >> Well, it's been Yeah, it's been an awesome four and a half years. Four four or five years. you know, I appreciate you. You are an incredible coach. You know, I would definitely always recommend clients who who are looking for coach 101 like to to go your way, especially if they want to do body comp stuff and compete cuz there's not many people who are integrating the functional health stuff, who have a knowledge over that, who have knowledge over how to actually train properly and work with people who want to get on stage, who who are enhanced, you know, that's that is not not a a combination of skills you see in many people. So, it's been an absolute pleasure working with you and Kenneth, it was great to meet you, mate. I I love having people who are interested in this stuff and you know your facial expressions if nothing else definitely made my my morning.

106:39 >> Well, I'll be bothering you soon so I'll talk to you soon. >> I look forward to >> I appreciate you guys. Take care. Yeah, thanks.