How Scapia is Changing the Way Gen Z Travels: Anil Goteti’s Story from Flipkart to Scapia| 1947 Rise

0:00 you decided to move back. What was the trigger point? I don't know. Call it epiphany, whatever. Call it gut instinct. I was married at the time. Me and my wife were discussing over a weekend and uh whatever it is, one Saturday I I think it's time, you know, if we don't move back now, we won't go back and India is going to boom, India is doing well. I don't know. It was some instinct that we should go back. How did Flipkart happen? Deciding to quit Mckenzie in 10 months or 11 months when it's such a big brand name is very hard.

0:25 But Flipkart again happened by serendipity and chance. I interviewed with five six folks now you will know all of them in the ecosystem bini suji tankit nagori a bunch of them dahul and I think the next nine years after that shaped me a lot in how to work in India how to build a startup how to grow a startup how to scale it how to deal with various problems was the founding story of scapia every December end I I take a trip and that year I was in damala I would wake up at 4 and while I was doing research just struck me just out of the blue why can't we build a credit card in India with has travel rewards which can be very powerful and built for youngsters based on what are their needs and I felt that day this will work. I just whipped out a document with two three pages as like this is it this is going to work. Sometimes you need that serendipity and luck. Think about a problem. That's the founding story. I feel one of the best products that any entrepreneur can build is when you can relate to the product and you yourself are the user. You know what are the problems? What are the gaps? Of course I'm not as young as what my customers are right now but I feel as young and I can build for them. So your advice to those who are abroad if someone is serious and want to come back there's no better time. We had Anil Gauti on the podcast. Anil is the founder of Scapia.

1:35 Scapia is a fintech company that offers a travel credit card for young professionals and frequent travelers. The card allows users to earn rewards and cash back on their spending which they can redeem for travel related expenses like flights, hotels, and more. It's designed to make travel more affordable and rewarding by giving users perks and discounts on their trips. We covered Anil's early life. Why did he move to US? His experience in the US, what did he learn there? Why did he move back to India? His time at Flipkart, founding story of Scapia, what is he looking to accomplish through Scapia and his advice to Indians who are living abroad and his advice for Indian diasporas thinking about India as an opportunity. We also talked about how Genz's and millennials are traveling and experiencing. Now I bring you Anil.

2:31 Anil, so good to have you on the podcast. I'm excited. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited as well. And uh yeah, it's it's been a while since I did a podcast. It's been a year or more, but uh yeah, thanks for having me. Absolutely. You're going to enjoy it, my friend. Uh look, uh Anil, uh you went to IIT. Yeah, I went I went to IT Madras. Yeah, Madas long long long ago. Long long back. And then uh you know you moved to uh US you did your undergrad and then you worked there for a bit and then you did your masters then you came back and you you joined one of the uh one of the most iconic company or I would call it more so a company that accelerated and kind of like put Indian technology ecosystem on the map. That's right.

3:19 Yeah. uh you were there for almost nine years and you did some amazing work there and then you uh started a company called Scapia which is more so helping you know travelers like me and them uh travel better including myself and yourself in fact you built it for yourself uh we'll dig into that in a bit but to start with Anil we we're we're really byproduct of our environment that's Right. Uh growing up, what shaped you the most?

3:55 Actually, I've been talking and thinking about this uh a lot of late. Uh my father has been a big influence on some of this stuff. Uh now people talk about startups and the ecosystem. uh but he was one of the early employees of HCL and uh probably third employee of HCL technologies. He used to sell computers to various universities and educational institutions in the 80s. Mhm. So when I was growing up, I used to get the best computers at home. Uh maybe when Bill Gates used to release, you know, Microsoft Windows 3.11, I probably had it 1 2 months later in my house. Mhm.

4:44 Um I probably got my first internet connection when I was in 7th grade. Um as you can imagine, uh this was in early '90s, right? A lot of this is uh fantastic exposure when you're growing up. that kind of uh learning being able to see what's happening in the digital world I think has uh made a tremendous impact in what I wanted to do in my career and learn and build. Mhm. In fact, when I was growing up probably uh it used to make me think a lot and I used to I used to dream about creating a product that would be there in millions of households. Mhm. Like I used to see all these windows and everything and Microsoft all that playing all this like I should have something where everybody should be using. Of course now the computer is not as uh popular as the mobile phone but the device has changed but the the ecosystem is something similar right. M I feel those uh five seven years when I was in high school and I got a lot of this exposure um gave me I think yeah huge huge learnings and I used to participate in computer programming contest uh you know uh things that would would not be accessible to many people. In fact, when I went to IT Madras, many of my classmates first got to use the computer in the first year in the lab, but I was using it for 7 8 years before. Mhm. I was not smart enough to get uh admission into the computer science branch. I I actually dreamed of getting into computer, but yeah, you I I got the next best branch which is electrical engineering. uh I ended up being electrical engineer but my heart and my passion was always towards building products in the computer science ecosystem in the world right uh eventually I gravitated towards that in my own way uh not not being an engineer but yeah being an entrepreneur building for that ecosystem but I I I think that had a massive influence uh and I think the other influence is obviously the the friends and the network and who I studied with.

7:06 Then going abroad after my undergrad that I believe made me a different person. I think I learned a lot because of that. I um when you when you go to a multicultural environment Mhm. and uh you see people of various nationalities and I went to University of Va Arbana Champagne right it's one of the really good engineering colleges uh it's called UI and UIU uh had the first uh transistor they had the first browser like Mark Anderson developed the browser there so there's a lot of history there right when you go to such a place you know that kind of talent that comes there Um you get to see how different people think, what they bring to the table, what they capable of, how creative they are, how smart they are. Uh makes you humble. Yeah. Uh also you build different skill sets because in India sometimes when you go to the engineering colleges and all the stuff you build a certain narrow skill set of being analytical, doing problem solving, figuring out how to ace exam papers.

8:18 Mhm. uh but uh I think the US education first opened up a lot then then after that working the professional life that shaped me a lot as well. So of course I think every 5 years 10 years I feel good that I have been um exposing myself to newer things and learnings and growing as a person. Early childhood to your question was all about getting early access to the to computers and internet. Yeah, I I think that was it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh while you were working in the US, uh if quickly, you know, in hindsight, maybe uh one or two things that kind of like, you know, helped you become who you've become today.

9:12 Yeah. Look, my first job was in the US. After my masters, I worked in Qualcomm in the Bay Area. Qualcomm uh invented CDMMA, invented 3G in the world, right? Uh uh I believe I learned a lot of professional work ethic, how to innovate, how to work hard, how to be ahead of others. Qualcomm was built like that. Qualcomm used to be always 6 to 12 months ahead of any other competitor. They always used to put the first product out in anything mobile and wireless. Mhm. Uh I happen to actually make a bunch of first 3G calls between Qualcomm and Ericson. Uh these are things that as a youngster when you're you know second year in your job I was probably what 23 24. Mhm. and I was living in the Bay Area. But people trust you to take responsibilities and make these calls between two iconic companies and that lays the foundation for the entire world after that to use it. No.

10:22 Yeah. So I remember going to Stockholm and uh we made the world's first 3.6 Mbps call. Mhm. On a wireless uh phone. uh me and two three other engineers from Qualcomm and then a few other engineers from um Erikson uh we were around there was a base station we had a mobile phone and then we make a call uh and then we're like wow the call is made like I mean imagine being a 24 25 year old being able to do these things where somebody trusts you to do these things and then you learn um it leaves a huge impact on you as to how you should be as a company, how you should be as a leader, manager. My first manager, uh I'm still in touch with him.

11:14 Uh amount of trust he used to place in me to be able to do these things. Uh coaches you, right? In fact, when I wanted to leave the company and go to business school, um he wrote recommendation letters for me and recommended me to business school. uh and uh he's added a lot in my life. Uh he probably doesn't know how much he has done as much as I know it sometimes. Unfortunately, that's what the world is like. But uh I learned a lot from him. Yeah. And I think the whole the whole company taught a lot of us youngsters uh to be able to solve problems for the customers and make the product so delightful, innovative. Uh yeah that I I think it instilled a lot of work ethic in work ethic. Yeah. And plus over there uh you know regardless of your age they'll empower you. They'll empower and they'll give you the confidence. And I'm I'm assuming this is what you're doing right now at you giving chances to doesn't matter how old or how young they are. Yeah. It it doesn't really matter. Even at Flipkart right when I joined the company I was empowered with a P&L in a business. Yeah. uh it was not like I had 20 years of experience or what not right it doesn't it doesn't work like that in the startup world or it it shouldn't work like that in the professional world uh some some jobs in some families of jobs may require some experience but largely it should be on what you're capable of how much you can empower the individual what is that person delivering and what is the promise that that person is showing and uh how you can make them successful so I think my entire five years of Qualcomm was uh I think just being trained as a professional. I think I would just trained I was just getting trained as a professional. I think that's that's how what I would think. I mean there's obviously a lot of engineering contributions and all of that stuff that I did. Uh though I got bored with it and eventually I was like I don't want to continue as an electrical engineer in my life and I wanted to build a business and I wanted to go into the business side. Yeah. Um but yeah, I I learned to work as a professional. Right. And you decided to move back. That was what year? 2011. So I did my MBA and then Mhm. in my second year of MBA I decided to come back over a weekend. Yeah. Over a weekend. What was the trigger point?

13:37 Uh and also uh you know we'll transition from there into uh Flipkart. How did Flipkart happen? Yeah, look, I I mean I I I went to uh business school at uh Northwestern Kellogg. I I um I interned at Mckenzian Company in the Chicago office. I had an offer to go back to uh Mckenzie in Chicago. Mhm. And uh business school is all about finding a job. Once you find a job, then you do what you want in the second year. Also, I had studied enough in my life. I decided to experiment in the second year. I was doing venture capital. I was working for somebody in Houston. I was I started a company. I I used to have a lot of fun with my friends. Mhm. Uh but just 3 months before I was graduating, um me and my I was married at that time.

14:29 Me and my wife were discussing over a weekend and uh I don't know, call it epiphany, whatever. Call it gut instinct, call it whatever it is. Mhm. uh one Saturday I was just telling don't you think we should just move back to India it's been n it was 9 years for me it was uh lesser number of years for her but uh I I was like I I think it's time you know if you don't move back now we won't go back and India is going to boom India is doing well [Music] um I I had I thought I spent enough time in the US I don't know it was just some some some instinct some instinct that we should go back. Uh and everybody was like you have a job offer in Mackenzie Chicago what are you going to do? So I did something very unusual. I I told the Mackenzie Chicago folks I want to move to India and transfer my off offer to Mackenzie India. Mhm.

15:26 And when everybody had an offer I had an offer everybody was partying doing everything else. Three months before I was about to graduate I came to India. Then I interviewed with Mcken company again. Mhm. And I went through an interview process. Then I was like man why am I doing this to myself? Then I interviewed obviously they gave me a job offer after that. Yeah. Then um then I we moved to India. It was a very hard decision.

15:50 Yeah. It it's one of those decisions where you get used to a country for 19 years. Um it starts to feel like home but now I realize it was not fully home. Mhm. Uh but uh it is a very difficult decision to you move you go in with two suitcases. Okay. When you move to a foreign country, like you you literally go with two suitcases. You've probably done this yourself, right? Um when we moved back, we had like 60 boxes, you know, I was married. I had this thing. You're really uprooting yourself. Forget the materialistic things like it's about, you know, you belonging in one place.

16:31 Before when I used to live in the US and I used to come to India and when I used to land back in San Francisco I used to feel okay I've come back home right now when I land in Bangalore the last 10 12 years I was like okay I'm back home right so I was moving and uh you know and my wife was pregnant at that time so even more difficult and I'd never worked in India I'd worked only in US so there's a lot of things to move and make it Yeah. And in fact, it didn't work out for the first 9 10 months. Mhm.

17:04 I joined Mckenzie in Chennai. I grew up in Chennai. I thought I'll go back to the city where I grew up. Mhm. My wife also spent a lot of time in Chennai. She grew up in Chennai. Um we then both realized we couldn't live in Chennai anymore. It was too hot for us. It was too humid. All our friends, our families were also not there. Mhm. So it just didn't make any sense. We thought we should move out of the city. Yeah. And then uh I was spending time uh in Delhi and uh different places in the country because I was working for clients and consulting for McKenzie. Then I also realized I'm I'm I'm not a consultant. I am a I'm an operator. Mhm. Right. Uh so within 10 months I took an even harder call and said uh I'm not going to continue in Mckenzie.

17:54 I'm going to find myself a job in the startup world. And these are difficult decisions also in the context of where I was in my life at that time because I had taken a loan uh for my US MBA. When I switched and decided to come back to India, the biggest expense I made an Excel actually in 2011. Mhm. When I was going to come back and the biggest line item was my US MBA loan repayment every month and guess what I think it was about Indian rupees dollar ratio was probably 45 rupees per dollar. By the time I came back in one month, that 45 became 52 or 53. Then suddenly my Indian salary shrunk because of the US loan I had. Mhm.

18:39 And then deciding to quit Mckenzie in 10 months or 11 months when it's such a big brand name is very hard. But I was not happy and I wanted to be in a place where I wanted to be in that consumer internet startup world, right? Um, Flipkart again happened by serendipity and chance. Uh, I uh one of my close friends uh he he now works for Phone Pay. He uh he introduced me to uh Sami Nigam who's the founder of Phone Pay and at that time he got acquired by Flipkart and uh he said my friend just uh and this company got acquired by Flipkart.

19:21 There's this company called Flipkart. I said, "Yeah, I've been seeing ads of Flipkart over the last 3 4 months because those kiddolds and those ads had started coming and I could see that there's an e-commerce platform being built." Mhm. And there were only few companies which were at that time big and making something in the world in India out of India like Inobi and Flipkart and rest were all unknown, right? Um so I came to Bangalore on a Saturday. I I never lived in Bangalore.

19:45 I just probably visited Bangalore two three times. I I I interviewed with five six folks. Now you will know all of them in the ecosystem. Uh Sami, Bini, Suji, Tankit, Nagori, a bunch of them. Rahul uh and uh Monday um yeah within a few days I met Samir again at the world book fair in Pragati Madan. M and uh I remember going around circles in Pragati Madan and we were discussing the offer. Yeah. Uh and that's how flip card happened. Yeah. Um I um and again it was very very hard extremely hard because you're leaving a company like Mckenzie nobody knows Flipkart uh it was just very early days things were people were just figuring out whether this would work um but I again decided to back my instinct and my gut on it. I uh I spoke to my father he was like are you sure you want to leave Mckenzian company?

20:48 Yeah, I he said yeah do whatever makes you happy. And I think the next 9 years after that shaped me a lot in how to work in India, how to build a startup, how to grow a startup, how to scale it, how to deal with various problems, how to go through ups and downs, um how to manage teams, how to be a leader, how to build products, how to run marketing, how to Yeah. Yeah. I I think pretty much everything I know now uh is probably thanks to the 9 years I spent at Flipkart. Uh like you said earlier, I think it's it's an iconic firm which actually has shaped the Indian ecosystem in a material way. It's trained a lot of people. We were all empowered to build uh and just grow and do what we do, right?

21:43 Uh I remember I I I my first job was to take care of the books category and I I was hired to do ebooks but then I started doing books as well. It's probably onethird of the company business at that time but I it was not like I ran multiple businesses before or I was a consultant and before that I was an engineer right but I was interested that and said go figure out the piano go it I was given a team of 30 people right off the bat.

22:11 Yeah. Um, of course you're not not only just the empowerment, but you also need to make sure you do well, right? It's all it's takes two to tango on these things, but uh um that's how Flipkart happened. Yes, that's the story. But learned a lot. Learned a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you probably know him as well. Uh uh forgetting the name. Uh H Hers of Grow Grow. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I was uh having a conversation with him. Yeah. So he was uh at UCLA. Yeah. Uh as soon as he saw saw news on Flipkart, I think Flipkart either had raised a billion dollar or it became a billion dollar company. Okay. That quickly just prompted him to move back. Yeah. I also joined right after that first round when not the first round when they became a billion dollar company. In fact, when I spoke to my friends at that time, they like it's already a billion dollar company, why are you joining now? It's like, you know, it's already overvalued, right? Yeah. But there's no right or wrong answers in these things. People will give different perspectives. And it's not that the perspective was wrong or right. But uh I was like it doesn't matter to me. I I just want to learn and I'll figure out you know money will come as an outcome later on. But eventually now it's a $38 billion billion that people didn't foresee of course even saw that and then uh Scapia happened. Yeah. Uh what was what was the founding story of Scapia?

23:51 Why Scapia? And I also feel there are a lot of credit card companies in India, tech new age companies which are you know helping increase the credit card penetration into in India. uh but no one was focusing on uh travel as a segment. Uh what was your aha moment and founding story? Look, I I I um before starting Scapia, I started on the firm. It didn't work out. So I I then decided to shut down and uh take a break. So I took a good 3 month break uh 4 month break. I thought I'll probably take 6 months or 12 months. You know sometimes you dream about some things and then it doesn't happen the way you you think about it. Right? After two months I started getting like this break is enough now I think. Yeah. You know when your break is done right. Yeah. So you want to give yourself time and then give yourself that break. Uh after 2 months I started exploring ideas and I started thinking about I think it was a combination of both top down thinking and bottom up exploration. Mhm. Uh top down thinking as to where is India now.

24:56 I was very clear I wanted to play in a B2C world because that's what I had learned. That's what I had developed my muscles in Flipkart on. I was very clear I wanted to work in a uh industry and vertical that I'm personally passionate about. Right. I also wanted to make sure that I build a business model and a proposition that is economically viable and uh I'm not just building it randomly and then figuring out money at a later time, right? And um I was very clear that uh it has to uh have a tailwind along with it and there has to be market forces that are actually shaping it.

25:38 Right? Uh this is kind of like a boundary conditions and you know uh criteria that I had mentally for myself right and then I was thinking of where are Indians going what are they going to do all of this stuff. So there were only two areas that I thought a lot of this will come into force. One is when Indians have disposable income and that's playing out but this was just around COVID before Omicron and all that stuff. It was not so obvious. Uh I realized there are two places that Indians will spend heavily on one is on uh high-end retail. Second one was on travel and experiences. Right? I had just done retail for a very long time in Flipkart. So in a way I was also like you know burnt out from that and I said okay let me not play in that domain again. I wanted something fresh where I wanted to learn and do some music.

26:31 Sometimes for me that also is a need personal need to play in different sectors and play those games or at least keep learning and so I wanted to I wanted to figure something out in travel and experiences and I was very u bullish on travel and experiences. I'm also personally passionate about it. Right. I've traveled a lot. I've uh and that by the way US uh uh exposes you to a lot of travel. When I went to the US, when I was studying in the summers, you just see a lot of undergrads and graduate students just going taking off to Europe.

27:06 Correct. Taking gap years. It's like gap years and other things are like evolving now. Solo trips. These are all things that are buzzwords now in India, but these are very common 20 years ago in the US. And also you you you took a solo trip back. I took a solo trip back then. Again, I was inspired by some of that stuff. And I thought okay again this exposure matters right? I used to take a lot of road trips. Uh I have a count I think out of 50 states in the US I've been to 41 states or something like that. So I've done a lot of road trips. Uh I've been to many countries. I've I've uh I enjoy travel.

27:40 I think it gives a lot of perspectives. It gives you allows you to meet new people, understand different cultures, learn history, enjoy different food. There's a lot there's a there's a there's a lot that you one gets to learn. So I was passionate about it. And then I was figuring out what business model because I had this other condition that I have to make money and I have to make sure that it's a capital efficient and you know the business model has to be good. I spent almost probably a month a month and a half uh in December 21 figuring out what business around travel um will make this work. And in India uh there are many travel platforms but there are none even today uh outside us I would say with all humility that uh serve millennials and jenzies in a in a way that actually appeals to them that caters to their needs and uh uh makes it uh I would say worthwhile for them right. Mhm.

28:43 Um but just building a travel company for me was not cutting it because people travel only maybe four times a year, six times a year. It's increasing by the way. Maybe before people used to travel two times a year but now it's probably three, four times, five times but there's only so much uh travel you can do when you have your professional and personal life. Mhm. [Music] um call it again some epiphany, some luck because uh sometimes when you dwell on a problem long enough is when you get a solution. Yeah, I was uh uh figuring out solutions around travel now pay later or figuring out maybe giving loans to youngsters because I know it's also hard for youngsters to travel. So you'll have to equip them with you know the right amount of um yeah I would say financials to be able to give them that you know ability to go travel. Sometimes uh they may not be earning enough but if they have the ability to repay it then maybe you can.

29:41 So I was figuring out maybe I'll do something in travel and pay it or whatever. Um it was December of 21 and uh every December end I I take a trip and that year I was in Dharmala with uh uh another family and uh I was thinking about what to do what what is the idea what is the idea then I was like uh I was writing a document I used to wake up at 4:00 a.m. in Damala when everybody was sleeping call it entrepreneur madness or whatever it is we all used to sleep at 9:10 and then I would wake up at 4 and I was like writing this document as to what this business could be what it while I was doing research it just struck me just out of the blue why can't we build a credit card in India which has travel rewards which can be very powerful and uh uh built for youngsters ground up based on what are their needs Mhm. And uh I felt uh that day this will work. Mhm. It was like some 4:30 a.m. somewhere. Yeah. I was pacing up and down the reception of a hotel in Damshala.

30:54 Uh if you had seen me that day, you would have seen like something something is brewing here. What is this guy roaming around randomly in life? Uh but I just whipped out a document with two three pages. I was like this is it. This is going to work. This is um sometimes you need that serendipity and luck when you think about a problem. That's the founding story. I mean uh it's it's a lot of uh top down thinking, exploration, dwelling on a problem. Mhm.

31:28 But that was December. Then you know there were a few people in my team who were there in the previous company that wanted to continue with me. Whatever the problem was. Yeah. Okay. And uh I'm very thankful for the trust that they had in me. It also put a lot of pressure on me by the way to start something that you know would be meaningful. Then I called them like I think this is the idea. So I said okay let's all of us uh talk to customers and do research as to what kind of a card would work, what kind of travel rewards would work, how would this be appealing. Next one two months was just that. Mhm. just every day whipping out a Figma page, showing it to customers on a zoom call. It was still Omicron by the way, so no inerson interviews and all the stuff like this during pandemic. Yeah, it was pandemic. So pandemic was ending, almost ending. But uh but I used to get a lot of questions from everybody I used to speak to. Mh. What if travel doesn't restart and the pandemic is longer? I like we'll figure it out. I'm sure it has to end. Like people have to go about their lives, right? So um that's when this whole proposition came together just through that uh I would say serendipity but I would say well informed by solid research over the next couple of months as to what would make a card with travel rewards work for customers. Mhm. Of course there's a lot of personal relatability here coming from experiences, right? I I've had cards in the US for 20 years and when I came to India again I had cards for 10 years right so um I I know what is a good experience what is not what are the gaps um I feel one of the best products that any entrepreneur can build is when you can relate to the product when you yourself are the user you know what are the problems what are the gaps uh of course I'm not as young as what my customers are right now but I feel as young and I can build for them uh uh but um I I believe that we have a product that actually uh is is working well for the customers and of course very early days and I'll be humble enough to say that we are not perfect and we'll keep getting better and better and we ship our products very fast so that it keeps getting better but I believe we've been able to address a lot of the pain points and the problems that people have uh and it comes through with uh uh not only personal experience but deep research. Yeah.

34:08 Uh so Anil you know for the audience uh in simple uh language so almost anyone can understand let's say a 10year-old or even a 60 year old what are the problems you're solving and and how is the experience better so let's say if I come on your app what would be the journey like what are the different set of products through which you're helping let's say a traveler like me Yeah, look, I think there are two two things that people look for when it comes to a card and you know what a traveler is looking for, right? One is just a delightful experience. I want a product that I want to use every day. I want to make sure that it gives me, you know, what I want in a simple, trustworthy, delightful manner. Right? These are loaded words, okay? But it's hard to execute. keeping it simple, keeping it trustworthy, keeping it delightful, right? You have to build the company, the culture, the team uh with this ethos to be able to deliver on it. That's number one. I'll explain more little more detail as to what that means. Two, being able to give them a lot of value that you know when I use this product, it gives a lot of value to me and value uh is not just about, you know, rupee value.

35:36 Sometimes it's also about uh what it's worth right from a experience or access or some things that uh other products in your life may not be able to give you right. So when uh we researched and figured out what our customers would like uh we figured out actually a bunch of things. one, they wanted to make sure what you see is what you get, right? For example, I remember having this conversation with a father and daughter um who went to Norway, right?

36:13 And uh they told me uh they lost the product, but they reached out to customer service. Then they were given tickets, they could come back. they were told exactly what was spent, what they'll get, what they'll not get. Uh being able to handhold them when they're traveling and not having any pain. Uh and he was also telling me, "But you know what the problem is? When you go abroad and spend um you get a statement 35 days, 40 days later, you think this is a certain currency rate, but when you come back is a different currency rate, but then it's already been 30, 40 days, you forget what it is." Mhm. and but it's been charged and you have to pay for it. But uh does it really enable trust when you don't get to see the transaction real time? What was the rate? What was the rate? You should be told the rate before you're charged, not after you're charged, right? Mhm. Um it's again simple problem but I don't think people have addressed it like we have done right and I'll tell you how we have done it. Um so people want transparency in many of these things. uh simplicity being being able to apply for a product being able to get it like our application along with our banking partner has been built in a very simple delightful manner though it's a application that has all the details of typically what a credit card application is but uh uh we have been able to work with the banking partner and give some experience which is very different from what the current uh uh products that are in the market have right um and also on charges and being able to show that these are the charges, this is what it is. And by the way, our regulator is uh very good about these things to say that the customer should be fully aware of everything that they're being charged and they should make a very informed decision. Uh and we believe in that you know uh from day one in the company, I've always believed that we should be showing this everywhere. We don't try to oversell anything. We try to make sure that we show everything very clearly. So that is on the uh the product transparency on the stuff but it should also be delightful. You like to make sure that the product you're using is something that you like to use, right? I mean why do you like these shoes? Because it's comfortable but it also looks good, right? It's a brand that you want to be associated with, right? So uh if you look at a card and how it is, you know, it's a bright looking card that people would love to have. The way you unbox, if you see a lot of the videos, it's an experience by itself on how you unbox, right? And when you use our app the every screen and every you know button that you press or anything that you do there uh is so simple and delightful people were like this is what I was looking for right it's a shame that people have to use a third party app to pay their bills today on credit cards right but we should be able to pay it on our own platform so um that's that's what we solved for in a big way second is on value is actually difficult uh to create but that's how you choose the right business decisions and strategy to make it happen. So we wanted to make sure the card provides a lot of value along with uh the banking partner.

39:26 So we offer a lot of features. We offer um zero forex when people are traveling abroad. Uh and we do it with a lot of trust because then you before you swipe you can actually check the forex currency converter as soon as you tap you'll see the transactions. So we give zero forex we give unlimited domestic launch. Uh but obviously we wanted to make a business model that works. So but you have some caveats right so you have to spend at least 10,000 rupees per month on the card right now right so um so then people are not just using us for the loan but also using the card regularly so it has to make it work for both of us right so for both the company and the customer um then for every transaction right every every purchase that the customer does uh we give uh uh you know um points and rewards that actually convert into scape coins and the customer can then redeem that for travel again. Right? So the way we think about it is you can travel better because you have let's say you're buying a flight ticket for 50,000 rupees somewhere but you have acrewed 10,000 uh rupees worth of coins then you are going spending only 40,000 right or you're going to buy two nights of hotel and staying somewhere but now you can actually do three nights because you've gotten one night free right we have a lot of customers who get flights and stays and now we have six categories almost right flights hotels buses trains um visas which is again very hard for customers to be able to do it in a trustworthy manner and give you a passport somewhere and get the visa and then packages right to be able to go in a in a in a group to a different country and experience it right so we have these six categories where they can use their coins uh you can tap everywhere travel anywhere right so you travel in style you travel better you travel more uh and that's the product proposition so yeah um Yeah, my my 7-year-old understands this. It's a simple product. Of course, they they know credit cards because they also see what's happening. But uh it's a simple product. It's not something which I have invented for the first time in the world. Uh this product has been existing for many years, multiple decades around the world. But we are here to do it better. We do it, we are here to do it in a way that's trustworthy. We here to do it in a way that actually is innovative that others have not seen it before. And uh we want to do it in a way that the brand exists in for decades together and customers associate with this.

41:54 Um today we have six categories. When we started and launched the product there's only two categories rights and uh stays but we want to make this better and better and better. We want to create more and more options like this, add more and more uh benefits and uh make sure the customer gets a lot of value while at the same time it's economically viable for us. Mhm. Yeah, that's the problem. I'm sure you're getting uh tons of uh customer reviews, love, feedback.

42:29 Yeah. One or two that has just stuck with you. Look, I think uh the the I send uh an email when every customer uh comes onto a platform uh saying welcome uh I'm a traveler and uh this is KPR and this is what we offer. we're looking forward to you traveling with us. And uh every single one of those replies I actually look at them and I personally reply just recently uh just about two weeks ago. A customer wrote to me saying um Anil, I've been searching for a card like this for the last one year and thank you for creating this product uh that I have fallen in love with. Uh I'm looking forward to using it over the next you know few years but uh everything is what I imagined it to be. Okay. Uh this was just this email uh a couple of weeks back. Mhm. But every few days uh an email like this lands in my inbox and it has happened uh whenever we have you know uh issued the cards to the customers along with our banking partner and uh I I personally believe that's what you're building the company for. Yeah.

43:57 Um when when your customers and uh uh all your ecosystem partners I would say actually even employees how they have fun with the product, how they enjoy it, how they enjoying building for it. Uh how our partners are growing. Uh when you see uh yeah maybe those positive vibes across that you know this is how they're enjoying it. Yeah. It's a lot of gratification for you personally. Yeah. Yeah. that it it makes you it makes you believe in your journey and makes you think that this is exactly the reason why I've been building this product and journey. So whatever ups and downs you have um you're able to actually go through them because of these small moments and obviously big outcomes as they come along the journey but yeah the ones that take you yeah you're seeing probably through scapia uh tons of trends around uh travel and experiences uh how is Gen Z and millennials how are they traveling also we can also kind of like compare that to the previous generation how differently they're traveling and also what are few trends that just surprises you the most as well. Yeah, look I think um now it's no longer a surprise but I I'll tell you a few things that are changing very significantly.

45:30 10 years ago, 20 years ago, people would save up a lot for travel. Probably think about I need to save up uh for 2 years, 3 years. I need to put all this money together. There's also a lot of other needs that people had, right? People had to save up a lot to buy maybe a mobile phone or a TV in the house or, you know, maybe go visit their family. uh right I don't think the disposable income was as high as it is now so people all those other needs are getting sorted right now so even if they don't have savings towards travel people are able to then say okay let me live into the future I can actually put this on the card and I can pay it in three installments six installments or maybe even the next month and I get my salary um I don't think this would have flown in the Indian cultural context 20 years ago like you know uh it's it's it's uh even I would say in some pockets today in Indian world it's like not seen in the right way but I think everybody's eyes are opening up to uh living in the moment and being able to see the world and you know learning from those experiences and having fun right uh like 10 years ago 20 years ago startups were considered very risky now startups are considered cool right uh so this trend is happening people are uh definitely looking to travel more and more and sometimes beyond today's means but you know from uh tomorrow's income and obviously one has to do it in a very responsible manner rather than uh be in a place where they can't repay some of the stuff right so second people are very adventurous and want to experience things that are not run I don't want to go to Bombay and you know probably be in the big city and probably see just the marine drive right you know uh which by the way people will do and there's nothing wrong with it but uh people do want to go and say I want to see um you know a cultural experience that I've not been to before right so uh people are looking to go abroad people are looking to travel within India people want to explore various places of history right people want to like go go to Megalia and you know experience uh you know like Chiapuni or go to a docky and the Bangladesh border and figure out you know how to do uh rafting there or yeah uh go to Kaziranga National Park right I I I think there's a lot of um exploration that is happening uh really good travelers are also explorers right they're not just travelers they're not tourists right so people moving from tourism to I think exploring and traveling uh and really immersing themselves in the cultures. Mhm. And uh going abroad and all that and traveling internationally I think maybe 10 years ago 20 years ago were bit daunting. Visas were much harder. People didn't have passports. Now the passport volume is it's you know you can get a passport in a day. Mhm.

48:50 Um you know you can go to Fuket you can go to Bali without a like you know any visa you can just land there goes you know uh I I think the number of Indians going abroad is just exponentially rising and that's why by the way another data trend that really inspired me in 2022 uh beginning I think Indians are number 12 in the world when it go number of people going abroad and if you look 5 years ago 10 years ago uh five 10 years ahead Mhm. uh we'll probably be in the top five, top three because of both disposable income and the number of Indians who will uh come right. So uh the international travel is significantly increasing uh exploration also um solo trips, women explorers going on their own. Uh I think safety is much much much better. People are taking much more informed decisions. Obviously there's a lot more information available to be able to make those make those informed decisions and go to places and like being in backpacking host and you know I did that 20 years ago in Europe where I could go to backpacking host but India it's not quite common people are uh obviously you can't be foolish and put yourself in unsafe situations but uh all of this is actually I would say in the realm of adventurous exploratory Mhm. M um immersive travel. Those are the trends I'm seeing. Uh there's obviously also other trends of along in the cultural domain of religious travel and for example we saw for Mahakum so many tickets and hotels being booked on our platform uh like you know for northern lights and uh for cold play concert.

50:37 Again these are all these are all immersive experiences in various forms. Sometimes it could be religion, sometimes sometimes that that band is your religion, whatever. Right. So, uh all that is happening. Yeah. And you can see it you can see it live on the data what we put on the platform, what which banners people click, which don't you know what leads them to what city. Mhm. Last year our card uh uh was used in uh about 110 countries. It's more than half the globe if I were to see the number of countries. Mhm. uh our travel platform took them to I think about 98 countries or so 97 countries um if you told me this 2 years ago 3 years ago I would have like that would be a good outcome but you know now I feel proud about it now I'm thinking I should cover every part of the globe and I should have 200 countries at some point no it's uh I mean you know I think either we already are seeing this or maybe in a few years we will see where you Indians will travel the way the western world has been traveling which is just taking vacation over let's say summer break or taking a year off which you mentioned earlier uh that's already happening and and we are traveling not just abroad we are traveling within countries and not just the regular places uh you know as you said like we are moving from experiences to exploration and could be one of the reasons why you launched uh unmapped that's product that you have where uh quickly tell us what is that? It is that it is unmapped. It's off the map. It's basically being able to do offbeat travel.

52:18 One of the other fun things about travel is to be able to meet new people. Mhm. And uh this is one of the things that we're enabling through Unmapped. Um what we're doing is actually bringing a group of strangers who haven't met each other before. uh to go on a trip and when you go on a trip with strangers uh you you you become good friends at the end of it typically right uh unless you really get along don't get along with that person but um like when I when I went to business school I remember I went on a trip um which was which was called quest where you go on a trip with all the incoming students um of course you split into batches so you go in a group of 20 people and the 20 people are not supposed to disclose where you're from. Uh what you were doing in your life before professionally, why did you come to business school and what industry do you want to go to and um yeah uh nothing related to professional life or business school.

53:25 Mhm. So then you start engage with people in a deeper level, right? Yeah. Um, so what we have done with unmapped is first created an itenary where people don't have to worry about anything about travel, right? We obviously customers have a lot of coins and they can redeem it for cheaper travel and then being able to make it more affordable. We also provide uh no cost EMIs for them to be able to book it. But most importantly, every single part of the trip we take care of. Mhm. when you land, the food, the places that you go to, experiences that you typically not be able to do. Like for example, uh the first trip went to Vietnam in uh a month ago or so. Uh they went on motorbikes in, you know, the city. Then they had a master chef competition where they cook the local cuisine with a chef.

54:16 They were split into groups and they had this competition. Um these are things that typically you don't do when you're uh going as a tourist, you know, when you haven't done enough research or somebody doesn't guide you enough, right? So uh of course there's a lot of charm in you figuring out traveling on your own because then uh you're learning on your own and you're making your own decisions and it actually makes you more confident and bold to be able to travel on your own and make all the stuff. But there's also a charm in sometimes in somebody else doing some of those things for you and immersing yourself in these very unique things that you don't get to do unless somebody guides you. Mhm. But to top it off to go with you know 13 14 strangers you have never met before in your life uh adds a certain level of adventure and I would say an element of surprise that you're looking forward to.

55:17 And the first group went, they loved it. They had a ball, right? Yeah. Uh we launched a second edition which people are yet to go. They're going to Georgia and again very unique experiences tied in Georgia. We launched it and got sold in a a couple of days. Uh but uh yeah, maybe in 10 years they would have had an unmapped trip everywhere around the globe. Yeah. As long as Indians are allowed there. But we'll we'll make sure they do. So Anil it seems like uh eventually escapia would be let's say uh for somebody like me I go on the platform I can get a card where uh you know the forex is zero wherever I swipe uh I pay nothing nothing in fees second I want to get a visa to let's say x country that'll be delivered now I want to book a flight uh and then also let's say I don't know where I want to go. I have no idea. Uh you will cate experience for me. I just pay for it and nothing else I need to do. Also insurance and other you already we already do that by the insurance. You're already doing that insurance. So quickly maybe in you know few sentences what's the magical outcome that you're looking for scape. I I think for us, we want to be the the brand that they trust to be able to use every day to be able to take care of their financial expenses, but through those expenses uh get rewards that actually uh lead them into uh good experiences uh in terms of travel and uh related things, right?

57:02 And along all of this stuff, we want to make it so seamless, so delightful that uh they don't have to worry about any of these things. Um when it comes to travel, you make plans, but sometimes plans change. So when those plans change, we want to be there for them. We want to make sure that we're able to solve for them. Sometimes things 95% 99% of the time things go right, but when things don't go right, we want to be for them. Um, we want to be that that brand where it's like somebody who's there to have your back but is not visible but is around to help you and make sure things happen like so uh and uh it should lead to memorable delightful experiences that they uh will remember for life right when it comes to travel people remember all the best experiences and also the worst experiences. If you lose a suitcase and you went to Turkey and just making it up like let's say you didn't have your clothes for one whole day, we'll talk about it for 10 years or your wallet gets stolen. Like it happened to me when I was on my solo backpacking trip where my pocket was picked in Rome. Mhm. It's 20 years, but I still remember exactly what happened. And um it's daunting when you're doing this in a foreign location, right? So um we want to be there in the best of experiences. We also want to be there as a brand to help when you are not having such a good time, right?

58:36 Hopefully it'll never happen. If it happens, we want to be so um yeah, that's that's the that's that's what we want to do, right? And over uh if I take a longer view, uh we want to take care of not only travel but also related experiences, right? There's a lot in and around travel that happens, right? So yeah, we like I said we'll keep expanding and making sure that customers have more and more experiences uh on the platform. Yeah. Got it. So look, you've come back uh you worked at uh India as one of the most iconic companies. Uh now currently you're doing your life's work.

59:14 Yeah. Uh India is only rising. Yeah. uh and a lot of people are talking about it and India has been rising for a while but people now you know the last let's say a year or so people have started talking about like this is the best time moving let's say in the next 10 15 20 years so your uh advice to those who are abroad uh you know thinking about moving back and viewing India as an opportunity and why do Do you think India is the right time to build? Yeah. Yeah.

59:52 Look, first of all, it's not an easy decision, right? And I I speak to a lot of people who are abroad. Many people have the intent, but uh it's a very difficult decision for them to make this, right? So, uh there are few things that one has to think about before making it. But if someone is serious and want to come back, there's no better time than now. And uh I believe even 10 years ago Mhm. Right. Uh it was a fantastic time, right? It's getting only better and better, right?

60:29 But every year you're away from the country, you're probably losing out on that time, right? Uh and there are many things that actually make this work. One, first of all, the macro and where India is, right? in the opportunity in India the the the way the country is growing the way the country is investing in various things and um what innovation is happening how people are actually being entrepreneurial uh what kind of new ideas and startups are coming uh how people are taking bold bets people are dropping out of college and building companies I mean these are things that are very inspiring right and um it's about nation building right so one it's about the opportunity two uh you should feel passionate about coming back to your own country and contributing to your nation. Mhm.

61:22 uh I feel that patriotism and you know giving back to your country somewhere that streak should be there within right uh like uh though I had an opportunity I have not given up my Indian passport and I don't think uh I I I will never right and I want to uh I want to serve the country in my own way right so uh part of doing my life's work is also being able to contribute to the country in my own meaningful way towards this. Right?

61:53 So that is the other one. Yeah. Third is uh where are you comfortable and where do you want to live your life? Right? This is very deep by the way. Right? People very loosely talk about standard of living is very good here and there and Indian standard of living is not so good and we have this issue that issue. But you'll have to look at it holistically as to what is right for you right. Um do you want to be close to family when tomorrow uh something happens to your family right or do you want to be across the globe where you will have to take 30 hours to come if there's any emergency right um you can think about all the pollution and everything around or you know the lack of infrastructure and all the stuff but you'll have to look at it at the as a moment in time where the country is going through growth And you know I'm very proud to say that this is India's today's infrastructure but you look back 10 years ago what was the infrastructure you look 20 years ago what was infrastructure you cannot see it as relatively uh today we're worse than elsewhere you should look towards the future and say where will we be in 10 years or 20 years and are we making the right progress and are we uh are we in a place that we will all collectively go better right um so you'll have to look at holistically and what is right for you there's no right or wrong in these things Maybe you would want to have the best of roads already or you want to have you know uh the the I would say access to all the national forests like in the US and being able to go on a interstate like in the US or whatever or sometimes you know it's like even water right in many places in Bangalore today you have to get water in uh lries and you don't get access to the cavary water but what problems and what you want to deal with uh what are the bigger things that are you're looking at right when you take a big picture as to the country the opportunities being closer to family I think it's an obvious decision uh but each person has to make it for himself or theirel and they have to come to that conclusion right of course if your entire family has moved abroad and you know they're all staying there um or you're in a field which is so unique that it's very hard to replicate and you're not getting that opportunity or maybe right but even those I think pretty much every industry function everything I can think of right now there's a lot of opportunity um some industries and some function some places are much better than the other mh um but one has to make the effort to be in the mindset that I'm moving for good mh I have made this decision Many people who do this do it as an experiment let me try it then it will fail right if you see it as an experiment then you are always in two minds I want to come let me see if I will settle in back whether I want to go back then you already then you have only one foot your other foot is there right you have to move with both the feet and jump right and jump and swim in deep water and figure out how to how to be okay and there's a rule of thumb that for every year you've lived abroad, you will have to give yourself one month to settle back in generally. Mhm. So, you'll have to give yourself the time to uh settle back in. But home is home.

65:29 You'll settle back in with all the things that you know well, but the country would have moved. So, you'll have to readjust. Maybe when you left in your childhood, the country was a bit different. So, when you come back, you'll probably be visiting. But every time when you visit, you'll see the change. But when you really come back and settle, when you'll see key Mhm. Wow, these are all the changes, right? So, you just need to look at it in positive light. Absorb all of that stuff and settle back in. Well, Mhm. find the right opportunity. If you're happy at work, professionally and you're close to family, things will fall into place. Things will fall in place. Yeah. Yeah. Way to think about it. I think it's uh it's it really comes down to what do you value? Do you value the right opportunity and and and the and and you being close to the family or uh is it the the infrastructure, air pollution and all that which are not which are not insignificant and they're obviously you know important. Mhm. But there are solves uh there are ways to actually figure out how you can contribute to those problems and make them better.

66:31 Sometimes you'll have to figure out how to make sure you plan for those things. Mhm. Um but these are smaller things in smaller things. Yeah. Yeah. And also uh you know as you mentioned over there of course you can take a weekend trip or this or that but well in India you can sign up on scapia and you'll get to do those things and by the way you can do all of that stuff and be close to family enjoy Diwali. Like I I used to hate Diwali in New York. Yeah.

67:01 I used to hate any of the Indian festivals. What are you doing on a weekday sitting in the office and you have your other Indian now of course it's become a multicultural little bit more inclusive festival even in the US but it's still not Diwali in India right it's not it's never going to be it's not Christmas or it's not Thanksgiving so it's not going to be um and for me all those are important I wanted to I wanted to do what I wanted to do right I didn't want to uh be in a place where I'm not enjoying the things that I care about, right? Uh that is a very personal decision. It's a very deep personal decision. So it's not like, you know, I didn't enjoy the stuff in the US. Like I used to enjoy watching NFL games. Yeah. NBA or going to the US Open and watching tennis matches. Um Yeah. But now I watch IPL. I I I missed the IPL when I was in the US. Yeah. But now like you know and and uh today we are announcing we partnering with RCB and doing something fantastic for our customers. These are the things that you enjoy like you know you build with Indian brands and have fun and let the customers do such stuff like uh you wouldn't have gotten to do the things that Anil is doing if you were over there. But anyway we we'll move to the last section. Sure. Uh Anil, what are you most obsessed about uh these days?

68:27 Uh outside of work. Outside of work. Obsessed. Yeah. Or something that's giving you a lot of energy. Uh multiple things that give me a lot of energy. Uh I have two girls uh who uh keep me happy and give me a lot of positive energy. Uh many times of course unless there's some fights or some troubles happening at home. But uh I'm obsessed about tennis. I play tennis regularly. I've been playing. You are a national champion.

68:55 You are. No. No. I don't think I can play you. You'll defeat me six love and I'll uh you know I'll I I I'll hope to win one point against you. Look, as long as you give me tons of coins. For that you have to get the card. But um yeah, I I I play the sport since my sixth standard. And I think some of these things when you pick up in childhood, they stay with you for life.

69:18 Mhm. Um so I I enjoy playing tennis. Uh I enjoy uh yeah uh sports in general and being being physically fit is mentally fit. Being mentally fit is also physically fit. So I believe in that and that I I like toh do. Um I have been keen on learning a musical instrument and unfortunately I never did that in my childhood. Uh so the last few years I've been trying to learn the piano and there's one at home. Yeah. My daughter is learning but it's something that uh keeps me uh uh interested. Not not as regular as my tennis but I've been trying. Um the other thing I'm very obsessed about is movies and uh binge watching. Mhm. And uh yeah this this obsession started in 20045 when I went to the US and I became a Netflix customer when they were selling DVDs.

70:20 Mhm. Uh but uh Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening I cut myself off everything and then yeah you'll find me at work only on Monday morning in between it's kids tennis. Uh probably going out to eat and lot of binge watching. Yeah. seeing seeing obscure movies and series from all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't watched it, watch Balog that I've seen. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever comes I am generally an early adopter on all of this stuff. Yeah.

70:53 Uh thank you so much. Thank you. Lovely lovely. Yeah. A lot of fun. Thanks for having me on the show and uh you know thanks for doing this. I think India needs a lot of talent from u all over the globe. Mhm. I think uh this is my humble request to all the Indians who are outside who want to come back. Uh happy to chat with them and give a perspective. Uh but I think there's a lot of nation building to do and a lot of talent that we need here. Uh I think it'll also be a spot where a lot of not only Indians but uh global citizens will come and work and contribute to India.

71:29 It'll be probably where some of the American countries or you know where Europe is where people around the globe will go and contribute to. I think India will be again that place in the next couple of decades and uh I think you'll you'll see a lot of Indians coming back. So thanks for doing the show on this topic and having perfect.