Steal THIS Ad Expert's Lazy Meta Ads Strategy In 2026

0:00 3 years ago, copyrightiting started like probably most people back then in email marketing. I currently work on brands spending between 100k to 8 million a month on meta. >> What did you do to step beyond that to the thing that actually is what business owners want to pay for? >> I create a good portfolio. Like some guys are so lazy they say okay I don't want to create a portfolio but then spend like hours in the application game and wonder why nobody's replying instead of like basically doing conversion rate optimization on your own CV. It's like like everybody sees the CV but nobody makes a big effort to make this as good as possible as you can and creating leverage this way and then from there I like still did a lot of reps but because I had this like asset I could get faster into the scene and once you have positioning that you can charge the higher rates. There's a guy in in the dojo that works with Tony Robbins and I said well how much would you pay like if you could buy that credibility how much would you pay to be able to say that you've worked with Tony Robbins? How much do you think that that purchase of that kind of proof is worth for you as a as a carpenter? Like what would you put on the price of buying that? And he's like over $100,000 worth of business for sure. Like having that kind of proof. So if you close Tony Robbins and you work with him for a year, even if he didn't pay you anything, you actually made $100,000 because that's how much it's worth to your CV and your position. But they're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars that you don't have realized in your bank account. And it's going to always give you the opportunities that other people have to work a lot harder for.

1:23 You probably won't even like get to like 10 or 25k a month for the simple fact because you don't have enough proof that people are willing to pay you the money or that you don't have the skill to like deliver for such business that high level. The fact that you lead with proof where everybody's making like claims lead with something that most people don't have. That's the real leverage. >> All right. So Sam here with Kevin just nice to have you here bro.

1:48 >> Nice to be here. Thanks for the invitation also to the beautiful town Cape Town and also being here in your penthouse. >> Yeah, it's great. We're uh we're talking secrets today and we're talking about how you uh you've created quite a quite a brand, quite a business for yourself in I mean you've been at you've been in the game for a while, but I would say relative to some people, you've done it in a very quick time frame and you were very consistent and you know you and your brother, you guys have really doubled down and create a strategy and you know making a lot of money for for a lot of businesses. So, thanks. And I'm looking forward to figuring out, you know, how you do it. And also maybe the audience could figure out a little bit about how to how to strategically build yourself up because you started with this skill and I think we'll talk about in a second. It's like you started here, then you built to here, and you built to here, then you built to here, and now you're here. And it's like that progression, you know.

2:39 >> Yeah. Yeah. So, a bit context about me. Like I currently work on like brands spending between 100k to 8 million a month on meta and it's some of the biggest accounts right now like one of the hottest brands also which I can't publicly name but that's about me like I started originally like 3 years ago with copyrightiting started like probably most people back then in email marketing also developed a lot of strengths in the email tech side of things and then later I transitioned to creative strategy and like ad script writing. Yeah, that's like how I got into this.

3:17 >> You were working on some email marketing and tech stuff for for a while. I think you you were in a situation where a lot of copers are in where they they have some sort of deliverable that they can, you know, they can deliver on and it's it's okay money, but it's like one time it's like kind of not the best pay. It's hard to justify like high ticket for it because the rorowaz is like arguable and like you know like the email tech stuff right like you you got in there.

3:45 >> The biggest thing there is especially with email tech if you're going into a business and position your first like an email tech guy you have like a worse positioning. The second thing is if people have email tech problems they're like deeper problems actually the entire business. >> Yeah. >> Nobody's reading the emails. they get into spam and promo tab, but the original reason is more likely that they're sending bad emails. And if they're sending bad emails, probably also they're sending to the wrong audience. And if you go back to like the first touch points, which is most of the time ads, they have probably back bad front end. And if it's like an entire thing that most people don't recognize and if you're talking to people who have bad email marketing, most of the time it's bad business. So it's >> working technically with the wrong type of clients.

4:33 >> That's like the biggest thing. >> So it's a really good point. It is actually the ads. Like there was one account I used to work on. It was making about 15k a month and we fixed the front end. I wasn't on the front end, but they fixed it >> and they fixed their targeting and the account we blew up to like 200k a month on email like within three months. And it's like I don't know your your CV or your brags on social media like on LinkedIn. I could say that I scaled, you know, email from 15K a month to 200K a month. It kind of be half true because it's really just I built the infrastructure that that would be able to sustain 200K a month. So, it's like that's truly that's truly what the impact was. It wasn't really that I took email there. And I think that a lot of email marketers don't really know how to position those results because they think of it as like, well, I did make that money. He's like, "No, technically all email money is really just a it's just it's just catching everybody that drops. It's like if you think of like a drain pipe, you know, there's like holes in the drain pipe. The email kind of like tries to catch all that water and like continue to push it down the funnel, you know?

5:38 That's sort of how I see email. Um, yeah. Yeah, and to your point, right, like if the text's an issue, it's usually because the the lead flow is not like that same list that was at 15K a month, open rates were like 15 16%. On arguably pretty good copy, like I wasn't a beginner, I was writing really good copy for them. Those exact same emails, we set up a new autoresponder once they had changed the traffic. It was like 42% open rates. So like I knew I was talking to the right audience but the funnel was that like they the touch points were like they were talking to the wrong people basically on the front end you know.

6:11 >> Um the other issue with emails that um well at least these days I'd say the other issue with it is it's just like the intent of a business owner like where's the business owner's painoint like to your point like if you got a if you want to work with a big successful business then the email is going to be better right. So, if they got a bad email problem, they got lots of email issues, then their front end's not so good. Um, that also probably probably means like there's a few assumptions here, but that also probably means the business owner is not really aware that of how to fix the front end because they haven't fixed it yet. It's like it's still broken. So, if like if they have a business, if you got a business that does fix the front end, they know that the best place to spend their effort is on acquisition, >> right? So, it's like then they're going to want to hire somebody for acquisition, not for email. So that's where all the best are going is to acquisition and create a strategy.

7:01 >> Yeah, that's like the one thing the also the next thing is if you look at the especially like right now with creative strategy or like even going like back then with could say like the scaling bros in the ecom space like everybody's talking about meta ads literally nobody talks about email. So the entire ecom space looks about creative strategy or how to make money with ads. The next thing is if you look or talk with founders like one of the first things they should do is either build personal brands or stand in front of the camera to record ads. So just the daily business because they're recording ads it's on top of their mind.

7:37 >> Yeah. So if you're talking with a founder, no matter the level, that's the thing that they're doing daily and if you can help them like for the time that they're spending there making more money, you're better off for the simple fact that it's on top of mind every day compared to something like email especially in yeah depending where you go info even ecom like retention is like an afterthought. It's like ah >> we have like people on this list we want to capture them >> but the first thing is like how do we get them on the list first or how do we buy and make them buy first. So that's like the biggest thing with creative strategy why it's popping up right now so much and why and in general it's like a better play to fix first the front end instead of looking at retention.

8:24 >> Yeah. Yeah. And then the other thing as well is that uh business owners will tend to spend their time in the place that creates the most emotional tension in their business. You know, because something Dan Martell says is that founders don't grow beyond their pain line. So there's a pain line that every business owner reaches. Um and when they hit that pain, they they will stall. They'll sell their business or they'll sabotage their business. They'll do one of these things. And so what happens is if you reach the pain line, you have to basically delegate the the pain to the right people to like be responsible for it or like set up the systems that you you can move the pain line higher up so that you can continue to to grow again.

9:05 And with with ads, I mean, how much more painful is it to spend, you know, ax is like processing hundreds and thousands of dollars. If an ad doesn't perform, you've lost money. Whereas with email, there's no pain there. It's like it's not immediate pain because it's there's no cost to send the email technically, you know, like there is, but relative to ads, it's not that it's like free. So, it's just not worth it's like it doesn't hurt them as much as this thing. So, they they want to solve this thing. Um, there's more of a bleeding neck painoint, you know? So, >> yeah. Okay. So, so then how do you make that transition? Because that's what you did. like you went from doing the tech stuff and writing some email copy and like kind of and I think it was a good phase for you, you know, like I I I watched you through that phase. I thought it was really useful because there were people in the like in the dojo for example and like I know other communities and like there's just like a general people needed help with this cuz they didn't quite know how to do it and you were able to support some people and build some relationships and gain some momentum and you know establish yourself a little bit but what did you do to step beyond that to the thing that actually is what business owners want to pay for.

10:11 >> Yeah. So, first of all, like I looked at this entire thing and realized from like another person I talk with that it's now a thing. I also talk with another like one of the best guys in the dojo or even internationally like right now like I don't name drop him here. You should probably also have him on the interview which I will tell you later. and he said that he started at an agency doing this and he did it for like when I talked with him probably for a year or 18 months and he was just in a breaking point to either closing a lot of gigs and he was like on the upside. So if I compared my journey to his he was like 18 months probably income wise the same level but he started with credit strategy and now he was like a lot for more steps ahead of me income wise and also skill-wise. So I thought okay if he does it and he's or like has so good results there I should probably also do it. That was like one big insight and so I started like first of all >> like internalizing the entire thing like what is creative strategy like looking into ad libraries understanding how to write ads like we have like the in copy system for example we have content about it or like lessons how to do it started doing this and the most important thing is I reposition myself in the market instead of saying okay I'm doing email I start I just literally just changed the enable the the name of myself and the biggest thing especially when I was starting out I I create a good portfolio like some guys are so lazy they say okay I don't want to create a portfolio but then spend like hours in the application game and I wonder why nobody's replying instead of like basically doing conversion rate optimization on your own CV it's like like everybody sees the CV but nobody makes a big effort to make this as good as possible as you can and creating leverage this way >> that's the leverage.

12:10 >> Yeah, that's the real leverage to the CV on like everything on the socials >> because people want to do like numbers and form from outreaches but don't improve the positioning as much as they can depending on where they are. And that's like what I focused first and then from there I like still did a lot of reps but because I had this like asset I could like get faster into the scene. That's good to know that that was like that useful for you. There's a quote um I I'm pretty sure it's it was said by Abraham Lincoln, but I'm not actually sure if it was his quote, but it's like the idea is if you have six hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend the first four hours sharpening the axe, you know? So, it's like you, you know, you got to get an outcome. You got to spend all your time on the stuff that creates the highest leverage. And before we before we go into like the application of that and talk about like where the highest leverage points are on other parts of the business cuz like obviously conversion rate optimization on a CV, there's probably some parallels in cred strategy like optimizing the conversion rate like how you do that and how authority plays into that and all these things. However, when it comes to our industry, just from like a growth standpoint or like a perspective standpoint, something you brought up actually is interesting. Like you you talked about how somebody made a lot more money in the same sort of time frame because they focus on a different vehicle and they were like doubling down on the creative strategy stuff. And what's what's really nice is that you you saw it and you just embraced it and went with it. And it's like some people would consider embracing it and accepting it at that point a loss for them because now they've it's like they perceive that as a loss for them. Like oh this guy made more money. He made a better decision than me. I actually failed because he's further ahead now. I made the wrong decision for a year and a half. And that acceptance of that loss or that that mistake, if you want to call it a mistake, is such a hit to the ego that some copyriters and some marketers and business owners, they won't make the shift because it's too hard to like accept you lost a few years. You can perceive it as a loss.

14:18 Like, oh, I lost these few years of my life because I didn't do it. Like, I' I've had this with a couple of copywriters. Obviously, as a coach, this is where I see where I've seen this. there there'll be a cooperator that joins us in the dojo, you know, in 2022 and he's got a friend that doesn't join in 2022 for whatever reason. And so then the one guy goes goes ahead and within 2 3 years he's making like 20 20 25k a month, you know, >> and his friend is still so struggling.

14:46 And that friend like knows me and like can within reasonable means afford to get coaching from me. But it's like well now if I ex if I do it now then like I've accepted that you know I made the mistake of like not joining when my friend did two years ago and like that's too much for me you know and I think with coaching maybe it's not as common like I've just seen that once or twice as a few carpenters will tell me man like I saw you guys doing stuff I saw you guys making a lot of money in the dojo and I didn't uh I didn't really think I needed it and I kind of regret I didn't join sooner and like yeah I get that maybe because we're on an interview and like it's on YouTube and it's public facing that sounds self- serving that.

15:24 But like the principle behind it was not really about my my community. It's just more like I made that mistake too where it's like you you see somebody that did something and they made the right decision and it paid off and you didn't do that because you were ignorant of what you could have b how you could have benefited and and then uh you know you you um you don't want to do it then because then it's like too hard to accept the loss. And I just think that that's such a such a dangerous way to make like that that that's when Hozi will say something like, you know, you let a bad decision burn you twice because you didn't take action on the thing that you realized could have been the right thing and then later on you don't do it later because you didn't do it this time or something cuz you like you don't want to. Yeah. It's like it's it's really dangerous. So it's cool that you uh know you you saw that perspective and I think we always got to keep looking at that and like are we you know that's that's good like every 3 months to just like do a refresher like am I am I directionally am I going in the right direction or is it like maybe time to like veer into slightly different direction based on the market like the faster you can create that cycle for anybody listening you don't have to you you can avoid this thing where you you're here and you like look to the side and everybody went this direction and it's like been like 6 months and then you're like crap I have not like extra effort to course correct. It's like not a pleasant experience, you know.

16:45 >> Yeah. Like also probably big thing with me is that like creative strategy is like a big thing now. It was big thing like like 3 months ago like especially in 2026 especially with Andromeda but I was also doing it before then. So I had like also a little you could say like upside in this case because I was already building case studies before Andromeda was coming out. M >> so that's like also another benefit I had there like in general like if it's about like position yourself with the business like before for example I work in an agency right now and like most of my case studies come from this agency work and at the start I it took some you could say like quite a lot not courage but I hit an ego that to say okay I want to work for less money but I have in at least consistent work where I can build my portfolio instead of doing application after application with like a bad position like some people are not willing to do at least like for a certain time frame they say okay I'm not there where I can close these gigs right now but I'm willing to sacrifice like income wise to build my positioning for like a short time even if it's like 3 months or 6 months some people are too proud of that never do it and then like I know for example in the last year positioning wise I made like more like not an effort but like a lot better positioning right now in like the last year compared to the what I did in the last two years.

18:14 >> M >> that's like half the time and it's crazy how fast you can do it if you're at the right spot but some people are not willing to like dive into such an opportunity even it's not like super attractive money >> work. So why do you think that is? So like one of the major reasons for me at least especially if you're then selling the dream of copyrightiting with the classic 10k or other things >> especially most coaches in the industry are selling okay is saying basically you don't need skills you just need to close clients and make money but nobody actually talks about things like positioning like having the skills so you can build this positioning and once you have positioning that you can charge the high rates >> because most people are just selling the dream and especially If you like have these beliefs, you could say that you should be getting a certain amount of pay for your work, even if you don't have any proof or results, especially in industry like copyrightiting, which like simple as it sounds, especially with AI these days, like everybody can write.

19:14 But only a few can write that it actually sells. And if you don't have the proof that if you write something and it gets shown to the public and it sells, you're basically just a writer, not a copywriter. >> Mhm. And that's like the biggest thing especially in the entire copyrightiting industry that most people see it just on a means to an end to make money. Not that you're building a career which can lead into like in your case Matthew you started also as a copyriter but now you're building like a personal brand with coaching and a business not just copyrightiting as a service but also other things around. And most people don't see it as a starting point for example.

19:53 >> Yeah. >> So over the last year I've seen something I've never seen before. copyriters and marketers, they're making more money than ever before, especially the top 1%. And if you want to be one of them and you want to join us and you want to get, you know, insights into exactly what's happening in our industry and also get my raw and unfiltered thoughts, the stuff that we're not sharing here on YouTube, then apply to join my email list at list.copyrighting.org and uh yeah, I'll see you in my next email. Now, let's get back to the video.

20:20 >> I think that's really good. I think it's Yeah, it's like a type of ego thing. I think the the the issue I always have with like the mindset sphere of our industry is we always just kind of throw labels on stuff and then kind of just dismiss it as a label. But there's like versions of ego, you know, there's like versions of there's versions of ego, there's versions of laziness, there's versions of shiny object syndrome. And putting them all in the same box sometimes, you know, it kind of dilutes the the specific issue. So like in this case I think we're talking about a form of ego which comes from a place of fear of loss you know >> and it's like feeling of if I settle for this gig I'm not going to get that dream income that I actually got into this industry for I'm accepting that I failed at my goal you know it's like that's a very different type of ego to somebody that's like I know everything you know so that sense of self is a good thing and I think that being able to put into the right perspective because you see the the bigger picture of like why you're doing it. I think it then it's not really a mindset issue, you know, like in this case it's really just one of those things where you know, yeah, like you just need positioning. You just need to have better positioning. Like it's not that complicated. So how much is positioning worth? And this is what I sometimes say like I said this to um I don't remember who I said it to but there's a guy in in the dojo that works for Tony Robbins, you know, and I said, "Well, how much would you pay?" I asked the newer coperator, "How much would you pay?" Like if you could buy that credibility, how much would you pay to be able to say that you've worked with Tony Robbins? How much do you think that that purchase of that kind of proof is worth for you as a as a coper? Like how many clients do you think what do you think what kind of business do you think you'd be able to generate with that kind of proof to the point where what would you put on the price of buying that? And he's like over $100,000 worth of business for sure. Like having that kind of proof. And so then the question becomes like, so if you close Tony Robbins and you work with him for a year, even if he didn't pay you anything, you actually made $100,000 because that's how much it's worth to your CV and your positioning. So it's like better way to think of the the the only resource is not just the income.

22:28 It's like the the results that you collected for yourself over the last year. They're worth hundreds of thousands of dollars that you don't have realized in your bank account, but it's then it's the stuff that's solidified you and it's going to always give you the opportunities that other people have to work a lot harder for. They have to spend a lot more time on outreach and applications and and fight their way to get things that you now have, which is leverage. Yeah. I I just think that that's something that people um tend to not see. And and this is also I mean maybe this is a good segue into like how other businesses have done it like right he just realizes that there's better there's better things to do than just cash grabs like with his books.

23:06 >> Yeah. So before I go into that, like you talked about like the income and the potential income, like I talk with my brother about this, especially how I look at it, like every copy piece or every client that I work with, they're paying obviously me money, but I'm thinking about like the work that I do with them, that should pay me dividends for my career. M. >> So every hour, every like dollar they pay me, that should give me like not a specific amount like $10 or something, but it should always be a dividend behind it. So it's also how I like see how which clients I pick. For example, should I only do this for cash or is it help me with my future positioning? So if I work with this client, does it help me to make more money in the future?

23:51 That's like a big thing. And that's also like a really good transition into how Hamozi does it. Like if you look at Tomozi, his entire personal brand like a lot of people talk about content or probably how he structured his ads for especially with his money models launch or like in general how he did his webinar. The biggest thing that nobody looks at especially from a like copywriting perspective is you have like three things in copy and the first two is what like most people can everybody can do. The third thing is that you actually have to build and the first thing is simple words. Mosi talks about a lot. You need to use simple language.

24:29 Okay, that's good. Next thing is with big promises. Everybody can make big promises. But the third part is with the critical part is how much people are trusting you because you can do the simple language that people understand you. You can do the big promises that they want to take an action but they need to have the trust to do the action. So the more proof you have, the smaller you make the bridge for for example that they or the jump they need to take. So if you have like little proof, they need to do a giant leap to make the action.

25:03 But you have a lot of proof, it's for them like always a smaller jump and that confirmation like a lot more trust and easier to do the action. And tying this back to >> Alex Samozi >> like if you look back into like when he started gym launch >> and how he like before he did it as a licensing business he had like his own gyms then he started to doing it for several other gyms. He had like at least I think 30 or 40 launches until he did made it a licensing business. So he had like one business then he had like three gyms. I'm not sure how many was there several gyms. Then he started doing for a lot of gyms and he had like always more proof until he started the licensing business. Then when he started the licensing business with gym launch he already had like so many people helped. Then we started with the exit with acquisition.com he already had like one not only one like three successful businesses >> and how many people in the space had this especially how he did it combined info with ZAS and ecom and build a business around it. And if you look at like one like form of proof that is also demonstration is every book launch of his was a demonstration for the people.

26:15 And he said it on his $1 million leads event that his $1 million offer book was a demonstration itself. He said like if you have a good offer people will talk about it even without marketing. And until $1 million leads he never really talked about the book. He said I have a book if you want it get it not anything else. And it was still like the number one bestseller until he launched another book. And with the one minute leads event, he didn't like sell like anything bigger there compared to one in Molly models. But he said, "Okay, I can get a lot of leads." He wanted to make a point, demonstrated, and he showed in his book and in the live demonstration how many leads you can get. So he had like also improved his positioning. And then for the last launch with money models, there was like he had like built this proof up to this point where he had like two best sellers already like companies doing so much money and then he had so much proof for this entire launch compared to like most people in industry. Nobody in the industry had this. And then of course the the launch with $1 million like in two or three days. Like nobody did this before. Like some people in some spaces said, "Oh, it was like if I would do the ads I would do better." But like nobody recognized that he had the proof and the personal brand to actually pull this off.

27:37 >> And then his book $100 million Money Models. >> Yeah. >> Made $100 million which I think was beautiful. It was like very poetic. >> Yeah. That's very poetic and it was like a full circle moment that he talked about always about $1 million models and then he did it like in a one launch and then again if you look at this recent YouTube videos he talks about it that he >> like again repositioned himself even more as an expert >> because now he's got all three.

28:00 >> Yeah, he got all three and also this $1 million launch and that nobody has in industry. That's like like what almost nobody does that like I think if you Alex Mosi probably won't uh like say it but I know the CMO who started with him and the mentor from him and at least from behind the scenes I know that it is that he built this from the scratch and probably had this like long-term vision that he wants to build it like this.

28:27 There are very few personal brands to say from day one, okay, I want to build proof a personal brand. And the way he did it with different big launches, like nobody did it this way until now. >> So over the last year, I've seen something I've never seen before. Copyriters and marketers, they're making more money than ever before, especially the top 1%. And if you want to be one of them and you want to join us and you want to get, you know, insights into exactly what's happening in our industry and also get my raw and unfiltered thoughts, the stuff that we're not sharing here on YouTube, then apply to join my email list at list.copyrighting.org.

29:01 And uh yeah, I'll see you in my next email. Now, let's get back to the video. I think the rule of three is an incredible form of proof that, you know, when you've achieved something once, it's it's it's often easy to say it's lucky. If you've done it twice, you can still say maybe somebody's lucky, but maybe there's something here. There's more curiosity behind it. The third time it's sort of okay, you know, like in soccer for example, if somebody scores a hat-tick, they're like a very good soccer player. You know, it's just like of course, you know, Cristiano Ronaldo's done it. Wayne Rooney's done it. I'm not a big soccer guy. I used to watch in soccer as a kid because it's popular in South Africa. But winning three times in sport is very very well respected. Even in like I think a tennis, tennis is a sport that my dad enjoys.

29:49 >> You know, uh Roger Federer, Rafael Nadell, Novak Jovovich, they've won um Wimbledon. I think they've all won it over three times. And that's what makes somebody great in many sports. And so I learned that concept from Jeff Spencer actually. He's a he's a business coach and he talks about this. And we see rule of three in copyrighting as like a hypnotic technique, like pattern interrupting technique. The rule of three is also a very very powerful way to demonstrate proof because you're giving the mind three versions of something to to lock in. Um, and I like what you said about the sales cycle being shorter. Um, based on the fact that there's more proof, right? Or like maybe not just sales cycle, maybe also just like the psych like the marketing cycle, like the psychographic progression.

30:29 >> I found that to be true for my business like with the dojo, we don't do like a sales call process. You know, I do take some calls sometimes with some copyriters are like, you know, need to chat about some things with me, but my sales process with um with my mentorship and my coaching business, I guess it's a mastermind, you know, now >> more than it is a coaching business, but with the mastermind, the sales cycle is you could say it's pretty long because there's a lot of content and consumption. But when it comes to the actual marketing where I actually do like where pitch very very very very small it's like pitch very brief conversation um over text message a Google doc with with all the the the stuff but that Google doc you've seen it it's like my my my proof stack is like almost 200 pages of testimonials on a Google doc like it's just and I literally built the whole coaching business with proof that's all I did is like for the first six months on Facebook I started posting. I had like one photo of me and the rest of those six months was just screenshots of people winning. And um maybe I lucked my way into that. Maybe that's just because that's just to me just felt like intuitively the best way to do it because I didn't have some sort of other I didn't have anything else to say. Like I don't want to make promises. I wanted to just back it up.

31:45 >> But like as I've been going in the industry, I've started to realize like that's literally that's literally how you zig lava and zagging. Everybody just keeps competing on promises and trying to differentiate on the promise and then using AI for volume output and it's like if you just play smart as a marketer and you just zag you optimize for proof, you know, it's not tangible immediately. You don't capture all those sales immediately, but over time it compounds and compounds and compounds and like now now it compounds to the point where you're in my penthouse. So, thank you for coming. But like it's it's great to have that here, you know. So to prove for like really good example for proof is especially if you look at the nine figure e-com brands in the entire space you can look at them like how did it long did it take them to get from zero to 9 figures >> like some took like 3 years some four years some 5 years even some brands for example like Kylie Jenner she has like one of the biggest personal brands in the entire world but she took more than a year but if you look at someone like IM8 they have so much proof like from day one they never sold a product. They had more proof than their biggest competitor AG1.

32:57 >> They had like a bigger scientific team. They had like a more educated formula like an NSF certification. Like I'm not sure if it it is this way. Need to double check it. But I think like once I made brought out their product AG1 saw okay I need to add something to our formula to compete with them and also started I think I'm not sure need to double check the fact but they started also to do an NSF certification to to have the same proof or like catch up with the proof that they had and literally IM8 like if I think I looked it up before the interview was like 10 months or 11 months that they went from zero to 100 million like nobody did it this fast in the entire supplements.

33:37 space. Everybody's talking about well they have like super crazy CRO or like good like ads or even like some the soft launch of David Beckham with the personal brands but nobody talks about the proof the personal brands that stand behind this entire thing. And even if you look at them like from one year ago they only had David Beckham. Three months later they had Ariana Sabalenko. Three months later they had Ollie Burke Burman I think is his name. Formula 1 driver. I think he had recently the title's youngest British Formula 1 driver. And then now they got a big NBA player who was like I think several times Hall of Famer or like best player of the year. And they keep doing that.

34:17 >> They keep adding proof, keep getting their proof like from tennis to Formula 1 to basketball getting into these audiences just through a big personal brand who works with them. I'm not sure who makes these decisions but that they're really smart that they do these decisions that they keep improving their positioning because most brands like for example AG1 they don't do it the only thing that they have is probably Huberman but if you look at the website for example Huberman is only like recommending it >> but the scientists that work there are actually involved in the product creation are advising like what do we want inside how do we formulate it together that's like one of the biggest differences if you look at like proof in the entire like e-commer for example and how fast you can scale like everybody's talking about scaling but like what ads do we need to make like if we want to do now like advertorials or CRO like building funnels but nobody says okay like when we at day one like where are we three months later not just selling more products or getting reviews that at least in my opinion few and fewer people actually care about like how much are you selling and how many reviews you got it's about like do we have like influencers that genuinely recommend our stuff because if I know a person and follow them and they start saying okay for example this mushroom coffee I really like this stuff and nowadays with AI like the only thing I can probably trust compared to like okay this review is probably AI or this how many people bought like especially in the blackhead space it's all most of the time fake so people >> probably start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start stop start believing this stuff so you need to go to the things that people are still believing it that's probably also the long-term to go this this route and as crazy as it sounds like you have to build the proof every time to scale otherwise we'll hit the ceiling.

36:06 >> H I just need to implement this myself. I like it so much. Huh? Yeah, that's very cool. Like we talk about proof and it's like oh yeah, you know, but we don't actually talk about proof. And I I've seen this with VSSLs. any newer copyrighters, they will they'll start with an intriguing lead or like a hook or whatever you want to call it beginning to get attention and then they kind of build it for like five, six, seven sentences and then they say um now before I share with you blah blah blah blah blah you know my name is and then they like my name is this and I'm from this and they have a little section for proof >> and that little section is the only place in the entire piece of copy that they're putting proof >> and then they just go back to promises stuff again.

36:53 >> And one of the things I started doing a few years ago was I was saying, I hate this section. It's so boring. Like, hi, my name is that 5 minute or 3 minute section is like some of the most boring copy and it takes people completely out of the the promise and the simple language. Why can't we just have simple language and promises and proof throughout the copy? Why does it need to be a standalone section? And sure enough, that was my hunch on it. All the best copyrighters are doing that. Like if you look at all the top ads in let's say like B2B agency world like let's just take Sabri Subie's ads it's like within the first three sentences his promise is almost literally proof like the way that they do the promise is proof and like Damato he he's a three time exit you know he's done three exits for software or tech companies there's that rule of three again it's like you know it's better than two it's like he's done it three times a lot of the headlines would be how x amount of founders, software founders got result. So, it's like here's the proof. I mean, here's the promise, but it's it's like wrapped in proof, you know, and that's like some of the top ways I've seen info uh you know, info headlines that those are my favorite personally my favorite info headlines is always about like >> how all these people a specific number of proof got this result cuz you get it right there in the middle. And the same thing with the lead. It's like, yeah, it's crazy, but over 3,000 software founders have already used this in 2026 to add an extra multi, you know, add an extra zero to their bottom line without any blah blah blah blah. Like proof, right there, first sentence. So, let's apply like how do we apply like proof?

38:29 What what are some ways we can insert or inject proof into the work that you're doing now, which is in creative strategy? So like one of the things is to like put the proof like beforehand for example like instead of just leaving it for the close or like the CTA is to put it before especially if you have like depending on the type of formula that you're doing that like you said you're weaving it in. >> You probably won't like you could probably even like depending on how good your proof is lead with it. In some cases, if you have like a very strong personal brand or like doctor, you could probably even say like a Harvard doctor made a discovery with or studied with an eye technology like 300 different like substances and found out these three are the best. Like we we lead immediately with it. We say that he studied this stuff or gives extra credibility and proof there. And that's like a hook I I know from not the exact wording, but I know from like my mentors Lee and Israel that are doing some of this stuff and it's it's working like like crazy because for the fact that you lead with proof where everybody's making Yeah.

39:38 like claims about >> like you can look better in X days, you lead with something that most people don't have. >> That's like one thing. And even if you look in to the biggest ad accounts, like if for example, if you just open up the library for IMAT right now in the Facebook library and you look up the static ads, you can look into this stuff and probably see that they put their proof right there immediately to see for the people and those are at least according to the ad library the best performing static ads in the account. M >> so if especially in some type of static formats if you have a lot of proof if you show directly in like in a good format it's also one of the fastest way to do like really fast really like crazy scaling ads without you could say it's lazy or not like a mod of effort but it's also like the ability of a good copyriter to see that it's important to highlight it because most people want to do like indirect you could say creative stuff that is like out of the box. But most of the time with the direct stuff, especially in some cases like with IM8, if you look at the static ads, you don't need to be a genius to come up with these because they already offer. if a lot of people simply don't highlight it >> and yeah that's like one of the things too they always look out for copyriter like what is the biggest promise or the biggest differentiator of a product or offer >> and how can you highlight it in a very direct short way because that's like instead of going with the ICP you highlight the USP as fast as possible.

41:18 >> Yeah. Mhm. >> That's so this is cool. Like I'm I'm having this like light bulb moment like while we're having this conversation. And I'm like thinking about this proof more and more. I'm like, hm. Yeah. Cuz it's easier now than ever to produce more and more copy. So the advantage some of these businesses had back in the day was they could produce a lot of direct response copy and that was their differentiator because there weren't that many skilled let's say I don't know let's just say copyright. Then it became about like you know being able to make bold promises. You know it's like now you also can include the bold promises.

41:47 So you have like simple like good copy like good language and good promises. But this is one of those things that AI can't do actually at all like you how does AI give you proof you know like you know it can't you got to you've got to be able to manufacture uh proof and so now I I see it as a resource like that's what the light bulb is for me it's like proof in itself is a like not a currency but it's almost like an asset value to it on the on the the business bank like on the business account statement it's like your proof how much is your proof worth for your business like it's an asset and it's it's an actual asset for the business and are you growing your proof account in your in your company. So as a copyriter then that's definitely the biggest uh takeaway/ secret I would say for for many copyriters is like do you see proof as a asset? Do you see proof as something that you are like investing time and money and energy into and the more you can convert money into proof I actually think you make more money. I think it's worth I think proof is worth more than money because it's like proof will help you scale. So >> yeah. Okay, that's cool. Interesting.

42:59 Yeah, you see like with the biggest B2B agencies like for me at least when for example back when I wanted to join agency and I'm also looking at other big agencies right now like I don't care like their fancy ad system or if they have a good name for it. The first thing I look is for the proof like how much monthly or yearly ad spend are they managing like on which accounts are they working it are they working with bunch of small brands or they even managing like let's say 3 million 5 million even 10 million monthly ad spend >> like people who can like show this obviously especially in the B2B market where everybody can do big promises or like use even simple language but the especially in B2B is like the gap so much bigger and the stakes so much higher that if you don't have this proof and you also have to think it as a copyriter you're in the B2B space you're asking for retainer which is 5k 10k even 25k or whatever so the business is taking a big risk or big investment in you >> so the more proof you have is not just compared to like an ecom brand okay instead of like scaling our account to 500k or 1 million a month with ad spend you probably won't even like get to like 10 or 25k a month for the simple fact because you don't have enough proof that people are willing to pay you the money or that you don't have the skill to like deliver for such business many business at high level. I think that it goes back to what many copyrighters think is oh I need lots of numbers on my CV like made x amount of money and did this for this business is like a lot of copers that's where their insecurity comes from is like oh but I don't have the data. Um, I'll just say one thing on this real quick. Um, and then I think uh I got one more question for you. And and that that idea that you need numbers is of course useful. You know, it's it does obviously improve your positioning. It's just one way to demonstrate proof though. Like you talked about earlier you had a portfolio. That's also a good way to demonstrate. It's demonstrative proof because it shows here's what the copy looks like. Here's the kind of stuff that I produce. Um, another piece of proof can be that the business itself trusted you. So, what's more impressive?

45:13 Being able to say that you generated $250,000 or like an ad your your ad they spent $200,000 on your ad or to say that you worked with an agency and you were responsible for I don't know, let's just say like, you know, you were you were a lead copyright or a senior copyriter at an agency that manages $500 million in ad spend per year. Like to me, I think the second one's more impressive, even if you never got a single ad on that account to $200,000 in ad spend because you're like leveraging their their brand name or like you're leveraging other things other than just the the numbers.

45:47 So, and we talk about this in uh in Copy Dojo, this idea of like how do you take um what you already have and optimize and position it in the way that gives you as much proof as possible to maximize your reach and your potential. And and so obviously, you know, there's a few ways to do it, but that's one of them. One of them is like leveraging the names of the people that you've worked with because you're borrowing the trust that they gave you. It's like, well, that guy has proof. Like if Hozosi or Tony Robbins, they have proof. So even if you made only like $100 for Tony Robbins, if he trusted you, then you carry more proof, I think, than you know, if you make $10,000 for some nobody that nobody really knows about.

46:26 you know, you just might not want to say that you only made $100 for Tony Robbins cuz that actually might work against you then cuz then it's like you you had Tony Robbins account and you only made a hundred bucks, like that's not so good. But, you know, just uh that's just the principle. Yeah. So, my question for you is like if you could tell copywriters sort of anything from from the career that you've had so far, what what's one thing that you would tell them? It doesn't have to be like the only thing, but like what's something that comes to mind that you would you would recommend or or or tell them?

46:51 >> Yeah. Like proof over everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like the theme of the conversation, but it's so true that it's funny how people are willing or at least the theme in the space is that people want or are willing to do like so many outreaches, so many applications instead of saying, "Okay, I'm not there yet to close these clients, but it's not a problem. I still want to get there, but I need to take a different route.

47:18 >> I need to look for other ways to go there." I remember to balance Ellen I I'm sure if he said it on your interview or somewhere else he said like I want to work with this business this big businesses but at the start of my career wasn't there but I knew agencies are an avenue to get there faster. >> Yeah. So if you learn like even from the interview if you see this interview and think ah that's not the way I want to do it. Okay that's good. look for other ways to do it. Like look for creative ways to get to this outcome faster and it might not be the direct way.

47:53 >> You need to look for other options how to get there. That's like the thing for me that >> it's like the biggest takeaway or like biggest thing the career too. If you want to get an outcome, it's always most of the time not the direct way. I love that. Yeah, you cleaned up the topic pretty nicely there. That's pretty good. Thank you so much. Where can uh where can people find you Kevin? >> Yeah, so the easiest way is LinkedIn.

48:14 That's like my professional you could say socials where people can look me up my CV my stuff that I did and insights that I share things like these especially with the proof part of other insights that I have well like table discussions for I want to share so that's the best place to look me up and yeah simply type Kevin just and creative strategist at least last time I looked up there was only one so that's the easiest way to find me cool I'll put it in the I'll put in the description of this video. And just the other day, I actually had a chat with uh Kevin's brother as well, and we talked about some similar things about creative strategy. And it just goes to show that, you know, what what the brothers have figured out is actually working because he's also working with massive accounts, and he's also built his positioning. So, go take a look at that interview as well and see what you can learn from that one. And uh I'll see you in the next one. Thanks again so much for coming to Cape Town. It was really, really a pleasure. That was really awesome.