#47: Building a $2.55 billion startup with Oura co-founder Petteri Lahtela

0:06 [Music] the growth pod is brought to you by Jano a leading growth agency in the nordics we interview marketing experts Business Leaders and entrepreneurs to uncover the stories and strategies behind profitable [Music] growth welcome Petri thank you Joshua how how do I spell your name uh Joshua is fine it's perfect yeah um lots to

0:37 cover let's start with uh with the background or before Aura really because uh I think you had quite an interesting interesting background and I'd be interested to hear how maybe some of the experiences before Aura LED you to to the idea you and your co-founders yeah yes in the first place yeah yeah they actually many of the things in my life before Aura made it happen eventually [Music] so I learned a lot in in several

1:10 different companies before founding Aura with my co-founders so first of all in a company called net Hawk I joined in 1992 and um we were developing a product for Telecom mobile network optimiz ization and testing and of course it was a global market so we had to develop to the international context from the very

1:42 beginning and then um when we had the certain version of the product ready we had to start to sell it abroad and uh I was there in the div in the development in the first place but then I was interested in in sales and marketing as well so so uh then um the founder CEO asked that okay would I like to start going abroad and selling the the solution so then I

2:13 started in in 1995 traveling all over the world in 20 30 countries first selling the solution but also later on establishing uh distribution networks and uh kind of hiring Distributors and and going to the customers together with them and and uh learning a lot along the way in different kind of occasions mostly traveling just by myself and and you

2:45 know many things happen when you when you travel and and uh all things they they don't go as you expect so you have to be kind of prepared as prepared as you can be but at the same time what I that that it it was really important to learn that I have to trust the wisdom of [Music] uncertainty

3:16 so I cannot be prepared to everything that happens but in my mind I can be prepared to to everything in a sense that that I expect the best and I trust the people and and enjoy doing what I do so just doing my best and trusting that that every situation have the solution inside as well so that was really really really transformative in a sense that how how I

3:49 see the world how I I kind of Meet the people new people going going to uh different places in the world and so on so and also during that time I I um I did my MBA or Executive MBA so I could use all that um practical experience that I gained

4:19 during that International work but at the same time I I studied the theories behind the internationalization and then then I wrote that kind of the pis and I I had a a very good um uh what is it the supervisor supervisor from deoko uh tento who had kind of he was one of the

4:50 first um people who have done the their doctoral thesis on on internationalization so he had good background on there on that area so so it was really inspirational to to think that okay how you how you internationalize the operations of that kind of a company small small company did that kind of like International perspective mean that when you first were thinking about Aura and starting

5:20 aura that the idea was this is going to be a international Global brand from the very beginning from the very beginning yes definitely so so all that experience helped us to to see us in the global context right away and also kind of thinking from the optimal Target audien's perspective that okay what kind of people are in different places what what are their aspirations what Li what kind of live lives lives they live and and and so on

5:50 so so it it gave a lot of P perspective that okay how we need to approach and also how we how we start to internationalize M the business ourselves uh from the from day one basically where did the that kind of explains the the global approach and focus from the beginning where did the design aspect come into it because I think it's so interesting when you think about Finland we're known for being very engineering driven technically focused

6:19 yes but Aura is arguably I mean you've been credited for being like one of the most accurate maybe the most accurate wearing device but also I would argue the most goodlook that the best the sleekest best design and it's so I think unexpected to me that such a brand product comes from Finland and then maybe no offense but also from like outside of Helsinki so where did that perspective come from and why did you decide to put so much focus and effort

6:47 into the wearable ring because I would assume that it would have been technically easier if you were to have done maybe a wrist Rod or something like that yes yes yeah it's it's kind of a long story behind that so when we started developing Aura um we understood that we need to gain access to long-term data physiological data of of the user and and longterm data means that that the the product

7:18 needs to be worn for a long time months and years so that we can we can actually provide the best benefit most value to the fure so and of course when we started we didn't know yet that it's going to be a ring but when it became obvious that that the finger is the best place to get the most accurate bi signals and and and also taking into

7:48 account the perspective that rings are actually the maybe the oldest variables in the world in a sense that people have been wearing rings for a long time so we decided that okay it can be a ring uh of course it was really really really hard to to do and fit the technology inside a ring so that it's it's still wearable and so on but when we when we had that that idea that it's going to be a ring we right away

8:17 understood that then it needs to be very aesthetically beautiful and very well designed so that people want to wear it even without any technology so fortunately K who who is the co-founder K and and he's my cousin so while he was working for Nokia he he had started designing jewelry at the same time and Rings especially so so he was

8:50 that just coincidental like he it was kind of it was kind of coincidental yes yes so so he had had been doing that for several years already and with the high ambition level so so they were very very uh aesthetically beautiful or maybe beautiful is not not the right word but but very well designed uh so so it it it it became kind of one of one of the central drivers for

9:21 developing the product so of course the first generation it we couldn't fit all the that all the technology at that time the battery and and and all the electricity Electronics inside the ring uh in this size that it is today so so but still the the first generation ring it was a really really beautiful design but it was much bigger so so uh

9:55 it required kind of certain kind of commitment from the user to wear it and had to be brave enough to to wear such a design piece yeah but this today I think it's still in in in several design museums oh very so it's well respected as a design object so maybe someday it's going to be pretty expensive to buy have you saved any of the first versions yes of course that's very good and is it was

10:26 this the first in the world such a like a a wearable tracking device fitted into a ring was it was there something else out there actually they they had been some some early prototypes for example MIT had measured certain things from from finger early on and there was a kind of research team that had kind of done some basic research there and they had even some patterns and so on so we we found them

10:58 and and those those patents were expired already and but they had some some early visions that okay finger could be a good place to to measure as well got it it's very interesting that you it started from I mean just the the very technological or like the the very simple fact that you get the most bi feedback from the finger and then you design around that to make something that's beautiful and and very with this very broad appeal um what was the early

11:27 days of AA like because I mean I'm guessing you facing all the typical challenges of of doing a startup with funding with recruiting with trying to figure out the the target audience and then there's the saying that Hardware is really hard so that's added on top of it so what was what were the early early days like of course they were really really really tough because basically no one outside of our team believed in what we were doing so like when we were

11:57 meeting investors in us for example they said that why don't you why don't you develop a risk device like all the others and why don't you measure activity like all the others measure so it was hard to basically disrupt everything in that context so having a ring foam Factor it was completely new for everyone then measuring sleep and recovery from

12:27 finger what it wasn't straightforward for anyone so so um was there any question about do people even are people going to want this do people care about redness score do they care about their sleep stats or is this like for the biohackers the 0.1% of people are yeah they questioned basically everything and also that are you going to sell it only through your own website it's never going to work okay there was a lot of strikes against

12:57 you yes why did you as a team then decid that this was a good idea despite all these challenges why did you believe in this I think it it just made us stronger to believe in what we are doing so so uh we were any anyhow how we how we started developing the product was pretty different from any other companies that that we have learned after that that how wearable companies normally start the development so they they they take the

13:26 sensors and and put them in the wrist and then they have data and they just show the data so there's no kind of ambition to to Really create something that helps the the person to to become um let's say become more aware of of themselves to to learn about themselves and how their body is responding to their lifestyle for example so so we we started defining the use cases and user stories from from the end user

13:58 perspective did you have a specific person in mind a specific end user when you started in in the very early days yeah basically it made it easier that we were developing the product for ourselves right so so we were the kind of early early adapters that that uh willing to wear this really big ring yes exactly yes so we thought that if if um if the value and the benefits that we can create are big

14:30 enough then it's not no problem for people to wear the ring and uh so so and and the intention behind it's really really important I I kind of learned it along the way and especially after going through all this journey I I understood that how important it is that that you have a

15:01 genuine intention to do something really transformative I mean transformative from the perspective of the optimal target audience so that they you you ensure in every level of the product and the product or the user experience you make sure that that it everything is true and also that it's it's really beneficial the value is

15:31 there and [Music] and in case of Aura it was it was a really bit little bit difficult in a sense that that you know all all the kind of um all the things that that we want to achieve require kind of some level of of Behavioral change so if we wanted to [Music] have the situation that the the end user

16:01 actually gets the best out of the product he or she needs to commit to to him or herself to the process of kind of self-realization that that what kind of things I need to change in my life to improve the quality of my life so so what kind of things are affecting my my uh daily choices or how my body is responding to my daily choices so so we were seeing it from the perspective that

16:32 we can help people become more aware of themselves and kind of self-reflect with the product that what are good choices for me and what what are not SOC good so we kind of turned the the body and the signals of the body that are pretty invis invisible otherwise we turned them visible in a way that that people can understand and

17:04 even even in written texts that that you can find in a product in Readiness and sleep and activity so we we we wanted to kind of give this kind of forward looking guidance to the user so that they can start becoming understand their body uh more thoroughly and and and um it kind of proved to be very

17:36 transformative as a product or or user experience eventually so so and there there this this intention that I was I was talking it it plays an important role in a sense that when you have this genuine intention to create something very highly valuable to the end user then it becomes the core of motivation for the team as well and also that what kind of team members kind of

18:08 become intrigued about the vision and and the the intention and and then they find it eventually very meaningful to create something like this so then then let's say from the leader perspective it's it's it becomes pretty easy because people are self- motivated from inside to create something very beautiful so so so this intention becomes the DNA of the team but also

18:39 it it kind of transforms to the DNA of the product and the user experience as as well so so then then you can really kind of um you can make those end users feel and and experience that intention that we were willing to create something very very useful and and they they find it through their this self-reflection uh

19:10 process they they kind of find out something about themselves that they couldn't find out without the product yeah and that is the the reason that or actually the that's that's something that creates the high retention rates like Aura today is something like four times higher retention than any other variable wow and it has been the same for all the time actually it's just just growing all the time Yes W that's pretty incredible yes so it's it's really really high high

19:41 retention rates but the reason is that people commit to themselves and they use the product as as tool for kind of a companion for their self realization process I think it's so interesting because I think like you said there's no substitute for genuine desire intention to create something because it's going to bleed through or like into all the decisions into all the interactions whether it's recruiting or talking to customer like you can't Fake it Well maybe you can but a very for a short

20:11 period of time and people feel it they sense it exactly yeah you cannot fake it actually yes so so it it becomes the team's DNA and and every person's DNA or wherever they are telling about AA it comes true so it's it's a compassion yeah it's it's it's really something that they are so inspired that the inspiration is is the thing that kind of spreads yeah to the audience or other the people whoever we are talking to

20:44 so you cannot fake it it's it's something that you live through yourself yeah so so then that is something that resonates yes so so this so this this in original intention genuine intention becomes the kind of resonance that then you you kind of uh if you're traveling or something you meet people there is always this resonance present and then then you find the kind of people you are looking for and and and you can expand your team and

21:16 and and they easily kind of find the same meaningfulness and and inspiration actually many of the many of or us let's say majority of or employees are really really inspired to work for the company because they find it very meaningful to create be there U let's say creating this kind of product mhm and and that I think also probably then there's the downstream effect is it's a

21:47 lot easier still difficult but a lot easier to create a really strong brand yes yes exactly yeah brand is something that it's not created somewhere in the in the background or or some some in the agency yes yes it's something that it's it comes from the DNA of of the of the team and and and there is this intention all the time and and U then the product when it when it it kind of

22:20 represents all those benefits and and and the intention behind then the feeling what the end users get that's that's the thing that we that the brand um kind of starts to live so otherwise if there's no this kind of resonance in the end future that then then it's it's really hard to to otherwise create such a brand so it's

22:52 it's something that is is created along the way during the journey in every step yeah uh and and um all the kind of values or or whatever it kind of presents they need to be true in the product as well so what kind of brand it is so it becomes true as a product experience user experience and

23:23 then kind of um you don't need to tell the the Brand Story anymore it's it's the users that start to tell the story of the product and actually they start to tell the findings about themselves that they found with the product so then it's it's much much stronger yeah so it becomes part of their their personal brand or their their story and I mean they're much more effective at telling

23:53 telling the Brand Story through their own experiences to their group of people yes because I felt like one thing mistake that you do is if you think of brand as like this top down approach that we Define the brand message and then the only thing we need to do is repeat it repeat it repeat it and then make sure everyone repeats these lines to their friends but actually like it's very difficult to get people to understand and and understand exactly

24:15 what you're trying to say but they don't have to because if they get the overall idea and then they pick up on like oh this helps me sleep better or this helps me perform better whatever it is like they put their own spin on it exactly yes but but you said I think it's it's it's so interesting when you look at a brand like Aura we talked off or you said off air that before you were at

24:36 Amazon you were the most search for product on Amazon in the United States that's not on Amazon exactly yes which is I mean when you think about like a finnished consumer product doing so incredibly well at scale in United States um a premium product nonetheless so brand is very very important and so if you look at that from the outside you're like wow how did they build this brand they must have had this great agency something like that but

25:01 it's like no it was all those it was that genuine commitment from the team and then probably like five seven eight 10 years of work yes yes exactly of course we had good partners as well so proxy venters uh it's one of the early investors and they they do The Branding work for their portfolio companies so they were helping us to create that but still it it they cannot do it if there's no know this this everything what we

25:31 discussed about so it needs to come from from the team and from the product and it needs to be true it's then it's just how it how we express it in in words and visuals so so it's it's kind of art to to to be able to present it in a way that it really expresses all this uh behind was there uh if you take a step back you mentioned beginning was really tough everyone No One Believes In The Vision

26:00 except you was there a point U kind of like an inflection point where you were like wow this is actually going to work like was there a clear moment where you had like your first sale or first partnership or something like that that you think back and was like that was a defining moment yeah along the way there was all the time this kind of highlights yeah and and um so we we went a lot uh to talk to people in different

26:27 occasions uh after we launched uh first time in in San Francisco in launch Festival 2015 M we we launched from stealth uh the first generation ring and right the next day uh we were invited to to the Woodside Woodside is a place where Steve Jobs and and those those people who have made fortunes they they live there and

26:58 and um and they were people who who got inspired about what we are doing and one of one of the early ones was Linda ay who is the co-founder of 23 and me and she she of course had plenty of contacts and she invited us to to Woodside there's a restaurant there to meet few investors so we right away started discussions about investment with with uh people

27:29 from there and they had they had interesting backgrounds and and so on so so along the way we have met so many people and and heard so many stories and their success stories and and many kind of stories and and people from very very different backgrounds and and so on so and and whenever we told our kind of story and and how we ended up to develop the product and and

28:00 um how they kind of convinced about us as people telling the story so they may necessarily necessarily they they didn't always kind of um see right away that okay this is going to be a successful product but they started to believe in us and and um and what we told them and and and they found it inspiring based on their own entrepreneurial uh Journeys and so on so

28:33 so all those meetings they they were something that I still remember very well that meeting all those people they even invited us to their houses and and had really really wonderful discussions and and um somehow we we we um we got to to very let's say into very close relationships with with many of them so so it was not only in the

29:03 business context but also in the personal level that that we we get to experience many kind of new things and but yeah in general all meeting all those people and and and having those discussions and and then then starting to believe in us that has been very transformative and and then those were the highlights that that helped us uh after let's say meeting lots of we's and they all said that no

29:35 no we we we don't we we cannot invest in this kind of but but also after the even in those meetings where we we were very very much let's say um um or how to how to express yeah they basically didn't believe in any part of the solution sometimes and in some occasions if they were they were more let's say science oriented they

30:07 may um believe in the science part but then they didn't believe the technology or if they were technology driven they started thinking that okay there is some possibility that this technology works but other parts no you cannot do there were so many parts in technology science consumer direct exactly channels distribu yeah it's consumer it's it's Hardware yeah variables they are already 13 in it doesn't so so and and why do you do it

30:38 so different so there were many aspects that that they they didn't believe yeah and and uh so so after we could convince some of those successful entrepreneurs and they they joined us and investors or advisers or something and so they were the highlights that helped us to to really focus uh on our story how we better tell the story so that others can understand as well and soon so

31:10 interesting yeah another highlight this was probably many many years later but I remember reading about it and I think it was very significant was when Prince Harry wore the ring yes um that generated tons of tons of free publicity for you and probably lots of orders as well yes so how did that come about did you pay him under the table a lot of money to to put it on or what what happened yeah actually yeah this is this

31:34 is really good question and and um it's actually a good example of of um how this genuine intention can transform to something very meaningful user experience because Prince Harry is a person that you cannot influence in a way in in any way we didn't even have a chance to meet him in person so

32:05 um you cannot affect him and his decisions so it was his conscious decision to start wearing the ring during the during the day uh against the Royal protocol and and he had only one message in his mind doing that and he delivered that message to to pass through his uh uh Doctor Who was actually I had met her uh couple of

32:36 years back I can tell about that later on but anyhow he delivered us a message that don't talk about my ring but talk about this product as a as a product that can help young adults like himself uh to stay healthy and well performing and that was his message that he wanted to kind of he knew that it's going to be a bus around it uh especially but

33:07 because they were going upo for kind of global tour and so we got in five days we got 4 uh 86 million Global media hits uh so so the marketing equivalent by an external marketing office uh they estimated that it was 10.5 million euros worth of uh kind of marketing money if we had tried to do it just by ourselves

33:37 in marketing but it was even more transformative than that because after that it was Prince Harry's ring so it wasn't just an unknown unknown variable from from Finland but it was Prince Harry's ring after that so everyone who was seeing something about Aura oh is that Prince Harry's ring so so uh it was kind of globally validated right away yeah so it's just a huge thing it's hard to imagine like some a more credible I mean not he's not a science expert but

34:09 like you said um they have to be very careful about endorsements and yes it's not like an athlete that can be sponsored or something like that it's it's has to come from a genuine desire too exactly yes and believe in the product exactly and and and so it's it's a great expression of of how this intention really can transform to something that the user can experience in a product and and kind of get into the level of there needs to

34:40 be this kind of genuine intention in this product inside this product that it has been carefully designed to help me to really self-reflect and understand more about myself so it's it's really really valuable MH so so through this kind of self-reflection moments they they are the biggest uh kind of moments where all this what we had created and

35:13 and the brand and everything come together and and it's a self-realization and and and it's it's it's kind of an experience that you want to share with everyone because it's so big thing yeah uh so so therefore it's it's a really good example that that how important it is that what kind of intention you have when you're doing your thing absolutely I want to take a very quick break to talk to you about something that we at genra have just launched and

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36:15 Topline Revenue growth and we built this collection of tools processes and strategies that will help you achieve all of those things by by allowing you to First measure and understand what's actually going on with your marketing and then allow you to focus on the things that are driving real results for your business so if you want to learn more about this and book a free demo check out the link in the show notes when um when things were starting

36:44 to take off a little bit and you had you had every I mean the product was ready um you had distribution in place Manufacturing in place did you then start um at some point just putting a lot of effort uh and investment into Market marting customer acquisition or did it just happen kind of more or less organically you had like 10 million worth of media coming from from Prince har or or how did the customer the

37:07 growth how did you fuel the growth yeah actually actually in the very beginning we we had launched the first generation ring in March 2015 so we started to prepare for the kickstarter campaign that we had in in August September the same year H this was after the the yeah the L yes so so we started to meet people and and we started to kind of um try to find those people who

37:40 are influential in in certain uh Target audiences that who we would like to reach uh so we we kind of created the plan that that to be able to successful in the kickstarter campaign we need to close the the $100,000 Target in as soon as possible because in the kickstarter they they told that this is the kind of boost that after that you will be boosted because you yeah you will become visible in in

38:12 the context and in their platform and so on so so we knew that okay we need to be able to create those people who help us to reach that Target so so this kind of um um biohackers or this biohacking uh it was into very very early steps but it was more like um it was a different terms that they

38:44 use used at that time but there was a person called Gary Wolf who was who was kind of heading this kind of moment of of not biohacking yet but it was it was quantifi self yeah uh movement that had kind of started and and they were enthusiastic people uh going to there uh they had an exhibition in June or July in San Francisco and and uh there were plenty

39:15 of those very enthusiastic people who were about uh self measurement and and this kind of self-reflection stuff and and and plenty of different kind of offering and and different kind of um aspects into the same theme but we were there with our our small pools and even our daughters were with us uh they were I think seven and 10 at that time something like that and so they were with us there and we were standing there

39:46 and and and giving uh talks and and and also joining the panel discussions and so on so making us visible in in that audience and and really had inspiring discussions with with plenty of individuals and and and they they got inspired okay this this kind of new product is coming and and we agreed with this this Gary wol and his team that okay they will

40:16 they will spread the word inside their Community uh so that when the kickstarter starts then they start placing orders right away so we we reached this $100,000 Target in 15 hours not bad so so and and then it it it it got really nice boost in the in the platform and so on so what was the total Kickstarter that you raised $650,000 so something like

40:47 2,300 products or so and that was def fund the launch of the first generation yeah exactly and and during that time you were talking about this this that how we started to kind of scale the visibility so so basically the kickstarter wasn't for raising the money of course we needed money as well but we wanted to show that there there are people who need this kind of product but also we had met many uh marketing offices in in San

41:19 Francisco and Los Angeles and and and and many places but we found out that they they cannot kind of understand deep enough what we are bringing about what we are creating and why we are doing what we are doing and so on so that we didn't find the same tune with them so we thought that it's it's going to be expensive and and we are not going to get good results uh kind of creating visibility through a marketing office so

41:48 we thought that okay through Kickstarter we can reach C at least certain target audience effectively and basically without cost we get visibility so that was the main reason yeah uh to go there uh and and also that uh those early influencers found us from there like Ben Greenfield he was already a very well-known this kind of Quantified Self

42:19 guy and and highly respected guy so so he got inspired about what we are doing and he he contacted me and suggested that let's make a podcast yeah it was the first podcast that was done about Ora and it was during that Kickstarter campaign and right right away when we it was released it started selling selling and I think it's still selling yeah well CU I mean to his audience he's a he's an expert and authority and they trust his

42:50 judge exactly yes and and so and also he's very science oriented and and very thorough in in his kind of analysis and everything and ever since he has been wearing the over ring all the time every every place speaking of retention exactly yes it's a really long retention there so and and then we got some others uh in in different places in different

43:20 countries in in the world and and so so in the first place they they came in a way that they were inspired what we are doing and they contacted us so it wasn't us driving that that those influencers came and and like for example Alex ferus from he was then living in Australia but now he's in in New Zealand he he he came after after Ben and he was early in his

43:51 his own career as as a broadcaster and and and and so so um he was really enthusiastic as well and and started gaining lots of visibility for our product and so so we were kind of growing together yeah in a way and so this influencer marketing wasn't that uh let's say like like today there's a lot of talks about influencer marketing so so it was it started a little bit different for us so uh and and it was in

44:23 a sense that we didn't need to pay for them but they got some small commission from the sales yeah so so it was really really good for us because those people they have their audience who are listening and and they they are convinced about what they talk about so so we we started getting very good traction from those and those kind of that kind of influencer marketing is is obviously very different and I think much more effective than the type where

44:52 you're essentially just renting the audience like you're exactly paying someone to post something on Instagram yes versus actually talking about what they're genuinely very very excited about yes yes exactly and also that we were in in in in tune with them in the same completely in the same level so whatever we talked about science technology or design or whatever aspect of the product and especially from the end user perspective that what benefits we create and how how we can help

45:21 people uh in increase the quality of their life from different aspects so we were in tune with them in every level so it was easy to talk to them and easy to deliver the message to Their audience because those were exactly the things that they were talking about so so it was the way for us to to build the visibility and also also the kind of this kind of brand um image also that what this brand

45:53 presents what what it actually means what it delivers what are the values of the brand and and so on so so it was kind of Step bystep journey and and it just started to spread and spread and spread and and it was interesting that when we were talking to investors and so on they were always questioning that okay it's it's so small group of people those Quantified Self and self self optimizers and but actually it was

46:23 growing much faster than than than anyone could expect and and today we talk about health optimizers so there are plenty of people who are who want to kind of optimize their life they they come from all walks of life and and and uh they just want to improve their quality of their life in in certain areas of their life yeah maybe they already are active enough they may have may have taken care of

46:54 their nutrition but then they have want to improve their sleep s yeah as well so so also this concentration on sleep and recovery and the story behind that what how important it is then it started to to get really good Traction in those people yeah and just I mean anecdotally I used to have an aura then I dropped it somewhere in the kotka harbor but my brother has an aura my sister has an AA my dad has an aura and that's

47:19 demographically and also like if you think about use cases and how they think about it very very broad yes um so I think my I've influenced all all three of them uh to get the to get or um speaking of like intention and just really appreciating the product um so obviously now there's there's no reason probably why you couldn't tell millions and millions um every year to to people from all walks of life yes um do you

47:48 think that there's a downside to the fact that we're starting to quantify I'm thinking specifically let's say you wake up in the morning and you're like I'm feeling pretty good and then you open up the app you're like oh my Readiness score is actually fairly bad um and then I start feeling bad about myself like do you think there's a is there a risk that we're becoming too Quantified and and we're for we're paying too much

48:10 attention to all these different Biometrics what do you think I would say that um we are all individuals we are all unique and we are in some phase of our journey and I would say that whatever level of self-reflection you start to do it's it's going to be beneficial for you so so even though in in certain phase you may may be too concerned about about

48:40 certain things but but then you start to learn that okay how what what decisions actually lead to to certain uh body responses and and those are the transformative moments for you to to kind of grow at as a human being and and to to grow to know yourself better and and behind the the original intention to create this dis solution uh we had an idea that that we

49:15 want to with this product we want to kind of help people become more aware of themselves and more to be able to do more conscious choices on daily basis and and therefore we developed the product in a way that it's not demanding kind of interaction and it's always always forward looking so whatever choices you do if you if you select to celebrate something and you

49:47 you maybe drink some champagne and and you really enjoy your life it's not not not nagging you about it but it's it gives you forward looking statements that okay this way you can recover back to your your optimal level so so I think people people quickly learn with aura that okay what is kind of my my capacity uh to live my life and and what

50:18 I can do to improve and and stay in in a good level so that I can I can be at my best so so it's it's it's it's a journey that that you start and and and to to what you commit with aura yeah and and and that's the reason for the high retention as well that it becomes a companion to you and and um kind of thinking behind that PE help people become more aware of themselves

50:51 there was this thinking that that this way we can kind of help people also become more aware of the people around them their loved ones other people and and this way we can we can create more respect and and this kind of a more respectful culture and and also more respect towards nature and animals and everything so there was a bigger biger

51:21 thought behind so that um because there is this this anecdote from from the also my my earlier Journey um I was working in a company where we developed solution for chronic diseases management and and kind of self-care it was the self-care product was was let's say 15 years too early in the market right but still we learned a lot about the market that that how how ready

51:53 people are to to do things that would help improve their their situation but but let's say most of all I learned that the existing Health Care system is incapable of doing anything to prevent people develop this chronic disease or let's say diabetes or COPD whatever chronic disease and and and there are so many people with pre-diabetes and so so I got

52:23 let's say intrigued about the idea that okay why we cannot do anything into to this problem there must be a solution and I had I had a chance to talk to many specialists in the area uh like in London Healthcare trusts like in s s Mary's Hospital for example they doctors who are uh helping people all around the world and and they're really Specialists and they were saying that

52:55 that yeah this Healthcare System we cannot do any kind of preventive work really uh so so I started thinking that a lot and and decided that there must be a solution and and eventually that led to the thinking that okay we need to create this kind of a product that help people understand that how their body is responding to their their lifestyle and what they can do yeah I think that's I mean it resonates a lot with me

53:26 philosophically that that this about giving consumers or people freedom and the tools Empower them essentially exactly to to make choices and then they can make the choices like you said sometimes you'll ignore yes what you know is to be good for your sleep because life is more than more than sleep I think that's that's that sounds makes makes a lot of sense um I think unfortunately we're running out of time I could continue for a long time but um

53:53 one final question I'd be interested just just to get your perspective on on maybe not necessarily the future of Aura because I know how much you can talk about that but but the future of wearables because my understanding or sense would be that we're kind of like we're tapping out all the just the tracking like we're getting all the data that we can but now it's maybe more so the biggest next Frontier is like what do we do with it yes so what are your

54:18 thoughts on how this is going to evolve like am I going to have an AI um assistant that's going to be able to take all this feedback and then give me like as I'm trying to reach for something that maybe I shouldn't have they can kind of tell me like hey do you want to do that because remember last time it affected your sleep by this and this match like where do you think like from a 5 10 year perspective where do you

54:37 think we're going to be with with all these wearables yeah even though we are getting lots of data it comes most of the data comes without context and that's the huge problem so there are plenty of variables providing data but it's out of the context so so people cannot do anything with it so so I see that there's still a lot of opportunities to to improve the overall user

55:09 experience in a way that that we get deeper understanding in the data in a way that we put it into in the certain context we we uh kind of develop better understanding standing on the personal level of this person like like our approach was that that um we create long-term baselines in certain bio signals and and certain aspects and then all those

55:42 changes compared to that Baseline are something that we need to take into account that something is happening like your temperature is Raising or something even small chains is a change or your body uh your res heart rates heart rate is is going up or going down so they are all telling about something so we need to get deeper into the interpretation that what's happening in your body and what those signals and data points are

56:12 telling about those things that are happening in your body like having more holistic understanding on on cardiovascular uh Dynamics and and and like for example this this um blood pressure measurement it's it the whole Paradigm is completely broken in a sense that that if you go to the doctor and measure your blood pressure once there and and you have climbed the stairs and and drink some coffee so of

56:44 course your blood pressure is high and then you get the the recipe for drugs for the rest of your life based on one measurement at one time exactly yes so so there's a huge opportunity to get into the understanding of like for example continuous blood pressure variation would would you be able to get all of this what you're talking about from for instance Aura like yeah I think Aura is one of the best Platforms in the

57:11 world to to be able to do that because it sits snugly on your finger it gets access very highly accurate access to to such signals that you cannot get from the wrist definitely Apple watch is one of the best devices to measure from the rist they have lots of resources to invest in that but still they cannot change the biology or physiology right so the veins are here and they are measuring from this this side so and and in each

57:44 finger we have two two veins here so we can access very snugly uh and get much much better signal yeah and and then we have this long-term view to the data as well so and and from this periphery uh uh not from the EKG signal but from this peripherial uh uh pulse waveform it's possible to interpret lots of information about this cardiovascular uh

58:15 Dynamics and that tells in the long term about how your blood pressure variation is is changing and what is affecting that and wow and is there a deep during the night as it should be and and so on so so there's lots of this kind of information that that uh is still kind of invisible for people but it's highly doable but it requires lots of lots of very talented people AI doesn't solve it because AI

58:48 it's still in a level even though gbt 4 or whatever number it comes up it it's it it looks intelligent but it isn't actually it has all only all that information that is exists in the internet but AI wouldn't have been able to create this product yeah so so we need people to work on those uh and and to be able to read the data like huk kinan is one of the smartest person

59:19 I I know in this context he he was the principal scientist at polar for 18 years before he joined AA it was it took one year for me to convince him to join join AA because he was a principal scientist at Po in a good company in a good place and so on so but eventually I succeeded and and it was good for him as well to join us because then then he could concentrate after all his his

59:45 experience at polar then he started to to get deep into this sleep and and and Recovery context and Readiness context and I think he's one of the one of the let's say five most intelligent people in that context that what you can derive from from this kind of data that you measure continuously yeah so the one of the problems in healthcare is that there always one shot measurements only one shot and you you don't you don't take into context the

60:18 the the what happened before that how did you sleep how you've been sleeping lately and how you been moving and and and what you've been eating and that kind of stuff so so it's it's just one short measurement and then you do the diagnoses based on that and no let's say guidance that okay what you should change or something like that so so when you have this kind of years of data of yourself very highly accurately measured

60:50 then you can start really seeing this kind of long-term trends and and what affects what things and eventually we are we are this kind of hormonal Ming and and like cortisol spikes in the morning it starts to wake up us melatonin starts to affect in the evening to to take us to to sleep and so on so there are plenty of things that we can affect our hormonal uh balance in a way and that's another level that we we

61:20 could go deeper into that understanding as well to to Really transform our health and and even even a perspective to the health so there's tons of I mean the opportunity is massive and I'm guessing Aura has the most number of rings of any company in the world out there tracking like million plus Rings or so yes yes so you're getting this data that Apple great product lots of users lots of scientists and data scientists and all that but they don't

61:48 get the same data that you do so I'm guessing Ora is incredibly well positioned for yes for the future yes that's really that's really exciting uh as a um you know just as a as a fin to to see Finnish company from ol yes do so well so um thank you so much pet for coming and and sharing the the story um it's been a true pleasure and uh yeah wish you all the best with everything you got

62:13 going on at the moment thank you this was really a pleasure thank you thank you for listening you can find all episodes of the growth pod on Spotify YouTube and Apple podast podcasts [Music]