Ep. 95 - Bad Culture Bankrupts: Building a Blue-Collar Team that Stays with David McCune

0:09 Hey guys, welcome to the BlueCollar Business podcast where we discuss the realest, robust, most relevant stories and strategies behind building every corner of a bluecollar business. I'm your host Sai Kirby and I want to help you what it took me trial and error and a whole lot of money to learn the information that no one in this industry is willing to share. Whether you're under that shade tree or have your hard hat on, let's expand your toolbox.

0:34 Guys, welcome back to another episode of the Bluecollar Business Podcast brought to you and sponsored by support.com. be on the lookout for the hundth episode coming. I got to sit down with the owner of Payurt and discuss about some of the things that they've got coming. But guys, if you're in a takeoff quantities, especially civil quantities, quantification, anything you're dealing with upfront, GPS modeling, whether you've got a team of estimators or you're a one-man band trying to bid more work, they're a great resource to put in your tool belt of, hey, I'm overloaded, but I really don't want to miss this opportunity, and I don't want to go in it half-heartedly. I want to have as much information. Get with Ben, Alex, the whole team over there. They're amazing people. and they will also give you a amazing product. We've used it at Cyclone ourselves. So, can't speak enough about those guys. guys, I just want to tell you we're creep I don't think this is going to be after the hundth episode. So pardon me if it is, but truly I can't say thank you guys enough for coming along this wild journey that we have been on of 100 episodes from man all over the spectrum of anything that could pertain to a bluecollar business.

2:01 but the one thing that the one word that always comes up with when you hear about scaling or growing or growing building a team or the one word that almost comes with a stigma about it is culture and that's the bucket we're going to be diving off very deep in today. before that though I just wanted to mention if you guys are watching I had to rub some grease on me to to to get that's what that's what our guest said today. But no, I had a blowout on the semi. I was moving some machines and so I'm a little dirty and grungy, but we're making this happen.

2:37 This is the This felt like a Monday, but the Tuesday after Memorial Day. And I got to say, guys, normally I record on Fridays. I'm a little gassed today, so bear with me. But diving off into the world of culture with a mentor of mine u that has helped me definitely elevate and direct my thinking differently and how I am a leader every single day. But this gentleman's also understands culture more than I do and I've I've learned a lot through our conversations when we have time to do that. But, vice president of operations over at Land Development Group, previously, director of business operations, with at Land Development Group. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, totally messed that up. Land Development Group, business operations director.

3:28 Apologies, Mr. David Mun. Thank you so much for joining me. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> I had two notes there and I thought it was going stemming back to Schubert. your sho land development is basically your I guess you would say trade at at this point but I I would say honestly your your trade is people. you're really really good at people and guys I talk about mentors all the time in relationships and even if they're your customer, your client, a vendor, if there is some commonality there to make iron sharp and iron, I encourage you to do so and open your ears, become a better listener. yes, we have so many things to get off our chest, but truly, Mr. David, I've got to say thank you for the guidance, but also being a great listener when needed for myself as well. but also guiding me to be a better leader for my people, you know.

4:31 But thanks for coming on the show, man. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I I've been looking forward to this. How many times we rescheduled this one? Like three. Two or three >> there about. Yeah. >> So that's why we're coming at you on a Tuesday. But at the same time, guys, culture, when you operate with bad culture, man, there's some telling tales there. And I've operated with bad culture. I can honestly say, didn't know it was bad culture at the time. And I'd like love to kind of start there. Is >> give give the folks a little bit a background of where you've been working.

5:08 I'm sorry. What you have been working on with the teams to get to where you are today within the culture refinement phase to give a little bit of credibility to yourself and and what we're going to be speaking about today, but then you know phase into where bad culture can lead us. Yeah. well, so I've been a part of good cultures and bad cultures too. hopefully I've been at least helpful even in the bad cultures, but for sure I've experienced good cultures and bad cultures. and it didn't really it didn't matter what kind of organization it was, even if it was a a church or a nonprofit that didn't guarantee it was a good culture.

5:49 and then now I'm in the a for-profit business that is based on Christian values and ethics. And pretty quickly saw that the guys who founded this company were the real deal. And so that made it easy for me to follow them and learn from them. and so really it's a little bit of that that second generation mindset where somebody's done something really good for you and and laid a really great foundation and you're somewhat just trying not to screw it up, but also trying to help perpetuate that culture, help sort of cast the vision that was cast to to us sort of in the early stages of this business. And so yeah, I see that as one of my most important jobs in my role now is to keep the culture healthy and then train leaders who train leaders who train leaders. And not always successful. I'm far from perfect, but put a lot of effort and energy into that. And it's really paid off with the the caliber of team we have now. We have just continued to raise the bar. and we have higher and higher quality humans that work that work at LDG now. And it's it's awesome. It's so much more fun that way. For sure.

6:56 >> No, 100%. I love that. I I say it all the time. You know, people are people. But, to have really cool humans, people that you enjoy to be around while you're doing what we have to do to provide for our families makes it a little bit more enjoyable at the end of the day. Or not just you, but all those leaders that you mentioned on down the way. And you know, I've had, you know, I've created bad culture. I didn't even know I did. And had some of the best people that I ever had. And but I, you know, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about indicators of bad culture because a lot of people not just indicators of bad culture. What is culture? Let's start there because I know a lot of folks are going to be like, "What are these guys talking about?" Hang with us. I promise you we're going to get into why it matters to the bottom line at the end of this episode. I assure you. Yeah. So, I think culture is one of those buzzwords. It's probably over complicated a lot of times or, you know, overcutified, but >> really it's just what's normal.

8:13 Culture is what's normal. So we have one whether you've done it intentionally or not with your in at work at home in any thing you're a part of. There's culture whether you're aware of it whether you helped create it or not. So culture is really just what's normal. and then obviously I think a lot of people have pointed this out by this point but it's not the it's not the things you put on your wall or on your website or wherever. those are sort of standards, but that doesn't mean that's what's normal. And if your standards aren't matching what's normal, that's when you kind of know you have a culture problem. So, there's a company in Lebec, Texas named Beatenbo Homes, and they they do a really good job of talking about culture, and they said something to me that was really helpful.

9:01 They they said instead of core values, let's call them house rules. And that just puts that just turns the box over a little bit and gives you a different mental image. So, you know, if you've gone gone to an Airbnb, they have house rules. No parties, no pets, no smoking. And if you do, what happens? Well, there's a penalty. if you got roommates and you have house rules and and they say, "Hey, we're not going to do this. We're not going to do this.

9:25 We're going to do this." And you're constantly breaking the house rules. What happens? You got to get out of the house. >> That's right. And so thinking about them like that has really helped us make those a little more concrete and a little more specific. And when you have this environment where everybody's living by those same core values, we're talking about them. We're living them out. We're we're putting words to them and somebody's not doing those, it's really easy to spot. Versus when you don't have that standard and you're not reinforcing it, you just kind of like there's something off about this guy.

9:56 He's kind of a jerk or he's kind of whiny or whatever. but you don't have any words to put to it. So, you just kind of shrug and well, we got work to do. Just got to move on. I've been there, done that. Who hasn't? But, once once you start to like really talk about these things and illustrate these things and shout out these things, when somebody's not like that, man, they stand out faster and faster and faster and you know, within a few weeks after somebody starts, that guy's got to change a lot or he's not going to make it because he does not fit the culture.

10:23 So, those are some of the like high highle ways. No, that's that's I appreciate that. It's so layman's terms there, like what's normal. And you're exactly right. As entrepreneurs, we set within our business what is normal, what is allowed, what is accepted, what is okay, what is held accountable. I can go on and on here, but that is such a great way. And house rules. Yeah. but let me put this in a practical format for you guys. I'll tell you, I didn't have my core values button down. They were a very unsaid but said list of things that everybody knew that Sai and Sarah were focused on and that they really cared about and we don't cross that line. We don't want to find out what's on the other side of that boundary. But there was no commonality, common team. Pull a team together. Hey, what is the most important thing to us, our families?

11:23 Okay, family first, you know, and so I've got six core values. I kept seven saying seven to you guys, but it's six now that I've been they're on my door in my office, they're in my window view, they're in they're everywhere. And but you're exactly right, man. It's when you have a frustrating scenario and whether it be frustrating for the leader or frustrating for the crew, I don't care. Now, we have a based bas basist a baseline. My Atlanta, it's been a day, guys. Hang with me. A baseline for that leader or that leader of a leader to be able to go, hey, man, you know, whatever you're doing isn't safety drives excellence or family first or or this core value or a couple of these core values and you sat right there and said to me, this is what we're going to represent. This is who we are, man. like and as a leader if I have to get involved and it's you know done a few levels of leadership talk, inner company talk, hey, what can we do to to make this better? And it finally does get to me and I got to get involved.

12:30 It's so much easier. It's so much clearer, I should say. Not easier is not the right word, but there's clarity to the situation. you're not walk you're you're normally walking into a giant fire but at the same time you understand how important it is for that crew to have a culture within itself. So, you do have to inject sometimes and go, "All right, guys, what's going on? Here's said situation. All right, here's our core values. You guys tell me what we need to be doing. You guys tell me off of these six things how we're going to handle this situation, and I will affirm your solution." Yeah.

13:05 >> And it has changed how I have led my people. And don't get me wrong, some of them didn't like it. >> And I'm not sitting here going, "Oh, yeah. Rainbows and unicorns." Like, no. There's some people that absolutely hated everything about it. It's not just f not just personal personto person or within crew accountability. There also came financial accountability and all these other accountabilities that drive into a culture that fits for all pieces on the team. And once they all focus in on that, I'm maybe getting off a little here in the weeds, but those core values are just absolutely crucial for your success. Take it from a guy who thought, "Yeah, we'll get to that."

13:52 For years upon years, but then, you know, I've always had a good team of folks, but never the best culture within those folks. I can say right now I probably have the least amount of people that I've had in a very long time, but a very good culture. And to your point, Dave, it's like I've watched a guy come in in the last 6 months and within 60 days he looked great. 90 days people were starting to raise flags and he's gone within six months because he just didn't fit. Like he stuck out.

14:26 And I don't care if it was admin staff. I don't care if it was staff out there in the field, labor guys. I don't care. They all just didn't jive with him because he didn't care about the same things we cared about. Yeah. >> And so, >> sorry to get off there in the weeds, but I think that to amplify what you're trying to say with the house rules to show, hey, look, if this does happen, this is what's going to come of it because we're going to hold each other accountable or none of this works.

14:55 >> Yeah. Yeah. We're pulling on the in the same direction or we're not doing this. >> Yeah. I mean, it just has to be that simple. And when we are pulling in the same direction, it goes really, really well. For sure. >> It's so sweet, too, on those days that things are just clicking. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Pull up to those job sites and the dudes are smiling and they running. What's up? Yeah, we got 200 foot in already. And they're just excited and you can tell just by the way the machines are moving. It's almost like a >> a melody. Call me crazy. Go ahead.

15:28 >> No. Well, what's beautiful about culture is I've seen I've seen people really getting a lot of production, but they're all mad at each other because the culture on the team sucks. >> Oh, you're so right, man. >> I also walked, this was years ago now, and both of these guys still work here. Both awesome guys, but I walked up on two guys cleaning mud out of the tracks of Miniac X. Now, who likes that? It's one of those half rain, half whatever, just na kind of nasty outside. It was after five >> and they're just cleaning out mud out of the tracks of an X a mini X-ray and they're laughing their heads off. It's like what what the heck? And they're they're just having a great time because they were friends. They were have they were just decided, hey, we got to do this whether we like it or not. It's got to happen. So, let's just make make a good time of it. Well, that's the beauty of culture. Things even when things aren't going smooth on the productivity side, things are good because the culture is there. And then the next day you'll have a good productivity day cuz they're good they're good men. They're good women. So they'll they'll get the work done the next day. But even when you have those bad days like the culture will carry those days too. So that's the cool thing about it.

16:34 >> No, I completely agree and a point to hammer home here that we were for sure going to hit. And you know we see I know you have seen within subcontractors and contractors alike that production over culture. >> Oh yeah. And it is such and I was there myself when and you know what's so funny I wanted to shed light on this because when I cared more about production actually got less production than what I do now and that's surprising >> very very hard for you guys to like grasp into your head. I get it. But by caring about caring about all of the culture items that the team cared about, it drove the result that we all had focus and goals to achieve, which was profitable work transpiring every single day. And on days like that, they understand that, oh, my production rate was this, but they're already focusing on, okay, how do I make this day up by this? Everything went wrong. We're underground contractors. It's going to happen.

17:43 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But you're right. The culture carrying 5:15 on a crappy rainy day, but they know probably in the middle of winter that it may freeze the next day or whatever. It is what it is. They're joking. They're smiling. But, >> you know, when you have that bad culture about a an entire crew, an entire team, it shows up in production. That's where I was trying to go with that is that even when I cared more about production and cared more about the producers on the team, >> I I've never seen production like I've seen this year already. It's been insane. Yeah.

18:20 >> And it's because I've cared more about the culture within the team. Still again, people two weeks ago, they just sometimes don't fit and they just the culture drives them out. So, how do we get there, right? you know, how did we get here in the first place? Yeah, everybody wants to chase the bottom line. I get it. The point of this is to make money. Totally understand, guys. But at the same time, I' I want to care about the individuals.

18:46 As hard as they make it sometimes to care about them, there's a whole another subject matter. Yeah. You know, >> we can sit up here and talk about >> man, you know, culture, culture, culture, and we deploy it, but they still slap us in the face sometimes. Yeah. You have kids, you know what that's >> right. Like, and you know, you can build the culture and you can be running great production, but sometimes they still just leave. And that's okay. But I want to hammer the point home is is if you guys start focusing on your culture, and Dave, I'd love to hear some points. I know you're going to go off on culture over production, but some maybe one, two, three steps of how do we really start focusing on this? Say it's a company that has no clue he's pulling his hair out, you know, and give them some type of tool because I want them to be able to call me in a year or two and be like, "Hey, this culture crap really works."

19:44 >> You know what I mean? man, my my guys actually like coming to work and Saturday they went over here and grabbed this and I didn't even know it. And but no, talk a little bit about that for me. Yeah. So, I'd say the the first thing, especially if you're the the founder or kind of a solo leader, you have to believe these yourself. They they can't be faked. They can't be conjured up. >> They can't just be things that, you know, sound good or sound helpful or sound nice or neat or whatever.

20:16 >> If they're not coming out of who you are as a person, they're fake. And >> for all of our flaws as people, we eventually figure out fake. And once we do, that's pretty unforgivable as especially as you thinking as an employee, like all those things you said were just to get me to work harder. I'm out. I mean, that's that's unforgivable. So, if it doesn't come from deep down inside of you is that's really who you are. That's who you are. you're 5 to9 or whatever they say. That's who I am on the weekends. I am family first on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I'm, you know, I I live with excellence and integrity all all around. If those things aren't coming out of you as the leader, it's not going to work. And that that applies if it's, you know, you're starting this whole process with a small leadership team or what, like whatever the situation is. If everybody at that table, it's not coming out of them personally. It's not going to work. So, that's where it has to start. Because if you're if you're pulling strings because you heard culture makes you more profitable, people will figure that out and that's like I said, that's unforgivable. People will smell that out and they'll call they'll call BS on that so quick and you'll be toast. So that'll kill your culture really fast. So that would be almost before step one. And then I'd say step one, so we were probably about three years old as a company before we kind of formalized our core values. kind of like you mentioned, we kind of know what they are instinctively, but we don't we haven't we haven't named them and spelled them out. And so what we did is we got the opportunity, we were, you know, 15 people or something at the time. We just asked everybody, here's a here's a stack of cards with different words on them.

21:59 Pick six that stick out to you. And so everybody went through and picked six. and then several of them stood way out above all the other ones. We just tallied them up. And so that was really nice. But it like way early we had buyin. So we said we want you guys to I've heard you got to have weigh in to have buyin. I that's been really true. So they weighed in. They said we think these things are the most important. And as a leadership team we were like yeah these there's nothing there's nothing controversial about these. We totally agree. I see these things because we've been operating three years. I see that service is valuable to you guys. You value serving others outside of work, inside of work. I see that. That's an easy one. one of our favorites is grit. That's another one. It's like, yeah, I we can go out on any job site any day and see that you guys you just just figure stuff out. You're gritty.

22:51 You're a gritty bunch of dudes. So, that was really nice just to be able to do it that way. So, we had a ton of buy in. We picked the top six. Maybe rearranged a little bit, but not not much. And then we just started saying, "Hey, we're going to talk about this all the time. We're going to you're going to get sick of it because you're going to hear it all the time." And then past that we started to hire, fire, promote, reward primarily based on core values, not not productivity.

23:20 So even every year when we do our raises, they're sort of a matrix based on how many of our core values you're living out consistently and then how consistently you're doing well at your job. your your raise is more heavily balanced on how you've done with core values than it is about your productivity. >> And that sounds so counterintuitive, but like you said, man, you just see it. You hire better people, you get better work. It's just they can't help themselves. Of course, they would do better work. And we don't do it so that we get more work. We do it because we want to work with people we like working with. And we want you coming to work to have a good experience with your teammates. Not go home like a beat dog and like, man, I hated today and I'm gonna hate tomorrow and I'm gonna hate Friday and then thank God I get the weekend cuz I'm going to hate Monday. We don't want that. We want them to say, I love work. I love the people I work with. We get stuff done. We have fun.

24:15 We're we're on top of things. I mean, that's who doesn't want to work in a place like that? Yeah, it's I mean it is work, don't get me wrong, but the amount of things Thank you for first. Those those points are spot on. Like literally spot on to navigating this because it is very hard to navigate and you know when people hear you say, "Well, we want to have fun and we want to do all this."

24:41 And they're like, "Yeah, right." Yeah. No, no. You if you go with step one, like you said, it's leader buyin. Like you have to create the environment. And some days it's freaking hard. Yeah. To do that. Days like today where it's just like >> it don't matter if you walk five steps, you're getting kicked 10. Yeah. On your way up for the next five, you're you're getting pushed back 20. And it's those days that we really truly get tested as leaders. It's those days you walk out there and you find out a new piece of information and you want to react and you're just like, dude, what?

25:14 >> And you can't. and you understand that your team is always watching you and you have to be outpouring the same subject matter. We're sitting here pouring into them and we have to live it and we have and don't get me wrong, are we allowed to make mistakes? Absolutely. But then hold ourselves accountable in front of our team and go, "Hey guys, >> I definitely messed up there and here's why and here's how I'm going to work on it to fix it. No excuses. I could have been dealing with something. doesn't matter. This is what hap that's what the team has to see. They have to see you buying in. And it was very hard for me.

25:51 Like I can sit here and tell you there was a lot of people that tried to to preach the culture train of me. And honestly, I would just be like, "Man, I've got great culture. What are you talking about?" You know, man, all my guys love me. No, they love getting that check on Friday, homie. They love you throwing a couple hundred bucks here and or going taking them to beach trips or whatever you want to talk about.

26:13 Like that's what they love. >> Still making four different phone calls just to find your excavator. There's a better way. Spoil stack keeps track of your excavation projects, your machines, your load counts, all in one simple app. Your crew logs everything on site, even without cell service. And it all syncs up automatically. Swap the whiteboard for a streamlined operation. Visit spoilstack.com/o/blue to get your whole crew tracking today. Truly finding the people that actually love you and your business within 80% of how you love your business and them is very hard and is very challenging. And those people still may not buy in to the system that you're offering and may be designed around them after they weighed in. But they still may not buy in. And that's really tough to take for you guys. But I hear all the time it is, man, these kids won't work now. I just can't get no help.

27:14 >> Well, it's the same culture that it was 50 years ago and it obviously doesn't work today. >> We've got to learn how to adapt. But, before we go off on that train, back to the, you know, counter over production. >> My god, culture over production. I was halfway listening out there, but culture over production and living by that. I've seen you guys do that. I've I've been around you guys long enough to see it lived out in many different ways and sometimes I'm like hm okay but at the same time at the end of the day I've seen it with my own eyes with my own company with my own numbers that culture does drive production >> hands down like you can't argue with me that it doesn't and back when I cared more about those producers and I'm I'm going to bring this up we were talking just shortly in the green room there, guys, that you know, I had a gentleman happens to be one of my top producers that I've ever had at this company. I mean, an absolute bulldozer, blowhard, just pusher, pusher, pusher.

28:21 Things were going great. Been here about 6 months, but there was some culture items that he had some major issues with, and he stuck out like a sore thumb. I was upset that we're losing one of our core producers, but the system allowed him to train the two other people below him. One of them's been here four years. Just needed somebody to come through and really in just empower him to be that next elevated spot that the team now is going, "Hey, there's no other person we want doing this but this person." you know, because of that high producer bad culture that you can still learn things from people, right?

29:02 But at the same time, the culture drove him to the top. He was the 100% spotlight individual on every movie made. And people don't like hearing that way. A lot of people don't like doing hard things, you know, repetitively over and over again. Like it's it's challenging to navigate these people and especially as leaders once we lose their trust or even you know form and superintendent level when you break that that that camaraderie bond you're over.

29:29 Yeah. >> But there is massive weight I'm sorry massive respect to be gained on the other side of it if they watch you hard nose through it. >> Yeah. And we I just feel like those folks are a little few and far between because there is, you know, grass that's greener on the other side. But man, just like yourself, you said earlier that you you've got some guys that have been here since the beginning that are still So do I. I got absolute grinders and they're not the people that I thought would be here.

29:58 >> Yeah. >> Isn't that funny? >> Yeah. But the culture creation is weigh in, buy in from the top, trickles down, hold people accountable, and you're like, Sai, how does this ever drive production? Well, okay. When it's not a fight about who's going to grease the machine, and it's not a fight about who's going to run the machine, and it's not a fight who's going to drive to the job site, or who's going to wear their hard hat and who's not, and who's going to wear their safety vest, and who's not, and how we're going to dig this line up, or like all of those items. There's some processes involved here obviously, but anytime you're speaking about culture, it's built off of processes and a system that we can all adhere to that we all agree to and we all weigh in on and we're buying in on because we all believe it's going to work.

30:52 >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. There's a pretty good book called the speed of trust that doesn't necessarily talk about the this topic the way we are but it talks about more you know between companies or between different entities >> B2B >> you're this things speed up so much when you trust one another and like if you think about it for 10 seconds you can go oh yeah can I think of a scenario where I trust this person I don't trust this person we do the same thing with both people. This one's way better. It's way faster. We both are more profitable because we don't have to get bogged down in some of the junk. Well, that's obviously true on a crew, too. Like, you're not having two guys yelling face to face about we're doing it this way because because humility is part of your co your culture.

31:43 >> Go. >> And hey, there's there's a lot of ways to skin this cap. Let's just figure out one. We'll try your way today and if it doesn't work, I'm not going to throw it in your face. We'll just try again. having a culture where you're you're empowering people to try new things and knowing they might make mistakes, >> but if they succeed, how much are they empowered? And you might have found a better way to do things. I mean, that that's a huge part of our culture is we're growing so much. You got to have people trying stuff.

32:08 >> Yeah. >> And if you're not making mistakes, you're probably not trying hard enough >> or you're worried about getting fired or reprimanded or whatever. Like that's not our culture. And when people see that come true, hey, that guy made a huge mistake. Yeah. and he didn't get fired and now he's thriving and the company's still alive. By golly, look at that. when you see those things rewarded and when you see bad thing like a high producer is one of the hardest people to let go of cuz you just think like, yeah, he's a jerk, but >> it makes my life easier.

32:40 >> He's getting some footage. You know, those guys are so hard to let go of. And then what you find out when you do is you almost always you go, I should have done that way sooner. And you almost always get respect from your guys because they're like, "Yeah, you told me we're living and dying by these core values." And that guy, everybody knows that guy gets stuff done, but everybody also knows that guy does not live by these core values. And so you took that seriously. We're going to take you seriously when you talk about these core values because we know you mean it. It's not just about getting stuff done.

33:11 >> 100%. >> Of course, we get stuff done, but it's not all about getting stuff done. Productivity is not a culture. Profitability is not a culture. And if if that's only a couple things on your mind as a as a leader of your business, you're you're toast. I mean, you might succeed and and that's fine, but you're not going to enrich people's lives. You're not going to make better men and women that work there. They're just going to you're just going to turn them over. You're going to have a warm body hiring policy. Well, you have a pulse.

33:35 Okay, you're in. You know, could you pass could you pass a drug test? You're in. >> Even if you can't, you might still be in. You know, like just 100%. You got to live and die by that. >> And and you know what? I've been so truthful and vulnerable with my audience. I was there. I was that guy. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> But I also too, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you're even doing.

33:55 >> You're Oh, I got a pot of work. I need a pot of people. I got the machines. All right. Go. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. We lost our tail on everything. Why? What? What happened here? What? What? Oh, why do I have half the people I had now? Who's going to run these machines? And then it's just this constant wheel of and and you and you're sitting there as an owner, founder, executive team sitting there pulling your hair out going, why can't we get anybody to not only buy in but stay and like really see the fruition? But, you know, I have so many stories of people that did this and kind of took advantage and just went went their own way. But the people that did stay and that did persevere, whether they stayed here till now or they've moved on, leaps and bounds. Yeah. But you have got to create that environment that, oh, oh my god, I just cost the company$10,000 or $20,000. I'm fired.

34:59 >> Yeah. >> No, you're not fired. You may have just showed us all something that we didn't know. How did we get here? Was it even your fault to begin with? Or was it the wrong set of plans or man that 87,000 >> situations that we can come up with why it may not be that superintendent's fault? Let's not just jump down his throat immediately. What's the system to get him prepared to get there? So, I'm definitely going a a little off the rails there, but at the same time, the high producers are the ones that are very it seems like the more high producers, it's it's the hardest to get them to buy into the culture because they're like they're like sitting there going, "Well, look what I can do. Look at me." But what I and I was just like that especially warm pulse you're good you're good and go through 10 of them. Oh there's my one you know and hold on to him.

35:55 >> But you know that one high producer I pull >> he's terrible for culture and he was damaging things >> that I had no idea he was damaging. Yeah. >> And the one thing I'll get upset with my people about and they know it quicker than anything is it's not money. Yeah. I have people that have cost me 40, 50, $80,000 and it sucks and it it's terrible and we've chinned through it and everything, but you cost this company a speck of reputation. Yeah.

36:23 >> About how her how how many hurdles we have hopped over in the culture regard core valuebacked reputation of what this company is and what we stand for. >> Yeah. cutting up in a gas station and cussing up through a storm and some lady calls in. Oh, I'm gonna light you up over that. I am gonna absolutely fry them over that. That's just not who we are. Wearing our logo. Oh, hey, we had to spend a day digging up a megalog because we didn't leave it t or we left it loose. Yeah, I'm going to be a little upset. Hey, how do we get here? Two totally different scenarios and I'm going to be more upset about the reputation and how you're outputting what we have built together. You know what I Absolutely. So, >> yeah, we we talk about we want to do this for decades. We don't want to we don't want to get the next job or the next this or the big this. We want to do this for decades. And so, what's it going to take to do that and do that? Well, >> to your point, it's not going to be tightening every mega lug. Although, let's do that. Let's try to do that for sure. Please please and thank you.

37:32 But it's going to be it's going to be your reputation and the trust that's built with so that anybody could say he's not perfect, but he will make it right every time and he will do a great job and you'll enjoy it and it'll it'll be easy for you. It's not going to be this big fight every step of the way. Those are the things that'll allow you to last decades and you don't do that with a bad culture. It doesn't happen.

37:53 So, I found out really quickly, man, that one of the first clips, I didn't even remember Will getting it, but it was the 50 to1 ratio is what I tell my guys all the time. Nobody cares about your 50 good jobs. Yeah, they could have ran absolutely perfect. Come under budget, come under time. >> the superintendent made a bonus. Everybody's just happy over and we're just profiting. Everything's just great. But no one cares. >> Yeah, >> no one cares. But that one bad job.

38:24 Yeah. Yeah. But that one bad job. >> Yeah. That is what they're going to associate you with. Oh, that's them boys that worked over there on whatever street. Oh, where it went to crap and they had that 36 inch blowout. Oh, that's them. Oh, god. What about the 50 other jobs that we ran through your city and nobody ever knew? >> Never heard of them. >> Never heard of them. Who's these guys? You know what I mean?

38:45 >> But that's it's the one bad job. It's the one bad superintendent that you didn't catch out there because your culture that ran a job into the ground. It It just cannot happen. It It really can't. And you know, the high producers are one thing, but it's the low producers. I wanted to talk to you about this more on the not the A players. We're trying to all hire A players, but there's B players and C players here as well.

39:18 >> along, >> you know, to make make all of this go around. I often see where I'm going with this is back to your promotionary based off of culture is that I often see, you know, maybe lower producers, lower performers, buy into the culture, then all of a sudden take training like they've never received before, and then all of a sudden they've gone from a low performer through the culture. Wait a minute. What do you mean we're talking about promotion? He's been here a year.

39:51 like but there the team's saying like there's nobody else. >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> Yeah, that's that's an interesting scenario and that's happened a lot of times through the years too. And sometimes it's stuff that you had nothing to do with like we've had a few guys now become dads and all the sudden all the sudden the switch >> it is. I mean and believe us we had nothing to do with that. They became dads and they were like I want to have responsibility now.

40:20 >> Yep. and they have a an intensity at work that they didn't have before. And so there's things like that that'll happen that, you know, you couldn't have directed or dictated. It just happens. And so those things are cool, too. Sometimes it's getting the right mix of people on teams. >> So we've had that a lot of times where we'll have a team of all good guys, but they're just not getting anything done, and it's because all they need is one person who's a driver.

40:44 >> They'll work their butts off, but they need that one person who's a driver. And so sometimes your team mix, you got to switch that up a little bit. sometimes it's things like you did have that high producer who's not good for culture and then we got to let him go because he's terrible for culture. And then something about that causes a guy to step up and say, "Hey, when you're not the fastest, you're not the smartest, you're not the whatever, but when things get hairy, you're the one who's doing the right thing. You're the one who's who's there. You're the one who will take responsibility. It's not your fault. And when things get upside down like that and you lose your crew lead because he's he's a turd, >> well then that guy is still there and they say, "This is the guy who's really been leading us. This is the guy who got the credit and he's gone now, but this is the guy who's been leading us." So sometimes it's sometimes it's like that.

41:36 And other times it is just, "Hey, you're really you're really smart. You're really kind. You do a good job, but you're just you just seem to be struggling with this or that." And then you have that that blunt direct conversation with them and and a light switch goes on. Oh yeah, that actually makes sense. I feel like that's I feel like that's true. And it's not always it's not always that easy and certainly not always the first time you bring it up. But it's amazing how blind we can be to our own inade inadequacies. And when you have somebody who you know loves you and cares for you says, "Hey, I love you and I care for you. Here's something that you're really not doing well at your job." You take that differently and you take that to heart and you start working on it, >> you know. And the one thing I have learned from brother is how they deliver that information.

42:19 >> Oh yeah. >> Is so different than we normally accept it. >> Yes. >> And it may be a kind of a scenario that you're like, why did he just tell me that? Yeah. >> Like that he knows it's going to stick in my brain. Why did he just tell me that? >> Well, that may be >> the soft guy that doesn't want to come up and confront you about something. his way of telling you that this is an issue or you've got that guy that's gonna let you know about as soon as you freaking hit the door handle on your truck. Yeah, he is coming already hot the truck this that this truck driver and he's going to let you know all about it and you know those people are a little bit easier to deal with because they're going to tell you exactly what's going on. But it is the quiet ones. It's that you know that C performer who's now an A performer because of the culture and environment you have created with your leadership team but now he's sitting there going I don't I I don't know if this is really where it is for me and so leading there you know you have been at at this culture game it's not a game I shouldn't say that but it it people are very it is a game at the end of the day you you just got to win the game but you've been at this much longer, you know, is there things that we haven't talked about? Yes. Production. That is one major thing that people I don't want to slow down and do the safety thing. Is there something else that, you know, maybe I haven't walked into that there's benefits and fruits of from culture that I haven't really tangibly seen yet?

43:53 >> Yeah. So, for sure, on the one hand, it's slower. There's things about it that are slower. hiring is slower >> because you'll you'll find several duds for every one good one. So, some of the warm bodies that you would have said, "All right, throw you in the next fader. Let's get going." You you wrote on here that you have experience. Okay, great. We'll just put you in the next video and see what you can do.

44:16 >> You're passing on those guys now. Yo, >> and just, you know, pure statistics. How many great people are there in the world? How many good people? How many happily decent people are there in the world? Less than there are turds. So, you're going to have to sort through more people to find your few good ones. And what's really hard in this type of work is somebody who has any experience at all and is a good culture fit.

44:40 >> So, what you might have to do is say, "We're going to grow a little bit slower because we're going to have to get some guys who are an amazing culture fit, but they don't have very much experience. and then we're going to have to put them under a guy who is a great culture fit and has the experience to sort of supplement for their weakness. You can see how that's just going to be slower. So, I'd be lying to say like, no, it's just as faster or faster.

45:03 >> The hiring the hiring part is definitely slower. You have to do more to get the same one person at the end of it. There's no doubt about that. The good news is though that you get some synergy as you build more and more good people. They start recommending friends and family who are also that type of person. So, there's some some positive synergy there. But that takes that takes some time. That's just, you know, that's just math. That's just statistics there. But, I will I always like to say like if none of this appeals to you and you're thinking I don't care or whatever, I do like to just say, well, here's there's money in involved in it. And so, if you have a guy for one year, not for two years because they left, they're a bad culture fit. They left or you fired them, you had them for one year instead of two, that's $10 to $20,000 per person. that you lose. So by not having them that second year, so your business is losing money, which makes sense. You don't have the experience. You got to go find somebody, train them to to get where the point where they're actually making money, not losing your business money takes some time. It takes some months and then they finally get to where that person was a year ago. I mean, that's 10 to 20 10 to 20 grand. Not only that, you know this when you mix up teams all the time and people are constantly coming and going, that's a safety issue, too. Not that that's really a money thing, but that's safety is huge. So if your churn is creating safety issues, forget everything else like full stop. Your churn is creating safety issues. Go fix your culture so you can slow down or stop your churn so that you don't have as many safety issues. I always talk to our guys like I I played basketball as you could guess. I was terrible at it, but I did play. And so when you play with a group of guys for a long time, like you just know where they're going to be. So, you can throw the ball and they're going to be there.

46:49 You know where they're going to be. You can pass the ball a certain height above that guy's head because you know he's going to get it. That other guy's not going to get it. Working on a job site's a lot like that. I know where my guys are going to be. You still look, right? I still got to look, but I know they're going to be right there. I know this guy's going to be here. I know what his habits are. I know what his tendencies are when he swings the boom. And that's safe. So, when you got a team that's been working together, they're moving.

47:09 They're grooving. That's safe. So there's a lot of like if you just want to keep it survival instincts, you're losing money with bad culture that creates turnover. You're you're compromising safety. If for no other reason, that should compel you to at least take a look take a look at the culture and see what see what culture you've created. Buy in just a little bit on good culture. Yeah. Is what you're ultimately saying. But safety point is huge. You're exactly right. But, training, I've said it, I don't know how many times on this show, guys, for any type of blue collar industry, whether it's you have really good culture and you're hiring off the street, literal shovel holders, first time they've ever blistered up one, you know what I mean?

47:52 Or, you know, maybe you're a Sparky and you're sitting there trying to hire these apprentices. But, you know, you get that one apprentice, let's talk to electricians, and he's great. man, the this first six months was terrible training and you never thought this kid was going to amount to much. Now it's month eight, month nine, and we're actually running through some jobs and he's he's right where I need him to be and here comes the material and here comes this tool and bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Oh, he jump ship.

48:18 >> Yeah. >> Well, then the office hands you somebody else year one, and you're like, man, I was just we were just getting there. Yeah. >> Like it takes time. I I want to hammer that point home because you you did earlier and you're exactly right. It takes a little bit of time even in the crew mesh in the crew chemistry within that unit. But you're exactly right. You train. I just wanted to preface that situation like you get that person whether it's underground utilities, whether it's electricians, concrete, I don't care what it is. Year one is just basically baby steps. Yeah. And then year two you're like, "Oh, he's actually out there and he's producing a little bit of his wage. That's really cool."

48:57 Yeah, >> but like if you're going to provide this amount of or this environment of a culture, you've got to be okay with constantly training people, then it comes into how we train people, how we train people. And that's a totally different conversation that I don't think many people are ready for. Hint hint, use video. But anyways, there's so many different scenarios that culture comes back to being the baseline. And I hear all the time, I just can't keep people. I just can't build a team. I just can't do this. I just can't do that. Start with personal culture. Check yourself, please. I'm telling you, I have had to really work on myself. And I thought I was a really good leader three or four years ago. And I was in some aspects. In some other aspects, I was totally blind to my own inadequacies and my own failures in some situations that I wasn't even shedding light on at all because I was so focused on getting this machine here, getting this machine here, crew has to start here, this customer wants this d and getting lost in the point A to point B to point D, all of that rather than, hey, homie hasn't slept in a couple of nights and he's worried about, you know, his grandfather or and I didn't ask. I didn't see how he was. I didn't even know about his grandfather.

50:18 >> And that's not okay with me. >> Now, do I got to give up some money and some time? Yes, absolutely. On the front end, but there's it's dividends, guys, is where I was going with that. Is the more more stock you buy, the more times you invest. Now, don't get me wrong. there's days that markets don't have well and the whole thing falls off a ship and we lose a whole crew or we lose two guys that were just how what am I ever going to do past this point. Well, that culture picks up just like you said earlier, it's already pointing to that next person that was, you know, if you have a good training program and you have people on leadership tracks, which is all good culture, right?

50:57 it then next person's going to be sitting there waiting in line that you didn't even think was ready for that job, but the whole entire team's going, "Hey, look, we know he's going to make mistakes or she's going to make mistakes, but that's the person that we want to follow. That's the person that has been leading us behind the scenes to get us all of this production and everything that we've got. That's the person." And you're sitting there going, >> "What? I thought it was Well, no, we all we all did not like that person and we put up with them. they but they will also sit there and go we did learn things from them but there's also some things that we learned that we don't want to learn from them. So >> yeah, >> no points proven there, brother. It you have to by the way, shameless shout out here. David is a fantastic LinkedIn follow. for sure, if you want to stay in tune with the culture environment, he has turned me on to many books and many other people within our industry that care about the same thing we do. because me and David sitting in the room, I think we're probably a little bit different than most of the marketplace. And I've had to change, don't get me wrong. I didn't start off this way, but I I've always cared and everybody will always tell you whether they hate my guts or not. I care about your family. I care about their family first. And I don't think there's many people out there will ever argue that out of 10 years. I've had a lot of people come and go for a lot of different various reasons. But if it spills out of you, you've got to enact it. provide those core values, start building a foundational base to change that culture. That's what I'm saying. If you've created bad culture, guys, take some personal reflection, work on yourself. It's you probably, it was me, had to change course, had to change direction, and then show self-acountability when those times did come for me to fold like a daggum lawn chair or take the hard road. I had to take the hard road.

52:57 as embarrassing, as shameful as pride. Pride, I had to set the pride down. And the ego, I mean, my name's on your shirt. It doesn't freaking matter, dude. I ain't nobody but a vessel. And so, once you figure that out in life and that switch we were talking about, those kids really help with that. And >> yeah, it really does. I want I've got a we're fixing to have to close it up here, but I've got it's funny a guy that has worked for me almost four years and babysat him as a kid. Me and his dad go way back and not really babysat but just watch the kids, you know, and he was probably my middle daughter's age and here he is getting married on Friday and to the love of his life, shout out. and I'm excited to go watch him, but I had a phone call with him earlier today and it's just a testament to everything that we've been working on and he is just so excited. He's got this week off obviously for his wedding and getting ready and a couple of days off for honeymoon and whatnot. And but he is that guy fixing to step up in that role.

54:06 And I already can hear just by the way he's formulating sentences. He's thinking totally differently like this pressure is amounting. He's 22 23. We were all at that point of like oh man this adulting thing really sucks. Like I'm going to have to get better at this >> cuz man life keeps kicking me you know. So, but at the same time watched him and he went through a lot of the bad culture. Like, >> yeah, >> he's heard it all. He's heard everything about me, but he knew who I was. He knew who my wife was. He understands what we're about. We love Jesus at the ultimate. At the end of the day, we make mistakes, but we will own up to him, and we will make that 50 to one, that one bad job. said all of that this episode to to sum this up. that one bad job. That's the job that will land you that next customer. That's the job how you make that mistake and then go, "Dang, I made that mistake, guys. Hey, give me just a second. Give me let me let me give my bearings. Here's a couple of solutions. This one's time. This one's money. Obviously, I'm, you know, eating all of this. Which one do you prefer?" And we'll execute. And I have won more jobs and more clients off of really bad jobs ever than I ever, you know, hey, look at us. We slapped that in way way before your schedule. And it's because of the culture of self-accountability and going, hey, >> dang, I really screwed that up. And I've screwed up culture a lot along the way.

55:41 But it is really starting to shine light through with individuals like you know the guy I was just talking about or said that situation that is making me move differently. So thank you. >> Yeah. >> Number one for being a mentor when it comes to that you the good Lord sent you right cross past perfect timing because man boy did I need you at that moment in my life and still do. So >> it's a mutual blessing.

56:08 Can I can I add one more thing just to to think about is whether >> whether we believe it or acknowledge it or not. We are stewards of our people. So even saying our people they're not they don't belong to us. >> That's right. >> They never did. They never will. They're choosing to work for you. You're choosing to let them work here. So we're in a an optional relationship here. But we're stewarding their time and experience here at our companies for a short time. And so it's not about keeping them forever. It's not about training them so you can squeeze every last drop out of them. It's not about making them stay 2 or 3 years so they can finally be profitable. At the end of the day, it's are they going to leave here a better man or woman than when they walked in? Are they going to leave here with good experiences? Are they going to leave here saying I would work I would recommend anybody go work for them. I just had this other opportunity.

57:01 Are you helping them create new opportunities for themsel? I want to be a drywall repair guy someday. Great. That's not what we do. How can I help you get there where you can do that? What What do you need to learn to do that? So, we're stewarding people for the however many months or years that they're with us. And that's kind of at the heart of core values. Let's steward this group of people trying to do something together. Steward that really, really well. And that's kind of my like my personal driving force behind this is, hey, are you going to are you going to leave better off than when you started here? As much as that's within my power or control, I'm going to try to make sure that that happens. So, I think that's a that's a good question to ask ourselves. Are people leaving here better than when they came here? It has I've me and Sarah, that's been our one thing be like, man, I thought that guy was going to be here forever. I have figured out that, you know, Saon has been a stepping stone for some people to really launch pad their lives.

58:00 >> Yeah. >> And whether it be personal, whether they may not even be in the industry anymore, whether they're doing their own thing, >> multiple different cases, but it's always propelled them upwards or forwards. Whether they left here not liking me or the company or whatever, they've always gone forwards or upwards. Yeah, I can't. It's not because of me, but it's because of what we have created as a team and as a unit and course corrected when it was off and when it was bad to get it to where it is today.

58:33 But no, the kind of the final the final question here is and I pretty much ask everybody on the show, but I'm going to get more specific to the guy that's sitting there or the gal that's listen listening today sitting their truck or on a machine or wiring a house or whatever they're doing and they're sitting there just absolutely pulling their hair out. They've got two or three crews trying to project manage. They've never heard the word culture before. They're so frustrated with people using and taking advantage of them and they're trying to give their full heart to these people and they're just using and abusing them. How, you know, especially nowadays, people are so quick to jump to do whatever and these people get hardened >> just like myself and yourself. And you know, >> the good book we read gives us options to go, you know, back to him and and push that on to him. But at the same time, brother, there's a lot of people out there that don't necessarily know that's a route, but >> you know, what would you say to them?

59:41 Yes. Not just step for step, but to them sitting there in that truck going, "Man, I don't know what I'm going to do. I think I have just created a freaking monster." >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you kind of allude to my undeniable first advice would be to find your meaning and value in in the Lord. now that that covers so many things that we talked about, but you know, assuming that that's, you know, not not their interest at the moment, I would just say don't give up.

60:10 >> even if you have to start over from square one to rebuild something healthy with your culture, do it. It's worth it. Even if it means starting over. >> for fortunate to live where we live in the United States and you can start over. multiple times. truly, I mean, you can you can you can scale back and start over again. And if that's what it takes to to get to a place where you can be healthy as a person, as a leader, and then you can start creating healthy culture, cuz like I said, it it's it may be a fool's errand to try to create a healthy culture from an unhealthy heart. So, if you're if you're dying inside, it's going to be pretty darn hard to to create a healthy culture. So, fix that. Work on that. and then start over if you have to just to rebuild a healthy culture. That is the type of place you would want to work as an employee. I would want to work at a place like that.

61:06 >> That's right. >> I would want to work for a boss like that. If you can't say that about yourself, >> o let's Yeah, reset start there. Yeah, >> for sure. >> No, that's that's But don't give up. >> It's easy to give up. You've probably already done all the hard parts. You know this at this stage in your journey. Why give up now? We've done all the hard stuff. We've made all the mistakes. We've we've taken all the lumps. We've spent our we cost ourselves all that money. Why stop now? Start over. Don't give up and build something that's that's healthy and thriving.

61:36 >> I think you gave you alluded to scaling back. And you know this audience and our YouTube audience and over on Saon, they they know exactly what we've done you know in 2023. We 30-ish people and just ripping and roaring and but our culture sucked. It was chaos and I've just now figured that out. Yeah. >> You know because of the good culture that we've created, but it's taken a lot of my time ensuring that I have bought in and created these changes and course corrections of I don't want it to be like that anymore. I didn't want it to be like that to begin with, but I I just went from a superintendent to a CEO overnight and everything just hit me all at once, you know, and sorry, no, that's I didn't think that was as important as the you know, millions of dollars over here that I'm having to worry about and shoulder and all the debt and all the things, you know, but you can't let that outweigh yourself, guys. You cannot you've got to pause. most important thing item person the people is what I'm trying to get at is the most important asset in your entire company it's not the shiny yellow iron it's not the GPS it's not the softwares it's not AI it's the people at the end of the day the tools that you allow them to have will and the culture you provide them will equal your success truly so Mr. David, thank you.

63:04 Seriously, it's been an absolute wonder of an episode and I truly hope this helps you guys in some way in some way somehow. And if you don't mind, leave a review. Share it with somebody that you are sitting there going, "Oh man, this sounds just like so and so. I'm taking his phone calls every day. This is what he needs." Shoot this over to him. And I would really appreciate that guys for all the love that you've been sharing on Spotify. You guys are just absolutely killing it over there.

63:36 YouTube guys, the subs and follows and likes and it's been insane. And as we close into 100 episodes, the message is still the same. Trying to help bluecollar businesses understand business. I get it. you understand your trade, but if you're anything like me, you really sucked at business at one time and you needed conversations like today to move far further along onward, upward, further any of them. So, Mr.

64:07 David, thank you for your time and, guys, till next time, you guys be safe out there. If you've enjoyed this episode, be sure to give it a like, share it with the fellas, check out our website to send us any questions and comments about your experience in the blue collar business. Who do you want to hear from? Send them our way and we'll do our best to answer any questions you may have. Till next time, guys.