Victor Lazarte and Henrique Dubugras - Game On: The billion dollar untold story

0:00 hi all welcome back from your break my name is Laura dubugras I'm a master student in CS at Stanford and I'm in the organizing Committee of Brazil Silicon Valley in the content team I'm thrilled to announce uh our panel Victor lazarte and Enrique dubugras to lead the panel game on the billion dooll untold story Victor is a general partner at Benchmark investing across gaming consumer fintech and application software prior to joining Benchmark Victor started and ran

0:30 Wildlife Studios bootstrapping into the largest gaming company in Latin America with about four billion downloads Victor was a seed investor in brex and as a board member Enrique is the co-founder and co-o of brex and most importantly my husband brex is the AI powered corporate spread platform with corporate cards expense management payments and travel all in one place dubugras co-founded brex in 2017 with Pedro peski who is also speaking later today and today brex has tens of thousands of customers

1:01 including notable companies such as door Dash coinbase and air table don't forget to ask your spicy questions on Hua and please give a warm welcome to the stage Victor and [Applause] [Music] Enrique Victor thank you so much for uh agreeing to do this with me oh it's my pleasure it's great to be here it's great to like talk with you and see so many familiar faces well before we start

1:34 um so Victor and I actually know each other for a long time uh you know maybe like since I was uh 17 and so before we start I wanted to tell a story about um how Victor was actually my mentor since the very early days and uh was not only on business things so uh when I turned 18 you know Victor and I were already friends and he was mentoring a lot of things business-wise um I wanted to do

2:00 something for my 18th birthday and Victor was like have you ever been to a nightclub I'm like no um would you like to go to one called Villa mix and I was like yes um so Victor uh bought me my first table when I was 18 years old and took me for my 18th birthday at this nightclub um I'm going to skip the details of what happened last night that night but I'm just going to say that um

2:31 you know Victor had to buy some new shoes and I learned a valuable lesson about alcohol so uh that's how long uh you know we've been uh he's been mentoring me and helping me in many aspects of life um so so Victor to to start off uh the first time that we've met um you know uh you told me a little bit about uh your business and I was just kind of mind blown that no one had ever heard about

2:57 it and I I guess that's the theme of the panel game on the billion doll untold story um so I would love to hear just a little bit of you know tell us about wildlife and how you started and how did you start to build like that kind of company you know like at that moment in time sure so I started um Wildlife 14 years ago like 13 14 years ago like uh beginning of 2011 and I started with my

3:25 brother um so the two of us we we loved like we learned how to code in and in high school and like we love technology but the really interesting thing that was happening in 2011 was the app stores were first getting started and I think there's a lot of parallels to what we're seeing today with AI there was so many like small applications that that people just felt like oh this like this is funny this is

3:52 magical so we all like we always heard these stories about people that very small teams did something that people liked and and started get interaction so so Arthur and I uh we decided to we decided to create video games for mobile phones and at the time like startups weren't weren't cool in Brazil and like the Venture Capital scene like was not what it is today so we went around and we tried to to raise a seat BR and the

4:20 the mo like okay we talked to like I don't know probably like 20 people and like 19 of them like said no and then one of them told us like oh like yeah like I I'd love to partner with you and like I'm I'm not going to give you money I'm going to give you something that is way more valuable than money I'm going to give you my advice and you're going to give me 20% of your

4:39 company and and so that was the second best offer and the best offer was someone offered a $50,000 for half the company and we obviously couldn't take that as well so um what we did instead is like my brother and I we moved back to to parents place and for the first few games like we did everything like we coded we did the graphic design and like that's why our first few games uh didn't look that good what was the first few

5:04 games tell us a little bit about so the first game that we did was more like a prototype was like this very simple tennis game that we we we buil in a week and we launched it life turns around now you have the largest tennis game in the world right that is correct but but this the current game is much better than this this first one but but I think that the thing that like there's so much luck

5:26 involved and like a lot of what allowed us to um create Wildlife was just getting the time right and the first game that we launched was this this tennis game was a paid game and I remember like we launched it and as soon as it was live uh we started making $2 a day and and to us that was so cool it like you know like you go to college and like you learn stuff and then finally

5:51 like you make a product and then you put it out there and then people want it and then people pay money for it and it's it's just simple but she was like that was that was so cool but obviously like we couldn't we couldn't build a business on top of that but then for a second game we decided to launch it for free and like that's what that's what changed everything because like all all most mobile games now are free but at that

6:15 time like it was revolutionary it's like hey you build a products like how come you're going to give your products away for free uh but that second game was called Racing Penguin and then at one point uh has everyone here anyone here played Racing Penguin in their lives before that's awesome oh wow that's awesome and and so so uh this was the beginning of the iPhone and then at a at a one point in time 50% of the iPhones

6:38 in Brazil had bracing pengu so uh oh wow yeah like that was what allowed us to like start a company so so tell us a little bit more about you know kind of what was going on at that time right like you hear the story today um and correct me if it was wrong but then you guys like you guys were making like hundreds of thousands in profit like the first few months right that the company

6:59 started and that's like the dream of any entrepreneur imagine you start a company and your first few months you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of profit you know like could be harder um but like what do you think was about what you guys did and the environment that going on that allowed that to happen at that moment in time and you know are you seeing any parallels of today and AI based on that I think

7:16 there's there's amazing parallels and this is the most exciting time in technology for sure over the last 15 years and you know like we're we're here and there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this room there's a lot of people that will start a company and there's a chance like there's a good chance that someone here in this audience will start a company and that company will go on to be a hundred billion dollars like worth a

7:42 hundred billion dollars because right now there's this new technology and at the time it was the same thing and the signs that that you can that that make you understand that yeah like this is a very special moment in time is uh so the thing that made me go into okay I need to create apps is I don't know if you guys remember but there was uh there was an app in the iPhone in the beginning

8:04 that was called the beer app and it was uh so you you opened the app and like it was just this a photo of like a a beer and then if you tilted like the level of the beer like remain the same and people are like wow like this is Magic like look at this right and and right now it's like this is dumb but but that that that app went on to make like tens of

8:25 thousands of dollars because of the novelty right and the parallel that I see with AI is there's there's so many stories so there's this story of like this uh influencer that created a bot that's basically a rapper around chat GPT and then she allowed all of her followers to talk to her and she charge the dollar per minute and that influencer made $100,000 in a month and and to me like of course like these things are not

8:51 durable right like these things are not like 10 years from now that thing's not not going to exist but the fact that there's a technology that captures people's imagin makes it so that people are willing to try and now entrepreneurs can start a company and they can launch an app that becomes very simple like I did with like this tennis game but then you use that to build something more sophisticated uh and and because the great companies they they start when

9:17 when new platforms get formed absolutely and I I totally believe that and can can see the parallels um so tell us a little bit uh about you know your in that first begin right like there was not a lot of venture capital in Brazil what was the year that you started 2011 2011 beginning 2011 yeah um so not too much uh inventure Capital going on in Brazil uh and you ended up raising uh your your first round uh but you were super

9:44 profitable I guess like one why did you decide to raise Venter Capital um and two uh what were you know how did you raise money from the US I guess you know how do you even meet investors like how did it even happen yeah so I'm I'm so excited for the Brazilian ecosystem because in the end like what startups need to exist is just a lot of like talented people and they're just so many talented people

10:08 in Brazil I think Brazil has a lot of great engineering schools um but the problem is a lot of times like you need to talk with people that have done things before have seen things before you know like we're here in Silicon Valley and and to me the thing that was always puzzling is like how come the majority of the most interesting companies in the world are started within a 50 miles radius of like where we are right now and and and to me it's

10:36 like it it's because um there's knowledge you know like the the people for example we here at the Google building and and the people that started Google like they learned a lot from the people that that came before they learned from like Steve Jobs that started Apple um or they learned from Microsoft and like every every time and then like after like after Google like Facebook came along and then Facebook got a bunch of people from Google and like so the knowledge uh

11:04 gets shared right and so so when I decided to raise Venture Capital like the company was nine years old like we had done a bunch of things uh but we were we started as Act Two for the company where we went from being um just a creator of games to a platform for game designers and this this great game designers they were spread all over the world so we needed to create a platform like we needed to find these designers

11:29 and what I didn't need the capital but I needed the knowledge and like there's so much knowledge here so when I raised my series a I raised it from from Benchmark because I met a few investors and and my belief is like hey these guys they're gonna they've seen companies grow and like they know what other things needed and they'll help me uh take the company to to where it can be right and and to me like the lesson that I take from it

11:54 is um if you if you're able to match like this knowledge about company building that exists in the valley with the tal in Brazil like that that really is the secret to creating amazing companies so if you look at the most successful um technology companies in Latin America it's like there's there's two there's like two very very big uh success stories like there's Mercato Li and and newbank and there's something very interesting about this two companies

12:25 that both of them were started by people that that lived for a long time very close to where we are today and and when they moved back to to Latin America they brought a lot of the best practices right so so I guess it's like a very long way of answering your question that to me the important thing was like Hey how do I access this knowledge makes sense and you know now that you you did access it right like um

12:54 what were some of the things that you it was the most like I would Say Non obviously surprising to you that about how people do things here that we're like for you as like a Brazilian entrepreneur you changed the way you did things or were not obvious at all like what were some of the I would say biggest learnings that you didn't see other Brazilian entrepreneurs kind of applying back then I know now it's like probably a lot a little bit more

13:18 widespread but when you're building a company so I think the biggest advantage that Silicon Valley has is that it's it's an ecosystem based on trust so people trust each other and like people trust investors and people reach out and everyone here not everyone but a lot of people here they love spending time with

13:48 a young entrepreneur that is doing something interesting and so there's this culture of like reaching out and spending time together so when I started Wildlife I think that that I had this like very bad experiences early on with people that frankly like they're just trying to take advantage of me uh but but that that had like a bad effect because my brother and I we got like very isolated after that so we decided that okay like if you

14:14 reach out to people try to interact with people most times like people want to take advantage of you so like that's not worth it so like let's just like focus on the business do what do what we want like do what we we know have to do but the problem the problem is like if you isolate yourself there's just so much there's so many problems that companies have that other companies have solved before and if you're not if you're not

14:37 talking to people that are further along that that have been through the problems that you have you're kind of like Reinventing the wheel all the time and I think that was a I think that was like a big mistake that that we did early on and like coming here we learned that a little bit of like the magic of this place is this is like if you have a problem like the maybe 10% of the time you're going to

14:59 sit down and like you're going to invent something new but 90% of the time is like okay who else had this problem before and like how do I talk with this person and like how do I implement the best practice so on the on the the topic of mistakes would you say that was one of the biggest mistakes that you had like tell us a little bit about you know what was the [ __ ] you know obviously

15:18 the story is a very big success but like what were the fuckups so you you were we were very close at that time uh so so you know that when people reach out to me a lot of times like I didn't like to talk about maybe I'll tell you guys every time people asked Victor what he did he said he did like something on top of AWS you know that was his thing I was like Victor but you do games like yeah

15:40 but we have AWS mixed in here somewhere you know so tell us why were you so secretive so I think like we desperately we desperately wanted the company to be successful right I was like hey this is like our life this is like we spend our entire time here and and to us it's like okay okay you reach out to other people and like like are they going to help you and and it was it was a problem of trust and

16:05 I think that was like and I think that was probably like our biggest mistake so for years like we didn't we didn't like reou other people because we thought okay like there's we're not going to gain anything and even so we didn't go to like a lot of events and like and even when we did it's like okay people wanted to learn more about our business and we're we're like we're kind of secretive about it right but that

16:25 started changing uh and so so you talk about how how much I help to but you also helped me a lot and a lot of the way you helped me is like um you you're very open and like you very you were talking to a bunch of people and like and I saw how that benefited you and so and like you you introduced me to Geor Paulo and like and I when I met him I was like wow like this guy is he knows

16:47 so much about business like he knows much more than I will like over the the like decades and he's he's here like he's willing to help me like he's spending time advising me and and to me like those things like start clicking right and and then like I I tried to like get the time back but of course uh we lost a few years so so let's talk a little bit now about your your shift um

17:12 to to to VC but before that um so you know you we met many years ago and I was working pagara which was our first company it was a payments company down in Brazil um and you were not an investor but yet you spent hundreds of hours probably helping us out and uh helping us with all of our our problems which you know now it's a little bit of of your job as of VC but like I guess

17:37 why why did you do that back then I think I think technology is the coolest thing and to me um seeing like I think seeing how one person that is very determined like using technology can do something that that affect the lives of so many people like that is so cool and and to me like when I met you like you were you were 16 you weren't 17 uh and and I was like wow like this kid like this kid so sometimes

18:10 you meet people and you get this feeling it's like wow like this guy's gonna do something and I and I felt that I was like this guy like he has this idea he wants to start this company I think this thing is going to work and it's like okay I want to be part of this like I think we live in the most incredible time and and so right now like what the part that I love most about my job is a

18:33 few times like a week like someone comes in and every once in a while like you see someone and you see the passion and like you see a person that is like oh there's this things happening in the world and like I'm going to combine these different things in in a certain way and and I'm going to touch the lives of so many people right so so I think that is so yeah like I I end up spending

18:56 like a 100 hour like hundreds of hours with you and and pagari like that there was no economic benefit right and cu cu in the end like it's it's about like the Love Like Love Of Company building the law of Technology but it it ended up turning out fine because when you started brex you invited me to be your your seed investor right hopefully made it up for with brex so yeah um yeah no totally and

19:18 and you know obviously uh you've you've been an investor since the seed round and our board member since the since the beginning as well and extremely active and and helpful so tell us like you know why like I guess first is um why go to VC and then uh I'll ask a little bit about Benchmark after but let first just start there yeah so my my passion was always like like technology and and I loved games

19:47 and I I did games for 13 years and when my brother and I we started the company the go is like hey like let's make a product that people like uh and and we made games that like over a billion people played so in a sense I feel like oh we kind of like scratched that it and and like learned everything that is to not everything but like I learned a lot about like mobile games and then to me

20:10 it was like oh I was so curious about learning about all the companies right like and and I feel like we're just in this super interesting time uh where this new technology has been created and I wanted to be exposed to all of that right and so to me was either like okay do I want to start a new company um or or do want to become an investor and you know and like I still I

20:35 still think a lot about these two things um and the the great advantage of like starting a company is like you have a team and like this there's nothing cooler than working with a group of people to solve an important problem right so so a lot of times like I miss that and then the thing that really attracted me about VC is like you're not you're not looking at one problem like you're looking at a bunch of problems so

20:59 after 13 years doing one thing I was okay like I want to see like I want to see more but I wanted to do it in a way that it was not like oh you write a 100 checks and like you don't talk so so touching that like let's go to about Benchmark a little bit because you know obviously for for those who don't know um Benchmark is like this very secretive uh VC firm that everyone knows but you

21:21 open their website it just a benchmark there there's like nothing else and they probably had the best returns in the industry over the last 20 years um with basically just I think six Partners right and five five Partners uh and that's the entirety of the team um I guess like how how now that you're in right like you know we all admired from the outside you took money from them like H H how do you guys do it yeah so

21:49 so Benchmark I hope I hope we're not secret like that's definitely not not intentional but I think our strategy is like is is somewhat different and like we keep things very simple like we're five Partners uh the idea is that each partner makes an investment uh one investment a year and when you make an investment you join the board and like you're on the board of that company for an average of 10 years and it's because the the

22:19 profile is like it's kind of like early stage like series a but it's for people that kind of like me they don't know if they want to start a company or they want to become an investor so it's like okay you invest but you have a lot of your time goes into like helping the company right because the reality is it's so hard for an investor to help a company because like you think about how the problem is set up an entrepreneur

22:44 that makes a great company he's a very capable person and like he's spending like 24 hours like thinking about one problem so how can an investor from the outside be helpful and then our belief is like the only way you're helpful is if you have a ton of Contex context on that company like so you gota gotta come in early you gotta have a lot of time to spend with the founder to spend with the executives so like that is so that is

23:08 our model like we uh make very few Investments we spend a ton of time with the companies and then it kind of like self- select and like over time uh people come to trust the brands people come to trust the firm and then like a lot of the like great entrepreneurs uh they have a bunch of options so like they decide should work with with a where like the partner will spend time with them okay so this is a question the

23:33 first question I had for Victor after he joined Benchmark that was very curious about which is you know we uh all as entrepreneurs we fund raise right that's a decent part of the job but I kind of always worned that it like what are the secrets now that you're in the other side you know what are the like what are the things that you know you're actually looking at you know like being on the VC side the founders like ourselves before

23:56 you know didn't appreciate yeah so when I I was like advising people to fund raise when I was an entrepreneur and like when I I fundraised I thought that okay it's all about the metrics so I gotta have like these very good metrics you know like I gotta show them like oh here's my revenue is my retention like here's how it compares to like other companies and now the thing I understand is like it's so much like about the

24:24 person and it's so much about the chemistry like hey it's almost like it's almost like so if an entrepreneur is is raising money especially on the early stages and like you're bringing in a um a board member it's it's like you're hiring an employee that you can't fire so your board member is your employee that you can't fire so it's it's kind of scary right um and then it's like okay so so there's a lot of like personal

24:49 chemistry and then so for Benchmark we look like we look a little bit at what sector the company's in but more importantly like we look at the person right and one thing that that is so important to us is like okay what's the motivation that this entrepreneur has and we have a framework that like we like to think about what are the things that motivate people and there's there's a few different ways that people can be

25:14 motivated so people have their um people have like a generative Drive which is like this um will to like see something exist in the world and then we also have like a competitive Drive which is like hey like I need to win and the other motivation is like okay you have like a pleasure drive so like we all we want want to like feel pleasure right so we try to understand okay like where is this coming from like you meet the

25:40 person and okay like he wants to to create a company like what is where is that coming from like is this and the the if you want to do wow it's like hey just be very authentic like okay what why why is this so important to you so this was before my time but at Benchmark uh we we led the Investments at Snapchat and then I was I was talking to the person like oh how do you guys make

26:07 the decision and at the time like it was just like a a message that disappeared and I think the company valuation was like $60 million or something like that and then like it's like okay there's like aan he came in and he's like social media is about people communicating and like people becoming friends and people are not friends on Facebook like on Facebook people want to show off but it's not like like true relationships and and and the person saw

26:37 it it's like oh this is very authentic like this is a guy that 10 years from now he'll be working on that problem and so to me that was something that I I didn't understand at the time but it's so much of like how investors make their decisions so this is a a little bit of an odd question you know based on that but like you know there's a lot of Brazilians here and um as you can

26:59 probably identify right like uh you're not necessarily like the same or can transmit the same passion in Portuguese and in English you know like that's like that's like a real thing so is there something a Brazilian can do about that or just talk to you and you know that's the secret it's such a hard honestly this is such a hard problem uh and like I joke to people that when I'm like even today I've been living in the US for four

27:26 years but I talk to people and in English like I lose 10 IQ points and and I was uh I was recently interviewing uh an EA I was I was hiring an EA and then the EA came to me oh like your team said that there would be a language barrier but I don't feel it I'm like what uh so but it's it's it's very hard you know so I think man how to solve this yeah I think I think you can if you

27:57 can find if if you can if if you're not like if English is not your first language or if you haven't spent like a few years here you got to be very aware that it's going to be it's going to be harder to like deliver that that message with with the same intensity right so finding like finding partners that have somewhat like a a uh a a similar cultural cultural background or even like I think I think there's a lot of

28:23 like uh if you if you look at it a lot of like immigrant Founders they raised from from like immigrant uh investors my entire board is immigrant investors exactly like all of them 100% 100% so I don't think I don't think that's by chance um and and ideally is like okay so Miki is on your board and like his his from like Venezuela but even like if you raise from some from India like they have they

28:47 have like empathy right like they understand that it's the way you communicate is a little different totally totally so you know like look you took Wildlife um from zero to you know hundreds of millions of Revenue over billion billions of downloads and billion plus people playing your games you know and um now you're an investor and I I know it's hard to pick a few but um what is like one of what are a few learnings that you

29:19 know you think you could share with the Aspire entrepreneurs here around building businesses like what really matters and how to do what really matters matters and I know this is very broad but you know give it your best shot yeah hardest question right uh so much goes into like building a company so generic advice it's hard but I think one thing that I didn't realize in the beginning was when people when people join your team like why do they want to join your

29:52 team right and I think if you're a very hot company like so so many people will like will interview and like they want to work with you because you're very hot um the problem is like startups like it doesn't matter how good you are like startups like they have ups and downs so one day you're going to be very hot the next day you're not going to be hot like the next day it's you're going to be the

30:15 opposite and so in the beginning like I was always recruiting for okay how like how capable is this person and over time and a sometimes so we have a gaming company and like gaming is this really interesting things and like this really interesting thing and and people love like a lot of people are super passionate about games and and some people gave me the advice like hey like you should hire people that really love games and I was

30:42 like ah and then you know like 13 years you go through the ups and downs and then what I learned is like man the people that stay it's the people that love your mission and in the beginning I was this young entrepreneur and like when you're young you think you know everything and it's like oh like these people give me this advice it's not good but frankly the an employee that has been with you for like like five years 10

31:10 years like that knowledge compounds so much and the only way like someone's gonna stay with you for for a very long time is like if it's if he loves the mission because at some point in time something more interesting will come along it's like something shinier but when the when the person's passion is what what you're doing like that that that compounds a really nice way so I think this is something that I under indexed at the beginning of the

31:41 company that's that's great advice um so please start sending questions because we're going to go through some Q&A and I get them on the iPad over here so now is the time to start submitting them if you haven't but um but I totally agree with you and you know that's something that I remember uh when when we were at series B I remember even doing a podcast and saying the opposite you know I was like you don't need to hire people that are

32:03 mission driven and I completely changed my mind at the time I was just having trouble getting people to be passionate about corporate credit cards you know maybe gaming is a little bit easier um but turns out there's a bunch of them out there um so I I guess like you know let's talk about Brazil a little bit right like you're you're an investor in Benchmark um and historically I think uh I think you guys have done most of their deals

32:28 in the US but you know a few International ones like are you interested in Brazil are you interested in Latin America what kind of businesses are are you looking to do down there yeah I'm so interested in Brazil and the thing that the thing that makes me super interested in Brazil is I think fundamentally startups are about Talent there's so much talent in Brazil and I think the fact that like a lot of the most well like a lot of the most

32:55 well-known VCS like they're not that interested in Brazil like creates an even like bigger opportunity right and so so first I think this is the best time to start a company in the last 10 years because of like the the what dis advantages in AI create so I'm sure that within the next couple years someone will start a company in Brazil and that company will be as big as new bank but the entire problem is like

33:26 knowing like okay like what's the company and and in what sector right let me know if you find out by the way you let me know um so well you touched on AI right so and let's talk about AI in Brazil then like you know clearly a lot of the technology disruptive companies or global companies historically came out of Silicon Valley or the US and there's some here and there and in in Europe and stuff like that but you know vast

33:57 majority came out out here um Wildlife was one of the few companies I think it's probably the only maybe there's like one more technology company but definitely the most successful one that was a global company based off of Brazil yeah um so if you're an entrepreneur in Brazil like what's your intuition around you know should I start a global company should I start a company focus on Brazil what kind of companies you think will do well coming out of Brazil versus you

34:24 know maybe if I have an AI ID I should just move to the Bay Area and do it here so I think there's types of companies that can be created anywhere like there types of companies that need to be uh in a specific geography I think the best opportunities in Brazil I think there like a lot of really great opportunities in Brazil to serve the Brazilian market and if you wanna if you want to start like said like oh someone wants to

34:53 do an AI company within AI there's a bunch of different things right so if you want to create a company that is developing like new models then I don't think you can do that in Brazil if you're creating like the new LM the LM that will like beat Gemini the the difficulty of like starting something like that in Brazil is like it's this is an effort that is not done by one person like you need a

35:15 team and then if you look at all the if you look at all the great Labs they'll all started by people that left another lab right so like entropic is like people that left um open Ai and then open AI is people that left Google and like if you look at M it's like people that left Facebook so if you're you want to create a new Alem in Brazil that'll be really hard because like to do that

35:39 you need to get people that are living these companies and it's extremely hard to like get people to move from like Silicon Valley to Brazil so on the like model creation layer I think it would be very hard to make a company in Brazil but on the application layer I don't think that's the case like I think um if you want to create a global technology company from Brazil it's very doable and and I think the the path to do it is you

36:03 create a we create an application that uses a lot of the uh technology that like open AI is providing as apis right now which is which is a similar Playbook to what what we did at Wildlife right so I think if you want to do Global I think uh applications on top of LMS is a great place but I think the end tapped need is the Brazilian market like the Brazilian Market is such a large large market and

36:30 if you're able to like so especially people that are here I I think that if you're able to import Knowledge from Silicon Valley to Brazil there's so many opportunities uh to to attack so that's like that's probably like where where I would go so I'm going through the questions here and I'm choosing the ones that I'm curious about too so um yeah and I'm curious about your answer this it's something that I I think about it

36:56 you know like every country has its like culture right like you know pros and cons of the culture um at Brazil we definitely have our culture right and you can you can argue uh you've been here for a while the same as me like what are the things that you think Brazilians are Advantage you know like things that were were actually slightly better than than than the rest of the world