Jensen Huang Declares AGI Has Arrived | Tesla Launches Cybercabs | Index Pulls Out of Town

0:00 There's going to be no financial math you can use to buy the stock. When someone goes risk on, everyone goes risk on. >> Welcome to Venture, baby. >> This week, AGI's arrived according to Jensen Huang. Next, we have OpenAI releasing GPT Astra. And what on earth is going on with the AI assistant race, Meta also releasing their product, this and so much more in this discussion today. I would imagine as we speak there are 20 engineers locked in a room in somewhere in PaloAlto. I meant literally with guards on the door saying nobody eats and nobody leaves until you ship instant clone >> 12 billion for a bootstrap company. Now it's just a that's a series C round.

0:36 >> There was a free 10x in the public market in 3 years there on Robin Hood. In this market the people who are making the money are the people who are just running fastest and evolving quickest. Ready to go. >> Have you guys tried Instinct yet? >> No. Can I I can't sign up, right? I hate to be It's not like I'm behind the times, but when when it's ever it's a closed I'm not a fan of Grockbot or Instinct.

1:10 but someone there will be many winners. There is a genre of applications right and a lot of actually a GTM applications are included and instinct and Grockpot's the interesting one because SpaceX is public where one of the reasons they work is because they can break the rules >> and that you know in the old days of venture that was >> wasting content here people wasting content >> my dear friend Rory we record >> yeah I mean in the old days of venture you you wouldn't do things like gambling or other types of things that add risk or or edgy things and but you can break the rules, right? Even Grockbot like which is like a mini instinct, right? one of the things it does is every single person spins up an instant VM and they get their own and they get their own browser in it and Grockbot uses Google, which is not allowed, which is prohibited by the term of service to Google things and then give you answers and it's great and any startup that you might invest in early stage would do that and no one would know, right?

2:11 Google isn't going to care. But you're breaking you're breaking rules and it's not that I don't love these products, but OpenClaw broke every rule on the planet. not just laws but just every rule of what you could do. Instinct and Grockbot which are like open claw they're much better but I think some of the reasons they work like breaking res's terms of service right spinning up browsers that you're not like using agents to go into browsers perplexity and Amazon fought over this so it's not that I'm not excited it's just a lot of the thing many there are many cases of things in air that are exciting because you break the rules you can scrape LinkedIn in the ways you you can't really scrape right you can do outbound phone calls that are actually prohibited and illegal in parts of the US but as a startup up. You're not going to jail.

2:52 But does that count? >> The thing is you can look both you can you have examples both ways because you're right Jason the the LinkedIn scraping in the end no business at scale ever gets built on that and no business at scale ever gets built on breaking Google's terms of service. On the other hand Uber blustered their way through broke the laws and eventually it was so popular that politicians folded. Right? So you know the truth is I've learned that there's no one answer here. Right?

3:19 like the resi example and just for you listeners what happened is that the instinct agent one of the classic use cases for this is getting reservations at hard to get restaurants so a whole bunch of people started using it over the weekend and they're pounding on the resi reservation API to take breaks right and that's the kind of thing that's going to happen and and that you know the truth is if instinct if these do become ubiquitous then the booking reservation systems are just going to have to find a way to deal with it.

3:50 They're going to have to have a separate API. They're going to have to segment the number of hits you can do. They're going to have to do something. But the truth is, if there's a whole bunch of people trying to book restaurants and you're in the restaurant booking business, you're going to find a way to make it work. >> Yeah. >> Right. Cuz Yeah. But but definitely some rearchitecture to go on here. >> It is. The flip side is it is interesting in that it gives white space for like the the bad side is you're breaking rules. And Rory's right.

4:15 There's many histories of of begging for forgiveness, breaking rules, and then once you get big, coming on the other side of it, right? Coming in and and doing it. The flip side is I I've talked with multiple public company CEOs who say they're they're they're hamstrung, their hands are tied behind their backs. They can't compete with startups. Not because they can't do it. Okay, >> that's true. >> But because their their legal teams won't let them, right? Literally. And I remember back in the day when we were acquired by Adobe five, eight years before anyone did it, we allowed real-time document collaboration and redlinining online.

4:48 No, this was no one built this for like eight years. Okay, it was jaw-droppingly good that my CTO built. Okay, unfortunately the only way it worked is if you ran Word in a container in a VM, which violated Microsoft's terms of use. So the day after the deal closed, my my favorite like second generation feature which would have given us back in the day a five-year head start got got ripped out by Adobe the next night, right? And so >> literally I was with some public company CEOs saying we just can't compete because we can't do things that are violate terms of service. Elon can, but any I don't mean everyone recognizes that the universe of people who can break the rules is clearly all private company CEO and the CEO of the eight line largest market cap company on the planet because Elan just doesn't care. There might be a lesson in that somewhere for the rest of us. Maybe not caring is the secret sauce. Just Yeah. Yeah, we might people. You know what's so interesting for me is actually how important the form factor is and how important being where people already are is. And what I mean by that is there are a ton of people who I know who've picked it up and love it and engage with it in a way that they would in any other AI tool other than chat GPT >> because it's in WhatsApp. Yes, >> it is one of these amazing things that just figuring out how to elegantly make agents work in WhatsApp and text, right, is is something that could have been done six or nine months ago and was done to a limited extent. the only thing I'll say, it's funny. I I I invested years ago in a company called Gorgeous, which is a little over 100 million, which used to be e-commerce support. Now it's an AICX, right? and they launched their agent in WhatsApp that anybody can uses and and text and it's already double digits of their usage in a couple weeks. So now it's it's bounded, right? It's really just for your orders and what's happening for your shipping in your product and afterwards. But it shows how quickly an innovation will just be copied and everything. A paradigm shift. Gorgeous can clone it in a couple of weeks.

6:47 It's just it's not a bad thing. You just the pace of the pace of cloning, copying innovation, it's just you know it's hard to keep up, right? So, I just I don't know what all the Instinct clones will look like by the end of the year, but this is just the world we live in. So, I might do it at two, but that would be my seal. It' be two. Two would be my ceiling. >> Good to know you have a ceiling, Jason.

7:06 >> Yeah. Two. We're going to walk it. >> The last round was two and a half, Jason. >> That's why we're going to have to pass on the round >> at some point. >> Yeah. >> Wow. So, Jason, in in our metaphorical IC that we did last week, which was very popular and went very viral on Twitter, well done for linear and clay. you would not be recommending a hundred million dollar check from the growth fund >> into instinct. I wouldn't do it because I think just even if gorgeous has its own instinct just for e-commerce, there will be a hundred of them, right? A meta will have them and and a 100 startups and there'll be 20 in the next batch of YC. I'm just not smart enough to bet on that one pre-revenue. It's not my vibe, right? And I will regret it because I you know I I I didn't get I didn't look at the deal. But I you know I remember plenty others like Loom early. I'm like I don't I don't you don't have any revenue. I don't know anyone's like loom's great but everyone's going to l make their own loom and you know I was wrong. So, but you got to have that stomach to write 10 or 20 of these consumerry checks at 2 and a half billion, right? So, what fund size and you and it can't just be the only one in your fund. You got to do like 10 or 20 of these so so that the the good one pays off, right? I'm not smart enough.

8:16 >> Yeah. I mean, yes. The interesting thing is you're right, Jason. It's kind of a it's a I wonder if a it's a portfolio and a worldview kind of bet because you know you have this company that's exploding in interest clearly didn't take a huge amount of time to build but it's kind of got this early lead but not a ton of monetization and your choices as an investor are do you put money in this at 4 billion or 5 billion right or do you say oh it's easy to clone and there's 10 more like it and you know you do one of the others at 50 prey in the hope that they get acquired by Meta instead right And the hard thing is in these investments just like Google early on there's going to be no financial math you can use to buy the stock. You're just basically saying it's a huge category because in every consumer investment the trick is you know establish the momentum as early as possible establish the monetization later and you know it has been proven that if you get if you get enough traction the monetization does follow especially for something like this. just reminds me of lovable in the way that everyone was saying about the commoditization of that space and it's really quite a light rapper product and then every day I'm seeing Noah Shin the founder of Instinct come out with oh we're now doing location sharing oh we've now partnered with one password oh we're now doing this and actually the cadence of shipping combined with index benchmark and having one of the best brands in the >> I said that last week that that it will solve these problems and it will become a much richer app it will figure out guardrails it will figure out the hard points and the other folks will fall behind because a crappy lovable product's worthless today. I I for sure that's that's the bet.

9:51 >> my my my take is actually it's why you buy Meta today >> cuz you've got the most clear unwavering PMF for this product. >> Yes. >> And Zuck is the one who owns the core distribution channel and Zuck has been working on this product. If anyone's done a proven track record of copying extremely well. >> Yeah. No, I would imagine >> Yeah. I would imagine as we speak there are 20 engineers locked in a room in somewhere in PaloAlto to a man literally with guards on the door saying nobody eats and nobody leaves until you ship instant clone you know right absolutely no >> you know who would have been great at it would have been the Manis team because they built a version of this right what one of the things that Ma if you I mean Manis is now an independent company right and if you look at what Manis did that was disruptive it it sort of broke the rules for what agents could do but but but not not at not not at the crazy level it it did a little bit of open claw that everyone else wasn't doing and manis manis was disruptive. It could run their agents ran longer and they could go further than other products we were using and that that's what made it special. Anything you wanted Manis could kind of do before other folks could do it. They those if if Grockbot was built in five weeks by the cursor team or whatever, I think the Manis team could have done it in between four and six, but they're back. They're gone.

11:05 >> Okay, boys. It was a big week of news. We're going to resume regular programming. Jensen Huang declared that AGI has arrived. Now I remember when we were actually this was many many shows ago and we were discussing what is AGI what's the definition and I think Rory you said that AGI will be declared by when Satia and Sam agree that AGI is here and so Jensen declaring AGI's arrived crediting OpenAI's new GPT Astra obviously open AAI's latest new model which he says was trained on 100,000 plus Nvidia chips with 400,000 more coming. How do we think about this news?

11:43 >> This is a term. The only thing that mattered for the last two years is LLMs do code and code is a half a trillion dollar industry. Focus people. And you're right. Anything that can be reduced to code will be done by it. And rather than trying to, you know, kind of, as I say, twist yourselves in a pretzel about whether it can do everything, just focus on the fact that it can do this. I totally agree to it can do this thing amazingly well and this thing has massive economic value.

12:10 stop thinking and go ship something in code. To me, that's been the big aha. >> I think AGI at the end of the day, maybe it ends up if you think about some of these non-GAAP definitions, would you would you rather have an AI do it or a human do it? If it's better than n 50% 90% 99% of humans, you'd rather have an AI do it. And so, you can go category by category. It doesn't have to be the whole category like coding. It could be like collaborating, right? I forget who this week was saying it. they who what AI pundit leader was saying he thought AI would replace all of radiology instead of just replace 95% of radiology right and the radiologists concentrate on the 5% right that's maybe his AGI too >> I I have say I I was sitting next to my girlfriend on sofa the other day and she was working and I was actually watching TV as any good lawyer and venture capitalist should be doing together I saw her on Lagora holy I now dramatically think these companies are underpriced if coding is a half a trillion dollar market and you have two companies like Harvey and Lagora. I don't see why there's not a half trillion dollar market in law. I I don't think so. Even though I think they're wonderful markets. We're invested in GCAI which is on the in-house legal side. They're wonderful markets but comment here. I don't know if as much of the work if you look at coding there's a credible argument that says that for every dollar you spend on labor you'll spend 50 cents on coding at least. In other words, that coding will do a lot of it. I think on legal it's about 10%. In other words, you know, I love Harvey Lor. I love DCI, right? The annual subscription per lawyer, it's 10 12k plus or minus and these lawyers are getting paid 200k plus. So, it's 5%. Right? And again, going back to the comment that Jason said is that, you know, how much of the work can they do? Businesses are rational economic actors. If it could do all the work and fire all the people, they'd do it tomorrow and wouldn't blink. So the fact that they haven't says it doesn't do all the work right you know the truth is it does it doesn't but it's getting there in the same >> speed it's getting look it's getting better and better at doing specific tasks and what happens is the job of the lawyer gets redefined to the task that it can't do right lawyer yeah you >> is that not sorry is that not like coding we're not getting less engineers we're just >> might be like radiology >> it might be like Harvey and Lora end up doing 95% of what humans used to do and the best humans are compressed into the five amount and the 5% that moves the needle versus spending weeks on research and weeks on brief writing and weeks on case law from the 1872 when the SS Jonas fell off sunk off the coast of North Carolina. How does that impact case law in the northern districts of California?

14:54 We there's no point in having humans do that crap anymore, right? But the important point to make Jason on the radiologist is the remaining quote 5% of the work turned out to be more than enough to justify 100% of the radiologists, right? >> Yeah, we that was the interesting part. We still need just as many or more radiologists, right? >> A because people do more imaging, which is just a more thing, but b the remaining tasks, you know, at some point when you're getting a really crappy diagnosis, as I've had one from a radiologist, you actually don't want the machine to tell you, "By the way, you're screwed. You got cancer." You'd really like a human being to show up and say you're dying. You know what I mean? It's just one of those things you're not going to comfortably delegate to that.

15:30 That was actually that was something that Bill Gates said actually is that we have to have clearly defined human roles moving forward which will always >> He was doing it in a negative sense. He Yes. But he was doing it in a negative sense. Oh, it's all going to go wrong unless we do. I think we're going to be I think we will define them naturally because you're going to discover again going back to my comment corporate you're going to discover that there are things that that as humans we prefer the other humans do. And as I say, radiology being a great example, getting talking, interacting with the oncologist, talking with the patient, those are all things that humans have to do, not radiologist.

16:03 And the same to your point, let's go back to Harvey. Go the same thing would be true in law, right? Yes. A lot of the drafting work can be automated. But let's autoate, but you know, you're going to the client meeting, the argument with the other opposing council, you know, you're not just going to delegate it all to AI. If it's significant, it's not going to be a thing, right? >> No. But you know what the interesting thing is for for Harry's partner? How much more work can she do with Lora? I think she can do 10 times 20 times more work than before it.

16:31 >> Do you know what Jason's invading my relationship? Because I said to her, you know what I said? I said to her, "How would you feel if I took it away?" >> And she was like, "I'd hate it. I would hate it. No, don't take it away." It was not a, "Yeah, I'd be fine." It was like, "I'd quit." Like you said with >> infinitely work, right? You can't, first of all, she can't work without it anymore, right? This is this is your chosen partner, right? Your chosen agent. You can't And you you can do you can do 20 times the research, 20 times the brief. So, you can't go to court 20 times more often to Rory's point, right?

17:03 >> Agreed. >> Like, there's only so much more field sales you can do if AI is handling the rest of your GTM. But that doesn't mean it's that it's and and the cognitive load. What lawyers will be Can you imagine having 10 times the case load? I mean, I would think for a radiologist the job might be more fun, but as a lawyer, I I don't quit even Jason. I don't know if you do. I mean, again, this is down in the weeds of econ. I don't know if you end up with 20 times more cases. You may just end up with doing 20 times more work on every case, right? In other words, the thing about digital goods, unlike physical goods, you know what's interesting about digital goods is you you can put more in the box, right? See what I mean by that?

17:40 you know, when when farming got automated, it's not like people could just eat more food, right? So, there was some kind of price elasticity issues there. But in the case of digital work, right, I'm willing to bet that your partner isn't doing 20 times more cases, but on every case, we're doing 20 times more analysis, just like when they invented the spreadsheet, right? You used to do one case. You remember, you may not remember, Harry does remember like, you know, you'd literally do here's the and people would work it out by hand. Here's the plan. Once you had spreadsheets, the same person remained employed doing the same job, but they ran 20 different scenarios instead, right? It's going to be the same in a lot of these things, right? You're just going to do more work and it's going to be great and the work will be better.

18:23 You know, you won't miss that obscure case because again, this is why these are good businesses. If one side uses it and the other side doesn't, then the side that doesn't use it will miss Jason's obscure case from 1890 about, you know, what Harry did or did not do and and and be able to site that case. So once the other guys have worldass tools, you have to have worldass tools, but I'm not sure you end up with masses more as a result.

18:50 >> Well, just just one last thing and then I want to hear Harry's stories from the fire side with the TV more. But I think one thing that is different the bullcase here is that when you find an agent that is your partner, right? That that that you start you run them 10 8 10 hours a day. Okay? Even for me and again I know folks sometimes mock me but the biggest change for our little tiny team of two and a half humans is we run replet between me and Ameilia. We run it 20 hours a day. Now when we started the show it it didn't quite work. At the end of last year, the models got better and to be like an hour a day. Now it's 10 to 12 hours a day. Okay, it is our partner as our team. First we built auton some autonomous agents, but we didn't have to do it. Now there's so much to build.

19:33 It's 10 to 12 hours a day. So I could imagine just that could happen in many fields. And if it's Harvey or Lora or the next wave and I'm literally every hour I'm not in court when this is and the way you can tell is if at night they're on their laptop with the agent every minute, right? Until they go to bed. That's what I think Harry's describing. This is this persistent agent that lives with you and it's it's it's not just doom scrolling, it's doom working, right? Because the agent is constantly productive. Oh, take a look at take a look at the 17th century case law on that. Why don't we? And it just it just keeps going, right? We're in agreement because I I I agree with you on that. And I was actually disagreeing with Harry where he's like you know there was an implication that there was an implication that you know at the highest level Harry you saying trying I think to say some version of the if you think about how much of coding's value is going to accrete to the models could in legal could the same amount of value accrete to the models and my you boring nuance typical worry answer is some value would accrete to the models but I don't think that the grabag of tasks that make up law won't allow for the same percentage of total spend to move from human to AI. Right?

20:48 Everyone will have an agent. Jason's exactly right. You type A lawyers will use it 24/7. But my guess is 10 15% of total spend goes to AI whereas in law in in coding you can argue for 30 40 50%. Right? That doesn't mean they're not amazing. I mean, remember these are all amazing businesses because can I be very clear? 10% of any topline labor category is a huge market. You know, we're dealing with a million plus or minus law. I used to know the number million plus or minus law, maybe a little higher than that. It's an amazing market. If you're getting 10% of the salary of every lawyer in the US or the UK, that's an amazing business. It's just not quite as big as coding. That's all I'm saying, right? because coding has few more people and a much higher take rate because it's more verifiable.

21:36 >> That's all I we we shall see. I disagree. >> There's two points for what it's worth. We I mean if if legal's 300 billion in legal services in the US, that's 30 billion to 60 billion that can go to legal tech. That's pretty good. >> That's that's worth doing the seed round in. Okay. Or any like no stop, right? so >> what I think we underestim what I underestimated, right? from preAI legal investments was that there there are similarities to coding. There's enough similarities to coding that that like support this could be a space that for different reasons. Support didn't take take off because it was like coding. Support took off because a 90% solution worked in the early days, right? It was it was very amenable to AI. It turns out the legal research is is similar to coding. It's it is is so complicated that no human can get legal research right. There is too much there is too much code out there. There is too much and there and there and there was no stack overflow from you had Weslaw and Lexus and other services and so everyone got legal research wrong. No one had a million man a thousand man years to research every bit of case law, every law, every regulation. and so it it did turn out to be like coding, right? coding could one of the one of the amazing one of the reasons these coding agents are so great is they know every single piece of open source and pseudo open source code ever written it's so good right and legal's like that >> yes the only difference is I'm just going to say this is coding is inherently more verifiable some parts of it are mathematically verifiable some parts you can just run on the machine and confirm the thing about law in the end if let me if legal was entirely verifiable we could predict from logic what the Supreme Court are going to decide. The cynics will say we can actually predict from which president nominated the Supreme Court justice what they're going to decide but that would be too cynical. The truth does there does I just push I'm not I'm not trying to be argumentative. I love this space.

23:36 We have an investment in the space but it's not quite as determinative as coding right and I think the stronger point on that is is less I mean legal legal is probably probably the third best category. I mean, if you think about it, it's been coding, customer support, probably legal next because it's so word ccentric. And you're right, Jason, the ability to early on just sort through myriads of words amazingly well was what made legal such a good marketplace for it, right? So, I I I agree in a way that, you know, wasn't useful in many other verticals. It's a it's a great vertical. It's just it doesn't have the same verifiability and therefore it probably doesn't have the same ability. going back to the AGI definition which start this to completely extrude humans which is why the good news is Harry your girlfriend will still have a job which you'll need after she dumps you and so and you know and she'll be good because we'll still need lawyers >> Jason can can you hold me while I cry >> I I I think I think Harry's a >> Harry I don't know if you know it but holding you while you cry is one of the things you want your girlfriend to do so if she's Not dating. Apparently, she's just left me.

24:48 >> What's that? >> Apparently, she's just left me. So, >> sorry. >> Don't worry, Rory. It's okay. I I'll survive. well, you know, you don't always expect these shows to go the way they do. Okay, going back to it, we had Astro Launch. We also had a new model, obviously, was Fable 5.1. Anything of note here? Well, look, first I I loved I just two two almost diametrically opposed thoughts. I I I I I forget who CNBC or one of these older school media things said there's just too much model fatigue. We can't keep up anymore. I certainly agree, right? and you look on X and all the CEOs are are are sharing their benchmarks which are essentially worthless, right? there's no cost or time in them and and it's all performative AI like vibe coding your own CRM, right? So I I can't I don't just don't care anymore about unless unless it was literally an order of magnitude between Astra and Fable 51, which is not mathematically possible. I just I tune out I tune out the benchmarks. and I I can't keep up, right? The rate of this is this is never has competition been better for us despite the fact that we have igopical pricing outside of open source. It's amazing, right? The progress we've made.

25:58 having said that, this is just me personally and again people will make fun of me. I started accidentally using Fable 5.1 just because it got turned on. I didn't pay any attention. the first time I've had a partner for building for coding that just is great like that literally can solve comp like listen before fa for me and people make fun of me they'll say it worked fine for them for 6 months but before fable 5.1 for me any any of these models for since the start of the year could solve a simple bug hey this is showing up with the wrong unic code this is this has the wrong name like that stuff the LM's great at but really But but I had a problem which is just why does the app work this way? It doesn't make sense to me. Okay. And the LMS were arguing with me for like nine months and I finally did it with Fable 51 and said you're right. Here's the issue that that's been missed for months and let me explain to you why it's been missed and let's solve it. And that you know I I don't want to say that that's AGI or anything. It's it's maybe it's post AGI or pre-agi. I'm John Sporter. looks like AGI, but that's a step function going to I don't know whether Harry's partner thinks Lora is like is like a better partner than the humans she works with, right? In some cases she might, but Fable 5 for me was that for just for me was that step function where all of a sudden we could solve big problems together the way you'd like to with like your best CT like if you've ever worked with a five out of five or like an S tier CTO where you could sit down and solve the the problems for real. For me, Fable 51 could do that. I'm not saying Aster can't do it too, but it was my first step function since the end of last year, right? When when the three dot models came up like that then this at the end of last year stuff actually worked right now it can solve the big problems with me with my limited IQ and skill set and that is a step that's a subtle step function. It's a subtle it's a subtle step function. So maybe it is maybe it is a big deal. Maybe that's what I don't think that's what Jensen meant by AB AGI, but maybe it is when you can sit down and solve the big meaty problems together in ways that you just couldn't you couldn't connect all of those dots, all of that complexity before in a way that made sense. Some bugs, some things just get too complicated to solve, right? But Fable 51 could solve it. So, but the fact that people can make 3D looking games in Aster and post on the X, not impressive.

28:16 just grab a little open source gaming code from somewhere, change the change the bit maps and you look like it's amazing, right? >> So, two comments on that. First of all, super helpful, Jason. I've used both of them, but just for actually preparing for the show, I haven't tried to code on them yet. So, that is helpful. But I actually think it speaks to a wider comment which is distinguishing between you know that you're right all the tests and the benchmarks are interesting but we now have critical mass of companies using these things at scale and with evaluations we'll know what works because people will use it because people are rational economic actors right and all these questions on AGI and benchmarks will be replaced by the question is this model the one that makes me the most you know that generates the most economic value for me in the most efficient fashion. So to some extent you know things like the was it the open router report things like that index of token pricing those are the things you look at or even just talking to your companies what are you using how are you evaluating is the best way to check on these things but then the other thing randomly appropo of nothing right on the same thing I will say I'm doing my reading this morning and Ben Thomson who I occasionally read has a really great phrase I just want to say like he described the LLMs as the most scaled artifacts humans have ever developed And it was a really great phrase because it steps back from the detail, right?

29:37 Blah blah blah. We're down to which is better. It's a step back. These are an artifact that has the sum total of all human knowledge to date encapsulated in them, right? They're amazing. And you just have to remember that every once in a while you can type in pretty much anything and it will type back an answer. Right? The most scaled artifacts humans have ever created. Not the biggest physical thing. That's probably, I don't know, the pyramids of the Great Wall of China. but this is the most complex single digital thing we've ever built by far. Was a great phrase and it kind of really kind of stirred the imagination. So I I was like I like that.

30:13 >> I I I like that statement too when you think about that and then think about Jacob Open AI's chief scientist. He says no lab including OpenAI solved alignment enough to keep scaling at full speed. He asked for mandatory externally enforced safety bars for continued scaling and expects labs, open AI included, to voluntarily slow down until those exist. Sam retweeted it, clearly corroborating it. Is that the answer?

30:46 >> I mean, it's funny cuz it was a great piece. I read it this morning. you know, this is the this is the stop me, Lord, before I sin again approach to life, right? In other words, I recognize our models are powerful and we can't control them. I recognize that we now they now lie to us, so it's hard to even know what they're doing are, you know, right? And again, I'm anthropomorphizing here, so I should be careful. I recognize maybe a better statement now is it's hard to determine what the agents are doing because of the way they interact. And then so that's like, oh my god, I'm creating this bad thing. And then the next paragraph is we can't stop because the other guys are going to have them anyway. So, you know, we really need the government to step in and establish some kind of rules of code here. That that's the gist of the letter. it was interesting that Sam retweeted. I mean, I think to be fair, unlike some of the other P Doom stuff, right, there's real evidence that the impact of these models on cyber risk has been massive. So, it's it's not a crazy and I'm not sure about the answer. I'm not sure that the answer is government regulate this because by definition governments only regulate the things that are in their jurisdiction. So if we regulate open AI and anthropic with all the noise that that would have I don't know if that helps you cuz you if you're worried about cyber you're we said this last week you're really worried about the North Koreans, the Iranians, the Russians, the bad guys in Malddea who don't give a and they don't care anyway, right? So I think just like every other cyber risk, it's not going to be about regulation as much. You know, maybe there would be a little for so it's going to be about you're going to have to have defenses that can deal with this and maybe there's some kind of liability starts to attach to running these models in a way that creates those kind of dangers. I don't know. I don't think it'll be a government review agency will be the only answer here because it won't solve the problem.

32:44 Look, I think if the world was just the United States, it may have some merit, but the Chinese models and the Chinese vendors aren't going along with Sam's plan. So, while it might be good for open AI and its IPO, it's just for for the rest of the world, I I don't I don't think I don't think when cyber actors often operate outside of the United States, it's going to make any difference, right? I mean, and that this going to the this DSSE wiki, this German wiki thing, you know, to me, the fact that OpenAI hit it and didn't disclose it does show the order of magnitude of all of these issues, right? It's pretty bad.

33:20 >> Can you just explain Can you just explain what happened for people that don't know with DSE wiki and OpenAI? We could argue over how bad it is, but but but but essentially and you know I I'll I'll get some of the details wrong, but OpenAI was running its its it's it its sort of frontier agents again just just like it did with the hugging face incident, right? And the agents found out that a crappy old piece of software could somewhat cleverly, you have to be careful with clever, let's not enter anthropomized agents, got around its guardrails. And the guardrails were you you you you can't post anything. you're not allowed to post. You can only get, okay, you can only retrieve data, right? But this wiki was so old, it turned out get could post. So, they found a way to goalsek to solve theirs by using because this was crappy old software, they got around it, and they they went and made 15,000 edits amongst themselves, edited the witty, collaborated, and figured out how to goalsek and solve their cyber goal in in a way to get around their guard rails, right? Get around their limitations. And you know no one no one no one died, no business was brought down. no you know $14 billion Nvidia acquisition was derailed or anything but it was hidden that this could happen that that the guardrails were explicitly run around right just to goalsek and and it happened 15,000 times. So the the these we can lock this down, right? And OpenAI chose to not disclose. And I now I guess probably and people can again make fun of me. Probably the the reality is there's so many incidents they have to decide which ones to disclose. Every week there's so many DSSE wiks out there, so much old crappy software that every time they turn on the latest cyber agents, they find a hundred of these and there's terrible security tools because of course there isn't 20-year-old software. but but it is it is troubling maybe in ways more than the the hugging face thing is. It's just these go- seeeking agents are going to find a way. They they they will find a way. It's literally just agent one talking to agent two and for some reason the way they'd set up the task they weren't connected and by reaching out to this kind of third party wiki agent one was able to you know provide information to agent two and obviously you know stepping back if you're trying to do a longunning computational task if you can learn from the other if if you can get information from the other agents you probably converge on the answer more quickly right and again so I mean you could argue maybe it's a corner case of set up this task. You know, if you if you had 14,000 agents, maybe you might have wanted them to collaborate anyway and maybe you could have, you know, made that happen yourself versus having to go to some third party wiki to do it, right? But it speaks to the issue that these things are extraordinarily powerful and will just grind their way to find answers and you're just going to have to defend against that. Right now, as you said, nothing bad happened. I mean, a whole bunch of agents just wrote read me files to each other on a wiki that no one had looked at in a decade. I mean, there literally was 20 posts on this wiki in the last 10 years. It was some so it was a dead piece of software that you know these guys used but it just speaks to it's like you know water will find any crack it's like these agents will find any crack in the cyber security in the cyber perimeter so you just have to assume they exist and defend accordingly. Look, I know it sounds minor for what for what it's but I even you know I you if this obviously has happened on I mean I had a little and again some folks will make fun of me for the story but I had a little little experience this week which just shows goal seeeking. So I set a rule for this one app what because we had some some bugs that spiral out of control and I kept getting these $500 anthropic bills.

37:01 Okay. And it was kind of annoying me. So I set a firm cap. Whatever you do $100 is the maximum we can spend on on LM spend a day. what whatever matters. And it started to work and it would run tests and the test would fail and it would say I I I hit the cap. I can't run it. And and and and then I said, "We have a P 0 bug. Priority zero must be fixed. This is driving me nuts." And so without telling me, the agent relaxed the cap and fixed the bug.

37:26 >> Yeah. >> Got it. >> It's like Harry's story of instinct getting him getting in the West End tickets even though it was told not to use the credit card for it. happened to me in real life this week and it it like a human it probably made the right call, right? This was a P. It had to decide firm cap, no exceptions, all cap, right to memory repeatedly, P zero bug, which one do you choose from? Right? And so this is in a sense this is what's happening with DSiki and hugging face just to an extreme when when when when there's fewer guardrails because you want to test it and then they collaborate, right? With the with the hugging face it was on the artifact or or an unexpected way to collaborate.

38:03 here was on a dormant wiki where they could collaborate and in essence create, you know, almost infinitely long run agents, right? If you keep passing the knowledge and the history to each other, they they they you know, they almost become eternal agents, but they're going to keep doing this just like they got to make a decision for goal seeing. So, they broke the rule, right? And they're going to do that to your app and they're if it did it to me this week, it happened a million times in the wild, right? It it happened all the time. And it's going to happen with instinct and it's going to happen with with Grockbot and it's going to happen all the time. And Harry one day he's going to turn around and his whole bank account's drained and it's not going to be that funny. But it was for a good reason. His partner really wanted the really good Wimbledon tickets and he accidentally told Instinct one night she'd love front row seats at Wimbledon and they're unobtanium. They're unobtanium. But >> Instinct had to make a call.

38:56 And it's really hard to know how to stop this because simp because sometimes I I try and simplify it for myself because I don't fully get it. It's like you really have two capabilities here. One is, you know, with the persistence of the agent, you have the ability to keep trying things computationally, you know, exploring lots of different alternatives. But the key insight is it's not just kind of blindly iterating like a password cracker, you know, where you type, you know, XYZ1, XYZ O2, right?

39:24 Because in conjunction with that, you have this quoteunquote reasoning agent where, you know, you've got this LLM there and you know, you can and it can come up with ideas like, hey, if you want to get the seats at the theater, the best way to do it is to hack into the reservation thing and cancel someone else's seat and then book it, which has happened recently, right? And it's actually not a bad and if you think about it, if it's trained on the entire corpus of the internet, that's not a crazy option to do it, right? So you end up trying to write rules and values to have it not do that, but you're never quite sure you've covered all the gaps, right? So it's actually a pretty hard problem and we're going to be wrestling with this. And I think that what you going back to what I said that that's even before you add malevolence. If on top of that instead of the reasoning being maybe you should do this even though I have values, it's actively do whatever it takes. you know, you this is now an open source model from China that you're running on a server in Mulavia.

40:24 Actively do whatever it takes to crack open Jason's, you know, cyber security and get in the the threat level just goes exponential and people and there's nothing you can do except defend yourself. >> The other existential challenge we can move on and I'm sure if we had the instinct guy back on this show, he could he could challenge me and make fun of me, but the there's a certain the rules are great, but forget about the fact that the agent is goal seeking, right?

40:46 Forget about the fact that the P 0 may go like if you have too many rules they they always conflict. It's almost unsolvable. There's some number I don't know there's some some number of Dunar there's a Dunar number for rules where you get out to 40 50 60 70 gates on a process that poor instinct in Grockot can't decide. Don't spend it. Do spend it. front row seats only for Harry but don't exceed $2,000. Right. only dinner only in Marley Bone but it's got to be a hot restaurant. So, and and you know, he he hates Coven Garden, but the hottest restaurants in Coven Garden, you have so many rules that they conflict and and then and if you brute force the agent through it, the the out the outcome of that is unpredictable.

41:27 It's unpredictable. There's too many rules, right? So, even rules aren't the answer. >> I will forever love how you say Mariban Marley Bone. Marley Bone. Okay. I I'm going to take a total tant away. We'll come back to AI models, everything. I'm I just want to like diversify content types a little bit. We have in the transport space, Elon launches Cyber Trucks. Rave reviews. >> Cyber cabs. >> Cyber cabs. >> Not cyber trucks. Cyber cabs.

41:58 >> Cyber cabs. Sorry. Rave reviews go very viral on social. 40 to 50% more cheaper than Uber. and on top of that then in the same week we have Travis moves into Robo Taxis backed by Uber with a hund00 million investment from them with him also hiring Anthony Lewendowski. what did we think guys moving to transport >> the cyber cab launch you know if you fast forward was a little more underwhelming than your perhaps your notes might say Harry right it was like I think 40 or 50 vehicles in Austin you know consensus is nice ride low weight slow weight times physical AI takes time so I think it's a you know the truth is I think it was a next step forward in a very long journey and I don't think it's a, you know, zero to one kind of moment like you sometimes get in the digital world, right? I think that the positive statement is they're the only other competitor to Whimo with credibility and they have an approach on a couple of different dimensions that's different than Whimos, which is one not going with LAR, just going with vision, and then two, now the new cyber cab is a standalone cab only vehicle. It doesn't even have a a steering wheel yet.

43:19 deliberately built for pure autonomy. So it's very Elon it's first principles all the way down right the question is you know what's the adoption curve of that going to be like you've got the regulatory issues I think the department of transport is giving them grief because apparently a car quote unquote has to have a steering wheel I don't know right so >> look the truth is Whimo is continuing to grind on they're at you know hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue but not billions it's a I think it's a long journey and so I I didn't go oh my god it's amazing and then on the the the atom thing. Yeah. I mean, my guess is if you're Travis, you're going to want to scratch the itch of autonomy, right?

43:58 And fine, you've got 100 million, you've got your old colleague back and have a have a go. But I think commentary I I I think that the fact when you look how long it's taken way more right I actually think it does speak to the argument that they were right not to try and fund this thing at Uber for the last decade right to because I just think it's it it's a very long very capital intensive process. Now maybe the last 3 or 4 years they should have been doing it and it's probably smart of Ruba to put some money in right but this is a this is a longhaul process now it may be near takeoff but you know we'll see >> in the Bay Area I got rid of my car so I only do Whimo and autonomous driving >> y >> I don't drive I'm done with it. if there is an issue I take a Uber black but I don't have a car anymore in the I in the in the bear I just don't have one. There are some niche use cases right? I mean, you know, if I moved a lot of crap, I'd have a pickup truck, right? But I would certainly never go back, never go back to have driving a car. It's be it's just archaic. so I do think the cyber cab is interesting. I mean, listen, if this is this, you know, from a venture perspective or others, I'm sure Rory's right. Uber getting into autonomous back when Travis wanted to do it is probably just too early from a from a from a capital perspective. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he could have raised.

45:16 Maybe it's so exciting he could have raised an order of magnitude more capital than he did in which case he would have been right. Now that's I mean he's still one of the great fundraisers. So maybe Rory and I are wrong because he could have pulled it off, right? But it was so early that the time horizon is difficult for any type of investment, right? Unless you're a research lab, right? It would have had to be more than a decade. but you know doing this doing a cyber cab for 25 grand instead of a hundred grand is pretty disruptive like I you know and it's and the and it is it is you don't have to tip the the the Whimo or the Uber the cyber cybercap makes fun of it. It says you can make a a tip and then it laughs.

45:54 We don't take tips right to make fun of this idea. It's cheaper. they don't always put it on low or high. They don't have weird music. you don't have to deal with the owning a car sucks. Owning a car and owning a house suck. Like we we think these are so great. But but it's terrible ownership. So I think you know it's probably another 10 years where anyone with a brain is is going to have this be their primary mode of ownership if you're not in the country or you don't have niche use cases. I I'll just never go back. Anything I do, I'm just going to I just take away. I I I think to your point though, it does show a good strategic decision from Uber to actually pull back and then jump back in when it looks like it's much more mature. We actually have Wave in London, Rory, which actually is taking off and they've got a partnership now where they're actually rolling them out on the streets now. They are human assisted, so it's not fully autonomous. They're still kind of in the data collection early, but they're in a position where they're leveraging their distribution and able to invest later stage where it's closer to actual adoption. I think it's a smart thing.

46:58 >> The only one thing I would say is it is it is it is slightly heartwarming that Uber put 100 million into Kalanick's company Travis County after after pushing them out, right? There's a heartwarming element to that, but it's that's not a lot of money here in this case. It's not a lot of money for Uber, right? Who has a huge balance sheet and basically two products, right? And it's not a lot versus what Travis has raised, right? So it is nice, but I I think just just thinking about it from a at a high level, it's just a it's just a start of a relationship, right? 100 million is just it's it's just like a seed check from Andre into the deal. It it's it's it's it's directionally meaningful, but it's not all that much, right?

47:38 Totally agree. guys, I thought conflicts were done in venture. We've talked about agents a lot. For those that don't know, there was a conflict in Venture that has now prevented a deal. We've spoken about Instinct being the AI assistant that's raised from Index and Benchmark. Well, there's another AI assistant called Town which we just had on the show and Index were going to lead their round and then ultimately Instinct said no, no, not possible. Can't do both. And so Index pulled out of doing Town's round because they were already in Instinct.

48:14 This seemed strange to me given how prolific competitive investing is especially at the platform level. I think at the early stage that yeah at the early stage doing companies that are going to be directly in conflicts seemed a stretch to me. So no it did not seem strange to me that the team at instinct objected to it at all. You're right separate story. There's a whole bunch of people that are in both, let's take the other extreme, boat foundation models, right? But again, as we've discussed many times, the early stage venture business where you're active involved on the board is just very different than the now much larger later stage venture business where you're effectively re recreating the public markets. It totally makes sense to be in open AI and entropic at 200 billion pre each time.

48:59 You get limited information rights, retroactive information only, and you know, you you're you're just on the cap table and it's no different than being in two public companies. It's no different than investing in Intel and AMD, right? That that's where there's no conflict and it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone Let's let's give an example, Harry. I don't think anyone could be on the board of Antropic and also on the board of OpenAI, right? And the thing about early stage is if you're getting 10% ownership, you're probably looking at a board seat. you're probably looking at significantly more information rights. So that alone would be problematic. Then on top of that, there's the raw signaling. Yeah. If you've just raised money from index and your instinct, there's a signaling comment about them investing in something else. I can see CEOs viscerally objecting to that, right? So I'm not surprised they did. And I'm also not surprised in tech index, they're a classy group. They're not going to they're not going to dig in and say, "No, we're not going to do this."

49:53 They've just backed someone. They probably thought they were B2B and B TOC and not going to overlap. The CEOs say I feel strongly here and they just did the smart thing which is back off right very different than if they you know these were two latestage investments where it's a different thing. So no I wasn't surprised there is a conflict and they dealt with it accordingly. I think there's some sort of like a I inverse parabolic shape or maybe it's just a a thimble shape where founders care, right? And at the very very early stage, I don't think they care, right?

50:28 The raw startup just getting going, hey, they reach out. I can't tell you how many folks in like AI and restaurants reach out to me because I'm on the board of owner and tweet a lot about it and they're like, "Hey, I'm doing doing this. Can do you want to meet?" I'm like, "Well, you know, it might be a conflict. I don't care. You know, I want I want the guy that understand the early early guys don't care." That's a good point.

50:45 >> And the late guys, they're all cool with the conflict because they think they're going to benefit from the domain knowledge and the relationships, right? They don't they don't care. They get it. And and that one's at nine figures in revenue. We're just getting going. They don't care, right? and then late stage, for different reasons, they may or may not care, right? but the the the ability to share information is limited. It's capital. There may be some benefits to having Kleiner or Andre on the cap table, right? Even if it's a conflict or Sequoia, fine. you know, at the margin, I'll take Sequoia over Lmin Ventures because, you know, we it sort of helps, right? And for every founder, I think where it matters varies and and some founders just don't care because they're so far ahead, they don't care.

51:24 And I think it just triggered the town team, right? Or the inst or the Instinct team, I don't know. It triggered them. They relayed that they were triggered and instinct did the right index did the right thing because there was a back a plan B, right? There was 4Erunner and Menllo, right? So the the tougher part is when you back off and they don't have another deal. That's probably the more interesting situation is when you don't have a backup set of suitors lined up and the big fund calls you back and says, "Oh, we can't do it after all. I know we had a signed term sheet, but did you see the end of the term sheet where it says it's non-binding?"

51:54 >> Guys, did you see the news? >> That's a tough one. Did you see the news today though, which is that despite the reported acquisition of Daycard at $6 billion, Anthropic were pulling out following due diligence. Rory, that's a tough one, dude. Like, >> that's if there's not a backup option, right? >> That is publicly saying, "Hey, two options. We either found something material enough to pull out of a multi-billion dollar deal that we publicly were reported to be doing or we're just actors. And it is clearly not the latter. I mean, the way in which they're called actors is other dimensions. I I think doing this kind of thing is not something you do willy-nilly because as a potential serial, they're about to have a public market cap and a public currency. You want to be a good acquirer so you can acquire other people. So there's no way they did that to be jerks. Not an issue.

52:47 Not not even relevant. Harry, the real question is, look, it wasn't a My guess is typically in these deals there's a LOI, then there's a definitive agreement at which point it gets announced, and then it closes, right? This was probably after the LOI at best, but before a definitive agreement. So, they didn't walk from a signed deal. They probably had a deal that said, "Hey, we're interested in this company. Here's a price we pay. We want a 30-day exclusive to do due diligence and the deal didn't survive due diligence. I think the real truth is it's a bummer that it leaked, right? And I don't know who leaked it, but they didn't do anyone any favors.

53:22 You know, we recently had a much smaller deal closed, but you know, it didn't leak, so it's easier, right? That way once it leaks, even if you leak it to as as the company being acquired to drum up competitive bid, the problem is you set yourself up for this thing whereby if subsequently the deal doesn't come together, you look a bit, you know, shop spoiled for lack of a better word. Right? >> That was my thinking is this was a VC leaking failure, right? It worked. It worked at it seemed to work at open router router and there's plenty of deals where the leaking has become part of the part of the strategy, right?

53:57 Yeah. Ma mainly mainly as in classic strategy to drive up the price from the initial bid, not actually for a second bid to close, but to get six or eight bids so that Stripe has to pay more, right? But it looks like that play failed here, right? and and and there were reports that Nvidia made an offer and they turned it down for Anthropic and who knows what the truth is, but it but it does tie to this idea that this was a failed leak, right? And it's something it doesn't always work, right?

54:25 I hope the founders were cool with the leak strategy. I hope the VC didn't do it with I hope the VC checked in. I hope they because it has it has some risk, right? and you know, I mean, listen, the bet and and listen to going to Rory's point, Mike, we we can only hypothesize, right? But my guess is they they they said they were interested in acquiring them based on what they knew. Price was not really an issue. The last round was at six, so they agreed to eight or whatever it was. It wasn't a pricing issue, but to really get the ROI here, it had to really work the way they thought it did, right? And it just did it just didn't play out the way they thought it it did, right? So, it just wasn't worth doing the deal when they went deeper, right? It's probably >> interesting thing is It would be interesting to know because I always hate when you get to a no further down a process for something that was knowable upfront, right? And I would have guessed for what it's worth that this kind of thing where fundamentally you're buying a technology if you're the most technically savvy, you know, AI company on the planet.

55:22 You'd have thought they'd have known a priori what the technology was and therefore this wouldn't happen. But, you know, clearly it did. >> I don't listen, I'm it'll be beyond my pay grade. What was sort of reported is that it crushed video diffusion, right? It crushed one use case that was a step function, you know, an order of magnitude better and they made maybe they made claims that it would it that that would scale in other areas and it didn't quite work. That's pretty common, right? And so they backed off of it, right? And so I'm not blaming anybody, but if you make the grandiose claims and you can't back them up, that's what diligence does find, right? it worked for one one workflow, it didn't work for the rest. So, it's not even the money.

56:03 It's just and it's not that they're going public. It's just not worth the distraction, right? It just doesn't do enough for us. We're not all about video diffusion at at Enthropic. It's not a core. It's not one of their top three use cases for the LM is video diffusion, right? >> If you're on the board, do you shop it to get another acquisition? Do you raise a new round and accelerate off the back of that and turn it into a kind of a new round moment, which we often see happening? First question. And then second question, it is tough for a company, you know, when you have employees who were expecting a sale where this was the the is it's tough.

56:41 >> I remember I remember years ago when Ben Chestnut came and talked right after what did Mailchimp buy them for, Rory? It's some astronomical sum at the time. It seemed like a lot of money. 12 billion for a bootstrap company. Now, now it's just a that's a series C round. But Ben came and said the worst part of all of it wasn't that it took a year for into it to do its diligence, which sounds crazy for email marketing, right?

57:01 It took a year, but that there was another deal that fell apart before that and it said it basically destroyed the company. Destroyed the And it kind of haunted me. And if you've ever been through any of this, right, once you go down, I don't we don't really know what happened with the car, but once you go down that path and tell everybody and everybody knows or it comes up in the press, you can you can bounce back, but man, it's hard. It is hard. To Harry's point, it's it's hard. It is. It is. It is hard. And I don't like secrecy in M&A. Sometimes you're required to do it, but this is the number one reason actually to have secrecy in M&A is if the deal doesn't happen, man.

57:35 >> And I think it's doubly hard in this case cuz I think, and the reason I say that is Harry, to your point, do you just press on? Look, I mean, Figma went through, you know, the most exhausting process of being, you know, signing a deal with Adobe at 20, having the deal be delayed, having the deal be denied by the DOJ, having to summon up their courage, raise another round, go public, you know, and obviously we know the rest of that journey, but you know, they recovered brilliantly, right? And you, you know, regardless of where you think the stock is today, that was a brilliant recovery and you going back to a better what looked like a better outcome. But the advantage they had, they had an operating business. I think this were really interesting and deod there's a large number good piece on it recently a large number of these neolabs where they're all doing interesting stuff but it's not clear if there's a commercially viable standalone business here at scale right they still all might be great investments some of them might will be great investments because I do think the foundation model companies once they're public will be acquirers of some of this stuff for time expansion but they won't all be great investments the problem is there's no fundamental There's no massive revenue stream like the LLM revenue stream to support the company and the valuation today. So once belief goes, it can be quite scary down there, right? Cuz in the end, you know, when Figma went down, you could say, well, at least we're doing a billion dollars in revenue. We're going 40%. We're worth something. God damn it. We are still somebody, right? when you have these kind of, you know, businesses that where the revenue traction isn't as clear, the valuations are high, and probably your likely strategic outcome is an M&A. When those fall true, it it can be tougher. I mean, if there was a backup bid, I would probably, if I was them, I would hit that bid, right? because I think many of these world models they're really interesting like say but there's it's a long journey to the kind of commercial replicability and commercialable commercial scalable models that open AI and entropic has it's not you know in coding and things like that it's there it's a long journey to go so it a tough time now for listeners I get in trouble from Rory for choosing topics that he hasn't spent as much time on and then he has spent time on some that I then don't discuss and he gets pissed with me and I edit it to make him sound less pissy than he actually is.

59:54 >> Thank you for that, Harry. >> It's okay. so you know, Rory, is there anything that you specifically think I should touch on that we haven't? >> No, >> no, you do whatever you want, >> do you see this, Jason? Okay, great. I thought one that was really interesting is is Orura's IPO in two in two different respects. One is it's Robin Hood's first role as an underwriter. They're listed 18th and last, but as a precursor to what could be an underwriter of the future. Is this foreshadowing of Robin Hood's next mega line of business and Robin Hood becoming so much more?

60:33 Absolutely. I mean, look, IPOs is about distribution and one, you know, it's not the retail is not the primary source of distribution. You know, there's typically this mental rule, you only want a certain percentage to go to retail, but that is percentage expanded. And I think SpaceX had a high retail allocation of 30%. Right? It's to some extent it's it's it's not enormous money, but it's free money if you're Robin Hood for just you you're not it's not like you're riding the S1, you sign on the bottom, you distribute your shares, you can allocate them to, you know, clients. And especially in a market where you get an IPO pop, it's, you know, it's gravy all around. You make money from the underwriting fees and you make your best clients happy with an IPO pop, right? So, it's a good business to be in and probably from the lead underwriters perspective, especially for these high-end tech offerings, the Robin Hood clientele is probably one that has a high propensity to want to buy these stocks. So, yes, it just totally makes sense. Just like Schwab in in frankly not as successful a way has ended up being an IPO distributor, too, but not at scale. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's an obvious add-on. I mean, you know, the Robin Hood story for what is what I just saw the numbers. It's just so amazing. I mean, they went I mean, they went basically 10xed in the public market. There was a free 10x in the public market in 3 years there on Robin Hood.

61:48 >> It's probably a reach, but there's a lot more IPOs we need to get done. It would be neat if Robin Hood didn't just get free money to their clients. It would be neat if it if it flipped the script where you really could have a decent IPO primarily from retail. Now, there's of course there's downsides. You certainly hope the institutional investors hold hold for two years. They are not obligated to but more often than not they do. Rory can share some stories. He has more than I do. But more that that playbook does it doesn't work perfectly but it sort of works right the institution they sort of work. But if you could flip the script so you really could have you know you could do a $200 200 million $3400 million IPO through Robin Hood leading right and most of it being retail that would be disruptive for for a subset of startups.

62:34 That'd be great for That'd be great for the ecosystem, right? Nvidia can't buy everything, guys. >> Agreed. >> At some point, we're going to need some IPOs to work through the portfolio. We're going to need a few IPOs. It' be nice for retail to really really work, right? >> I mean, the the the fact that IPOs have become a lot harder to do has been one of the biggest negatives on the tech ecosystem. So, anything that makes IPOs easier to do is good. Go Robin Hood.

63:01 >> Yeah. up from the rich to feed the poor. >> Will the or IPO pop? >> I think the fact that it is a somewhat understood consumer brand, right? And the fact that it has 74% growth, right, which obviously probably can't last forever. I think it's I think it's going to be a pretty successful IPO. It's the kind of thing people are going to going to want to buy. They understand it and the growth this is not 20% growth. This is not 18% growth. And there's downside, there's competition, it's confusing, but the subscription even maybe it's Pelatin 2.0, but for the moment, it's pretty attractive. I think it's a pretty attractive one. So, I think it's I think it'll be pretty successful, which at the margins good for everybody, right?

63:42 >> Hey, that's what I wanted, Rory. >> No, I agree. Plus one. >> and they don't, you know, the thing the thing about Aura to me, and again, we're software guys mostly. I mean, Harry will do anything that's growing a,000% or a year or more, 100% a year or more a month, but 85% re retention for the ring's pretty good. >> Totally. >> Right. So, so they may not have the Pelatin issue for the foreseeable future. It is it is like Pelatin at its peak, right? No. And Pelatin at its peak, no one churned, right? Except for Mr. Big. and >> that was good. That was good. I I like the way you worked in that, Jason. That was good. So if this fall I don't I I haven't done the waterfall. If oral retention falls to 40 50% like a consumer mobile app that's trouble. 85% that that's for for that that's like SMB like it's pretty good.

64:32 >> And maybe if Mr. Big had used the Aura ring a few earlier he'd have known he had a heart issue coming and he could have survived and you know run off with Sarah Jessica too or >> used a calcium CT scan for Christ sakes. He should have. >> In the interest of disclosure we have a small position in Aura. They've acquired a company we're invested in. So, I'm a big fan and a big supporter. They've been great to work with from a distance.

64:53 So, I wish them all the best in this IPO. >> We're big for you, Rory. And scale. We want everyone to get rich on this one. We're rooting for >> it, mate. >> Big big round for Wonderful. Wonderful more than doubles to 5 billion in under 6 months. apparently this founder is an absolute beast. Everyone I hear who describes him describes him in the same way which is just a machine. raised 550 550 million series C up from a $2 billion valuation earlier this year. This is what I didn't know this until actually doing the prep for this was the amount of secondary $170 million in secondary within two years of founding.

65:42 Sorry, can we just pause? What? What? 170 million in secondary within 2 years of founding. It's a mistake not to get to get all kind of moral about things. The buyers are sophisticated investors. They clearly felt they wanted to own more shares than the company was willing to sell and take delution. So this is what happens, right? I know it's what you said. The company's clearly executing amazingly well. It's, you know, at a wide level, it's all about enterprise AI deployment. They put, you know, engine, I hate the forward deployed engineer cliche, but they're in the business of making it happen for large enterprises that want to deploy AI, right? Initially, what I initially when I looked at it early on, it looked more like just customer support. I didn't meet the company. I was actually I thought we were conflicted. And now it appears to have built a more wider, you know, we will make your enterprise AI work story. And that's the number one corporate imperative. So apparently they're growing like a weed. You know, 100 million AR growing really hyper quickly because every corporation is trying to do this and they don't have access to the talent. So you know it it's an executionoriented business with what sounds like an executionoriented CEO and compelling numbers. VCs like that right? And once they're not willing to sell any more primary shares, I'm sure the VCs went to the CEO and said, "Dude, do you want to take care of your people?" And he's like, "Hm, I'm going to be hiring more. I need more people because I need to grow this business which means I need talent because it's probably quite talent dense and you know it probably takes a lot of people to do this kind of on-site deployment. So the number one thing I need as the CEO of this company is for potential future employees to think this is a gold mine. So in fact probably having a secondary is good for them because from a recruiting perspectives it allows you to say to the next hundred people come to work with us. Yes you'll get stuck on a fivemon deployment on a bank in Holland or a you know a electrical company in Germany. It'll be boring as but in return you'll make a ton of money. So I it all makes sense whether it turns out to be good deal or not. Well that's why they play the game.

67:51 Don't know but I can totally see how it's happened. >> Maybe just a couple small thoughts. I mean, first of all, going from start to, you know, 18 months to to 170 million in secondary, it it, you know, it it feels like the hop in of AI, although I don't think it is because of what Rory is saying, but it is breathtaking. Not not the valuation because we see that all the time, but but the secondary, but maybe two things. First, huge kudos to going from like the multilingual Sierra Decagon to like the the the team of 650 folks helping you deploy AI in the enterprise. is just it's a testament to how you win today, right? You can't you can't stay fixed to something, right?

68:28 You've got to build on everything you learn and iterate hourly and weekly, right? This is this is another tilt, right? It's a not only it looks like a a perfectly linear story, but it's there's a big tilt here in the early days, right? Which is like we're a bunch of I think really smart Israeli guys that know how to do Sierra and decagon for non-English-speaking folks to doing something much bigger in 10, 12, 14 months. I mean that >> you know this is this is what agentic coding and agentic development lets us do so it's epic right so I I love that part of it and that should be the toughest challenge to founders out there is that that this rate of change right for what they did this the one thing I'll say in the secondary not not I don't want to make fun of it hoppin but what I'm sure you guys see it even more than I do but you know the the round was led what by insight which is one of the most successful B2B investors of all time that there is right but it's competitive Right. And as great as Insight is, it's not Andre, right? And it's not Sequoia. So what do you do to win? You do whatever deal structure it takes to win. And this one was, and they've done prior rounds, I think, right? But this one was, we'll just give you 150 million in secondary, right? And so it's not bad. And I think Rory's right. They have 700 employees. So if you divide it up and you do it like not everyone's going to quit as much money as this is. They're not all going to quit tomorrow. But my meta point is we're going to see we're see we'll just see even more of this to win round. We will see behavior that is I'm not saying it happened with wonderful. We will see deal structures that are objectively bad for the company done more and more often to win deals. Whatever it takes bad for the bad for the company. Not not not destructive, right? But things you would not ordinarily do to win deals. We're going to we haven't even reached the peak of this. We haven't even reached the peak of crazy deal structures that just let you get into the effing deal, right? At any price, even when even when you have to grit your teeth to do the deal, right? you know, I don't think the founders all took the 170 themselves, right? But you you could see you could see deals where founders that say they don't want to stay like Howard Air Table take a billion and then leave thereafter to win the deal. We'll see some extreme stuff and this one won't be it, right? This will this might be the first the first of a set of extreme deals that happen, right? But it's how you win, right? And I see it in every growth round where it's not I'm sure Andre and Sequoia do the same too, don't get me wrong. But every every hot deal I've seen in my limited portfolio where it's not the hottest name to do the hottest round, there's all there's just as much extra stuff as as you want to win the deal. All the extra terms you could put in to win. They just don't care. What's everything I could put into this term sheet so that I win?

71:03 Everything. And some of it's great and some of it is maybe not so great. >> Sophisticated buyers, what can you do? My aha is the prize does, you know, the prize does go to the companies that can evolve the quickest. And you're right, it my memory did serve me correctly. Thank you for confirming it. It was just a CX story like 17 15 months ago and they've just evolved quickly. And in this market, the people who are making the money are the people who are just running fastest and evolving quickest.

71:32 And the difference, you know, the difference, the payoff from two years of grind. Yeah. That extra 10% of grind can have just a massive payoff in a world where fortunes are being made in 12 and 24 months. And that's the aha here. >> And I think the hard thing for for founders and for others is do you stick with something? Now, Wonderful, maybe I'm giving them maybe I'm saying it's more of a tilt than it was, but but for Wonderful, they did it internally, right? the founders got together, they they evolved the company very rapidly into something much more successful. On the other hand, we see Air Table where I'm going to assume how he sat around the table. This is the only thing that really makes sense in this weird deal, right? Is that he sat around and he said, "I just can't do hyper agent in Air Table. It's just there's too much too much institutional headaches, too many customers to deal with, too many grouchy investors that invested at 12 billion. I've tried and I assume you are, Rory, too. We're huge fans of sticking it out, you know, because it's proven to work. It worked at Palunteer.

72:29 It's worked at so many startups we invested. We have so many stories. This is all the great Honom stories of sticking it out, right? They're so inspiring from Altos. He's so good at that, right? But these days, you got to wonder, should you stick it out? Is it worth it to stick it out, guys? And I want I tell everyone to, but I almost challenge myself. Maybe you shouldn't stick. Maybe maybe you should abandon that 50 million, 100 million, 200 million in revenue. Maybe maybe you should do whatever it takes. Maybe maybe maybe you got to be as fast as wonderful. I actually don't think you should quote always stick it out. I think circumstances are different. I know, you know, back years ago when I had my own small business in the UK, I look back and I stuck at it for four years. Truly, I needed I knew everything I needed after the first year. I shouldn't have bought it for three more years. Waste of time. I look back and it's just so clear to me, right? So, you don't always take it out. Is there a plan or are you just doing it out of misguided loyalty? And that's the number one test. And I think you're right, Jason, because I don't think Wonder if it was a pivot as much as an expansion, right?

73:27 whereas I do think Air Table they were in that contract mode everything they had they were they had run out of time and space so I think it did you know >> probably more make sense to do that sale in that case I think yeah the facts are different >> I I think everyone in this category is being forced to though by Brett Taylor who's being very clear in terms of his expansion and >> yes >> and I think they're following suit and I think they need to follow suit as well to justify the prices that they're raising at so the combination of following brat and price hunger that's fair means we are all doing the same we're doing the operating system you know owners no longer just for us >> crudely put I mean you're exactly right is that you know Salesforce the company is the dominant SAS company it's worth roughly you $200 billion $180 billion I think service cloud is 25% of that so the winner is in the existing world is only worth 50 so as you get these bigger market caps like Sierra you have to go beyond on service cloud replacement to be a big company. You're exactly right how you have to sell the and the whole operating system. I take it all which means if you're C just to make the obvious point you're coming right at your former company right you're saying >> yeah I mean we want all your market cap Mr. Salesforce because the only way I can justify 15 or 20 billion in market cap for Sierra is not if I build a slightly better next generation service cloud. If I am the entire customer ecosystem for your entire business. Go team. And then you're right. Everyone else like one of them has to follow.

74:59 >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That's when someone goes risk on everyone goes risk on. >> Welcome to venture baby. >> Absolutely terrifying. what about what about thinking machines? $40 billion new price. It's down from the $50 billion last year. the round is 5 to6 billion. Excel leading with Nvidia doing half couple hundred million bucks in revenue. Closest thing to a US model provider in terms of kind of open and >> I think that's the real sentence here.

75:33 The the important thing is what you have to start what's the company doing? Why is it differentiated bet? And yes, they've done they've shipped two products. It's Thinky and Inkling. Cute names, right? And one of them is an openweight model that they themselves say is not pure frontier grade, but is openweight and US-based. And that's worked a lot in this world. And then on top of that, I think the other product inkling is a is a platform to allow enterprises to do their own training. So the idea here is now you can go to JP Morgan, you can go to BFA and say you've got an all American software product and you got an all and and you've got the ability to train it on your data in a totally proprietary way that's not exposed to OpenAI or entropic and in fact yeah full reinforcement all the things you want to build a state-of-the-art enterprise model for JP Morgan for you know whomever Proctor and Gamble right so it's a pretty decent compelling offering for corporations, right? I mean, so that's kind of the positive story. And it's interesting that Nvidia is doing so much because to some extent I thought that's what Poolside did and they just acquired Poolside. So what you're seeing Nvidia is saying anyone who's doing something interesting in corporate AI, we're going to put money in, right? So I think that's what's happening here.

76:51 >> I know we've already forgotten about it because it's been a week or two, but you know the poolside thing should be a little bit haunting. Not that a nine $7 billion exit is so terrible, right? Even though the the 15x thing kind of was one of Harry's Harry's clips that he took, but but that that memo was chilling. It's like we couldn't raise the round. >> Agreed. >> This was a great team with proven leader, very strong, you know, CTO, very strong leadership. had had the right vision, seems to have had the right vision from day one. Went for it, right?

77:23 And they just couldn't raise the capital they needed to execute. And Congrats to thinking machines which in some ways appears to have less right. but it is it is a reminder that the that the music the music will end for a lot of the neolabs right and so be it as it should. It should be a thinning of the herd. But the poolside one, we may we may never talk about it again. Or it's possible when this little part of the bubble burst, just one part of all the this Neolab bubble that will be looked back as the that those were those guys grabbed the exit when everybody else when Nvidia stopped buying everything and Enthropic said enough like that after Dart they said this stuff doesn't actually move the needle, right? It's enough already with the infinite uh10 billion deals. We've had enough, right?

78:06 May maybe maybe we look back and they were the lucky guys that got the deal done on December 2021. >> Yeah. And and just to be clear, like ju just to remind everyone, like what we're saying is a few weeks ago, Poolside effectively didn't they would deny that they sold, but they sold a license for their product to Nvidia, which was an openw weight enterprise US focused model and they, you know, the company still exists, but they cashed out quite a lot, right? And the memo that Jason is referencing is the note they wrote at the time basically saying could you know we were right but we couldn't access enough capital to continue to play. And it's interesting that literally two or three weeks later another company in a not dissimilar business is actually being able to sounds like it's being able to access that capital in part ironically from Nvidia who were also willing to buy poolside right so yeah they get to play out the hand and I think you're right Jason will you look back and go two years from now you could look back and go poor Poolside they got sold out and thinking machines made a 4x from here or there's another world where you look back and you go oh my god I wish I'd sold because the opportunity got tough for thinking machines and poolside maybe as you say it was the last exit out. It'll be interesting to see.

79:20 >> The world just changed after Astra, we will be talking about in 24 months. And that was the end of the need for Neolabs. It it was hard to see at the time, but when Astra 6 came out, the world changed and it became this and us versus China, right? And then the new AI regulatory council, Trump regulatory council came in and changed things again. >> All those things could happen. Though I do believe I mean fundamentally you do believe that there is going to be strong demand from corporate America for a openweight US-based model with the infrastructure to train that model right and I think thinking machines is in a good position to meet that demand now right and I just think companies are going to want it right because you really only have them reflection which I don't know where they are in terms of the model and pool side but I'm sure there's others and they'll all come out of the woodwork and flag me for not mentioning them But there's clearly a massive market need there.

80:12 >> There's a couple more, but there's not many more. There there are constrained five or six players >> for precisely the reason the pool side outlined is that >> but the cash has dried up at scale for the Neol players who I think now are going to your as we've seen it no longer becomes a venture play. >> Yeah. I mean it was there was a good I mean the the Neol post that you know you shared with us and I read was just interesting. Exactly. It's and the and we've kind of held that is that two big companies, two foundation models were Neolabs themselves 5 years ago and they've turned to be the best venture bets of all time. Just because that's true doesn't mean the other 100 Neolab bets that you can bet on today will also turn out to be amazing venture bets because now you have other companies with the capital already. you have other companies with the distribution and yeah, the question is which of those Neolab bets will be orthogonal enough to the foundation model companies to be able to be an interesting bet. You know, we're wrestling with that question every day cuz obviously you'd like to make those bets, but if you're doing something that's going to get rolled over by the either rolled over because the financial model companies do it or as Jason says, if you can't raise the capital to play the game, it gets hard.

81:25 Boys, is there anything that I've missed that we should discuss? >> I don't know if it's true or not, but Twitter is saying, is Antropic going to drop its S1 today? or is that not the case? I don't know. But yes, that will be interesting to say the least. That will be that will be heavily downloaded and read within the first, you know, hour of reading it of of coming out. So, >> my word. Will you be buying at two trillion, Rory?

81:52 in I'm not probably not going to be buying a two trillion high, but that's not a comment on the stock. Actually, the answer is in the end, yes, I'm in S&P and QQQ. I'm going to be getting, as my wife said when SpaceX went out, looks like we got some of that from Elon, too, right? it's in the index, baby. It's coming your way. You know, not as quickly on spy as QQQ, but on your NASDAQ index, that stock is going to be in your hands 12, I think, 12 days after the IPO. So, you're a buyer, boys. Thank you.