220: BRUTALLY HONEST BODYBUILDING TAKES

0:02 Welcome back to another episode of the Bodybuilding and Downtime podcast. You are joined by the Aussie bodybuilding fantastic four. Myself, DC. We've got DY. We've got Jack. We've got Lawrence. We've got everybody on the podcast today, so it is an exciting day for sure. But, I wanted to kind of dive straight into the most recent show that we had here in Australia. It was the first ever natural NPC pro qualifier held in Victoria, Melbourne. Was the only one serious about it. I believe I was the only the only one actually there. So, for the next sort of half an hour, I'm just going to speak to myself. But, what did you boys think? The, the standards, we obviously on the Instagram post, or profile we've thrown up all the the winners of the, of the categories.

0:46 And honestly, like me being there on the day, seeing these athletes in the flesh, just seeing the standard of athletes that's up there, was pretty pretty damn incredible. It was a a well-run event as, you know, usually the IFBB here in Australia. And, the competitors on stage were very competitive. And I think there were, you know, many lineups, many open divisions that truthfully could have potentially gone sort of either way in terms of who they who they went with. And there were also a couple of that were, I would say, sort of clear clear winners in in certain categories as well.

1:18 But, what did you boys think of the, I guess, the season at large and and even just, you know, what the Nationals look like to on the socials? >> Mhm. >> >> I think when you come to the National show, it was very very impressive because there were some people from state to state that were like, "Fuck, these guys are good." But, when you get every one of them together, like, it was a very very high caliber show. And dare I say, probably even the highest caliber of natural athletes I've ever seen in Australia at a single show. Like, every division was very very good. Like, like, there were some people there, like, obviously we saw figure at Queensland, absolutely incredible physique.

1:56 Arguably, probably the most impressive physique I've ever seen and by a decent shot as well. Mind-blowing. And I've been to WMBF Worlds, so then you have that, then you have men's physique as well, also crazy impressive. I think even just a New South Wales show in general, I believe had four ICN pro champions for men's physique going head-to-head. So, I guess it goes to show how competitive it is. It's like And then you also had another guy coming over that I would think was came second to Mo in the men's physique lineup from a whole different country to be able to try and get this pro card, which was very close between it. It was just so much talent across every single division.

2:38 yeah, it was it was very impressive. Like I said, when you actually go like athlete for athlete at the highest level in these open classes, they're probably undoubtedly higher than any other natural show I've seen in Australia thus far. >> Yeah, for sure. And I I feel like you know, this this season really just showcased to I guess the bodybuilding community at large just how sort of dominant the IFBB can be in the the natural sort of space as well in terms of, you know, the natural shows.

3:07 I heard that maybe maybe maybe maybe they might be looking to coordinate natural shows in amongst the like season A and season C as well. So, and this is not something that probably comes to surprise, to be honest, because even if I think about some of the shows internationally, that's often how they coordinate a lot of the NPC shows overseas, where essentially they'll have like day one as being the natural and then day two as the like the non-tested event. So, it kind of it creates a really big show, obviously, for the weekend cuz you've got both the natural side of things and then potentially the more, you know, enhanced.

3:44 so, that'll be very interesting. I haven't actually you know, obviously, there's nothing official out at this point in time as to whether that's something that will take place, but I'm I'm wondering if that's possibly the direction that they they look to go just because there is there are more shows to capitalize on, right? In terms of your people that would be interested jumping into the natural NPC. But yeah, what were you going to say? >> I wonder if the level of talent is going to stay this high though for the season B IFBB naturals because I feel like being the first pro card for these shows, I feel like everyone came out of the woodwork trying to do get these pro cards because a majority of these people are thinking especially in like men's physique, like a majority of these guys were already ICN pro pro champion winners. Like I said, I think four just in New South Wales. So like when you have that and it's like what's next for these guys? It's the IFBB pro cards. And then it's like when you finally get this dropped in Australia, I think it draws a lot of eyes initially on the first season, but I wonder if it's going to keep up with this because like there was some fantastic physiques. If it keeps rolling around like this every season B, good lord is it going to be impressive especially against some like with some of these muscular divisions as well.

4:54 Like you know, classic physique. I think bodybuilding is well there with obviously Elvis like crazy crazy physique. So bubbly. it'd be very interesting to see if it just keeps continuing to grow like this and you know, we get more and more competitors or if it was kind of like that first season, everyone came out the woodwork and we see how it smooths out amongst the rest of the seasons. >> Yeah, I think if anything more people like having my first IFBB natty show for the Queensland one and also watching the pretty much the whole of the live stream for nationals.

5:29 Like I think it's only going to incentivize more people to compete just cuz of the like even for myself, I'm like I I wasn't necessarily not planning to do IFBB, but I was like hey, it's it's another federation. Like maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't, but now I'm probably leaning more towards yes. Like next time I compete. dipped my toe into the ring of IFBB just cuz it's yeah, it was a it was a great show, well organized.

5:54 The venues were great, lighting was great. Tony does a great job of of presenting on the day and so I think that'll incentivize a lot of people. Plus like they don't exactly hand out a lot of pro cards either. It's not like every open class is winning a pro card. So I think those people who don't who miss out like usually there's that extra draw of okay, I just missed out, time to kind of bring it like roll around again and and try my luck a second time. So yeah, I think the the major thing for me that I'd still like to see and I know you guys talked about this on the episode that I missed is is really just I would love it when I competed if if it would just be five to seven years or 10 years drug-free, but not not calling out anyone on on at Nationals who competed.

6:40 I so it's not a knee-jerk reaction from that, but more so just in general I I'd still love to see that as a as a change. >> And as we've seen with like the Ben Weider's when it was the first time it got released, like everyone that won titles here has been almost like an esteemed natural competitor. Figure winner has won multiple pro titles like naturally. Mo as well, also WMBF pro, so 100% clean there as well there. So a lot of these people that were winning Gabriella as well.

7:10 like you know, they've have been naturals and have been huge advocates for naturals for the longest period of time. So it's not like we've got someone that's suspicious that's done IFBB 10 years ago, five years ago and was as big as Ronnie Coleman and now next thing you know he's like off and now magically somehow he's doing the the natural season. Like a lot of these people that were winning these shows and divisions were like everyone's known about known about them for a long time and I think there was a lot of eyes going on them, you know, especially like for this first season.

7:40 One one thing I'd be interested to see which actually someone brought up to me is actually giving out masters pro cards for the IFBB because we don't get that in Australia and I think that's one thing that probably should change especially within the bikini division. Like over in America they're giving out masters pro cards to go to masters Olympia, you know, in the natural and the enhanced side. In Australia, I just don't think we're getting those the recognition for the masters. So I don't know, maybe the listeners might be able to comment on it at home. I know per pro card apparently they need to pay for it.

8:12 So obviously they're giving out pro cards they have to pay the rights to hand out the pro cards, but I think I think with the level of talent especially in like bikini masters and some of even these figure girls, like they could definitely stand on the like some of these pro show lineups and I get I think unfortunately not having the ability to do that, I think kind of shoots Australia in the foot on that side of things. Interested to hear your thoughts.

8:36 >> Yeah, for sure. I agree. I think I think masters pro cards should be something that's that's handed out. I I know for example like the NBA hand out those masters cards and you know, there's some incredible masters talent that come through that the ranks there. So, you know, if there's the opportunity for a masters card to be handed out within the IFBB, I think there's competitors that that can stand up and and showcase an incredible physique and are probably worthy of it, you know, provided that the numbers.

9:05 So yeah, for sure. I was going to just go quick throw out to the the individuals that you know, took away their their pro card or won the the opens and the overalls categories. So first up is men's physique athlete Mohammad Bokhari. And I mean this gentleman won his WNBF pro card the first season I believe WNBF was here in Australia that awarded a pro card. the man competed alongside Eric Eric Helms as well. I think he was even in your season as well, Lawrence, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he he won the the overalls in in that give. And I feel like it was a perhaps a little bit of a stealth prep on his in his on his behalf. Like, I actually was at the NPC show in Queensland. I remember walking past the the door leading into like the crowd and the stage, and I see the man up on stage, and I kind of did like a double take. I was like, "What What's going on here?" Because obviously this man has his WNBF bodybuilding pro card, but he also just fits that men's physique look so beautifully as well, you know.

10:08 >> I think one thing with it is he's just a huge individual in general. Like, I believe his stage weight was like 89 kilos, and then AJ, like, who was next to him for the overall, I believe was like 70 kilos. So, you're talking like 19 kilos of stage weight like next to someone. Like, that is a big big boy. And when you put that side by side next to someone, and you go, "All right, what's the closest criteria to that Olympia level?" And it's like, "Well, this guy's got the mass, that's for damn sure." I would be very interested to see I know it's got It would have been very very close between the two.

10:43 both incredible physiques, too. >> Yeah, I think I think I think Mo was just a a standout in that lineup in that overalls. Like, I think I think it was quite unanimous the decision to go go for him up there. Just like his back thickness, back density, smallness of the waist. he just presented a very sharp very very sharp physique. Like, one of the probably the more one of the more impressive men's physique athletes I've seen up on stage, for sure.

11:07 So, congratulations to to him. next up we have the men's physique sorry, men's classic physique winner, which was which was Tony, Tony Hewen. And mate, phenomenal, beautiful portions, very full on stage, great poser, great poise. I think he was a a bit of a fan favorite also coming into the the overalls or coming into the the nationals there. But I tell you what, Elvis, who who went on to win the the men's bodybuilding in the follow-on category, they were in the same open class and man, they they pushed one another. There was times where my eyes were drawing a little bit towards Elvis because he's just he's just got a lot of density. He he's very bubbly. His conditioning was was pretty damn good as well.

11:54 you know, he he possibly is just a little bit more suited to the to the bodybuilding div. I think Tony does have a bit more of that sort of classic S, you know, look, but I reckon Elvis pushed him, that's for sure. And obviously came came back and and won the the men's the men's bodybuilding. So, they were definitely two of the the sharpest and and sort of most standout athletes, I think, across those two divisions, for sure.

12:17 Mhm. >> >> Yeah, I was I was interested to see how they stood up against each other in person cuz yeah, I was just seeing it on the live stream. >> Yep. Yep. And I think I mean, I I believe by the time Elvis got on stage, he'd been dieting for 5 weeks to to to to achieve his conditioning. So, he did something like a 3-week prep for the the state show and then had a 2-week gap basically running it into the Nationals.

12:43 How do you feel about that, Jack? Cuz that actually sort of beats your record, mate. Is that like how you feeling, man? I mean, that's that's like that must be the record for the best possible prep turnaround. I feel like that you had that previously, but but now you don't. So, you're going to have to put in at least 2 2 weeks now, right, to get onto that. I mean, we got >> Well, I I didn't have a break in between. I had 3 weeks and then two back-to-back. So, I think I'm actually still on top.

13:08 >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. But we're getting we're delving into semantics. I'll I'll let I'll let him be maybe tying that with me in first place. >> Yeah, okay. That's super humble of you, man. That's really not really nice of you. But yeah, that wraps up the the men's divisions. All incredible incredible athletes, honestly, on stage. Like there were so many standout athletes, honestly. And you know, each each open winner was was looked like looked incredible. I don't think anyone jumped into into the overalls who didn't have to fight for it to essentially be up there.

13:40 And then moving into the women's divisions, we had fit model, which was Amber Dewar. And I believe she correct me if I'm wrong, but she had done like five seasons back-to-back of fit model before she actually got her pro card. Is that right, Dewar? >> Yeah, five seasons back-to-back. I think very well earned. I think she was like runner-up to a pro card, I think, like three or four times of that as well, like. So, I think it's one of those ones that is very, very well earned.

14:09 especially from a natural athlete as well, like, you know, you know how hard it is to get in condition, but then to maintain that for like five seasons back-to-back is like crazy stuff, so very well earned. >> 100%, yeah. I mean, we we always talk about how for the most part, you know, 99% of individuals probably shouldn't do back-to-back seasons, nor should do five back-to-back seasons in that regard. But I think this is just a testament to someone who possibly lives their life at a at a leaner body composition and has the habits in place in order to to maintain that and can actually like improve season to season as well, which is pretty damn cool.

14:48 There was kind of a running joke on the day that she had been absolutely bugging the judges and Tony every single season to be like, what can I do to improve? Like, how can I take this W? and so, you know, this is a testament to someone who's just doesn't say no for an answer and just keeps keeps keeps working for it, you know? Like, doesn't throw in the towel the first time they they don't win it or the second time they don't win it, like they keep pushing forward from it.

15:12 Where most individuals might sort of step away and go, this is not for me anymore or it's outside of my reach. You just have that self-belief to kind of keep pushing, which is pretty damn pretty damn cool. The the second winner of the day in the women's categories was the the figure athlete, and that's Natalie Natalie Williams. Now, I had an athlete in in the in the scene, which was Gabby, and Gabby is a a dual WNBF pro.

15:35 Amazing amazing athlete. When Natalie walks out on stage though, it is just it it's hard to not look at her though, right? So, like even my athlete in the mix, and Gabby's an incredible athlete, Natalie is just the muscle she brings is just you know, it's on a new level, honestly. And there were athletes on the day, and even, you know, coaches on the day that were looking at her and going, "Man, if she jumps into the enhanced scene as a as a like a natural in the figure lineup, like she'd do pretty damn well." She was a a real standout athlete. What did you guys think?

16:08 >> I remember seeing her at Queensland, and she was very impressive. Like I I it was just one of those ones that you saw the I remember even seeing your girl DC and the Gab, and I was like, "Wow, she looks good." I even remember selling it I was like, "She's going to be very hard to beat." But then you just had it's just one of those situations that like, you know, you have a someone that looks so good, but all it takes is just one absolute workhorse that's a genetic freak, and comes out, and then you're sitting there, and you're like, "Oh, well." It's like it's like kind of like a Bubba car moment. You're sitting there, and the next thing you know, Bubba car walks out next to you. It doesn't matter how good you are, it's a pack it up and go home, and you know, I'll see you next season" kind of vibe. It's She She was just so impressive, so much density through the upper as well, such a nice V taper.

16:52 just overall such an aesthetically pleasing physique. and like I said, even like before we got into all the names of every division when I probably the most the best best figure physique I've ever seen. I've been to WNBF Worlds, and I've watched the WNBF World Pro lineup. She would She would be definitely up there as probably like a a favorite to win that, which just goes to show something, because that is arguably the pinnacle. >> Yeah, 100% man. I think yeah, it's I would say she's probably the most impressive physique, like figure athlete I've seen up on stage for sure, over the the years of coaching and observing the scene.

17:30 then moving into women's physique, we had Taylor Taylor Robinson, and she looked awesome. I think she jumped up onto the figure the figure lineup as well, and then obviously jumped into the women's physique too. then we had wellness, which was Ashley Self. And honestly that that wellness lineup was very competitive. I think the standard of wellness in the NPC that lineup moving into the overalls was probably the most competitive wellness lineup I've ever seen on on stage for sure. and I think what it does, it kind of really solidifies in place like what wellness should look like at a natural level. You know, there should be a clear A-frame going on where the lower half is just asymmetrical to the upper.

18:16 The glutes are very full. You know, I would say all top three had incredible glute ham tie-ins, like it was a very strong very strong category, that's for sure. And then finishing off with possibly one of the more competitive like categories of the day. I believe there were a lot of women's bikini athletes. The winner was Gabriella Castillo. Did you watch that particular category, or did you watch that those open classes, DY?

18:46 >> I thought you were about to ask Lawrence for a sec. Thought he was about to Yeah, man, you know, crack into that. >> Lawrence has just kicked out. I didn't even realize he was here. >> Yeah, yeah. >> >> Don't wake me up next time, DY. I'm just just trying to catch a few z's out here. >> Yeah. No, yeah, man. >> He was too busy attached to the Strava. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:05 I'm literally on the trail. I'm I'm 10k's in. I'm running. So, yeah, yeah, just keep it down. >> You have to tune into the YouTube video, but Lawrence is actually running on one of those walking pads underneath his standing desk right now. So, he just had to catch his breath for a sec, but yeah, he's on a quick mile pace right now. He's flying. I think he's looking for about a 15-minute 50 pace. so going for a PB. But, yeah, I did look over the bikini men. I pretty much watched the entire lineup. Obviously, Camellia had some competitors in there.

19:34 Shout out to them. but yeah, he was extremely extremely competitive. pretty much across the board there. Like, you know, you had Gab, you had Jess, you had Brooke in there as well. So, there were multiple athletes that just looked crazy with crazy amounts of density there as well. I believe the final two was Gab or Jess and it would have been very close between the two. I'll tell you that. I don't know if it was a little bit different in person, but just looking at it, it would have been a very close lineup. So, but obviously, Gab took it.

20:04 Very well deserved. I believe it's about 5 years worth of shows coming, you know, being in the overall in an enhanced lineup, the untested side of the sport, and just missing out on a pro card a few years ago. Coming back, not getting the result that you wanted. To then come back in the first natural season and then take it, I think was a very fulfilling moment and very well deserved. So, yeah, the the lineups were crazy, man. The bikini lineups, especially when you look at the open classes from each state were very impressive. And then when you have them all together, in you know, four high classes, like it was a very very national show.

20:43 >> Yeah, yeah, 100%. Congratulations to not only just the winners, but all competitors that competed across the season. I think it was a pretty awesome season at large. But, now that we're going to jump into the second kind of leg of our our podcast here, I wanted to sort of throw across some unhinged podcast questions or perhaps some unhinged topics that we can comment on, we can debate on, we can sort of true or false true or falsify because I we're all about controversy here at at BDU.

21:15 But the first kind of unhinged question I'm going to throw across to the boys here is that most coaches under diet their athletes because they're afraid of creating too much discomfort. Yes or no, true or false, what do we believe? >> I would say definitely like you see a lot of people that are softer than probably what they need to be than leaner than what they need to be. Like >> I would I would say false but I think it more so just comes down to overall preparation and timing and strategy and circumstances rather than I think if anything I mean it's so circumstantial so like I on one hand of course I agree with DY but on the other hand like I think if anything sometimes being un- under prepared or utilizing a strategy which may not be the right strategy in that moment leads to actually people being more aggressive and causing like actually digging people unnecessarily hard just to bring in some semblance of conditioning so I think it can 100% go either way.

22:18 Depends depends how philosophical we want to be on these answers. >> What about you Lawrence? It's time to take a bit bit of a breather and contribute to the podcast. What do you recommend? >> Sorry man. I just I had to go get a sip of water just from using my voice a lot in the first half of the episode so I'm I feel like I'm good to go now. Look I agree with DY. I think you see a lot more people that are under done as opposed to like way over dieted.

22:44 so I do think you there is that element and probably even within the first you know like preps that I've done you definitely have that element of like oh this number is like a little bit lower than I'd like and you know the person on the other end is telling me that they don't feel amazing but ultimately you you of have to have that understanding that of course we try and mitigate the harms as much as possible but you know it is a performance sport and you know how the person feels sometimes does have to get thrown out of the window if that person is you know really aiming for a certain standard in terms of the stage conditioning. So I would I would probably err on the side of like yeah I think a lot of the time coaches are afraid to to sort of push people to that limit for fear of maybe sort of getting into waters that are very very uncomfortable.

23:32 >> Mhm. >> See I feel like it it kind of goes both ways cuz you got coaches that I feel like are un- uneducated on the side of the sport and they just think that the low calories and doing heaps of output and heaps of hours on the stairs is like kind of how you get there. So to an extent there they're obviously pushing the diet a lot harder but they don't have the actual necessary skills to be able to land the person where they need to be. So even though the food's really hard and they're technically like over dieting they also don't have the fundamentals in line if they were over dieting like to have them sitting in a like a respectable level of conditioning maybe the prep might be too short. They might be over dieting them but the prep is just so short that it doesn't matter if they over diet they're just going to look regardless. So I think it kind of goes both ways like obviously Jack side of the thing works there as well but majority of the time sometimes you know the coaches don't want to offend the clients or maybe don't have certain things in place and they play it a little bit too slow and like you know the rate of loss falls back a couple of weeks and you go we need to get a four 500 g rate of loss they got a 200 g but in the check in they said they were tired maybe we'll take it another week here we'll see how it goes before you know it now they're two weeks behind now they have to put the foot on the gas pedal makes it worse so I think there's just a level of I think understanding the prep and the education side of thing on the coaches side of like the the equation I think that also comes into it but I think personally there's too many soft people on the stage so I'd probably say the feelings aspect probably plays into it more than someone that actually digs them in with a required with an actual game plan.

25:06 >> Mhm. Yeah, I definitely think it's multifaceted, hey. I I do think that a lot of the time as coaches, especially for the categories that require getting like very lean, I mean, how often can you get someone to rib cage glutes and not have to pull upon some strings in terms of, you know, and steps and output that may not conventionally on paper look fantastic. You know what I mean? Like, you're going to need to pull them down in terms of intake. You're going to need to drive steps up. And someone looking at it just in in isolation without any sort of context to what you're wishing to achieve probably will look at it and go, "Man, this this is like not ideal." And it's not ideal, you know what I mean? Like, we're not trying to create an ideal situation, but so I think there definitely is an element of coaches not wishing to not sort of being afraid to push the athlete too too hard in that regard. But then also, Jack, I think you hit the nail on the head really well there where it just comes down to understanding truly how much total weight is needed to, you know, lose and and essentially creating a very realistic timeline in terms of how many weeks is required to actually achieve it alongside how many buffer weeks you need and all that sort of stuff as well.

26:15 But let's move on to the second one here. >> Did you say buffer weeks? >> Buffer weeks. >> Like, how many buffer weeks? >> Exactly. Exactly right, yeah. Push the athlete athlete too hard to many buffer weeks. but moving on to the second one here, judges reward conditioning more favorably than other aspects of the criteria such as symmetry and muscularity. Now, there's no right or wrong answers in these, by the way, we're just creating topics of conversation. What do we What do we think, boys? Do you think conditioning ranks higher than the others in terms of a a mark or a score? As much as there was obviously a criteria in place.

26:48 Like, I I personally, I'll give my sort of anecdote here. When someone is not conditioned enough for the category, I think it plays almost the largest role in determining that their stage placings. Like if someone rocks up to the bodybuilding stage and they might have amazing shape, amazing symmetry, but they're 5 kilos heavier than what needs to be struck to really reveal the physique, I don't think any level of muscularity or shape can catch that up can catch that loss of conditioning. So, I do think an element of conditioning is like it ranks pretty damn high up on you know in the in the criteria for each division. And you could almost argue the same for like you know women's bikini and things like that as well where perhaps the conditioning requirement isn't as substantial as as bodybuilding, but you know if you come in unconditioned, I feel like a lot of the judges are going to overlook you pretty quickly.

27:42 >> I I feel like I feel like I would have to agree. I do think like per federation sometimes that conditioning scale maybe sits a little bit higher than some others. A good example like I'll use here is I feel like the IFBB since in the natural realms they look a lot more closer to like we want them to be as close to the Olympia level as possible, which means they're probably going to favor a lot more size and fullness. And I think I saw this with you DC when you were obviously over there competing in like the classic physique division. You're arguably probably one of the more conditioned guys there, but they had guys that were arguably could probably other two, three, four kilos, but were placing higher because they like that fullness look. They were still lean, don't get that twisted. And I think BK's post summed it up quite nicely. When you have the highest level of athletes, it's the combination of everything that really does make the difference, but I think some feds may bias a little bit more conditioning. A good example is ICN. I think ICN really likes conditioning on their athletes. I think everyone on would be able to like probably say that, but then you have like WMBF I think likes a lot more symmetry, front to back balance, like you know, muscularity, like you know, those aspects to it. And then you know, obviously the IFBB fullness, like, you know, we're comparing it to the IFBB like the open class Olympia.

29:02 So, I think every fed kind of biases something a little bit more, but that being said, the perfect athlete in my opinion would always still win. If you have bubble gut rolling in there with perfect conditioning, perfect symmetry, all the nuts and bolts, like it doesn't matter. Like someone could be still 5 kilos heavier than him in regards of body fat, but be 10 kilos they probably wouldn't be enough to be able to take that if that makes sense. So, but I do agree with you, DC. I think conditioning is the one thing that you can realistically always control, and I think having that like and if the judges competed before, kind of knows that, I think it does like kind of play decently into the the judge the judges criteria.

29:41 Like you said, if you're 5 kilos off stage lean, and you've seen it time and time before. I've seen it within the ICN. The guy's nice and bubbly, but he's way too soft like and he's sitting in fifth place because of it. I believe it was a classic give maybe like a 1 and 1/2 years ago. yeah, I think it's the balance of everything, but I do think some feds like a little bit more stuff from fed to fed.

30:05 >> I think also just being conditioned enough also and brings out everything else. It brings out muscularity especially with the tan on and stage lights. And if you're not conditioned enough and then you're got a thick layer of tan on then it's >> >> it's going to not going to do you any favors. So, I think conditioning is sort of that glue that brings out every other component of symmetry and muscularity too. So, it's almost hard not to weigh symmetry I'm sorry, weigh conditioning a bit more heavily even if it is meant to be equally weighted.

30:36 >> That's one thing I would say that you just said there though, Jack, is conditioned enough. Sometimes you have competitors that you can be like this person could pull off three more and that'd be like ooh shredded like rib cage glutes and look crazy, but we go they're actually conditioned enough below. Like the glutes are fully boxed off on a bodybuilder. We're still seeing some lines here and there. We've got a lot of separation. Like, you know, really good symmetry and muscularity.

30:59 It's like, well, he's conditioned enough. And I think that's another point there. But when they're 4 kilos up from conditioned enough when they're probably six off state like mega shredded, like that's when it really makes a difference. So, I think there is what you said there that difference of conditioned enough to be able to be like not ruled out from some of these bigger titles. >> I think that's another interesting topic though. If we don't mind getting sidetracked to like let's say someone's conditioned enough and then pulling off another three or four kilos. Like are they are they beating someone just because they're more conditioned or are they beating someone because getting even more conditioned brings out other favorabilities of the other criteria points? Cuz like I would say if someone's conditioned enough then like is the extra sort of 10% conditioning really doing them any favors? Especially like especially there's the higher risk as well of it costing muscularity or fullness or symmetry there as well.

31:57 >> I think conditioning enough almost almost relevant to like who else you stand up next to on stage really because you know like for example for example Elvis who won the the men's bodybuilding. Phenomenal size, phenomenal physique, symmetry was incredible. A little bit more conditioning that could have could have probably come off. I would say so. if another gentleman had rocked up with the same proportions and everything like that, same size, same symmetry, but came in two three kilos leaner you know, rib cage glutes I think it would have been game over. I don't think Elvis would have would have had it. So, I almost think like in a way it's it's lean enough, you know. And and so that's why I think like conditioning in in a way, yeah, like we've we've talked about it, it kind of does rank high up, especially very high up, you know, because you need to make sure it's enough to capture the other aspects of the physique that you wish to portray as well.

32:52 >> Mhm. I think there's also a difference between conditioned enough and a world-class standard. Now, I'll give you an example like Lawrence when when Lawrence had his WMBF title, like the guy that won the amateurs, he looked fantastic. He was conditioned enough. In my opinion, he probably could have You pull him into the pro show that next day, he was like fifth like and there were people that were way leaner than him. And I think when you put people in a pro lineup when they've got everything already, that's when the conditioned enough isn't enough to drag them over the line no more. And I think that's And even like I've seen people like, you know, Issa Pateel, for example, her standard got rate Someone was talking about it. They got the judges feedback and she was like, "The perfect condition."

33:34 If you have a look at Issa's recent shots, she's shredded, like shredded. You would put that next to like the standard overall amateur bikini winner for the NPC, the conditioning standard wouldn't even be close. The other girl's 4% leaner. That's the difference between pro level Olympia level conditioning and something that's just good enough to win a pro card. I think that's the difference between it. There's a difference between winning a pro card and winning a pro championship level of conditioning and you've got to kind of have the whole package. And sometimes people can get the pro cards without the entire package, but that's what's needed to obviously get to that next level. That's what takes them there.

34:11 >> Mhm. Mhm. For sure. I'm going to throw this one over to you, Jack. It's related to nutrition. If an athlete can't hit their macros in the off-season consistently, they're not even close to being ready to compete. >> Mhm. I would say for the most part, yes. Like if it's a nice sort of blanket answer, if they can't if they can't be consistent or accurate in the improvement season, then chances are they're not going to be able to flick that switch in comp prep. But it it depends what sort of approach is used in comp prep as well. Like I think I would say if they can't do it in pre-prep, where like the pressure is on to be like, "Okay, I actually need you hitting your macros or a certain level of accuracy here," then and you fail at that throughout pre-prep, whether pre-prep's like 4, 6, 8, 12 weeks, then yeah, that your chances are you're I I wouldn't encourage you to prep, but some people might be being relatively intuitive in the off-season and not tracking like super rigorously.

35:11 So, it depends on yeah, I think obviously depends on the context where if someone is trying to track and if they're failing, then yeah, it's not a it's not a good look. Cuz I could also swing around to the recovery phase as well, where like if if you can't even be accurate in in the off-season, then good luck in the recovery phase when there's a lot more against you. >> Yeah, for sure. I think Yeah, that that context is is really important. So, like for example, just as you mentioned, if someone can't can't strike it because they're perhaps like nutritional literacy or their skill set relation to tracking or consistency is not there, then then definitely I would say line in the sand, the capacity to to track within the constraints of contest preparation is probably going to be very difficult and I possibly don't think that they're ready to to start a prep yet. But if they're not tracking because they it's it's it's it's a choice, but they have great nutritional practices, they've tracked in the past very successfully, you know, and they're choosing not to track, but they still have the strategies in place that surround like protein feeds and consistency with nutrition and their habits are are very positive in relation to bodybuilding, I don't see that potentially being being an issue realistically, but that's probably that some comes with, you know, dietary deregulation and experience within the field. so two completely different different constraints.

36:30 But I'm going to throw this one over to you, Lawrence. Mineral tracking or missed workouts because of life simply means it wasn't a priority. >> Yeah. Feels very targeted. no, I think yeah, well, look, priority is one of those things where, you know, sometimes you do have to admit that the training or the nutrition wasn't a priority. And there's sometimes where that's probably valid, right? Like, you know, if if someone is putting their their family or or their children ahead of, you know, their training or nutritional goals, then I I think that's that's probably not something, you know, for a for a coach to necessarily argue with, but I think once again it comes back to like what has that person told the coach that their goals are. Like, if someone was working with a coach and they said, "Hey, I want a WMBF pro card and I could be pro card and I'm going to do whatever it takes." And they're sort of consistently having things get in the way, then they need to evaluate how serious about it they are. They need to evaluate like, "Okay, is this goal really a priority right now? If things consistently get in the way, is this maybe something that needs a longer timeline because right now we can't prioritize it as much as we need to?"

37:46 And I don't think either is right or wrong, just as long as that individual is honest with themselves. I think where people really get into trouble is where they're struggling to prioritize, you know, their health and fitness, their bodybuilding, whatever it may be, but they're sort of they're sort of so hell-bent on this I need to reach this goal, I need to achieve this thing. Because at some point it's it just comes down to a, you know, you don't necessarily want it enough. And that's okay because there might be other things that deep down you want more right now, and that's fine. but if someone is really hell-bent on achieving a certain thing on stage and things continue to throw them off the rails and continue to take the place of their training and nutritional goals as far as priorities are concerned.

38:33 It's kind of up to that person to work that out for themselves and get their head in a place where, you know, they they have a bit of a think about what they really want. >> Mhm. And it's often a tough one as well, hey, because as a coach you need to you need to have that difficult conversation and and really paint that picture in terms of, "Okay, you're wishing to achieve X X goal, but if our current habits and our current, you know, behaviors in place are just not aligned towards that, we need to either recalibrate, we need to either change the standard associated with the goal or level up or, you know, increase our our effort investment towards it.

39:09 It's kind of one or the other or we lose or we just aim for it and we we land completely off course. And, you know, we're we're going to need to be cool with that if if you know, if if if things don't change. >> I think that's a big one is sort of communicating that to clients and sort of saying, "Hey, like every now and again things aren't going to go to plan or hey, there seems to be a pattern here where you're falling short of the goal."

39:31 And if you can say to them, "Look, you just need to accept that like the weeks where you choose to not do this or that, it's going to mean we don't make as much progress." But I think what's helpful as well with clients and I think this can apply to gym pop and to competitive physique athletes is just kind of setting what you deem as like the minimum standard. You know, like on a week where it feels like nothing goes our way, what is the minimum standard that we get done? Maybe it's like you know, three out of the five training sessions, tracking at least protein and calories, you know, that is just the absolute bare minimum where even if it's a nightmare week, we get that done.

40:11 sort of having like a bit of a a base or a an established floor, I think is important because if you have no sort of agreement about what that is, then you could have a week where, you know, it's just chaos, no tracking, no training, and that's when people really start to get into trouble. >> Yeah, 100%. DY, if your program has to be fun for you to stick to it, you won't make it very far in competitive bodybuilding.

40:37 >> it depends on what fun is. Like, if someone's fun is bench press, squats, and deadlifts, like you can easily make that happen with bodybuilding. And I think a lot of good competitors have done it before. Nathan Wallace, for example, is it the most textbook bodybuilding program I would probably have? No, but is he a fantastic bodybuilder and did he make it work and enjoy it? Yes, he did. But it depends on I feel like what the fun is. If the fun is running 100 km a week, doing CrossFit, all this other stuff, it's like you're probably never going to make it far in competitive bodybuilding. And that's just as far as it's going to go.

41:09 Sorry, Lawrence. but like I think it there's a there's a point where you can make it actually work, and then I think you kind of cross that point where it's like I just don't think it's going to happen to be competitive. Like your key like a competitive bodybuilder, I think takes a certain level of sacrifice and acceptance of this is what it's going to take to get there. and a certain level of self-belief, I think in the work that you know you put in the work to get there compared to hey, I'm going to do five CrossFit sessions and I'm going to do one full body session a week and that's going to have to be a competitive bodybuilder cuz it's not. So, I think there's a level that you can make it fun, but I think if you're not really training like a bodybuilder, then I think you're probably going past that. I think the fundamentals need to be in place. You can jam some fun in the fundamentals, but I guess there's a point where it kind of doesn't work.

42:01 >> I get you. Jack, saying I have a slow metabolism is a nicer way of saying I ate more than I think I did. >> god, these questions. They're good questions. So, I would say no. I think I think in this most people who say that genuinely believe they have a slow metabolism. Maybe that's just me being being kind, but there I mean there certainly are people who probably do eat more than they should and and blame it on their metabolism or they or they look more too objectively at calorie calculators and they're like, "Oh, this calorie calculator online or ChatGPT said my maintenance would be this or my deficit would be this and I'm I'm gaining weight on it or maintaining." So, yeah, I'll pick the the higher ground here with my answer.

42:54 >> I get you. I get you. As as BK would say, the body is a logical series of systems. So, I often think when you know, when people say, "Oh, I have such a slow metabolism. I just can't lose weight." I often think like what's our input and our output? It has to be. You know, like there's obviously things that can affect that either side, but fundamentally >> Mhm. >> laws of thermodynamics There's nothing really that opposes that per se, so you know, fundamentally I think that's what occurs for most individuals.

43:24 Lawrence, my man, using bad sleep as an excuse for a bad session is just avoiding accountability for going to bed going to bed too late scrolling your phone. >> Yes, I definitely think we can we could all be better at that. But I think to piggyback off that point as well, the sort of like bad sleep equals bad training, I think is something that people nocebo themselves into all the time. You know, like people wake up and they want their Whoop score or their Oura Ring score to tell them how to feel that day. And they're not actually first assessing like how restful their own sleep was. Like I mean, I'm sure we've all had it where there was like a night where maybe you felt like you didn't have a a great sleep or you got to bed a bit later than expected and the next day you're like, "Oh, okay. Well, I actually feel fine." And you perform absolutely fine. So, I think you know, definitely be cautious if you're someone who uses some of these fitness trackers that give you like a a readiness score.

44:22 Just because you don't get a great score, it doesn't mean you have to deload that session. It doesn't mean you now need a week off because ultimately like these devices, they're not gospel. Like they're not going to be perfect at recording all these body metrics. They are very much an estimate as to what's going on. so yes, I do think people should probably try to, you know, put the phone down half an hour sooner so they can get some more sleep. But also, if you do have a poor sleep or you get a number on your, you know, Whoop readiness score that you're not happy with don't let that nocebo you into a bad day or a bad training session because, you know, you might actually be absolutely fine and you can still perform, you know, humans are very very resilient and if we couldn't perform just based on a few nights sleep, we probably wouldn't be where we are like as a human race. So, don't let that stop you.

45:12 And just crack a ghost and get on with it. Like do you see DY complaining? No, I don't think so. Seriously. >> Sleep debt? What sleep debt? Just crack a bloody, you know, yeah, man. You got to get your energy up and you're good. >> Lines of cocaine, crack a ghost, do an hour of check-ins and then be in bed 5 minutes after those hour of check-ins. Like it's like it's all mental. >> Make the weakness.

45:37 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. DY, if you can't afford a coach, you can't afford to compete. >> don't think that's necessarily the case. I think you can compete. I don't I don't think you're going to be as good as what you're going to be with a good knowledgeable coach, but unfortunately, you know, sometimes finances need to take the take the route. Like you can still compete. You just might not be as good as you know, a high-level bodybuilder being coached by DC, BK, Jack, you know, it's just probably not going to happen. So, yeah, you can compete, but you might be a participant. That's the That's the difference.

46:11 >> >> There's a difference between being competitive and being a participant. Shows need participants. That's what I'm going to say. Otherwise, we're not having any shows. So, crack on. >> For sure. All right, last one, Jack. Thrown under the bus. Most people who blame >> >> I feel like I finished on one that's that's like a very loaded gun. Most people who blame prep for their relationship with food has has disordered eating patterns long before they have a stepped up on stage.

46:41 >> No, I actually strongly disagree with that. I do think prep can bring out some a disordered mindset or disordered nature of food that even for people who have never had any sort of prior experiences with disordered eating and just because of the unprecedented sort of physiological position that you're put in and the and the corresponding sort of mental state around food as well. Like you're literally starving yourself for many months at a time and achieving incredibly lean levels of composition. So, and then you're in a a food environment of abundancy and the sort of intricacy of of food in relation to our relationships and culture and friendships and workplace environments. So, like it's it's a bit of a minefield, which is why going back to the previous point, why I do think a good coach in your corner while you are prepping is essential.

47:39 >> I'd even do like a little two-parter. I feel like a majority of the negative eating habits you would establish through prep could be mitigated by working with a coach for probably a year prior. I think like there's a vast difference between someone that jumps on for a 20-week prep and someone that's worked 1 and 1/2 years with that exact coach to hash out these issues. The difference is is night and day. so, I think a lot majority of them can be mitigated, but also agree with Jack there is like there's definitely situations where people have been able to eat completely normal and then they go through a prep and a lot of the the views they have on food are completely different. Can't have junk food, can't do this is like kind of flexibility cuz weight trends, you know, move differently when the and yeah, I think there's so many little things that, you know, actually play into someone's eating habits that would somewhat be be classified as disorderly.

48:30 >> Yeah, I'll quickly just claim like I still think for most people that having some disordered food tendencies before prep like will correspond to trouble afterwards, but I if I had to give it a black and white answer like I still think some competitors who could be completely breezy with their relationship with food can still struggle on the other side for sure. >> Yeah, absolutely. Great >> Great points, lads. Well, that basically wraps up another episode of the Bodybuilding Down Under Podcast. If you liked today's episode, remember to give us a five-star review and we'll certainly see you in the next episode.