0day Hacks NetworkChuck (OSINT)

0:00 never unfortunately have failed at finding somebody that wants to meet with what they believe is a little boy. This dude is 78 ft away from us. Dude, here's a guy that just said, "Hey." Oh my gosh. I am so confident. I could tell this dude, "My parents are down gambling. They won't be back till later. He would come here right now." The scary part of this is like this guy's probably at Defcon. He's 0.25 miles from us. Talking to what he believes to be somebody under 18. If if I told him to meet us, we could we could bring the whole camera crew right now and we can meet this guy. Now, would you say doing this work is dangerous? Yes. You're risking going to prison for trying to be a good person. I'm pretending to be a little boy. I have a guy's face. I don't have a username, but this likely with reverse facial recognition, I could probably identify this guy. So, how hard would it be to actually do that?

0:47 >> I could do that right now. Let's do it. >> Yeah. >> >> Hey, real quick before we get into this video, I want to give a bit of a disclaimer. There are going to be very sensitive topics in this video. Not safe for kids kind of things. We also are going to deal with and encounter a real predator in this video. These are really hard things, really hard topics, but it's things we have to discuss. But if you have little ones running around, might want to get them out of the room.

1:19 All right, Ryan. Dude, we've known each other for what, a few years now, but not like but just kind of in passing. Like I I s on social media, you see me on social media. I think we met each other for the first time in person at Defcon last year. >> Yeah. >> But it's just like a handshake and a hug and a picture and that was it. but we've never sat down and actually had a conversation together. So >> yeah, I'm looking forward to talking and yeah, I've been watching your YouTube for a very long time and it was it's cool to be working with you on something. It's it's a not a lot of people in the cyber security space like to work with me because of you know making beginner related content and >> which is crazy. I mean because like I I know you probably get stopped as much as me at Defcon and people say like thank you so much for putting out that kind of content because most people need it and I'm sure all the the the neck beards is what you said.

2:04 >> The neck beards the beards the Reddit neck beards. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're like they don't really do real content. Well, yeah. Because at that point you don't need it, right? like you you've already accelerated yourself so far where you can learn your on your own. It's the beginners who need our content >> and and >> there's more beginners than not. Yes. And that's why I respect what you do. you know, you're pushing through that with regardless of their opinion. We're both sitting here at Defcon full of the same people that you know might be taking pictures with us but talking negatively behind our back. Yeah, I don't care because 99% of the world, maybe more than that, is not not techsavvy. They're not into cyber security. They don't care about infosc or even know what the word infosc means.

2:41 So it's my goal is is it wasn't originally to even get into content creation but it it happened and that's the whole story of do you want to talk about in itself but I'm here and and creating content it actually happened by accident. So it was Sean Ryan who who asked me about like hey what do you carry every day called it the everyday carry. >> Yeah. >> And I'm trying to explain these gadgets to someone that I knows nothing about a computer. So when I started to do that, you know, he was interested obviously, but the only way that I could interest him in the gadgets was to make him understand what they were doing. And if I started getting into technical specifics about anything, he I would have lost him. He wouldn't have followup questions. There wouldn't have been any anything from it. So that's where it kind of all started with the cyber security stuff, but it all came from the child crime/counter human trafficking area, which has a story too within itself. So, I don't know where you want to go from here, but >> Well, I we're going to definitely target that area, but I think a lot of people Well, no, I think most people probably know who you are, but for like the very few people who don't, Ryan is the top hacker in the world.

3:48 no debate, he's number one. no. So, tell me. >> No, that's Chuck. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, actually, I'm the number one. Everyone knows it. >> Yeah, of course. >> >> so who are you? I mean, like, if you had to describe yourself, two sentences. No, no, five words. I'm just kidding. However you want to hi coup, >> who are you? so I'm Ryan Montgomery. I am a computer nerd, a business owner. I I I genuinely like to help people. whether that be through helping helping parents and educating them to, you know, keep their children safe or or going directly against the the people that are hurting them and and putting them in prison. and and you know that's my main focus as well as I own the cyber security company that protects people and their data and and then on the I do a lot of things I guess combined in one but I work with law enforcement and NOS's to identify predators as well as create tooling for them to identify them themselves and I train them in the process so and I'm the CTO of Sentinel Foundation which is a NGO that works in countering human trafficking violence against children as well so bunch of things at once Sorry, I know it's a lot of ammo, but that's what it is.

5:01 >> Dude, you do a lot. And I think the the thing that got me excited to talk to you about was the the combating child sex trafficking, and you said like, "Hey, you could do this. Like, I could actually learn how to do this, and that's what we're going to get into in this talk." but first, I saw that you prayed at the beginning of Sean Ryan's show, and I would love to do that right now if you don't mind. Absolutely.

5:21 >> All right, cool. Well, I'll pray over this real quick and just pray that God blesses this because I know he's going to use this in a powerful way. >> I hope so. All right. Father, I just thank you for this moment. Thank you for Ryan and just his heart and everything he does and everything he's been doing. Lord, you've had your hand on his life and gosh, just the the way you've worked and moved through him.

5:40 We're just so thankful, Lord. And I ask that you continue to do this, that you go before him, that you make his path straight, that you would guard his life, that you would protect him, God, give him peace, give him strength, and bless this conversation, Lord. lead us in this conversation to a place that will help millions. Lord, we know that you are in the middle of this. Holy Spirit, you're with us right now. Just guide our words and we pray that whatever comes from this will just be all from you. We thank you, Jesus, for everything you've done and what you're doing. In your name we pray.

6:12 Amen. >> Amen. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. >> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yes. I know you're you're a fairly new believer from what I >> for a couple years now, but I've been going to a church twice a week, non-denominational Christian. And the way it works at my church is just chapter chapter, verse verse by verse, and you know, whatever night of the week at night time is the is the old Old Testament and then every Sunday morning is is New Testament. So, it's a it's just literally chapter by chapter, whether that be a a chapter full of just names and places, which it can get pretty, you know, boring, but we we we literally do it chapter by chapter, verse by verse. But that's the way I've been learning and and having a a pastor that I can call literally at 2 2:00 in the morning. I'm like, "Hey man, I got this crazy thing that I'm thinking about and I I don't have an answer for it and I can't find one online. What do you what's your opinion?" and like this guy will pick up the phone and not just because I have an internet a following on the internet, but because my church has like 30 people in it.

7:09 >> So, it's a small church with a pastor that really cares and I and I really appreciate that. >> That's amazing, dude. Now, if you don't mind, could you share a bit about how you became a Christian? >> it's it's a >> I know it's probably a longer story. >> It's a very long story, but the shortest version of this that I can give you is I got sick with an unknown illness about like eight years ago. And I I you know I as I went to 11 11 or 12 different specific medical facilities, three different hospitals. I went to a bunch of specialists. One of them for my jaw. I have TMJ like my jaw doesn't open very wide.

7:43 >> I went to like all these specialists and they all kept telling me, "Hey, what whatever their specialty was was the reason I was having these symptoms, which >> you can't obviously I don't have all of these disorders, so it didn't make sense. Nobody could diagnose what was wrong with me." And it got to a point where because the symptoms were very severe like I couldn't I couldn't function. I couldn't really work. I couldn't do anything for months and >> wow.

8:07 >> Eventually one night I was up in my bedroom and you know I was living alone by but at that time in Florida and I was just like you know I I went to like I was a Catholic as a kid because my grandma and grandpa both worked in the arch dascese of Philadelphia and like I went to Catholic you know got my sacraments and all that stuff as a kid but didn't really pay any attention. I knew nothing about it. So, I thought in that moment while I'm sitting up there in my bedroom, you know, like I can't live like this anymore. That's the honest truth. I didn't want to. And I whatever reason, the first thing that came to mind was God. And that was a very uncommon alien thought for me. And I I started praying to a God that I knew nothing about. And and he didn't pop out of the ceiling and cure me.

8:56 But what ended up happening after that and and eventually a lot of those symptoms have sub it subsided to basically nothing. And you know it's a it's a long story as I said. >> Yeah. >> But never was diagnosed but then God you know put me in a different space. At that time I owned medical facilities for substance abuse and me mental health. So I owned three three mental health well the rehabs. I owned three rehabs and I wasn't able to function and work at that time. So, I I ended up selling them for for practically nothing.

9:28 because I wanted to be out of the industry and there was a thing with the business partner. That's a whole story, too. >> Oh, yeah. and >> and you know, God put me in a in a place where I had to figure it out, you know, like I didn't come from a bunch of money or anything like that. I didn't have anything to fall back on. It was like, here we go. I have I just sold my business for like nothing. I have all these expensive things and bills. What am I going to do? I didn't panic at all.

9:53 And and I ended up in this perfect situation to be honest with you, Chuck. I I I was using an electronic medical records platform. It was for the rehabs. That platform came in to do a demo and they paid $40,000 for a pen test and they didn't know that I was the owner cuz I was super young and I looked like I was an employee there. And I was like, "Hey, do you mind if I poke around in here just, you know, and then they told me about that pen test?" So by the time they get back and this is all this is another how I got the gods.

10:22 the I'm you know poking around this this electronic medical record platform called Zen Charts actually. And I I find a couple vulnerabilities. One of which I defaced the the support.zencharts.com subdomain. I called them before they even got back to their office after the demo. They're defaced with a couple of different vulnerabilities and they were super impressed, you know, and they wanted to hire me as a consultant to to help them with their security. I did that for a couple months while still owning the the rehab facility.

10:52 >> Now, real quick, when you say deface, what does that mean? >> Like it was like my face like I replaced the page support.zen charts. Instead of it being a support page, it was just a picture of my face. >> That's great. >> Yeah. And and they, you know, they they just paid 40,000 for a pentest, so they were super excited that, you know, to work together, so they didn't have that problem again, especially with sensitive medical data. Right. So time goes by. they I stopped being a consultant for them after a while. Ran the rehab for a while. and then after I sold it, I just thought to myself, you know, I really like this one guy, one of my business partners. his name is Rick. I stayed in touch with him over the years, but just like quick conversations, you know, like, "Hey, what's up, man? How you been?" and and nothing more than that. Out of nowhere, I get this idea sitting alone in my house. and I'm like, "I wonder, you know, what their office looks like, you know?" So, I hit up Rick. Rick invites me over to his office. I hang out there for the day. I remember actually cracked their their Wi-Fi handshake the first day. And I got something cool to show you on that, too.

11:55 But, I cracked their Wi-Fi handshake and then, we were just having fun and they, you know, I just kept coming back and back and back to this office and still no game plan other than I'm going to start a marketing company because that's what I started with as a kid and affiliate marketing and spamming, you know, have tattooed here. it that was that was, you know, what I did prior to >> What have you not done? Oh my gosh.

12:17 >> I mean, I've tried everything, man. So, I I've been started hanging out there more often and then there's so much to the story of a Zen charge get sued for $30 million and then like that was going to bankrupt everybody involved. Not I I wasn't a partner or anything and involved at that time. I get involved. we don't have a cyber security company yet. I'm about to start a marketing company. And then they're like, "Hey, can you, you know, I'm sorry, Rick says, "You want to set up a desk in my office?" So, we get one of those plastic foldable desks, set it up in his office for me to start my own company while they run Zen Charts out of their office. And I still have the picture of it. that that $30 million lawsuit by miracle, godsend, new owners come into the company that sued because they they lost the lawsuit.

13:04 new owners came in, reduced the price down to something a lot more manageable and then out of nowhere a company comes in and scoops it up for eight figures and and you know pays off that you know judgment from the lawsuit and also they took care of me when they didn't have to. You know they I wasn't a partner for the entirety of this medical record system. So like that was obviously a miracle like the odds of that happening are zero 0000% but I don't even think it can happen. I think it's just a miracle.

13:30 >> So what would you say they took care of you? Was that me >> financially? >> So they like they came in and they gave you some good money. >> Wow. They included me in the the the sale of the company when you know I I just because I was around every day and and part of like the family you know it's just kind of how it happened but I didn't expect that from them. >> so from that transaction we start a cyber security company pentester.com.

13:53 If you I don't know if you checked it out but I'll show it to you. I have. Yeah. >> Awesome. You know, we started that with, you know, the idea in mind of using some of the the you know, OSENT related abilities that I had and then web web scanning is a whole separate thing. But more importantly for this, some of those abilities to identify people's digital footprint and see what attack surface they had recon wise for their businesses. So, we had two different ideas. So, we originally launched a business plan. Then, we had a consumer product and that was all because of internet traffic. you know, we we realized that consumer demand was higher than business. So, we ended up building both. So, that thing blows up and I'm like still at this point not going to church though. So, I know I know a long story that I'm it's longer than this.

14:36 That's >> No, no, this is great. And we may have to unpack that at some point, but this is fine. And also, I want to point out that a large part of your story is also on Sean Ryan, maybe Tucker Carlson. So, I can we can point people there. We not going down that road right now. >> I'll skip a bunch of stuff. So basically we started the cyber security company and and then you know we I I started I'm I'm catching predators privately though and they have nothing to do with it like none of my partners it's me by myself at that time helping a couple vigilante predator catchers at the time identify people that they were chatting with so when they went to meet up with them they would know what their name was or where they worked or what their wife's name was or who their you know any any personal details about them that I could find and nobody else they didn't at least it was these predator catchers, you know. So, I was offering that as a free service for many years and I I I met this guy who is named Scrappy or Dustin Lampro. He's a he's a professional MMA fighter and he start you know he's I'm telling him about like what I'm doing with the you know Osen slash how these predator catchers confront them in real life and expose them to their communities and all this stuff. And he was all about it. So him and I him and I both start working on this together. And he is goes to church, you know, twice a week as well. And he wasn't like pushing the Bible on me or anything like that.

16:00 but he was like just telling me how chill his church was. So I one of the one of the days I was just like, "Yeah, man. I'll go with you." So I went and I genuinely as as corny as this may sound to some people watching like when I went to that church I could feel whether it be the Holy Spirit whether it be something something came over me that made me feel a way that I didn't feel even with if you see my story on other things with drugs with anything. I mean, I genuinely felt like something changed in me in a single visit to church, which just didn't make a ton of sense to me at the time, you know? I didn't even really fully I didn't even know what the meaning of Easter was. Chuck, I had no idea like that. That's how much I did not know about God. It wasn't that I didn't care or I was rejecting him. I just didn't know or or or like put much effort into it. You know, it's wasn't a thing until it became a thing and I realized that God wanted to use me to, you know, to help children. number one, educate parents. Number two, and now from what it really seems in the past few years, help beginners get into cyber security because that, you know, even though it was not my intention, it is it is what I've been doing and I'm I'm super proud of it to be honest with you. And I I don't think any of that would have happened. And if you know anything about my story, going from, you know, not the most rich area in the world, being a heroin addict, going to jail, owning rehabs, from not even having any money, all the marketing companies and spamming and legal trouble and hacking and all that stuff before that to owning a very successful software company and working with, you know, and sidebyside with federal law enforcement domestically, internationally, to save children and educate parents and get people into something that I'm, you know, that I love so much, cyber for security. Like what? Who else could do something like that other than God, you know?

17:44 >> Yeah. >> It's so I just am beyond blessed and grateful and and yeah, that's why I go to church. That's why I believe in God. And if anyone wants to know the full story, watch a different podcast. It's a lot longer or five hour. There's some five hour ones out there. You can hear the whole story. But yeah. Yeah. I love God. >> Same. Same. I It's amazing to hear like it's also like, you know, we're here at Defcon, right? And I I've been praying at the end of my videos and it's been so cool to have people come up to me, which you wouldn't expect at Defcon.

18:15 I didn't expect it, and be like, "Hey, the prayers at the end of your videos are like huge for me." And I didn't realize how many Christians there were in our really. It's Yeah. And I appreciate you being so vocal about your faith. And I think a lot of people in this community, you know, they they seem to think that like if you're intelligent and you're in it, then you can't believe in God. That's that's for people who are dumb, right? Agreed. That's not that's not the case. And there's so there's such a large community in in the inside the emphasize community that arc is I love God. So, thank you for being vocal about what you do.

18:45 >> Thank you. Likewise. Likewise. And and as before we go into Osen, I I know one of your emails has Jesus's name in it. I won't say the whole thing. >> Okay. So, that that's actually something we're going to explore because I asked you to teach me how to do OSENT. I I want to learn how we can combat and battle sex predators, child sex predators. And part of that is you actually you did it on me. Yeah. You you attacked me essentially and you and you told me you had a ton of information on me. Oh yeah.

19:11 >> We'll get to that here in a moment. hey, real quick before we go any further, let's take a moment 60 seconds and breathe because what Ryan's talking about is why I take my own digital security seriously. We're discussing people who know how to exploit the internet better than most of us ever will. And the truth is most of us are walking around and we are completely unprotected. That's why I use NordVPN and I've used it for a long time. But I know what you're thinking, Chuck, NordVPN is just a VPN. It's not. It's a lot more than a VPN now. They've got this nextgen antivirus that's running in the background constantly. It's blocking malware. It's flagging fake sites. It's stopping fishing links before they ever reach your device. And hey, that's kind of what we're discussing today right now. All those tactics. Let me tell you, a lot of the stuff it lands on the dark web. All your stuff will just end up there. It's going to happen. Like I know right now my stuff is on the dark web.

19:57 You know how I know? Because NordVPN told me. and it'll tell you the moment that your personal data, your emails, your credentials, passwords, they'll let you know. And the thing here to pay attention to is they let you know before the damage is done. Now, likely, if you're listening to this, it's probably like you're probably already there. Like, you have stuff on the dark web. Stop. Go fix it now. And it's simple. They're going to give you one app. It's one subscription. You'll you can protect 10 devices. So, go to nordvpn.com/networkchuck.

20:20 That's nordvpn.com/networkchuck. And use code networkchuck at checkout for an exclusive deal. Also, four extra months free. That's completely risk-f free with NordVPN's 30-day money back guarantee. Okay, Ryan, back to you. But first, I want to hear like how did you actually first start getting into this? And and maybe and if it's not too long, how did you start hacking? Cuz I think hacking is getting the story and then of course those hacking skills bring you to where you are now with with being able to attack these people.

20:49 >> And then I think you already kind of covered, but like heart of your faith is what drove you to be even more involved in this. Yeah, >> it sounds like you were already doing this before. >> I was doing it before I went to church, but I realized that it was God's plan for me by going to church. And it's because statistically speaking, and I mean this the AI overlords even did the math on this. It's just the things that have happened in my life, which I'm not even going into all the details right now, just mathematically are impossible.

21:18 I'm not that lucky. I promise you. You know, there's something bigger than man and it's God. And and I'm not just saying that because I'm guessing or I want to hope that there's one. genuinely know there's one. >> Yeah. Someone could look at your life and go, "Oh, no. Coincidence, coincidence, coincidence." But like, no, God has his hand on your life and he's been guiding you, and you've been you've been obedient. You've been stepping into these things. So, I'm very proud of you for doing that. but it's also cool to just like feel God moving through you and doing things like this. I experienced very similar things. Like, this is my pastor, right? He my Yeah, he's >> he comes with me to Defcon. He's he's my sales guy. But like, yeah. it's it's amazing to just be used by God and to be in line with what he wants. And I'm not saying like everyone's gonna have just success and glory and fame and all that, but like >> that that part might have got lucky with God, but I think God's got a plan for me. Not everything's going to be great.

22:06 You know, there if if I have a bad year or a bad 10 years, I'm not going to be mad at God for it. You know, I just the trajectory he's put me on now has has look looked like a lot of success. But don't get me wrong, it isn't all all, you know, cotton candy and rainbows. You know, it's there's a there's there's a lot of negatives that come with this life as well when you're dealing with the darkest people in the world, you know.

22:28 >> Yeah. >> So, there's I think that God put me in the position that I'm in because he knew I could handle it. >> Exactly. And I and that's that's completely accurate. So, walk me through this. So, so you're a hacker, but how did you start becoming a hacker? Like, did you actually just walk me through tell me how it happened? without cuz that like I said that's a long story too but the the simple one is n I was 9 years old.

22:51 >> my grandpa worked at a cemetery for the Catholic church. he brought home a desktop computer and I had no idea what it was as a 9-year-old and there was a floppy floppy disc logo on the front of the the desktop and I didn't know what a floppy disc was which yeah tattooed hack the planet on my arm now but in a floppy disc but >> I saw that and then one of the AOL trials I don't know if you remember like the AOL trials come in the mail >> one of those came in the mail and I saw that it was the same shape as the little icon on that on that computer. So I took that as a little boy and plugged it in, you know, just stuck it inside the desktop and I saw >> How old were you at that point?

23:32 >> Nine. >> Nine. Okay. >> So I saw that the triangle, the AOL triangle, it came from real life, physical life onto a screen and it blew my mind like I wanted to know how that happened. How did how did something go from the physical world to the digital world and that I could trolled, you know? And I remember that being my first interest in a computer and then from there I joined some some AOL chat rooms and and IRC chats and thought that you know I got went down a whole phone freaking slash you know pay phone hacking life and got into the you know just a lot Phone losers of America. I was friends with some pe old very old people in this you know in this space. and but shout out to Lucky and all the all those guys, Brad and I I'll I'll stop. But yeah, so phone preking was where where like I actually was able to put some of the stuff into practice and and learn a little bit about making something do what it wasn't intended to do in the first place, whether it be via phone or computer didn't matter to me. those same chat rooms had some guys, one of them being YT Cracker, the the nerdcore rapper I was telling you about, who who didn't know that I was a little boy, you know, he he just knew that I was an ambitious person that was asking a ton of questions and and he him as long as I'm sorry, him as well as many others took the time to to teach me things like AOL punters and scrollers and if you remember them like you know things scrolling down the screen going crazy and crashing people's, you know, AOL >> I'm sorry, AIM chat clients, >> all that stuff. You know, I was I it was mind-blowing for me as a kid and have feeling, you know, that I had that that ability or power to do it was was cool.

25:14 >> And so, he became a mentor for you. >> Oh, yeah. And I I was with him last night and and it's, you know, he was with his kid and he's with his wife and it's like it just feels so cool for how things have came all the way around now. I can't say what specific job he works at Amazon, but he has a very good job making some ridiculous money. And he he's just he's a huge part of of my childhood in not the bad parts, the good parts. And and him and I did a lot of awesome stuff together. and and then circled back around later in life to now where we we don't work directly together, but we we collaborate on a lot of things technically.

25:50 >> so that's how I got into hacking. But the the the child safety stuff, long story short on this as well, is I got a text message from my friend's wife wife and you you may have heard this story from anything you've ever seen from me, but she sent me that my friend's wife sent me a text that had a picture of a child in a bathtub and the title of the post said they have no idea what's going to happen to them. And then underneath of that post, there were a bunch of people that were part of this forum that were saying what they were going to do. this person's child. And I've never seen anything like that before in my life. It was a kid in the bathtub with their back facing the camera so you could tell they were nude.

26:30 And I just thought to myself like, you know, what parent could do that? You know, I was very unfamiliar with this topic at that time. So there was that screenshot as well as a couple other ones that were disgusting that I just I I I just remember I was out with some people. I left immediately. Something in my brain was like, I'm going to do something about this. They sent it to me because I, you know, I'm the hacker guy that can do anything on a computer.

26:51 That's what people think. like, of course, I could do something about that's that's the way that they probably were thinking at the time. >> And they were right. >> They were right in this case. So, I went back to my house and my goal was if I find no vulnerabilities in this form because I don't want to dig around too deep and see something I don't I can't unsee or get in trouble for it. but like my goal was to just DDoS the site to keep it offline, meaning overwhelm it with traffic and and keep it down and and just do my part. That that was it. Something really simple like any script kitty could do. I was it I got a little bit lucky here and my attorney said I can't go into the technical specifics but I can explain and this will make sense to you. I think they were using a a forum called Zen4ro and they were using a nulled theme on Zenorro and that nulled theme was backdoor. So from that moment and where I discovered this backdoor I was able to exfiltrate their database as well as have a full shell on their server which included four backups from previous websites that were ran by these same people. And the one of them was he was the one that was hosting the server for he never was arrested or or you know anything for being involved in this in any way. But the other guy that the main guy running the site was named Nathaniel Larson or Nathan Larson and he was a politician in Virginia who ended up later on being which I'm skipping this whole story, but he ended up getting arrested 6 months later after I found all this stuff with a 12-year-old in Denver, Colorado that he raped and kidnapped. And the guy went to prison according to the news starved himself to death, which how did you know to to starve yourself to death in a prison and nobody try to force food down your throat? It's very rare. I it's pretty I'm pretty confident that somebody, you know, made made that starvation happen for him. and I'm not mad about it personally, but he he was the owner of the website, but at that time there were 7,000 other users to investigate.

28:57 so I reached out to law enforcement. I reached out to all all of the media that I possibly could. Every reporter I spoke to was willing to run the story. They all were excited about it. But when it got to legal, none of them were willing to run it. So my rebuttal was, "Hey, they just run the story without any of the material that I obtained from any illegal activity of mine, like you know, let's say hacking their server, whatever you want to call it." they they still wouldn't run the story even without including that material. I just wanted parents to know the site existed on the clear web. Like you could go to this website and and you could view this content and there were children on there selling themselves to grown adults. You know, it was it was that as well as adults doing the same thing in reverse. So like I just wanted people to know it existed.

29:43 That's it. and I knew who ran the thing so I wanted them arrested. So I did I reported to everybody that I possibly could. Nobody did anything. So that is why I was motivated to work with these vigilante predator catchers because nothing was done about this website and kids were getting hurt. So that skips me back to the story with the MMA fighter. >> now by the way it it had to feel so like when you first encountered this, you got sent that picture, you found the website. I mean you're you're probably enraged by this. Like what the heck is going on? But also had to feel pretty cool that you actually had the the skills and the tools set to do something about it.

30:18 >> Absolutely. Yeah. I felt great to have the ability to, you know, to act cuz I, this is where I felt at the time. I remember very specifically how it felt when I had all of these emails, all these usernames, all this information about these users. I had, you know, and then I thought to it myself at that time like I this is important fact not to download any media from the server. So, you know, when I was using MySQL dump to dump the database, I was making sure all of the they're they're called block quotes that include images, attachments, files, videos, I didn't get any of that. So, everything I have was text. I wanted to make sure that, you know, because my full belief at the time was that the feds or somebody was going to show up at my door, ask for my information, and I had everything in notes with timestamps, with every file I touched, with every person involved, everything that I could hand them on a on a golden silver platter or whatever you want to call it.

31:09 >> And you thought they were all going to come out like, "Oh, thank you, Ryan." Like, we're ready to go and they're going to do something about it. >> Even without a thank you, Chuck, like, just just do something about it. But nobody nobody showed up, you know? >> That's kind of >> Yeah. So, you know, eventually after he gets arrested, that infuriated me that that he had to hurt a child. And remember, there's still 7,000 other users here that are not arrested at this point. A child had to get hurt for this guy to get caught. I had everything. I reported to everybody, but nobody got back to me. So, then I'm sitting with in a garage with this MMA fighter, and I go on one of those teen chat sites to show him exactly how bad this problem is. And I just go in there with the username Ashley 13 female New Jersey. just 13/f NJ and I just said hi which I could do right now and you would see you know you would see the exact result unfortunately people wanting to meet with a child on the internet.

32:01 >> so how hard would it be to actually do that? >> I could do that right now. >> Let's do it. >> Yeah. So I would just Google >> cuz I'm genuinely curious how easy that is right now. >> I'm just going to click the first one on Google guest login. Let's say just make it something a little different. Change it to female here.

32:32 Yeah. And I'll set it to guess 2000. It's hard to remember what year we have to put it for. >> Yeah. Well, they're not going to be able to see it anyways. >> Oh, they Oh, yeah. That's it. Well, >> username's not valid. Hold on. And they don't want underscores or something. >> Probably not. This is the unfortunate part is this can work on any site. So I haven't used this one personally, but chat disabled. Why?

33:02 >> Well, let's see. This person's 14, but this is a teen chat, so there shouldn't be teens in here. That makes sense, >> right? Right. >> I don't know why my chat is disabled. See, >> we can try a different chat if you want. >> Okay, let's try a different one. I don't know why the chat's disabled. >> Yeah, and these are sites that like, you know, a teen who doesn't know any better who's like just wanted to chat. They might Google like what you're just doing.

33:28 >> Yeah, I just type teen chat and hit enter. this looks like the same thing, but we'll see. >> It's going to set the birthday to something older, I guess, or or younger, I guess, right? So, we'll do 2010. That'll make me 16. And chat disabled for some reason. >> Huh. That's weird.

33:59 >> I think they probably just have to manually approve me. >> Let's see. >> I guess we can give it a second. We can keep keep going and maybe see what happens. But there's some other things I could show you too, like the the hookup apps that I work with law enforcement with all the time. Those are horrible as well. but it depends on how how graphic you want to get on the channel because, you know, YouTube is strict as some of this.

34:23 >> Yeah. I mean, we can we can deal with that in post publish, I think. Yeah. what I want to illustrate in this video cuz like for me just talking with you and knowing how big a problem this is like makes me pissed off and and feel and being at Defcon like we have a but how many people like 42,000 people >> is that what it is this year >> I think it is I think it is a lot of people a lot of skills a lot of people who are incredibly talented and we can just like what you did we can do something about it but we got to know with how big a problem how bad it is >> it's a very significant problem and there's a study that you can look into in Australia right Now they I guess they put out an anonymous survey.

35:01 and Australia is a lot smaller than the United States. And if people don't know, United States has the worst problem with the consumption of child sexual abuse material or CISAM. I don't like to use the word child pornography because I pornography in my opinion implies consent. But you know I think Australia so so it's it's just a way smaller country, right? So, they did this this anonymous survey and one in five guys has openly admitted to thinking about a sexual thing with a child. and one in 10 have acted on it, but are willing to admit it. That's a ridiculous statistic. That's a high number for a small country like Australia that doesn't have the worst problem in the world like we do. So, what are the actual numbers here? You know, that that's what I'd really like to know. I mean, that study is publicly accessible. anybody can look that up.

35:49 And it's it's it's alarming and and it's so fast. I mean, if you watch any of my other podcasts, you'll see how quickly these people just pop right out willing to talk to a child. And and people might think, "Oh, it doesn't happen where I live." it doesn't happen. You know, I live in a a nice neighborhood and my kid goes to a private school or trust me, it happens everywhere. It doesn't matter what the person looks like. Doesn't matter you know it doesn't matter what you know what you think or you know about somebody. I wouldn't trust anyone around my kids alone. You know especially when they're really young. I mean there at some point they're going to need to be alone. But you know when they're really young they're not leaving my side with the information that I have. And unless somebody can change my mind, which I doubt's going to happen, the world is a pretty messed up place at the moment.

36:35 >> Yeah. I I've heard too many horror stories to like let my kids be alone with someone I don't really really know or trust. And what do you think about like a question for you is like what do you think about sleepover parties for example? >> Dude, very few and far between. Like we they have to be a certain age. Like I have six daughters so I I worry. Yeah. So I'm very cognizant of that. >> So yeah big six daughters and any sons are all daughters?

36:57 >> All daughters. >> Wow. >> I know. I know. It wasn't for lack of trying. But yeah, six daughters. That's awesome. >> Three to 15. So we have every age range, every every moment in life, you know, every stage of life. And for us, we have to we have to know the parents very well. We have to know the family very well. They sleep over at their friends houses, the two older, but like they're people that go to our church and we know them very very well. So yeah. Yeah. So it's Yeah. I mean, at some point I'll have a child and I'll know what that feels like, but as of right now, I wouldn't even trust people that I think I trust. It's like I I don't want want to be in a situation like this is I'll give you one weird one. So like let's say I have a good friend, right? And I'm with that good friend and I'm like, "Hey, can you watch, you know, Jane Doe, my king, right?" and then Jane Doe says, "Well, he did this when he was changing my diaper." But there's nothing nefarious about it. And now I have that thought in my head forever about that person because I'm a little tainted from what I do, you know. But is it that being, you know, jaded or obtained from what I'm doing or is it a reality? I don't know, you know. So, I'll find out when I find out. But I definitely don't want to be a helicopter parent and I don't want to be I don't want to be extreme, but it's it's easy for me to end up as an extreme parent or extreme person in the way that I'm thinking because of the stuff that I deal with every day. It's and then when you hear the how significant the problem is and you see it with your own eyes. It's not just like a conspiracy that >> you realize like, yeah, maybe I should keep my kids close to me, you know?

38:30 >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you're being overly cautious. So, anyone watching this right now like be as cautious as he's saying. I mean, I don't think you can be too cautious. cuz it you're about to find out how bad it is. So, what how I can I can go on a different site. Yeah. I the team chat once just says chat disabled. It's on the screen recording, but >> this site is ex I think if you guys are going to edit edit the name of this site out cuz anyone that knows it knows it.

39:00 But >> it's a very dangerous site for kids because it's it's made for hookups. It's a it's a gay dating site. but it's specifically made for hookups and geollocating where the people are at, right? So, you would hit use anonymously. You don't even need to make an account here. So, you can use anonymously. You just pick a year that you were born. As long as you're over 18, it lets you write in. >> So, I'll just do this.

39:27 Ask me if I'm real. I guess I got to use a jock strap to a capture. >> That's coming in slowly, but it's coming. >> Wow. >> It's a good capture. >> That's a pretty advanced capture for a site like this. Yeah, it's actually a real pain for the my automated tooling cuz each one of those is a different request each each layer. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> What? >> Yeah. So, it's a hard capture to bypass.

39:53 All right. So, this is a bunch of naked men. all within this is where we're at right now. So, dude, and this is this is a hookup gay app. Whether you know I don't personally agree with this per being promiscuous like this. but I this is extremely dangerous and I'll show you why. So, I don't have a profile photo yet. I have an anonymous account. this whole page is going to have to get blurred for sure.

40:21 >> Oh, yeah. >> but let me throw a profile picture up that Let me send it to myself. Sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, >> I'm going to use a decoy picture. A picture where it's very clear that I'm young. >> So, that's obviously >> not adult. Very young. Very. >> So, we'll save that to my desktop. >> Is that you? Like an AI? Yeah, that's mainly just decoy photo. So now I'm going to use that decoy photo.

40:46 Let's throw it here. And reminding again, I have an anonymous profile here. This is I I didn't register for anything. I just clicked use anonymously. I clicked a random age. >> no verification or anything. >> No verification whatsoever. And it's geoloccated us to, you know, to where we're at. It knows what hotel we're in right now. >> these are all the people around us. There's quite a few. As you see, there's me. And, if I zoom in, there's people in this actual hotel with us right now.

41:21 >> Oh my god. >> So, these are people we could we could we could technically message them if we wanted to, but you that's, you know, let's say you were law enforcement, you were being a decoy right now. You'd wait for them to message you. This dude is 78t away from us, dude. so here's a guy that just said, "Hey." >> Oh my gosh. >> Hey, what's Oh, and he might ask the age. We'll see. Sorry, not used to this keyboard yet.

41:51 And this guy is 585 pound submissive bottom. So, let's see. you know, he may or may not be interested, but I this website is so, you know, wild that it's very rare that somebody even cares how old you are. They'll just meet you like if I said in the public chat rather than a private chat, meet me in the bathroom at this place that we're specifically at. I'm on this floor next to this slot machine or whatever you said. I guarantee you they would like multiple of these guys would come to meet publicly in the restaurant. That's how insane this site is. Dude, what the heck?

42:28 >> It's just a and hold it. There's another app called Grinder if you've never heard of it. It's a hookup app that this one is showing you on a map. Grinder is more of like here's a bunch of pictures that guys you know, meet up and then when you're done with the chat, you can delete it. Deletes on both ends and that's it. That's you know, you it was just a sexual encounter and that's it. This one is a similar situation, but it shows you the the the predator or the person that's trying to meet with you exactly where you're standing. And if you walk down the street, you know, so does your icon.

43:00 >> That is so crazy. How did you discover the site? >> I was sent it by somebody in the space. >> So, here's somebody that just sent their penis to what they, you know, looks like a little boy. >> Hey, how old are you? Oh, he's 29. So, I don't have to ask that. Hey, you okay with thunder? So, let's see what he says to that. I mean, I'm going I'm going a little fast, so >> yeah, I mean, he might get suspicious at this point, but >> but he did see a picture like this and send a penis to it. So, >> dude, oh my gosh.

43:36 >> Let's see what he says with that. So, we're just seeing like how instantly you can >> Oh, this show how depraved the world is right now and how easily accessible it is. >> Oh, it's just within seconds and and you can't get banned because, you know, oh, look, look, he said, "Yeah, hey, you okay with under?" Yes. I got a picture sent to what he now knows is an under 18 person. and and oh, he said, "Wait, under what?" So, hold on. May maybe not. You might have some hope in the world. Let's see. Yeah.

44:18 We're going to have to blur this whole thing out anyway. But >> yeah. Yeah. this is genuinely terrifying though. >> Yeah. And there'll be a bunch of messages that will come in from the picture without any username, without anything. And law enforcement has been using this. Here we go. Look. So he said, "Wait under what?" I said, "You know what I mean. Nice check." He said, "Thanks. Do you have any?" And he's now stall. He's he pretending like he doesn't know. But I will send them, but can you text me off site? Don't order be banned. So he's going even more clarification here. And then I'll throw a phone number in here that he can text.

45:06 >> Dude, this is insane. >> Yeah. The scary part of this is like this guy's probably at our at Defcon. >> Yeah. >> You know, he's he's right He's right there. He's down the street. >> He's 0.25 miles from us, you know, but he's probably at Defcon talking to what he believes to be somebody under 18, sending naked photos. And if I told him to meet us, we could we could bring the whole camera crew right now and we can meet this guy. But like then we were doing vigilante justice. We shouldn't do that, >> right? So we're going to touch on that.

45:37 >> Yeah. Well, explain why that's a bad idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it was something you got into, but you soon realized that it wasn't as effective as you wanted to be. >> Oh, is he responding? >> He said, "How old are you?" Under you can text me. Yeah. So, we'll see. Let's see. Let's see if he bans, blocks, deletes, or text because there's any anything could happen at this point. Okay. He said, "Sorry, not for me." So, maybe not. But I've seen this happen and then I've seen a text message come anyway from the person cuz look, see, he deleted the messages.

46:14 >> Oh, so he he got suspicious probably. >> But it's either suspicious or he actually is just trying to meet up with a guy. So, there's there's you know that You looked really young, though. Extremely young. >> Yeah, it's a You can obviously show that part of the in the video of this base. It's pretty obvious that's not an 18-year-old boy, but >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's it saying it to him. He probably got a little suspicious.

46:38 >> So, I'll keep I'll keep it open because I want to I want I'll show you how many people actually send messages. >> So, that illustrates just how how quickly you can demonstrate the risk. but like looking at it from like a more of a macro perspective on how dangerous this stuff is. >> Mhm. >> what's the current state like cuz I I I want to come at it from an angle of pe people need to get involved because it's it's a huge problem.

47:02 >> But how big of a problem is it? >> It's a significant problem and and you know obviously we're doing a quick 20 minute test of like just random Google. >> Yeah. I randomly asked you to do that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, we if we sat here for an hour, like we would not I I'm so I I put my life on it that we would have multiple people that are willing to meet up with what they believe to be a minor.

47:23 it's just it's that unfortunate. So, it's a significant problem to answer your question. And and and I want to show you exactly why, but we you just seen a little piece of it, but you know, it's hard to determine what this guy can't even though I look like a 10-year-old in this picture can't assume that, you know, the guy doesn't think I just look like an 18-year-old, you know. But >> I don't I think the dude's a weirdo either way. But >> And you started doing this cuz you got pissed off because law enforcement wasn't doing anything about what you're doing. Even Even reporters wouldn't report on what you found.

47:53 >> Exactly. So no one not nothing. There was zero publications, zero arrests, zero anything. And that was going through an attorney, going through a task force, going through everybody that I possibly could, online tip lines, you name it, I tried it. so I took it into my own hands and I started decoying similarly to what you just saw there, but on other sites and, sending just all decoy photos of my own face. Like a lot of the predators will say like, "Hey, send a picture with two fingers up or three fingers up or with a TV behind you like so they can confirm you're not fake." Which nowadays with AI, you can make all kinds of stuff. But >> it especially, you know, seven years ago when I started and then three plus years ago, I think it is with the MMA fighter wasn't really a thing three plus years ago to make those images. So, I was decoying and then we started hiring decoys and and they would pretend to be miners for us and then when a guy was ready to meet up, they would say, "Hey, he's going to meet us at this specific spot." We would show up there with the camera. I would have already done the investigation on them and figure out who they were. And Dustin would would be like the front man. Like he would stand, you know, in front of the camera. I'd hold the camera and u and Dustin would read off the iPad the chat logs as well as like, "Hey, so you would be there with them in person."

49:10 >> Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. So there's videos you can still find like 561 PCs and even his channel. you can watch the videos, you'll hear my voice from behind the camera, but he was like the main guy. I just wanted to do something, you know? I wanted to be involved. >> And in those moments like were you were you nervous? Scared? >> Probably angry is the word for Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't scared. I mean I know that cuz you know those guys are volatile. They they unfortunately occur police. They they kill themselves. So if they're willing to kill themselves, they're willing to kill you. It it really isn't a thought of mine in the moment because it's do what you I hate them that much. I think I think it's that much. so there's Yeah. So no, I've never been as scared in the even now with working with way more dangerous people in other countries and stuff like that. It's if if something god forbid did happen to me. I I I'm okay with it.

50:01 You know, I've come to terms that if I go out doing what I'm doing, it's I I've made the impact that I wanted to make. and and I died for a cause I believed in truly. So yeah, it's not it's not a fear thing. It's more of just try to calculate my risk and don't do anything stupid. >> Yeah. Now, would you say doing this work is dangerous? >> Yes. And I don't recommend that anyone does vigilante work. Work >> vigilante. Okay.

50:23 >> Yeah. Working with law enforcement, working with nonprofits or NOS's. I highly recommend and I would love to talk to you more about that. How how to get you involved as well as your followers or anybody that wants to help. It needs We need it. We need the help. >> Yeah. And that's and that's honestly the goal of this video. Like I want to get involved and actually start doing this. You I want to first learn the skills and then use those skills to actually do this. So that that's why we're talking here. But you got to learn to do it the right way.

50:50 >> I got another one another fish on the line here. But this dude, so I Oh, look. Here we go. He said, "Yes, you trade nudes. He's okay with me being younger." So I said, he sent the message first. She said, "What you looking for?" I said, "Just someone to meet up with." I'm at the the name of the place we're at now. >> How old are you and are you okay with younger? He said, "Yes, you trade nudes." Sends a picture of himself and says that he's 20 years old and this is somebody that is 2.5 miles from us right now.

51:23 >> Holy crap. >> That's willing to come meet with a little boy. >> Dude, that is so crazy. Now, how how likely is that his actual image, do you think? I mean, this looks real to me, but I Yeah, because it's just not there's nothing significant about it, but I mean, if I like I am so confident I could tell this dude, come to this this room, he would come and knock on the door right now. No doubt.

51:44 If I was like, "My parents are down gambling. They won't be back till later." He would come here right now. >> But, you know, it's I can't work working with the people I work with, I can't do this stuff unless we, you know, unless we had law enforcement decoying like from the beginning. Like what I did there is the step before things go too far and I could destroy a case. >> in this case I you know I would report this profile URL, let them know this guy is soliciting a minor on this app sending photos requesting that he's breaking all kinds of laws. Even if he doesn't meet up, he's breaking federal law right now. So, this is just unfortunately repeatable on every single website, Instagram, Snapchat, Tik Tok, all the dating apps, Grinder, not just because it's gay. I'm doing it because like the gay community, I'm doing it because it's quick and easy to show an example. But this is on all platforms and the the threat is just as imminent and severe and quick as you just saw. Now, you know, we're in Vegas right now and we're also here doing a very large conference with an eclectic group of people. Would it be the same thing anywhere you go?

52:51 >> Anywhere you go. Yeah. So, I I've spoken about this in every single country that that I've been in. I've used this app as my example. I've never once unfortunately again, as I keep saying, I've never unfortunately have failed at finding somebody that wants to meet with what they believe is a little boy like or a little girl, but you know, in in my talks, it's usually a little boy. I use my own face with >> with the making myself look like a little boy. But yeah, I wish I wish that I could, you know, say, "Hey, I'm going to show you this and and fail at it a bunch of times over, but I it never happens." Like is if anyone's watched my my interviews or podcasts and I've done this before. I've never like had to redo or retake something. It's like >> And I've heard you mention that in your other podcast. I'm like, "Let's let's put that to the test. Let's actually have them actually do it." And yeah, I get >> it would have worked with the first one that we tried.

53:44 >> Yeah. but for whatever reason the chat was disabled. I'm not going to you know so whatever but the this site was the second option that came to mind and yeah so it just it's just horrible then but >> so if you so let's say we don't want to do vigilante work when we take that profile and we report it. >> Yep. >> Would would anything actually be done? >> probably not with this one. I can't say for sure and I will report this. I mean, usually I have my bot running, so it would have grabbed his profile URL and and I'll have all that saved from from this session, but it would have saved everything and then that would just be in my notes. So, yeah, I mean, if it would be out of my hands if somebody did do something, this guy is a danger to to society clearly, but you know, I it's not up to me whether he gets arrested tonight or not.

54:32 >> So, you guys were you were doing the vigilante work. You're you're coming at these guys, reading the the the iPad with the their chat logs, you're recording them, and then you hand it off to law enforcement, I guess. >> Yeah. So So we would have the at first we didn't call the cops cuz a lot of the predator catchers I was working with before were getting like disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, all these charges, trespassing for wherever they were at, and the predators for getting led all free. So we were kind of like a little nervous to call the cops. but eventually the cops got called on us one time at a at a Walmart because we were I guess LA or someone overheard the conversation and we realized the cops were on our side. They wanted to help, but they didn't realize that that the state attorney was, you know, not not going to have the same feeling that the cops did. And and now Dustin got his own situation where he's trying to like create and whatever whatever case law, whatever comes from this to issue longer sentences for the creditors that are caught vigilante styles. it's not something that that I know much about when it comes to legal the legal side like the how lawyers are are you know hey this guy gets 10 years when when a a homeland security person is doing the decoy work versus this guy's a citizen being a decoy and I'm handing off the evidence that that guy gets out in 3 days one guy you know it's just I don't understand why that that happens but I do know that if I was to associate with a vigilante group I've been told over and over and over again by multiple people that are federal agents. If I got associated, it's called fruit of the poisonous tree. So, let's say we met with this guy. We made a YouTube video exposing him for want to meet with what he thought to be a kid. I'm being a vigilante again. I'm taking the law into my own hands and then all my previous cases could potentially be discredited by me getting back into vigilante work.

56:22 So, it's when I stopped and when I made the decision to work solely with law enforcement, obviously the, you know, the notoriety, the public stuff is gone, which I was, I was fine with as long as there was more arrests and and there is, thankfully. but, it also it came with the the responsibility of not allowing myself, no matter how angry this guy is making me, not acting on it right now, just reporting it through the proper means and letting them handle it and trusting that they're going to handle it as well. And, and they do, thankfully. I got some really good relationships now. Things are not like they were in the beginning where they ignored me and and kids were getting hurt. That's a it's a we we'd be here till 10 p.m. if I answered everything, but you know, I I understand why things went the way that they went. I don't 100% agree with why they didn't answer me, but I do understand why it took so long. And and you know, I I I have to forgive and forget and and now thankfully I can make things happen a lot quicker than I used to be able to. I guess is the simplest way to answer why I'm cool with them now, but I was very pissed off at them before.

57:26 >> And we'll get into like how you started working with law enforcement here in a minute because we were kind we kind of talked about that before. but so with what you're doing here, where is the line between you're just kind of doing OENT or getting a situation set up and then becoming a vigilante because like so far you haven't really done vigilante stuff right now. >> Pretending to be a little boy. Yeah, I'm pretending to be a little boy. I have a guy's face. I don't have a username, but this luckily with reverse facial recognition, I could probably identify this guy and then, you know, send a try.

57:57 Yeah, you can give it a shot. >> And this is all run through your pintestester.com. >> Yeah. So, it you you're supposed to use this for your own identity. >> but, in this case, I'm just doing it for ease of use. >> I have other tools that I use that as well as pent tester for reverse spatial recognition, but >> in this case I'm just trying to get a quick result. So let's see what happens. >> Yeah. And we could talk about the other tools here in a moment, but so you're saying that one of the main things for your pentest.com is people can use reverse facial recognition on their own identity to help find out where their identity's been.

58:30 >> Yeah. Like maybe maybe your face was posted on a Facebook page at a birthday party 10 years ago and you have no idea and you want them to take it down. or maybe you're being used on a website that you don't want to be on. There's many reasons why you want to know where your face is out there. You could be even in the background of a, you know, a football game in a in a stadium and just a tiny little square of your face is there and you know, maybe you want that photo, but so there's some good side to it and somewhere maybe you want to request removal and we at Pentest remove all that data for you. So like something that I'm going to recommend for you is you're on every data broker out there. You know, you I'm going to I'm going to help you. I'm just going to remove it for you. But you're it's everybody that has that has the situation that you're going to see with what I found on you. They're going to want to use a product like Pentester or Pentester to to get rid of rid of that stuff so that people can't easily find your address, your name, your phone number, and all that other stuff you're about to see.

59:28 >> And and and listen, I I've I've used services like what contesttor.com is to remove my stuff, but it sounds like it didn't stick. >> Did not. No. And and the one thing with that is is some of them, you know, they have 45 days to take down the information, but they if anything changes, your phone number, an associate to you, an address, they they just relist it. So you need somebody that's constantly rescanning and removing the data. So whoever you use might have did a great job, but if you're not continuing to use them, then your data will eventually come back.

59:59 >> Is that working for photos, too? Like you can request photos be taken down. >> That's going to be more of a manual process. So you like in this case, you see I ran this this predator's photo and here we go. We got a Facebook with a name here. >> Holy crap. >> and I have a link to it. So let's say he didn't want this posted, right? he could, you know, you could reach out to this person and say, "Hey, I want I want my photo removed." But in this case, now we we know what this predator's name is because we got a picture of his face from this dating app. Dude, that's crazy.

60:30 >> Yeah. I mean, I if if you don't mind, I'd blur all of his information because it could it could turn into an active investigation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like what we just did was part of the process. That's insane to think about. >> Just a very small piece of it. But yeah, and then I'm sure Let's see. Yeah. We got more messages. Look at all those more people. Wild night's here. Pink, meaning he's fixing some, you know, the your butt.

60:56 and this guy, it just these guys are bad, man. and they think they're they're talking to this little guy, you know? I just I can't handle it. So, luckily, I don't do a ton of decoy work. I don't have the the patience or the temperament for it. But, you know, >> yeah, cuz like this is just going to degrade your soul every time you get into this. >> Yeah. And this isn't even the 764 like this the self harm stuff. There's just so much. We could talk for hours about stuff, but Yeah, man. There's a lot of bad stuff to a lot of bad stuff that's going on. And, you know, it's it's predators. It's these these communities. It's it's extortionists that are having kids hurt themselves on camera. There's just so much evil in the world. And and yeah, people are aware that it exists, but they don't usually see it. So, I like to show like this.

61:41 Here's the evil right in front of your face. If you didn't believe it existed, now you do, you know? So, that's >> So, tell me, should we I guess we're sick of time. Do you feel like we should just jump into how to actually do these things or >> Yeah. do or do you >> It's already 5:24 and I know you guys got to go. >> We got Yeah, we got to move quickly. but also if we have time, I I do want to hear more about the the other things like you said 564 is what it's called.

62:03 >> 561 PC. >> 5561 PC. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not it's not a group that I'm associated with anymore. But it's he's still running the YouTube channel catching predators and it's it's it's great. But that's his own thing. I can't be associated in any way to that. >> Oh, so actually no, not that. But like you said there's other like there's like selfarms. >> Yeah. The 764 group is is a group that started with, you know, a younger kid started it. and the goal was to basically just they're they're considered a nihilist group. Nihilist meaning not care about anything, destroy everything type of thing. they're a Satanist group. They they're identify as that. They're they're marked as a terrorist organization in the United States. And and all of these subgroups are doing the exact same thing. So they go into for example a mental health support group looking for children that have mental health issues that let's say they're being bullied in school or they want to hurt themselves or you know they vulnerable children.

62:57 They look for them. They pretend to be a peer. They pretend to be a friend. They they groom that child into thinking that they're in a relationship with them whether it be a boy or a girl. When that happens and they they then they start to ask for an exchange of nude photos from that child. And from there they don't try to extort them out of money. They they then change and tell them that hey you need to cut my username into your arm or your chest or your leg or you need to cut the head off of your your cat or your you know or you know hurt somebody or stab your sister. You know the like I've if you've seen my other podcasts, you've seen the the pictures of some of this stuff to like it's not me just making this up. You can see the evidence and you know I'll save your eyes from this stuff. It's pretty bad unless you want to see it. but you know, these guys are just trying to see what the next most extreme thing they can make somebody do. And a lot of it has amounted to suicides, kids actually hurting themselves. And they've been my main focus for for a while now.

63:57 I guess almost a year and a half, two, close to two years. >> Like, yeah, 764 group is where it started, but there's a gajillion subgroups that do exactly the same thing. They don't care about the money. They just want kids to hurt themselves and and that they they get their clout or recognition for how many victims that they have. And there's a lot more to it, but it's a long story. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think I think it's enough to piss people off.

64:23 >> Yeah. And I hope people know and and you know, for anyone out there that, you know, is just is watching this check out the the Sean Ryan the second one. and it's it's like 5 hours, but if you want to skip right to the end of it, you'll see like the last two hours or so, you'll see some of these images and chat logs and videos of exactly what I'm talking about. So, you don't have to just take my word for it. You can just you could see it happening. it's it's a severe issue and the internet is is really bad. So, you know, not not all of it's bad, but there's a lot of bad on it.

64:53 >> Yeah. Yeah. A ton of bad on it. And so, yeah, let's let's learn the tools to actually start getting getting good at this so we can actually combat it. >> Sure. So that that I think you know with with the series is a great idea for you. because if you want to get interested if you're interested in OSEN in general like open source intel in intelligence there's a bunch of tools I got to show you and then methods I got to show you and then groups I want to connect you with.

65:17 >> Yeah. >> So >> today I guess what we should do is the condensed version. So >> I know your your full name. I don't think that's a secret. Charles Keith, right? >> when I started to dig into you I I saw that you were on all these public data brokers. So, it was easy to see that your your dad, your grandpa, so you read the third, your your you know, >> got that. You read that >> Chuck Smith the third. and, I started to dig into, you know, some more of your information and I was able to find all of this, which, you know, feel free to tell me what you're willing to, you know, say, but it's correct. These are all pictures of you. Obviously, you got plenty of photos.

65:53 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> but that's your social, I'm assuming. >> Yes. Oh, no. My birthday, my phone number, every where I've worked, my wife's name, >> you can go grocery. This is just my automated tool. So, I just put your name in here with your phone number that I pulled from a data broker. I put nothing else. >> Every phone number I've ever had, actually.

66:24 h yeah, all my addresses, including my dad's address. Yeah. Yeah. you you got everything, dude. >> Good. >> No, not good. >> Hey, quick break. And this one's a little different because Ryan wasn't expecting this. I'm going to do an ad for his product, pentest.com. mainly because it's good. Like really good. good. And I want you to check it out because as you saw in this interview, he found stuff on me. He pulled my social security number, he found out where I lived, info on my family, my dad, phone number, like everything from his tool, from his service. And what's kind of got me thinking about this a lot is I pay for other services that do this. they don't help me with that.

67:15 So, this one's good. The other ones didn't quite stick. And Ryan told me why. data brokers, sites like white pages have about 45 days to take your info down, but the second anything changes, like a new phone number or a new address, they just relist you. So, a onetime cleanup is not going to last. You need something that keeps scanning and keeps removing. And it's also, it's got to be good at doing that. And that's what Pentester does. It sends removal requests to over 475 data brokers, also people search sites, and it keeps sending them. It watches data breaches in the dark web for your email, phone number, social security number, usernames, passwords. It also comes with credit monitoring and up to a million dollars in identity theft insurance. It starts at 19 bucks a month. And like Ryan said, that's that's lunch depending on where you live. It's good lunch. And also, he said, you know, it doesn't have to be his company. Like, at least use something. But I think because you're listening to this podcast, and if you don't have something, you should check out Ryan's cuz Ryan's a good dude and he's a crazy good hacker. Let him hack for you. So, right now, go to pintest.com and run the free scan. No credit card. about 30 seconds and you'll see what's already out there about you.

68:16 Links in the description. It might be right here. That's it. >> Well, I'm gonna clean it up for you. I'm gonna clean up the data broker side, which will make this significantly harder for your average person. >> Yeah. >> but but yeah, this is this is this is Osent Pilot. It's only available for law enforcement. So, you know, reach out to us if you're law enforcement. We'd be happy to help you. >> this isn't something like someone could just pay us for and get access to.

68:38 But Pentester, and this is, you know, kind of makes sense. pen tester was built with these methods in mind to identify you and discover your digital footprint. So, you know, for $19, people spend that like on lunch, you know, it's not like a it's not an expensive bill every month to make sure that your data is being removed, your face is being searched, your username is being searched, your you know, your passwords aren't being breached, and you know, we even monitor the BIN number on your car. Anything you want to be recursively searched through hundreds of billions of records, we do it. And and then on top of that, remove your data from data brokers. And then we're implementing credit monitoring as well soon, which is will come free with the plan if you get it now. So that's kind of like my sales pitch on it. But but pen tester was built with all of these these methodologies in mind. This tool oen pilot is using 40 tools, some of which are pentester to identify things. So it had Charles key with a phone number and I hit enter. Some time went by and all of those tools executed.

69:35 AI then summarized it all together and and we got the results with every profile you have >> and you know all your all your identifiers. >> I like to think I have some pretty good like online sanitation caucuses, but apparently not. And and I think the average person probably have a lot worse worse of a profile out there. >> You're absolutely right. You yours was not as bad as as most people's, but most people don't even know what data brokers are. like whitepages.com. I know they're familiar with it, but they don't know they are harvesting your data and reselling it in multiple places. So, if you're not staying on top of deleting that, it makes it really easy to just search your first name, last name, phone number, and then, you know, your data is there. It makes it very simple. But using a service like that or somebody else, doesn't have to be us, they will remove the data for you, and you know, highly recommend it.

70:21 >> So, the OSP pilot is something that you built for law enforcement to use. Yeah, our team our a team at pentester built oent pilot for law enforcement because you know unfortunately they're not all very skilled in manual osent. So if you can give us some identifiers I mean I'll show you that it's pretty straightforward here. so you can start an investigation with a photo or you can start with with an identifier and then you can put as much of this in here or as little as you want or additional notes. Hit this and then you come back and you get that report. I didn't do anything more than that for your name and your phone number and that's what I got back.

70:57 >> So, it's a it's a significant tool. It works very well. And especially when you're trying to identify somebody that's hard to find. It's not just pulling data from, you know, from these these data broker sites and compiling it together. It's going out and getting real time real data that happened when you clicked to start the investigation. So, that's super important in cases like this. So, I know it's a current address. I know it's the current phone number. I know it's an account that you got connected to this phone or this email and so on and so forth. whereas with you know some of these sites you're getting data that might be years old and it's almost impossible to know without verifying like this.

71:34 >> Mhm. So with with someone looking to start this journey you're saying that the the initial skill set would be OSENT. >> Yeah. >> It's open source intelligence. Now for those who don't know what that is what is what is OSENT exactly? So open source intelligence is and and in the simplest way I can put it is utilizing or being a professional Googler, let's say. So using information that's publicly accessible, even if it's very difficult to get to. So let's say let's say you got a speeding ticket and you're in Texas and it was on a p a government portal site and for whatever reason the cop misspelled your last name, still a public record. But if I typed in Chuck Keith with two two H's at the end and I found that record, it's still public record. Even though you can't find it unless you put the two H's, it's still public record. OSEN is you utilizing that ability to search the the public domain for for records and then creating a report so that in court they don't need subpoenas or warrants or anything like that because it's publicly accessible information. as if if someone left a piece of paper out on the sidewalk with all of that information in a report, it's just as as freely and openly accessible as as that report is.

72:43 so that's like a simple way to explain OSEN. I think I think that makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was great. >> Okay, thank you. And and then there's, you know, there's signal intelligence. There's there's a million different types of insan and geosent and all there's a million things, but we could go on all night. Okay. So, for someone watching this right now and whether they're like well, first of all, who who do you think should step in and start helping like this and and learning OSET because I I mean, do you do you want I don't know, kids in high school who are interested in in hacking? Should they should they start stepping into this and helping or do you think it should only be people who are more advanced in the career? Who should it be?

73:22 >> I think that adults should stick to this. >> Keep your heads out of the front now. >> Yeah. Because you know the kids you're think of the people that you're dealing with, right? the people you're dealing with are are they may send you some horrible photos or videos or say some things. I I kids aren't they they shouldn't they shouldn't be exposed to anything sexual regardless. But you know that type of material is there's a whole other conversation about what you do if something like that happens as a civilian because you can't be in possession of it even if you have good intentions.

73:51 >> Oh yeah. So we we got to get into that actually. So I think before and sorry to to kind of take us in a different direction, but I think to to step in to learn the tools, we should know how do we avoid becoming a vigilante >> and how do we get hooked up with the right people to actually do this the right way the way you're doing it now. >> Got it. So that this is what took me forever to figure out and I'm so grateful that it is figured out is there's a magical word called parallel reconstruction. So let's say you work with an a non-government organization like Sentinel Foundation or Tim Tibo Foundation or Operation Light Shine or National Center for Missing Exploited Children any group you choose right I work with Sentinel Foundation part in because that was my choice in the beginning the we have law enforcement liaison you know either let's say let's say we have a case domestically that's just us only we would reach out let's say to the marshalss or the FBI or HSI, whoever's own that case and say, "Hey, we have this guy or this group and we want to investigate them. Can you create a case number?" So, they create a case number. We start digging into them, doing as much open source intelligence as we can, not not poking anywhere we're not supposed to poke. But then there's some specific situations where we can poke places where we're not supposed to poke if we have the right authorization, which which we could, you know, I I don't know how much I can go into those papers. you know, there there's a specific paper you can sign for this.

75:19 but the goal skipping that is is parallel reconstruction is they want to recreate the steps that you took to get that information so that they can convict the person or group. and you at that at that point don't have to go to court. You're not a suspect. You're not a witness. You just supplied them with the methodology you use to ga gather the information. So you're almost a you're like you're you're acting on behalf of them, but then they're acting on behalf of you officially. Does that make sense?

75:51 >> Yeah. Yeah, it does. It does. So to to become that in an official capacity, what do you have to do? >> You have to work with one of these organizations or you have to be very close with a bunch of different law enforcement agencies. So, I would say working with a group like Sentinel Foundation or or any of the others I named is a is a good idea because otherwise you're can you're risking going to prison for for trying to be a good person.

76:12 >> If one of these guys sends you some nudes of a of a child, now you are, you know, you're looking at a federal crime that even if your intentions were good. >> So, just for that being on your hard drive, whether it's on your phone or your computer, you are now at risk of going to jail. >> Oh, yeah. and and it can get squun in many directions because it's it's as soon as you have it, it's possession of CSAM. If that information got uploaded to Google Photos or iCloud, now it's distribution. if it gets edited in any shape or way, now it's manufacturing.

76:42 So, you you know, you do not want to be in that mess. Obviously, most people with their right head on their shoulder obviously doesn't want to see anything like that. But when you get into this space and you're playing with fire, it's something that could happen to you and you have to know what to do and what the chain of custody is when it does. so working with groups like like that is a good insulator. as well as the chances of of conviction go way up.

77:06 >> So So you're saying before anyone steps in to like do any kind of oent like we're talking about, they should 100% get set up with an NGO or something. It it depends on if they're doing passive oent or active is being passive just means they're they're they're scanning from the background. They're not they're probably not going to see anything get sent to them, but they could run into an image that's hosted somewhere on the internet. That can happen. Less likely, but possible. Active, let's say they're decoying or something like that, they have a way higher chance someone sending something wild to them than than you passively looking around. So, but work is really just to solve the problem.

77:42 work with a group of people that have the same goals in mind. Offer the skill set. Even if you're not a hacker, you just want to get into this. You're passionate about it, learn about open source intelligence, watch some videos about some methodologies, do some of the practices that they have out there and get into the space and I'd be happy personally reach out to me. I'd be happy to help you. You know, you obviously personally and anyone watching this video, reach out to Sentinel Foundation and say, "I want to get involved. Join the internship program and and you you'll get trained by a bunch of analysts including myself." So, I mean, do that or be a vigilante and risk, you know, getting getting lesser convictions, still exposing the person.

78:18 There's still value in it, but I I had to choose what one made the most sense. >> Yeah. And you've seen more success going the the official routes. >> Yeah. Significant more success. And and nothing against anyone out there that's a vigilante. I do have some issues with people that make it a joke. You know, I don't think that that's funny in any way, shape, or form. Like if someone's, you know, they don't realize what was going to happen to what they believed to be a child and now they're just dancing around on YouTube cuz they're going to get views. Like I'm not cool with that. But exposing the predator, I guess, makes it half okay.

78:49 but yeah, myself personally, I know for a fact the the the convictions are going to be significantly longer if you work with law enforcement from the beginning. >> So that's great. And it's an easy thing to do. You don't have to you don't have to work hard not to take this into your own hands. Don't do what I did in the beginning cuz I didn't know what I didn't know what I was doing was wrong. even though it turned into something good, that's not going to happen for everybody. My doors could have got kicked in and I could have went to jail and been grouped in. I would have proved myself innocent and got out of it. But imagine he Googled my name and saw some charges like that. Like Yeah. Like I I didn't realize I was at risk of something like that. I didn't know any better. But now you guys listening and you now you know better.

79:31 >> Yeah. And that's the last thing I want. Like I I don't want you guys to watch this and go, "Okay, I'm just going to start doing this." And you get yourself in trouble. Like make sure you take the proper steps. So you're saying like for Sentinel's Foundation or you said Timbo Foundation? >> Yeah. Tenso Foundation, the big one. >> And so to let's say Sentinel cuz you work with with Sentinel. let's say right now I'm like I want to be part of it. I want to start doing it right away.

79:50 >> What's the process like? >> So you would hit up like info at info@ foundations.org I think is the email. and then and just say you're interested and they'll put you on the next group of interns and you'll you'll have a call once a week to be initiated and you just start learning the tools and we're working an active case. You'll get one active case in the beginning to work with the internship group and then the people that stick around and in advance turn into analysts and and you go from there.

80:18 >> That's actually pretty cool. How many interns do you take in one time? it depends on the amount of influx because we'll get, let's say, 500 emails and maybe 10 of them seem like real candidates, you know, for this for the job. But, you know, it it's if you send an email just saying like, "Hey, I want to will help, you know, like you don't you're not giving us much room to have a conversation or or pick you for the >> be a bit more specific."

80:41 >> Yeah. Almost like you're sending a resume. like explain, hey, I want to get into this because I I'm super passionate about OSENT and here's what I've done already to to prove that I'm, you know, >> why I why I, you know, why people should take the time to train you, you know, in this space. >> So, that that's I think the reason why a lot of people don't you know, don't get picked, but a lot of them, they don't actually, this is another thing I've noticed, and I'm going on a little bit of a tangent here, but no, >> you're good. I love tangents. the the you know a lot of the interns that have worked with us over the years they fall off you know and it for many reasons it's a it's hard to stomach number one number two it's a lot of work number three it's extremely hard like it's not it's not easy like like running a tool like Osent Pilot I'm trying to make it as easy as possible for people but it's not going to do all the manual oent that I could do by hand on you like if we wanted to start digging into everything you've ever done I'm going to need more than oent pilot and and you know a lot of them fall off and and they disappear and you never hear from them again and then you're left with a couple analysts and and that's where we're at. So the the cyber security community there's such a small number that I can count them on both my hands that are working in child crimes that have an actual cyber security brain that actually or or skill set in the space for other words.

81:59 >> that should not be the case. There should be so many people working on this that that that I don't even know everyone in this space, but I know every person all I know them all. I mean, it'd be rare that I don't think it would if someone walked up to me today and said, "Hey, I'm a I'm I'm in cyber security and I work in child crimes and they were genuinely in cyber security, not just like took a class or something."

82:20 Yeah. >> Like I'd be shocked. >> Genuinely shocked. And that's how significantly we need the help. >> Okay. We're we're going to try and change that. So if you're watching this, you're in cyber security. Like I'm talking to stinking you right now. So like So cool. No. So I'm curious actually right now. So is there any is there any and I think we already kind of answered it. I just want to make sure we hear it clear as day. Is there any safe way they can start practicing these tools or these techniques?

82:45 >> Oh yeah. >> Before they get officially signed up with an NGO. >> Yeah. So if they just want to learn OSEN then you could do OSN without a predator. You just you know do OSN on yourself into your family member or a friend or a business or a pl you know OSEN could be anything. open source intelligence. but let's say you want to do something that's challenging. Go on a site like try hackme or Google search OS n challenge and start doing the challenges and challenge yourself to identify like let's say it's a picture of a a street sign with a bunch of arrows like 30 miles to this place, 50 mi to that place, 100 to that with arrows in all different directions.

83:19 What's the longitude and latitude of that sign for example? You know, like little oent challenges to teach yourself what can I do with a photo? What can I do with a username? What can I do with a phone number? What can I do with the last two digits of a phone number? what can I do with a logo on a shirt that's fade the name of the business has faded away, but the logo is still there.

83:37 All these things have different methods and and if you're not aware of them, you're you're just going to, you know, you're going to look at a photo and and see it in a completely different lens than I would. >> Okay, that makes sense. >> Yeah, it totally does. so, what are some of the tools we can start learning right now for OSENT? So, I know you said a bunch of tools are built into to OSENT pilot. Yeah, which is not accessible so to everybody. So, pentester does have the facial recognition tool and data breaches and username. So, I mean it's a lot of it's built into pentester but it's not built for doing it on anyone but yourself.

84:09 you can use like what's my name.app for example to to look for usernames or you can use eyes like pas and paul i e.com to for reverse facial recognition. you can and but it's not as as good as some of the other ones out there. you can use that you can use tini t as in tom i n e y to do reverse image searching. So if an image of let's say a land turtle or a biscuit pro, if I took a picture of this and did a reverse image search on it, I'd find something that looked exactly like this image, but not this object. it's looking for that exact image.

84:48 >> So that that can be useful in certain cases, though. So I, you know, I've done I've done basic OSETs in the past. I made some OSEN videos. so I I I've used Tenni before. What are more advanced things I need to learn to step into this? And what are some things you could show me? Right. >> more advanced like like reporting or just tools like I ocean. >> It's such a broad term. >> Yeah, it's such a broad I'm trying to think of like trying to think of a good way to explain it to everybody. I know you understand what I'm talking about, but >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to think of how like tools or methods.

85:23 >> Tools. >> Tools. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, for everybody you could be is using like for me pull it up here. Like wholehe is a good one for people to try on their own. >> Wholeheel. I never heard of that. >> Yeah. I got to spell it correctly. Yeah. Holy. Never say it correctly. This one right here. So, email to registered accounts for example. it's gonna run and it's going to you run your email against all of these sites which obviously are huge. Amazon, Atlassian, Code Academy, Evernote, Firefox, Freelancer, Google, Patreon, Spotify, Twitter, where there's hundreds of them here. So, >> yeah, it's hitting all the domains.

86:09 >> Yeah. So, like that's one tool, wholehe where you can throw an email in there. It's going to tell you if that person exists on that site and if there's any data associated with it, it's going to show that data and it's not going to notify the person either that you're searching for them. So, that's a that's one little oent trick for an email address. the username search, what's my name.app, that's a good one unless you use Sherlock, which is another good one in the terminal to identify accounts connected to a username. Phone numbers, I like to to do reverse caller ID lookups. So a lot of people, you know, they they pay their phone bill, they put their name on the account, they don't realize their caller ID actually is exposed in their first and last name. So phone numbers are easy to at least start there and then using the name at a data broker like white pages or instant checkmate or whatever platform you use.

86:53 >> and then from there you build the profile out. you got some more personal information and then you could start digging a little bit deeper into data breaches and like say you know which I don't want to name those on YouTube but data breach sites where you could start running their emails looking for passwords and IP addresses and private messages and and anything that may be in a data breach and then start recursively searching backwards through those data breaches for other emails and identifiers on that person and building out a bigger profile.

87:19 >> Now are these data breach websites which we're not going to name are they on the clear web or is it dark web? >> Most of them clear web. Yeah. Oh wow. Okay. >> Mhm. >> do you do anything on the dark web at all? >> it's other than when I'm working in parallel with federal law enforcement. If I want to be very very particular there. no. >> It's only, you know, I don't really have any need for it. If I was like a, you know, interested in buying drugs, maybe I'd be on like drug forums or something or drug >> drug marketplaces, but other than that, I don't need it unless I'm working in, you know, on a case, which >> Right. Right.

87:52 >> Yeah. So, not personally, I don't. at all. >> Okay. So, you will end up at some point on the dark web when you're working a case with law enforcement. >> Yeah, pretty often for for law enforcement personally. No. >> Is there anything you can share about that side of things? >> Not at the moment because it's all 764 subgroup related and it's all active. >> Are you the only one working that kind of stuff right now?

88:13 >> outside of FBI and HSI. Yeah. >> Damn. there's there's there's other don't get me wrong there's other researchers out there that are that are taking it you know on that to my knowledge are not working with law enforcement. There's two that I know of and and they're taking big risks and and one of them that I'm aware I don't want to name them and embarrass them but like I seen something they posted recently and they were in a chat with people while kids were getting extorted.

88:39 they were recording it as evidence, but they were in the chat. So, they're, you know, complicit in, you know, in the same way that the people there were watching the extortion happen. So, I don't know. I just don't really agree with their methods. >> I think that, there's better ways to handle that, especially if you know you're not working with law enforcement. Why are you in there watching a kid hurt themselves? But, like, I don't think they're an evil person. It sounds like I'm saying that, but that's not what I'm saying. I just think that it's very unintelligent what they did >> recently.

89:08 >> Yeah. They're they're probably just like they're not aware of what they're doing, but it's like they're still incriminating themselves. >> Exactly. >> Wow. Okay. >> so getting back to the OAN side of things. So if I if I wanted to step into this, which I do and and I really want to do it, what are my first steps? So like I I know like let's assume >> Well, give me give me a scenario. That'll be easier for me to come up with.

89:29 >> So obviously so I mean let's say I did want to do some vigilante work. >> Okay. >> What do I learn first? >> You like let's say you're a decoy. You get a message from somebody and so what identifier do you have? A username, a face, a phone number. What do you want to start with? >> Let's start with what the example we had there. So the the guy you found. >> All right. So if I had that guy's face, I would go to let's just say pim eyes for example.

89:53 >> Yeah. Let's assume we don't have your amazing AI tools. >> Yeah. We're going to use this is that this guy. Yeah. run this guy's face. And if I didn't have a face, I would try to try to get a phone number, have him text because he was an anonymous profile if you remember. So yeah, the only identifier we had was is that picture >> and this and PIM is is PIM eyes is a a free tool that anyone can use.

90:25 >> No, you got to pay for it. I don't I don't know if they're about to pay walls right now, but okay. >> I have an account if we need >> to use it. >> Are there any open source tools that are similar to this? not open source. I'm sure you can index a bunch of faces or near zero faces were found anyway. >> Okay, >> PIM it works. It's not the greatest. It used to be better, I feel like.

90:46 But let's see if it doesn't any better signed in. >> What is your tool doing differently from PMI if you're sure that >> it's a matter of the size of the database behind it. So >> it's a you know it's PM eyes could be a great you know facial recognition tool is identifying 120 points at the face measuring them and then hashing that data looking in the database for anything that matches that those measurements. but you know they may not have the same faces that someone that I have or who I'm integrating with or you know combined databases.

91:18 >> yeah it's a they haven't found anything that we were able to find earlier. >> Okay. Okay. So, so my my goal here would be to >> but let's say you didn't though. Let's say we found his face and let's say we found a name from that name we're going to in that case we saw it was a Facebook. So we have a general location of where that person lives. We know what they look like. We have a general idea of their age and in that case we have the exact age. now we go to a data broker site like like instant checkmate or white pages or whatever.

91:48 >> Put in that information. We know where they're at. But we know what. So now it's going to limit us down, let's say, one or two, unless it's John Smith, and we got like seven of them. Now we got to go through each one till we find the one that looks like that guy. now we got all the information about him. As a vigilante, that's where it ends. You know, you you you continue the decoy conversation and then the guy eventually asks you to meet up. You meet up with him. You know everything there is to know about him that's going to make him stay. And if he runs away, at least you can call his wife or call his friends or call his work. and that's the end of it. or maybe the cops get involved and they want some information, but usually they only want the chat logs.

92:23 They don't really care about the the OSent work that you did. >> So, how do I get involved right now? >> I would link you up with my team. >> Okay. >> And then you probably don't even need to be on the intern team cuz I just show you the tools. You're going to understand how to use them. Okay. >> And you have the brain already for it, the passion for it. I think you would just be an analyst right away. All right.

92:39 >> So, I'd throw you in to a active case. I think the only thing you probably have to really practice with is is how the chain of custody and notes work. and then how that information gets reported. but I think you figure that out very quickly. >> What's the reporting like? Is it pretty strict? >> Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're dealing with with CENT because there's specific tools where you have to upload those images and then if they haven't been identified before, they have to be tagged like you know explaining what is going on in that video or photo and it can get that's not going to happen through Sentinel. It's going to be law enforcement. But you know there is a process that I can't talk about on camera of how it goes from Sentinel to law enforcement.

93:21 >> Completely legitimate process. I can't talk about it on camera. >> Now is there any at any point do you go past OSENT and you actually use additional like hacking techniques to to get information? can't confirm or deny, you know, >> but at that point, you're you're working in line with law enforcement and whatever you're doing is actually you're good. >> Yeah, exactly. Yep. 100%. It's I don't have to worry about getting locked up randomly for trying to do the right thing. I got the the right precautions whether I want to get a little crazy or not.

93:52 >> Hey, if you're serious about security, rule number one is that you don't practice on someone else's machine. You need your own. That's what I use a Hostinger VPS for. Full route access so I can install and configure whatever I want. whatever my Linux DRO supports, your rules, your tools, dedicated CPU and RAM that you're not sharing because KVM keeps every VPS isolated on its own resources and you're up fast. Pre-made templates plus a docker manager with 200 plus options, so you're up and running in minutes, all on predictable monthly pricing. A real server you control without the managed hosting premium. So head to hostinger.com/ncct10.

94:24 That's hostinger.com/ncct10 and use code networkchuck for 10% off. Get your own box and then go build something now. be before I ask you about a lot of this stuff because I it's sitting here I'm getting distracted by it cuz it looks so >> we might have to do it in Texas. >> I think I think we might have to you can you talk about a bit about like coming to a a con like this and being a public figure. I mean like how does that for you?

94:52 >> Oh, it's it's I mean there's both sides. There's the fun part. Getting to see my friends and getting to see all the people that like I've helped inspire and all that. That's all a blessing and and great. The other part is, you know, that these communities, which I don't want to name specifically, I won't even give them that credit, you know, they consistently send death threats, you know, and and some of them involve Defcon. So, coming here with security, even though they're not wearing security clothes, but I, you know, they're they're sorry, playing plain clothes security. I don't know. I was brain farting there. having to do that just feels weird to me, you know, because I'm just a normal guy. Like on the other side of a camera, I'm a character to people. I'm just a person, influencer or a content creator. What I hate all these words, but but that's what people look at me as, but really I'm just a human. I'm a guy that is just as much of a person as everybody else.

95:45 And for whatever reason, walking with security through an event because somebody all some some multiple people want to kill me just feels really strange to me, you know, like just having to have that thought in the back of my head that someone's going to come up behind me and stab me because they want the clout. cuz they like specifically with these cults is is stabbing people. it's like some people might think what I'm saying is insane and and they're like dude's out of his mind, you know. But if you were to see some of the videos, you'd see that's exactly what they do. You know, they've done this. It's not like I wouldn't be their first victim, unfortunately. so I, you know, I had to take the right precautions while coming this year because, you know, as you know, walking through a convention like Defcon can be difficult in a good way. You know, you're you're running into a lot of people. They're asking you a million questions. They want pictures.

96:33 They some of them might have some technical issues. Some of them might have some mental issues. some of them. You know, there's a lot of different things happening all at once. And you know, the last thing that I want to think about during that chaos is somebody wanting to hurt me while I'm being distracted by 10 other people, you know. >> Yeah. So, like when when I saw you at the con today, were there security just out of >> three? Oh, there was three different people with with loaded weapons.

96:57 >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Huh. >> So, it >> they hit pretty well. I had no idea. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it worked out perfect. And it's it's like that every year. So it since I've been coming to Defcon, I've had at least one person with a weapon, but this year I' I've had some extra help. >> Dang. So you you you escalated your your your team because you believed you have a higher threat. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, they you got to take a credible death threat seriously. You can't just ignore it. Even if you feel like at least my personal belief is that someone wants to hurt you, they're probably not going to tell you.

97:26 >> But I got to take it seriously no matter what. >> And this is a as a result of like working against this this self harm death cold, satanic cult. Exactly. And being public about it because they don't have a lot of they don't have a lot of adversaries that are public. You know, they do have a bunch of law enforcement trying to figure out who they are and break their ops is what it's called >> operational security or their you know uncover who's behind the alias or the the username. but myself and and a couple other people online are the only ones talking about them. So it the in their world to make my life difficult were to hurt me would be like the coolest thing that they could do, you know, and so which is not good for me, but it is what it is. I'm not not too worried about it. I'm ready to I'm ready for it if it's coming.

98:13 >> Not not in the way that you're not inviting it. >> Not inviting, but if it happens, they should be ready to get shot and die, you know? >> Dude, that's actually pretty crazy. but also I'm impressed that you you still come out and do things like this knowing the risk. >> Thanks. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I it's I believe in God and that's what the plan is. That's what the plan is. But I don't think that's the plan. Well, you know, it's I could be wrong.

98:37 Hopefully I am wrong. I'm not wrong. I mean, and I don't I don't end up getting stabbed tonight, but it's >> You're not going to. Well, hopefully not. >> No, I don't think so. >> I actually had a question before you get into the gadgets. >> Sure. like for someone I mean because you we have a large audience and there's you know same as like Sean Ryan you know like there's probably like mobs or like people are not techsavvy at all that you know this feels so like so much I I'm not techsavvy and it feels like a lot.

99:09 What do you re how do you how do you reach out about someone you're concerned about? And >> so if you're like you mean like a like a kid that's close to you or your own child like how do you report an incident? >> Yeah. I mean >> yes. >> So you can go the same way reaching out to a group like Sentinel Foundation, Tantibo Foundation, but there's the ic3.gov for internet crimes and complaints and then there's the National Center for Missing Exploited Children has a tip line as well and they will dispatch federal agencies to work these cases as well. So, that's what I would do as a parent. if unfortunately something happens. But, if you want to avoid something from happening in the first place or try your best to do that, install some monitoring software on your kids' devices. Have these conversations with them. And you know under something that I say all the time that I think is extremely important and you being a father of six six girls you probably are learning that you can take you know you you can take away a cell phone from a kid but they have friends at school. I have friends that also have cell phones, that have connections to social media, and if they don't feel like they can come back to you and tell you the truth without getting reprimanded or you taking away their connection to the world, because when you and I were kids, >> a phone wasn't as important to us. You know, it to a child now, they don't know any different. That's how they communicate with the world. It's how they consume their content. It's how they learn things. It's how they get through school. That's how they do everything is a phone or or some type of, you know, device. So taking that device from them, you know, might be your first thought, remove the problem completely, but then they're going to do things now because they're kids and they're they're that's what kids do.

100:53 They go behind their parents' back. That now you're going to have zero control over the situation. And and I think that it's important that your kids trust that they're not going to get in trouble for telling you the truth. Like let's say your kid was on a dating app, they might be terrified to tell you that. It would be terrified to say, "I went on this app and seen some inappropriate pictures and this guy sent me a message and he was a grown-up and you know he asked to meet up with me." They might be terrified to tell you because they don't want to get in trouble, have their phone or their Xbox or anything taken away because it's like taking their appendence. They're taking their arm from them, you know? It's not not the same as what it used to be. Yeah.

101:34 >> so absolutely I think that you you need to have this conversation with them and let them know they're not in trouble for it and and explain in the way you know whatever way you feel is appropriate to your child so they understand what is a sexual conversation, what is a dangerous person, what is a you know somebody who could potentially be grooming you into doing something that you know you can't get out of. sending a nude photo of yourself might be a scammer in Nigeria that's trying to get money from you or it could be somebody in a satanic cult that wants to see you, you know, really hurt yourself. I mean, unfortunately, I was doing a podcast and you know, immediately after the podcast was over, there was a 13-year-old girl hanging in a parking lot live on camera from an extension cord. and the people in the chat room were saying when she died, you know, it's like they do like I as a parent, if you tried everything you possibly could and something like sad like that happens, you know, you you tried your best and I'm sorry, it's the worst thing in the world, but at least at least exposing your kids in the way that you feel is comfortable as a parent, I think is extremely important. I just, I can't emphasize it enough. Like knowing it as the parent doesn't teach the kid and then you monitoring the kid from their devices using Bark or Custodia or whatever app you end up using. I'm not sponsored by any of them, but I like Bark. I think it's a really good one.

103:03 >> Oh, do you use I I use Custodio. >> Okay. Yeah, they're they're both good. Bark is my favorite, but >> it's a whole another conversation why. But >> they're they're both good. and that's one step above most people you're actually monitoring. But that isn't enough. It's not enough because if you're monitoring, you say, "Hey, I seen that you were talking to this person, which it could be, let's say it's bullying." Let's say it's no predatory behavior at all. It's just bullying or or they're depressed or, you know, whatever it is like self harm or suicidal ideation. Anything that triggers an alert in your, you know, administration panel as a parent. If you hit, you know, hit your kid up and say, "Hey, I I I seen that you were talking to Johnny and Johnny was being mean to you." Like, that may not be a big deal. But let's say they have a little boyfriend or girlfriend at school and now you're you embarrassed them in their brains. They're they're just gonna start talking to little Johnny on their friend's phone where they're gonna just, you know, use a computer or open a web browser on an Xbox or they're gonna find a way to get to not tr to not tell you because they don't trust you.

104:09 >> Yeah. they trust you enough to tell you without getting in trouble is a better way to put it, >> right? So they're always going to find a way around it if they don't feel they can trust you or they don't feel that you're you're going to hear them out. >> Exactly. Yeah. And that's something that I'll learn when I'm a father, which I don't. You know, I bet from the outside looking in and and seeing so many children that are victimized and parents that are victims themselves, I've learned this, you know, that a lot of like the number one thing that I know of is kids being scared to tell their parents. And and then there's a whole other conversation of of girls that are scared to come forward because they don't think people are going to believe them. And I'm sure you've heard that before, but that's a real real problem, you know. It's a real problem. And I I Yeah. So, I can't emphasize enough to have these conversations in the way that you see fit with your kid.

104:55 >> And I'll say like what you just said there is I I live that out with my daughters now. So, like we we have very very open conversations about this stuff. they do come to us when they see weird things or they maybe went to a site they shouldn't have. And I'm so thankful like God just has blessed us so much and that we can have those open conversations >> and that's essential. stuff like you're if you're not talking to your kids about this kind of stuff if you're not having those conversations and educating them do it now because you don't know what they're doing and they're going to find a way. You're right. Like they can just get their friends phones. They can go I don't know where they can go anywhere and get access to a computer >> and you don't have you don't have control of that computer. You can't monitor that computer.

105:33 >> Exactly. And you just got to hope that they're going to tell you truth. >> Yeah. If the if the truth ends up getting them, you know, they get, let's just use the the analogy, their arm cut off, they're not going to tell you the truth. >> Yeah. >> You know, losing their phone. They're not going to it's just there there's things that there, you know, it just aren't going to work, >> you know, and that's one of them.

105:53 >> So, what are the the biggest risks for kids right now? Like I know I' I've heard you talk about Roblox and maybe some other sites online. Yeah. What do you what do you think parents should be looking out for right now? I would say just social media in general and and like because I think it's all platforms. Roblox is a bad one. Of course, they have plenty of Predators. It's the largest kids game in the world.

106:15 So, of course, it's where the most predators are going to be. >> So, that thing we did in that site, you could theoretically do the same thing on Roblox right now. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have videos of people doing it on Roblox. I mean, it's it's it's repeatable on every site. That's that's the messed up reality of this situation is this is not a sight specific thing or area specific thing. This is a just a problem overall.

106:37 Doesn't matter what platform you're on. I could make those same results happen on on a Disney game. Like it's it can happen anywhere. >> Okay. So the the the antidote essentially is just education. We'll talk about >> Yeah. education is in my in my I'm sorry my brain. >> You're fine. You're fine. I think I think that out of arrest getting getting predators arrested, rings shut down, kids being rescued, I think the number one most impactful thing that I've ever done is educating parents and and awareness because you avoid the victim victimization from happening in the first place.

107:15 >> Yeah. >> Which, you know, I I would prefer any day. I I'd rather not be, you know, arresting or or having somebody arrested after they create victims. and not, you know, not always can it be prevented, but at least if you try everything you possibly can and you're aware of the risk, you can then educate your kids so that they can try to make good decisions as well. And I know that's going to be different with every parent. I can't I can't speak for every parent or every kid. But I can tell you it's dangerous on the internet. The internet's the future and every kid's got a phone or an iPad whether you gave them one or not. And they're going to use one. So, you just got to figure out what's going to work for you and be aware and not complacent just assuming that that everything's going to be fine, but not paranoid and and lose your mind over it either either. There should be a healthy balance that that you figure out internally. I I'm not your therapist, but I can tell you there's a problem on the internet you got to handle it.

108:06 >> Do you know? >> I have a I have another practical question. You know, you're talking about education specifically for your kids. >> Yeah, my kids are really young. like when when do you start having those conversations? Like when how young are the kids that are in these chats? >> So there's kids as young as six in these chats. I mean they're very young kids that I I think the better question because it's really my opinion at this point. When when would you start these conversations? Cuz I mine would just be an opinion answer. You have six daughters. Oh, >> I think as soon as they have access to any device where they can interface with other people, which >> what age do you think a kid should get a device?

108:46 >> So, I think every kid's different. That's a tough question to answer, you know? >> Yeah, it's like, you know, kid my kids get iPads when they're younger because we use it for school. They they they do reading and stuff, but like they we lock down the apps. There's there's no like they cannot have social media. My kids don't have social media at all. their friends do. I know that, but like we don't allow that. but we do have open conversations. But as far as like giving them access to social media, I don't think that's something I'll allow until they're out of my house. I think it's just not healthy.

109:14 >> I love that. >> Yeah, because it's there's not a lot of good that can come from it right now. >> Not even close. Yeah. >> Be social with your friends. Be in person. That's where that's the best social you can do. Go back in time a little bit. you know, well, it wasn't that long ago where we rode BMX bikes and scooters and, you know, played basketball and like, you know, I'm not I'm not even a sports guy, but like I remember going outside and hanging out with my friends now. I just see these these kids, they just sit around and they all sitting on phones in a circle.

109:41 >> It's a it's just a different world. But that is the world we live in and we have to adapt as well as adults. So, that's just how it's just how it is. >> Yeah. And I think yeah, for me it's it's not worth the risk. other parents h it's going to be it's going to be different because my kids are homeschooled so we we have a lot more control over what they experience and I know if they go to public school it's a whole different ballgame but moving on from that I'm curious like for you what has been your greatest victories with all this stuff we've heard a bunch of the negative things a bunch a bunch of the the seedy underbelly of the internet but like you've been doing a lot of work and I'm sure you've had some awesome stuff happen what's what's made it what's made it worth it for you >> so going back again to the the social media stuff I mean I had no idea what was going to happen when a one minute clip gets 10 million views in one night on a podcast that is like 400 followers at the time. Like it was just a complete, you know, miracle as we talked about earlier. but from there being able to connect with all the people I've connected with the network that I have now in to be able to execute on these things and to and you know to be aware of the risks out there and act on them in the way that I'm that I can which I'm I'm a little bit of word play there because I got to be careful.

110:53 >> Yeah. >> But I would not be able to do any of that without that one minute clip going viral like that. That is the beginning of it all. I wasn't trying to get internet famous. I just happened from a one minute clip and and I utilize that momentum to build that network. And it's not about me. It's not about like like people recognizing me in public and taking pictures with me and being whatever you want to call me. It's about the impact that I make when I when I let people know about these issues.

111:21 that's what makes it worth it to me. And that's the biggest thing that I've ever done. I could talk about arrests and and missions and operations overseas and training law enforcement and building this tool and building that tool and these gadgets for this and this and this one offshoot case that you know that I figured out. I could give you a million side quests, but the main one is educating people and having the the voice to be able to do it and people listening and and that is more of a blessing than anything I could ask for.

111:48 >> That's that's amazing. It's it's cool to hear that that's the biggest thing for you because that that has had the widest reach. Thank you. >> And it's and it's doing the the the the job it needs to that needs to happen before the thing happens, right? That >> Yeah. So many parents come up to me in public like and this think of the number if if you have them coming up to you in public saying, "Hey, I did this or this >> then the number is significantly larger of the people that you don't find." And and a lot of parents, they have stopped their kids from doing this or they've installed this on their phones or they've had conversations like like what we just talked about. They'll tell me all these steps that they've taken and some of them like one one parent implementing the whole thing with their school so to teach other parents and to share the message and it's like that wouldn't have happened if they didn't saw like trust my voice as well as see the video and that that for me is a huge accomplishment like even though it was an unintentional accomplishment now it's intentional now I'm intentionally trying to get in parents ears because this issue is that bad >> as as you see no but not every person watching this is going to know and they may have to watch other videos of made to see like wow this guy isn't making he's not some tin foil hot nut job this is really happening >> yeah% now I know you said you could talk about the other things like the missions and training law enforcement that is pretty cool so what are some of the best things out of that that you you can like put your name when I say I'm proud of that >> you mean like like operations and other places >> yeah like are there like I don't know like having kids that may like been rescued as >> you like we we pulled a bunch of kids out of Haiti and brought them back onto private private jets and you know helped house them. We we've you know one recently there was 59 arrests in this situation. you know I built a device that that is I'm sure you're familiar with you know devices broadcast their their their MAC address.

113:40 >> Yeah. >> so the device is essentially a spin-off of how my alarm system in my house worked. I made a little alarm that whitelist MAC address which now on iPhones they changed so it doesn't work as well as it used to but the alarm was whitelisted so all of the or allow list they changed the terminology for this so allow listed to all of the devices in my house and and if something came within BLE like Bluetooth proximity of my house I get a push notification on my phone that gave me the devices ID the signal strength RSI and you know and I would know somebody's on my property and what, you know, in some cases know what type of device it was. and so I thought of that idea and I was like, well, what about if we're doing, you know, doing a an actual operation and we show up at a door and we need to know if the house is occupied or not or what if there's 12 people in there? So, I built a little ESP32 device that just looks for MAC addresses and says, you know, in certain cases, like if they're older AirPods or an older MacBook, I can tell if there's like the left earbud taken out or the MacBook screens on the lock screen or it's not by just BLE advertisement packets. But, I made this little device that, you know, can say this house is empty or this house has a bunch of people in it, so be careful, you know. And then you hit the calibrate button and it goes back and and it starts to whitelist a bunch of addresses again. But >> that's amazing. Does that still work now?

115:04 >> Yeah. Yeah, that works. The alarm system doesn't work because MAC addresses change on the >> Right. Right. But you can come up to a house with that tool and you can with BL you can detect how many people are in there and can you see if you >> get a general idea idea? >> Well, yeah. And then you're not going to know exactly where they're at with BLE, but you can tell by signal strength if they're right by the door or they're not, you know, because it's a pretty pretty short range.

115:24 >> That's crazy. do you how do you get that tool? Do you have any of that technology open sourced or anything? >> I don't have it open source. I I I could technically open source it. cuz I don't think BL is going anywhere. But yeah, I mean it's a $4 chip. >> Right. Right. They're super cheap. >> Yeah. So it's very it's it's nothing. It's nothing expensive. It's just the idea that for whatever reason law enforcement didn't have prior.

115:48 >> So yeah, there's a bunch of cool things. >> We could probably spend hours and hours on stuff like that, but I know >> we probably got to go and I know you probably got to get to what you're doing today. we're going to have to do this again and and get deeper into the OSENT challenges and I want to start doing this for real. So, that'll be our next mission next time. >> I'm looking forward to that. And I think that if we had like a target for example, like you know, we come up with a challenge or something or we find a challenge like and I can walk you through that challenge.

116:15 >> I think that that'll be a little easier for me because then I can think like cuz ocean sometimes you're using search engine, sometimes you're using >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like Google dorking like Yeah. >> Yeah. So like Yeah. There's a bunch of tools out there I can name, but there are a bunch of companies that are going to love the promotion, you know. So, I'm trying to find the ones that aren't looking for money. So, I've been I named everybody except for except for one that you know, they're free. The only one of them's not. But, it's not any connection to me. so, that was just a tough question to answer because yeah, >> you know, I'm not trying to promote a million people, but when we find a target, you can choose whatever you want to put on your channel, you know.

116:52 >> Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. And it would create like a little oent challenge for people as we as we kind of build these skills up. That'd be kind of fun. >> Yeah. And I can do it with with if we going to get a little edgy. We could do it with a predator, you know, somebody that I've caught in the past and that was difficult for me. >> And then have them actually identify the guy. It's already convicted and so it's not like he's >> That would be sick.

117:12 >> Yeah. Like we know he's a predator. >> Yeah. We can do that. We'll make an ocean challenge with a predator that's tough to find. >> Okay. That's episode two. We're going to be deal. That's what we'll do. >> All right. Man, any closing words? >> hack the planet. >> Hack the planet. >> Yeah. And protect the children. >> Love that. All right, man. I appreciate you, dude. I appreciate you too, man. Awesome. >>