“The Next 50m fans will come from outside the US” | Brett Gosper

0:00 the opportunities to grow your fan base outside of the United States where we have quite a dominant position and the belief is that the next 50 million fans will come outside of the states. One big game in a market each year, you can create that big rock in the pond ripple effect and then build off it all around the rest of the year. Formula 1 is in that model. In many ways, the players tend to be interested in the globalization of the sport. I think there might be some envy around the way that the footballers have that global footprint that maybe some of the American players don't. We're given a license that's broader than the traditional European sports to do something which is not as traditional. And people come for that.

0:34 If you turned up to an NFL game in London or Paris and it wasn't like an NFL game in nature like the US, you'd feel I've missed out. This is not what I came for business. Fascinating. >> Thank you so much for joining us today. It is so great to have you in the studio. >> It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. >> Brett, this is our first venture into NFL. I think I said that to you when we spoken about which 130 in is quite frightening.

1:07 >> What does that mean? You've never had a conversation about NFL on this on this podcast. We had this thing at the beginning which was when you're talking about sport how broad you know do you go and the NFL has come up in so many conversations particularly now you know when we look at things like scarcity of games and the value of the product creating it centralized governance but we've never actually properly sat down and and had the conversation and when we had the chance to do it with you I I thought actually it was the perfect introduction to the sport because of what you're doing there and because of some of the experiences that you've had before. So, I'd like to say an easy breakin for those that need it, but also more than enough of an interesting angle for all of those that already love it, of which there are plenty in the audience. I guess I've having said that, you should probably explain a little bit about what you do with the NFL.

1:48 because it is probably one of the most exciting times for it in your category in particular. >> Yeah, it's it's a great time to be at the NFL. I've been lucky to turn up at the right time. my my role is I I look after geography. So I look after Europe and Asia Pacific essentially the big markets in Europe being UK, Germany, France, Spain, and some others. they're the places where we play games, where we play games tends to be a priority market of which we've got 12 in the world. and they'll look after some of the markets where we have offices and and and planning greater activity as we as we globalize a bit more like China, like Japan, like Australia and so on. International expansion is huge priority. Well, it seems to be a huge priority from the outside of it. And what we're really talking about here is sport that has built the strongest brand business property in sport in a very focused market, right? And now >> now the aim is is to take it abroad. So what are the what are the great opportunities that come with that and what are some of the challenges that you face?

2:56 Well, the opportunities to grow fan base outside of the United States where we, as you say, we have quite a dominant position in in in America, I'd say. whether it be from broadcast, sponsorship, fan fan engagement, and so on. And the belief is that the next 50 million fans will will come outside of the states. And that coincides with the globalization of the media platforms that are no longer just looking at what the US market can do for them, but they're very interested in having a global footprint. And these are the the streams that we all know. When you join, do they say the objective is we want to become one of the dominant sports? We want to have x million viewers. How does success look in your job?

3:37 >> We we'd like to be in the top three non-endemic. That usually takes football or Aussie rules if you're in Australia or the the most out of the picture broadcast popular sport in the country. And because we've done our analytics and our and our sums and we know that if you're in the top three or four, >> you get paid back on broadcast revenues over over a long period of time. You have to be patient. It's not going to happen overnight. And fortunately, we're private company owned by high net worth individuals that can play the long game and that helps a lot in what we're doing. We work out what those future revenues might be. But it's all around acquiring fans either turning casual fans into avid fans or acquiring more more casual fans at the base which feeds that process >> because the first international game if I'm correct was played in 2005 I think >> 2007 actually 20 years ago. Yeah. So 2007. Yeah. So So it's it's not a new >> that's the first regular season >> regular season game. Sorry.

4:31 >> Which was Wembley or >> Correct. >> So it's not it's not a brand new concept, right? This has been an objective for a while, but it does seem like it's been ramping up and this year we're going to have the most games played outside of America. It >> it's ramped up because there's been a few pivots there. There was obviously let's play some international games. Then there was earlier than that. Let's set up a European league in the '9s.

4:51 That European league mostly had German teams in it. Wasn't successful. financially. So, so the plug was pulled on it at at one point and in the early 2000 I think the objective then changed from okay that second tier league is not working what do we do now let's set ourselves up maybe for a franchise in a in a in a foreign market which kind of reeks of globaleness and we're more international and so so let's set up probably the UK because that's an easy lift for an American company if you like easier lift. So, it was all about let's work the media market, let's work the fan market, let's ensure that there's stadia that can host NFL games and an NFL team eventually. And that was kind of where I where where I arrived.

5:38 There was this feeling that a team was going to fall from the United States, probably the Jags because you'd put your money on that because they were playing at Wembley each year as well outside of the league's own rotational games. and that didn't happen in the end. They pivoted to to renovating their stadium. They they've set up their shop significantly in that market for the future. and so it's unlikely and it's complicated bringing a one team to to to the UK and and all of the complications that has in equalizing the fairness of the of the proposition is quite difficult. There were even conversations could be much easier to pull a division into Europe. You pull a division into Europe, you need four teams, they play off and then you probably relocate to Florida at the end of that season and so on. But that's an incredible lift in it and that's expansion. It means adding mouths to feed to the revenue model, which means you've obviously got to be bringing some revenue on board very quickly for the current owners to be willing to do that.

6:39 I'd say >> that too big a lift. And then I think the feeling was as we did the analysis around broadcast values and future values and so on and fan growth possibilities that actually one big game in a market each year and more if in some cases like London you can create that big rock in the pond ripple effect and then build off it all around the rest of the year. Formula 1 is in that model in in many ways and so on. Therefore, you can expand broadly much faster and and engage with those markets in different ways. It doesn't mean one day we might not come back to a a franchise in another market model, but this is a great way of preparing a more a more global market in a in a more significant way. I think >> it's probably the first step though, isn't it? Because as while it makes a lot of sense, of course, to say, "Hey, if we've got all this interest, we want to grow the sport, we can set up a new league and do all that." It sounds lovely, right, if you just sit and have a conversation about it. But the reality is this is a sport that doesn't have a grassroots ecosystem, an infrastructure ecosystem. You need that to happen to be in place to be able to properly run that because the product the most important thing I imagine about the NFL is the quality of the product. You cannot have something that is NFL driven of the quality of is top level.

7:51 >> And I don't think fans want to see second division version of of of a major brand. You they want to see the best of the best and the best of the best of regular season games. And I think you're right as well that the base of the participation of the sport outside of America is not as strong as it as it could be in order to to generate the athlete quality that you'd want in that in you know spread across Europe.

8:13 >> Does that sorry does that mean then we will always have US NFL teams coming to Europe to play not domestic American football teams and leagues set up in Europe. >> I think you'll have those set up in Europe and they are and they're there. I'm just not sure the NFL will invest in that so much. Maybe they'll invest as a as a as an investment, but not not not as a driver. and there is a growth in participation because there's a sport called flag football now, which is the non-cont version American football, which is America, which is a an Olympic sport in Los Angeles and which is growing at a clip around the world, men and women. And that is feeding a kind of assembly line of players that both will have a career in flag whether they go to the Olympics or play pro league which we've invested in in the states or whether a lot of those say I'm now going to play tackle football. So but we're in the early days of that growth but eventually that might provide the participation infrastructure that that you need to have a much stronger local or European or regional American football league. So the flip side of that, while it makes a huge amount of sense, is I would imagine the protectionism you need to put in place to not corrupt what's actually made the NFL so successful in its really core market. And while that makes sense makes sense internationally, you will of course have fan bases domestically that will then totally look at this as going well why are our games moving abroad?

9:37 Why >> that that sport, right? And you see what happens the minute it's mentioned in football. I mean everyone goes completely whether it be Spain, Germany, the UK, it is delicate with the fans because the fans are owners of sorts of of of those leagues and so yeah they get very sensitive about we've been fortunate in the sense that where we've increased the number of games in international it's coincided with sliding a game that's in the practice season into the into the real season. So we went from 16 regular season non-player games to 17 when we moved to eight games a year internationally and and if we move further then the conversation and we've seen the commissioner talk about this is the possibility of moving to 18 games. So the fans in a way don't feel they're losing a a game. It's it's it's incremental.

10:25 >> Do players want this? We see a lot of debate in football about the congestion of calendars too much in terms of pure activity and also travel times. the players want it because the toll on them is real too. >> Yeah, it's well again if we move to 18 games that would be the max. So it's not a congested still a rarified season versus other leagues and so on. the players tend to be interested in the globalization of the sport and the growth of revenue in the sport as well because they're directly related to that growth in in revenue. A fixed percentage of of of revenues go to the players each year. they also like to further their possibilities global superstars at the high end of that player player area.

11:10 There's I think there might be some envy around the way the the the footballers have that that global footprint that maybe some of the American players don't. But generally speaking, they like the experience of playing in international. I'm not sure they think about it a huge amount, but when they actually get on the plane, come across, play the games, and experience a different atmosphere in Sonia, they tend to be very positive in how they talk about it after it happens.

11:32 >> Yeah. I mean it was on the fan side. It was interesting because I actually just from my own interest had a look at some of the comments and obviously you're always careful where people do post comments. The majority of fans that were struggling with games moving internationally. It came down to timing. So the timing of matches rather than taking away from maybe being able to attend and it that got me thinking about just the different markets really that we're talking about because the American sports market is still very very different to how we operate a lot of our sports here. We think about a lot of our sports purely fandom driven where in America there's always an understanding I think a little bit more of the commercial element the business element of it and therefore the challenge maybe is making sure or to try and align it from hey if we can at least consume the game I'm not overly concerned about where it is because of the broader geography of America being far less receptive to just being able to turn up to your local game and go and watch it >> still on their time zone it's still on their viewing period and we're driven by the viewing habits of Americans because of the revenue that's generated by the the broadcast deals in the United States. We don't have Europeanzoned or Asianzoned games for those local markets. When we play, they are we will play in Melbourne in September >> at 10:30 a.m. in the morning Melbourne time on a on a weekday.

12:45 >> Is that a bit weird? >> For who? >> Melbourneites are happy. >> Yeah. On a week. >> We'll be filling the mcg of 100,000 people on a work day at f on a Friday at 10:30. But in, you know, meanwhile in America, that'll be Thursday night football and and away we go. So, >> not a schooner sold at 8 a.m., right? So, but not all markets are like, if you try to do that in Japan, you'd be playing in front of an empty audience. So, you have to you have to cross it over with with, you know, something something local. There's a belief obviously there's cricket that's played in the morning in Australia and they played during work days and so on, but in in Japan, they they probably won't view a game early than midday. I certainly won't view it on a work day.

13:25 Doies kind of get NFL is quite stop starty and Aussie rules for a comparable continuity flow real >> difference. I mean it's like everything it's it's challenging aspect of it is a complicated sport and I was in rugby before and that's a complicated sport for those who are football or rules follows and so on. >> But it's getting people into it giving them a simple door. You got four chances to get 10 10 meters. That's all this game's about. And then once they get through that first door, the rest becomes fascinating strategy and it picks up. And we put on a million and a half fans in Australia in the last two and a half years.

14:05 >> Million fans. >> Yeah. And we've got an office out there and we we've got a game there and there's been a lot of hype around that. But there's a huge following in Australia. I mean, it's 7 and a half million or so casual fans. By the way, there's about 18 million in the UK on the same panel basis. Fans interested in self-declared. I'm interested in NFL. Quite soft as an entry point. Then you've got the Avid fan group which is very interested in the NFL and so and that's that that's really the fan section that we're interested in, but they come from that larger pool of casual fans.

14:38 >> So, how do you choose which teams go and play? Because from a branding perspective, I imagine when you've got all these fans, that's a huge opportunity for for the teams that do get a chance to go and move into these markets to own part of those regions. Like as you mentioned the Jags have been so consistently on the ground here. >> I mean it's to do with scheduling and matchup of games and broadcast audiences in the states and so on. It often drives that to a certain extent but increasingly those games are higher quality internationally. Fewer games are allowed to be protected now and there's a much more belief we need as the as these markets become more mature or sophisticated the the matchup counts in London. you'll sell good matchups and you won't sell bad matchups. Whereas in a new market, it's the NFL will turn up because it's fresh and new and so on. So, we we look to see which markets like which teams, not always consistent. which for some reason some teams resonate better in certain markets, but they all have to receive or host a game twice over an 8-year period in the in the current rotation. And then you work out who's the matchup we're going to put with them. and and the economics of those games. Is that then kind of centrally pulled and distributed evenly or does it is it weighted towards some of the teams that get to to play?

15:54 >> It's not weighted. It's equally distributed. So, in other words, if you lose a game, you're going to lose some money, but over the 8-year period, it's going to come out in the wash equally. Around about 80% of the NFL club revenues are shared equally. So, it's a it's it's a very equal process of of of equalizing over that 8-year period. How does like P&L work for international versus domestic? Do you >> Same PNL? >> Same P&L.

16:17 >> I mean, we could obviously work out what what comes from international and what what comes from domestic, but >> you know, we're all >> and so I'm I'm really sorry. I'm very naive when you choose Wembley for a Jags game. >> That's Jags that choose Wembley, by the way. That's that's a non that's the only non-league run international game. And that shifted over the last couple of years. That's the Jags historically working London, their fan base in London and for their own business interest wanting to bring a game to London each year over time. So that's really their model and their decision to take a home game to London. Whereas the international games, all of the other international games are are league managed and run.

16:58 >> Okay. So when you look at a game that's in Spain or you choose another country, >> who owns the economics of that? If I I didn't >> the league office the NFL league office owns the economics of it and that will be therefore is centrally redistributed equally back whether it be profit or loss and it's profit back to the teams over that period. So >> well so even for the first time you play somewhere you'll run them at a profit because I would expect you to run them at >> what they become more profitable over time because it takes you a while to get used to how you actually work that stadium versus what the game would have made in profit in the United States. and the and the figures are are much higher still in the United States because those clubs are very used to working out how they how they they manage their revenues versus games you'll play once a year in a certain market and >> can I ask you what have you learned about American commercial exceptionalism that what they do well that isn't obvious coming from outside of America >> I I think there are fewer sacred cows I think that they when you go to a game or a Super Bowl or or or whatever. It's a total immersive entertainment experience. You say the stop start because you're looking at from a sports point of view, but if you're in a stadium in America, no one thinks it's stop start. And if you're watching TV, gives you a chance to do other stuff and and and so on. So the Americans don't see it as a stop start. They see it as a full afternoon of entertainment and you've got three hours of it. More that's kickoff to final whistle. But I I think it's just that there's no restrictions.

18:33 it tradition, what we would call sporting tradition is less sacred in a way. It's all driven to what's going to surprise delight and and please that audience non-stop and their interaction whether it be on screen in the stadium together is blurred the way they have those infinity screens like we saw SFI Stadium during World Cup and so I mean you saw the the the quality of the of the stadia in America they're ensuring that your experience in stadia is at least as good as your experience at home on on broadcast. and it is incredible.

19:06 >> It's the most common thing isn't it? While you again I say while we haven't specifically maybe focused on the NFL on the show in a one-on-one conversation, it is the continual point of reference when we're talking about other sports >> establishing themselves better commercially looking at how to engage with fans. But it's far too simplistic to say, "Oh, look at what they do. >> You can just do it again." It doesn't work like that. And it's 100 years of history. Like like it wasn't always as as unified and as synchronized and as entertaining. You often hear the expression NFL we stand on the shoulders of giants. it's evolved to a very strong position.

19:38 >> One of the key things that comes up to where some of the value lies and we often fall foul of this in in how we view things these days is we think more is is better. the more is value all of this and and again the NFL's scarcity if we want to call it that 17 game regular season plus then potential playoffs that is very few games compared to again use football or even rugby and you know as cricket now as a point of reference I mean >> and NFL are very conscious of that and they're very aware that they're not pushing to increase their inventory they know that that's quality that they have in terms of that that that scarcity and specialness of of and the limited numbering I can't see them going beyond 18 regular season games.

20:20 >> Have you seen the value of that? Do you see that as a key driver of value of the product in in >> Definitely. I think I think the NFL definitely see sees it that way and that intense period of a season is is one of its high quality and high value elements. >> Again, so it's very unique, isn't it? I mean, you said to us actually just just before because the NFL in essence, right, owns kind of the American football professional ecosystem rather than having a federation that sits at top and governs lots of different leagues.

20:44 >> Correct. This is a unique sporting institution in the fact that it has so much centralized influence and control over what happens that it can pretty much make sure that >> the expansion areas are managed properly that >> that that's right. It's it's totally in control of its own fate, existence and success. Yeah. >> I'm so sorry. What just for people's context, what do does the NFL do total? >> Okay. Well, ballpark sponsorship and broadcast for the for the for the league office is probably around the 15 billion. It's public. it's publicly known and so on. And then probably the club's gate and sponsor would add another 10 billion to that. So probably the ecosystem of the NFL is around 25 billion US I'd say a year.

21:25 >> I mean just you know for for anyone that listens regularly and that that's how extraordinary that business. >> How does that compare to FIFA? >> FIFA made probably 13 14 billion at this cycle four years. So, so it's probably >> four years four years four year cycle >> and you're saying 25 billion per year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> wow. >> Which is why it's you know the as fast as international grows it will be it will be difficult percentage-wise. Over time it'll happen but not while I'm here.

21:57 >> Yeah. >> But in absolute terms there's a there's a there's a very high growth target set and we're meeting those targets. But again, I it's kind of like you can you move the games to actually bring something straight to to the audience, but really you're still selling the broadcast deals of the domestic, let's call it US games to international. That's what you want. You want you want the international audience buying in to that core league because you're still >> correct.

22:20 >> It's a marketing arm, please. sorry to be able to bring the teams into the into the geographies, but really the needle mover, as you said, is for you to then be able to broke a significant broadcast deal in those markets for the regular season of 270 odd games. >> Correct. Correct. Over time, you're you're you want to build a strong enough fan base that are engaged enough that will show up in your broadcast viewing figures and will raise your values of broadcast deals that are done over time in the markets outside of America. right now what's the biggest in it's like singular is the UK biggest >> actually not big broadcast markets outside of is Canada obviously for obvious reasons >> Germany >> Mexico UK and and and and then and then on it goes yeah >> Brazil growing I mean we we're where we're playing games tends to be where those markets have been prioritized we're now playing games and have offices in not playing games in Canada but office in Canada Mexico we're playing games Brazil We're playing games.

23:22 Germany, Spain, France, UK, Australia, and soon other other Asian markets. >> Can you tell us about the you mentioned the total revenue, but tell us about what is very unique in some of the way that sponsorships and merchandise, etc. are managed from an NFL perspective to to tee you up, I guess, set it off. no >> nothing necessarily on the front of shirt to to drive a value the way that other people are used to seeing commercialized sports and a centrally negotiated and managed Nike partnership for all of kit. So again looking at other sports and how they all generate money independently how the NFL has done it to create that value is slightly different. I I think on the on the sponsorship, what's incredible is how things are sliced up and different territories are created for different brands that give them a space to give them visibility and engagement with their own fan group or new fans.

24:15 the there are I wish I could remember the the number, but I remember we're looking at our games and saying, "Okay, there must be some other territories of sponsorship that we can use out of Super Bowl." And I think I can't remember how many it was, but it was something like 250 different spaces versus we had about 50 in in our international games. And therefore, we're leaving money on the table because there were there were there were lots of other opportunities for sponsors to come in and own a certain element of that experience. And so I think the way the NFL has taken experiences or events and turned them into experiences, the draft, kickoff, all of you, Thanksgiving, now Christmas on Netflix and so on. The the way the NFL can just turn a schedule of activities into incredibly engaging moments for the fans, sponsorable or or marketable is what they're very very good at. It's kind of back to the scarcity piece on games, but you know, you if you're not selling absolutely everything that's potentially available to you, >> you create more value when the opportunities do arise.

25:19 >> That's it. That's it. >> Okay. Good. Good feed into that is you mentioned it earlier, the value of the athlete in this day and age. You know, we've >> got an environment now which is so much about the individual as much as it is about the team. >> You mentioned their appetite to be more and expand more and the opportunities that international games brings them. I guess from a commercial perspective, from your perspective as a league, being able to leverage some of that exposure is hugely valuable to you as much as it is to them.

25:47 >> It's hugely important for us and in the social media, you know, we're working with our athletes all of the time, giving them materials, teaching them how to use social media in the right way and so on because we know whether it be the league's platforms, the club platforms or the players platforms, the most powerful of those three elements is the athlete player platforms. they are they they amplify the messaging far more. So that is the best podium for us if we're engaging with fans. That's what fans are interested in more than the other two areas.

26:14 >> Do they do it independently? >> They do it independently but with a lot of help from us in terms of of of content of when is a good time to go, what are the subjects you you can you can talk about. So they've all got their own personalities, but they're being they get a a great deal of support in content and approach from the league itself and from their clubs. You you you came as chief executive of World Rugby, right? It must have been a fascinating transition from you and the different types of sporting environments and how these organizations work particularly as we've said with the American model at the center of this.

26:50 >> Yeah, it was very different. a federation is very different to a league to begin with. So it's very it's it's hard to compare them. In what way? Just for people a federation is very oriented towards participation because a lot of their local federations get funding from governments because of how many people are competing in that or participating in that sport in their country. It's very regulatory. It almost most of these federations began as legal entities to regulate the game. So they don't really think about the fan aspect or the fan engagement aspect. And I think world rugby transitioned during the period I was there. Not saying I was the only one driving it, but very much transitioned from regulation as a priority to to inspiration a lot more. It's a much more fragmented sport because you've got different entities managing whether you got six nations, you've got leagues, you've got so you can't do everything that you want to do. Whereas the NFL is a hermetically sealed business operation laser focused on on on fan growth. And to be fair, in all the meetings, I mean, there's rarely conversations about money. It's all about fans. What can we do to please them? What can we do to engage them?

27:57 What can we do to to bring them in? And and people know that that's going to show up as revenue at some point. It's a very different environment. I said to you before, in many ways, I'd have done a better job, I think, as CEO of World Rugby had I done this job better because I think the understanding and the sophistication with which they go about fan acquisition and and pleasing their fans is second to none. And it's been a great school for me even at my late age.

28:22 >> >> Every football team sports speaks about like fan engagement saying they haven't cracked it. They don't know their fan. Has the NFL cracked fan engagement that relationship in a way that football teams haven't? >> I I don't know if even the NFL would say we've cracked it, but they are cracking it. It's a an ongoing process. You never feel that you've quite, you know, got it. Have you got enough fans in your database? Are you talking to them in the right way? Are they transacting with you? Are those fans where's the bridge between those fans that you that you're collecting data for and the ones actually watching and viewing who are actually generating 70 to 80% of your revenue. And so, no, I I I don't think the NFL's got everything worked out, but they certainly know where they're headed and know what they're looking for. And I think that's probably where they've got an advance on on maybe a lot of other entities. Having had the experience that you had outside of the NFL, I've talked about the obsession that we often have with transition and trying to take out the bits. What bits do you think you could lift from seeing how successful this business has been into a sport like rugby, into a sport like football to to bring in some of that value recognizing that it is a very different environment to how this American system? Yeah, I just think it's having a fan first view of everything that every time you suggest an idea or generate one. It's with the fan in mind. And it's that obsession on making sure so, you know, like in in in a in a consumer business being cliententric or or or customercentric or consumercentric or whatever. And I just think that everything we do at the NFL is about what's that going to mean for the fan?

29:58 How's that going to how's that going to translate as the fan enjoying that, liking it, wanting to pay more for it, wanting to pay something for it, and being involved with it. It's more the prism through which you look and then that generates the ideas and the thinking and so on. >> What's an example in another sport where a fan is not put first for the benefit of a business just for people listening for me genuinely?

30:21 >> Ticket pricing. >> Yeah, ticket price. I mean, the ticket pricing is a thing that comes up a lot particularly in football. But the flip side of that which is where the US side supply and demand you you have a huge demand for a lot of these matches live in attendance. Could you raise the price to Yeah, of course you could. But at the same time that you're likely then to get far more people coming in for a game from a let's say a tourism perspective than you are from getting the hardcore fans who have been there for 30 years.

30:47 That is a trade-off that you have to to make a decision on. >> You're also a different sort of fan in America as well though too. And I think that's a and >> what do you mean by that? I I think there's a fan in America that wants to be sold to, that wants those opportunities, wants those choices. But I think sometimes the fan in Europe is a little bit more conservative and a little bit more purist. And I'm exaggerating to make a point. This is about the sport. This is about why they selling me this or why they so you're dealing with a conservatism to a certain extent in in the landscape in in in Europe that aren't used to the commerciality that perhaps an American fan demands. not just sees but actually expects that's a different environment.

31:27 >> Yeah. I mean a perfect sorry you asked for an example I guess you you could say a really good example of that question where was the fan first the halftime show at the World Cup. Is that for a football fan? Now football is just built so differently to the concept of maybe halftime shows. >> Well I'd love to ask the American audience what they thought of the halfime show because definitely it rubs up. A halftime show as a concept almost in football ruffles feathers a bit.

31:52 Generally in sport we hate change right people just don't enjoy change in these particularly purist I have this argument all the time with the hundred with cricket you know cricket fans will come to me and go because we talk about that a lot oh I hate the hundred and it's not cricket have you been no I refuse to go well genuinely like how can you comment last night on the TV you had pretty full oval for a for 100 game and >> Sunday night >> on a Sunday night I'm thinking wow that's that's incredible so if it's doing that >> they're finding their own register of entertainment and sport and getting that balance right. But for each audience, you've got to get the balance right. If you go too far one way, then you'll you'll lose your audience.

32:28 >> But that's what I'm saying. You know, you in a way have like that hardest job because does the non US audience automatically buy into all of that because it's from a US? >> Yes. Is the answer. There's we're given a license that's broader than the traditional European sports to do something which is not as traditional. So, and in many ways, this is a bit of an experiment area for the NFL as well in what they can do and what they can put on in in other markets, but >> there's a there's a license to do as you do in America here and people come for that. If you turned up to an NFL game in in London or Paris and it wasn't like an NFL game in nature like the US, you'd you'd feel I've I've missed out. This is not what I came for.

33:09 >> I'm being short changed. >> Yeah. But at the same time, we try and also create some local personality around what we do and acknowledge, you know, some things which link us and make us more culturally relevant in that market. >> It pains me to say it as a Chelsea fan, but the Tottenham stadium is incredible, right, for lots of different reasons, but the NFL element, planning for the hosting of games was such a huge part of what this stadium offers. Do you think tying in and integrating the opportunities to host these games starts to influence infrastructure plays across Europe? So Spurs now, right, they are they have a fantastic NFL suitable ready.

33:45 >> It's an NFL stadium. It is is the only NFL stadium purpose-built in Europe. >> Therefore, I'm looking at the value of Spurs total collective. That's significantly gone up because I am capable of hosting. I'm now associated with >> Yeah, I think that's the biggest sporting league in the world. >> And I think that's why it's a good partnership with Tottenham. They get something out of it. We get something out of it and and it's a very very strong partnership and >> it's a fabulous stadium for us to to to to perform our our games in. Yeah.

34:14 >> And across Europe. >> Well, you have to each each city you have to go to where you feel the experience is going to be best for our our consumers. We haven't walked up to one and thought no. >> We've walked up to a lot of those. Well, we've not we've usually not chosen them though for that for that reason. But no, no, we're very careful. We have a football operations group that go in and work out viability. We work out the attractiveness of playing in that stadium. We also work out what's what's a good relationship to have with the people who occupy. So, Real Madrid's probably the biggest club in football worldwide in terms of it fan base.

34:50 >> You play at the Burnabal. >> We play at the Burnabal. So, we play at the Burnabal for the first time last year. We'll play again this year. We play in the Bayern Munich stadium. It's the first time a non-foot event was held. Had to be voted by the Munich Parliament. So, these have got to be stated because we do quite a bit of work on them to make sure the the changing rooms are big enough cuz you've got >> What needs to change? Mainly changing rooms.

35:11 >> You got 53 changing room. >> The the nonplaying elements of the touring party don't fit into a normal football dressing room, let alone the players themselves. You normally got to replplum, knock down a few walls, put in more showers, and and >> Are you serious? >> You got to replplum. >> You replplum, put more showers in, you know, but you do that. You hope you come back the next year and you advertise that number doing that.

35:37 >> Not at first, but then they they they genuinely come. >> Yeah, we do. That's very polite. You >> imagine the football team going back in and going, >> exactly showers. >> We see it as helping them improve their infrastructure. >> Mel, the kit, man. I was here for 20 years and then the NFL came. >> That's right. That's right. >> Well, no, the good thing about it is it's only expanding and it's not taking anything away from the culture, right?

36:00 >> So, and also it's a little bit of a of a of a promise we'll be back, you know, >> and anything else? The change rooms get bigger. Anything else? >> Change rooms get big. You've usually got to extend the field a few meters at each end. usually playing surfaces are all a big discussion point and so on >> which was really sorry that I mean I guess poorly asked but that was a point of part of the previous question of now when you have big new infrastructure builds a core part of the business plans of major sporting powers in Europe.

36:28 these stadiums will start to incorporate this instead of being able to host >> to totally because it gives them the option and you also need a certain sized spectator bowl because you want to pass the break even and start to to to make it >> surpass break even. >> You probably need 60,000 plus really 60,000. >> Yeah, you probably need that sort of audience. So that's probably the kind of we've done it in less but generally you you want to be around the 60. Also for the fan experience you want to be in a big stadium as well. What stadium have you never done it in that you would love to do it in?

37:02 >> the MCG, but it's going to happen. >> Yeah, that'll be that would be >> MCG is going to happen in September, so that >> must be a special moment for you. >> That Well, I'm from Melbourne, so it actually is is quite a special moment, but it's also again quite in that town. It's the heartbeat of the of the city and it's just a big, you know, >> and you won't need to expand the pitch much on there, will you? That's a nice thing. It's a different footprint. Completely different footprint. But they play rugby tests and FIFA football, you know, qualifications there and stuff. So it'll it'll be it'll be brilliant. But that'll be that that would be would have been my wish had it not already been granted. But it hasn't happened. So that's the that's the one.

37:38 >> But you know, like suddenly now you can look you could go, okay, Italy, that could be a challenge now just because the infrastructure in Italy famously, right, has been challenging to >> Well, they're renovating some stadiums and and all of that. So that's all possible in the future. Yeah, >> but it's you know you can tie that in now as you look at this be ambitious with some of those stadia going >> well Real Madrid they were in renovation when they contacted us about >> you know we'd like to make this NFL fitness and so on so they they were although things needed to be done after they finished that they were kind of swimming in the right direction when they did their renovations on that it's an incredible stadium the Bernabau >> the new one I mean >> it it looks like someone landed a spaceship in the middle of right in the middle of Madrid >> have you seen I was thinking then just about rugby stadium Williams and and experience have you seen is it too simple to say that just the nature of the sports maybe you know being like that high contact high intensity heavy have you seen a crossover of fan bases being a slightly easier one for you to capture of those fans really keen to engage with the NFL having some form of rugby >> yeah look I mean we often get that compar because you don't have that in Germany for example you've just got football and then there's and actually probably top three handle but probably NFL is probably the next >> yeah really >> broadcast viewing it's in the or three in that market which is not in many other markets outside of the US other than Canada, Mexico perhaps. and people ask the question about France for example, they say but aren't you going to find it hard to get because rugby is so big there? We say yeah but it's big in England too. It's not a problem in England. So I don't there's no there's no in a way it's not if if there's rugby you're more likely to do well if there's not rugby more. I don't think there's a a religious I tend to think it helps because I think rugby people who are into rugby are interested and curious about they may not be a major fan but they're willing to look because you can't not look at someone tackling and being tackled >> if you like rugby. So, but maybe it scratches the itch already that you don't need American football to scratch.

39:34 But it's a hard one. We don't have data on that. But I think that the barriers aren't there either way whether there is or isn't rugby. Did you come in as a fan of the sport when you started working or was this quite clean a casual fan? >> Yeah, I I I would have said I was a casual fan. I I had a team. I watched it a bit, but I was that enccconed in rugby that didn't have that much room for other sports in winter anyway, even even football to a certain extent.

39:59 >> And have you found yourself from now going like wow >> and I will always be an avid. If I left the NFL this week, >> I'd continue to be an avid fan of NFL. >> Who do you support >> in in NFL? >> Can't say. No, he actually can. They they all all I think unless you're the commissioner, you can't. >> Yeah, >> but but everyone in the mix has a has a I'm actually unfortunately a a Jets a New York Jets supporter. I say unfortunately because they they haven't won a lot recently and so >> yeah.

40:25 >> Who owns the Jazz? >> Woody Johnson owns the the the Jets. >> Woody >> Johnson and Johnson. >> Yeah, it's so so he was an ambassador to US ambassador to the UK for a period and and it's the Johnson family that owned >> the Jets. But I I was a rugby player. We toured America and I was playing with the Rasing in Paris and we toured America and they did a big article in the New York Times on the Rasing coming to New York and they said they're like the Jets.

40:50 Don't know why but I going to support the Jets. >> It's a the ownership structure around it. I don't know how much you get exposed to it or >> you get exposed a lot to it. >> The a fascinating side of it right especially in Monsport where you know for example private equity was only allowed to invest in it for the first time a few years ago. You've got all 32 owners are US owners. Traditionally, it's been, you know, as you said, like families that have have had these organizations. What's strong about that?

41:19 >> Stability, longevity of and of of decision- making and and that shared revenue also means we're all in the same bath and we're going to row in. It's a bad analogy. Everyone rose in the bath >> in some extended change rooms. wasn't in this bar. >> But yeah, they make they make their decisions as you say in that group. They come together in committees about four times a year and twice a year all 32 in in the same room and you go and you present in front of that audience and it's quite nerve-wracking.

41:52 >> in front of all of them >> there's not a room like it. So each club in those meetings bring in three people usually two owners, one CEO or or whatever. But when you present to that group, and I've presented over the years to a lot of different group, you do have your heart and your throat to be because it's an impressive, you know, impressive bunch of very successful people. >> How do you prepare for that?

42:16 >> just with anxiety and trepidation and whatever, but you you prepare is the is the point. You prepare and you make sure and and everyone does. the league officers managing those meetings and they're running the show and who's presenting what and what are we selling and what are we telling and and it's quite a production. >> Of all the presentations, the speeches, all of that that you've had to do as a top executive, what was the one that you you genuinely felt the most?

42:39 >> Oh, the worst I had to do was to sell a leasing agreement that the Jags had done with Wembley. And I kept saying, I'm not I'm not a leasing guy. I'm not a law, you know. No, no, you're the man. you're going to go in and tell them exactly what this leasing agreement was all about or because all of the leasing agreements of all the cups have to pass through the league office and so on. So that was one that I prepared every inch that anyone was going to ask me any questions about the leasing agreement between the the Jags and Wembley. I was going to but no one asked the question unfortunately. So >> do you think opening up to private equity is good for the NFL?

43:15 It it must be because they they voted for it and that's what the collective wanted and that's what they voted for because these things are voted upon. You got a yeah timeline which is which is very different. Suddenly you've got a six or seven year timeline rather than a a generational timeline for a family and so on. But these are small percentages of of the ownership >> ensuring that you basically you can never lose any of the >> control and management is retained and the influence retained. Will we have a 20 billion team in 10 years time?

43:45 >> Very possible. Yeah, I'd have thought that was possible, but again, I'm not a financial expert. >> If you go to the revenue, right, again, how you how do you value these entities in the first place? You highlighted the opportunities that continue to exist both in a domestic market and being lazy saying, "Oh, it's saturated domestically." It's not at all. You're making far more maybe from a fan, but not commercially. >> Not commercially. then that price can keep going up because hey at the moment sports teams on the whole whether rightly or wrongly and a lot of people have opinions on this are generally valued on multiples of revenue.

44:13 >> Sure. >> So I mean the Cowboys I think the Cowboys are they generate the most of any sports in just ahead of Real Madrid >> but even revenue wise but but it's interesting in >> that size. I mean I always think you you may agree in sport I it's fascinating because you have these massive global brands but as revenue businesses they're actually nowhere near the size of their brand. I mean, the Cowboys did just over a billion last year, Real Madrid the same. But you think about >> the brand, the brand, the way the brand, it seems like it's much more inflation.

44:41 >> It's incredible. Scarcity value has to keep coming back into it. Now you get a chance to own part of an NFL franchise. It's >> And that's part of the attraction. >> Quick fire. >> Yeah, go for it. Yeah, go for it. >> What's the single best experience you've had in a stadium? >> I think the opening closing, you know, I'm going back in time here. Opening closing ceremony of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics. Wow. There you go.

45:03 >> Why? >> Just because it was a it was creative directed by Steven Spielber Spielberg for a start. So, you know, it's going to be good. But it was just the most incredibly creative and entertaining close opening and closing of Olympic games I've seen. I've seen quite a few of those. >> Sporting >> I think that I think and I'm going to entertainment more sporting here, but London opening London opening ceremony was fabulous too. The London Olympic ceremony in 2012 was extraordinary.

45:27 >> Yeah, it was. >> Yeah. So, you're taking NFL, you're talking about NFL to someone in Europe that's never seen it before, that doesn't know what it is. If you're trying to like say the reason why someone should watch it or or be engaged with it, what would you say? I I think the athletes mainly I don't think there are better athletes in the world. Conditioned, speed, solidity, every aspect of athletism you're going to see in a game of of American football that you that you might not see in other sports is the is the first thing I'd say. I'd also say it is an acquired taste and you have to understand a certain amount. So if you're not allowing yourself to understand the the mere basic of it, you're never going to get fully into it.

46:12 >> But just allow yourself to get into that first step. Got four attempts to get 10 yard 10 meters. It's yards in America. but yeah, so it it's I I wouldn't lead with a halftime show because I think that's >> the cherry on on a on on a cake. >> Did the NFL with expansion in mind? Put any like additional budget or whatever to creating a content series like YouTube videos, etc. around explaining the NFL. We do all of that. We we have whether it be on the big screen in those games that are played internationally, whether it be on YouTube, there are all sorts of not titled the dummies guide, but the beginners to guide or whatever to to to getting into American football. We do a lot of that and it's important and flag football is going to help that a lot too because that's going to become far more ubiquitous and that will help people just see, oh, I see you every time they throw it and they gain yards, they get another chance to do that, so on, etc. And it's very simple in that sense. Once you get past that gate, everything else becomes interesting learning.

47:10 >> Who would do better, an American football player playing rugby or a rugby player playing American football? >> Probably the American footballer playing rugby is my view because we've seen a lot of rugby players try to break into the NFL and have not succeeded in in doing that. It's very difficult. It's very technical. doesn't look it maybe to the outside of it. Lemon, you know, Christian Wade, lots of these players who are magnificent athletes.

47:41 >> and they they did well, but they didn't break into it at the level that they they they did with rugby. You don't see it happening the other way so much because the money's too big, >> which leaving the river flows more to to >> that's your daily salary yearly. Oh my god. >> It's like your change room's so small. Exactly. >> So I I could you could see so many American athletes whether it be you know wide receivers running backs >> you know line offensive linemen whatever they all find their spot in rugby in a in a in a significant way I think. So do you think those core skills a Louis ream let's say right for the technical physically incredible speed obviously has to have the strength to play certain positions but if you're looking at that technicality piece it's it's very hard you never say impossible it's very hard to pick up that technicality if you haven't had >> exactly if you haven't grown up with it these kids are baked through high school through college and then into the NFL and just to turn up and we've got an international player pathway where we're trying to create these these athletes and some of them do make it through.

48:52 tend to be the less technical positions and they do break through and they spike interest in the countries where those people come from and so which is why we do it and we have an academy in the in the UK for European young athletes to become NFL players which over time some of them will u but generally it's not an easy task for that transfer to happen and as a as a former rugby player and as a guy out of the rugby I thought it would be a much easier thing oh he's good he'll do well there it's not as easy as that >> is having more international players come into the NFL a metric of success.

49:23 >> Yes. Yes. For us it is. We're trying to create more international like like the Premier League like like the NBA like it breeds interest in those markets those players come from. It's but we got to play it Jordan Mata who's a where the Eagles won Super Bowl couple of years ago. He's the biggest star in Australian sport. everywhere he goes. We're with him in Australia a little while back, signing autographs, people coming to him in the street cuz he's huge as well. You can't miss him. But the effect he's had on fandom in Australia has been phenomenal. So So yes, we we're looking for those international athletes and not just to spike in those interest in those countries because the NFL wants the best athletes in the world to be at the NFL.

50:07 And so whether they come from the African region, the European region, Asia, whatever, we're on the lookout for those top athletes. >> Five years time, what are going to be the top three countries for the NFL outside of US and Canada? >> Germany for sure. Germany is, you know, is on a huge growth spurt. We have incredible partners, media partners. our office there is high performing, but that market is >> quite obsessive about American football. I think the UK will be the other market.

50:37 And I think in in European terms probably France could be France or Spain but I think France will embrace American football a lot more. They love their NBA. They love American sports. I think the rugby will probably on balance help them get into American football to look at it and be interested by it and so on. So I think that'll be the third market. It it tends to help when those markets are on time zones. Asia is more challenging for us because it's it's on on a on a far more challenging time zone to watch American sport from American broadcast. The day will come, I think, when international is significant enough that we can move we can move some of those windows in America to more favorable viewing times for other markets. That'll be the sign that international is really really growing in terms of its its interest in revenues. But as you said, for now, I mean, the power of just having the NFL means people will hopefully turn up >> whether you put it on at 10:30 a.m. or 8:00 p.m.

51:35 >> Certainly in Australia, that's the case. >> Well, to be honest, Australia, you know, lives on such >> strange time zones for most of their sport anyway that they're used to it, aren't they? Brett, I've absolutely loved it. Thank you so much for giving us some of that insight into this world. It is amazing to actually have a proper chat about this rather than just referencing it all the time. So, thank you for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you.