Jordan vs. Barkley in the 1993 Finals | The RewatchaBulls | The Bill Simmons Podcast

0:00 all right last but not least volume three MJ's rewatch a Bulls we've been doing this through the course of the MJ docked with the revived interest in in our guy MJ and we're trying to pick six games this was a controversial pick we fought we had we had like a real legitimate argument about which one to go cuz Barkley you're so sensitive and you love Barkley so much you wanted it you wanted a sons win you want to do

0:25 Game three triple OT ironically that's not a great game it's a dramatic game but it's not very well played it's kind of ugly and it turns into a slap fest as we get in the yo T's and there's just a lot of mistakes this is a really weird series and it doesn't feel like a finals between two really good teams that don't like each other until Game four so the background of this series the Bulls get

0:51 through - through the Knicks we talked about it last last week the Suns have a knock-down drag-out fight with the Sonics they make it in Game seven they shoot a hundred free throws George Karl still pissed about it it's it it is definitely if you're gonna say which ten games of the course NBA history did stern call in with the refs it's definitely a high draft pick gets to the finals MJ vs. Barkley everybody's fired up Jordans still not talking really to

1:20 the press that much he's worn down the whole team's worn down and you have this son's team that's ready to take it and they just the bed in the first two games KJ is terrible we've talked about him before just the stage was kind of too big for him in a lot of ways which is weird because this was a guy who had been in a lot you know I think six all-nba teams second or third team over

1:42 the course of eight years and just he just sucked in the first two Barkley goes toe-to-toe with MJ in Game two they bring out the best in each other Bulls win goes back to Chicago we're thinking sweep the triple OT happens and now we're headed to Game four the Bulls have a lot taken out of them and they have that game six game seven in Phoenix looming and this is a great game why did this game fall through the cracks in NBA

2:08 history Brazil oh because if Chicago got this first two in Phoenix it is a triple overtime and then Paxson shot in Game six I mean it's I still feel like one of the great lessons that going back and watching all these Jordan games is there are so many more clutch shots then have been part of the Jordan propaganda like if you're at Jordan propagandist again you're arguing an argument for the guy that's generally considered the best by almost everybody

2:35 other than a pocket of LeBron people maybe the size of Rhode Island but he has all of these other shots watching his kids you're like well that's a massive shot that's that that was the game ender and I haven't seen it in a commercial like why don't you add that one to all the other ones like I have to watch a Craig Ehlo shot again and as you brought up the 91 game where he has that

2:56 full court runner to get into overtime to win that game that maybe changes the start of the MJ like MJ was gonna get his rings but who knows how that game goes differently if the lakers pulled that one out in LA with with a beat-up squad maybe maybe something happens there you know maybe maybe Jordan it's hard to ever think the guy was ever gonna doubt himself but I mean there's a huge shot against the Knicks and the

3:16 Knicks games that we watch that never get brought up and he has kind of the finisher and this one too that is ridiculous well it's one of his best shots and you're right lost in the cracks the e low shot it won Game five of a round one series and they lost in the next round I'm not saying it wasn't great it was a series ender there hasn't been a lot of those over the years but I

3:37 think it's strange that some parts of his career have lived on in these really vivid ways like the 63 point game you had fought on Twitter last week that they beat the Celtics the Celtics beat them all six times 86 to 87 I look at this game they're they're up to Phoenix has the ball with 40 seconds left and at that point it really looks like Chicago's tired I don't know what happens to Pippen in the second half of

4:03 this game but of Phoenix scores and they blow this game and it's 2-2 in Phoenix has the last two at home I don't know what happens but the real reason I wanted to do this one date you know people keep talking about what would these guys be like now you know if you put Jordan here B do you know Duran and these guys are just as good to see was i watch this game thinking like all right

4:26 here's Phoenix a small ball team for the most part they played marquest at center some they played Miller some but for the most part not a lot of rim protection not a lot of perimeter defense a team that resembles most of the teams that we have now and you watch MJ just carved them up he's not even he didn't really have his jumper in this game he probably made less than six jumpers and he's just over

4:50 and over and slicing through four or five people getting to the rim and either making the shot or getting fouled if you think he wouldn't have been better and the small boy era watched this game because this is what it would have been like that's definitely one way to look at it I'm not one of those guys that ever goes like a look if Jordan played today that he would figure out how to shoot threes and he would be

5:12 really good at it cuz Michael Jordan alright so I don't want to hear I want to hear about his three-point numbers we do that too many times to older players we look at their three-point percentage as you go oh you know bird actually didn't shoot as well from out there look how bad magic numbers are I'm like whatever man like we're talking about some of the best players to ever play like none of the guys who were listening

5:28 or even outside of the top 10 they would figure out a way like bird would take seven threes a game and he would be filthy he just would she would take the route of practiced it right I did a thing when it would have been up did it would have been accepted it was it still wasn't accepted like they would have been like where are you taking rice threes for yeah why are you why aren't you working on your postgame I did a

5:47 thing with McHale on NBA TV last week we watch a game we did commentary for it and we were just talking about bird and some original well three-point lines stuff like that and and about how he was just like bird never practiced threes ever and he would still make it I mean he was like if he played now he would have practiced this three that's the part that I that's why you can't go backwards and be like oh look at the

6:12 3-point stats MJ wasn't a 3-point shooter it's like no of course he wasn't they didn't take him back then you look at Phoenix ancient Marley were the three-point shooters Ainge didn't make a three in this game they made three total nobody took him back then they didn't they didn't make one I think in the second half of the entire game for Game four that were going over right now and you know forget like oh here comes Ainge

6:34 I don't even know if he took one Marley took like a terrible one late he took a couple threes in that second core that kind of kept them in it when it felt yeah we're losing the game the whole time because honestly they were but yeah the accident later on I'll listen to certain things about you know the time machine game and I can argue both sides of it but any of the people that are anti that eras players by

6:58 saying look at their three-point numbers you're making a huge mistake that Michael Jordan would figure out how to make a three-pointer and practice it and it would be a lethal part of it but I don't know that this is anti small ball as much as this is a Phoenix team that still you know 162 games had the best record in the NBA and at their pace and it's not opponents points because they they've got outran they were top seven

7:22 in or I think there were seven that definitely top 10 in defensive efficiency as a team and Jordan abuses them so if this is an argument against small ball it is not an argument for physical dominant 90s playoff defense that everybody sells you on all the time because Jordan dribbled past everyone the entire game and it's actually like embarrassing the little amount of resistance there is because once he got past Dumas they took Dumas and put Marley on him I

7:51 think it ends up being Marley on him more of the rest of the way KJ gets stuck with him but then if it's mark West or Tom Chambers or Oliver Miller in a few minutes it doesn't even matter like he's just going it's a layup line in that second quarter he can do whatever he wants in this game and I don't know that it's anything other than Phoenix just can't can't do anything with the guy they try to send

8:11 these doubles at him how about this they would hard double him with almost no rules other than double him and Ainge would come over to double and help whoever it was and they would leave Pippen wide open wide open on key possessions late and I'm not talking like leave him open after the pass they wouldn't even go back and recover and they didn't even care like this is a bad Pippen game which seems to be a theme to

8:32 you've picked a lot of bad Pippen games for the I didn't mean to there's some some great ones this one I dad the triple OT game and it was a couple days before and I do think it had a dramatic effect on this game you know I even like KJ in Game three the big Phoenix move in Game three was they put KJ and Jordan because they don't have anybody else to guard him they were like well at least

8:53 he's got strong legs he's low to the ground Jordan will try to post him up and and try to shoot up from Jordan and sup taken I think 43 shots in that game and but the Bulls lose so Jordan does takes forty three shots in Game three but it's not it's not great and guys aren't as involved so they know it's like it's the old Jedi mind-trick move when your leg look we're gardening with a point guard shoot keep shooting

9:20 because they know the other guys aren't gonna be as involved this game he doesn't totally have his jump shot but what he has is over and over again and what I mean by the small ball thing is just like it's just different than that nixar is we watch the knick series there's just bodies in the paint every time he's going to paint there's three guys there and they're all hitting him in this game Phoenix just can't stop him

9:45 from going to the rim so what they end up doing it's this weird combination of they're on every Chicago miss they're doing baseball passes to try to they must have saw something in the sky didn't thing or they were just like we can get fast-break layup severy time they miss but if the Bulls make the sun's would slow it down so the pace of this game even though it feels small Bali from the Suns it's it's it's kind

10:07 of it's a little more like what the mid-90s were like with the pace right where they're just trying to slow it down slow it down post up Barclays get Ike KJ on and ISO and it was working and if you look at these if you look at this series they almost win Game two and then Game three they win Game four they almost win this one game five they're they're close but and then they end up winning it by tan I think the suns

10:34 and then Game six came down to that last-second shot so the last five games of this series the sun's could have won and I remember a game one was even close to this game as far as Barclays concerned cuz I'll get to my Barclays part of this hard live long and it's almost right he's got the elbow thing but he's out there and he still put up numbers he only had eight at the half but they were doubling him on every

10:57 catch and as you said once it was a Phoenix possession after a make at Chicago they didn't they didn't trap them as much because I feel like they probably felt like there was always three ball handlers out there as opposed to the Knicks only had two ball handlers at a time out there with Starks and Doc or Starks and Anthony and the way they played that big lineup that maybe they thought they could trap them more this

11:20 is just me you know watching it now kind of guessing right a little bit because they had a couple moments where they were able to trap Phoenix but it wasn't as consistent and that also could have been Game four coming off a triple overtime were Phil's probably thinking you know the rest of the series as well but Berkeley we get a hard double on the catch if he got single nobody could handle him like he beat up Horace Grant

11:38 Pippin has a post possession against it defensively where they keep it one-on-one they don't send a double and Berkeley like brings it back left side of the rim left hand and finishes and like Berkeley just going what are we even doing here but then every time Berkeley got the double he made a great pass and he has this game where any time Phoenix looks like they're doing something right other than that marley stretch of threes in the second quarter

12:00 it's usually Berkeley based and Kevin Johnson doesn't get his fourth point until like deep into the third quarter his and pers and everything but Berkeley is at 25 for the playoffs the next regular is Oliver Miller at 17 Dumas is at 16 Kevin Johnson is just bad I mean I know he had the injury and missed some time against the Lakers in that first round and as I'm watching this whole game play out like I look at it

12:26 differently than I did back then because I wanted Berkeley to win so bad and I think I talked myself into thinking that they should have won the series but the more I'm going back and watching it and I know I've said that before I'm wrong like I can't believe Phoenix is even in this thing and you know they go to five games in the first round of the Lakers which part of it's the injury stuff they

12:46 go six games with or whatever Spurs team they go seven with the Sonics and they had the best record in the NBA and other than Berkeley in Kevin Johnson you mentioned that resume that's really impressive but he was bad in these playoffs he was terrible on a bunch of possessions and in late they ignore Barkley for like a three or four minutes stretch and nothing's happening and then they go to Berkeley and Berkeley gets it in the post scores on Horace Grant

13:09 Berkeley misses a shot gets his offensive rebound puts it back up has another play where he passes out of the double and it's a perfect read and Berkeley just starts going nuts but at that point it was kind of too late because it looked like they just ignored him for a really long stretch and I can't believe that they did it because the only other thing was Kevin Johnson trying to be small going against jordan or pippin in these big

13:28 guards and then another guy coming over because Phoenix didn't have anyone to score I mean marquest is their center and he was like 23rd and PE are of twenty six qualifying centers well what about Matt Magic's doing the announce in the game and he's saying they've got to go to Tom Chambers here I would be running plays for Tom Chambers Tom Chambers this is like the tail end of touch a horse is a great player he

13:52 missed two dunks there's a huge dunk late where he got it wide open and he missed the dunk so I mean Barclays trying to carry this team and watching it now I go it was something I was talking to you about but the drop off from who the second or third player was on the a finals teams back then and I'm not even just talking Bulls Suns here versus who the third player is in the like the last 10 years

14:17 a final seems that we've had let go to your Celtics alright it's it's Ray Allen it's the third best player who's the third best player for the Phoenix Suns Dan Majerle so what happens they expand had four teams heading into the 90s they had the two Florida team Charlotte in Minnesota and it dilutes the league and the stretch from the 91 92 93 playoffs are great but part of the reason they're great is they just lucked out they had

14:47 eight to ten teams that had at least two really good guys in them and I think you feel it in this Finals cuz the Bulls best third best guys Horace Grant who was an excellent defensive player but somebody that you know just came and went offensive lay after that you're looking at the BJ Armstrong types and BJ's a nice player like real nice player but there are worries right played his butt off on defense I think the great

15:11 thing about watching some these BJ Armstrong games it's just that he never really killed you in the bad play but Kevin Johnson being a completely watered down version of himself I mean he had some awful turnovers late too and like big big spots it without it let's talk about him though cuz bring up that stat that you texted me do you want it cuz I have it in front of me right now cuz i theory love his arm be is because i had

15:32 something else after that but go so we were talking about KJ and this is an anti Kate like he was doing well when he and chambers had this thing roll and they were winning games that weren't won in playoff games but you needed him to be that second guy to Berkeley and he just disappears and then you sent me this and from 88 89 to 93 94 he made a second all-nba a second all-nba a second

15:53 all-nba a third all-nba and then he didn't make it a 92 93 because his numbers went down because Berkeley showed up and then was second all-nba in 93 94 that's an insane run over six years I didn't even earn anything I knew that and then in 95 he he scores 46 in Game seven against Houston and the eally kiss game but is you watch that game on hardwood classics he's completely unstoppable he here's the other thing

16:19 with Kevin Johnson and this is why we were belaboring the point of that the fact that if he was better in this series they would have won the series I think so in 89 they they they win two playoff series they make the Western finals in 89 and he's barely there it's like him Tom Chambers and hornacek Eddie Johnson still there they get swept by the Lakers in 90 they go back

16:49 they beat Utah they beat the Lakers they beat the Lakers with it with magic and were they there were five seed right yeah and then they lose to Portland in the Western finals in in six and then in 91 that's Riley's last year by the way Riley's last year 91 they lose in round one and then in 92 they beat the Spurs in round one during when they had like you know Robinson and that was a team that people thought was

17:19 a contender and then lost the Portland in that series so they he kept them relevant it wasn't like when Berkeley got traded to them he got traded to the schmuck team like that was a pretty relevant Phoenix team and KJ was the best guy in the team so for him to just kind of no-show this finals he was good in Game three point six two minutes and he got better as it went along but it they

17:41 really never recovered from it no did not have a third scorer that could supplant him there was there was like the stretch to where you know there's there's this whole thing you just see everything's like falling falling apart around all of them you know I mentioned like Kevin Johnson gets his 14th point on a layup where it's like a really nice play and I don't know if that was kind of one of those Walter McCarty threes in

18:06 the corner where it's like alright I just made one I'm gonna take six more of these and like I don't know if that's a great idea and then Johnson has this like really bad stretch where I don't know what the hell he's doing out there there's there's a point where Dumas has I think BJ Armstrong in him in some sort of switch and then Barclays going over to the left block and so this would be right to left Phoenix ball if you're

18:31 watching it and he waves Barkley out of the post so josh is just dribbling against Jordan dribbling dribbling dribbling and he's like now get out of here because we want to go to Dumas in the post and then Dumas gets doubled has no plan throws the ball up in the air and it's it's a disaster and then they called the timeout cuz right after that there's a pip and dunk and I think a lot of it was was West Falls like hey

18:54 Charles Barkley is on our team let's not forget because even though Barkley had struggled from outside he'd made everything at the rim when he was single cover it was over and when he got doubled he's just this great passer and he'd figured things out put there just moments long stretches where they couldn't get it to him and then 30 seconds 36 seconds left they go to inbound it to Kevin John see just loses the ball he just loses the ball

19:15 it's terrible it's like you know it's one of those moments that gets lost because it's game for but if that were a game six moment it'd be right up there with Karl Malone getting the ball stripped from behind in the Utah series and it was early sports radio its pre-internet me and all my friends who love the ambient we're like what the is wrong with Kevin Johnson the series like if you go from eighty nine to ninety five eighty three playoff

19:38 games and that includes this 93 where in 93 he was 18 a game eight assists his freitas field goes down all that stuff but you go 89 295 he's 22 and 10 for 83 playoff games this was a guy who statistically was as good as Chris Paul offensively if you're just comparing like stats so for him to know show in the finals like he gets bent for Frankie Johnson and what in one of the games I've take him out that was tough

20:07 the dumas thing I want to talk about quick there's really never been anything like this in the history of the league you have this guy who gets drafted who's had a ton of issues he's a second-round pick immediately fails a drug thing goes to rehab for his attire rookie or doesn't play a game comes in in this second season take cedric's of biases job Subala says doesn't even play in the finals Dumas takes all his minutes 48 games

20:36 during the regular season 16 points a game 27 1/2 minutes per game then in the playoffs he's 11 a game and has some big moments a game for game 5 he's kind of unstoppable in little stretches only plays 42 more games and three more playoff games in his career he next year drug drug rehab is out year after that comes back a little bit he's out he was one of the most troubled guys we had like if you were making a troubled

21:03 all-star team I don't know if he's a starter like you're looking at Roy Tarpley and Michael ray Richardson guys like that but he's definitely in the nine man rotation cuz he was really good it's just ceballos had played 16 playoff games he's on this team and he gets he's nowhere near any of this stuff and I know magic had talked about Westfall not trusting him that I imagine defensively yeah I mean the defensive stuff is so

21:30 bad they go hey look you know put Dan Majerle on him and then there's the Ainge moments that we have to get to because I know you want to stay on dumas here but you're right I just wanted to mention like that just a really strange career had this really it for good months and crested with him on the final stage scoring buckets he's the biggest reason they win Game five on the road in Chicago everyone thinks Chicago's can

21:56 win another title and then it's basically done it's I don't think he's at 30 for 30 but he's like a 30 for 30 short like a like a what that happened to this guy yeah he went from ma by the way he like 30 games his first year at Oklahoma State 1816 well yeah seventeen and six a game and his field goal percentage numbers were always pretty good and then it's like oh wait you know this guy's going in the wrong direction

22:21 here scoring and games played yeah he had a license I mean he was out of the league it's entire second year and as you mentioned I mean doesn't even get to like 50 games magic who is better I thought as a he's the third man in the with Marvin Lazar and was really banging home the whole team theme about how he thought these teams were too friendly and he didn't like that barkley and MJ were hanging out he tells this whole

22:45 story and as this game is getting chippy earned more fiscal and Ainge Jordan almost kicks angels ass like twice BJ Armstrong and KJ get into it Pippen and Barkley have a whole bunch of things that's why I want to do this game cuz it feels like a real Finals game and magics just get more and more excited the board chippy it gets and then finally he starts talking about how between one of these games in Chicago I

23:08 guess I was between Game three in Game four Michael Jordan had just opened his steakhouse and both teams went to have dinner there and he's like I can't believe that when I was in the finals I never wanted to see anybody like you're trying to beat these guys these guys are in your way you gotta hate these guys you can't be friends with them I think it's a huge mistake and was real and the chippy or God he was like finally this

23:29 feels like the finals I felt watching it like it was maybe maybe the moment when things started to change in the league the buddy-buddy thing where magic who just retired is just viscerally responding to these guys hanging out and having dinner together I don't know I I think that leads to where we are now or everybody's you know hugs and tweeting at each other and being out each other's

23:59 podcasts and stuff but I don't know if I don't know if it started in 93 but it's a good test case so this is a really interesting thing because we had a few things going on here where you know some people get really bad mad at Van Gundy and Mark Jackson they'll make jokes about like hey the broadcast turns into a podcast and I would rather have the moments where I don't always love the discussion but like that they're talking

24:23 about sort of newsy items in the course of a broadcast like what what bad color commentators don't realize is that I don't need your breakdown of every single possession you know first you can let it breathe and I like when it's a three-man guy and the other two analysts are kind of having a bigger picture discussion about something that's going on and honestly nobody's better than when Van Gundy is doing it I know they're gonna be yeah it's like hey

24:45 there's a game going on here guy but I'd rather have him take those chances and maybe miss some stuff instead of just going straight the whole time this was like an early version of it because magic kept having like his own little podcast about all of these dynamics it's a line that's so great about the not that it matters as he's not playing but he goes you know these guys are all out to dinner at MJ

25:04 steakhouse MJ Steakhouse must have been mentioned a thousand times during the playoffs in 93 by the way yes and he goes and me and Quinn Buckner we couldn't believe it when we were there all the guys were there he's not playing but it was like I was like how like why does magic know like everything that's going on it's like because clearly he was hanging out with MJ and Charles the whole time oh yeah there are be

25:29 playing cards yeah so the second part of this and I can speak to this because of my football partner Chris long as a newer athlete right a guy who just retired how frustrated he gets when he hears that all it is it's like all these guys are boys all the time and they work out together and nobody's mad about anything and then when he saw in the first part of the Jordan dock that Ainge played golf with MJ and 86 it was like

25:58 oh hey so we you know the Millennial athlete gets dumped on all the time but yet here we go in the rough-and-tumble 80s and then again yeah 90s with Charles and MJ I think age probably played golf with Jordan cuz they were a 30 and 52 team anything fresh it so maybe that's overstated I also think the Barclays Jordan stuff Barclays shot down that one story where they played a million holes and MJ bottom earrings and

26:23 it ended up on the news and Barkley was watching the news broadcast of it and he's like I didn't even golf with him like I don't even know what's going on so I don't know who to believe in all this stuff I think you can still be menacing and take out your opponent and be friendly but there are times where I think it's too much an example I always think of do you remember the Yankees Sox

26:39 playoff game where Ortiz was looking at a rod in the game and was like telling him to take a deep breath and relax that was one for me or I was like actually no I'd rather have it have him be full of anxiety right yeah I'd rather be hyper right right like Ortiz are you kidding like you you're that friendly with everybody that in the game you're actually telling a rod to relax loosen up like no like you don't need

27:02 that he's 80 years of torture by this franchise did I ever tell you the 93 Finals golf story about MJ then I think Ahmad Rashad told me somebody told it to me who was who was there who pointed it out I think it was dude so Jordan in the first two games or maybe between the games or before Game one or something he was playing like 36 holes a day in Phoenix and apparently he got sunburned and if you look at him I

27:29 think it's game 2 but it might be game 6 but I think it's game to see the game want her game to if you look at him he's actually darker because he hit he had played so much golf he got like sunburned and I think it was a mod telling me this is like that dude was playing so much golf he got sunburned but it was just how he was treating the whole finals he was so good that he's

27:54 every night he's gambling he's playing 36 holes of golf he scores 55 points in this game look I talked to somebody who played against him in one of these I'm not gonna say the year but he goes you drank all night with him the night before like all night like the place is stayed open for us and you know when you're younger you can recover and when you're six a million and you're these these guys like these

28:21 guys recover better than the average guy but that was kind of their thing I guess and I think this version of the story has been told before but like they stayed out all night and then they pull in a facility and I think Scottie and Michael were outside smoking cigars being like welcome to you're beating he's right we stayed out we stayed out with you all night and we know you feel we don't cuz we're mutants and

28:43 we're gonna have a stogie before we even play this playoff game and then when the game tips we're gonna kick your ass too so I don't even know like MJ may have been doing this stuff where he's like what do I care if I go golf or these guys I'm better than all of you and I'm gonna beat you all I mean and that's kind of this yeah we're I I think that's what it was I think I

29:01 think he wanted to get the point across like I'm gonna play 36 holes and then I'm gonna score 50 I didn't drink all night too apparently and and I'd go why would you like I just I remember the night I saw Gary Payton drink when I travel with the cell it was the only time I'd ever ever been on the road with the team because I was filling in for play-by-play radio see it's the only time I filled in for a road game

29:26 and I didn't get paid and that's probably why fill it in and Payton it was a day it was a weird Saturday day game it's that weird net Celtics game that I did and Payton was was fine but he was he was throwing him back and I just kept thinking to myself like the minute if I were ever hung over and got smoked in a game I'd never ever want to do that again like I just wouldn't you

29:46 know hangover suck I wouldn't want to be like hungover and go out there but I part of it is the life and guys just adapt but the thing that you can't at first like these guys are just different than the rest of us and some of them can stay out all night long and it doesn't matter can you imagine him as a championship on the line and staying out till 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning then

30:05 playing golf and then going out there and dropping like 40 on somebody and apparently like I'm not saying it happen every night but these guys are just built different man it's it's incredibly him pride think I think MJ specifically there's that story about wait William Macker at that awesome Sports Illustrated piece after Secretariat died when they had the autopsy after Secretariat died and his heart was twice the size of a normal horse heart and they were like oh that explains a lot I

30:36 wonder like somebody like Jordan like when he dies someday and they study his body I wonder like if it's different than other bodies like the Royals you can just play and score 55 and not sleep that's not normal I don't I don't think there are other people who could do that I think he's a rarefied athlete I I think there's got to be something special physically about him it can't just be a mental thing yeah if MJ had a whoop it would be like

31:03 hey dude relax like we need your recovery numbers are all over the place well Iverson was like that too right remember they said I ever some was a vampire like he just didn't sleep ever yeah but then people would tell you that we're close like tours Deanna was catching up to him oh yeah that's the thing like you have apparently with Gary Payton he just never caught up it like it just he was just that dude who was gonna be wired

31:25 and you know he's out of Lee cuz he was older not for any other reason but and when I say it that way I mean like look guys decline they have their sort of decline but normally you know start turning like 27 28 that hangover lasts a little bit longer and you're gonna you know this is some of these guys it didn't really happen to it but the other thing that can't be and I don't care if

31:44 like if it any points like man you guys really love Jordan yeah that's the point you know that's kind of the point it's almost like he is so cool every second he is on the court there is not a second where anything is uncool I know it sounds stupid but it's true like it every time somebody tries to go at him to like look he elbows Ange Ange gets pissed rips a ball out of his hands

32:03 respect to Ange for kind of going like look I know you're mg I'm not gonna back down to you but even when MJ was in the middle of one of those things he'd point his finger at you and his eyes and his face and he never looked he never got so heated that he looked uncool and not in control of his emotions it's fresh freaky man it's freaky cuz every single time it's like the celebrations perfect

32:25 the drive is perfect the finishing at the rim he changes it on you and I'm not just talking that one play where he changed his hands to a less hand like every moment that dude is on the court he is in complete control and he's cooler and more dominant and even to talk to him you have to be like I know I got to stick up for myself and not look like a pushover but I'm talking

32:45 to Michael Jordan right now and I'm just gonna lose it's it's weird well he gets into it with Ange twice the first time and it starts a little earlier and the announcers missed that when they showed the replay Ainge comes behind sets a really hard back screen on him and then kind of follows through on it and the plays going and MJ he's so mad at ain't she like swings and elbow and he's like but he has to go chase his guy

33:10 so it's you could see him followed away like I'm gonna get him later and Ainge ends up with the ball like eight seconds later MJ like basically makes him throw it out of bounds and then then just gets right in his face and Ainge who just over and over again was OH on the defense he was the Daniel Larusso of the NBA for a long time it was like everybody just wanted man I don't know if it was his eyes or what it cuz like

33:37 you know it's Danny h8 he's a really good player and you know it remembers a dance at out three cold-cocked him they could find it he opened they get into it he opened hand slaps him and Ange like staggers like he's Trevor Berbick against Tyson but he he got punched a few times okay sedale three I used to have from the newspaper that punch where it's in angels like mouth it's this is a let me know if I can open hands old school slap

34:08 and age just like a Tommy the Hitman Hearns just cracked by Hagler like stutter step on the court I cut that out and put it in my Trapper Keeper when I was in grade school Wow well you know you don't have to remind me this Dale three punch because I had it for a year in my Trapper Keeper so he had that he had the famous tree Rollins fight where he's running by Rollins Rollins throws an elbow died man Ange

34:34 who's a foot smaller than him he turns around he charges them and tackles him which was good he had a couple with Detroit did a couple the Lakers and then over and over again in these Portland Phoenix third man playoff runs that he had third guard off the bench it was always somebody getting mad at him he really was Davey larissa but he wouldn't just back down though I definitely don't size him up and you go

34:57 you know like Ainge is this amazingly accomplished athlete and whatever you're gonna say to him I'm sure bird gave him way more like bird McHale always kind of joked about like Danny being the younger guy that he gave a hard time the younger brother yeah yeah I I think it's I don't look at any of these encounters and go like Oh Ainge was this dirty guy that was doing all this that guys I just think he was look I'm not gonna back

35:17 down to you even if I'm at this for like my my peak career tier wasn't it yours but I'm not just gonna submit which I actually respect as I go back and watch some of this Ainge stuff but I don't know why people hated him you know I mean you know it was the other guy you know at the end of the heat one of the Houston Phoenix series that I think in 94 he didn't let him marry Ellie

35:39 celebrating and it's you've seen that clip right where Ange is throwing the ball inbounds at the tail end but just whips it gets it as hard as he can it's it's crazy I actually think if he did that now he'd get suspended for like 10 games but they cut and Houston gets mad at him and he's doing the one what what I didn't I didn't realize I did that it was like one of those but he clearly did it

36:02 intentionally we should talk quickly about MJ 55 points in this game he's 21 for 37 he misses five free throws first quarter 11 points 5 for 9 second quarter 22 points 9 for 11 so he's got 33 at halftime cools down a little as 10 and we're like four minutes into the fourth quarter he scores to have get 47 he's got four in the fourth quarter Marvin goes Michael Jordan 47 points only four in the fourth quarter hey you and I have

36:33 noticed this over there again no got it now no lesser fan of Michael Jordan than Marv Albert just unimpressed constantly the guy like I can do no right it's on you know he's sitting there oh em gee a hundred points but field goal percentage not what you'd want you know he's always throughout what do we've watched five or six of these now we've done three for it so I've I've cheated and gone and watched him otherwise just so much fun

37:01 but there always seems to be this lingering thing with Marv were even if Jordans lighting it up in response to a bad game to Jordan feeling it like Jordan has he's got like at least 40 points and he misses a jumper and curves like Michael searching for the jump shot today or simply that is like he's about half of the points on his team he's about to break the finals record for points in a half yeah I mean it's 33 cuz

37:31 it's so bad it's so easy how easy that 33 is in the first half because of Jim just going through everyone it actually didn't you feel like he could add 70 in this game if the pace was a little faster he misses III honestly enjoyed every shot he took except for two I thought he took 37 shots at that 35 were great shots he made all right passes to once I started TT Miam it is a flow in the game 55 I never felt

37:58 like he was ball hogging it same thing for Berkeley Berkeley was just doing whatever the defense took it was never at any point like oh my god I have a chance to get 60 meanwhile as they point out near the end of the telecast like only one guy had ever had 60 Plus and the finals was Elgin Baylor and I think that was an overtime game so the stuff he was doing was that and it's just bouncing off Marv he's just hey MJ

38:22 would had to score 70 to really get a rise out of Marv I think yeah Barclay has 32 12 and 10 and he's 10 and 19 and it's almost this like perfect game yeah and you know if you go back and watch this after you listen to us do the pod you're gonna have moments of feeling like it's underwhelming and you're gonna go no it's it's like this incredibly efficient 32 he only has one turnover he could add a second one where

38:48 he got kind of caught bringing the ball of the court but you could just see there's these moments our Park is like is anybody else gonna do anything here and Marley's got right team Kevin Johnson ends up with 19 but it was really kind of empty most the game Dumas has a good early start of it anymore we talked about Marley quick yes this guy was considered to be one of the best three Indy guys or the early version of

39:08 it and you know made an all-star team had a good career had a nice little comeback run with the Miami teams Jordan destroys him and they go into it a little you know and playing for keeps by howevers to him where it's all because Jerry Krause loved Marley in the draft and Jordan and Pippen found out for some reason Jordan some lunatic he took it personally and he's just every time I played a and Marley I'm gonna destroy

39:35 him he kills him in this game to the point that it's honestly like if I was guarding Michael Jordan it's like the way he's just going by Marley and they even say that I think fratello talks about well Marley told us he can't stop that crossover and he's just gonna try to stay in front of him but if he's gonna do the crossover he can't stay in front of him and it's like this guy was a borderline all

39:59 defense guard he literally couldn't guard Michael Jordan at all in any way screaming for help and he stopped because actually yeah I mean the thing about Marley that you liked is a three India's that he had this kind of size but they were better off with kj8 but then KJ you know if we're telling the full story this whole thing I don't love doing the oh this guy was heard this guy was heard all this stuff constantly the whole time because

40:20 a lot of the guys are hurt but he had missed some time in the playoffs they're working on his hamstring at one point Hannah Storm has that that cut and they even say that Barkley if it were a regular season game he wouldn't have played cuz the elbow but look if you can get thirty to twelve and ten you're good enough to go ahead and play and and KJ actually starts being really aggressive they're late and when Marly said that

40:42 and foretell appoints it out I'm going like well that's that's the most common thing ever you know how when the draft will happen and then somebody will talk about a guard defensively and he comes in to be like well he's gonna have to figure out a way to stay in front of Russell Westbrook like actually he's not going to have to because no one can stay in front of Russell Westbrook so I used to make them shake when I would do my

40:59 own little scouting reports but like always gonna have it tough to you know no one can stay in front of Chris Paul prime Chris Paul one on one okay like that's why you have better more advanced defensive team concepts now than you do back then and so when Marlee gets caught on that switch going right to left and MJ's free at the free-throw line everybody would have gotten caught on that cuz there's not even a help like

41:20 the doubles were telegraph doubles they try to do a double late where MJ gets that and one that basically seals the game where Kevin Johnson runs like full speed at MJ on the catch on the inbound at half court and MJ's already behind me Kevin Johnson isn't paying any attention and then he gets past the second guy because Kevin Johnson didn't really have a plan at the point of attack and then Barkley comes over and fouls

41:43 him and makes the bucket and that's again one of those lost like okay nail in the coffin bucket there because Phoenix was making this late charge as I'm constantly going how is it six points how is it five points so you know it got to eight it got ten like anyone was playing well you want to know why because at one point Chicago was 14 to 27 from the free-throw line that's the only reason this game was closed they

42:07 kept missing all rows and had they had they made their free throws this could have been a 20-point game and then the effort is down at the end and that's why the game is like oddly close when it shouldn't be can I tell you something yeah Dan Majerle that year made the all-star team second team all-defense second team all-defense of 91 to jordan is destroying him but not as bad as Dumas honestly he was better he well but

42:37 I mean Dumas was a guy who was in a valley in a year this was a guy like we didn't really have a lot of better options to guard Michael drewer we had like Dumars you talked about I'm talking to early nineties guys it's like Dumars ironically that the best guy was the guy and his team Pippen that was that would probably if you're just doing a draft of like who could guard Michael Jordan the early nineties you probably would have

42:59 picked Pippen we saw in the Lakers series too he's he's just destroying Byron Scott going by him whenever we want Byron Scott is a good defensive player it didn't matter yeah that's the moral of the story though is that it's not Dan Majerle I mean the do ma attention to detail I mean Dumas is flat-footed there's no effort I mean he's he's just lost and then he when he gets caught in a switch he doesn't even know what the hell he's

43:20 doing you know what else was crazy too is like four minutes left in the game Kevin Johnson's trying to run a high screen against Cartwright to get caught in a high switch you know like a ban five switch and they don't even do it right and then Cartwright ends up getting called for a foul and I remember being like oh that's right you were allowed to do screens with centers to try to get a small against they're big

43:42 and they never do it I think it jumps out there we go oh wait yeah that's right that was allowed in the 90s and you would think at some point somebody to go hey could we try to get Kevin Johnson into a switch against Bill Cartwright because let's just do that instead of him trying to finish against Pippen and Jordan the whole time and the one time they do do it they get a foul but I'm like oh that's right why

44:04 wouldn't there's a lot of stuff that you can't help but watch like with today's idea of what basketball looks like going well that's kind of dumb there's just a lot of Phoenix offensive stuff in here where you go I I was shocked by how much I didn't like Phoenix's offense considering how fun I thought they were in the moment in the 90s watching them but I was like it's under one it's a war zone I was getting frustrated I was like

44:27 why don't they just run pick andros with AJ and Barkley what are they doing a pick-and-roll KJ and Barkley is unstoppable well how are you how are you stopping it Barkley can roll the basket and do the run get to the basket it's not like not all I would run it's like zero it's when they fly the wrong one when they do that one with chambers at the end cuz it was gonna be chambers like on

44:48 to a switch or whoever I think it might have been BJ had Johnson on that one I'm not sure but it I mean honestly didn't you whoa wouldn't you just put all right you put Marley Ange and Frank Johnson out there just spread the floor with them and he's like we're just running Barkley cage a high screen every single time and we're gonna we're gonna score it we're gonna average 1.5 points of possession we don't care if we get killed on defense

45:11 you're killing us anyway that's what I would have done a couple more quick things about this this this game I just wanted to say I loved we mention it last week I love doing the Bulls trapped and I found this quote from Jackson that there's a little oral history about this finals that Jack McCallum did Randy Johnson Phil Jackson no he said the first unit pressed with BJ and the ball and Cartwright as a defensive banker the second unit used a

45:38 full court trap defense with a mobile center and Stacey King or Scott Williams they're so much more active with that full court stuff than I expected it was really effective and I know I I'm gonna say I don't understand why a modern NBA team wouldn't look at this and just be like let's do that full-court trap thing that the early 90s Bulls team did I think it would really cause problems I wish somebody would try it and then

46:03 either because the only reason but if the only reason is all players don't want to do that today that's a horrible horrible reason because the players today the five-man units you have out there are much more far more designed to handle it and you know trap and recover would tell ya guys than they were back then and your writings are deep to like a 10 man team like you look at the Celtics they're pretty deep right that

46:28 it's couldn't they bring in a bench and just have a full court trap with the bench we or Brown is anchor the anti you know we could do all this stuff with anybody hey what's your anti Phil Jackson argument okay well the only way these guys play their asses off for him and I know he's really war yeah they play so hard it's a maybe that's just MJ and Pippin maybe it's those two guys it's like look this

46:52 is how serious we're taking it everybody has to get in line I mean Horace grants all over he has a 10/10 in the first half to and I you know Phil deserves it's something it's just nice to bring up and remember like a Phil got the best players in the world to play like they were walk-ons at a d1 school right two other quick things KJ said in that oral history the ninety three final still keeps him up at night the history of the

47:15 NBA as these teams that come up short learn their lessons to win it that was supposed to be us we didn't being one of the best teams never to win a championship that's a star state to be in it's funny because in 94 do must get suspended Barclays knees are pretty banged up and then they end up losing to Houston 95 they had Danny Manning that year in that team the 95 title is wide open Houston ends up kind of stealing it

47:40 there were succeed they just kind of caught fire at the right time orlando wasn't really ready yet to actually win the title that Phoenix team if Danny Manny doesn't get hurt I think that that ironically could have been Barclays best chance other than this year and then the other thing I noticed you know magics doing the announcing in 92 and 93 for these finals in a weird way that was the most fortuitous thing that happened for

48:05 MJ with these first three titles was just magic having a retire because that Lakers team they would have been able to add to that nucleus ad they still had worthy they had Scott they Perkins a debauch you know they would assign somebody else I actually think that would have been a harder team to get past then this 93 Suns team because as you pointed out it was really two scores and that's it and they were not they did

48:29 not have a rim protection team it was a super fun team to watch I loved watching them I thought Berkeley was extraordinary this season but when Jordan wanted to score anytime he could and that was the legacy of the series he could get any basket he wanted whenever he wanted that 85 or assuming 95 second-round seven-game series - Houston is one of my worst basketball memories because I wanted Barkley you get it so bad I thought okay you're right like here we

48:54 go it's wide open Houston isn't as good the six seed thing oh they're still high off of last year but they had added Clyde and Phoenix wins 131 away game 1-1 1894 in Game two they get blasted going to Houston and then they they win Game four they're up 3-1 in this series they lose a six-point game I mean I have this fat hunger yeah no you have a 3-1 series lead that's right in Houston wins

49:23 that's right Houston wins games five six and seven Game seven stats Hakeem twenty nine and 11 Clyde shoots the hell out of the ball himself he has 29 7 and then case yes that's just because KJ deserves this cuz it's very the KJ's just bad in this game there's nothing really to say it's a tough playoffs for him entirely in 1993 and not what you'd expect he had 46 points in a one-point game seven game Barkley had 18 23 boards and

49:53 this is this is one of my least favorite I remember exactly where I was I was still sticking around college I didn't want to go home yet and classes were out and I was just out with a couple buddies and watching this we were we were so we were so bummed out cuz you know guys at that point like I think people were sort of rooting for Berkeley especially with Jordan not being around and it felt like Houston was they'd had

50:18 a spirited title defense but people weren't talking about them as a title team and the end the last minute of this game is just brutal like it's coming out of a timeout they trap because they assume I think they were they were assuming it was gonna go to it came so they trapped try to force the issue they leave Ellie wide open in the corner and that's he does the famous kiss but KJ I would urge people to go watch this game

50:43 if you're super bored because KJ is just on skates in this game he that's key layout layup layup layup lamb he's going by everybody people are backing five feet off him he's still getting in the rim so anyway alright so rewatch a Bulls volume three we love this game because love this sons team it's a tragic team ironically next decade they would have another tragic team with the with the Nash's sons sons have had a couple critically-acclaimed

51:12 almost champs and this is definitely one and then the MJ you know the average 41 in the finals I'm reasonably sure we won't see that again who knows maybe there would be some 3-point shooter that just makes fifty threes in the seven-game series or single elimination Rockets that's the entire finals just one game what if the Rockets won a single elimination championship how would you how would you process that probably wouldn't acknowledge it I barely acknowledged the 99 Spurs that

51:40 one still bothers me and that was like fifty game season but we had a full one that wouldn't bother you that was a stupid season said knit the next get in as an eight see - chastened mmm season everyone's out of shape we're sill oh you have two podcasts coming this week one what are you doing I think - and we're starting part one of the recruiting stories where I interview a bunch of dudes and get their best

52:06 single recruiting story going to college all pro athletes except for one in you and I will go do TV concierge will do Ozarks season three this week but later they will just throw that one up there check out TV concierge on Spotify it launches on Monday it's exclusive check out rasilla Podcast the Ryan rasilla podcast which you can find wherever you get your podcast thanks to State Farm thanks to world central kitchen thanks to her Silla thanks to nephew Kyle nephew Kyle

52:33 I missed you during the draft that was sad it's emotional I'm sorry it was a first draft we haven't watched in a while stay safe out there we'll see you later Lee