We Got Scanned By Midjourney's New Body Machine

0:00 All right, Kylie, here we go. What did we do last night? >> Last night, we uploaded our arms into the Matrix in downtown San Francisco. >> We're going to tell you all about it on this episode of Core Memory. This is Ashley Vance. >> And I'm Kylie Robinson. And >> this is Core Memory. And here we go. [music] >> [music] >> Kylie, here we are. We just saw each other hours ago.

0:38 >> Does feel like hours ago. Yes, >> we were at a suare in downtown San Francisco in the uh the dodgy dodgy part of San Francisco. Very dodgy. Yes. Um things were hurdled and avoided. Yes. On our way into the door, but David Holtz, the founder and CEO of Midjourney, was holding an event. We got a semi-exclusive invite. How many people were there? 2 >> 250. >> 250. >> I think we were not the only but we were there. Very few. Very very few.

1:11 >> And well, okay. I mean, most people listening this probably know what Midjourney is, but if you don't, I mean, it's the it was the place that kind of kicked off all the image generation stuff when AI started getting extra weird and >> you could just tell your computer to manufacture whatever you >> wanted. And I mean, credit to them. They were ahead of the game really on a lot of this stuff. And David >> self-funded this company and took no venture capital and has been printing money ever since. And last night at this event, we got a a strange quite like, you know, unexpected glimpse of what he plans to do with his money.

1:52 >> Yeah. An MRI machine, which is nuts for an AI startup. And you just wrote about, you know, a rich guy doing fancy things with his money. >> Yeah. He's kind of created what? Well, okay. So, we we're at this event. It's there's orurves. It's in some some new club. They told me the person at the front desk told me it opened in February. It's like a members only kind of thing. We weren't supposed to take any pictures or photos. I of course had my meta glasses on even though they made us >> turn our phone off. So we're for a while we're we're smoozing. We're having cocktails. Then David sits down to yes unveil this thing. And so it's this >> full body scan um to check on your health. It does crazy 3D scan of your your body. And then he said this is one of eight products that MidJourney is going to do that all seem at least a little a field of what the company has been doing. He said there would be four hardware products, four software. The first two were unveiled which was the scanner plus a spa which we're going to tell you all about. So these were the first two and then he said the others are coming it sounded like over the course of this year.

3:00 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And he didn't give too many hints although we'll scoop it early. We heard from the chatter at the party that one of them is probably some kind of brain computer interface thing. >> Yeah. >> Which I can't imagine midjourney making a BCI. It requires so much attention and like really amazing scientists and engineers to pull off. >> And we have a lot quite a lot of BCIs now. So I I was trying to I just don't know where you take this because we have we've got Neuralink doing the most extreme end of full-on surgery putting electrodes right against your neurons.

3:32 We've got other people sitting right on top of the brain. We have other people doing ultrasound already. So there's quite a variety of BCIs. Then Merge Labs we wrote about they're trying. I just don't know how many takes there's there's only so much you can do. >> One of the founders of Merge was there >> was there Sumner Core Memory subscriber. [laughter] Yeah. So I just don't know how many takes there are. So anyway, we I don't think we we didn't learn much beyond we just heard they're working on a DCI.

3:59 >> Yeah. I was not familiar with what is it with it butterfly. >> Yes. >> So it has a lot of those and >> Oh, for this for the full body scan. >> Yeah. For the full body scan. >> Yeah. So there's Butterfly Networks, I think it's called. It's Jonathan Rothberg, who I run across a little bit. Yeah. So they make a portable ultrasound machine. You people might have seen it. Um just like a handheld ultrasound. And so it has this chip and midjourney, well quite clearly the CEO of Butterfly was there. They they've taken these just a ton of these chips and and arranged them to create the scanner.

4:35 >> Yeah. And it was in the pit, this device. >> Yes. I was watching the pit. It was so strange. There was a whole episode. If anyone watches that show, I I binged the whole thing. Yeah. There there was this hilarious episode where they're like uh they're like, "We got to scan this person. How are we going to do it?" and he's like, "I've got a butterfly handheld scanner." It felt so much like an ad. And then throughout the whole episode, they would just call it out again and again. He'd be like, "Hey, Bill, do you have the butterfly handheld ultrasound with you?" And so I assume this was an ad. I We ran into the CEO. I asked him. He said this was not it was not like a product placement. I'm kind of shocked. They were just very generous. But yeah, so they the that that company makes these chips that that do the ultrasound scanning and then we could see in these images that David Holtz put up, they must have dozens or a hundred or so of those.

5:29 >> I think there was 40 and then there like in one segment and then there's just like I don't know 12 segments or something. There's tons of them >> cuz it goes 360 around the body and so people will be familiar with an MRI. You got to lay down in a big tube. You get sucked in. It's clanking and you're in there. You can't move. What David showed in this video, I mean, it was like a two-minute long video. You could kind of see what was going on. I mean, so he has a person stand on a platform. I mean, it was very matrix matrixy. You get lowered down >> into a pool of water and and then this imaging is supposed to take place. He said, I don't know if they're doing this right now, but in a minute is what he was sort of claiming would be on the horizon quickly. And so that's obviously way quicker than an MRI. You're not in a hospital. He wants to put you in a >> spa.

6:17 >> Spa. So you go >> sauna and cold plunge and then you go get scanned in a minute. And then the amount of data it was throwing off was insane. I mean, I people can go find the numbers, but it was it was terabytes per scan. And so they've clearly done I take it face value that this works what he showed us because it seemed to on some level and and so they are they've they've clearly taken like a bunch of available technology and really done a cool job of stitching this all together. And so people had thought of doing a full body ultrasound before.

6:56 It's just nobody had really assembled all the tech you would need to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And we got to demo it where it was just our hand and you could see sort of your inards. You could see where the bone is and your veins and that was neat. It looked really cool. I mean, uh, the the sections it takes of your body was really interesting. I've never had an MRI actually. I'm not rich enough.

7:18 >> Well, yeah. So, I mean, you can get eyes when you're in need, but then yeah, the wealthy people like do these these regular things. I mean, I guess that was the pitch. is saying there's debate on all this stuff cuz some people think, oh, you shouldn't do these scans all the time cuz you like flag things that aren't really a problem and now you're getting like unneeded treatments or you're you're freaking out. But, you know, there's obviously a case to be made that >> you want to check on on what's going on inside you more often. So, he was I mean he's talking about >> he wants to go in there every day and >> Yeah. And so, at that point, it's like a Apple Watch or a Fitbit. You're just scanning your whole body every >> every day. We were sitting next to Brian Johnson and Kate Tollo and and >> Brian's been doing the less slightly less frequent version of this for years.

8:06 I mean, this would be sort of heavenly, I guess, if you're on the the Brian program. >> Totally. I can imagine it being in like a fancy upscale gym, you know, and just being able to take a dip whenever you want. >> Yeah. Uh, I think he said $40 billion to like really make this dream come true and and scale it, which is a lot of money to do. >> Yeah. What did he say? He wants 50,000 machines so that everybody on Earth can get one conveniently. And so that would require what he he said there were like 50 per spa or something. These numbers are close. And so yeah, you would just have to build thousands of spas >> and that's real estate and it's all very expensive. in his one downtown. The midjourney spa is going to be open by the end of next year, which is insane to me on a hardware timeline.

8:52 >> I'm skeptical on this. I I don't know. I haven't been to their l I'm, you know, maybe, maybe not. The the video he showed, it seemed quite big. >> Mhm. >> And then you'd have to The video of the device seemed big and then the video he showed of the spa, they were very floors. Yeah. So, they were very elegant and small and and fitting in a little room. And so I felt like there was quite some distance to go between between the two renderings. But you know, maybe he knows things we don't know.

9:20 >> I think, you know, on these sort of timelines, I'm also skeptical. I think that he has a lot of side quests. I think he's known for, you know, getting really deep on what he wants to build. So by the end of next year, that's something you have to be singularly focused on. And he has eight things that they're launching. And they also need to hire. That was like a big part of their pitch is that we need to hire good engineers for this. So, I mean, I want to do it. I'm down. Someone asked in the audience if we're going to get uploaded to the Matrix through this, which was pretty hilarious.

9:51 >> That was Dylan Field from Figma. Yeah. Um, so, and then right after, well, we had science friends there that I've been getting texts all morning. So there was this guy named David Garrett who's a scientist I think who went to Caltech and he clearly well so he's published he's published papers on full body ultrasound and if you go to his LinkedIn page he worked at Midjourney for a few months on this >> and so I'm being told was one of the key people responsible for developing this technology he as of either this morning or very recently has started his own research organization that I think is being backed maybe by convergent research. Um, >> so he seems to be probably going off to go pursue this same thing. I have no idea what that means that like >> I don't know how essential this guy was, but that he's already off doing something else. So >> yeah, I think you know when you have a founder like David who, you know, it's he's self-funded this. He's very singularly focused on the success of his company and what he wants to do for this world and what he wants to build. And I think that can probably be hard if you are working with him. I imagine it's like if you were, you know, uh I was writing a book and you were like breathing down my neck and you're like, I know how to do this, you know? That's how I imagine working for David is. So, I mean, not to to speculate too much why that person left, but they're going to need a lot of good people to pull this off. I want to do it. I want to get scanned. Uh, I'm afraid what my body's going to tell me, but, you know, I I would like to see them pull this off.

11:30 >> Yeah. And just to be clear, there were a lot of notes. I mean, so this is ultrasound. MRI is different. David kind of was like pitching it as a MIRI replacement >> and then immediately X was freaking out. People are like, "It's not an MRI. MRI can see things, CT scans can see things that this couldn't see. You still need to get like a colonoscopy al which like I get. I I actually thought David was not I didn't feel like he was overpromised. He he was just kind of like we got this new tool.

12:00 >> I think it's helpful for a bunch of things. You could definitely track your body in a new way. So, I thought he was like okay on that part. And um but yeah, just to set people's expectations. I mean, you there's you're still going to go to the hospital for various things, but this just seems like a new way to uh to see inside your body. Um I thought he >> I I wrote about this in the in the substack that you Yeah, it's it's >> I remember I was interviewing Larry Page when I was doing the Elon book and he's like, "Oh, I wish I could do what Elon does." And >> I always found it so strange because at that time Larry had billions and billions of dollars and Elon was but a like barely a billionaire [laughter] >> and I was like you can't do that what do you mean you have like more money than God you know but there was there was like a thing he would you know he was CEO of Google at the time and and that comes with like this pressure where like you run off and do some side projects.

13:02 It's like are you paying attention to the business or if it fails it like looks bad for you and for Google. So I could kind of see that there were some constraints whereas like Elon would just run off doing things. But I've always been surprised when the billionaires, you know, we've got things like the Collisons put money in the Arc Institute or um you know billionaires will they'll fund their passions off to the side. Dustin Mosovitz with just sort of EA AI safety stuff >> and open philanthropy and all that it there. But I am surprised because so many of these dudes are sci-fi nerds that they, you know, and I'm that they don't create these labs in their image and and really dig in. I mean, Larry did end up doing things like he was trying to get flying cars going for a while and then Sergey Brins got his airship and so they do dabble. Bezos has some things.

13:58 Um, but it's like if you wanted to create almost like a Bell Labs or a Xerox Park of your own, these guys have the resources to do it, but then you have to be I always felt like Larry and Sergey dip in and dip out. They're not. It's It's like all the projects go for a while and then they kind of fizzle, >> right? >> That's that singular focus. You have to like really really want to do it. And Elon is, you know, singularly focused.

14:23 Even though he has all these things, Tesla, SpaceX, Twitter, but he seems like sort of laser focused on how do I create this sci-fi future, whereas the other people maybe the yachts and women in the Mediterranean are just too tanalyzing. >> Terizing. I mean, we'll have to see where David ends up on that spectrum. My sense was like he wants to I mean he clearly knew all the engineering. I don't know. My sense was like this he's into this and this is what he wants to do with his money and maybe and then he's in this unusual it is funny like Elon even when he he sort of had to raise money for Tesla and SpaceX but then he was really rich and he would still raise money for the Boring Company or Neuralink. I I never fully understood why he doesn't just pay for it himself. Maybe it's just cuz he could access capital so easily. It's like whatever, just let other people pay for this. But David seems to be dead set on funding this himself.

15:25 >> Yeah. >> And I don't know. I mean, if you really want to make something that's not a compromise, that's totally true to your taste and your dreams, I guess the way to do it. him like maybe we'll find out if he if he's kind of unique in this way. >> Totally. Totally. It could be like a another great founder story in the making or not. We'll see. Um another quick bit on Brian Johnson. So that was my first time meeting him. I was so excited cuz you know you see him I'm I'm extremely online. I've seen his tweets for years now and I thought he was quite scary looking in the whole project was nuts. So meeting him in person um nicest guy in the world. Oh my gosh, he's so sweet. The first thing I asked him was about his skincare routine because uh something my mom asked me before I I started potting was like, "Does he look like what does his skin look like in real in real life?" Uh it's very very perfect. And so I was pleased to find out we have some of the same skinincare regimes. And um then he was talking about Kate and how much he loves Kate and he was just so happy to talk about how in love he is. And I was like, "That's [ __ ] awesome, man." So that was that was the highlight of my evening was gossiping with Brian Johnson.

16:40 >> Do you have skinincare top tips? >> Tino. So I was I was staring at him and I was like, "You use tenino, don't you?" And he was like, "I do." And he told me how he uses it. And um we just I I was talking to him about salmon sperm. That's a big thing in the beauty community, especially in Korea. Uh PDRN, it's it's great. He uses that. He's trying to get it in the United States because it's illegal here. Just awesome, man. I want I want his whole breakdown.

17:07 >> I do not use salmon sperm or teninoid. Clearly. >> Yes. I [laughter] think I'm I'm too far gone tenoid now. >> Do you use sunscreen? >> No. >> Oh my god. [laughter] Men. My god. >> I've just played tennis for thousands upon thousands of hours. This is There's no hope. This This all ended like 25 years ago. It was >> There's still hope for some of us, Ashley. [laughter] Um, yeah. Who else was there? Dylan Field was there. Schultton Douglas from Anthropic.

17:37 Brian and Kate. >> Dylan was cool to talk to. I hadn't met him before, but I talked about uh Mafia cuz he was just a mafia person and he kind of failed miserably. >> Yeah. But everyone has been telling me he's the best mafia player. >> Really? You've been hearing that >> a lot. Everyone said he's the the the absolute best and the Yeah. >> Did you watch the second episode? >> No. No, I haven't yet. Oh, I mean he's not so good in there, but it's it's it's the big leagues in there. So, >> and Luke Nok was there, who was one of the first real big backers of SpaceX and has been on the board for a long time.

18:10 So, he was he was very rich, richer than he already was. Um, yeah. Anyway, it was a okay event. They were very restrictive on >> they made us turn our phones off. >> I was trying to order my Whimo by the like front door and some woman was like, "You can't have your phone." I was like, "I got to get out of here." And she's like, "You can wait in the lobby." They try to usher me out of the lobby and I was like, "Man, I'm not on these streets at this time in the evening. I'm not I'm I'm staying right here." They're very restrictive.

18:36 >> I fired up my metal glasses. Nonetheless, we'll see how much trouble I get into now that I posted these videos. >> I felt like an embarrassed kid. I was like, "God, Ashley, we're going to get in trouble." But he he was right. And he got some really good clips. I think my favorite was the interview with Brian. That was hilarious. >> You got you just got to do it, man. People need their content. It's >> true.

18:56 >> Committed. Um, okay. I think that is that it for the event? >> Yeah. Are you going to get Are you going to get scanned? >> I would do that. I mean, why not? That looks It looks It looks very It looks largely pleasant. Probably in some warm little bath for a minute. Um, yeah. I mean, why not? I mean, he's not wrong. I get kind of claustrophobic when I've had MRIs. So, yeah. Like, I would not do that unless it was dire circumstances.

19:23 So, definitely not in like a preventative >> fashion. Have you had a CT scan? >> I think I did a long time ago. I remember I fractured my pelvis playing tennis. I can't remember if it was I can't remember like what I I haven't had that many like big injuries, so I can't remember if it was like a CT or an MRI or >> CT scan's fine. The CT1 is where they inject you with liquid that makes you feel like you peed yourself. Oh, >> okay. Yeah, I may have done that back in the day, but definitely not any time recently that I remember.

19:50 >> I have a hard time believing it's colaic, but I mean, yeah, I I do the scan, man. I was, as I was watching it, I was already thinking like, okay, what swimsuit would I wear and where would David stand and [laughter] >> Oh, for shooting? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, absolutely. We would do a video on this if we could. Yeah. We're trying to trying to talk David Holtz into some video action. All right. What do we do at Core Memory? We cover innovative, fastmoving, forwardthinking companies, which is why core memory is sponsored by Brex because B is the intelligent finance platform for many of these companies. 30,000 companies from startups to the world's largest corporations rely on Brexit technology for their finances. They've got smart corporate cards, high yield business banking, and expense automation tools that are fantastic. I hate doing my expenses. And Brex's AIS software run right through those expenses, figure out where we're spending money and take care of so much stuff for you so you don't have to waste your time on it yourself. Go to brex.com/cormemory to learn more and just, you know, get with the program. Let's get going. Let's get out of this archaic finance software and move toward the future. Core memory and bre >> so anthropic fable. Uh need I explain for our audience? I mean fable was banned. It's as far as I can understand the first AI model that's ever been banned by the US government. And it was banned for any um like foreign nationals which a lot of people at Anthropic are.

21:33 Amanda Ascll for example is leads behavior there and is a foreign national so they just took it offline for everybody and there was a big big kurfluffle with the government and you had some takes on Twitter as you do. >> Yes. Yeah. I kind of got in trouble. I'm going to I have to like I'm going to have to tread carefully here. I was actually at anthropic while this was happening but I'm under some constraints on on what I can talk about. So I'll have to try to remember that in real time as it's going on. But um yeah, I mean usually when we do export controls, we Amanda is Scottish. We don't usually ban the Scots from [laughter] accessing American technology. So u it went it went pretty heavy. So yeah, I I mean I assume people have well people listening to this probably are aware. So the government anthropic came out with a new model. The government decided it was too the people were finding these jailbreaks where they could get in and do things the model's not supposed to do. And so the government banned it. It happened all very quickly. Yeah. So I was there on this Friday and like I walked in and Anthropic was at full alert cuz they like just received this notice from >> um someone in the government. I forget who. And and you know, it's just like really unclear how they're supposed to deal with this in some ways cuz they wanted them to like fix these holes, which the researchers in the security world quickly said like every model suffers from these holes and like they're really not very severe. And so you're essentially banning every model and definitely all the more powerful models coming after this. And so that seemed rather dramatic and they didn't give Anthropic very much time to fix this and they were immediately leaking all of this to Axios and Politico who were in my estimation the government was was leaking all this and in my estimation you know those first >> sort of like normal when this happens um on a juicy story like that that's being leaked is the first stories that come out are usually tilted to whoever's doing the leaking. And so these first ones were very progovernment, I thought.

23:41 And and they're talking about Daario's on some wellness retreat and was unavailable. He was he was not on a wellness retreat. Um and and so I it struck me, yeah, I mean I I had had a couple scotches when I was tweeting. It was [laughter] probably a little more active than I would normally be. Uh it did it struck me as as um a little bit petty and retribution for anthropic not letting the department of war use its models the way the department of war would like to. So there's clearly this confrontation where Daario, the CEO of Anthropic, is very um you know he's very opinionated. He's he's he has decided he how he thinks this technology should be rolled out and he's going to like stick to his guns and it's not really exactly how the feds would like it to be and I think they would like to control this stuff and so I thought they were making an example of anthropic really. Yeah.

24:44 >> And when you told me this take I think [clears throat] >> before you tweeted it I was like no man you know Anthropic sort of asked for this. They said for so so long people are going to build powerful models. The government should intervene. We should have some controls. And then they said that this is our biggest and most dangerous model. And then they released a version of it and then it got banned. So I thought well sort of just desserts.

25:07 And you know if if there's a security vulnerability it makes sense for the government to step in. And then uh I saw your tweets and someone was like why is your boss so mean? [laughter] And um and then you explained your position. I was like, "Oh, that does make sense." Because there's nothing I hate more than like sort of the press release spend as a as a scoop. Like that's just not real journalism. Sorry. It's you have some sort of scrutiny over your information.

25:37 Uh because you're really if you're such a big publication that everyone's reading, it's really important that you're you're leading the narrative. And so you're leading the narrative for who? So once I saw your perspective, I was like, "Okay, I get it. You're right." And ever since then seeing like the amount of feely required from Enthropic, one of the leading AI labs like bow to us and if you don't like we're going to punish you in a major way. That's that's just fundamentally very gross.

26:04 >> Yeah, I have lots of thoughts on that. I mean that's this is the precedent setting is bad. I mean, maybe Anthropic will be the only sort of person on on this current administration's [ __ ] list, but if we're at some situation where the government whenever they change their whims and there's, you know, like right now, Anthropic really has clearly taken the lead and you could argue they're pushing us technology forward as a whole. Is this really who we do? You want the government to just because they're cranky or don't like the way you do your business to uh be able to shut that down? What does that mean >> for everybody else? Even someone like Elon, I mean, look, I mean, Elon's been at Trump's side and then they've been screaming at each other on on Twitter and then they've come, you just don't know which way the winds are going to going to blow and who's going to be the favored nation. I just think it's a horrible way to for technology is so important and that like there will be a model where something like this is like an actual concern and you don't really want to do this play acting uh I cried wolf thing on the way to that moment I think but >> well anthropic kind of did that did they not >> no I mean they're not I don't think their hands are like totally clean on this verse but you know it's f because people give them a ton of grief for being doomers and maybe being people will say, "Oh, you say that mythos is so dangerous. This is like a PR tactic just like Sam said on our pod >> to make your model seem really cool." I tend just having spent time with them. I could be naive. I tend to think they genuinely believe that you could I think rational people could be divided on are they going about this the right way. I think they fully believe they are making a a good faith effort to go about this in the right way. what they've determined to be the right way. You know what I mean? Like I don't really think this is a PR thing. I think they >> I agree with you and I think people's sort of like criticism of it is like okay your way is the only way. I sort of experienced this this is dumb but I experienced this with my first effect of all twist the first time meeting somebody who had just decided you know in this uh issue a group was facing like this is the only morally correct way and I will not deviate from it. And it was I I disagreed greatly with it, but there was no swaying them off that track. And I was like, is this is this the sort of rationale to approach these problems with I I don't like the like lack of flexibility and stubbornness. However, I do think Anthropic has really shown some flexibility in this issue. And I think it was David Sax. I did not read that full tweet essay from him, but he I'm not I'm not reading all that. Um, but he said something along the lines of like they had the chance to fix it when we asked and they didn't. But my understanding is from your experience they like found out that day. How are you supposed to fix a major model and fix what in just like hours?

29:00 >> I think it was in like 90 minutes and then my read on this as a reporter, which I think is pretty spot-on because I've like gone through these things many times. You could tell the government wanted to leak this to the press and have this play out in the press, which is not really how I would think you would go about this. If they have some hole in that you want to fix, you would try to keep this like under wraps for as long as possible. Give all the various parties time to try to like adjust and fix things.

29:29 >> It seemed like they leaked it immediately. And then you could tell what's going on because first they come out and they say, you know, this has jailbreaks. We're concerned. And then it was like 12 hours later they're like, "Oh, also China has had access to this." And and that was actually the inciting incident that led to this. It was like, "If that's true, they would have leaked the China thing >> from the get-go because their original position was pretty weak.

29:56 >> It's like Dumb Dumb and Dumber in the mafia kneecapping you like just with like rubber chickens. Like what is happening?" >> And then Pete Hexath is issuing tweets where he's like spiking the football. He's just like anthropic sucks. I'm so glad we're doing this. And you're like, dude, >> we need the we're all on the same team, man. I mean, you know, it's it's at that point where you can tell this is like a >> this is a game. And then and then subsequently, I didn't tell you this, but I I talked to a couple people who were um way more savvy on like the government than I am. I mean, their contention was that there's there's factions within Washington now. They said that uh Bent is actually kind of he's quite sympathetic to Anthropic and was trying to handle this in a pretty um pragmatic way and then there's people like Pegsth who are who are not at all, you know, they're so upset about anthropics past decisions and behavior that that this is sort of the problem is that anthropics kind of like caught between these two worlds. And the other whole thing was that there seemed to be this technical debate and there was nobody like actually inside the government that could understand or be explained to the technical merits in a way that [laughter] you would go about solving this problem. And then there's the whole thing that like Amazon seems to be the one that ratted anthropic out.

31:17 Maybe that's not the right way to put it, but the flag >> I mean really they did but that makes that narrative has not really made a ton of sense to me. I don't know if we discussed it, but you know, some people said that makes sense because Anthropic is gaining too much power and it's a power play, but uh Amazon was like the first and maybe largest investment when Anthropic first got started. So, that makes like zero sense to me.

31:40 >> Super uncool, guys. I think there's one there's probably one scenario where Amazon because they run these massive data centers and has to like keep a track of of top like flagged to the government like oh hey >> we've seen this issue and then this just spiraled into this this thing you know what I mean they might not have been like hey you need to shut anthropic down just just sort of like hey you should be aware of this I had one this is >> way on the conspiracy theory and somebody was suggesting to me Amazon's trying to uh make hit where they almost have to acquire anthropic. Oh my god.

32:15 Yeah. To and this is this was them sort of putting pieces in play to to force this hand. >> That's a crazy conspiracy theory. I think Daario would commit sepatu before [laughter] letting that happen. Can you imagine? That's crazy. >> And then in the big picture, this is something that I always harp on. I mean, you know, the government has found itself in this position because companies now do things that the government used to do and that the government cannot do itself. You know, there's a world where obviously like the Manhattan project was governmentrun and and we could control the government could control what happened to these weapons, what happened to this type of technology. In this particular case, the government cannot match what these venture-backed and and public companies can do in terms of the size of their data centers, the the abilities of their AI technology.

33:11 And so they are in this position where um it's probably uncomfortable. It reminds me of like SpaceX when all the Ukraine there was this moment where Elon was going to turn off Starlink in Ukraine and and so the government was really upset about that. But you were totally beholdened to Elon's whims on this issue because the government didn't have their own >> space internet which like they could have built if they part of this is is like it's this interesting moment where the companies have more money and >> I also think we reach this point where the government is so ineffective like I like I don't think it it could actually build some of the stuff even if it put billions of dollars and energy behind it. And so it's kind of like by being pathetic that you're now at the mercy >> of how this plays out. Yeah.

34:02 >> I don't know. It's going to be weird. >> It's going to be weird. I don't think you know uh the government should have such control over models in a petty debate like that's that's crazy. We have had so much time it feels like to to set guard rails and and like actual productive laws and regulations for AI companies and it feels like 2023 people were saying we're running out of time to do this and now it's 2026 and our answer is to just you know like flat out ban somebody who's not bending the knee and then all the AI people went to a summit with Trump. Um I'm not super caught up in what they discussed but uh oh and then also uh an executive for anthropic I don't know if you saw this in Korea they were doing some sort of uh panel or talk and they said that they're optimistic that in the coming days Fable will come back. So maybe by the time we publish this Fable will be back but I I sort of doubt it.

34:56 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all it's very strange and and I'm sure China there's just times when like they don't have to do anything. We we just uh just do it to ourselves. Um but so if we are >> people seem pretty convinced I mean if if mythos and fable weren't already there that the next turn of these models. Yeah. I mean it's it's only going to get more dramatic. And then you have people >> Bernie Sanders and others calling to like nationalize these L. I don't know how this is all going to play out. This is wild.

35:30 >> It's wild. When I first saw the news I I don't know. Like maybe it's just an overreaction to like having covered AI for so long and watched this play out for so long. But like my heart sank. I was like, "Oh my gosh, they're actually doing it. They're banning their first AI model and it's this one." I don't know. >> Yeah. All right, pod friends. I am here to tell you about Send, Cut, Send. They are a manufacturing phenomenon. Whether you're working on your own car or you're a giant automotive company, a rocket maker, if you need metal cut machine or bent, you're going to send. They'll do it for you right and they will do it for you fast. Go to sencuts.com/corememory for a 15% discount on whatever you're trying to make. We love Senutsen. Go visit them today.

36:22 more from AI land. Can I be a nerd for a minute, >> please? I would love that. >> We didn't cover this last time we chatted, but Okay, people bear with me for one second. So, so Deep Mind and a company formerly known as CCP Games and now known as Feneris have created this partnership. Fenerris aka CCP Games makes Eve Online, which if you are a nerd, [laughter] >> have you played that? I've I've played it a bit. It's very It's a very hard game. The the barrier to entry is extremely high. So, it's set in space.

36:58 You're um Okay, this game's been around for about 20 years. It's fascinating for so many reasons. So, I I've I've been interested in it more as like a reporter than than a player. Um but you're set in space. It's it's like just barren emptiness and you have to kind of like find a way to survive in this wasteland. It was It came out of Iceland. It's it's it's makes a lot of sense. Iceland itself is quite like the game is this wasteland where you have to ek out a living and and the game has always been is fascinating to me because so unlike many of these multiplayer type games that are split among lots of servers. So you're not always playing with the same people. You're in different worlds.

37:43 You're you get cordoned off wherever you happen to log on. Eve has always been one universe. So, everybody since the dawn of time of playing this game has inhabited the same universe and there's only about I think there's like 3 or 400,000 people that play this like like super >> often and so it's been going on for like 20 years and there's this incredible um society that's emerged in there. So, you've got like part of this is you can you can survive and Eve in all sorts of different ways. You could choose to be like a general commanding armies and you could build a spaceship and outfit it.

38:19 There's some people who just never battle. They never do the whole fighting spaceship thing. They are like traders on a planet and they mine goods and they do like arbitrage and sell these goods and there's this crazy economy within the game and and then there's these because it's been in the same universe for 20 years. people write like all the myths up in like actual physical books of the great battles that took place. And so yeah, it's this really unique um sort of phenomenon. I've been >> to Iceland for this like Eve fest.

38:51 People come from all over the world and and the game it does it sort of has it doesn't really have like rules. It's like sort of set in motion and then the players have some influence on how that world is pushed in different directions. are like at Evefest the these they elect these like space politicians and they meet with CCP games now Fenris to like sort of discuss what they would like to see happen and anyway so the point of this is like it is in some ways the closest thing we have to a like simulated world >> and like a very rich one with with like they have an economist that has to deal with inflation and all these things happening in the simulated world and so deep mind deep and put this huge investment into Eve Online and has created this like partnership around them to study this world as like a way to inform their future AI models. And what I find fascinating about this is this was like always Demis' this was like his goal was like he's always dreamed of creating this super rich AI and and really building it off of video games. I mean the the Go stuff, all of that. It really started as like we're going to go game by game >> until we get to the most sophisticated games and if we can model those with AI then we've kind of like done it. And then >> Transformers and LLMs came along and they were way more brute force. It was just >> buy a ton of computers. You just buy more computers and more data and and it was just very crude compared to like what Demis' vision >> Yeah.

40:28 >> of what this technology should be. So, I feel like this is like a he's kind of going back to his roots and I can't tell how big of a deal to make of all this, but I feel like they've created this partnership and have almost this like magical petri dish now to experiment on >> and and so this happened a couple weeks ago. People in gaming world were like paying a lot of attention to this, but I think other people are like, "What the [ __ ] is this weird?"

40:55 >> No, I just read about it. [laughter] I just read about it before podcasting because you said you wanted to nerd out on it. Uh world models are one of the things that make my eyes sparkle. I just love hearing about it. I love the idea behind, you know, it it just makes perfect sense to me. I'm a broken record on this pod in generally. It it just makes sense that if you want to teach new intelligence, it needs a world to learn from rather than just being in a black box. We don't grow up in a black box and learn everything we know just by people telling us. So the way that you laid out this world is sick and it seems like the perfect mechanism to test this theory.

41:34 >> That's crazy. And in your notes you're saying so it's going to be on a offline version of the game where they're going to run these experiments so it doesn't impact the the regular players. And Demis personally >> was putting out tweets about this. He was in the press release like I know this is I think this is a thing. I think this is I think this is like an undercover deep deep thing that he's he's into. Yeah. And um >> so funny like they e these guys there's >> I was in a van in Iceland with the like elected body of space politicians. This was like 2017 maybe something like that.

42:13 And >> and I was hanging out with them. So there's I think there was like eight of them maybe. And I'm in this van with this dude. He was I think he was Russian, but he lived in New York and he installed windows on skyscrapers in New York. That was like his day job. So >> sick. >> That's what he does like for eight hours a day, but then he would spend he would spend probably even more time each evening >> and he commanded >> an army of 50,000 people. I mean like like so like his day job he's like window installer guy and then at night he's like CEO of a huge company managing all these people. There was another guy, he was a car mechanic in England and he was kind of doing the same thing with like a smaller army. And this world is is fascinating. And they've had they have had they were the first video game company that I'm aware of that did hire an economist because you can you sort of sell um what amount to >> obviously you can use real world real world money to buy credits in the game but then these credits end up taking on like their own economic value within the game. So you will get things like inflation and certain things will become valuable and they have to like control all this stuff and then people would hire they would like hire people to play their characters >> and it was like affecting they anyway it's fascinating.

43:37 >> No it you know does a pod go by without mentioning my grandpa. So when growing up my favorite experience was going into my grandpa's office and he'd be playing games like this. I was just trying to remember what it was. Uh, he put me on Aeon. A I O N. Did you ever hear about that game? Oh my god, I was obsessed with it. And then Elder Scrolls Online. I used to play with him. Um, what is the the one with uh like Hell Hell's Angels people? Diablo. Diablo. So anyways, these games I would watch him play with his headset and have his little team and he still plays these games to this day.

44:12 I have to ask him. Starcraft, I think, is something uh he plays. I think that was mentioned in the announcement, but anyways. Um, I think it's sick and it's it's funny that they're doing it in a way that's not going to disturb the players as they should, but I was just imagining the mutiny that would incur from that. >> No, that Yeah, they would freak out. This stuff is like religious >> precious. Yes. So, no, that's [ __ ] sick.

44:35 >> It's pretty cool. Last last thought on this just to dish out all my Eve knowledge in one go. I think it was I think the the game started Okay, these guys wanted to make a video game. I think there were three of them. these three Icelanders and but they needed to raise money and so they created a board game. I think it was called Hetespiel and it's something like family game or something like that and >> and it worked. It was the like 80% of the Icelandic population bought this game. It's like everybody played it in their house and that's how they raised money to then go develop Eve Online.

45:12 >> Wow. And then the company was called CCP Games all these years until this deal with Google and they changed the name of the company to Fenerous like because they were tired of the CCP go to China. >> I know. I was like that's an like a really unfortunate acronym. I [laughter] was wondering when we were going to address that. >> Yes. Yeah. I ran into a a satellite integration company one time that was called ISIS [laughter] like before before ISIS happened.

45:40 >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. I think they actually still exist. [laughter] Um, okay. All right. That's all I have to say on the moment. >> So, well, uh, a nice segue is Nome Shazir has gone to OpenAI. Um, the reason I wanted to move this up is because he was a key author on the Transformers paper. Uh, he went to character a went on to found character AI um, uh, porn bots for children. Sorry. Um and then Google bought it and well sort of Aqua hired him and executives >> a billion or multiple billions of dollars.

46:16 >> A ton of money. Um and then he's been tinkering there. From what I recall, he left to found Character AI because Google he wanted to do that at Google and they wouldn't let him do it or he was getting you know blocked from this big dream. And then he went back to Google and now he's going to open AAI to work on new model architectures which is interesting because we're just laying out like Demis' grand plan that we think with world models and this game and Gnome has left to do whole new architectures for OpenAI.

46:46 >> Yeah. And it's not like Gnome hasn't got attention, but there's going to be a ton of people listening to this who probably haven't heard his name. And he's like the transformer. He's like the dude who sort of kicked off what we've seen for the last six years in many ways and and it was open AI that really took some of his thoughts and innovations and applied all this compute to them that gave rise to chat GPT in a lot of ways. like Google kind of missed their own >> y >> their own thing and then yeah like you said he left and then they paid so much money to get him back to kind of like revive their own >> AI hopes and dreams and so it's fascinating that he would he would go to their arch rival and like not hurting for money so must you would think would be going there for >> love of the work or something I mean I mean it's not yeah I mean I'm sure Google could pay him they already gave him a ton of money pay him whatever he wants Yeah, you're you're just making me realize I don't think I've ever seen him on stage at Google IO just like flagging like AI products that he's working on.

47:49 He's not been like a a figure at Google and the way that they just sort of parade around their their experts on stage. So, I I don't know what opening I offered him. I think it's definitely for the love of the game. I would love to see what new architectures he's thinking of. Like, will they go the world model route? I you know, I I don't know how that plays out. And we had Jerry Toracon who was trying to do stuff like that and he left because he couldn't do it within OpenAI and um and is now at uh core automation. So he's a fellow core >> core buddy.

48:23 >> It's core buddy. Um but yeah this is fascinating. I when I first read the the announcement of Gnome's thing on X, for some reason I saw him going to anthropic in my head, which made a lot of made more sense in my head than uh >> OpenAI's really go into the >> the rival. I mean, I guess they're all rivals in some ways, but yeah, I don't know. Sometimes Anthropic seems to pick up these these people in a sort of different way. And then OpenAI's had a pretty big exodus of talent.

48:50 >> Yeah. >> Over the last couple years, like very very key people. And so, so yeah, big hire. >> Big hire. I I sense more OpenAI models are coming soon, breaking. They're going to release more models probably this year. And I'm interested to see like how Gnome would play a role in that. And I think, you know, it was was it 2024 around December when we were hearing like uh scaling has hit a wall. Every headline scaling has hit a wall. And uh 5.5 people had some or sorry, excuse me, five. When five came out, people were concerned that it wasn't, you know, as good as they thought it would be. Maybe 03 should have been five and people were griping about that. So, I think they do really need some juice and Gnome would be the one to bring that.

49:36 >> I forgot about the scaling. Has it a wall thing that lasted for what, like five weeks? >> It was It was I just I can't forget it. It was so long that people were making this claim. It was huge. And [laughter] >> yeah, I mean, in some ways I could I could see I could see the argument, but it was just so like sensationalized and and drawn out and and incorrect, honestly. >> Really incorrect. And I remember I was I was like in a OpenAI all hands when I think it was the information dropped some scaling is a wall >> Yeah.

50:08 >> story. And I'm sitting in there and Sam's giving a talk and Mer they're like all we're barging forward doing this that. I'm like Where is reality? I mean, somebody's somebody's wrong. It's either and and I'm like kind of flagging the reporters on that one, but there are people in the AI world who like scaling is it a wall? I mean, that was really where it was coming from. >> Um, sometimes the stuff is so funny cuz it's it's like nobody actually knows anything. I think it's like you keep hearing >> we're about to hit the moments when the models are just improving themselves and humans are about to be >> out of the loop and I like fully buy into that some days and then some days I'm like wait we seem to like kind of get everything wrong on >> it this is such a strange moment to be in where yeah like the it feels like the faith of the world is hanging on these things that nobody actually really knows how it will play out. Yeah, >> I think we've sort of lost that narrative in the media. Like I think people just believe now that AI is going to keep progressing and so we don't see that like it's it's so over. It's not going to get better. Now we see more of the narrative of like what do we do now that it's getting better all the time.

51:20 >> That is funny. I mean I Yeah. I mean as we're I'm just playing this through in my head as we're it is hilarious. Like we were fully chatbt had taken off. Everything had changed. and it had totally stopped and like now we're just in it and >> yeah, it never it never stopped. I I like a [snorts] common thing in the AI world is like do you believe in a straight line on a graph? Like and at a point I I think around 03 I was like you're you're right. I'm going to stop being as skeptical that this is all going to fail because it's clearly just blowing my mind every update.

51:53 >> There's definitely a bit of change. I can't remember if we talked about this or not, but yeah, all the my I don't do much politics, but I listen to a couple political podcasts and all these folks I like in DC were just so anti- AI. It's all like a it's just a bubble and then they've all come around. You know, obviously, even if it stopped today, the world would be changed in some very fundamental ways. And I I don't think it's going to stop. Well, it just stopped with the government.

52:25 >> It's so over again. >> We'll turn it back on. [laughter] >> Um, do we have thoughts on the Snapchat glasses? I only looked at them briefly. >> Well, you would be able to nerd out about this more than anyone, but I mean, my big hot take is that they're so unattractive. >> Let's look. Let's look. >> They're So, I'll riff on this. They're so unattractive. I like wearing them. >> They're huge. [laughter] They're huge. The size, they're like, "It has so much computing." I'm like, "Obviously, obviously, dude." [laughter] And then it's priced at uh 2,200. And uh [laughter] >> let me see this on the screen. Uh >> oh gosh.

53:08 >> I mean, is that real? [laughter] >> That's real. There's some fake ones. >> This is a This is a video of Evan Spiegel. I Yeah, cuz I saw some fake ones where they were mocking up. They actually look like Is that real? If that if that's real, that's >> I think that's the real one. >> Somebody I saw arguing like, "Uh, yes, they're big, but you're kind of making a design statement that if that is real, that is >> this thing going on in the back is totally >> a product overhang [laughter] >> and they're like $2,200.

53:42 >> Who's supposed to buy these?" >> So, okay. uh from TechCrunch. Uh the company's stock has just it took a big hit from this be they think because of the price. You know, the big concern surrounding Snap's new smart glasses uh is the cost and it's worthy of notes. >> This is real for sure. He's on CNBC. Oh my god. Okay. Sorry. Go. >> This is where he So, this interview is where he talks about like uh the cost and he says, you know, they're priced like a high-end computer cuz that's what they are. But I mean that is a high-end computer on your face for sure.

54:14 >> Yeah. And so they're AR. I mean, I love my Meta glasses, but I usually use the nonAR ones. And then um we did I got my hands on the AR ones, which are which are bigger than the regular Metaglass, not that [ __ ] big. [laughter] And and um I don't like the AR ones as much as I like the regular the they're when I was using it, they had not I don't think they had opened up the API and so there really wasn't that much you could do with it. Although they subsequently have wait okay so sorry who's but like Snapchat people who use Snapchat are still like children right >> so that's the thing is that so their demographic is children and children don't often have $2,200 to drop on big glasses that they'll get made fun of [laughter] for at school. Um, yeah. I mean, I I saw the Meta AR glasses at IO and I remember thinking those are big and I could not imagine wearing those, but these are like the Snap ones are comical. Like they're they're a gag.

55:16 >> This Snap unveils new spec new specs smart glasses after previous disasters. That's that's the headline for the BBC. That's what you want on your products. Yep. Released. He's so Evan's clearly been this is his quest. I mean, he's been at this for year. He wants these glasses bad. Stop it. Nothing. >> So, you know, I'm not an expert. So, here's just my hot take is that Mark Zuckerberg stole the stories thing. >> And now Evan Spiegel is on a lifelong hunt to destroy Mark Zuckerberg. And it's uh it's this version is a little sad >> on the glasses. Okay. Yeah. And then I mean obviously yes I do like these things and I'm people some people tease me about this. I don't care but it feels to me so there is I I do think there is going to be something here. I mean I like I like taking my So I don't like air I don't like earbuds >> and most people I see clearly are fine with it. I just I like hate them for some reason. I find it really weird to do >> phone I like doing phone calls on my glasses.

56:23 >> Yeah. >> No, that is nice. the bone conductor. >> It's just like way more. It's just very comfortable and you're just kind of like walking around doing >> it's surprisingly like really good at picking you up on the other end. >> Really good. And it's like you can hear really clear. And then obviously I love it for all like the video stuff we do. But I feel like that's a pretty niche um use case for most people. But uh >> they're usually used by perverts on the streets which is why I am afraid to wear them outside of the studio.

56:48 >> Great. [laughter] >> It's a thing. It's like four perverts who are going up to women are like, "Hey, like you know, will you talk to me?" And then they post it on TikTok. Like that's their use case right now. >> This got awkward. [laughter] >> I surely you knew this. >> I I did not. >> That's crazy. >> I use mine for like filming fish cutting robots and stuff like >> I I love like your sort of boomer love of Ray-B bands and I don't want that to stop, but that that's the reason why I can't wear them in public. I did not know this was the class of people that I >> People in the comments are going to be like, "How did you not know that?"

57:21 >> I'm naive. I'm just stuck in my nery. >> I I would prefer you to be stuck in their nery. >> But I feel like there is some f there is some kind of future with this stuff. I think >> so. Maybe I don't know maybe >> the vision like you know the capability to see your surroundings and store that data and use that data to train um and god trusting meta with all of that uh is a lot. Uh maybe I'd trust Snapchat a bit more. I don't know. I think that's the queasiness most people feel. Like if I really want something to be recording my day-to-day life that is it gets to a point and neither of us are very what's the word? So privacy clean. Like I don't think either of us care a ton on that regard. But you know people in our day-to-day lives like the like what I'm saying with the creeps it's you go out now my experience if I wear these um people are like are you recording me like it gets very antagonistic very very quickly. So I don't know it's the Snapchat version is like uh look over there but be cool about it and then you have these gigantic >> gigantic Yeah. [laughter] who like who you what age do people okay when we're thinking about our social media strategy nobody's ever telling me like we should do stuff on Snapchat like who like is it still a thing or I don't even who who and why >> do your kids use it >> no no this is why guys so I have no I have no frame of reference on >> um it's for [laughter] >> Snapchat's never going to sponsor us um it's for drug dealers and horny teenagers [laughter] I stopped using it in college um I used to be in like all these group chats with friends from college that like I think my iPhone offloaded it because I haven't used it in so long, but it has all my Snapchat memories which they recently payated and I I don't care a ton of.

59:08 >> You have to pay to access your own stuff. >> Yeah, this is like new of the last like this year. Uh but I haven't gone back to go download them all for what is it like two bucks. I don't I don't care enough. But yeah, I haven't used Snapchat in so long and it's such a red flag at the ripe age of 27 if someone's like add me on Snapchat. It's like, oh, you're >> This is what I was wondering because I I am old now, but when I see when I see young people doing things, they they seem to be like, "Hit me up on Insta."

59:36 Yeah. >> And but there So there is some class of people that act that prefer Snapchat for that. >> Yeah. They just like I said, and [laughter] I won't say it again, but yes, that is exactly the class that still uses it. But I don't have teenagers in my life. I mean, my my closest is my 20year-old sister, and she does not use Snapchat. So, I don't know. If your kids don't use it, then that's the end of my rope.

59:59 >> They definitely don't. My son only just signed up for Instagram, one of my sons, and he's 17 and um barely uses it. Yeah, >> you have very sweet boys. So, >> they're sweet. I hope they stay that way. I was like, "Please don't get on there." I I felt like we did really well how far >> That's crazy. >> We got Yeah. And then you know me, I'm always firing stuff up on X and I'm like I want to send it to and I'm like don't don't send it to him. Let's don't keep him X exists. [laughter] Even though I'm being incredibly witty >> even though your dad is killing it over there.

60:34 >> U Okay, we're almost done. What else we got? You hung out with Dan >> Tumi. Let's do our little little um >> who I love Dan. Dan's like uh he does well he's with Morning Brew but he does some of the best um poking fun at the tech industry. >> He's an amazing comedian and journalist honestly. He was asking me about how to get scoops and I was like I don't know dude you just sort of you do it forever.

60:59 Um but no he's he's incredible. So I I did a video with Dan Tumi. He was in San Francisco and he had messaged me like a month ago about like do you do you want to do a segment with us on being a woman in San Francisco? cuz we heard there's no women and >> so like but not like a deep journalistic serious thing. No. >> No. No. No. Just making fun of it really. And uh they came to my apartment, him and his camera guy, and we just sat on my couch and oh my gosh, I I can't imagine what footage is going to come out of that. I don't know cuz I was trying to be funny. We talk about dating. His funniest joke, oh, I'll sell him out a little bit, was uh when you go on a date in San Francisco, who pays you or the company you guys are expensing from. [laughter] That was hilarious. Um but yeah, so I recorded with Dan Tumi.

61:47 Be on the lookout for that or don't cuz I don't know how how ridiculous I'm going to look. But um what else has been up? >> Well, and he is a standup, right? >> Yeah, he does stand up in New York. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. He's like touring around. His website is up to date. Um, he's [ __ ] hilarious. I mean, >> I don't even think like >> I mean, he's definitely taking the piss out of the tech industry, but I don't even I some of the thin skinned tech people, I'm sure, would be annoyed by it, but it's like it's it's pretty good, man.

62:16 >> No, it's really funny. It's really funny there. It's not cheap shots. It's like genuinely funny. >> Sorry. Thank Yes. >> Yeah. Not cheap shots. Uh, no, it was hilarious. He just explored San Francisco. I think he went to Alma Square Park and talked to women about dating. Um, he's he's exploring effect of altruism. Dude, he's I I can't wait to see it. But he was really nice. It was awesome to talk to him. We geeked out about, you know, tech being super online and all that jazz. Um, other than that, so our life updates. Got my COVID vaccine. So, I am low energy, which Ashley hates. Whenever I'm low energy, he's like, "Are you okay? Are you okay?"

62:54 >> I was like, "Let me find one of my friends to inject you with." >> [laughter] >> I needed an IV and a peptide stat, dude. That [ __ ] killed me. Um, I had forgotten what CO felt like and it it killed me. And then I went to the Matrix and got uploaded and felt all and it had four old fashions and then felt a lot better. >> That's why I was I was like, we'll counteract this vaccine with an old fashion and get you to where you need to get. [laughter] >> Four old fashions later, I'm not even hung over. I feel great. I feel amazing.

63:24 So, more drinking on the horizon. We have the World Cup and um Ashley's country beat my country recently, which is annoying. >> Yeah, I'm a mess though cuz I can just I can just bandwagon wherever I want between South Africa, Australia, and the United States. I just although not really a huge winner among any of those three, but but seem to be doing better so far. Yeah, I just have Turkey in the States, but a friend of the pod, Jaden Atlas, he's very Australian and it's Aussies versus US on Friday. We were supposed to record this on Friday, but Ashley was like, "Hey, bud."

64:01 >> I was like, "I'm going to be need to be drinking during that time." And uh yeah, the soccer ruse, which is so adorable. It's uh sort of pathetic, but [laughter] >> but I'm gonna be I'm probably going to be drinking with Jaden because I was drinking with him during the Turkey Aussie game. And uh yeah, that's what I plan to do on Friday. >> All right. You got to say Aussie. >> Aussie? >> Yeah. >> Not Aussie.

64:20 >> Yeah. >> Aussie. >> Yeah. >> Whatever. >> No, I'm going to have to That one's going to have to stick. [laughter] >> Let me Let me call Shelto and Jaden real quick. >> They're going to back me up on this. I promise. I promise. Yeah. No, you gota be This Aussie Aussie Aussie Aussy Aussie o >> Oh, they were cheering that in the bar. Yeah. [laughter] >> Um yeah, the World Cup is fun. I am not a huge football person, but fully buy in every >> Does it scare you to say soccer?

64:51 >> No, I was just trying to be I was trying to be a little more uh No, no, no. [laughter] I would never uh No, it's just, you know, most of >> just leaning in leaning in to the moment. Yeah. And we had some games >> over here at Levi Stadium right by my house. Um but I haven't >> Oh, how was that? Well, the traffic I haven't gone h it doesn't I'm not that close. [laughter] >> Fair.

65:14 >> Yeah. Um but it's always a cool time of the year. The US team looks like they might be legit. Probably is by the time this airs the Australians might have handed them their ass and all the uh hopes and dreams will be gone. Although, okay, while we're on sports, >> yeah, >> I must do this. Um >> tennis time. >> Tennis time. So, I watched the full four episodes of the Rafa documentary. It was really good there. The sports do.

65:43 Yes. Yes. >> Um, is Rafa the one that's kind of angry as a person? >> No. Rafa is a sweet gentleman. Are you thinking of Novak Jo? >> The one that like Yeah. breaks the rack. Like I I watched a tennis documentary where he just loves to break that racket and just gets so mad. It's not Rafa. >> No. Nick Curios would be like the biggest racket breaker I could think of. Or Oh, did you watch the You watched the that Netflix series. Next one where yeah the tenn they follow the other you were watching Daniel Medvidev. Um that's him.

66:14 >> Yeah he's Russian. He that was like he he's not like notorious for that. He goes through little bouts where he gets upset. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And Alexander Verv a little >> that one was weird. I think it was called Breakpoint. Yeah. And they made Danell out to be like the bad guy in that series, but he's actually like incredibly loved and super fun and has a great personality. That was a weird choice. >> No, it was Nick. It was this guy.

66:40 >> Nick Curios. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, he's Aussie and Oh, I see. Yeah. He He's He's kind of like the bad boy of tennis. >> Okay. So, it's not Rafa. What happened with >> Oh, God. Rafa is a saint. Um Rafael Nadal. You You don't know who Raphael Nadal is? >> No, dude. I don't follow tennis whatsoever. Like you know who Roger Federer is. >> Oh my god. Oh god. We have a lot of work to do, >> dude.

67:03 >> Okay. Raphael Nadal is Spanish. He is considered in the top three best tennis players of all time with Roger Federer and Novak Jookovic. He is a He's famed for his work ethic, his um competitive spirit. I have I I will now brag. I have met Rafa. I interviewed him at Larry Ellison's um >> Whoa. >> Yes. So Larry Larry Ellison owns this tournament called Indian Wells and there used to be a club a golf club called Porcupine Creek and Larry Ellson bought this entire golf club and turned it into his house. So he's got a 18hole golf course. Jesus.

67:46 >> He's got his own tennis courts. He's like moved into like whatever used to be the clubhouse. >> Not solving the matrix. and and when when uh Raphael Nadal and Roger Federer would come into town for the tournament, they would live at Larry Ellison's compound. And so I did a story for Business Week. Larry Larry bought this tournament. It was like a really big deal because the US was about to lose it to to a foreign country and Larry stepped in and then he subsequently put so much money into it. People say it's like the best tournament in the world and it's like basically on par with the Grand Slams and all this stuff. And anyway, so I was doing a story on all this Larry taking over this tournament and um this is like one of my brilliant uh um moves to uh use my large assaine writer to go hang out in a tennis tournament for a week and and I and so I was interviewing Rafa for the story at Larry Ellison's house and then he's got a he had a tennis cabana. Um, so he's had three courts and then this like it was this cabana was like bigger than my actual house literally. And >> and so I go in before Rafa got there, I went to use the restroom and and Larry had like the fanciest Toto toilets I've ever seen in the restroom. And then I turn and then obviously I'm a tennis nerd. And I turn and there's this cupboard full of Rafa's rackets. Like I immediately recognized them cuz they're yellow and they're all very distinctive and and I was I was just like I mean there were so many. I'm like I can clearly take one of these and no one will notice if I just if I just borrow one of these >> just like a tennis racket.

69:29 Yes. Yes. No one will notice. had been and then I was kind of like hanging out for a minute and then Rafie came in and he's like uh had no handlers and he's like can I make you a coffee I was like what do you mean there's there were literally two butlers [laughter] like I don't need a coffee you definitely don't need to make me a coffee he really wanted me to drink something he's like how about some of my coconut water [laughter] and and he was so polite he was a nice guy we we chatted for like an hour I actually kind of controlled myself and didn't fang girl.

70:02 >> No. >> Out. Yeah. Um but >> is he Aussie? >> No, he's Spanish. But he's like he's >> there's these people, you know, they always say don't meet your heroes or whatever. I mean, you know, he was very nice in our interview. And then for that whole week, I had this press pass, which is awesome at Indian Wells. I got to just like be where the players eat lunch and like and I would just watch him. He would go get sushi from the thing. He like knew all the people's names. He was didn't have like people fawning over him. he just went wherever, you know, he's doing his thing and um was totally down to earth. This comes through in the documentary. The documentary is really well done. I a lot of these these days with the professional athletes in particular, they become the producer on the documentary and it's like you never know what story you getting this this sanitized version of their story because they're essentially controlling it.

70:53 Whereas like Agassy right now, Apple's doing a dock on him. I think he Apple basically like paid him to do a documentary and then he goes and like finds the team to do his own film which is >> if you do what we do it's a bit weird we try to keep we we keep the journalism standards high you know and like like when we did the Brian >> documentaries like I mean and Chris Smith the director we controlled everything you know what I mean and same thing on >> I can't imagine doing it like Daily Mail style where they pay for that's Crazy, >> right? It is weird. So, my understanding is the Rafa do was not like that. And he actually um Yeah. And he had this line.

71:33 I saw him being interviewed by Andy Rodic, another tennis player, um about the documentary, and he was like, "Look, um you know, at some point, he's like, either you're not going to do it or you're just going to do it right and just deal with the consequences, whether they're good or bad, but like you just kind of go all in. And and I recommend this to all subjects of uh documentaries is if you're going to do it just, you know, trust trust the process a bit. And you might not like like everything >> about it, but I think I would obviously argue there's a authenticity and realness that comes through and it's going to make a better better film.

72:10 >> That's what I love watching. like if I don't I don't understand the ins and outs of any of these sports, but I love like or documentary or otherwise love seeing like sort of peak authenticity and sort of greatness and craft and you know that's going to if either of us were in a like a documentary subject, we're not perfect humans. There's going to be some angles you don't like. But if you're authentic and yeah, if you do it right and you approach it open with an open mind, >> it's a it's tricky cuz there are there are arguments against everything we've just been saying, which is that whole Michael Jordan um the the what is it?

72:45 The Last Dance that came out during COVID on the Chicago Bulls. Michael Jordan was the producer on that. And you know, some people would argue it's like one of the best sports documentaries of all time. Um the Beckhams. Did you watch the David Beckham? >> I did. Yeah. >> So, he was a producer on that. It was pretty good. I mean, like I don't think you saw >> you didn't see what some people might argue is like a dark side of D or like his flaw. But they were >> there. I mean, that documentary is great because they're both so hot. Like I was I I don't care about anything else. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Posh Spice and David Beckham. Oh my gosh."

73:20 >> So that's where the this the journalism debate is is like it's a hotness. If you're hot enough, we can >> I don't know if I need real journalism about Posh Spice and David Beckham. Uh but >> okay, that is the other question. It's like it's like do I need to know like does any you know obviously if they were doing some horrendous [ __ ] and it's like really informing the story, but it's like do I need to know when David Beckham like like yelled at someone for like a thing? I don't know.

73:50 >> No, >> that's not why people are watching that. >> Don't care. Yeah. >> So, it is weird. There is there are these like the the whole business has gotten very strange that this like used to never happen. You >> the the line was always very clear. You were the subject of this thing. You had no financial anything and you had no final cut and and it was just getting made about you and you were agreeing to it. And then most of these celebrity athlete, singer, actor, all that stuff.

74:20 Michael Jackson movie that came out in theaters was also like a Jackson estate production. >> And we saw like the Prince one is the most famous where they spent years working on this documentary. People who have seen it say it's incredible but the Prince estate has blocked it and it's like never going to see the light of day. Um and I just find some of this stuff like tragic. Yeah. >> Totally. Totally. So the Rafa dock was not like sort of yelling at people.

74:48 >> No. And I don't think he does that anyway, but it was um he was uh you well so the most tension is his uncle was the one who really trained him and and his uncle clearly is >> um a psychopath in a way that like may some people would argue you have to be to have someone achieve this sort of success and other people would argue is way too far. >> Tends to be the case. I mean, you played tennis your whole life, but that tends to be the case for the great of tennis.

75:18 Like, they have some father figure who's breaking their kneecaps over it, >> like Agassi, Nadal, all these things. There are people who haven't had that happen and they achieve success. But yeah, I mean, that's the tension in the duck like Raphael Nadal and his family and they're all sort of like debating. But, you know, Rafa comes out, he's like, "No, this is sort of what I needed." and maybe um cuz he ends up having this just tremendous amount of injuries over 20 years and he's like maybe all this contributed to that, but like we'll never know or maybe it was just always going to happen and and I don't know. So anyway, so they they're pretty open about all that dysfunction or or whatever the tension in it and yeah and it was and it's good. My wife who is like not into sports um watched the whole thing mostly to like keep practicing her Spanish which is getting quite good but she was in tears at the end.

76:09 >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I'm going to watch this. >> Yeah. >> When I'm off Friday. [laughter] >> It's pretty good. I got a signed shirt from Rafa in my house. >> Wa. >> I love it. >> Uh any other big Ashley updates? What have you been up to? >> I went fishing with the robot from this company called Shinc Systems just two days ago. We went out to Mororrow Bay, which is like central California coast, and it was pretty cool. So, this this robot does um I'm going to look it up while we're talking.

76:38 >> Ashley sent non-stop videos of whales and sharks and the like. >> We saw so many. So, there's this technique for killing a fish called the Ikajime method. And basically, you catch the fish, you try to jab it in the brain as quickly as possible, and then slit. It's gills to drain the blood. And so they've been doing this in Japan forever. And the theory is that it's you're gonna end up with way well first of all that it's like more humane. I think when you're being nice to animals, it's still humane.

77:11 >> Um and then >> and then you end up with better meat because otherwise >> shocked or what? >> Well, no. The fish just they this is a pretty brutal bulk business. So they usually just catch tons of fish and more or less like they're like suffocating on the boat for hours until they get dealt with and put into ice. And so we all hear the same stories. Your body fills with all these stress hormones and chemicals and well first of all it's like yeah unpleasant and then and then fills with all the >> then you become less yummy, >> right? Like way less yummy. So what happens is like Japan will e okay even California restaurants will not use California fish for the highest grade sushi because they're not killed in this method. And so like we we have California does most is tons of the >> fishing for the US or even up to Alaska and >> and America even American restaurants will not use that because it's it's it's yeah the quality is not supposed to be as good. And then we um so they created a robot that does this. I mean, you can do it by hand. There's like a lot of fish.

78:17 >> Yeah. >> Pretty dangerous. >> Doesn't scale. >> You have to like hold it in your hand and like stab it and like you're on a boat that's >> rolling [snorts] around. Yeah. And so they put it in this machine. It does computer vision. >> Um they like trained it on tons of fish. They put >> Always comes back to AI. >> Yeah. And it jabs at the brain that cuts its gills and it bleeds out. And then I um we have a video coming on this people can see for themselves. You can see like cuz you can go buy the company's called Shank Systems and they they actually end up selling their own fish. You could go to like Whole Foods and we did this. You just go to the store and you buy it and then you compare it to the other fish and it it's just it's like looks and tastes way fresher. It's interesting. So anyway, yeah, I saw lots of whales.

79:01 >> Got to do that and uh was very I love whales. >> You really do. We got so many videos of these whales. We saw like 50 or 60. I was in heaven. I kind of like had sort of checked out on the robot, >> right? [laughter] >> It's just humpback time. >> It is just a vacation for you and David. >> People were mocking me. Um, but I I enjoyed myself, so I don't care. >> Well, is that all your updates?

79:27 >> So, I got >> soccer, sorry, football. >> That's all I got. >> Aies. Um, my last update is that I realized that I was re-watching 30 Rock and I realized that I'm Liz Lemon and Ashley is Jack Donahe. It is It's actually abysmal. The more I watch I'm like that is that is exactly our relationship is you being like um are you are you porn or you [laughter] >> I'm like this as I get older I start getting like more and more conservative too.

79:55 >> Yeah, that's that too. >> They're always keeping those in check and I [laughter] was >> That's true. I was like, "Oh, man." Okay, that it sort of makes me want to I I do like the Jack character. This might backfire on you. It's making me like want to embrace it more. I think >> No, you are um just veering more Republican. I don't think I mean, okay, that doesn't really matter to the to the argument, which is just like Jack, you know, >> that was my favorite part about mythropic tweets was like people were so confused cuz they're like, "Uh, wait, he's not like a liberal." Uh the I I like to confuse people. I think I'm I'm like I I go back. I'm not >> You're contrarian, man. You You like to take the other side of the argument, which And you like to like poke fun in like a serious manner. Like you're not This is what I said during our Sun Cut Sun sponsorship and during our Samopod.

80:47 I was like, what you have to understand about my boss Ashley Vance is that he is a prankster, a jokester. He is he is not to be trusted. People think I'm like all super gung-ho serious on my tweets, but I'm I'm kind of >> No, you're you're sport fishing. >> No, you're being a a menace to society. That is that's your your like political spectrum is you just like being a menace. >> It is true. It is true. Uh yeah, I enjoyed that. I watching people who uh cuz sometimes I'll go on my my military and manufacturing things and my hatred for Gavin Newsome and people think I'm just like hardcore Trump lover but I'm not and then >> then I'm not keeping >> supportive and they're like what I don't understand. [laughter] >> Yeah. Did you know something I want to eventually sort of explore is uh so there's the re-industrialized conference in Detroit recently and I saw that there was protesters against it and these two worlds are just like I don't know how to square it because uh I grew up in a military family. Uh I am a California liberal and I want us to like bring back manufacturing and have like a robust defense against you know potential war you know China taking Taiwan. I want us to be prepared for that and then people are saying like these are you know weapons to kill you know people in the global south and that is also true. Um, but yeah, I remember talking to the Nordspace CEO who does who is like sort of in this world and he was like, I'm not like an Elsa Gundo taking Zens kind of guy. He's like, I grew up in Northern California. I just like manufacturing and that is sort of where I'm sitting.

82:28 >> That's usually where I said I I went to reindustrialize last year. I saw the photos of the protesters this year. It's the same group. They're like kind of um anti- um Israel I think or or Palestine and uh and they're kind of >> Palunteer is a big advertiser sponsor at the conference and seems to be the heart of their >> angst which is all well and good. I guess I mean sorry it's fine for them if that's how they want to express themselves. the conference itself really is about making >> I think that's what's like sort of hard to pair for me is that like yeah I am I'm very liberal but that conference it's like we I covered my actuator guys were there they were and I'm like it's hard for me to pair that sort of reaction to like the nerds inside >> I was laughing a bit cuz it's like Detroit's not exactly the most booming economy and some huge chunk of that conference is like people trying to make jobs that yeah I was like isn't it nice that you have time to uh protest this during the [laughter] day during the workday.

83:30 >> Oh boss, >> maybe you know not everybody has that luxury and would like a job. Yeah. >> Jesus. [laughter] Oh man. Great place to end, huh? >> I think I I tried to dodge the Israel Palestine. >> You did you did a great job. You did we both did a great job. >> Um okay, that is it for this week. If you're listening to this, I think we have a big sort of like send cut send thing coming. Oh, people should please subscribe to our stuff. Leave us some reviews. Go to the YouTube channel. We go to our YouTube podcast channel. We put up this tour of Redwood Materials with JB Strael, the Tesla co-founder.

84:11 It's really good. If you're at all into This will not be everybody's thing, but if you're into recycling, um, electric batteries, what happens to them? It's pretty cool. We like hung out with them all day and stitched together this is like you get to see how this very um complicated fascinating process works where they take an entire battery whether it's from your car or your toothbrush and they break it back down into lithium and cobalt and nickel and and it was I don't know I think it was well done.

84:40 >> Yeah, I think that is interesting. Like where do our electronics go to die? Except for like in my my drawers because I never throw anything away. So you guys should all watch that. No, I mean JB is legit because he I knew him, you know, I would say he's the most pure of heart on all of this. Like he wanted electric cars to be a thing cuz he actually was a greeny and he wanted to make that happen and he did and then he was inside of Tesla and he's like what is actually going to happen to these batteries as as all the greenies were buying them and they're starting to feel like oh >> is this all just for show? And so he actually like did something about it, you know, and and they recycle. So 70% of all the batteries in North America end up at Redwood Materials, which is like insane. Yeah. Um >> I just recycled my car batteries. So I hope they have fun with that.

85:31 >> Yeah. Like if you put anything in those bins or whatever, they they make their way to Redwood. >> Sick. I'll think about that every time I throw away a battery. >> There you go. All right, people. Thank you for listening and we will see you again soon. >> Thank you guys. The CoreMary podcast is hosted by me, Ashley Vance, andor Kylie Robinson, or both of us together. It is produced by me and David Nicholson. Our theme song is by James Mercer [music] and John Sortland, and the show is edited always by the John Sortland. Thank you so much to Brex and Send Cut Sendend for all your support. And thank you most of all to everybody for listening or watching.

86:16 We love you. Please leave us a like, a review, a subscribe, all those tremendous things. Thank you and we'll see you again.