FULL INTERVIEW: Uber Founder Travis Kalanick is Back with a New AI Startup

0:00 We have our next guest ready to join us live in the TV panel room. We have Travis Kalanick. He is the CEO of Cloud Kitchens. Welcome to the show, Travis. Great to meet you. Appreciate you coming on down to our studio, our humble abode. Great to meet you. >> We are truly an honor. >> I'm just down the street. >> Yeah. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. we we were actually we started this show in downtown LA at the Jonathan Club on Figueroa. And so I think we were even closer then.

0:28 >> there you go. >> how are things going? >> >> How's life? Whoa. Can we turn that down? We're getting some feedback. >> crazy. man, it's crazy. >> Yeah. What's crazy? >> The building doesn't stop, guys. >> Okay. >> I mean, I don't know how much you guys I mean, I've just I've been in hiding. >> Mhm. >> So, I've been I've been doing I've been doing this we I I run a company called City's up until today, let's just say. I was running a company called City Storage Systems.

1:01 >> Mhm. >> Okay? Which was basically about the future of food, a conglomerate operating in about 30 countries. That the whole idea was can you get a meal that's prepared and delivered to you so efficient that it starts to approach the cost of going to the grocery store. >> Yep. >> Cuz if you do, you do to the kitchen what Uber did to the car. So, I've been doing that since 2018. >> Yeah. >> And after just the intensity of Uber from in terms of like being in the public sphere, dealing with 100 headlines every day, deciding what you do or the actions you take based on what the New York Times is going to write, >> Yep.

1:42 >> I was like, I would like to just I would like to just I would like to just >> It is very tough. So, I was just like, I got to wake up every day and sort of just get to work and build. >> So, did you think >> So, I went under the radar. >> Did you think of this as like stealth mode? Is that the right term? >> We've been in stealth mode for 8 years.

1:59 >> Okay. And that's like till today, employees were not allowed to put the name of the company on their LinkedIn. We have thousands of employees. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> Okay, so today what happened was it's like for my company, and I just got out of an all hands and then came right here, is we went out of stealth. >> Yep. >> Now, City Storage Systems Systems is like a hilarious name. It was like >> It's like the most like let me choose the most generic >> like the most >> generic name that no one will ever notice your eyes.

2:28 >> of America. >> It was on purpose. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And it worked. >> It was like we had two choices when we when we launched. >> Yeah. >> we had what my sort of normal instinct was. Remember it was only 7 8 months after I left Uber when I started this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's let's just say the mission is infrastructure for better food. Okay, we have hardcore real estate assets. We buy the assets. We do construction. We sell restaurant tours on a delivery only location. I have a software stack that's like ARR ARR life. I've got a robotics company. I have a marketplace for for corporate lunch. Like there's a ton of stuff going on. Yeah.

3:08 >> Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Of course. Yeah. >> It's great. >> All right, I love it. >> Okay. So, I forgot what I was saying. So so >> just a very different business from Uber. It's Some people would leave that company and be like, "I'm going to start the exact same thing. I got the playbook." >> Well, and this is what This is what the Uber guys when I left were were like a little bit worried about. This is We're talking about 2017-18. They're paranoid.

3:31 So my my instinct was, "Okay, I left it 7 months later. I'm going to name my company Super." >> Mhm. >> He like You leave a company called Uber, you call it Super. I'm like >> Or call it Giga. >> I'm like You go from Uber to Super? You're like, "No, that that cannot be a thing." And so I did the opposite. Full underground, full stealth, put the toothpaste back in the tube, the genie back in the bottle, and build literally thousands of employees, and it's like a vacuum of information, full lockdown. It's been great building, but today we sort of came out and we renamed the company, we renamed what we do, we call it Atoms.

4:12 >> Atoms. >> Okay? But we started a new company at the same time. >> Mhm. >> And so let's just say like like any physical AI and robotics. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Action and movement through the physical world. Of course, on the food side, we already have all the things I just talked about. but but think of it as like I'm trying to get the mission like we're so I'm so riled up. Yeah, it's so fresh.

4:44 but but basically it's Yeah, so so that I'll I'll leave it at that. Let's get we can get rolling here. I'm like super caffeinated on 4 hours of sleep. So >> it. I love it. what how much harder in in many ways I think building in stealth for so long made a lot of things easier, right? You're not running your business based on headlines or thinking about what headlines are going to come. What are the what are the ways in which it made it harder? I imagine there's a lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of talent out there that wants to go work at the hot company that's in the news constantly. I'm sure you got the benefits of people maybe still opting out of that path and saying, "Hey, I just want to come in with you and build and I don't care about the hype and I don't want I don't need every recruiter hitting me up constantly because of whatever's on my LinkedIn." But what were the kind of key challenges and what are why why was now the right time to to come out and and start to get loud again?

5:40 >> So like first, I mean 100% so imagine every recruiter has to be outbound. Every salesperson has to be outbound. There's no inbound. >> Yeah. >> That's where it starts. You get good at your craft when that's what you have to do. Like I believe we have some of the best recruiters in the world because of it and one of the best recruiting systems. Now they leverage, okay, you're working with Travis, former, you know, founder of Uber, like there's leverage there. But then you you have a name like City Storage Systems and it's like >> >> So do you guys just have like these these like boxes sitting in parking lots? Like what is this? And that's sort of like the reason it's different now is because look, number one, lots of time since the Uber situ, you know, from having to live that life.

6:26 >> Yeah. >> but two is the world is different. Like in 2016, 2017, the world of, let's call it business press was just beginning to say business is politics. But people didn't know it. They're like if New York Times says something, everybody just treated as the gospel. Like it just must be true. >> Yeah. >> Ver and and if they say something bad, it must be true. I believe everything I read on the internet as an example. And so and by the way, it's this sounds crazy, but 2017, the media world was actually more negative than than it is today.

7:06 >> Yeah. >> And I think partly because of even shows like this. >> No, and I >> It's like let's bring some optimism to the party. Can't we get excited about what the future looks like and what's being built? >> Yeah, yeah. >> And that's the difference between today and then. And so when you go 95% of all press is negative, you're like why engage? >> Mhm. >> When the world is used to business being politics, let's just say, and if I thought of my favorite journal, sorry, my favorite politician and say what does the internet say that's bad about them and it's like an insane amount. What does the internet say that's neg, or sorry, untrue about them and it's a ton of stuff. And you go, "Well, that's how they're going to think about our company, too. That's how it's going to play."

7:46 >> Yeah. >> We're now we're desensitized to that stuff and now we can get back to optimism and building and not be so worried about, you know, 95% of the media just being negative. >> Sure. Yeah, I mean, this is pretty like go like whole trend of going direct, right? Like Lulu. I'm sure you meant it at some point. basically coached a generation of CEOs on, you know, you just can't If you If you want to have any control over how people perceive you, you need to you need to tell your >> to counteract with like a story, not like a statement. And the and the the the boilerplate like, you know, official statement just doesn't It doesn't entertain people as well as a full read a long read.

8:29 >> and it's also guys like Elon owns Twitter now. >> Yeah. >> It's X. >> Yeah. >> Right? Pre-post is like a massive difference in the mix of sort of ideas that can get out there. And again, you're allowed to be optimistic about things where maybe before everything had to be negative and and and sort of >> Yeah, so you you talked about the initial idea of naming the next company Super. That would have in many ways, I'm sure, turned into a basically a spite company which which Yeah, where where you're just in this case like kind of taking the high road was I'm just going to be quiet. I'm going to do the years and years and years and years of just like chewing glass, building up the infrastructure, getting to scale, getting to thousands of employees, getting to operating globally before you even poke your head up again, which I think is to any of your former critics, that's to me, that's taking the high road, basically.

9:27 >> Yeah, and what you get when you create a a culture around that is you have you then build a culture of builders. You build a culture of people that want to build and do not need to be famous when they do it. >> Yeah. >> Which basically means emotional intelligence. Now, there is a human nature. I want to be acknowledged for the things that I do. >> Yeah. >> I'd like the things I build to be seen and I I'd like somebody to know that I did it.

9:52 >> Mhm. >> And so this is when you cut against sort of the core of human nature and we sort of went all the way. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> And so we have a very high EQ culture. But like it is like you have to go the extra mile to recruit, the extra mile in sales, etc. Again, the world's different. LFG. >> Are the laws of physics of of the different businesses slightly different? I'm just thinking about your career arc with like Red Swooshes, enterprise communications, you're in a very particular industry. Uber's a consumer company. Now you're working on something that looks you're probably running like real estate developers. It's like a different industry, different community.

10:34 Has there been adjustments and what's different, what's the same? Like what can you just be like a good business operator and power through and what do you actually have to learn about the new industry? >> Look, I think probably the biggest one is when you go from consumer to cuz I have a I mean, when you go from consumer to B2B, the number one mega challenge that you must master is called LTV to CAC. >> Mhm.

11:01 >> Yes, you can make that argument on consumer, but when you have a sales funnel that starts with I'm going to talk to customers and I'm going I have to make LTV to CAC work versus like my LTV to CAC is the App Store. >> Mhm. >> It's a whole different ball game. And LTV to CAC with a sales machine, especially if you go small business, >> Yep. >> this is like life in hard mode. >> Yeah.

11:26 >> and talk to anybody who's who's crushed it on SMB, >> Yeah. >> like those guys are special individuals who made that happen because life in the SMB B2B world is no joke. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> So talk about motes. I feel like Uber's the greatest example of network effects and and runaway scale. What do What did motes look like at Red Swoosh? What were you thinking then? And then and then what does it look like now?

11:54 >> So like nobody knows what Red Swoosh is. >> Yeah, sorry. >> That's all good. So guys, I started a company in 2001. >> Yeah. >> That was let's call it BitTorrent meets Akamai. >> Yeah. >> Sold out. >> Before BitTorrent existed. >> Yeah. >> Okay, that's crazy. You click on a link and you can pull from other PCs that already have that file or that video stream, but it looks like the internet. That's basically what it was. the first 4 years no salary.

12:23 >> Wow. Yeah. >> Lived at mom's. >> Had some Had some famous investors. >> Famous investors. >> You know, like >> >> Mark Cuban was on the board of Red Swoosh. >> So before that Scour was Ovitz and and Ron Burkle. That was the company before that. >> oh, I I was I was confusing the two. >> Yeah, anyways. >> So there's a network effect there once you get the CDN up and running and >> That company wasn't meant to be and I willed it into being. And I sold it to Akamai for like I think it was like 19 million bucks. And probably to this day is still the happiest day of my life.

12:57 >> >> It was crazy. It was crazy. Like I cleared 3 million and I was like >> >> Praise the Lord. >> Okay, so then there were very obvious very obvious motes and and and scale economies. What like what does this look like with atoms? What does this look like in both you know, the food delivery kitchen model, real estate model, but then also where we're going in in autonomous robotics? >> Look, I if you look at where motes and really you're looking for network effects in different places, right? So, right now I have these facilities.

13:33 There's 30 restaurants in each of them. Picnic is like a perfect example of this, right? >> you order from your office, looks like Uber Eats or DoorDash, you get 100 options, except all the meals are coming out of my facilities. There's one courier that brings 100 orders at a time, >> Mhm. Yeah. >> but it's on demand and it's personalized for you, and we've got enough facilities near here that you can basically get anything. >> Mhm.

13:56 >> And so, who's going to who can play ball? >> Yeah. >> Like, you got to have the real estate. >> Mhm. >> That's a freaking moat. >> Yeah. >> You have the network effect now of like, what if I sell every floor on every tower, meaning every office floor is on this, and I sell >> in all of these floors. That means that one courier can bring 100 orders and by the while have five couriers going to a single office with 500 orders hitting every shelf, and you get notified when it arrives.

14:20 >> Yeah. >> How If you even took one floor, you would be like sad because your economics are going to be screwed because you don't have the efficiency or the operation sort of depth to make it work. So, there's network effects of a building. There's network effects on a on a facility with kitchens in it. >> Sure. >> There's but then there's the moat of like, we own real estate. >> Yeah. >> Okay? So, like if you want to >> to compete with us, go buy 100 million >> So, so very high, very >> of dollars of real estate in every major city in the world, and then we're going to go head-to-head.

14:56 >> Yeah. Talk about capital for >> other the other the I don't I don't know exactly what what bucket this falls in, but just just the moat of you would have to be absolutely insane to compete with >> were. People were. Like, th- this is how I remember the Uber versus Lyft battle was Uber was doing so well, and then and then all of a sudden a whole bunch of VCs were like, I want a piece of that, and I didn't get Uber, so I'm funding the >> But I'm saying in the context of of cloud kitchens, city storage, like even though people generally figured out what you were up to, right? You did have to share some little things along the way, or you buy this company, or or there's just >> You got to go You got to go to a website and say, "What are What What is an What is a delivery-only location? What the hell is that?"

15:41 >> Yeah. >> And so somebody had to know. But even then we're like, "We're going to We're going to say the cross streets of the facility, not the actual address." These are the little moves you do to be stealth, you know? >> In in, you know, when I look at the the new site and and how everything's positioned, a lot of it feels insulated from all the changes and progress that we're seeing in AI, and in many in many ways like accelerated because you got you'll get a lot of the ben- you know, the benefits of of AI progress and progress in robotics, but you're moving physical atoms around the world and in an era where, you know, you can generate any piece of software fairly quickly, this this feels like you've been kind of planning for this type of technology progress for >> Sounds great, dude. I love that. I love it. Yeah, dude. This is big This is the all in the plan.

16:35 >> >> Look, I think it's always been the plan a meal that's efficient, you know, so efficient it starts to approach the cost of going to the the grocery store. A meal that's prepared and delivered to you. That's real. You must do automated production of food. You must do automated delivery of the meal. I call that autonomous burritos, which is why I'm moving into this making this move on atoms, which is okay, we're still doing the food thing, but then we're adding mining and transport. Okay?

17:05 Mining being like more, you know, we like to say more efficient mines for Earth's industries. Or on transport, it's just robot a for robots. >> Okay. >> Okay? Because if you're going to do specialized robots, not humanoids, but specialized robots, they need to have wheels. >> Okay. >> Right? Like just say like if you saw the Beijing in Beijing they had the humanoid Olympics. >> Yeah. Things or whatever. >> The half marathon and you're watching a humanoid cruising and I'm like, "Dude, could you imagine if that thing had wheels? That'd be crazy." So like humanoids have their place, but there's there's a lot of room for specialized robots that that do things in an efficient sort of industrial scale kind of way, which is sort of where we play.

17:51 >> Mhm. I'm I I'm I I want to go back to capital wars, lessons from capital wars, when these play out because we're seeing this >> Yeah. >> Were you the OG because or or when this capital war kicked off, were you looking to lessons from the '90s? >> I mean, look, you can always say there was the guy before, okay? Like like you know, Rockefeller was the OG. And then before him was it like the Medicis? I don't know. But I was I was the goat for a period of time and now I'm a baby goat.

18:27 >> Yeah. >> >> And that's okay. >> Okay. >> and so then one day the baby goat will grow up again. >> Yeah. >> That's fine. It's going to be fine. >> >> I I I I just mean like the this idea of like you have a network effect, it's growing, and then you see a bunch of start throwing money at like the second place and there's this debate over catching up and like how do you what modes do you retreat to in that moment? Like I feel like that's the that that's the lesson from the Uber story that gets missed amid all the random drama is that there's actually like a very interesting financial war happening.

19:03 >> Yeah. >> And it played out very well for you and I'm wondering like what level of confidence you had, what did you do strategically to set yourself up for success? >> super >> interesting thing because I of course all the AI AI guys are playing that game right now. >> Right. >> Which is the ability to attract capital. Cap The capital wars becomes a strategic weapon. Capital becomes a strategic weapon, which means you must be the best at getting capital in order to win.

19:28 >> Mhm. >> And we realized that early on in the Uber days. Of course that's happening times 10 >> Yep. >> in the sort of let's call it the digital AI wars. >> Yeah. >> And look, the last round of funding that I did at Uber, we were like a 70 million or you know, I don't know it was like a 60 70 billion dollar pre. let's see that. Yeah, when that used to be a thing.

19:50 >> >> Now they're like, oh yeah, that's small stuff. But we had four rooms. This was our our how we'd fund raise. We had four rooms in our New York office >> Okay. >> booked for a week >> Mhm. >> with an hour and a half slot on each. >> Yeah. >> So like for 12 hours in a day. Four rooms going in parallel. >> I was in the Are you bouncing between them? >> No, I'm in the 250 million dollar and over club.

20:16 >> Okay. >> That's one room and it goes all There's all these other There's these other rooms to the fourth room is like 25 million dollar checks. >> Okay. >> Okay? There's a guy who works for a guy who works for a guy who works for me who's doing that room. >> Yeah. >> >> Okay? And then but we're over subscribed. So we started putting multiple investors in the same room. We're like, dude, we're just out of slots. Dude, like let's go.

20:40 >> That's remarkable. >> and but what it means is about the system. >> Mhm. >> It's about the system for sort of acquiring that capital at scale and superficially. And what it means is that storytelling that we did anybody in my team could tell that story, let's say on the strategic finance team, could tell that story and make it happen. And that was a big part. It was the story that's just like of course is like if I'm pitching it, people like, "Holy let's go."

21:13 >> Yeah. >> Then there is making it scalable so that there are 10 different people in a company that can pitch it at any given time. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> And that's when you take it all the way. And then there's like even auction dynamics of how you would do it. We would basically, once they said they were interested, we would then give them a piece of paper. It was like digital, but it was like, "You need to fill out this table."

21:35 >> Yeah. >> Which is this valuation, how much money you want to put in? This valuation, how much money? This much money? This this valuation, how much money? >> And then >> And then we would aggregate the demand. >> book. >> Yes, but like done way better because you don't respect to the bankers. >> >> But like >> Yeah. >> I was in charge of pricing. >> Sure. Sure. >> And so and then you're like, "Oh, we're trying to clear $5 billion. That takes us to this price." We would tell all these guys, "Hey, your price isn't big enough because >> Yep.

22:03 >> you don't make it under the curve." >> Yep. >> And then they would move their price and then that would change the curve and you would do it again. >> Makes sense. Were you Were you bringing new investors to private markets at that time? I feel like if I go back to Facebook, I think they IPO'd around 50 billion. You're doing a $70 billion raise. There's a lot of different It's a completely different shape of investor. What were those conversations like?

22:27 >> Look, I like I In some ways I have to give some credit. The This was It was an era where this was happening. >> Yeah. >> the Fidelity's of the world and other guys that are moving in. >> Yeah. >> I have to give credit to Drew at Dropbox. He was like the first guy in that game. >> Yeah. >> And you know, Drew and I'd meet up and we'd see, you know, I'd be like, "Slack's." I'm like, "Dude, >> >> What's up?"

22:55 >> You're like, "This is my our little safe space." >> Chesky at Airbnb. Like that was the crew that was doing it in the 2010s. >> Yeah. >> And sort of pushing the boundaries of what it meant to be like people didn't even know what private equity pri- What is a private What is private equity? >> Yeah. >> Now we're just like, "Yeah, private equity." >> Yeah. >> That's VC. It's the same thing. And but back then private equity is like, "I do leverage buyouts."

23:19 >> Yeah. >> And so you're bringing private equity, mutual funds, those guys into the game in a way that didn't exist before. Now it's just old hat. >> Have you have you coached any of the AI founders? >> going to ask you that. >> Exactly. Culturally, like that crew that you just described, I we most of them have been on the show. It feels very different aesthetically than what we're dealing with today. >> >> Yeah, but I'm sure Chesky's pumping up Sam.

23:43 >> I love I love these guys. I love them all. >> That's so interesting. Look, the times when I get hit up >> Yeah. >> are usually when the is about to hit the fan. >> what I'm saying? You're saying it's >> Or it's actually hitting the fan. They're like, "Dude, somebody needs to call Travis immediately. He'll know what to do." >> >> So I use So my >> Travis is now casting a They're casting a movie about me.

24:09 >> >> My phone's like, "What are the crazy, wild, wackiest things going down or like here?" Because that's when I usually get the call. And I'm so underground. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, that's what happens. But like I should You know, I should give a You know, I know these guys. I should give them a call and be like, "Dude, we should >> Let's cook. >> Let's let's cook. >> Yeah, let's cook. >> >> I still think we probably did things better than anybody. That some of those things probably are still better than anybody even today. But obviously the check size much bigger.

24:39 >> Is that approach like systematizing fund rai- fundraising, productizing it? Do you apply that across the entire Is that like everything that you do that is important, you're you're creating like a ground-up kind of >> Yes. >> for it? >> Yes. >> Where else do you >> for instance, I mean this will be, you know, this is just crazy but like how about when you do construction? >> Mhm. >> Do you know how effed up construction is? I tell my guys that in the in the real estate department, I'm like your entire department is the anti-fraud department.

25:14 >> Oh, yeah. >> These guys just are incentivized to just run up the bill. >> how do you do epic high-quality construction at an insanely efficient price? There's a way. >> Mhm. >> Not going to tell you. >> to tell you. >> But there's a way. >> Do you have Do you have any like white pills or ideas that potentially AI speeds up the rate of building broadly? Like solving the housing crisis through faster permitting, stuff like that.

25:41 >> This is So, one of the things is that and I think people are starting to come out of this now, this whole like the jobs are gone. Like I know still people still say that, but there's another side to this story. And like I'll just make this cuz I'm the guy who's guy, I'm like let's just talk about plumbers. >> Mhm. >> Okay? Let's say the entire world, everything in our world was automated except for plumbers.

26:04 >> Okay. >> Okay? You had machines making buildings. You would basically have like a thousand buildings a day. >> Yeah. >> A thousand buildings being built at a single time in Los Angeles alone. Just machines doing. >> Yeah. >> Except plumbers. >> Okay. >> How valuable would those plumbers be? >> Extremely valuable. >> Okay, those guys would each and every plumber would be like LeBron. >> Yeah. >> Why? Why? Because because >> because plumbing is the long pole in the tent to progress.

26:33 >> Sure. >> That you can't get those thousand buildings unless you have a plumber. And by the way, you got so much efficiency everywhere else that you need millions of plumbers. >> Yeah. >> And then the plumbing is like >> Yeah. >> what's up? And so once you once you realize that, then you're like, "Until we get super AGI, >> Yeah. >> humans are valuable. >> Mhm. >> And they are going to become more and more valuable because they will be the long pole in the tent to progress. And that progress is going to accelerate and get faster and you know, more robust except if you're a plumber, >> Mhm.

27:13 >> you're crushing. >> Mhm. >> And so until we get to humans are replaced like >> fully >> fully >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And by the way, I have I think we have solutions for that. I think Elon's got that at Neuralink. It's going to be all good. Okay, and then people are like, "Oh god." >> >> But But until we get there, we're going to I believe we're going to be super fine. That's my white pill.

27:36 >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it does if you have plumbers that are getting paid like LeBron, it obviously increases that, you know, the prize pool of automating. but again, there's like these kind of windows >> But there's going to be a bunch of things like plumbing. And it's not just plumbing. It's going to be all over the place. And even when it comes to software. So like for instance, look at like autonomous cars. They like like Waymo has people that oversee the rides.

28:02 >> Yeah. >> Okay? And it starts with like, "Okay, five five rides for every person." Then it goes to 20. Then it goes to 100. But like if we get to this place where autonomous cars are everywhere, okay? And let's just say it's one in a thousand. >> Mhm. >> And like nobody owns cars. It's just ride sharing everywhere. I mean, some people own cars, but it'd be the top of the the top of the pyramid, let's say.

28:23 Okay, so what do we replace billions of cars with ride sharing? >> Yeah. >> If it was a thousand to one, you still probably have, I don't know, 20 million jobs? >> Yep. >> 50 million jobs? I'm just riffing on just the concept of this. You will see this everywhere. Is that until humans are fully replaced, we become the long pole in the tent to progress. And that progress by the way is to serve us. >> Yeah.

28:49 >> Yeah. >> Robots yet don't yet have bank accounts. So that plumber gets paid. >> Yeah. >> Anyways, you get the idea. >> you mentioned mining. >> Yeah. >> Have you been to a mine recently? You visited a mine? Like what what's going on in mining? What how I mean I imagine that mines are fairly automated already. Like there's machinery and >> of employees at >> Okay. >> at a given mine. >> And it's And that's work that humans have done >> many resources that >> Children children yearn for the mines of Minecraft, but it's not the best not the best job.

29:21 >> Well, like maybe that's actually how it gets you maybe that's where it goes. Ender's Game situation. >> Yeah, Ender's Game situation. >> >> Look, the It's interesting. You go a lot of times they're like, oh Oh, well, is labor really the issue in my you know, is that really a thing? But that's the what it really comes down to is productivity. >> Okay. >> Right? So if if a mine is automated >> Mhm. >> then it can run all hours of the day and night. It doesn't have >> Yeah.

29:52 >> It doesn't have off hours. >> Yeah. >> the way machines queue up doing that really efficiently like computer science style. I call it digitizing the physical world. >> Yeah. >> You can make that mine substantially more productive. What is the value of a more productive mine? And by the way, let's say let's get to the real sort of the the outcome here. >> Yeah. >> Is does the world as we enter this sort of new golden age that's about to come?

30:20 >> Yeah. >> Do we need more minerals? Do we need more materials? Look around us, guys. >> Absolutely. It's like huge huge huge studio >> or walk outside. Everything you see is grown or mined. >> Yep. >> Manufactured and moved. >> Yeah. >> So if you're not in the mining business like you're like let's just say that my like I shouldn't say that but like it's it's a very critical part of the situation. I can't wait till we're putting some machines on SpaceX's rockets to go mine an asteroid or a planet or whatever. In the meantime, lots of mines on planet Earth.

31:00 Lots of work to do. >> do you want to operate at? Do you want to go and find land and mine it? Because that's sort of on the table if I look at what you're doing in food. You you you own real estate. Or do you want to sell tools to mining companies that already have explored and they understand and they're running up and running. How do you think? >> I'm not I'm not buying land for mines anytime that's just not anytime soon. But >> In the next 3 months?

31:27 >> Yeah. >> >> He's like >> Not in any time soon. >> 120 days out. I >> >> I just think it's super fascinating. Again, it's just like like I'm an atoms guy. I'm like all about digitization of the physical world. And you know, I have this framework for it which is like CPU manipulates bits, storage stores bits, network moves bits from point A to point B. I was a computer engineer at UCLA. I didn't graduate but it but I I loved it.

31:59 Those are the three core computing resources that you're told about on day one. But if you're treating atoms like bits, digitizing the physical world, CPU manipulates bits, what manipulates atoms? Manufacturing. Storage stores bits, what stores atoms? Real estate. Network moves bits from point A to point B, what moves atoms? Transport logistics. I didn't know it then or I didn't think about that way exactly but at Uber we were building network for the physical world also known as digitized transportation.

32:30 City storage systems then make sense. Storage for the physical world. That's real estate. We're building atoms based computers with a real estate foundation. Storage. >> Yeah. >> Right? But, now leveling up and saying, "Okay, we have a food computer. What about a mining computer? And what about a wheel-based platform to serve industry generally?" >> Yeah. If I look at the last two decades of your career, you're uniquely good at managing very geographically spread out workforces.

33:05 >> Mhm. >> What is the secret? I I I can I could never get behind the remote work thing. Everyone here works in one studio, but >> Respect. I'm all about it. Yeah. >> But, you you've had to do it basically because you had to have a presence in New York, you had to have a presence in LA, and you can't be in 10 places at once. >> There's a difference There's a difference between remote work where somebody works at home and they're like in boxers and then a a suit, okay?

33:30 Versus we have an office in every major city in the world. >> Yes. >> And whatever city you're in, you're going to that office every day, 5 days a week. And sometimes six or seven. >> Mhm. >> And that's it. >> But, satellite offices still feel like a headache. How how did you solve it because you can only be in one place? >> Yeah, I guess I just I cracked the code so thoroughly in Uber times before I think maybe even before anybody else. It almost feels like normal.

33:58 >> Yeah. >> But, like I basically have figured out sort of the the management and leadership structures where you The real The real thing is about empowerment. >> Okay. >> Is you must be able to empower teams, but I It's like I like to say the fewest number of rules while staying out of chaos. >> Sure. >> And once you have those systems in place, you know, your imagination is only constrained by management capacity. >> Yeah.

34:27 >> So, once you figure out the management piece, your imagination can go pretty damn far. >> And so it's just figuring out the management part of this is the thing. >> Talk about empowering young people. We've had a ton of founders on the show who have the origin story of like, "Yeah, I was the GM of Miami or he he sent me to Atlanta and I was me in a hotel room with a bunch of energy drinks and we had to open up this market so we had to do a stunt and hire some people and it just felt like you know startup within a startup is a bad phrase that gets sort of misused but why why were you you know you weren't this wasn't your first company with Uber. Why were you so heavy on leaning on young people empowering them pushing them?

35:12 >> It wasn't on purpose. It was just the right answer. >> Okay. Why? >> Yeah, I mean once you have a city team and you're like, "Okay, I need to find people that can run this." Like old people aren't the answer. Like I need fresh I didn't think of it as like I got to get youthful people or not. I'm just like I need good talent that can go do X and who has no judgment on what it is we got to get done and it it was just like water flows downhill.

35:44 So what do you look it was a you know like the the first driver ops guy that we brought in in San Francisco in 2010 we basically took 200 cards and put names on them and we said alphabetize them. Click. And we just would measure how much time it took to alphabetize. We would give them like crazy analytics tests and then we're like, "Okay, this is our guy." You know what I mean? >> Free free AI.

36:14 >> If you're on the marketing manager if you're on the marketing manager but even today you'd still want that guy. Even today. So like you can't use AI. Now alphabetize in the most efficient way. Now if you're if you know computer science, sorting is like a big freaking deal. Sorting efficiently and being able to do that in your brain, not in software, is a thing. That's what ops people do. >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. >> So, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question other than problem-solving, whether you're young or old, executive or junior, who can solve problems is number one.

36:52 When you interview, simulate what it's like working together so that day one is really like week two. >> Mhm. >> And you're already pumped because you saw them in action. >> Yeah. >> How are you with Atoms, how are you thinking about recruiting and how are you going to change your approach to building the company? You've been kind of holed up in LA. This is your kind of hideout. >> Yeah, totally. >> But I imagine like do you do you push into back into SF, go back to being the king?

37:19 >> Well, here. So, first, let's just be clear. On December 18th, I moved to Texas. >> Sure. >> You know. >> Great. >> I don't know what's so specific about December 18th, but >> Who knows? >> let's just say it's prior to January. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> so, I'm a primary resident of Texas, but the the action for a lot of this Atoms type technology I'm talking about, of course, like the Bay is a real thing. My head of it the advanced technology group at Uber is running my robotics division at Atoms. It's called Lab 37.

37:52 >> in Pittsburgh. No, no, that's Eric Meyhofer. >> Okay, Eric Meyhofer. >> that's robotics on the food side. yeah, Anthony Levandowski was running Pronto. I was the I was the largest investor in Pronto, and then we just were basically right in the final like we're checking off the list, maybe closing today or tomorrow on that deal. So. >> Amazing. Let's talk about that deal. Yeah. Give us give us Yeah, give us like kind of background on on Pronto and then how it fits into the to the empire.

38:23 >> Well, look, I I I sort of broke out how mining fits. Right, so we got that. Look, I've been I'm the largest investor in Pronto. and it's super inspiring work. Like like go to a mine. Right? Check out how these things work and let your mind imagine what that might look like when you bring automation to it and how much more productive it is and what that means for industry when all mines are producing more. Where does that go?

38:57 and in some ways you could say low-hanging fruit on the autonomy problem because yes, there are different problems off-road, but they ain't like they're way more controlled than what's going on on-road. Okay? But then you get into the physical action. Like cars on the road, the waymo's on the road, you know, they're moving. But they're not acting on atoms. Right? So when you think about excavation and you think about crush like when you get the material and then you move it then you are basically crushing the material and then you process it, you think about all of the automation through that stack, it's fantastic.

39:36 And it's like it's hard, right? Like I somebody asked me like we have a bunch of roboticists that make some of our food machines and I somebody came like, "Hey, like is AI going to help us design food machines?" We're like, "Dude, let me show you." Like this thing has like an insane number of parts and let me show you just the design of a single part. >> Yeah. >> Like the like the the the that that AI can't even do freaking math, you know what I mean? It's like this is not We're not there yet. Now, could it get there? Yeah, but then you're really an AGI. If you look at how much harder it is the physical world, how much harder it is AI in the physical world versus in the digital world. And I'm not debating it anyway. I'm just saying it's like a maybe it's let's call it a different problem set.

40:25 >> Yeah, you're we're just far away from one shotting. There's way less training data. >> Yeah, the it's like one shotting on software do you have one shotting on designing a machine or a robot? Woo, we're just not there yet. >> Yeah, not there yet. >> But that makes it more fun. That's the point is like do the hard things. If you are in the Adam's world, you have decided I like hard things. I like pain more than anybody else.

40:48 >> Yeah. >> This is kind of what you got to be about. >> Chewing on glass. >> I love it. so I can see how AVs at Adam's fit into mining. What other and just heavy industry broadly, what other kind of categories of of AVs are are exciting? How do you see the space evolving? >> Yeah, look I anything I mean we the mission is wheel base for robots. >> Yeah. >> So then you're just like, okay, what moves?

41:16 >> Yeah. >> Right? And you go, okay, where you have to find the businesses that make sense, of course. So we're like, okay, mining is a no-brainer. And what about my >> how do you how do you think about sizing for wheel base for robots that can scale up and down like crazy? >> like I tell my team like, dude, there's like a ton of silver medals here. And there's actually a few other gold medals just in the category. so let's just go with delivery robots, like food delivery, which of course is near and dear to my heart.

41:46 >> You make a lot of money. >> Your 20 Yeah, your 30 your $15 bowl became 30 bucks. >> Yeah. >> Okay? 2% >> this is like I would put it up there as like one of the number one annoyances of the average American regardless of where they are in society. It's like food is just the cost of food delivery. Everybody wants food fast, cheap, hot, etc. >> Yeah. >> And there's all this data that just came out this week that just shows like it doesn't matter even how much money you're making, you're spending a lot on this category.

42:24 >> Isn't it interesting? Right? Remember I talked about the plumbers? But like you could take whole categories become the long pole in the tent. >> Mhm. >> Food. Boring. To a lot of people boring is that. For me, interesting. >> >> Let's go. But I look, I did taxes. I did taxes. >> Yeah. >> When they're like people looking at me funny. >> It was a weird idea. >> Okay, they are looking at me super funny. So Jason Calacanis, the most famous investor in Uber of all time.

42:56 >> More famous than you in some ways. >> >> Whenever I meet with him I'm like, "Dude, I'm so honored to be meeting one of our early investors." But he there was like a angel group that I pitched to. >> There were like 30, 40 people in the room. I think it was like three or four that invested. Okay? The 10 grand check became like 100 million bucks. It was crazy. >> Wow. >> But the boring places are the places.

43:21 >> Yeah. >> You know? >> Less competitive. >> But also just weird and hard. >> Yeah, there's a reason why it's that way. >> The graveyard is stacked of tech guys that thought they could crack food. Which is why which is again like >> Yeah, go back to what you were saying. >> and you can go you can go compete in this category, but you have to actually be insane and you have to have >> Yeah.

43:46 >> And and then you have to attack it all at all these levels and >> and my So my head of the robotics division >> Yeah. >> We're like, "Yeah, let's do this. Get the band back together. Let's go." Right? This is Eric Myhofer. >> Yeah. >> And And and he's like, "Okay, we can make a food robot." I'm like, "I got one There's one requirement though. There I got one with hanging chatter, one string attached. He's like, "What?" I'm like, "You're going to have to build a restaurant that the robot serves."

44:16 So, my roboticist team in Pittsburgh made a restaurant that is the restaurant that our first robot went into because we had to make sure that we understood how a restaurant worked. We had to make sure that this wasn't just a machine that made food, but a machine that makes food in the ecosystem of machines called a restaurant. And people don't understand, but a restaurant is a manufacturing facility. In fact, if you look at like the labor statistics, etc., restaurants fits under manufacturing.

44:48 For obvious reasons. It just hasn't changed in 50 years. >> Anyways, back to >> Sorry, I'm I'm all over the place. >> No, I love it. I love it. Firing on all cylinders. but but so so again, are do you want to move people with AVs? Do you are you do you care more about commercial? >> Look, the the industrial thing is sort of like probably our our main jam, but the bottom line is once you once you crack once you crack movement in the physical world, there's lots of people who want access to that.

45:22 And in fact, you need partners because, you know, you're going to be putting billions to billions of dollars to work to make it happen. So, there's going to be lots of partners across different categories that are going to probably want some of that, and I have no issues with that. We're not like a you know, this is ours in this thing. It's more like, "Hey, there there may be ways to work with others. We're happy to do it." Yeah. We've got to pick our our spots, but you get the idea.

45:47 >> What about manufacturing broadly? You're doing it in food. Are there other categories that are interesting, or are you happy to be kind of the transport rails? >> Look, I think once you are in physical AI, you should basically understand that manufacturing is part of your tech stack. Like it just is. And by the way, energy is part of your tech stack. Land development, real estate is part of your tech stack. That's just what it's going to be.

46:17 People don't think about it like that, but it's true. Of course, there you know, I I've you know, Tesla just crushes. If you look at this list of things, you're just like >> Yeah. >> They got it all. >> >> So good. but there's just so much to do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? So it's >> Is that is that the >> We can see all the things We can see all the things Tesla's doing. That's cool.

46:37 I'm like >> There's a million other things. >> still help you mine. >> Yeah. >> I I can still I can still get some food to to some peeps. You know what I mean? So you get the idea. >> Is that is that is that really when you're pitching investors around atoms in this new vision, is it basically like there's a lot of jobs to do in the world, we're going to do it with physical AI, and you're basically betting on applying my general ethos to all these categories over time?

47:05 >> No, you got you got to be able to pick your spots. If you are too broad, people are like, dude, what's wrong with you? Now, you know, I think every entrepreneur always gets that. Like, you know, I I I joke around like, in the '90s, I get, dude, I'm an old guy. What are you going to do? >> >> In the '90s, it's like, dude, Microsoft's going to kill you. Like, why do you think? Then in the 2000s, it was like, why isn't Google going to do this?

47:29 In the 2010s, it's like, dude, that looks like Uber's thing. >> Yep. >> And the you know, now it's like if you're talking about physical AI, it's like that's Tesla. That is They are the They are the incumbent. They are And not just the incumbent, they're also just doing great awesome stuff. >> But find your spot. >> Yeah. >> Know yourself, know what you're good at, be self-aware, and find the thing that is your business soulmate, for sure.

47:52 But also know that you're in an ecosystem and you need to find your spot. >> Mhm. What was your experience like in dot com and the the financial crisis broadly in 2008? >> okay, so basically I sold I sold my peer-to-peer CDN >> Yeah. >> Akamai meets BitTorrent in 2007 to Akamai. >> Okay. >> So I was earning out >> Yeah. >> when that happened and I was I just started I think I didn't last very long in that earn out.

48:22 >> Sure. >> so I was the CXO. I was like an advisor and a CXO. >> Okay. >> Little known fact, I was a I was blogging. >> Okay. >> I was like a tech influencer blogger. >> There we go. >> There is a a blog still out there called Swooshing. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Crazy amazing ridiculous content. Okay. >> We're we're we're going to dedicate an hour >> in the click I was in the click economy, guys. I was in it. Okay. But so I was I was a advisor and CXO for like five different companies at a time and so I'd help them on their deals or I would be their CTO >> Yeah.

49:00 >> or I would you know, help them sell or product or whatever, but I could always just put the phone down and forget. >> So you're somewhat insulated from like the mortgage crash. Like >> Yeah, I mean my thing was I was trying to figure out I was getting a bunch of my friends together and saying, "Okay, do you have a mortgage with Bank of America? I do too. Let's pool our thing. I'm going to go to Bank of America and say, 'I will buy these mortgages off for 40 cents on the dollar.'"

49:26 And cuz you're selling them on the market for 10 cents. >> Interesting. >> Could be fun and then they're like >> Get out of here. >> >> That's the crazy >> You're not a hedge fund. that's wild. What about dot com? >> you're talking about the 90s? >> Yeah, the 90s like late 90s like I mean you're still you're at that point you're like sort of starting your career, right? But it it's an interesting place to start a career in tech. Like a lot of people watched that and said that that >> So look, that was a peer We did peer-to-peer file sharing at a company called Scour. Okay? So, some people did Napster, some went to like you know, all the ones that came after, BitTorrent, all the way to like what was the one that Zenstrom did Kazaa or some of these others, right? We were the OG file sharing. Okay?

50:15 Michael Ovitz was on the board, Ron Burkle was on the board, LA. Okay? Doing a tech Doing tech in LA was like being a finance guy in Fresno. They're like, "Don't know what the hell is going on." They're like, "Who are you?" and you're a little bit sheltered from it in LA. Every time you went to the the Silicon Silicon Valley, it was like wild and crazy and like every bar was like packed like after-hours like happy hour thing.

50:45 Like things were bubbling. And the crazy part is not just what happened during the the run-up. It was post. I was raising money on this peer-to-peer CDN that I didn't have I didn't pay myself a salary for for 4 years. I was raising money in two in late 2001 for a networking software company. Are you freaking kidding me? And so, I remember going to one of these going to a bar to meet up with a VC.

51:12 And this is like 2002. And it's empty. Like this thing that would be mega packed just 2 years earlier. I mean, we're talking Dust Bowl tumbleweeds. Empty. And this VC, I wish I remember who it was cuz it'd be amazing. was like "Yeah, Travis, dude, I think I think it's all done." >> It's over. >> >> He told you it's over. >> I'm like I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "All the software that could be invented has been invented."

51:41 >> Wow. >> We're done. And he meant it. He meant it. He was like, "It's been real, dude. Let's have a whiskey. Let's go. >> We're done. That's incredible. >> you have you processed the last 2 years when people are able to raise an amount of money that took you four different rooms and this you know entire you know process and they can just raise it literally without it without a deck often. they can just pull pull it together.

52:09 >> Look, it's all good. Like I don't I I just have because you know when you build a company the way I built it which is like my current one where you're literally under the radar, it means that you are powered by you have an internal fulfillment. You're not like caring what others think. You you get internally fulfilled with building. >> Yeah. >> And I don't look at somebody and go, "Oh dude, that's I had it so much harder uphill both ways to school." Whatever. You know, I don't think like that.

52:42 It's it's it's more about the excellence of the process. >> Yeah. >> So I'm like, "Well, how do you raise money?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, I just throw a deck to the guy." I'm like, "Okay, well then that's not a thing." >> Yeah. >> What is a thing is going all the way until it hurts. If you're doing something and it's easy, it's not valuable. And I'll I'll explain like it let's just think of like a like a marathoner.

53:04 >> Yeah. >> World-class marathoner. On mile 21, is that dude smiling? No, he's not smiling. By the way, if he is smiling, you know what's about to happen? He's about to get his ass whooped. >> >> Okay? >> It's over. >> Because why? Because somebody else who's down for the pain will go harder and further and pass him. >> Yeah. >> And so if you're getting money easy, I'm like, "Why didn't you go harder?" You could have done it better and more.

53:31 >> Mhm. >> Now you don't do things hard just cuz. Maybe it's like it just doesn't matter, dude. Like I got to go do something else that's hard. But the key is like if money matters, which I think we would say it does, especially in certain categories, you need to be the best in the world at it. And it's not enough to say it was easy. If anybody comes to me and says a strategic thing was easy, I'm like, you messed up. You could have been way better and gone way further, more competitive advantage, more differentiation, get it together.

54:04 >> Give me the update on the new >> Robbins right now. >> it. I love it. No, I think people I think people need to hear this. >> They do. >> And and yeah, the challenge is like when when if raising money is super easy and then you actually start building and you're like, whoa, actually money doesn't money makes this possible, but it doesn't make the work easy. >> Yeah. >> And it is funny that some of the greatest fundraisers, they the critique is always like, oh well, they are raising too much money. You look at Elon, Sam, all these crazy deals and people are like, well, like, okay, we you it's good nice that you're good, but like, are you too good? And it's something >> Look, here's the thing.

54:36 you know, back in the day, 2010's reference, like there was a problem with getting massa money. >> Yeah. >> There was a problem with that. >> Yeah. >> Because it was easy money. >> Sure. >> And it was too loose. >> Yeah. >> And so people would get loose with the culture of the investor that they were getting the money from. >> Sure. >> And so you had to be careful. So if somebody got massa money, I'd be like, dude, you got a you got to grind. It was It was maybe a little too easy. And you still And still to this day. So So there's nothing wrong with money as a as a sort of a competitive advantage or a strategic weapon. It's okay. Like that's part of business. It's necessary. But treat it with respect.

55:27 >> Last question about Texas for the Californians that are thinking about making a trip out there. Austin, Dallas, Houston, what do you recommend? >> Well, look, I'm Austin. Now, I own a place in Austin. I've owned it for 5 years. I'm a avid I would say almost professional water skier. >> That's nice. >> slalom skiing I'll send a video. Put it up. >> >> It's sick. We haven't started. so, I've owned a place there for 5 years.

55:59 Right on the lake, Lake Austin. 20 minutes from the city. >> There you go. Okay. >> Lake life. Hell, yeah. Go for it. >> Okay. >> I get a little bit FOMO on like these people going to Florida. I'm like, "Dude!" so much Florida action. Like, come on, homies. Like >> >> I know it's it's been a it's been a bloodbath for It's just every every single guy is going to Florida. >> But, like yeah, like every weekend this year I've had this year's in Texas.

56:25 >> Yep. >> >> Do you ever take calls while you're water skiing? Like, AirPods? >> I wish, dude. I should. >> It'd be good. >> I'd love it. Don't get me excited. Well, well, I went to Saronic, which does the boats, the autonomous boats. And I'm like, >> Build me a water skiing boat. >> Water skiing boat. Ooh, okay. >> I just want to water ski. And like And I'm like, "Dude, this is so funny." I'm like, >> Autonomous water skiing.

56:49 >> Dude, I would >> pretty viral. >> who should who should come You're you're poking your head up. Who should come work for you? >> Yeah. >> 60 seconds. Who do you want? Not not any individual like one individual person, but like the >> I have a message for this one guy who didn't take my offer. Look, I think the thing is is like we're just getting the best in This is so cliché and like whatever, banal, but You look, we are in the physical AI space. So, you it's a mix of sort of let's call it sensors, compute, the software that sits on top of those things.

57:34 I mean, it's just it's just going to be great engineers. And then you go through what I would call the physical AI stack, and you would you know, but >> It's a long project. It's someone for who wants a career. >> It's like infrastructure software guys cuz you got to have epic AI on the back end and the way to use that sort of has to be epic. You have to have physical AI model people >> Mhm.

57:55 >> who are sort of translating foundational models into the physical world, and and and there's some core research and some just like I know all the white papers, and we're just going to we're we're building and going end to end or some hybrid version of that. >> Mhm. >> you have just normal software cuz you got applications that sit on top that then of course customers see in some fashion or another, actuation and manipulation on the mechanical and sort of robotic side of things, and mechanical engineers that build machines.

58:28 >> Wow. >> I you know, and then of course remember I've got construction, real estate, like I could go on. >> That's amazing. >> It's lots of cool stuff. Go to the website. There's lots of stuff there. >> folks. Go to the website. >> adams.co. And by the way, adams.co/vision, I just threw down. >> Okay. We'll read it. >> Check it out. >> Well, thank you. >> It's amazing. >> This was awesome.