The $7 Billion Brand Where the Janitor Owned Stock | Daniel Lubetzky on Invested

0:00 You sold kind and they went on Shark Tank. Why? How many investments have you made? >> Through Shark Tank? >> Yeah. >> Probably 15 20. >> Has anyone made money? >> There's one investment I'm telling you, Michael. I think this might be a multi-billion dollar company. >> Okay. So, tell us. >> The amount of things that I did wrong is so much greater than the amount of things that I did right. We grew a company from basically nothing to a multi-billion dollar company with no needed investment. I don't want to start getting so emotional out the gate.

0:43 Welcome back for another episode of Invested. This is not Shark Tank, it's Invested. And I'm here with Daniel Leetszky. How are you, Daniel? >> I'm so pleased to be with you. Most of you probably know Daniel from Shark Tank, but he actually also invented the Kind Bar. Now, the Kind Bar is very dear to my heart. You know why? >> Because it matches your shirt. >> That too, I guess. I remember walking around San Francisco after they shut down the kosher restaurant in San Francisco starving. And I walked into what you call the New York bodega there. I guess it's just a convenience store. I said, "What can I have? It's got a little bit of protein in it at least. It'll fill me up." And I took three Kind bars. The first time I had a Kind bar was the same.

1:22 >> The kosher market, the gluten-free celiac market, they were the most loyal to us and we were loyal back. So, every product we made, we made sure that we could keep our promise to our consumers. You know, like what's the most important thing in a brand is that you be consistent. The brand is a promise and a great brand is a promise well kept. So, you have to just always be consistent and know who your audience is and just deliver what you promised.

1:47 >> I want to start with why you called it kind bars. Why'd you call it Kimer? >> Interesting. The year that we founded kind was one of the hardest years of my life. My dad had just passed away. He was like my hero. He was a survivor of the Holocaust. And we were first of all, we almost didn't launch the company because I was like struggling with my prior business. And as we were trying to decide whether or not to go forward, we were looking to come up with a brand.

2:18 The value proposition we already knew. We wanted something that was going to be healthy, tasty, and socially responsible. And we wanted to have find a human adjective that would describe those three anchors. And we started think of my father, my team member Sasha at the time, and I were brainstorming that some of the other names were the funniest, stupid, stupidest names you could imagine. It's so funny. I need to find that piece of paper. We had like 70, 80 ideas.

2:46 >> Give me some of them. It was like really obvious stuff like healthy nutty nutty healthy not soious not so special naughty like all sorts of variations of nuts and fruits. And then I think it was Sasha's idea and she and I were riffing and we wanted to honor my father. He was very front of mind and we named it kind after my dad. And the reason we named that kind is not just because it's kind to your body, to your taste buds, and to your word, to your world. And so it fits with that value proposition, but also my father, in spite of what he went through in the Holocaust, he was just always seeing the world as a place where he could bring in some love, some kindness, some smiles. He made anybody that he met smile. And if the flight attendant or the waiter was having a bad day, it start throwing one joke after another after another. And do you know the campaign progressive can stop you from becoming your parent, but it can save you 15% of insurance. Like my kids joke that I became my father and now they're becoming us. But like a mess, my mission when I see somebody having a bad day is to try to put a laugh in in to make them smile. And that was from my father that he always saw his role after surviving the Holocaust to bring light and kindness.

4:10 >> What was your father's name? >> Roman. >> Roman. Tell just tell us about him because it seems to be very present. >> He very rare person. You and I are fathers. You two hate me to four. my dad also had four kids my mom and dad and what was special about him is he achieved so much in his life from nothing and he had almost no ego. It was very hard like I think ego can be a positive force if you know how to manage it. Ego is not your amigo if you let it become a dark force that just wanting it for the wrong ways. But it can also be a force of giving you a sense of desire to prove yourself to build like to build something constructive. My dad for some reason the way I saw him I don't remember him like when I'm having lunch with my kids and they're talking to each other sometimes I get very frustrated that I'm not part of the conversation like I want to be a protagonist. Never had that. He was always he put the spotlight on us. We were the protagonist. He was a great coach. Like anytime I went to him with and believe it or not, Michael, every one of my siblings can tell you, friends of ours would go to my dad to ask him for advice. Like the community would come to him to ask him for advice.

5:31 And the way he coached people was like a coach. He would listen. He would ask you questions and then you'd come up with the answers yourself. For me, it's very hard to do. So like I'm very good at telling you what to do. I'm much better. I'm I'm working on being a better listener and then I'm helping you figure out what to do. >> Where where did he come from? >> He was born in Ria Latvia, but it's kind of Ria was not far away from Kovno, Lithuania. And it was a very nice weather, so people would go to have their children there. But he was really raised in Kovno, Lithuania.

6:07 >> And what year was he taken away? Was he taken away to the concentration camps? Yeah, he was 9 years old when the war started, around 10 and a half when he was sent to the Kovno ghetto and around 12 when he was taking on this cattle trains to DOA >> 12 and a half when he arrived to DO. But if you look at his paperwork in DO, you know, the Germans kept very clear details. The entry says that he was born in 1927 instead of in 1930 giving him an age of 15 because his father my grandfather lied and said that he was 15 years old so they would let him work in the concentration camp.

6:49 >> Wow. And what year did he arrive in the concentration camp? >> probably 1942 1943. Yeah. >> And then he was liberated with Dhaka in 1945. >> Correct. >> Straight from there. And then where did he go? >> I have like so many stories I can tell you when you're asking me these questions. I just know I don't want to start getting so emotional out the gate. But he was was 15 and a half when he was liberated.

7:17 He went to a sanatorium where they helped them recuperate in Sanutilian for 6 months. Then he was in a refugee camp for six months and then he went to Mexico. >> How did he get to Mexico? >> A generation before my aunt and uncle, his his aunt, I'm sorry, his aunt and uncle had immigrated to Mexico. I think mainly because they couldn't get to the United States. So they so they ended up in in Mexico. And then when my father and my grandfather survived and my my uncle survived too, but he ended up getting assigned to the US military and became a translator to them for six months. So when my dad and my grandfather started trying to go somewhere, they connected with my grandfather's siblings and they agreed to sponsor them and that's how they ended up in >> And what did he do when he get to Mexico?

8:13 when he got to Mexico, he first of all, he didn't speak Spanish, he didn't speak English, and he had a third grade education. And the way he educated himself was by reading, used the encyclopedia. So, cover to cover, volume A, volume B, volume C, read thousands of books, learned Hebrew, English. By the time he passed away, >> he spoke nine languages and read over 5,000 books. And he started working double shifts in a factory. and worked a lot of menial jobs. Eventually he and his father saved enough money to buy a little jewelry shop or to build a little jewelry shop. And eventually they kept working really hard. Eventually he and his father, my grandfather went to Switzerland and got the rights for a lot of watch companies from Rolex. So the Mar Pier to represent them in in the dutyfree business. They had an exclusive to sell these watches in duty-free stores which was very valuable.

9:15 >> That where you got your sense of branding and style. >> I don't think I have a sense of style still. >> Yeah. But this is pretty good. >> Yeah. That that actually is very interesting if you look at my because I did 10 years of branding mistakes before I figured out with kind and it's just pattern recognition that you develop over many years. So, I still don't think I would have this style, but I have visual style for packaging. I'm really good at that now because of all the mistakes I've made. And I I launched my first brand before kind was a company called Peace Works that was using business to bring Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Turks to trade with one another, to give neighbors an incentive to work together, to shatter stereotypes, to cement relations. And the first brand we launched was this line of sundried tomato spreads, olive spreads. It was called Moshe Pupik and Ali Mishman's world famous all naturatural gourmet foods. I still don't know why it didn't work out.

10:19 but that's what taught me to next time just call it kind and just keep it simple. >> Mosha Pupik. >> Mosha Pupik. >> For those who don't know, Moshe is Moses in Hebrew and Pupik is actually a Yiddish word for belly button. >> Yeah. Right. But Moshi Pupik is a name that people use for jokes, right? Like in Mexico used Pepito is the guy. I don't know if there's such a thing in English, but in Mexico, Pepito is the protagonist in all the Mexican jokes.

10:44 Mosha Pupik was the guy in the Yiddish jokes and Ali Mishkin. In my mind, Mosha Pupik was this great chef and Ali Mishkin was a magician. And together they the legend told that there was an impending war in the Middle East and the rival armies were fast approaching one another. and Moshi Pupik and Alimin got together and concocted this sundre tomato spread whose aroma was so magical that it spread across the horizons and put the rival armies in an friendly trance and they were so rejuvenated they used the strength of the sun to melt their weapons into spoons and use the spoons to partake the sunre tomatoes and became friends and then have hundreds of years of peace. That was the legend of Mosha Pupik and Alimisha.

11:29 >> Quite a story. Did you come up with that story? >> I came up with that story and many other stories. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. Each one of our products had a different legend. but my favorite one was the one of >> Why do you speak Yiddish? >> When I was raised in Mexico, I went to a Jewish school of immigrants. So it was really weird. I didn't realize it was weird till I look back. But that was the first language they taught us in in that school. Yiddish and Hebrew. only later when you were in high school that would teach you English.

12:01 >> What about Spanish? >> Spanish I I was my mother tongue. That was what I learned in in what I spoke and in school it was Spanish, Yedish and Hebrew. Spanish and Yiddish then Hebrew and many years later English. Where's your mom from? >> My mom was born in Mexico in Tampico Tamalipas in the north of Mexico. Her parents immigrated a generation before from Eastern Europe. So before we came on, you told me about a bunch of attempts you made to to do business in various parts. Tell tell of the world.

12:35 Tell us about them. I think they're important. >> How much time do you have? I mean, I think the amount of things that I did wrong is so much greater than the amount of things that I did right. And one of the things that I notice is that just trying things out teaches you so much. And sometimes making mistakes actually teaches you more than getting it right because you make mistakes. You have to be introspective to figure it out what didn't go right and then you learn from those. So I was trying to represent international brands to because I had this passion for the Middle East. I had this company that I started Michael after Stanford Law School called Metic.

13:15 The Middle East trade and investment center. And the purpose of metic was to try to help build joint ventures between Arabs and Israelis. But like I had this this confused Mexican Jewish lawyer that had a crazy accent. And the Israelis and the Arabs were like, "Why do we want you to teach us what to do?" So I I didn't get a single client for two years. I was running Metic and I didn't get a single client. I got a total actually I got one client who got my work for free and got a lot of free services for me but I I I got a total of zero revenues in throughout the thing and that then gave me the idea to start what became peaceworks but I tried to convince big multinational brands Starbucks Dell many others to give me the rights to represent them and take their place >> how did you try to convince Dell to represent them >> I I I think I was just stupid enough to not know what I didn't know. But what's interesting about that naive is what gives you the fire to eventually get things right. Right. If you don't know where you should not try things out, then you also sometimes get it right.

14:23 And so I think the the the lack of sophistication and knowledge gave me the opportunity to try many things that I didn't get right and many that I did get right. >> How did you try to convince Dell computer Dell computer at the time? Well, specifically with that, I had relaunched Peace Works and while it wasn't a big business, the maximum sales peace works ever had were $3 million. Most years it hovered below a million. It was like this. It was two steps forward, two steps back. So many mistakes I'd made. but people love the concept of peacework. So I got a lot of recognition and so I was invited to the World Economic Forum to many other fora. And one day I I was I was so stupid that I went to the Davos Mountains and I didn't realize that it was cold there. So I didn't bring a jacket. I was freezing my ass the first night. There's a snowstorm takes over and I cannot find that taxi for the life of me and I'm freezing. I'm wearing this very thing thing and it's snowing like crazy. So, I flag this black car and I tell these people, "Could you please give me a ride and they look at each other, this couple, and they're like, "Okay." They let me into their car and I start talking like right now, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. And like, "Let me tell you about peace. Let me tell you about the work I'm doing to bring Arabs and Israelis together for peace." And like, "But enough about me. What's your names?" And he says like, "Oh, I'm Michael Dell." I'm like, "What?" And he was the most modest. He and Susan were just the kindest, most wonderful people. Then I was deluded enough to write him an emails. But I wrote to Jeff Bezos. I wrote to Michael.

16:06 I wrote to everybody that would poor guys. I They were like, "Who's this guy?" But you know, eventually >> you living in Mexico at the time or in >> No, I was living in New York. >> In New York. >> Yeah. We immigrated, my family immigrated from Mexico in 1984 to the cradle of civilization, San Antonio, Texas. And I went to two years of high school there, college at Trinity University, one year abroad here, well six months abroad in Jerusalem, six months abroad here at Hebrew University where I first met Palestinians, where I met a lot of friendships with Israelis.

16:41 And I had the idea for using economics as a force for bringing people together. And then I took that back to college and wrote a thesis that became actually very very famous among doctors because if you were having insomnia and you couldn't fall asleep, they would give you my 268 page treaties and you'd fall asleep right away. It was the most boring theoretical thing in the world. And everybody thought this guy's deluded. How? Because at in 1989 there was no breakthrough. All of a sudden 1993 there is the the breakthrough between Israelis and Palestinians brokered by Clinton.

17:18 And that's when I decided to start peaceful. >> And here we are in 2026. You've been passionate about this Middle East Israeli Palestinian issue for almost >> all my life. Ever since I was 12 years old. >> 40 years old. Over 40. >> Ever since I was 12. >> What happened at 12 that caused you to become interested in it? When I was 12 years old, I I wanted to work. My I didn't need to, but I really wanted to be an entrepreneur. Maybe because my father was like that. I don't know why. What got into me? Because most nice Jewish kids didn't do what I did, but I would get on the subway all the way to downtown Mexico. I first take a bus and take the subway and then work in a textile factory from the Sarati family.

18:02 Thank you if you're listening to give me that chance for my first job. And I was cutting textiles cloth and selling it and in the checkout counter and carrying big telades in the heat of downtown Mexico. What it forges you and it was a great experience. But one day I was on the bus and right in front of me were people talking about Jews and they were talking about Jews having horns and talking about the Middle East conflict.

18:30 And I I I remember as a 12-year-old being like, "Oh, wow. There's so much shinkurans. There's so many so many problems with the lack of understanding between people. I need to prevent what happened to my father from happening again to other people by building bridges. And so, ever since I was 12, I started writing letters to the newspapers and getting involved in learning about how to I thought that my mission was going to be building peace in the Middle East.

18:57 >> Do you think that the Holocaust was singular or could be revisited something like it? Oh, it absolutely >> absolutely can happen >> in some ways things like it not as a can't compare tragedies. I'm not like I don't want to reduce other people's suffering but yes the lack I mean in fact I know I'm one of the founders of the builder movement because we recognize that dehumanization polarization hate division are the elements that bring about an ignorance that bring about the conditions for a whole people to for some to think that they should destroy an entire people like they did in Rwanda like yeah unfortunately we as humans have the capability to think that the other side is not human and then to do some atrocious things once that happens.

19:46 >> Are are you worried right now about the rising tide of anti-semitism that that it'll kind of crest over and become a title wave? >> I mean first of all I'm a Mexican Jew. I worry by definition. So and I'm the son of a Holocaust survivor. I think it's in my epigenetics to worry. But I my worry is a very it's not a paralyzing worry. is a word that drives me to action to do something good to build bridges to prevent what happening from happening to others like I've built the builders movement the one voice movement kind peace works empathico tons of other ventures that I've done some very successful not very but I'm always driven to build rather than to complain or to be paralyzed and so my worry drives me to do something constructive and concrete to actually do that. But yes, I'm very worried about this state of >> So you've you've tried and failed at a million things, right? And then we're very very successful with kind and a few others.

20:47 >> And what are the other ones? well I built together with my colleague Muhammad Rasha the one voice movement which got close to a million Israelis and Palestinians across the West Bank Gaza and across Israel to mobilize to propel their political representatives to reinitiate negotiations to we built a whole human infrastructure of people that wanted to try to be problem solvers. I've was one of the earliest investors in in Cava. I built a company called Somos that makes delicious Mexican food. I've started many other business ventures. I helped build the builders movement. We created the builders of Middle East which has over a billion views of helping in Arabic in Hebrew and in English show a positive side of the builders in the Middle East rather than the destroyers. I can keep going. But I can also tell you a hundred more things that I failed with and and I I wear those failures very proudly because there's no chance I would have built kind from $10,000 company to a multi-billion dollar company had I not failed with peace works and learned the lessons from I'll come back to the failure in a second. The reason I'm asking the question about the failing to success is certainly the pursuit let's call it of Israeli Palestinian peace even though I think because the Abraham Accords like you see Middle East peace may be on the horizon or at least some form of normalization or integration but it's 40 years that you've been at this.

22:19 Do you think that it'll happen? It can. And you, it's interesting you brought up the Abra because it is the most interesting example to bring up because first of all when I started dabbling in this I had a set of assumptions all of which were proven wrong. But then I developed another set of assumptions and you can think about how during the early 90s mid 90s everybody said the only way for Israel to achieve peace with its Arab neighbors was by making peace with the Palestinians. All roads to peace go through the pastas and unwittingly it gave a veto power to the pastas and made a lot of factors why it was not the healthiest circumstances.

23:02 When you look at what Jared and President Trump accomplished with Abraham Accords, you realize that all the all all assumptions all conventional wisdom is meant to be challenged and that every single one of those assumptions can be challenged. And one of the dangers that we get into particular as we succeed, we start thinking we're too smart. And particularly as we are introspective, we start thinking we've thought through these issues. And I've seen this happen to a lot of people that you've worked through the problem. So if you come up with your solution and then you think that is the answer, but guess what?

23:40 changes. Things change. Like other circumstances change. And so you need to constantly be questioning yourself, revisiting. I see you wearing a kipah. What I like the most about the Jewish tradition is questioning is you know the schools of was it Hel and Shamay that you always welcome the other school. Why you are you friends with Nousarasin? >> Yeah I know him well. >> Okay. >> He was here in that seat. >> Nousar and I are very very good friends that we collaborate. We do a lot of things together and he interestingly told me about my Judaism stuff that I hadn't thought about like how much he admires that in Judaism people are very comfortable questioning things. I think that's one of our superpowers. And it's a superpower for all builders in all religions, in all humanities. People that are comfortable asking why, asking questions can then figure out why not, why do things better, why, how to change things. So, is it a daunting challenge to resolve the Palestinian Israeli conflict? Yes. Is it very hard for Arabs and Israelis to achieve full peace, for Jews and Muslims, for Shia, Sunni, for any of these conflicts? Yes. They're very deep entrenched conflicts, but all it takes is every one of us recognizing that we cannot be just watching the stuff and become protagonist. The way you've gotten involved lately, or at least as far as I know, in the last three years in trying to address positive progress for helping the people of Gaza, I think the to build builders instead of destroyers, it's up to us. It's up to us because if you really think about it, Michael, overwhelming majority of human beings, not 90%, but maybe 95 or 99%, they want to be builders. They don't go to sleep thinking, I want to be a destroyer. They see themselves as builders. And the vast majority of people, it's not that they love the other side, it's that they want a better future for their children.

25:38 But there's a tiny minority of people with extremist visions that deny the humanity of the other side. And that might be 10% of a population, 1%, I don't know. But what's powerful about them is they wake up in the morning and they think how can I advance my cause. Whereas the people that want to solve problems in their daily lives don't think how can I solve this communal problems. They think it's for somebody else to solve it. That is a problem. You cannot if extremists even if they're a tiny minority they have the passion to solve and the moderates have the passion to go to the movies we're not going to resolve this.

26:19 So you need to empower people to be builders and to solve problems to be part of the solution to be protagonist. what you described I believe is the silent majority of people who as my wife likes to say you know most people just want to get up in the morning have a family you know raise their kids in in the right way make sure that they are successful in life and I would say don't have time or energy for the bigger issues that you're talking about that they're bigger than raising a family that's a big issue in of itself but it's call it a a a public policy or national issue how do you get people off the sidelines and create that passion in them just, you know, from getting out of their, you know, daily life, which is busy enough right now.

27:01 >> This is an area that I've thought about for 30 plus years. people like you and I have a responsibility to find ways to help everybody put in their two cents because it is a daunting problem. It is a daunting challenge. So our task is to try to find a way for builders to contribute what they can because to your point they're busy just making ends meet, just helping pick up their kids from school. They they don't have the ability to do too much. But guess what? Everybody can do a little bit. So it's in builders in the builder movement where we did in one voice with any work you need to try to find a way because there's a huge reservoir of goodwill. Everybody that I talked to about what I did, they're like yesterday I was with this Israeli Palestinian group and they were almost crying hearing the work we're doing and very grateful because a lot of people just don't feel there's a way to contribute.

27:59 It's not that people don't want to contribute is they feel powerless and so both in terms of also culture we need to give people agency. this oppressor versus victim framework that has been introduced to the young people. It's about the stupidest, most dangerous frameworks for humanity because you're either an oppressor and no matter what your actions, you're going to be a bad guy. You're born a bad guy and you're always a bad guy or you're a victim and then you have no agency to actually be a protagonist in your own life and solve things. And so the framework of builders for discharge is a framework where everybody has agency and you have to choose are you going to deny the humanity the other and take action to divide to demolish to diminish then you're a destroyer and these these are chosen carefully divide demolish diminish what do they mean to divide us from one another to try to divide humanity and society across weird identitarian frameworks. to demolish, to destroy because they don't know how to build and to diminish. It's very important. Destroyers, their primary goal is not to build, it's to diminish humanity, to make others feel lower, to make others feel diminished. Or are you going to be a builder? You're going to wake up and like your wife said, have your breakfast, drink your coffee, but after that, build. Take action to build.

29:18 Put in your two cents. How are you going to build? How are you going to elevate society? How are you going to build bridges, build schools, build innovation, build opportunities, build better communities, build build bonds with one another? How are you going to elevate society? And in the builders movement, our role is to try to enable people to do that. We have social media channels that you can join in Hebrew, in Arabic, in English. We now get over a billion views a year. And and the goal is to help people not tell them what to think, but how to think with a builder's mindset with curiosity, creativity, courage, and compassion. The four C's of a builder's mindset that helps you solve problems rather than tear each other apart.

30:00 >> Three D's versus four C's. >> Yes. It also kind of sucks because I'm D of Daniel. And yet I keep finding it's like they destroy, they divide, they demolish, they diminish And I'm the Daniel and the dad. Then for some reason the C's have so many fun things. >> Are your kids' names starting with C's or no? >> No. I have a very very important this might be my most important contribution to humanity. A very very big belief that every one of your kids has to have start with a different initial. Then you text them you can say A R N J. And I have friends like Robert Rodriguez the filmmaker. He named all of his kids with an R. Have a bunch of people Tori and her parents named all of them with a T.

30:40 I'm like, "Dude, what are you doing?" Like, "How are you?" And then it's worse when they all start with R A. I'm like, "Oh my god, you get to you need to get to a third letter to By that time, you might as well give the whole word. >> Time for a voice note. >> What do you do with your with your eight? >> What do I do?" >> Like, do they have all different names, initials, or there's not enough in the vocabulary for your >> I think so. Yeah, they do actually.

31:03 >> You haven't thought about that? >> No, never once. >> And let's go through it. This might be a breakthrough. You're going to become more efficient. >> One of them has a nickname. >> You might actually succeed now. >> One has a nickname. It they took his his his real name. It became from I to an S. So, and I have a daughter with starts with an S. So, that's >> I think we need to change the nickname.

31:21 >> I think I think we're good though. We had eight different ones. I think on the real names, >> but start using the initials now. Maybe you'll succeed after all. Tell tell me why do you think I want to go on to a different topic but why do you think that the progressivism led to this identitarian and victim identitarian politics and the kind of victim mindset and the oppressor oppressed framework like what happened >> there are many different questions the >> and why is it taking root now >> still taking root >> the oppressor versus victim framework is not new it's been in existence since the Soviet times >> for decades and for decades they cultivated and he just kind of like what's the name of that guy that popularized the Malcolm Gladwell he popularized a point about like how things don't change till they change very radically. I think the oppressor versus framework we were asleep at the will while people were cultivating that and was literally Soviet propaganda and it's a terrible framework for for any human being. Why would you want to be a victim or an oppressor? Like it's just so dumb. It's so dangerous. But it I think it's just started being taught by some people and then once they are in that department then they only hire people that will teach that and slowly but surely they take over over the department and then one generation later all your kids are being taught that way and you don't even realize it. But I I think what what I find more interesting is all extremes can lead to bad outcomes even if the intentions are very noble.

32:50 I've been thinking about this issue a lot. I agree with this. >> Like >> this is very my monadian by the way. I agree with this. Like my monities is all about this. But keep going. >> Please elaborate on that because I want to absorb. >> Yeah. Go you go first and I'll chime in. >> Okay. But remember to >> I've noticed a few examples of how good intentions lead to bad outcomes. For example, I was with the president at Stamford University, President Leaven, and he was telling me that prior to him coming, when new students came into Stanford, the first thing they did, before anything, they assigned them to their the school assigned identity group and sent them for a day with them. If you're black, go with the black kids. If you're gay, go with the gay kids. if you're Jewish, maybe go to Jews. And they would send them building, but it came from a positive intention. They're like, we want the Hispanic kids to connect with our Hispanic kids. We don't want them to feel alone. Which is all fine, but you then look forward and then it's all these identitarian clubs and frameworks and they don't connect with one another. So the president changed that and said the first day we bring everybody together and say what do we all have in common? curiosity, open minds, respect, like what are the values that we expect from you over the next four years at Stanford for everybody to hope by and yes, go ahead and develop your pride in being Jewish, Mexican, whatever you want, but first and foremost, you're a Stanford student with a quest to build bridges, to be a builder, to have open minds, whatever it is in the ethos, in the culture of why you were selected, these the things that you all have in common. And so this an incredibly interesting example of how good intentions to try to protect that particular identitarian framework so people don't feel left out all of a sudden led to horrible outcomes. When I was growing up, bullying was very prevalent and it's not good.

34:51 People with a positive intention tried to overcome bullying. That's a noble goal. You shouldn't want to have bullying. You should try to overcome bullying. You fast forward 20 30 years and I notice that a lot of times we're removing from kids agency for them to learn to solve their own problems 100%. And so if they read them the route act the first day they start school and kids are terrified and when I talk because we have the builder work we're doing pedagogical work with colleges and some of the heads of the universities and their advancement teams and their admissions teams tell me when I ask them that the thing that they are most fascinated and sobered up by is that these Young people arrive without a skill to interact with another and resolve problems together. They're like terrified. They're actually very good in the classroom, but when they need to solve a problem, they get scared because cancel culture and all sorts of threats and all sorts of hovering helicoptering parenting with good intentions to overcome the bullying remove the agency from the kids to learn how to solve it themselves. So it's fascinating because you should try to overcome the bullying but the better way to overcome the bullying going back to my dad to coach people for them to sort it out.

36:14 >> It's let when that happens don't remove them and send them here and send them there and do it for them as the administration. No bullying you go for two weeks to your school to outsider we expel you. They they expel kids so easily because they bullied. That's a missed opportunity to teach a person. Okay. Deal with the consequences. sort it out among yourselves. Coach them, teach them. The bullying is not good, but help them learn the skill of being a builder and solving problems. Promised you my monities. My monities says that there's different human character traits that are that are on a spectrum. He says that you need to take the golden path in the middle on all of them except for anger, which you shouldn't have anger. And I thought I was thinking about your father when I was thinking about my modern days, you know, someone who went through so much but didn't have anger.

37:04 >> yeah, you know, it's so hard for me as a father because I sometimes lose my temper. I don't remember my dad ever losing his temper with me. Like I'm sure once I remember he it's something like that. But like in general he never never never I don't remember being having anger. You know, you've talked about your father in terms of naming the company kind, and you know, one of the mottos of this podcast is values create value.

37:31 >> Yeah. >> And I know that was a big part of kind, but I think everyone a lot of people say that, but then it cost them a nickel and then it goes out the window. What are examples of things that kind that cost you a nickel, but that reflected the values of the be >> before I go there, I need to tell you two things. Ryan Holidayiday who's a very good friend of mine in Austin told me that values are only values when they're tested and they cost you something >> and it's a very interesting insight. I really like that insight. And the other thing I want to tell you is Camino Partners, our company, our framework is building value through values because we did it right at kind. We learned how to build a culture and a community where everyone was a stakeholder. Everybody's owner whether you were the janitor or the president of the company. Everybody got stock options and after six months the right to buy those stock options and encouraged to become an owner. We made scores of people into multi-millionaires and everybody was part of the ownership spirit and mentality and we created that culture where we didn't take shortcuts.

38:35 So at lemonade just as an example when we set up Lemonade and we talked about the business model of Lemonade which is aligned with our customers rather than where the way normal insurance companies work which is they make money when you get screwed. we basically created a Ulyses contract which is we tied our own hand. We wrote it into our company documents and that's how we tied the company's hands so we can't kind of get out of it.

39:00 >> I love that actually. >> But I how's it working out? Because I met the woman. >> Lemonade is the fastest growing insurance company on planet Earth. >> And the woman that there's a marketing runs, she's impressive. Leor's wife. >> Yeah. Maya. >> Wow. I remember meeting her. I thought she was really impressive. >> Yeah. She's the chief business officer of Lemonade. >> Yeah. I I think part of this stuff is to state your values publicly so that you're bound by them.

39:22 >> Yes. State your values. We did that very well at kind. We we I learned from doing it wrong at Peaceworks. And at kind we set out who we are, what we are and what we are not. >> So what were you not? >> We set a very set clear of guardrails of what our brand stands for and what it will not do. So for example, I'll give you one of many examples. At some point in our industry, there was a huge fad or zero sugar.

39:47 >> Yeah, >> there were a ton of products that were doing zero sugar. And at that time doing not zero sugar added, which you can do. Zero sugar present in your products, which in my product we cannot do because almonds have sugar, milk has sugar. Sugar is present in almost every product in fruit and everything. And so if you're making a fruit nut bar, you cannot have it have zero sugar. The only way you could have a zero sugar product is by using all artificial ingredients.

40:16 And we didn't want it to do that. So we it was hard by the way. It wasn't easy. We saw how for a while the zero sugar fat was growing and and we were like intimidated by it. So we went into try to develop products and fortunately we looked at our value set and said, "Okay, this is not us. We're not going to be able to follow that fat. We're going to be what we are and not what we're not.

40:42 And we developed the dark it might have been that one. Let me see what you I gave you. >> Yeah. The dark chocolate and sea salt. >> Yeah. >> And that product has five grams of sugar, which is less than what our other products have have 13 grams of sugar. We found a way to design a product with a teaspoon equivalent of sugar. Two grams out of the five grams come from the almonds, three grams from added sugars, but it's not that much. It's just a very very small amount of sugar. But it's not zero sugar and it tastes good. It doesn't taste like cardboard, which was our promise was that it's going to be kind to your body, to your taste buds, and to your words. So, it's finding having the courage to say what I'm not going to do, which is very hard for an enterp is incredibly addictive. It's >> Yeah, it's good.

41:25 >> Those are the those are the best products. If you're interested in finding out ahead of time what's going on in Israeli tech, what the latest trends are, who's breaking not only news, but breaking the trend lines, then you want to subscribe to Olive's newsletter. And you can sign up right in the show notes in the description of the show. Please subscribe to the newsletter. So, you sold kind and you went on Shark Tank. Why >> why I sold Kind or why I went to Shark?

41:51 Both are very big questions. >> Yeah, both. Actually, >> I asked myself whether I should have not sold Kind. very frequently. Kind was like not just a business for me. It was my baby. It was a vehicle for all of my values, for all of what I did. We created the most incredible culture. We had the most incredible performance in my industry. Like we grew a company from basically nothing to a multi-billion dollar company with no needed investment. Like I sold some secondary shares, but we never really needed meaningful money. We got to a 7 billion valuation with only five million $5.2 2 million lifetime in primary and five out of the 5.2 stayed in the balance sheet never needed it because we grew triple digits cash flow positively and profitably for 10 years in a row.

42:38 >> So why around 2016 2017 I started thinking we need to grow internationally. We had tried it and it had taken us a while. We are seeing competitors leapfrog us in other countries because in the US we're very solid. Everybody had tried but nobody had succeeded but we saw people borrowing our playbook and trying to apply it in other countries and we wanted to have the ability for kind to win in all those countries. We felt we needed an international partner.

43:12 Initially we wanted a partner that would just take the international rights and we would do it in the US. we didn't found find a partner that could that was interested in doing that and you know I also wanted to do other things with my life and the biggest mistake I made is assuming that if you if I no longer I'm running kind then I'll have a lot more time you understand why because once you have all the resources from that company and you need to allocate those resources and you still have the responsibility to invest that money it's very very hard in in some ways in terms of time allocation it's much harder today because 15 years ago I had kind and one voice you know work for peace in the Middle East to try to help Israelis and their neighbors to build economic relations and peaceful relations and kind today kind now has I have hundreds of investments it's so much harder to manage that and I'm working in the Middle East in the United States in Ukraine in other areas where I feel like the fighting anti-semitism, fighting her of hate, finding all sorts of challenge that I think that our world has encountered and so it's it's much harder to keep keep up. Why'd you do Shark Tank?

44:28 >> I love Shark Tank. I was on a plane one day and I look at this weird format where people are talking and I I'm a very curious person. I talk to everybody like I told you like my parents. So I ask the person I interrupt them. I can't believe I do that but I do that. I was like, "What are you watching?" And they're like, "Oh, it's Shark Tank." Like, "What is Shark Tank?" They explain it to me. I sit down and I'm probably on a longhaul flight. And I watched like 10 episodes. I'm like, "I am in love with that show." And then a couple years later, they call me and they're like, "We want to invite you as a guest shark." I'm like, "I'm in." Because I used to watch Shark Tank with my kids and we would pause it and I would talk to the kids. You teach kids about entrepreneurship. You teach kids about how to negotiate. You learn a lot.

45:10 What's what I love about Shark Tank is you're it's very engaging and entertaining, but you're also teaching people about the American enterprise system or about the entrepreneurship system in general. And it's one of the only shows that goes through generations, like like three generations. Grandparents, parents, and kids watch it together. And it's very enjoyable, very engaging. It's gone now for 18 seasons. It's just like an iconic show. >> How many investments have you made >> through Shark Tank? Yeah, >> I need to count them. Probably 15, 20.

45:42 >> Has anyone made money? >> Yes, but no one has given me back the money. it's very tricky. That's why Mr. Wonderful Kevin with his thing to get royalties and to do. He's kind of right because it's very hard. A lot of these are small businesses that don't unless you sell them which a lot of these people don't want to do. They it's very hard for you to actually see even the successful ones are still at an earlier enough stage. But there's also a lot that don't succeed because it's it's a work of love because it's starting super early stage. So I also do Shark Time because I like giving back. This is my way to teach entrepreneurs and help them the way I was helped.

46:22 >> You like being on TV? >> I enjoy it so much. It is. I also enjoy the challenge. It is so hard, Michael. At least my first season and you can tell my personality. I'm very comfortable talking and nobody's ever accused me of not talking enough till my first season on Shark Tag. I'm like in it. And first of all, the stage is very big. It swallows all the energy. So, I'm thinking that I'm screaming. I'm thinking I'm not active. And the producer like, "Daniel, you need to step in. You need to wake up." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" about like I feel like I'm invading people's privacy and screaming. It's very it it takes a lot. And did you were you a Seinfeld fan?

47:03 >> I'm not just a TV fan, but I have watched some Seinfeld. >> You know Jason Alexander plays the role of George. You remember George? >> Sure. >> George in one episode somebody teases him. It's mean to him. Gives him some bad lines >> and three days later George is driving and he comes up with a COMEBACK LINE AND OH I SHOULD HAVE SAID THIS. That's what happens to me on Shark Tank. Like, it's so quick and so fast that I find myself a week later processing. Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't do this. Because it's really it's it's what you see is what you get. It's real. You don't know what company's going to present to you.

47:40 And you have to develop the pattern to decide what to do or not to do on the go. >> What's your favorite investment? There's one investment that I did in we just recorded in June. This fall it's coming. I'm telling you, Michael, I think this might be a multi-billion dollar company. >> Okay. So, tell us >> first. No, I can't. >> Why not? >> I'll tell you it's the first platform investment that's a technology firm that could really, really, really, if we hit it right, there's a lot of challenges. I think it could become a major thing. I'm very excited about it.

48:17 >> Is it like reverse Darwinism though? Like the really great companies come to your family office and you know if you're in Austin they go to Joe Londale and Elon or whoever it is put it there and if I didn't get money from you in the normal way I'll go to Shark Tank and I'll find Daniel Leitzky there and see if I can persuade him to give me a few. >> I literally said that today to somebody's like oh my god this person wants to produce a movie I'm like listen if they want asking me for money to produce a movie I know it's a bad movie because they're going to go to the right people for the right stuff. I agree with you. I do think Shark Tank first of all is a platform that gives entrepreneurs enormous amount of reach.

48:50 >> Yeah. >> So all of a sudden your product is on there like one of the deals that I did oh my favorite deal is Nuro Nuro of the ones that I can announce Nuro is an incredible company but I actually didn't do the deal in the tank. it's these two young Asian guys Ken and Ryan. They launched this neurogum that if you want caffeine or if you want to go to sleep or if you want other forms of supplementation, you do it through mints or gum. They present amazing guys.

49:23 As bright as they come, insane. I'm like, "Oh my god, these guys are incredible." One, by the way, is paraplegic. He had an accident. Incredible story. Just about as bright as they come, but they're growing really fast. They went from zero to a million dollars very fast. And in my mind, I'm like, they're probably just getting distribution into the shelves, but it's going to then dip and their valuation is not right. I bow out. Kevin gives them an offer other game for, but they don't get a deal.

49:51 I tell them, "Guys, I really like you. If you ever need me, I'll give you a hand, but I'm not going to invest." A year later, they call me and they're like, "Daniel, remember how you said you'd give us a hand?" And I'm like, "Yes." And like we're about to go out of business. Like what happened? like we're getting sued with a frivolous lawsuit by somebody that's suing us for our trademark. The we would win in court, but this person's got deep pockets and they're going to bring take us out of business and they will not reason with us. So I'm like, "Okay, I'll give you guys a hand." And they're like, "Are you sure?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'll give you a hand." and I go to this person and I say, "Listen, you know, you know, you would lose in court.

50:33 So, I'm going to step behind them and eventually you're going to lose because but then you lose a lot of money and I lose a lot of money." So, the person decides to settle with them and leave them alone and they're so grateful because I literally saved their business. They start growing like this. Today, they're a hundred million dollar revenue business and on their path to become the next billion dollar brand. And a few months ago, they reached out like, "Look, you know, we're raising money. We want to put you on the cap table. We want to give you some stock options and some ability to invest." And I ended up doing I when I helped them, I didn't do it for the >> for any reason other than to help them.

51:11 But it felt really good to close the loop for them and for me. And so we recently did an update on them on Shark Tank. And Shark Tank is not just when it airs, then there's updates and then it reairs. reairs re you you get every time that it errors more people buy your product more people are so there's a there's a lot of value but you're right some of it is adverse selection like if you not every it depends who's presenting in this case the company that I told you that I think is going to be insane I think that they need the help but their concept is very good >> you gave them money >> we haven't closed you know when you they present to you on Shark Tank You only watch 8 to 11 minutes, but the pitch goes 30 to 45 minutes once in a while longer, but that's still not enough time. So, you're given the chance to do due diligence. If anything they said in the tank is not accurate, you can bow out. So, we're going through the due diligence phase. I hope we will close because I'm very excited about it.

52:16 What's the failure that you've learned the most from? I mean so many but peace works had so many pieces of failures. It's without any doubt is what helped me build kind from Mosha Pupicad which was world famous all naturatural good methods to kind from trying to be everything to everybody with peace works to trying to be very focused with kind with peace works I didn't understand I was a confused Mexican Jewish lawyer selling sundried tomato spreads in the streets of Manhattan and I was walking down the streets literally I took out my legal briefcase emptied it of my legal books filled it with pa breads and baguette pets and I would take these jars of sundre tomato spread, olive spread and I would open the jar and feed it, hand feed it to all the buyers and I would go door by door. I would wake up at 7:00 a.m. in the morning, start on 122nd on Broadway, walk down door by door, store by store, store by store and then the then cross the street and then go up Broadway and then read and repeat the next day and Madison the next day and third avenue etc. And then the following day or a week later, I would take my beaten up car to deliver the product.

53:27 And I was determined to get on the shelf of every store. And I didn't understand the difference between what you call the bodega or at that time mainly was Korean grocery shops who like owned by the Korean community or a Macy's. I'm telling you, Michael, I was so stupid. And I didn't understand that products that are meant to be in Maces are not meant to be in the bodega. And I would go one by one and try to be in every store. And one day I went into this store on 84th on Broadway and I talked to Mr. Kim and I told him, "Would you try this peaceworks product made through cooperative ventures between Arabs and Israelis?" I said, "Sorry, you know, we people come here to buy toilet paper, ketchup, essentials. They're not going to buy a sundried tomato spread by Arabs." I'm like, "Okay, but Mr. You have to understand this product is delicious. And I'm literally force-feeding the gentleman. After an hour, he gets tired of me. He goes, he because in I guess in the Korean culture, you can't just say no or I just won't listen. He leaves. He goes down the basement.

54:33 >> Yeah. The storage is underground there. >> And I follow him. I go down the basement behind him. I swear to you, this is true. I did that so many times. I have I just go everywhere and eventually Mr. Kim says, "Okay, I'll buy one case for you." I'm like, "Yes, $33." I'm like, "This is it, Daniel. You're going to succeed because you have the grit. You don't give up. Yes, Daniel, you've got it all." And I'm like, "Go." Feeling so proud that after two hours, I got a $33 order.

55:04 The next week, I go by and I look on the shelves. 12 jars all still there. The next week, 12 jars all still there. A month later, two months later, a year later, 12 jars full of dust. I felt horrible for Mr. Kim, but also for my brand because it's not doing him any favors. He's he lost $33 that he's not converting in in our industry in CPG, consumer product goods. You need to turn the product.

55:33 >> People are actually selling you shelf space. They're not selling like it's you need to turn the product from those shelves. And if the product is not turning two years later and it doesn't do my brand any favors, it starts looking all old and whatever. So that's how I learned that like oh my god, you don't want to be everywhere. You want to be where you need to be, where the consumer wants to find you. In that case for Mohik, it was for a in a grocery at a specialty store. It was a specialty product. And and so when we launched Kind, we were very very clear about who we were, what we were. We didn't want to be everything to everybody because then you end up being nothing to nobody. We wanted to be the right product. Am I talking too fast? I don't know if the correct.

56:17 >> But it's like, dude, we cannot understand you, let alone with your Mexican Jewish accent, let alone with talking so fast. So, I'm sorry. >> You're doing great. >> Put some subtitles. >> How do you teach your kids that agency and grit? It's not the easiest because all of us as parents want to give our kids everything. Our instinct as parents is to give everything to our kids. And as one of the Debbie, a teacher at our kids preschool once said, it's like you as parents want to remove all the rocks from the road that your kids are walking. We as teachers have the duty to put some of the rocks so they learn how to stumble and learn how to grow. And so it's it's not easy. But I I do a few different things. First of all, they need to earn their own income. They need to work, they need to do chores, they need to develop jobs. we give them a very basic allowance for them to learn how to manage their own money. But then they have to anything extra they need to earn from their jobs.

57:12 you need to teach kids and people to be comfortable taking risks to reward. One of the reasons why Israeli society and American society are so good at entrepreneurship is because we're comfortable with things not working out. We we're not we're fine with what we call stupidly the word failure. It's not really failure. It's just you had a setback. You had a challenge. It didn't work. >> Another try. >> You're learning. You're you're learning. You're learning. And in certain cultures, if you quote unquote fail, it is a shame for your family. It is a sign of you cannot have that. You have to teach your kids, yourself, and your society that it's okay to try things out. And when they don't work, just make sure that you're introspective and learning from.

58:00 >> I have one last question for you. What's your aspiration that you say, I need to succeed at this over the next 10 years. You've done so much. I need to make sure that the world that you and I inherit to our children is closer to the one that we inherited where hate, division, dehumanization against Jewish people and against others where all of the you know when when I was growing up I came from Mexico to the United States in 1984.

58:30 Democracy was advancing, rule of law was advancing, economic freedom and economic expansion and capitalism were expanding across the world. the United States was exporting these all over the world. So I thought my my job is just to try to help build peace between Arabs and Israelis. I still care about that and I still I'm going to work toward that till the end of my life to help do do that. And I think it's going to come and I think actually the Middle East, Israel and its neighbors that are its partners are going to become some of the most incredible countries because there's just so much energy here, so much opportunity, so much talent. So I think actually it it it's not just going to get resolved. It's actually going to reward those that are part of the journey because it's going to I think become a very very important success story for the world. And you can it's not just allegorical. You can look at the data to to prove that out.

59:21 But I also now worry about the state of all of these western democracies and the threats against rule of law and tolerance and respect and kindness and democracy and economic freedom. And I think our job is to make sure that we remind everybody about the importance of these values because in my opinion, a meritocracy and all of these things are what help build the United States into what it was, what helped Israel from the desert that is what it is and what's going to help our Arab neighbors and others to help build a better future.

59:54 >> How do you know if you were successful? >> How will I know if I'm pretty clear like is hate going down or is it going up? >> How do you know? How do you know? Like Islamism for example as a form of hate is is on the rise. Anti-semitism as a suffering of hate is on the rise. Like how do you know if you're going to be successful? >> I mean first of all campuses are becoming more intolerant. You know your Stanford story is an outlier for now >> but it's starting to change. If you look at if you look at >> it took 20 30 years to get into this trouble. It's going to take 20 30 years to get out of it. So in higher education which is among the worst arts but even K12 people have seen it and they're now starting to change but it's going to take a long time curriculum and training of education. Social media is one of the biggest problems right now.

60:43 >> You're not going to solve that. >> You have to because alternatively society is going to be in trouble. You have to in two three ways. Number one you need to adjust section 230. It makes no effing sense that an entire industry, the most important industry by the way, is immune of any liability. It's never existed in history. And if it stays, it's going to destroy our society. Is what? Because there's effects that are going to destroy the economy. I'll give you an example >> right now.

61:17 whether it's on social media or on an e-commerce website, if they take your likeness and monetize it and make money over a deep fake, they cannot be sued. It makes no sense whatsoever right now. If they take an infringing patent or trademark, a product from China that copies our Shark Tank Company, they cannot be sued. So, it's going to destroy the small businesses. It's going to destroy the American enterprise spirit. You need to make some adjustments so that internet companies and social media companies can be held liable under certain set of circumstances. It's tricky to adjust it, but it's not where it is right now where there's zero liability. Now, to your question, it's not going to happen because all of these companies now are so powerful and they have more lobbies than anybody. The only way you're going to solve this problem and all other problems is by uniting citizens to force the politicians to be accountable to the will of the people rather than to special interests, industry groups or extremists. Like the political parties have amassed so much power and they're now just focused on getting reelected and getting more power rather than solving problems for citizens. That's what the builder movement is about. Anybody that's watching that has even the most tiny belief in what I'm saying, go to my channel, Daniel Lubetski. Go to Michael also if you're not following, but go to go to all of our builder channels in all the languages that we have them and join and listen and start joining. We'll give you tools for how to do this.

62:50 Ultimately, we need to build a block of citizens that holds politicians accountable to follow the will of the people and to solve problems together rather than tears each other apart. like there's all these extremists that are getting elected by monetizing all of this hate. We cannot let that happen. So yeah, it's going to be hard, but we have to we have to solve it. It's not just going to otherwise force create hate. It's going to destroy the e economic fiber that exists.

63:18 >> What's something kind you want to say about somebody? >> my mom always notes that I'm in love with my father and I talk about my dad all the time. My mom is the friendliest, sweetest. She will talk to everybody, even more than my dad, even normally. She makes friends with everybody. She's just full of life. She's 82 years old and she's always thinking about others. She comes up with a suitcase filled with toys for everybody and gifts for everybody. She's always trying with this. She's 82 years old, can barely make it through. She's always bringing gifts and toys for everybody. She's a sweetheart.

63:53 >> Thank you. Are your kids embarrassed by the fact that you talk to everybody? Oh yes, they are embarrassed and they can't help themselves becoming that. >> Daniel, thank you for joining. >> Thank you. >> And you should definitely subscribe to Daniel's channel. And if you want to follow Daniel Leki, he's on X at Daniel Leki spelled D A N I E L U B E T Z K Y. That's on X. You can find him there.

64:18 >> And also on Instagram and other >> and also on Instagram and other channels. Are you on Tik Tok? >> Probably. Yeah, >> probably. Yes. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us five stars on Apple Podcast and Spotify and subscribe to the YouTube channel. And if you enjoy the content, please subscribe to our newsletter as well.