The non-performing salespeople weren't the problem. I was. | Rich Conway | 2 Commas by Josh Comrie

0:00 Richard Conway is a pioneer in the search space in New Zealand and in fact has even written a book on it. He has some strong views to share based around his own experience of getting into business with others, the psychology of success, failure, and relationships. And it's a very candid look at what it takes to thrive and succeed in a challenging market over a period of time. But first time I was asked to speak at an event, I couldn't sleep for 2 weeks beforehand.

0:25 >> Wow. Yeah. You can blame loads of other people for their behavior. I've been screwed over so many times and but I allowed that to happen and then how I feel as a result of that is something that I'm allowing to myself and allowing me to impact. And we kept bringing these salespeople on paper were amazing and they kept failing cost me hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and I just thought we were bringing in crap salespeople and so I was setting them up for failure the previous ones and I was actually abdicating the responsibility to them to be successful when I wasn't actually giving them the tools and structure to be successful sale of the agency which you know I could have retired if you I was I was looking at my retirement thinking sitting on the beach doing these different things But they fell over. I used to want to be that nice guy liked by everyone. don't care anymore.

1:23 >> Richard Conway. >> Hey, >> welcome to the show. >> Cheers. Thanks for having me. >> It's great to have you here, fella. >> Yeah, it's good. So, you have been described and self-described as being an introvert with imposter syndrome and yet the last few years you've become kind of the voice the face of marketing. You've written hundreds of articles, you speak at events, you're kicking off a podcast now. At what point did the little voice in your head go, "Hey, dude, dude, this is not what we cut out for."

1:51 >> That I believe in facing the fear and doing it anyway. You know, if you're not comfortable doing something, it says something. and and the only way to increase your comfort zone is by doing things you're not comfortable with. And it was back in early doors, probably 2012. I had an interview with a journalist, Jill South, and she said to me that to really grow your business, you've got to get out in front of people and talk. And the thought terrified me, but it it stayed in there. And I just thought, you know, you just got to do it. And yeah, >> but first time I was asked to speak at an event, I couldn't sleep for two weeks beforehand.

2:28 >> Wow. >> Yeah. Now knowing what you know, having been through the journey of getting comfort around doing it, if someone else is listening to this and going, "Yeah, that's something I really need to overcome myself." What like techniques or tips would you give to them to be able to develop some comfort, some confidence? You know, you're not going to start with confidence, but are there things that you do to help yourself feel more comfortable in that environment?

2:53 cuz you know whilst you're thinking about that I had the perhaps foresight in my 20s that I needed to be a good public communicator and I was average on a good day. So I went and did the Toastmasters program and I spent six years with that organization progressed through voluntary leadership roles. It was incredible for me in so many different ways and different fronts and I've made the suggestion to multiple folk. But that's the notion of time in the seat which means you know if you want to get good at something you need to practice doing that thing and that's what Toast Masters offers. but what things do you do to prepare yourself both physically you know mentally, psychologically?

3:26 >> So I think I'm quite unusual. I hate having a script before I speak like and the process of building the deck or the what I'm going to talk about is my process of understanding and learning what I'm going to say. And if I'm talking about someone else's data or someone else's theories, it stresses me out. Whereas I've realized if I talk about what I think and what I believe, it's actually much less stressful for me and I can just use the slides as a guide and just roll with it on the day. But if I practice too much beforehand, it stresses me out because I'm trying to remember bits to put in. So it's much more conversational. Even like this podcast, I don't want to look at questions beforehand. I just rather roll and see what happens. M >> but it is that continual exposure because it gets less frightening. I've been doing it now what 17 years. So and I've probably spoken hundreds of times and it's only in the last few years that I'm relaxed about doing it.

4:25 But interestingly people have always said to me you don't look stressed but if they see me beforehand like slightly palid and like sweating a little bit. Yeah. they know. But also once you're up there and you start and also the worst has happened before. I've had heckla I've had slides not work and had to just adlib the whole time and when you go through that and you do all right and nobody really realizes you realize a lot of it is self-t talk >> and you learn a lot over the years that the stories you tell yourself aren't necessarily true. and so it has been that continual exposure and going through some times that it all went wrong but it went right. So >> yeah underprepared to succeed. I like that. what I heard in the background though is that there is a awareness of the subject which is really important. So it's having that you know deep subject matter expertise firstly. secondly being your authentic self. So not trying to be someone which is interesting because one of the ways that one can become successful at doing the speaking thing is to create and assume a character. I watched for example recently the Hulk Hogan documentary and Hulk Hogan's a created character by Terry Bellanchini I think his name was and as you went through the series it became quite clear that the blurring there was a massive blurring between Terry and Hulk who who is this man who is this character.

5:53 so for you though it pays to be authentic, rich and then when you get up there you feel comfortable doing that and being yourself and then you know the subject matter and the slides are there as a guide. Is that have I got that right? >> Yeahve I've always been a bit heart my sleeve and bit open just generally >> and I often talk about things I think will happen and so it's opinion anyway so I can't be wrong. It's my view on something and I'm quite flexible in my view. If I get new information that means that my view has to change. I mean, that's part of being an entrepreneur. I think >> you can't be totally rigid in your view because new information changes things and so >> it's often my opinion or my view and it's supported by my knowledge and so I know where those views come from so I can defend them. But if someone puts something out there that I haven't seen or I didn't know and changes things, I'm quite happy to take that on board and evaluate my own thought process.

6:47 >> Yeah. it's the notion of strong opinions, lightly held. so argue like you're right, listen like you're wrong kind of thing. which I love both of those expressions, neither of which are mine. so let's go back a step because we've talked about marketing. We need to give some context to to Rich Conway. so you you first came to New Zealand for a holiday in 2002, I think, and you traveled around, thought this is pretty amazing. And then seven years later, you decided to uproot your life and move out here with your then partner and make a start in what was essentially New Zealand. That was right in the depths of the GFC. Talk us through that. So that that moment, that arrival in New Zealand, you had no friends, no family that was here. What was what was that like?

7:26 >> Oh, it was hard. Like u but fun. Like I'm I'm an eternal optimist. I was like I intrinsically see the positive and the and I kind of minimize the negative and but it was hard arriving at a country where you don't know anyone. and you need to find work or do something. So but I I always had the mindset that I'd rather regret doing something than regret not doing it. And I went to school in a place called Camden Town and it was pretty rough and you know you get off of drugs and it's fights and stuff on the way home from school and I wanted kids. I didn't want to bring my kids up in that kind of environment and so that was kind of one of the thought processes behind moving to New Zealand.

8:08 Let kids be kids. but it was really hard at the beginning. >> All right. yeah, I being an introvert, I go to events and I wouldn't know anyone. And it was really uncomfortable for me to speak to people and and so I developed strategies to do that. >> And as you get older, you realize again the thoughts are in your head. Like you think people are thinking that you you look awkward or people don't care. They're thinking about themselves, how they look.

8:39 >> and but it's taken me a long time to work that out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think we can get self we can get obsessed with what others opinions are of us and in reality they've got the same thought pattern going through their head. Hey, it's Josh. Thanks for listening to the show. When founders talk about the dream exit, they're really talking about freedom. Freedom to choose how to use their time and to decide what comes next. I'm a client of JB Wear in New Zealand and I know this is what sets them apart. They help entrepreneurs and leaders turn success into significance. A great exit isn't just about the commas in your bank account. It's about what those commas enable you to create. Two commas is proudly partnered with JBware, helping founders by putting their wealth to work for generations. One of my favorite strategies for a networking type event is just to walk up to the person that's alone because they're the one that is really desperately wanting to talk to someone. So, they'll crave connection with anyone rather than walk up to the group of people and just go, "Goodday, I'm Josh. what brings you here?" And so that forces them to think and then get into a meaningful conversation about the event and you can then kind of lead your way forward rather than going how are you or you know who are you with or you know what's your company or that sort of stuff which is just a a wrote thing that gets someone thinking and into a kind of a fun interesting kind of conversation.

10:06 Yeah, that's interesting because I had a similar strategy when I first started. But it's come to a stage where I feel I can walk into any room and talk to anyone totally comfortably. But again, it's taken a long time. I went to is it Miss Juan? I was invited by someone and you I went into the we're invited to the pre-party and it was full of like people that knew each other and stuff and yeah that was a real test for me cuz it wasn't my natural environment but within 5 minutes we're mates with everyone and we're having fun and it's I think if you approach people in a positive way and you like smile and you actually genuine interest people reflect that back to you and so often >> even if you don't realize it the way you feel and the way you what's going on in your mind is projected and like if people see that you're not bothered and that you're just there happy and smiley, they they kind of warm to you.

11:04 >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Walk up to someone with a smile on your face and your extended hand. It's hard for that not to be replicated. there's an expression in and around sales which is attributed often to real estate agents which is commission breath. and so that's the whole wanting something. So if you turn up with an open mind and an open heart as you say then it's amazing where it can go. So you're most famous for pure SEO. that's the brand that people will associate with you the most. What was the starting part of that journey for you?

11:31 >> I needed to earn some money. I've always wanted to do something in entrepreneurship. I've got like a family kind of history where you know we've got a few successful entrepreneurial kind of people in my family and I had a few ideas. One of them was in property because my background is in commercial property and I had someone who was wanting to be my business partner. And then they pulled out and I realized I don't really need anyone else. And I knew marketing, I knew digital cuz I've been in and around the industry within commercial property for a while. And so I thought there's probably a need and let's just give it a go. And then came up with a name. got my mate John Lloyd to create the logo for a bottle of Grey Goose vodka cuz he didn't have the money. got someone to create a single web page and I cobbled together the rest. It looked like a child had built it but that was all I had.

12:28 and I just started meeting people. but it it was hard. >> What did the competitive landscape look like? was were you walking into a space that there was an acknowledged need for what you had or did you have to create the industry and build the demand as you were going? >> So you you referred to the GFC at the beginning and I actually think that was to my advantage because when you're starting something in a environment like that you are lean already. You don't have the cost structure that a lot of incumbents have. and we were going to a stage where smaller businesses were waking up to the need to be visible online. The biggest issue h that I had was I believe in doing the right thing and and ethics first. And a lot of the competitors were saying we guarantee your rankings. We get you number one on Google within 3 months. And my pitch conversely was well I can't guarantee anything and it's going to take a long time. And so you you have those competing pitches and what you going to go for? You know, mine was much less compelling, but it was honest. And it took a good 12 months for the market to wake up when Google did algorithm update and all these people that are doing dodgy things lost their rankings. That's when my business started taking off.

13:49 but it was hard and and you do think in your mind, well, should I offer guarantee? Should I do what other people are doing? But deep down I knew it's not the right thing to do. And so I didn't. But not doing it at the beginning was really hard with hindsight, staying to your morals actually wins out in the long run. And I've kept that thought process throughout the journey. >> Yeah. I believe staying true to oneself is probably the one of the most difficult but also the most rewarding over the long-term things that you can do. Warren Buffett said that a reputation takes a lifetime to build and 5 minutes to destroy. And we think I have thought over time you and I have talked about legacy in the past and I actually truly reckon the only legacy that you leave behind is your reputation. And so if that is a man of a person of honor, a person of integrity, that does the right thing, does what they say that they're going to do, then I think you've probably achieved a pretty good outcome, right?

14:44 >> Yeah. And I I I've I've been thinking about this a lot actually. and I for me what really matters is the people that know me, the real close people to me, the people that love me, the the people that know me deeply. I care what they think, the legacy with them. I actually don't care what people that don't know me think. It's more about those I've I've really opened up to and those who truly know me beyond the good times, bad times. And so you're talking family, close friends, partner, and things like that. And I don't really care so much if someone who loosely knows me or doesn't know me think something bad about me. But I do care very much if someone I'm close to.

15:30 And I if if they do, I want to examine that and I want to understand why and see if it's something that, you know, a blind spot, something that I need to work on because, you know, we're all imperfect. It's the whole if you want to have a hospital wing named after you by paying for it, that's your ego speaking because then that's having strangers acknowledge and maybe express some respect for you. what you're talking about there is the people that are in your inner circles u making sure that you're doing the right thing by them and you know having having a a great relationship.

16:05 Esther Pel says the quality of our life is determined by the quality of our relationships and that's a manifestation of that. Have you had it go wrong? Have you had instances where it's gone off track? And if so, what have you done about about that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. There's I'm intrinsically positive and I see the world in a certain way. and not everyone's built that way. And so sometimes I can have a tendency to brush things under the carpet that you are important to other people because I don't see the negative side. I don't see that. And it's you learn that over time you learn you only control your actions and your reactions to things. You can't control what other people think, what they do. And you can kind of abdicate responsibility if you don't, you know, realize what is truly the genesis of how you feel. So, you know, you can blame loads of other people for their behavior. I've been screwed over so many times. And but I allowed that to happen.

17:09 >> And then how I feel as a result of that is something that I'm allowing to myself and allowing me to impact. But it it takes a lot of to go through to really understand that and truly believe it because you know someone does something or says something and you think that's unfair and that really impacts you and you like start defending and all that kind of thing. Whereas often defending isn't the right thing to do. It's actually listening and understanding. And if you truly believe that their point is incorrect, you put your point once and then you know they can think and feel whatever they want to feel. And so reflecting back when things are unfair and then pushing that is probably something I did in my younger years that I wouldn't do now cuz >> yeah they're entitled to their own feelings and their own reactions.

18:08 >> and yeah, letting it impact me as well was something that used to affect me. I used to be I used to want to be a nice guy liked by everyone. don't care anymore. >> That's interesting. so you talked about abdicating things. and so abdicating decisions and responsibility means that in my world you don't get to complain about the outcome because you've kind of empowered someone else to make that decision for you. the other thing that can happen as a consequence of that is that if it's done unconsciously or without that sense of you know awareness then people might get to the stage of feeling like they're a bit of a victim if things don't go the way that they want them to go. Is is that a is that a sense that you've had in the past and that's something you've transitioned out of as well? Like why has this happened to me kind of thing or is that is that not in your psyche because you're an innately positive person?

18:57 >> Yeah, that's probably not in my psyche. But what I have done I actually had this conversation with Tim on the way over here is you put people in a position within a company and you tell them to do something and then you just expect that it's done. And then when you find out it's not done, you get disappointed. there's always reasons from their side why it's not done. And you realize over time that there are certain personality types and you actually have to consider it and actually put the right people in the right places. If you ask someone to do something and they don't do it and there's an excuse and it always ends up being external factors over time you got to realize that they're probably not the right person to delegate authority to cuz you're delegating things that then don't get done and I like the idea of delegating things and I can remove it from my mind so that I just know it's done. Well, if you have people that don't execute, then you can't remove that from your mind. Or if you do, it's a mistake.

20:06 And so, I think the leadership around you is really important. And the ability for people to take responsibility and also look at the commercial side. There's very few leaders in New Zealand like that in my experience that understand not only the mechanations of a business but also tie that into the commercial outcomes >> and for me that's critical for good leadership. >> It's interesting. I'm pleased we have a leadership conversation. I've kind of circled around this from a variety of different fronts over the years and for a while there considered myself not not an expert in leadership but a keen student of the methods and the tactics around leadership and following iconic leaders over time you know people you'd probably anticipate to be there Winston Churchill and you know Lincoln and Jefferson and all these great people that have you know forged a lot of the path that we walk on today and where I've landed now is that because I used to think about them as being kind of, you know, separate.

21:12 and I think for a company to run well, one needs to have doses of equal and you can flex up and down depending on where the business is at and what the individual needs. So, I'll be clear about what I mean by that cuz that can sound a little bit opaque. so leadership I I delineate leadership and management as being management. If you're in the military sense because we derive a lot of modern business strategy from the military and so in the military sense it would be getting the army, the provisions, the munitions, the supplies to the bottom of the mountain, the range that you wanted to take. And then leadership is getting people to run up the mountain into the hail of bullets, right? so leadership is about inspiring and developing and growing people and getting people to take action and maybe elevating them to take bigger action than they thought they could. Management is in the business of knowing measurements, keeping people accountable, making sure the supplies are there, making sure the toilet papers, the office is clean, you know, whatever else it might be. And so I think in a a business of any scale, let's call it more than the the old wagon wheel which is founder in the middle and then you know four or five people that'll be sitting around them when you can be in touch with everybody and you can be aware of what their workflow is and what they're working on.

22:22 Once you get past that scale and you need to have a structure in place like an organizational structure, you need to have equal bits of both depending on what's required and who the people are that you have in there. What's your experience with what I've just explained there? >> Yes. So, I'm definitely better at the the sort of motivational like side of the thing. I'm I'm much much worse at the management structure, organizational side of things. And so, and I don't enjoy it. And so, I I have a GM and I've had GMs for for many years to do that organizational KPI structure. I like to understand the numbers, but I like to do it at a high level. because it's not my skill set and so I'm probably more of a zero to one person than a one to 100 because ideas and I also probably need a buffer between me and the business because I've always got ideas and >> I I tend to chase shiny things >> and so you kind of need someone to say yeah that's a great idea but you can't do this if you're going to do that and sort of filter me from the team in general because I like I always got ideas. I've always see the way things could be and think holistically but also understand in a micro way. But I've struggled to communicate that in a way that people can understand which why Claude has been like an amazing thing because with Claude the AI tool I'm able to translate my my thought process into a structure and a a form that people can understand. the other thing I've learned over the years is whether it's an ADHD thing or what I tend to speak as I'm thinking. I vocalize thoughts.

24:14 And in the past, people would take that as instruction, which it wasn't. It's trying to vocalize and get feedback and formalize what I think we should do. But a lot of people don't work in that way. And if you're not explicit about that, and I didn't even realize that that was something I did. It's taken again time and mistakes to learn that. >> Yeah. >> but we're all different, aren't we? the forming thinking through discourse is something that I really enjoy doing as well. You know, where do thoughts come from? divine inspiration. you know, that's a thought coming through me from somewhere. I love that notion by the way because people turn up to a meeting or a a brainstorming or whatever it might be with some ideas and with some thinking. And if they are attached to that idea or that thought, then they lose the ability to be objective on that thing. and so they'll defend the hell out of it and they'll get annoyed about someone else's different idea. Whereas if you adopt the idea of thinking comes through me, then you can have the ability to circle around it in a critical way if that's necessary. You know, Dono six hats of thinking is a really good way. You know, how could this go right? what's the best relationship that could come out of this? what are all the things that could go wrong with this and and so on.

25:28 and so u maintaining objectivity of thought is a is a really useful thing, but I don't think it's a skill that many people have. so let's go back to a couple of beats at Pure SEO. because you built what was what is what was the number one search agency in New Zealand, but you didn't start there. and you know there's the moments where you have your first $10,000 month, your first, you know, $100,000 month, your first million month. so at which points along that journey did you note that the business was starting to creek and grow and strain and nearly break?

26:03 >> There's been a few inflection points. So when we got to sort of 19 20 people, we had mistakes started to happen cuz we're copying and pasting from Google Analytics. We were and there wasn't the processes and structure in place and I realized that if I didn't sort it out, we weren't going to deliver what I wanted us to deliver and we were going to start churning customers and but I knew I wasn't the person to do that. And so that's when I brought in my first GM.

26:33 I actually made a mistake and brought over my best mate from the UK. and it didn't work out. And for me, it was so emotional, like hugely emotional. going through that process of letting them know that it wasn't working out. I actually lent on my business partners at the time. and we're still mates. >> Just just to jump in if I can there, Rich. what was the reason that that the either the role design because I think about it as being one of a couple of things. It's either the way that the role is constructed or it's the fit of the individual with their either their skills or their kind of values fit that would mean that it didn't work out. So there's three different reasons there.

27:15 Which of those was most present for you and what did you do about it? That was the skill set I think. And I initially ignored it out of loyal or misplaced loyalty to my mate. fear of confronting it and losing the friendship. but ultimately it had an impact and I had to deal with it. And you learn over the years, you don't deal with things, they just get worse. And so, you have to deal with them quicker because everybody looks to you for leadership. and if you're not, that's not good leadership. If you're just brushing stuff under the rug, and I was definitely guilty of doing that a lot in the earlier days.

28:01 >> And then back to the other inflection point was around 50 people. That's when it started to have more structure. but what we did at the 20 people is we invested a lot of money building software ourselves to allow us to scale and systematically and that had a profound impact on the business and allowed us to scale in a way where we delivered consistent work. We opened an office in Manila where they logged into our system. and we built a reporting tool. but we spent you know over half a million bucks on that which again was a massive amount of money at the time but it reduced the time certain things link building at the time took from by about 3/4 over time and allowed us to create this office in Manila >> and so it was very worth it but then Google launched data studio later and that was a better reporting option than what we had built and so we canned our reporting system. And that's another lesson I think a lot of people, you spend a lot of money, you invest a lot of time and energy into something >> and then something comes out that's better. You can either hold on to what you've got and go behind the market >> or you realize that you've got to you've probably had the value out of it anyway.

29:17 And even if you haven't, you've got to go with the times and get rid of your attachment to what you've created and and see that there is other things. And so we >> canned our reporting tool and we brought in what was the best in the market at the time and it was slightly painful but I had no hesitation doing it. >> Back to the situation that you had with your mate that was the you appointed as the as the GM. the challenge that you face if you have a individual or a role that's not performing in the way that you want it to perform is that it establishes standards and that the standards are of you know underperformance are okay and so if one doesn't nip those things in the bud then it can permeate the organization right that means that we'll tolerate things that are not at the level that we need them to be at can I ask how did you sit down so you kick the can down the road as you've acknowledged that just simply makes things worse because they'll compound, right? You know, good compounds and bad compounds as well. So, how did you address and have the conversation with him?

30:26 Ultimately got to a stage where it was untenable. And so, I sat down, I spoke with him. I also leveraged the board relationship. So, Tony and Ian and we had the conversation and I explained like, you know, nothing personal. this is how I'm feeling and this is what it is. And I had a totally open, frank conversation with him. And like I say, we're still best mates, so it didn't impact that. in fact, I'm invited to be best man at his wedding.

30:58 >> but again, it was stories I was telling myself and they weren't true. I think if you handle these things in a it doesn't always work but if people can hear it if you handle them in a honest transparent and empathetic manner they they can sometimes if the right people take it on board and understand and you know we've been mates since we're like 11 years old so >> >> but it was emotional because he moved from England to New Zealand.

31:30 >> Did he go back or did he stay? >> Did he go back? he regrets going back, but it was partly his >> you know the the impact of of that and you know he felt responsibility and he felt he'd let me down even though cuz he gave it all his all you know so I think he regrets going back a little bit. but yeah, it is what it is, isn't it? >> Yeah. it's interesting. honest transparent I think compassionate might have been the third thing that you said about handling those things. I have had a lot of experience in dealing with subpar performance from people.

32:08 That's just what happens when you start scale and own businesses of of some kind of size. And the unfortunate thing that I add on to the end there, if if with the right person, which is what you said, they'll deal with it the right in the right way, the wrong person will go and get a lawyer. And we've all had that in that instance of the the claim of the PG. and that just becomes an ugly and a difficult situation. So, if anyone's listening to this, the the candid approach is helpful in circumstances.

32:43 I would add to say that always be aware of what the contract says and keep yourself on the right side of the legislation because a a PG in New Zealand will normally go the favor of the employee not the employer. and it'll cost you many thousands of dollars that you probably don't have to spend on that thing. and you'll probably end up settling, which is always the advice that you get. And then yeah and I've had instances where you know patently we've been in the right but something wasn't followed correctly legally and you just end up in the situation to pay. So >> yeah. Yeah. It's and it's often the highs the egoled people that >> they're so affronted their ego so affronted they actually can't hear what you're saying and they can't accept what you're saying. and it's it doesn't matter what you're saying when they're when they're triggered or they're highly emotive, they're not going to hear it.

33:40 And so it's kind of adapting to the different personalities, but in respect of the the whole PG thing, in essence, the worst it's going to cost you is 3 months wages. And so, if you can afford it and if you don't feel like you're, conflicting with your morals, sometimes it's easier just to give them 3 months, >> pay it out. Yep. Yep. I I agree with that. I remember a lawyer saying to me once, I have made a lot of money off men's principles >> because they felt that it was the wrong thing that someone was behaving in this way. And sometimes it's easy to write a check and make it go away.

34:19 So just to make sure that I heard this right. So at around 20 people 21 it was a a leadership like a management gap that you needed to fill and then when you got to about the 50 it was a systems gap that you needed to fill. systems and personnel because as you scale the people who are amazing in the early days are not necessarily right for the bigger business because they're kind of >> do everything like whereas you actually need structure and hierarchy to a certain extent and and it's a different type of business and it requires a different type of person >> and I I'm intrinsically massively loyal and so I often overpromote ated people over that time because they've been so good in the early days and you don't know what you don't know and so that turned out to be a mistake multiple times that I repeated and it's all right if someone's not you know it is all right someone's really good at a certain stage of a business like myself I'm not the person to run the business dayto-day I mean it's a bigger business I'm just not built that way >> and so it's about recognizing who the right people are at that right stage but often You don't know that if you've not been through it.

35:33 >> and so like you know we're both being part of entrepreneurs organization that's been one of the most beneficial things I did because you can learn from other people's stories and their experiences and their mistakes and that's saved me a lot of mistakes and it's also allowed me to confront my own mistakes. >> Yeah. And and on the people thing I think that the majority 80% let's call it of people want to actually do a good job. And so, if you subscribe to that line of thought, then that means there's probably not that many like bad people. And people talk about, you know, I've got a a hopeless team or a hopeless individual or whatever that might be. And, I often default to going, well, are they clear on what the outcomes are? is this, you know, are you helping them achieve what they want to achieve as well? And are you giving them regular feedback and some growth opportunities? Because if you're not doing those things, then you're probably doing the wrong thing by then. And there's also this age and stage thing which is really important that the person to help you get from 1 to 10 people may not be the right person to help you get from 10 to 100. because there fundamentally there's different facets that the business needs to be able to succeed as it as it goes through those phases and also some different approaches with things. You know, you can be a a startup scrappy hustler in the early days and be light on systems and light on formalizing things, but as that as you grow, that'll like kick you in the ass pretty hard.

36:56 >> Yeah. I've got a story around that. So, we got I don't know, we're 50 60 people, something like that. And we kept bringing these salespeople on paper were amazing and they kept failing and cost me hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I just thought we were bringing in crap salespeople. And I brought in a new sales manager became GM guy called Kyle. And he came in and he put in systems and process for the salespeople, calls to meetings like and and looked at all the different metrics and if they weren't hitting a metric in a certain stage, why weren't they not?

37:28 And all of a sudden, our sales people started working and producing results. And so I was setting them up for failure, the previous ones. and I was actually abdicating the responsibility to them to be successful when I wasn't actually giving them the tools and structure to be successful. >> and so that was a big learning and it cost me a lot of money. but you do you do need to give people the right tools and the right structure to be able to succeed in their role.

37:53 >> Y totally agree. >> Yeah. >> A sales manager said to me once many many years ago and I thought it was a beautiful way of articulating it. When you've got sales people, there's only really three levers that they have. It's the volume of calls that they're making, the direction of those calls, so who are they calling, and the quality of the conversation that they're having with people. Work out which one of those things is going wrong, and then focus like hell on that. And if they can grow that thing, then they will succeed and continue to grow all of those things and they'll get themselves in the right direction. But people get fixated on one lever or they they lack clarity on what the right kind of mental model to take into those conversations is. I found that super helpful. A quick one while I've got you. You've probably listened to every business podcast going, this one obviously included, and the biggest calls in your business still feel super hard and are yours to make alone. Talking to founders in exactly the spot, what I've worked out is that more content just won't fix this problem. What you need is frameworks that work in a room of people going through the same journey. That's the comma club. There's 50 founding places and when they're gone the founding rate goes up with them. Please head to joshhconry.com to learn more. So this is a conversation a show about exits.

39:08 and so I know that you've gone through a journey of bringing external shareholders onto the business but you've also had some deli around that space. So let's talk about those two things separately. So you've sold some equity. how did that come about and what was the journey like for you? >> So it was an interesting one. So in 2014, I think I sold 35% of the business to a guy called Tony Falenstein and another guy called Ian Malcolm. And so a year before that I bought a house and I had to pay extra to the bank for a low equity premium. I had like a 10 less than 10% deposit and then I sold in 2014. I brought a check in. I paid my entire mortgage. and that was a good feeling, you know.

39:52 Yeah. but I sold to Tony and I was it was an interesting kind of negotiation. So I got asked Ian's my accountant. Tony was someone I'd met who introduced me to EO and has been really u Yeah. And I think he's been on the show. >> He has. >> and they put an offer to me and I went and counter offered and they said yes. And within two weeks I had the money in my bank. and made me think I probably didn't counter offer high enough because they said yes. albeit I think they overpaid at that time.

40:24 but you know trust is a big thing online and so you know I was always going to work my best to give them the best business and they probably had more in dividends over the years than they paid. So that's all worked out. >> Yeah, I I feel all right about that. but we've acquired businesses and we've gone through abortive sale processes and so >> sale of the agency >> sale of the agency which you I could have retired if you I was I was looking at my retirement thinking sit on the beach doing these different things but they fell over.

40:56 >> Why why did they fall over? What happened? So one before COVID pretty much everything was agreed sale and purchase agreement was done >> backwards and forwards across the tasine quite >> regularly. well so this was we were dealing with a company I can't say who they are because of NDAs but they were they had operations in New Zealand Australia and around the world but they pulled out of Australia and New Zealand at the beginning co when we were close to literally signing the thing and so they no longer were in this market. co happened and that was it had had like two sides. So firstly it was really stressful at the beginning. You know we had all these customers saying we can't afford to pay you and pay our staff and I always believe do the right thing and so I said basically you know they're in contracts but I'm not going to hold you to contract. Look just stop. We'll we'll we actually carry on for a lot of them and doing the work but you know you're talking 300k a month approximately of Paul's revenue. Wow.

42:08 and I still had my team and I was looking at potentially redundancies and things and funny enough the EO group we we met every week and we talked through that stuff. But the other side was when we did come out of that the business grew massively. There was the regional business partner money that came into the economy for suppliers and we made a few hundred grand through that and and really the customers a lot of the customers who we had behaved in that way came back and came back stronger >> and so the business grew as a result of that and so we had I mean I actually remember thinking that if everything went wrong and it you I had to close the business would I change everything probably not it's been a good ride you know and I could do something else.

42:55 And and that thought was actually going through my head because who knew what was going to happen and it was a huge amount of money that was paused of recurring revenue. had another potential sale process and multiple parties interested after and that was with international companies. Again, I won't say too much. One of them was several of them public listed. but that fell over due to various reasons such as AI coming in, the size of the New Zealand market, the niche and things like that. but again it would have been retirement money but I would have been looked in for many years and initially I was quite interested in the idea of running a much bigger company because I would have aggregated a few companies and I would have been in charge and I my ego told me oh it' be quite cool. I'd be with hindsight and the stuff I've gone through since or else I'd have been terrible at that like absolutely terrible and I'd have hated it.

44:01 >> Group CEO you mean that would have been and I'd have to report to an international board. I'd be managed there'd be all these layers that Yeah. but at the time my ego was telling me that really cool. Yeah. but I now know that it would have been terrible and it wouldn't have suited my personality. And so part of my strategy before the final exit will be to totally remove myself from the business. Like I've removed myself, but I'm still the jazz house. I'm still the face of the business. I still build out the PR, but yeah, if I sell five whatever years, I will remove myself. The other thought process is removing myself and creating like a PE kind of environment where I have multiple businesses under a banner and I obviously not paid salaries necessarily from them but I take dividends and and you build up a portfolio businesses under that almost like private equity >> which is because they're good cash flow businesses and >> you know ultimately if you're selling you know the the first deal wasn't as much of a multiple thought it was slightly less, but the second deal we were we were talking about starting at 7x and it could have been up to 10x depending on >> the growth in the revenue over that exit period.

45:22 and so you think if you're still growing it for someone else, you'd have paid you would have earned the money that you would have sold for probably by the time you exit almost. And if you're not involved dayto-day, there's probably value in actually retaining. And if you think there's growth left in the business, which I do, the other side is we bought a business. We bought a business which we spent several million on during COVID.

45:55 Now I mark that up a bit. and the learning there, some of it was forced, some of it was not forced. So, the business was one of the people that worked at the business didn't want a a vaccine and they were in an office that was a a service or shared office and they wouldn't allow them in if they hadn't had the vaccine. In my view, you're allowed you should be able to choose what you put in your body. I had the vaccine, but I don't want to penalize people based on their personal choice of what they put in their body.

46:30 But it meant they had to move in with us much quicker than we had anticipated. You want to keep them separate for a year and and do this. So that that wasn't as planned. But where we did go wrong is we didn't integrate the business and the cultures thing. We were a much bigger business. They were nine people. M >> the CEO founder was involved in far too much and the the team kind of wanted me involved in far too much and that wasn't well I don't want to be operationally involved and and so we didn't integrate it in the right way despite all the advice I'd had and all the recomseces had told me about the process. So, I had leadership that could have done a better job at integrating and didn't. but again, it rests with me cuz, you know, I'm the CEO.

47:26 >> so we we mapped up. Yeah, we still got a few of those clients. I think we paid 4x for the business. >> did a bit vendor financing. >> Mhm. yeah, but it taught me that buying a small business has got a very different mindset to a larger business and sometimes integrating those small owner operator businesses into a larger organization has its own cultural and operational difficulties and you often lose the the actual sort of like the heart of that business which is why you bought it. You know what makes them amazing? what makes them brilliant.

48:06 you lose that if you integrate too quickly and you don't pay attention to what the people and the the clients need. >> Yeah. this is an exit show and it's a number that I haven't quoted before but if you go digging around the studies and the research will show you that 75% of acquisitions fail to meet the value that was endeavored to be created from the acquisition in the first place. And you've hit the nail on the head.

48:36 the the number one mistake that people make is actually the integration. it it's making sure that this unique way of doing business, the client sets that you operate within the the culture and the values that they are true to how they view the world, how they approach conflict negotiation, all that sort of stuff is wrapped up inside a business and it's not that easily codified. And so what you're trying to do is to lift this organism because a business is an organism because it's intrinsically human at the end of the day. despite the fact that we put systems and measures and processes in place, there's still a whole bunch of humans in there. And one of the bits of work that I do with people is to help people go on the start of the automation journey. I'm not an automation expert, but help them go on the start of it. And what that means is you've got to identify and create the processes. And I always have a an image which I show which is I love a Vietnamese broth, the fur.

49:28 >> Yeah. >> And I go to the Tapuna markets on Good >> Sunday morning and they have the place that sells the fur there, right? And they have non you know grandma Vietnamese grandma who does the serving and they've got a dual system in place. In other words, there's no system. One system is the old fish and chip shop with the number that you rip from the book and then you write the thing down. The other system is her calling out an order.

49:49 >> And so every second order she'll say the number and then the other interspersed order will be the name of what it is, you know? So two beef fur and one pancake, right? So you know which one am I? Am I the number or am I the order? Right? And so it's absolute carnage and chaos. And I show this intentionally because when the implementation of the systems goes wrong, it's always a people problem. It's not the system thing that goes wrong. It's a people problem. And I think the integration piece is the same.

50:14 It's the people problem. And it's not that they're the problem. It's that whoever has been the architect and the person who's been responsible for bringing those things together has just messed something up along the way. And that's kind of essentially what you've said about the that acquisition. So thanks for your for years. I referred to it as foe, right? And nobody ever corrected me until my current partner Maggie like told me how it's really pronounced. And yeah, so for years I've been like >> same. Yeah, I used to call it a f. Yeah.

50:43 Yep. >> Yeah. It was only recently that I found out. >> I would recommend the tackle booty markets on a Sunday morning. If you've not been, you probably have been short. >> I've been, but I don't think I've had the or however you pronounce it. >> Oh, it's for from Saigons. They've got the food truck there. They used to have a place down by Spark Arena, but it got shut down with the floods and it's never reopened unfortunately. So, you've bought businesses, you've, sold a bit of your business, you've endeavored to sell your business, you're in the marketing space, and you've just kind of gone through a bit of a restyling, a bit of a tickle up because there has been no space probably more impacted through the advent of AI and the massive surge and rise of AI than marketing. So, let's talk through the mega trend. Firstly to start with what what's happening in AI in relation sorry what's happening in marketing in relation to AI >> so everything's changing but it's exciting time and I saw this very early like not long after chat GPT launched I could see what was going to happen to me it was it was so clear that this was going to be a fundamental shift in the way marketing operated and so what I did is I reached out to a guy called Ram Fishkin who started Moz which is He's probably one of the most wellknown if not the most well-known person in our industry. And I said, "Who in the world is the best at marketing and this AI component?" And he introduced me to a lady called Britney Müller who was she used to be head of data science at Hugging Face, which is an AI unicorn.

52:15 She was head of SEO at Moz. and I employed her for 18 months as a contractor to help me reimagine the business cuz you don't know what you don't know. And yeah, it was an expensive process and it was but reimagine the business because the way people search, the way people find stuff is fundamentally changing and I see it fundamentally changing again in the in the not too distant future. But I could see this and I have always had the philosophy I want to lead not follow. because like I share everything, share information all over the place and I don't mind our competitors consuming that cuz they're always following then >> and so I wanted to forge the path and I saw it early doors and we've created a new brand called the optimizers and and the concept behind that is kind of search everywhere optimization. It doesn't matter about the platform the or anything. It's kind of platform agnostic. You want to target customers where they choose to hang out online at a time they want to be spoken to and in a manner they want to be spoken to. And because audience have become fragmented like when I started Pure SEO, you got someone to number on Google and I get calls from customers saying, "Stop my phone ringing. We're getting too much business." Yeah. But it's changed. And I noticed over the years we end up like while I was out the business, we're overservicing customers. we're in in in effect paying them to be customers and they're still complaining and so it's a false economy. Nobody nobody wins and and so I realized that the whole model has to change and so but it's been hard because we had a sizable business and how do you there's an inertia to change and there's also I love change but a lot of people don't like change and getting my business to change for this new world was very difficult and has been pretty painful. We're now, you know, 80% of the way there and we're positioned as the market leaders in this field. In fact, I'm speaking at an event for the IB after this conversation.

54:22 but it was about understanding what the future might bring and being at the forefront of that because I didn't want to become a Kodak or a Blockbuster video and become irrelevant and but it's if you do think in the future and you do think the way I think, it's hard for people who don't think like that to see it and to understand it and they'll think you're nuts. until 6 months later, a year later, you things are happening. And so getting people on that journey has been difficult >> and and has actually resulted in, you know, mish hires, expense and various stuff happening. But ultimately, we got a much better robust business for the new world as a result of that process. I I chair a web analytics company and so really pretty aware of search behavior and how much it's changed and if we go back around about 10 years ago, Google's obviously the dominant search engine and now as it was then although our behavior's moved a little bit because of the the different bots that we're using for different jobs but pre us using GBT and Claude to conduct searches for us and make us recommendations about 10 years ago around about 95% of searches resulted in the clickthrough because Google wasn't that good at summarizing the information and every now and then we might get to page two but probably not as you'd know better than anyone. and then about 2 years ago we noted that people's behavior had changed and so about 65% of searches resulted in a clickth through.

56:06 Google was getting much much better at summarizing we were trusting the information that we were given. even looking at clicking at sponsored links it was all transparent. you know we can kind of you know navigate our way around. about 3 months ago that 65% resulting in the clickthrough had dropped to 35%. And Gemini sitting at the front end of using Google us using generative search engines to go through the process of conduct the research for us. And so the whole you know web world behavior it's just so fundamentally different.

56:39 So, I'm a business owner listening to this conversation between Leah and search and and this guy is having the chat with him. what would be the things that I should be thinking about and maybe doing in relation to my search and findability online? >> Cool. So, we've literally just finished, it'll be released next week, the first study of its kind in New Zealand of actual search behavior in LLMs. So we got people, we got three different phrases and we got people to put them into three different large language models and record the output >> and then we use two tracking tools to do the same.

57:18 >> So interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting cuz this won't come out till after I think. interesting results are >> three different engines we tested the crossover was about 60%. So it it means that each engine gives different outcomes. So helping back to search overware optimization, you've got to understand which large language model your target market uses or you have to do different practices to to optimize for the different large language models.

57:53 Another interesting finding was that all of them all of the engines 35% of the results for the power one was Frank Electric who stopped taking customers a year ago. and the only industry where there was total dominance across all the different large language models was accounting with zero. They got 100% of the number one. And I've never seen that category dominance talked about anywhere in the world. And so that in itself is interesting. And then there was loads of other things. There was difference between there's a significant difference between logged in and not logged in users.

58:34 >> Now these tools that do tracking which purport to show you how you're doing. Well, they don't have logged in users. They also track in a different way. Some use API, some don't. and so, you know, they're flawed in in many ways, albeit I do think there is value to them, but they're not, you know, the panacea. And the difference is when you do a search, it's deterministic. You do a search, you get an outcome, and it's the same. With large language models, you do a search and you can get a different outcome each time. It's probabilistic. And then that expands because we all do queries differently.

59:15 like I'm not going to ask the same especially with longer query strings it's more conversational I'm not going to do the same as you even if I'm looking for the same thing as you and so how do you measure that so attribution has gone back years and the increase in zero click search which is what you're referring to and we did a a study in it about a year ago across millions of data points where we saw across Australia and New Zealand around 30 to 35% were a click reduction to to websites And so you have to start thinking about a zero click strategy and how do you do attribution with that? It's very difficult but it needs to be part of the strategy if you want to be visible.

59:55 and and then you also need to think about where the future lies. You know what do large language models actually want to understand about your business and how do they work and how do they surface these things? And there's multiple ways. So one thing that's important is a business is seen as an entity by a large language model. And you know what you say is is is fairly important but it's also what everybody else says about your business. Now if there's inconsistencies like how does a business know that? I mean how does a large language model know that? what customers say on Reddit or or wherever has a potentially disproportionate impact on how you appear. And so the trust layer is massively important in large angle but then also the brand building layer cuz when we go to the future there's going to be agentic commerce and what that means is a large angles or a bot will do the search make the comparison and offer you the outcome before you've even looked at anything. So you're not visiting a website you're not comparing products you're just being presented with something to buy. So, an example might be, I want a pair of Nike Air Maxes. I want to spend less than 200 and I want to them delivered Friday. They turn up on Friday once you've said okay. And during that instance, there's some there's several important points. So, a brand needs to have their data right. They need to have pricing. They need to have returns policy. They need to have privacy. They need all that stuff and it needs to be quick. So, the large dangle because there's no emotion there. It's but then the other thing is I ask for Nike, right? And so building the brand is really important because if you think I want dishwasher powder, then it's commoditized and and often it's going to be you know the lowest price point.

61:51 So how do you differentiate? You build your brand. If you say I want pcil in that query, it's not going to look for the generic. It's going to look for p personal. And so building that brand is really important in that layer. But the trust is probably the most important thing. Having accurate price, having doing what you say you're going to do because if you think if there mistakes happen and that impacts reputation then the large language models are less likely to then choose you in future. And so that trust layer is critical and building that brand is critical. having the data clean and properly formatted is critical and very few businesses actually in New Zealand are thinking that way whereas internationally there are lots of businesses like I speak to the top marketers in the US all the time and a lot of the US are are much further ahead in that regard and you know we're working with a bunch of corporates and helping them in the space but it's only the ones that actually have the foresight and the understanding of what needs to happen so that they're not left behind. The other side is the challenger brands are more open to it and that gives them an opportunity. So going back to a study I did, none of the banks were number one for the Kiwis Saver provider yet they've got the largest section of the market. None of the big electricity companies as their own brand were top for the electricity things. And then you look internationally and look at finance, right? Disproportionately the new kind of finance companies, you know, the online banks and and these appearing these large language models as viable options over the big incumbents.

63:38 And so we might see a shift in these big incumbents being displaced as we move because they're not acting fast enough and they're not seeing the impact it's going to have on their businesses. And so it's a really interesting time and it's changing all the time. And so that's why we focus, we're very very focused on this area because if you start doing loads of things, you can't be the best at something. And you know, even with our clients, we have to put in QBRS, quarterly business reviews because things change. You need to look at what's happened. You need to look at what's going to happen and prioritize by impact. so it's an interesting world.

64:19 >> Yeah. Yeah. I love the discussion around brand. And Jeremy Moon who I had on the show recently, I'll paraphrase him, said that the you take the lowest average price in the market that you're competing in for whatever that product is. And then the delta between that and what you're endeavoring to price your premium product at. The thing that sits in the gap there is brand. And it's interesting. I studied marketing a long time ago and in the 1990s and brand was all powerful, all important pre- internet days, right? And so it was the thing that you called first to mind, the perception that you had of that thing, what it might be worth, the trust that you had in that brand. And so radio, billboard, display, all these, you know, different forms of kind of advertising with the way that you got yourself there, plus a great quality product at the end of it.

65:08 Then the internet came along and all of a sudden there's all these upstart competitors that had slick marketing, slick presentation. you know, overnight successes, whatever it might be, weird names. and so the value of these big brands that we studied, IBM, Coca-Cola, and Ford with case studies that we that we went through just got massively impacted and eroded except for Coca-Cola actually. and so we're now back in that place again of like 1980s marketing of being able to understand, articulate, and position your brand relative to the people that you serve for the problems that they have. And if you get that wrong in the next couple of years, you're just going to get eroded to all hell because whatever you did before, whatever you're doing today that's working won't work in two years time. And what you did a year ago sure as hell isn't working that well today. to such a rapidly rapidly changing world. So there's a report out is it available on your website is that >> it will be out next week and it will be available absolutely. but brand's really interesting because it's multifaceted. It's not just the company getting out their jazz hands. It's also the quality and the way that you deal with complaints and customers and it's also thinking about brand in context of these large language models because traditional branding doesn't necessarily consider these things and so they don't get the advantage of what they could and so it needs to be incorporated into the strategy to get in sources for large language models or to structure things in the correct manner. that they can be consumed by large language models and I'm speaking to a big international business at the moment who divested a big part of their business to a large bank. Now, one of the issues that they have is they got websites all over the world. They're enormous. but some of the websites still talk about as if it's a product that Wikipedia hasn't necessarily been updated everywhere. And so you've got inconsistency of what that business is and what it cons constitutes of. And so large language models as I said they build an entity where if there's inconsistency in the entity that has ramifications for visibility for brand for a lot but a lot of people wouldn't think about that. And so it becomes a lot more complex than just the traditional brand building. And and one of the issues I also have with brand building is often people who run the brand things don't necessarily think about commercial impact.

67:47 >> And I think brand building needs I think all marketing needs to be tied into commercials. and I think that's I'm chatting with a bunch of CMOs and a lot of these CMOs actually have that thought process but it per it doesn't seem to permeate lower levels but margins are important. you know profitability like if we do this big brand thing and it brings in loads of customers as a loss leader are we cannibalizing existing people you can't look at things in isolation without understanding the commercial ramifications cannibalization like new customer acquisition loss leaders like all these things need to actually be considered because you can do brand things that are both commercially acceptable and build the brand. And a lot of people just think, oh, we did this thing, got lots of attention, like we've done a really good job. But that's half the picture in my opinion.

68:49 >> Yeah, it's interesting. I say that the modern marketing lead role in an organization is probably the hardest single job in that business. And I compare it to the HR manager back in the about the early naughties like 2005 2010 something in that sort of region and it was before we had L & D split off people in culture health and safety then they're all specialist roles so that one person used to have to do all these different things and I reckon we'll look forward in about 3 or four years time and they'll have all these specialist channels head of acquisition head of customer care head of brand perception all these different things that exist in the world and I don't think that the modern marketer does themselves any favors because they say to the CEO of company X that yeah I can totally I'm I'm across acquisition search content all these things and you bloody will not because you can't be right it's like when I studied marketing there was the five Ps of marketing product price positioning whatever they were it went to seven after a couple of years now I joke about it being the 21 Ps of marketing it's partially true it's partially a joke but it's it's I think The construct I'm endeavoring to get across here is that it's complex. It's the whole vaua world, you know, volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. And that's very much what you're dealing with in marketing. So, talk to the experts.

70:09 >> Yeah. Well, the the other side of that is where does AI sit? Is it with it? Is it with marketing? Is it because marketing like it's a massive facet of marketing yet often it sits with it and there's going to be potentially roadblocks to to things especially larger organizations we're seeing a lot of you know things getting held up by it because they're not prioritized for marketing but so where does AI sit in a business you know who who man who actually looks after it and who makes those decisions and you know if it's a marketing manager wants something they're not going to have the power necessarily to enact things and so it needs to often come from the CMO or the CEO >> as a businesswide directive but then the licenses will sit with it the security will sit with it >> so it's going to be a complex beast to actually integrate into a business and it's you know marketers stuck in the middle a little bit but I think the ones that will win out marketers that will out are ones that see AI as a tool, don't delegate their thought process to it and embrace it and test it and learn it, but also tie that in with a commercial side. Yeah, to me that's gold from a business owner perspective. If you're a marketer and you actually look at the commercial outcomes and not just campaign specific, look at the cannibalization, look at the impact on margins and all these different things.

71:42 I mean, that would be gold, but it's quite hard to find. >> Yeah. So, if people like the thread of this conversation, do they go to the optimizers website or to pure SEO? Optimizers >> optimizers optimizers.com with an S. >> Y >> yeah, it's interesting how we got the name right. So, in 2014, we won an award called the David Awards. and as part of that, we got the front page of New Zealand Business Magazine and it put us as the optimizers and it had us like superhero stuff. and three or four years ago, I actually ended up buying New Zealand Business magazine. I also have helped the David Awards survive and flourish over the years. And and then it was we we needed a new name, something that fitted the brand and fitted the legacy, but finding a com is so hard, >> right? And so we could get the optimizers.com because in the US they use S and we're using an S >> and so it just felt like it it tied in with so much about the business and we are we're optimizing our own business.

72:52 we're optimizing for multiple platforms and you know search everywhere optimization which is how I look at it again optimization so it just fitted with the brand going forward but I got a lot of push back from people not liking the brand before I launched it like when you ask people's opinion >> so yeah it was interesting >> I love it Richard Conway there's an alternate Richard Conway who lives in a different universe to this one and he has a deeply satisfying career that's not the path of the entrepreor reneur that's focused on marketing outcomes.

73:25 what is that career path? What does that alternate Richard Conway do? >> I'd love to have been a writer. I love writing. I love words. I love language. >> fiction or non? >> probably fiction. I'm actually about 30,000 words through a fiction book which I've written for fun like not necessarily for public consumption but it's take yeah it's a it's a thing that I dip into sometimes and come out but I love words I love language I've always read a lot so that I'm always singing but yeah singer as well but I'm probably not good enough my dad was a singer but yeah sort of songs a writer my dad was a pop singer of these amazing Yeah.

74:07 >> Mhm. Cool. >> Yeah. >> a shared interest, one of many. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Super grateful for you taking the time and fascinated to see how marketing plays out, how the AI thing influences and best of luck with the the rebranding of the optimizers. >> Thanks for having me. It's been fun. >> Pleasure. >> Cheers, man. >> Thanks so much for listening to the show. If you've gotten this far, I reckon you've probably enjoyed it. And there's more available for you in the form of my book two commas. It's available on my website joshhcomry.com.

74:39 I've done an audible version which is on amazon.com and there's a Kindle one kicking around on either of those resources as well. I've had some wonderful unsolicited feedback from early readers. They describe it as being punchy, clear, helpful, and actionable. What it's not is a guide on how to sell your company. You can go to chat GPT for that. It's more insightful, experiential-based, and a bit of a blend of psychology, philosophy, and what it takes to build something meaningful and what all that means afterwards. Thanks so much for listening, and I hope you grab yourself a copy.