How to Build the Perfect Pitch Deck ft. Zerin & Abhinav | How VCs Think Episode 4

0:00 a perfect pitch deck template. A deck will not help you close the deal. A deck's purpose is to get you a next more serious meeting. >> When you say exciting or like the story has to be exciting, do you also mean that the design has to be exciting? Like is that also something that you look into or like a shoddy deck but with good storytelling is good enough? >> One of the biggest skills of a pitch deck is storytelling is what you do not say.

0:25 >> But everyone can't afford you, and your team. >> flat-out looked at me and said cannot Like if you're a bodybuilder and you have great calves, you show your calves. If it's your biceps, you show your biceps. >> You got it. >> I'm juxtaposing entrepreneurs and comedians. I always say entrepreneurs are delusional. So in classic storytelling, nobody likes a flatline story. You know, hero goes through a lot of comes up or he goes up, comes down. So people like to see that.

0:50 >> If you're profitable and doing well, all VCs will 100% remember that. So you don't need to call back to that. >> >> Zarin Rahman of Indigo Edge, Abhinav Nag of Rain matter. This is how VCs think. Thank you so much for joining us. What we're going to be doing today is creating what we hope will be a perfect pitch deck that founders can use. And I think we have a perfect combination over here. You are an investment banker. You help startups craft narratives.

1:28 And you are a patient capital investor, right? So a very different approach to investing. So I think these two POVs will be fantastic for this episode, and well, hopefully we'll have a lot of fun. Right? So right into it, the first question is is there a perfect pitch deck template? What goes into it? >> I don't think any pitch deck is perfect, but there are some elements which are essential. Yeah, most investors won't have time. so, they need to answer questions very quickly to decide, do I invest more time in this? So, typically, most investors really want to know what's the problem being solved?

2:09 >> Mhm. >> What is this team's unique right to win if they're solving this problem? Why is it so relevant now? And if you solve all of this successfully, how big of an outcome is it going to be? So, these basic building blocks need to be there in any financial ask from a startup. >> So, you typically see these pitch deck templates from Sequoia and Y Combinator, which are famous, right? And they say 10 slides, 15 slides, not more than that.

2:39 These are the specific questions. I think you mentioned four questions now >> Four four four what I Beyond that, you have the business model, unit economics, the momentum. >> we were to list it down, sir, right? And Abhinav chipping as well, right? If you were to list it down, start from scratch, right? What would your first slide typically be? And then just run us through one by one what it would potentially look like. And then we'll try and dive into each broad idea specifically.

3:03 >> Sure. >> I think one of the first things should be what's the problem that you're trying to solve, right? Because the thing is, most investors now are experienced enough that they intellectually understand what the larger problem is. But you need to phrase it really well because that sort of grabs the attention. Once somebody understands what's the problem that you're solving for, then intuitively in their head they will try to look for solutions that they've come across, etc. And then that'll help them go through the deck very comfortably and easily. So, first of all, you should identify the problem that you're solving for.

3:32 >> So, I'm imagining first slide, one singular statement that basically tells Yeah, someone who's looking at it what exactly the problem is being solved, right? >> Okay. >> So, usually, in the opening slide, it might or even the header slide might say, "We are like how you spoke about in our pre-conversation about fishmongers. >> Mhm. >> we are the Amul of fish. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, that like you start boxing it somewhere and you're interested.

4:00 >> Okay. >> Yeah. but for me like the first slide I always tell build credibility very fast. >> Okay. >> get people excited very fast. >> Do you think that means talk about pedigree or like >> So, in your own context >> Mhm. >> what is the best thing about you? Is it your revenue momentum or is it the kind of client logos you have? Or is it the quality of I sold three companies before this.

4:27 >> Mhm. >> Whatever it is put that best thing out there so that the investor is like leaning forward, okay, tell me more. >> Okay. So, the first slide has to be about either what problem you're solving or second, why is it your right to win? >> >> So, for me like that the like I take that specific context and say I have to excite. >> Okay. >> Yeah, now >> But doesn't that also excite you like when like the Amul of >> Yeah, so that's that's a good example of hey, Amul's so big.

5:00 >> Yeah. >> Fish is a big protein thing and it's not solved, so it excites. >> Right. >> Yeah. So, but if let's say today if somebody says I'm building an LLM. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and you start with that. You might just turn off the investor with the opening slide. So, Shekhar Karani at Accel we were making a deck. >> Mhm. >> So, when sitting with him I when you sit with investors who've been there, done it >> Mhm.

5:31 >> they they get hit so many times like the number of emails so, attention span is very very less. So, in that movie, Jerry Maguire, they say you had me at hello. You almost have to cast the investor in the first 200 seconds. So, your first slide in your context, what's the most exciting thing about it? It could be we are India's or we're the world. For example, a deal I'm doing from our fund in the it's the third deal we're doing.

6:02 they are probably the world's largest compressed biogas manufacturer. Okay, this is one angle. they can make our country's import bill on gas go away completely. Now, I can start with both these statements. Now, I'll sit and think which really excites the investor, depending on who the audience is. But, once I made that statement, the investor like tell me more. >> So, that's the first slide. First slide is out of the way. What comes next?

6:34 >> So, like you said the then you need to get set the basics right. The problem statement, what problem are you solving or what exactly is your value prop? Oh, yeah. Don't do too much jazz. >> Mhm. >> Make sure they have understood it. So, people try to abstract this and story tell out here. Sometimes, the investor doesn't know what exactly you're doing. And you go through the whole seven eight slides and he comes back and says, "So, can you please again explain what are you doing?"

6:59 >> So, no story. Just straight to the point. No problem. >> Yeah, just make sure the problem you're solving is clearly understood. >> Okay. >> Yeah, and over here you can dumb it down. No problem. It can be like for example, I mean I'm I don't know about the company Fish Monger, but it is like we ensure that people get great fish at their home. >> Mhm. >> that's the problem. >> Right. >> Yeah, so that problem statement can be dumped down in a very simple way.

7:31 Layers of emotional resonance in the problem statement without making sure without losing I mean if you lose the investor by trying to tell a story around there, you it's not a good thing. So, in in that particular slide parameters make sure the person understands the problem statement. >> Mhm. >> Emotional resonance on the problem statement is nice to have. >> Okay. And then I'm assuming after problem comes solution immediately. >> The problem and solution come together.

8:01 >> Invariably. >> Mhm. >> But I think there's no there's no fixed template as to what the first slide should be, right? It sort of depends on the nature of your business. Okay. Sometimes the problem is so large that everybody knows you might not want to state it, but then you have to, let's say, portray what do you do? Are you the biggest at something? Are you the best at something? Have you been profitable? Stuff like that. It's so it all You have to play to the strength of your business. I think it'll be a little hard to generalize here. You should obviously cover your business model, right? And one of the things is that has to be very simple.

8:35 so you can talk about your business model in 10 slides as well. You can You want to put it out there completely because founders sometimes feel that I only have this one opportunity. I need to go through my business model in depth. But what you could do is respect the other person's time as they're in the saying most of them are very busy here. What you do is you can probably bring it out in a very simple statement that this is what I built.

8:56 >> Mhm. >> Why X pays me Z amount of money and Y is the outcome. Now, within that sentence a lot of things are hidden, right? You can figure out what the gross margins look like. You can figure out what your intended consumers are like. And then you sort of build from there. So, I think one should not spend too much time on the business model in the first pitch, right? Because what you need to understand a deck will not help you close a deal. A deck's purpose is to get you a next more serious meeting. That's where you can delve deeper. So, it's very very I think I advise people to keep it very simple.

9:31 You know, respect the other person's time. >> Got it. >> So, I'm in agreement with most of what I think when you use a deck >> Yeah. >> What is the call to action needs to be very very clear. So the call to action is get to the next meeting where they're excited to dive deeper. So at a business model you stick to the basics. Like after you explained the problem statement, there are three parts you can go in my view. Why now? Why is this problem so relevant now?

9:57 Or why are we the best team to solve this problem? And for me that's a custom call depending on which is more attractive. If I feel the team's right to win in this problem is so much greater. Like for example, when Zoom would have been pitching I don't think they could have said anything about why now. There were enough solutions around them. Yeah. So how did they out execute or out product everyone must have come from the life experience of why us.

10:28 So you need to be aware of what your spikes are when you're pitching. Once you get past that then you go into things like momentum, business model {slash} unit economics and wherever you want to dive deeper. And usually every investor will take a different path after the first two to four minutes where depending on personality type some will go into the >> >> the depth of the team, some will go into what's the macro, how are you competing and so on. So you got to let it flow.

11:03 Beyond the sticking to a I will tell the story in this particular manner is not a good. So if you are if your slide on on competition is last but the investor jumps in so you need to flow with that. >> But you're going to have to need a slide on competition. Because the why now and the why us I'm assuming also ties into the competitive landscape. >> Yes. >> And also is there a way to then tell a story about competition? Because one thing that I've heard is that a lot of people just start listing features they have versus what their competitors potentially have, right? And it just becomes a feature wise, description. Is there a better way to actually talk to customers because sorry, talk to the VC?

11:43 because at the end of the day, VCs are also worried about clutter in an industry, right? Who else are you competing with? How do you break that clutter and tell the VC, "Hey, listen, we are the best at what we're doing. This is the why now, why us." Is there a framework that you think for the competitive landscape that people can use? >> So, let me just tell you how I go about it. Again, framework is difficult because the industry, each industry is different.

12:07 So, I start thinking what's a critical success factor for somebody to succeed in this journey. So, once that success factor in my head is clear, then I have to stack competition against those critical success factors. >> Right. >> Yeah, so so, there is a framework. Identify what are the capabilities needed to succeed in this journey. And how do you stack vis-a-vis competition on those factors? And they could typically be even input metrics or output metrics. When I say output metrics is like if I say the ability to close customers >> Mhm.

12:42 >> fast is very critical in this industry. The output metrics will be, number of customers closed in X amount of time. I might stack that up against competition and say this is critical here. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, so I choose, I mean, I have a narrative around what's critical to succeed. >> Okay. >> Then I try to stack the variables around that. But it's not always easy to find those variables in, private companies. >> So, essentially what you're trying to say is that there are a few critical things, but you can't generalize it because every sector is different, right? So, maybe if you could walk us through if you're looking at a D2C deck, what are some things that you think should necessarily be there and that would probably help folks understand the sector better, yeah.

13:24 >> So, for deep tech, at least from what I understand now, the why now is the most important part. So, the vision is usually not the problem. The founders who actually venture out into deep tech and have spent a lot of time have a have a certain degree of competence, otherwise they could not even start building in this. So, the why now part is the most important and because you also have to take care of the fund cycles.

13:44 You also have So, the idea the risk there is mostly timing and not vision and not the product. You could build an excellent product today, but does the market really need it? >> Was the market ready for >> Is the market ready for >> Market might need it at some point, but >> at some point. But then you also have to be cognizant of the fact that you're going to raise money for an X number of years.

14:02 >> Mhm. >> Now, you have to build the business in X number of years and you have to give your VCs an exit, etc. But that is the most important thing I feel in a deep tech deck. >> Is the pitch to you or do you look at the why now slightly differently? Where you don't want it to be a why now that's immediate, but if you see it changing in the next few years, you're still okay with it.

14:22 >> See, I think we are a little more liberal with the why now because of the approach that we take it. Because we're investing with a 15-20 year horizon. Inherently, sometimes we understand that maybe the why now will happen 3 years later. But I also have to keep in mind that Rain matter cannot be the only fund supporting these startups, right? So, for example, we've put money in water. >> Mhm. >> Inherently, everybody understands that the price of water is going up. At some point of time will be a great time to build businesses in water.

14:48 >> Right. >> Now, when that why now arrives, I don't really know. >> Mhm. >> But today we could support some of the startups saying that okay, in maybe in the next 5 years there will be a viable business model, but you need to be alive till then. >> Okay. >> So, then we'll put in the money because I we also have to think about See, we can't we can't do anything on our own, right? You need other people, other funds with different expertise, etc. So, patient capital is one, but we also have to align ourselves with all kinds of capital there because there's something that everybody brings on the table.

15:16 >> Got it. So, as someone who's crafting pitch decks, so this is what what wanted to ask you. And helping startups do it and pitch to other VCs as well. does who you're pitching to matter when you're kind of fine-tuning the pitch deck for them because if Rainmatter, for example, is a patient capital allocator, you might be okay not doubling down on the why now, right? More on the why us. But for someone else, the why now also becomes equally important. So when you're crafting those narratives, do you actually evaluate who the pitch deck is for?

15:48 >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> I think that's something you do all the time in your life, right? Like the question that you're asking us is because the audience is young entrepreneurs out there. So you're also curated accordingly. So if I have to pitch or he has to pitch and we figure that's a founder also have to do a lot of homework. So then obviously some tweaks you'll have to make. >> So like when you say exciting or like the story has to be exciting, do you also mean that the design has to be exciting?

16:14 Like is that also something that you look into or like a shoddy deck but with good storytelling is good enough? >> You know, I've been told some stories here about >> Yeah, like you're excited. >> Some of her best investments have come from the worst decks you've seen. The thing with your deck is that it's the first impression that you create and the problem in life is that you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

16:38 >> Absolutely. >> So if your deck is really cluttered, then that sort of gives you an insight into the founder's mind that you know, he's a his thoughts are all over the place. Does he really understand what he's doing, etc. But a cluttered deck with a good story and a good business is any day better than a beautiful deck with no substance. >> But that can only happen once they get the meeting with you and in the same room with you, right?

16:59 >> Mhm. >> Before that, to excite you, if they sent you a deck with 28 slides, which I do want to get into how many slides are enough, how many slides are too many, but if they're sending you something that looks 30 slides too cluttered. >> Mhm. >> personally would they get a meeting with you? >> Yeah, personally I have a legal background, right? So all my life, I've been accustomed to reading lots of pages. So, for me, that's okay. And as a fund which talks about patient capital, I think we also need to be a little patient. Now, we need to exhibit patience. Patience is a scarce commodity, of course. But, it depends to who you're pitching, right? Let's say if you're pitching to somebody who is looking at a sector specifically, then you can maybe take the leeway of having a larger deck because you sort of understand that this person has some idea about this sector. But, if you're generally sending it out, then the same thing. Your deck should ideally just be a tool for you to get into that room and get into that meeting.

17:51 That's what I feel. >> Got it. >> What about you, Zarin? Do you Do you look at the aesthetic of the deck as well, or >> So, let me take a step back and give you a view of how I look at founders. >> Okay. >> There are typically two kinds of founders. The guys who get things done >> Mhm. >> and people who tell great stories. >> Okay. >> And then there is some phenomenal founders who do both.

18:13 And they're a rare breed. Typically, businesses which need a lot of capital, like let's say consumer tech plays or winner-take-all plays, you need the story teller prototype because you need to keep raising capital and capital becomes the moat to win that space. Now, let's say you're manufacturing stents or things like that, and the country needs a lot of stents, and over there, the execution, what you've done till date, is it takes more prominence. So, in that particular context, if the deck is below a design threshold and so on, but execution really matters, then you, like he said, you're patient, and in a way, that's where alpha as an investor comes.

19:00 And a lot of people were lazy and didn't go through the actual numbers because the cover of the book was not good. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. But, in certain places where you need to be raising capital, if the cover of the book is not good, it is a leading indicator of your founders not going to be able to raise capital in the capital. So, that goes back to the critical success factor of that industry. Ability to raise capital is critical.

19:23 Not presenting or storytelling well is a leading indicator of your your investment is either going to has to be sold or is going to be behind the race. >> Has someone ever pitched to you without a deck and you've still put money in them? >> Absolutely. >> Many times, actually. >> You guys have to tell us about this because Yeah, like how >> I'm coming to you. I have a startup idea. Listen, Abhinav, listen to me.

19:45 See, I don't have a deck. How are you >> The best founders who are most aware of, you know, what's good in their business, etc., they don't really need a deck. Like some of the best founders, you can get them in the room and they'll talk to you about 1 hour, then they will give out everything about that startup. Now, getting in that room is a question that we need to figure out. But a lot of time See, deck, I feel once that meeting happens, right, then it becomes a placeholder. It's a way to guide the conversation because you have a limited amount of time. So, it sort of brings both the investor and the founder on track. Like, "Sure, listen, we have 30 35 minutes.

20:19 Let's talk about the deck." And via the deck, maybe the other conversations can follow later. But I'm sure there are many founders who don't really need a pitch deck. >> But can I counter that? One school of thought is that this it's it's a verbal presentation. It might sound like funny like a conversation, but at the end of the day, one, you're getting so many emails, you're listening to a lot of pitches. There's a lot happening. Plus, you might be thinking about the next meeting you have to attend and all of that as well, right?

20:45 it's easier for a founder to remain in the VC's orbit if visually they're able to really tell that story and there's a visual element in the deck or visual element in the entire story that remains with the VC who's listening to them. More than the words, it's the the element the visual element that really stays with the VC. Do you not believe that? Often, I mean, I understand that you might need it a lot of time, but you also have to understand the power of words, right? Sometimes words will create a beautiful picture that no visual element can, right? You will leave something to imagination. You You get that idea in the head. Of course, once you progress further, you'll have to bring out certain aspects of your business, and probably there you might need a deck.

21:31 >> Storytelling is a almost like a life skill. It helps you persuade and convince people. The pitch deck is some sort of an instance of the story you tell in a tangible form, which you can send out. Now, depending on the context, you use it like an aid. like when you're forced to use it, you use it. but if you can just tell the story in 15 minutes, and you usually have the person in 2 minutes.

21:59 This is who I am. You don't don't you like for example, I went to the restroom, and those waterless urinals, there's a story out out there. >> You wrote it, right? >> Yeah. So, the story is like 14 families will benefit from using this. So, there is some emotion like in seven eight lines I mean, three lines I think the story is being said. >> Correct. >> Enough for me to be excited. So, they haven't spoken it's like a mini pitch deck out there.

22:28 >> But there's a visual element to that, right? There's a scorched land. There's I think a water tanker. That is what really grabs you. >> So, so you're absolutely right. So, because they're not there to tell the story, that mini pitch deck or visual thing has left a mark on me. >> Mhm. >> If they were here to tell the story, they could do it without that. >> Is there a different sort of pitch deck for seed stage company versus a series A company versus a later stage company? How does that change?

22:56 >> See, I think you can have the bare-bones skeleton as the same, those eight 10 slides, yeah. But the weightage keeps on changing, right? Let's say early stage, a lot of weightage has to be given to the story, right to win, etc. >> Right. >> Now, as you keep moving >> Yeah, the team. >> Right. >> As you >> And that's a part of the right to win. >> As you keep growing further, you can't rely on the story. The burden of proof of your business model slides, your revenue slides, your margin profile, etc. Those start to increase. You could have the same template essentially.

23:25 >> Mhm. >> But, how important which part of the slide then is that that keeps on changing. >> So, you've been raising capital for this company called Supertails. >> Right. >> Supertails, everything to do with pets. >> Yes. >> they want to be there. >> I know that. >> Yeah. So, So, I've seen their first pitch deck which they raised capital. It's a very beautiful deck. emotional emotionally resonating. >> Yeah. >> they've taken the positioning that you know, pet parents, we're all pet parents, and we solve for all pet parents.

24:00 >> Mhm. >> It's a very emotional story. Hardly any data. and so on. Then, we helped them raise the next round. >> Mhm. >> So, then like how Negi said, retention codes, how many people reorder, what's literally your right to win, post-sale engagement, post-sale engagement, how often do they come back, in how many days do they reorder. All these metrics start telling the larger story of what's working for us. As you grow that the importance of data starts growing. Now, within those decks also, >> Mhm.

24:35 >> some people some founders just put story like traction, then they slap a big retention table XY axis, >> Mhm. >> and the investor look at it. >> Mhm. >> Some smart investors will like enlarge it and say, "Okay, month seven retention is 26%." >> Mhm. >> okay, the stacks up reasonably well, and they interpret it. According to me when you tell the story the heading should say unlike other brands who have X percentage our M10 retention is outstanding. So you are messaging on top straight away what you're trying to tell through the data. So if if you typically put a lot of data you know anchor towards convenience of the story around it and the interpretation being told to the investor then making them real time interpret all of that data.

25:30 And secondly you put data on there don't put any data like in a meeting room somebody will go into some data and a 45 minute meeting might be 20 minutes so why your table is wrong. So be very careful with what you put. So I keep saying less is more. Every element you put in have a reason why you put it and I've seen in many meetings like somebody who put that thing in like you know why is that there?

25:55 Like somebody stabbed at it. >> Everything has to be intentional. Should not be loaded with a lot of data and needs to have a storytelling arc throughout even as the company scales. Numbers become more important but there has to be a story behind it. Okay. >> Yeah so so on this for example if you say why us. Instead of saying why us the heading of the slide might be we've been meditating it meditating in Himalayas for last 15 years.

26:24 And that's why we're building Karma app or whatever it is. So even in that why us your actual heading is different and specific to you. So get So typically what I like to do is write all the headings and connect it and just read out those 10 lines and ask myself you know how does how do those 10 headings sound? Then within the headings I look at what are the elements which re-amplify my main heading. >> Mhm.

26:53 >> And that typically is just resonance and I try to keep it to three to five elements. so, like you put nine or 10 data points, people then there's a fatigue to go into it. >> Mhm. >> So, if I say we are growing three three X, then I'll show March 25 revenues versus March this thing. I mean, I'll show one crore was three crore. EBITDA over a burn is a So, I show the three most important elements to resonate what I'm saying at the top.

27:24 >> Mhm. >> So, even why us, why now will be stories. Okay, it's like I might say everything is consumed within AI app, consumer AI app today in the why now. >> Mhm. >> And then the elements around what's happening today will be the stories. I won't say why now at the top in the heading and then people often do that. This is a template, so let me put all the headings, then I put stuff there.

27:53 So, make your story interesting to read like slide to slide with good connectors. >> Got it. >> So, so, from what I get of this, headers are supremely important to you, but don't founders, I'm just thinking out loud here, don't founders use the standard headings because they're used to a certain template and because they believe that VCs would want it to be structured in that manner as well because otherwise you're telling a story and all VCs may not be able to >> suddenly connect to what this is the >> Mhm.

28:22 >> right to win or whatever, right? And they might still end up going back and thinking, what was their right to win, right? Do you not? >> Well, VCs are pretty smart people, so and everyone puts why now versus hey, this is what's happening in the in your world. You start emotionally resonating. So, you like reading that versus everyone's putting why now, why now, why now. so, that's my personal view. That doesn't bother you? >> You stand out but but eventually in process of doing this you don't cover those answers they're looking for then yeah you lose out so template sizing for me is 7 by 10 going a little different I mean you answer the questions they look for in the template but you make it more interesting is like 8 by 10.

29:08 >> Fair. So you have the answers but you're just fine-tuning it slightly differently. Have you ever looked at a why now and like how's their insight? You get tired of seeing seeing the same sort of headings? see the thing is founders also get these templates from somewhere right? Somebody has raised money. That template is out there. Then they'll see a pattern emerge right? Nobody looks at the decks who have not raised money. So there is a bias there. Like these are the headlines that should be there.

29:37 These are the headers that should be there. Now they'll come with that and I understand that you have to look at who your audience is. But at the end of the day you have to be intellectually and emotionally honest with yourself. Do you want to pitch with something that worked for somebody else? Because you're building a different business. Or do you want to maybe retain some of that? Maybe have a why now or maybe take a different approach. At the end of the day it really depends on who you are as a founder. And I personally feel like if it works for you great. Maybe you are building a business like that. But if you can bring something completely different you know give a beautiful insight etc. And just be honest about how you're building the business and why you're building the business.

30:16 >> So what Negi said one thing is really important. the authenticity or the like you have a pitch deck but you because somebody else made it for you. >> Yeah. >> And then you know you are like you know it's like your assembly pledge. I solemnly pledge that so you it almost becomes like you're reading the deck. I have this founder who was keeping on iterating his deck. Can ask what's happening? Like, we don't have time." He said, "You know, the deck doesn't talk to me or I don't talk to the deck.

30:47 There's some emotional connect missing." >> Yeah. >> So, that that authenticity or resonating with the deck and the story you're telling is important. Now, often founders are so used to telling the story in a particular way. >> Mhm. >> like, if you look at technocrat founders, they straight away get into why my product is the science and the chemistry of what they're doing. The how and why. That's how they're used to pitching and then that's what they like most about their business.

31:15 >> That is from a customer lens. Though, right? >> Yeah, but so they bring that to the investor meeting room. Like, there's a company which with sensors can sense the quality of water in a manufacturing process and then real-time intervene in making the manufacturing process more efficient. >> Right. >> The founder would straight away go in and first on the board you write coagulant, flocculant, specific. The investor's like, "My god, why am I sitting?" And the investor's intimidated. I don't understand anything about this. And typically, most investors, if you don't understand, they don't invest.

31:52 >> Yeah. >> And it took us a lot of time to retrain the founders saying, "Hey, all of this is important, but let's get the investor bought in first before you get into the how and why of things." And that connect between the story that investors try to tick these answers and how the founder naturally pitches sometimes is a transformative process. Got it. Yeah, so you can have the deck, but the guy goes and still tells some of the story. The deck and the story is not talking to each other.

32:23 >> But as a founder, I'm getting one shot, right? I'm in the room with you. I may not get another shot, so let me tell them everything I can about myself and my business. I have to have to get over that. And there's no other way. >> So, always say impact over exhaustedness. >> Okay. >> So, typically hard working honest execution driven founders >> Mhm. >> come with that thing. I would tell them the truth and everything.

32:47 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, that's the transformation that needs to happen. You need to tell them the most important things. And if they want to hear more, they're going to ask you. Eventually, I mean it's it's a dating process which eventually takes >> So, it goes back to clarity of thought in a presentation, right? If you have a model presentation >> Mhm. >> What are the three things that you're essentially telling me to show your clarity of thought? And the 50 things that you're leaving out because it's not really relevant.

33:12 >> You hit the nail on the head. One of the biggest skills of a pitch deck or storytelling is what you do not say. >> Yeah. >> If you have 1,000 things to say, what are those 10 things you're going to say? >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> That really is a skill. >> So, one, how can founders get better at it? Because you were just mentioning talk to more people and all of it. but everyone that they will will be able to talk to are not VCs. They don't think with that VC mindset, right? So, if they come and talk to me, I'm not thinking like an Abhinav, right? I might tell them something else.

33:42 how do you get to that point when you're going and making that the pitch, the do or die pitch, the make or break pitch. You are ready for it. >> Fantastic. So, we as a firm as bankers once we make the narrative, we have mock pitches and the whole team is actually invited. So, everyone kind of puts feedback and they spoke or the director who runs at the distills and gives feedback to the founder. Some founders are like, "I want to pitch again. I want to keep improving."

34:13 >> Mhm. >> so, people who are self aware that, you know, that's an area I need to improve, they work really really hard on it. >> But everyone can't afford, you know, Zarin and your team. So, if you have, you know, somebody >> we don't charge anything. We we charge nothing up front. Only when >> It's raised. >> it's a pure success fee model when it's raised. So, this all embedded in what we do. Besides, I mean besides the narrative and making sure the narrative is delivered right.

34:44 So, that's all embedded. >> I think one slide in this entire pitch deck thing that we haven't talked about yet is market size or the opportunity, right? We spoke about the problem solution, the why now, the why us, the that succinct one liner, all of that. The traction metrics and all of it, right? But, where does the market opportunity actually fall or the total addressable market as a as a slide? >> I think it's really important. One mistake that I have seen a lot of founders do, they'll do a very prelim Google search and they will just copy paste it, right?

35:20 There's no bottom-up approach. >> So, McKinsey said this, this is the number. >> Yeah, this is the market. >> Yeah. So, all all of the good founders will always aim beyond the TAM. >> Now, you have because as we were talking earlier, like most of the good founders will expand the TAM, right? So, the thing there is you have to ask them and figure out from them what is their bottom-up approach. Like, how are they arriving at this TAM as opposed to just copying it from somewhere?

35:45 >> One example I think that Zoran has probably worked on is Swiggy in the early 2010s, right? So, 2015. >> I haven't personally, but yeah, as a firm we did. >> Huh. So, one thing that I was reading is Swiggy in a sense that at that point the TAM would have been food delivery, right? But, if you expand it, the expansion of it would be that Swiggy is actually a transportation company. Because then now they've expanded into a larger subset of just food delivery, right? They're doing picking up parcels and dropping off from here to there and grocery delivery and all of it, right?

36:17 So, is that what the example could be of the expansion of the TAM when you're pitching to an investor? >> And like what's the bottom bottom's up approach of coming at that number? >> See you have to figure out which is the market that you're addressing and that's where you will come at times on Sam. >> Mhm. >> I think the bottom up approach has to be you have to understand what your product is and what it can be. Let's take the Swiggy example, right? You start as a food delivery business, but you see adjacencies there. Then you try to imagine yourself as a logistics player.

36:47 >> Mhm. >> Suddenly the time increases, right? And then somewhere along the line quick commerce becomes big. >> Mhm. >> Right? You need to have like that sort of flexibility in your company that you might actually not even know how you can increase the time, but that's where we are betting on the founders, right? One of the things that product's great, numbers look amazing, but how about how will this founder deal with uncertainty? >> Mhm. >> That's a I think an emotional call in a lot of ways that you took, you know, you're gauging the founder. So a lot of these times we don't even have examples.

37:18 It's always examples that come from hindsight. >> Yeah, fair because I'm pretty sure if I look at the Swiggy pitch deck from 2015, I'm pretty sure they didn't expand the time in the very beginning. It was a food delivery. I think their opening slide was food delivery 2.0. >> Yeah, so see in Swiggy nobody had a doubt about time. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Just from a food delivery perspective. >> Yeah, I mean the time is so large. It was very easy to imagine that a million people in India will order every day and the cost of delivering will be 50 to 100 rupees and what will be the average order value of that order and how much do you make and does it make So the the fundamental question in Swiggy always was unit economics.

37:55 >> Okay. >> Will you ever make money? Yeah? So in that story that's where you would have deep. For example, in Atomberg, >> Mhm. >> yeah? as a company you're doing well in BLDC motors in a particular kind of fan. How big can you be? >> Mhm. >> Yeah? so is it a thousand crore outcome? in now in that situation things like time expansion become important. So if If take a step back on time, time is very important when you pitch to an institutional investor.

38:24 >> Right. >> Now the institutional investor will have a particular fund size. >> Mhm. >> Like a 500 million fund, a billion dollar fund, and a 100 million dollar fund think very differently. Finally my as a fund investment in the company with a thousand crore revenue might move the needle for a 100 million dollar fund, but it might not move the needle for a billion dollar fund because even if everything succeeds it doesn't do much for the fund size.

38:54 >> Mhm. >> So your time in the context of what kind of fund you're pitching to >> Interesting. >> will be important. Like Shekhar Kiran in Accel says like the first thing I look for is TAM. If it doesn't move the needle for me as a fund, however good the founder is that space is not large enough, I'm letting it go. So larger fund sizes the large enough problem or large enough outcome becomes more important. >> We are putting money in bioenergy today.

39:22 >> Mhm. >> Potentially large TAM, but where does it stand today? It will have to expand. We're putting money in a company that is looking at changing the way how we build quantum computers. What is the TAM today? Like there's no TAM today, but let's say if they succeed then that is an infinite TAM because what you can do with the actual quantum computer in itself is something that we don't know till date. >> Mhm. >> So as he said, right? Because our mandates are slightly different. Like I'm okay to stay invested for 15 years, create value, and then figure out these questions later. But let's say if it's a billion dollar fund, they might not want to invest in something that has a potential TAM of less than 5 billion, let's say, because it just doesn't move the needle for the fund. So it it's very different in terms of who you're pitching to and who the what they want to invest in.

40:06 >> If you were to go one level below TAM, it's like finally what profit pool do you have in that addressable market in the context of what exactly you're doing? >> Mhm. >> Finally that profit pool into whatever is a exit multiple that outcome a million-dollar outcome versus what is the amount they're investing. That needs to make sense for the fund. so, most people see these time slides can read a McKinsey document and say, you know, it's a hundred billion-dollar market.

40:36 >> Mhm. >> Now, that statement might be wrong in the context of what you exactly do in the market. >> Mhm. >> Yeah, so what's your revenue pool and profit pool needs to be understood. And that clarity of thought like I always said bottom up. >> Mhm. >> Like for example at some point I was having conversation with the MyGate founder. So, he said, "Okay, this many apartments in Bangalore, this many in Chennai, top five cities."

40:57 This many independent houses. Here's this thing. And those are like reasonably validated bottom-up numbers of how many >> potential customers >> customers are there. Then you get into the context of what do do they exactly do. So, typically these top-down large numbers and say and people might just suddenly say, you know, a hundred billion is this market size. If we get 1%, we'll be this one. That is a very cliche and bad thing to do. It's a way of putting the investor off. But if you clearly know bottom up, this is it.

41:33 >> Mhm. >> Even if you lose like you might be like losing 20% of market because of going bottom up. >> Yeah. >> But still that number's convincing enough. your clarity of a very convincing number >> Mhm. >> works better in convincing an investor. >> So, so far we've discussed what all has to be in a deck, what are things that one cannot miss. But what are things that should not be in a deck? We haven't spoken about them at all. Are there things that you look in a deck and you're just like so turned off that like you're okay, now now this founder has lost me.

42:10 >> So, so one trend that happens is people There's usually a buzzword around the time you're raising capital. So, you before we started the podcast, we spoke about fishmongers being the Amul of fish. Now, some founders will say we are AI-enabled aquaculture today when they're pitching this. And this could put somebody off. That you use the buzzword for sake of it. So, there is a time where every deck is AI-enabled, every deck is cloud-enabled, every deck is AI-enabled.

42:42 >> Blockchain. >> Blockchain. This thing. So, and you're really not that, it puts puts you off. Because what you start questioning the integrity and authenticity of that founder. Why have you put that there? And one of the key resonating emotions which make an investor want to back a founder is I connect with the guy, I trust the person. And you lose authenticity, you lose trust. >> One one example, very similar, you know, everybody wants to put AI in their name today. So, there was a founder, he had put AI. Really had nothing to do. Basic computer vision, right? I asked that guy, "Why have you put it?" And it also depends on the repo you build during the monetization. You know, he flat out looked at me and said, "Karna padta hai, bro."

43:26 So, that that also for VCs, right? >> It's a It's a I know that side. I know. I've helped create pitch decks. >> I have I've heard that from a >> So, that also in a way builds authenticity where I understand, you know, he's the founder, he has to raise capital, he's trying to maximize his chances. So, these are some things that people do. Like, I'm sure all of us have done stupid things in the At least if the person is willing to say this out to me, "Karna padta hai." And then we're able to connect and bond on that, then that is also one indicator of authenticity. It depends on who you are as a person and how you look at the situation, I guess. Because it's like dating, right? Now, within the same VC, there are five people.

44:01 They're all different. >> Yeah. >> Now, it's a stroke of luck who you end up talking to. >> Got it. >> So, you have a pitch deck. You're are with a pitch deck. I'm going back to a lot of things that were said that a pitch deck is just a tool, a supporting act, all of that, right? How often have you seen founders completely ditch the pitch deck in the middle of a pitch and veer off in another direction and you're like, "Fine, I don't care about the pitch deck at all."

44:24 >> Many times. That happens. See, sometimes people are so rigid that they will just follow the pitch deck and we also as humans get bored. You know, somebody is just talking about the pitch deck. I already read through the pitch deck. I see that there is no dynamism in the founders. Looks like a very rehearsed speech. >> You would have coached them to do >> I guess, right? IBs will coach them. It looks very rehearsed. Sometimes their authenticity doesn't come in.

44:47 And sometimes it's just the first two slides. For example, let's say if somebody talks to me about climate. I've been doing it for a while. Like, I don't need to wait for them to go to the problem slide or the solution slide. I look at the intro, who's the team, etc. Then I'll start asking questions. More like leading questions as we say in law. Then the conversation we are off and the deck becomes irrelevant for 10-15 minutes and then you have to say, "Okay, let's look at the numbers." Then they come back to it. So, that keeps on happening on the go.

45:14 >> To the extent as a I wear two hats, as an investor and as a investment banker. As an investment banker, we actually recommend founders don't use the pitch deck in that important meeting with the investor. You can turn it on on the projector. If somebody asks a question, "So, what is your retention?" you just go to the slide. But otherwise, you start a conversation. You are zoned in with each other. You're transferring emotional energy and keep building that emotional resonance.

45:46 So, whatever you're saying, later you might send a deck which again amplifies whatever you spoke this thing and the deck might have been seen as a pre-screener by various people. And then with the decision maker, you spend time. So, you could have a short deck which gets you the call to action of getting to the meeting. In the meeting, you have an important conversation which is in line with your pitch deck and story, but you don't break you don't focus on it where it becomes the main character in that meeting and distracts emotional connect.

46:20 There are some founders who are brilliant at using the pitch deck and keeping emotional connect and like it's just magical. But, very few people can make sure that the deck doesn't become the projector doesn't become where emotions are happening. And in the post the meeting, you often send a much larger pitch deck with data or FAQs or whatever happens. So, that that usually is the sequence. >> Got it. So, can I ask on this? obviously you hear there is this one thing, right? Like if you are presenting to someone and you have slides as well, the person is either listening to you or reading what's on the slide. People can't do both usually at the same time, right?

46:58 So, you're not cramming your pitch deck with too much of text and numbers and all of it. That is number one. So, there has to be that emotional connect that you're drawing. >> So, so there it's that's why what you said earlier visuals are better. If you put a lot of text, you're talking about something and he's like, "Okay." He's reading all that. And he's distracted. He's not even And And then it starts like is this dude even listening to me?

47:22 All that starts playing out in the >> But, that is a presentation deck. But, you are also talking about you send a follow-on deck, right? With probably more information. Is it okay for that deck to be a little bit more verbose and a little bit more That is okay? Because now they've got your attention. You like what you've heard. >> Yeah. >> And you want to see more. >> Yeah. So, you delve into, you know, economics, how, why. So, you you give the whole buffet. Now, you like so all the questions they want to ask to rationalize here I'm interested. I'm I want to do this. You start ticking everything off. Now, that might be in the form of a pitch deck. It could be in the form of an Excel sheet. It could be in the form of a word document.

48:01 But it addresses all the deep dive that follows that hey, I'm interested in doing this. Go on. And by this time, what usually happens is there will be a champion in the deal within the fund who wants to do it and they're like convinced this is good. So, somewhere along they start working with you saying, you know what? all good. These parts, tweak it. Soon I'll be presenting it with my larger team. And I want to make sure they're all over the line.

48:29 >> So, from what I would understand now, there are two many types of pitch decks. There is the pre-screener pitch deck, which is probably shorter, more to the point, just to get people excited. >> email pitch deck. >> Yeah, which I think is part of the pre-screener itself, right? and then there is the actual pitch deck, which once you get in a room with the VCs, you present. There's potentially a post-pitch pitch deck as well, where there is even more data.

48:53 >> Exhaustive. >> Yeah, more data. >> Let me simplify this. when you're in the meeting room, >> Mhm. >> your pitch deck is about ideally should be 10 to 12 slides. >> Okay. >> Everything else is annexures. Okay, if somebody asks some very how and why questions, you have it with you. >> Mhm. >> You have a like you get past most of the things in the first 5 minutes and then it's a conversation. >> Right.

49:19 >> The pre-screener deck or whatever is also can be this much. >> Mhm. >> Or it can be an inline email. >> Mhm. >> Or you read fast, very convenient, you pick the things I I'm you build credibility fast. So, it could be six to 12 slider or an inline email. now, post this, they want to know things. You can cram all of this into a deck and it could be a 40-50 slider or it could be just the same deck exists and then you have word documents around frequently asked questions you have excel sheets and various forms of answering all the questions. So honestly, at the core of it is a story which is typically 10 to 12 key headings and that then comes into a pitch deck.

50:09 Don't make that pitch deck the main character in the meeting room. It's an aid. >> So these 12 headings that you said, I'm sure I haven't written it down but let me try and do a job and you can fill in the blanks where I miss it, right? So there is a one-liner which basically tells what the company is. That is one. Akansha, feel free to interrupt, right? There is the why now? There is the why us and obviously as Zarin said, these are just headings.

50:35 You can frame it however you want, right? So there are three. There's a problem and solution. Can I take that as one heading, problem solution or is that two? Sometimes it could be two. Okay, so let's go with >> Let's be flexible. >> Let's be flexible, right? So there's five. There's competition. There's a competitive landscape. >> It can be part of why now and why us or you could have a separate >> Got it. >> Before that, do we get into market size etc. or >> So let me just go with a quick flow, okay?

51:05 >> There's traction and numbers? >> So I'll just try to imagine some company >> The best deck that you've ever seen, like say for example the Airbnb deck that you told us was one of the best decks of its time etc. Walk us through that and tell us how people could maybe think of it as a template to build their deck. >> Porta is one of our decks which we built and which we really like. But Porta is a more complicated business. So let let me just take you through an uncomplicated business typically how the story would flow.

51:38 >> Okay. >> Okay. Some catchy headline like Amul for fish, exciting. Amul something large, fish exciting emotionally good for some people. Then what do we solve for? Okay, I don't know the business. So I'm guessing. So we make sure that live fresh fish reaches the hands of the consumer.

52:09 Then why today we are deficient in protein. And do you know that fish is the the most economical and healthiest source of protein. I'm See, now it's hypothetical storytelling, okay. So that covers why now. And the elements in that particular slide will again re-amplify the that fish is very important in our lives today. Then my last 15 years have been in so into a ship handling something. So the relevance of why fishmongers or I come from this clan of fishermen or whatever it is.

52:59 It wouldn't work for me. >> >> So yeah, I mean fish is the most important thing and this is what I've been doing for the This is what our team has been doing with respect to fish. Okay, it could be like we have we have tested a million fish in the last 100 days and this is what we found out. And why did we do this? So now the the whole thing is starting coming and you in this why us you somewhere along you say nobody is really doing this.

53:34 This is what others are doing. >> So that's the competition feeding. >> Yeah, the that's the competition into why us. Then from there you're getting into By the way, this is the momentum we have. This is what's been happening. We have every week we sell double the fish of what we sold last week. >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> traction number >> Yeah, now you can tell this by saying growth and put a lot of data. But if you say it as a sentence, every week we double what we sell. Yeah.

54:03 Then that's a little bit more this thing. >> Then it will stay with you longer. >> So you add, let's say three to four momentum elements which the investor says, "Hey, this is moving in the right direction." The the recipient needs to feel this is a moving bus. If I don't get on it, I'm missing out on something. That momentum needs to make you feel that way. And good execution has happened till date. If we succeed, this will be a X billion dollar outcome.

54:34 Okay. Okay. >> When you say X billion dollar outcome, what do you mean by outcome over here? >> Yeah. So outcome for me is like valuation. So it is a proxy to TAM. >> Mhm. >> So in that I'll be talking about the market, the business model, and how all of this It might be even three slides over there. Depending on the complexity of this thing. But the main message, the emotional message is, "Hey, the outcome is going to be good enough to move the needle for your fund."

55:01 That's what and you can't simply say it. It needs to be valid. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. so in that whole outcome thing you're addressing the market, the business model, unit economics, where we are, what projections will look like. Now, this flow can be different. Yeah. And more valuation things like this many million customers love us, testimonial. These are the investors who partnered us in our journey.

55:31 And you kind of end it in a good way. Like you know, time you eat fish, don't forget us or something. So, so it's like 10 things I want to say for this. So, but if you want to think about it from a template, it usually boils down to build credibility fast. your opening slide, opening 20 seconds, your problem statement, how you solve it. why why it's very relevant now. >> Mhm. >> Why are we the best to solve it? What's competition really doing? How does my business model work? What is my unit economics? What's my execution till date? What's the momentum?

56:11 >> Right. >> With this round, where will I get to? In the long run, what is going to be the outcome? What is the social validation till date in terms of investors, talent, people who have all joined us? And we hope to have you on the same journey. >> Understood. >> Perfect. >> Understood. >> So, this build credibility fast that you mentioned, that can be with anything, right? It could be metrics, which is your biggest thing. It could be why now.

56:34 It could be why us. >> Or one liner. >> with anything, right? That doesn't matter. >> Yeah. >> if you're a bodybuilder and you have great calves, you show your calves. If it's your biceps, you show your biceps. You got it. >> Okay, so the concluding side slide of this entire pitch deck as well, because investors typically sit through, I don't know, 1 hour of a presentation. They're not going to remember everything, all right? so like comedians do callbacks when they do stand-up comedy sets, do founders also do a callback right at the very end to end it on a high?

57:03 >> I like this bit where I'm juxtaposing entrepreneurs and core comedians. I always say entrepreneurs are delusional. so usually a summary slide to just, you know, remember you to just refresh everything and tightly pack it up and give it. I've seen people do that. there are in good credible investors who where I speak about credibility and they say, you know, put the whole agenda up front quickly.

57:34 >> Okay. >> Yeah, so that summary slide or executive summary can can come up front. Or it can come at the end. Different people have different choices. So but it's good to call call back. >> Okay, got it. >> Because people forget things in 40 minutes and you got excited and you went down one path. >> Yeah. If I'm profitable and doing well, I'll call back to my metrics. >> See, if you're profitable and doing well, all VCs will 100% remember that.

58:03 So don't need to call back to that. >> Yeah, but the call back for example is you put all the slides together and then it's the final slide saying we are building market leadership and growing at a clip of 200% with the possibility of creating a $7 million outcome with probably the most kickass team in this. That one slide is what we want to take them to take away. >> Got it. And one thing on the traction side also, something that I've seen is that people want to keep it very polished.

58:31 Like this is what we've done. Like often people do not point out how by their mistakes. I think that is something founders need to start talking about in the pitch deck. In the pitch deck, like when you have the traction slide that I my company has been from 2015, let's say 2016 or it's been from 2020 and it's 2026. You invariably, unless you're like a super genius founder who's never made a mistake, that is one case. The other case is that you would have made mistakes on the way. Right? Now, one thing that people are looking at while investing is not the deck.

59:01 It's not the superstar, right? The superstar is your problem-solving ability. Now, I mean you can also pitch into this. Like I feel founders should automatically put out some failures. Because your metric is winnability. Is this guy able to solve problems? What are the sort of problems that they face? Because as a founder you will face existential problems even after you get investor money, right? That's like 10% of the job. You get the money and then 90% of the job is building that company from there. I think is that something that people should put in a pitch deck? Like I would really appreciate it.

59:32 >> Yeah, so I would appreciate it, too. So, in classic storytelling, nobody likes a flatline story. You know, hero goes through a lot of and then comes up or he goes up, comes down. So, people like to see that. So, the moment somebody says before we hit that sweet spot, we tried this, it didn't work. We tried this, it didn't work. It does two things. You know the rate of iteration is good for the founder. And he's being honest about things.

60:03 But now, if like somebody listens to this and says, we need to create a slide around failure. It's >> >> very contextual. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, like >> If you're pitching to Abhinav, probably do, but otherwise probably don't. >> Yeah, I mean, suddenly you just put out your failures like, "Oh my god." And your hit rate is like So, it has to be contextual of how did you iterate, what did you learn from it, and then how did you build on it and hit success?

60:30 >> So, everything that goes there has to be intentional to show a point. Like, if I even put up a mistake there, it has to say I learned this from this, and this is what I added, and this is how we >> So, it's not a must-have slide, it's a nice-to-have slide if it is something really that happened in your story. >> Okay. And necessarily you don't want to Yeah. Do that. >> Yeah, it's just a list of mistakes, yeah.

60:52 >> Are there any thumb rules when it comes to creating a pitch deck that people should know? I've heard about the 10-20-30 rule. 10 slides, I think 30 is the font size, and 20 in 20 minutes it should be covered, the 10-20-30, right? Are there any thumb rules that you think is relevant? >> I think that's a decent rule. The 10-20-30. Yeah, I don't want to give a random opinion. I think that works. >> It's a very good rule.

61:17 >> More or less in alignment, 9 to 15 slides. >> Okay. >> Quickly get the meat out of the way so that it's a natural conversation where you're building an emotional bond with the investor. So, typically that it could be 8 to 20 minutes, the whole story is covered. >> Mhm. >> And the investor patient and there are two kinds of investors, people who want you to tell the whole thing and then they go into Q&A or people who by the way tell me I mean the story like at the beginning of the story itself it becomes a conversation.

61:47 so more or less I mean I actually don't care about fonts as >> One thing I've seen in founders, right? Sometimes people come with the idea that I will get 20 minutes to pitch. So, they're so in it. If you ask them a question in between they get stumped. So, that sort of flexibility you should maintain. So, never go by certain rules and >> So, that's the rigidity you were talking about when it comes to relying on the pitch deck as a crutch.

62:09 >> Correct. So, if you keep following thumb rules like this, it is possible that you will bracket yourself in in in that category. That is something that you should be safe from. And that will come with practice, right? So, you if you're and your people are helping you out with presentations, etc. Make sure that people ask questions that will stump you. >> Mhm. >> Because I've seen it a lot of times and that sort of derails the conversation and the founder gets nervous and all of that and >> Because in the back of their mind they're like I have this much time, I need to cover this.

62:35 >> Correct. And sometimes they they're not ready ready with a lot of answers, right? Because they've just prepared the slide. You should go and that's when it is important as when Zarin you were talking that founders should ideally not need a pitch deck. >> Yeah. >> It's a placeholder. It's a it's a conversation starter. And then you have to you have to be dynamic enough. Like don't get married to the idea that I have to present this in 20 minutes and I have to cover everything.

62:59 >> Okay, so let me try and counter that a little. We created some sort of a template saying these are the 10 slides that we need to talk about, the headers that we need to talk about. Now, your question is so interesting and you've given me only 20 minutes that I know if I start answering it, I will not cover three of the key elements in this template. Right? I'm 100% confident that in 20 minutes it will not happen. Do I tell you, Abhinav, can we come back to that question later because there's something else I want to tell you?

63:26 And continue with my pitch or really sit down and >> I personally feel that if if let's say I'm asking question in between and you have addressed it in your slides, then you can always tell me that, you know, this question the answer to the question is going to come up. But let's say I've asked you something, then see why am I asking something? Because I care. I'm interested already. Otherwise I'll look at it as my job that I have to give this guy 30 minutes. Sun let them. And then I move on to the next thing. So when I'm actually asking question, there's meaning behind those questions. So it's okay to let it go because if you're able to answer questions well and you're able to build that hook with the investor, he will in his free time go back and read your deck.

64:02 >> So it's okay even if I don't complete these key points >> completely okay. >> from the deck. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Interesting. >> See that those things we spoke about problem statement, why now, why us, all those I call those as building blocks. Now you can sequence them in any way. And five investor conversations will get sequenced differently. And let it flow that way. And that's where you being able to tell the story without the pitch deck means okay, he's asking me about this. Let's talk about that.

64:33 And that happens often and I mean, now it's a lot better I guess, but there were times when VCs were like so tired or taking flights and they might be sleepy and like you the founders pitching and you know you've lost the room. Yeah, that time you have to just throw away your whole story, your pitch deck and so on. And you got to be an entrepreneur. Like how do I bring this guy back into the thing?

64:57 >> One very interesting thing that has happened is there are a lot of VC funds now. Right? And the founders also now have a choice. Right? So if you feel that you you're pitching in a room, this dude's always looking on his phone, he's a little distracted, could be really busy. Do you want to go ahead with this team? Or do you want them to be on your cap? But if he's so busy right now, will he continue to be available or will they continue to be available, etc. So, I think with the I mean, it might go against a lot of what we've been talking about, you know, how VCs think, what do founders do, etc.

65:28 Maybe we should also start asking questions of what we should VCs should start doing. >> Mhm. >> There are I'm sure there are hundreds of improvements that VCs also need to make. As an IB, you would have figured that by now. Maybe have some conversations around that. >> I think we'll start a new IB for that. You know, we'll invite founders and we'll like What do you >> Yeah, exactly. What do you not like about VCs or what's your experience be?

65:49 >> Fair. >> And what the classic the movie depiction, I think in the Facebook movie network or or like you >> The Social Network. >> Yes, you pitch and then you like I don't give a damn. >> Mhm. >> This is it. You want to come, you come. You like you do a half pitch and you try to create FOMO. >> Mhm. >> I don't know. I mean, I don't think now the industry is maturing. Unless in each VC they have their own groups. There's There's a lot of group think.

66:21 And all of that also happening. So, I think if you're very the clarity of thought or authenticity that's spilling over into your story, into your pitch deck, and how you behave, all of this being congruent is what eventually gets you the options of multiple capital partners. >> So, thank you so much, Jain. Thanks, Abhinav, for joining us on How VCs Think. Hopefully, we've been able to create some sort of a template like how Sequoia and Y Combinator has and we'll now have a a Rainmatter collabed with Indigo Edge template as well, right?

67:01 So, thanks so much for doing this, guys. >> Thank you. Look forward. >> Hey. >> >> Hey.