Do You Have the Latent DNA — Ideas from Dr. Kapil Gupta

0:00 That's where all the gold is, so to speak, is in looking for the truth about the situation as opposed to the default setting for everybody, which is well, what do the experts thinks and what do I think? What do my friends think and what do like the truth doesn't care about any of that. It works well for people who have demonstrated seriousness and sincerity in their own lives in maybe other departments of their life in which there is a DNA a proclivity a natural tendency for being serious not screwing around wasting time talking nonsense.

0:45 So the ones who really have the greatest chance and maybe you kind might even say the only real practical chance are the ones who have the latent DNA for that but they've never gotten in touch with it because society never let them go there. If you are speaking about the DNA of an individual who has the latent DNA of seeking greatness and truth and legendary and well then then you are speaking about the individual who would want to go counter. You cannot satisfy two masters.

1:20 You cannot satisfy a devotion to truth and also have a deep desire for the adoration of others that you should always verify for yourself. Like I mean I might say 16,000 times a week don't listen to me because if you take it on faith that's nonsense. You should be able to observe and verify it for yourself. So you can see why this is for nobody. On some sense, it's for everybody. But in another sense, on a practical level, it's for nobody. It's just a matter of what depth of truth are you talking about. The deeper you go, the more get eliminated from the running. Thank you Dr. Gupta for joining me today.

2:14 Today I wanted to start our conversation with the foundation. You talk about truth and devotion to the truth and when I first came across your work I couldn't quite understand what you were saying. So naturally then I made the assumption that by truth you were signaling something spiritual. You were talking about the big mysteries of life and the universe and nature of existence that sort of thing. And it was only later that I realized and I understood that I had misunderstood you. I realized that in every situation, every domain has its truth and if one can discover this truth, it is a superpower. What else am I missing about the truth? I mean, we could talk for 20 years about what people are missing about the truth. I mean, I guess it would have to be a specific question. I guess that that's too open-ended.

3:17 A specific question is, is it fair to say that in every situation there is the truth? You know, I think it's perhaps more precise and more practical to say that the most effective thing is to seek the truth as opposed to seeking opinion, belief, you know, the expert rhetoric, the status quo, the prevailing logic, you know, all those things. I think it's better put that way that it's about whatever the situation is. Not that someone should or shouldn't do it, but that's where the heart of the matter is.

4:01 That's where all the gold is, so to speak, is in looking for the truth about the situation as opposed to the default setting for everybody, which is well, what do the experts thinks and what do I think? What do my friends think and what do like the truth doesn't care about any of that. And I think that's where the most valuable thing is. Another realization for me was that it is very logical and like you indicated it's not a matter of belief or faith but one must kind of start from the beginning and be genuinely interested in discovering it and then it's fairly logical and once you discover it when you see the truth it explains ains lot of what goes on in that situation, what happens in that domain.

5:03 Well, I think even having to talk about it shines a light more on not what the truth is, but it shines a light of about where human beings are and how the world conditions humans. And so the fact that it even has to be said to look for the truth that tells you something, right? Like what else would you be looking for? It's kind of like saying make sure that today you remember not to hurt yourself on purpose. Like why would you need to say that? Of course, no one's going to go around trying to hurt themselves on purpose, right? It doesn't need to be said. But the fact that it needs to be said shows just how lost conditioning makes human beings that even the most basic of the basic thing needs to be said. Uh so if it needs to be said that that the truth is what people is the most effective thing to look for if that needs to be said that shows much less about what the truth is and shows much more about the state of human beings.

6:17 I'm curious Dr. Gupta as a parent one thing I wonder is okay so there's societal conditioning and we've talked about DNA before you've talked about DNA before that not everyone has the DNA for truth seeking and to be able to understand the truth what can somebody who's a parent of a teenager do with this observation that you made that the fact that it has to be said indicates damage that the conditioning does, right? I mean, and that's not just parenting. It's anything like humans are not wired to do effective things and the wiring even if it was there has been rewired by conditioning. So I don't think like telling people is of any benefit of any use. So even if someone hears this podcast about the truth, what are they going to do? Go seek the truth. It's not going to happen, right? I mean, like it's not humans are not that way. They are conditioned to seek prescriptions and how-tos and five-step plans. And so when they come to this, they're going to see, okay, what is the prescription?

7:32 What is the five-step plan? What is the how-to that I can glean from this? And even though there won't be any, they will turn it into one, right? They will find a way to turn what I say into a method or a how to. They will say, you know, even even if it's so much like, okay, I should seek the truth. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't seek the truth. Like, forget what I said. Like, don't even listen, right?

7:54 So, humans are not going to change themselves. All right? So, doesn't matter like I think any attempt to help the audience is just it's a waste of time. I mean, I think the way things are, not the way they should be and not that the people are wrong. It's just I I like speaking the truth because it's it's the way it is and I don't like games like they don't interest me, right? So, when you ask, you know, parenting, you know, how should a parent like what does it matter?

8:27 Because nothing that is said is going to be followed anyways. And honestly, it shouldn't be followed because if you follow it, you will be doing so in a mechanical and prescriptive manner. So following it won't help you anyways. So I think anything to help the audience must be flushed from the system like poisonous gas. I mean it it's it's it's a useless waste of breath. You know, if you ask me the color of the sky, I'll say it's blue. Okay? And that's fine.

8:58 But if you ask me what color the sky should be and how can the audience help to I like I'm not interested. I'm not interested. It it bores me. I I'm not interested. I know human beings. I'm not interested. And my sense is that these conversations are perhaps meant for a few people and certainly more people will tune in, listen to them and take what they can from it. But if I look back at my own experience, the ideas you've shared on truth did accelerate some of my self inquiry for myself. And so perhaps there's more benefit to this and not that we're doing this for any benefit. That's a that's a fair point.

9:48 That's a fair point. But that's why I always say it isn't about me because it's what you get from the words. It's what you get from the writing. It's what you get from, you know, if I have said something or written something, you know, 10 people might have read it, right? And maybe only one, like you said, maybe it accelerated his own self. It did something to him and made the other nine did nothing. Maybe it made them mad, right? Maybe it annoyed them and made them outraged.

10:19 Maybe even made them more confused. So that's why it's not about me. And there's no way for me to predict even which thing like people ask me what book should I read. I don't I don't like don't even read any of them. Like I don't I don't have no idea what might resonate, what may not resonate if any might resonate. So when you it accelerated your capacity for self-awareness that isn't predictable, right? And that's also in the extreme minority.

10:49 But whatever it did or didn't do, it wasn't because of you following some five-step thing by listening to me. Cuz first of all, I never gave any five-step thing. But it was it was something that was within you. So I will accept what you said in terms of for a given individual, this may do something to him. That's true. That's true. But I guess the number of people that exist in the world like that are very small. But once again, to your point, even if they're small, if a given individual happens to benefit from it, that's fine. But I must be honest, that isn't what gets me up in the morning. And that's good for that individual. But my my joy comes from the art. My joy doesn't come from the applause. And it's not a good thing or a bad thing. My joy doesn't come from what I get from the world. Like if I didn't like speaking truth, I wouldn't do it. I don't care how many benefited. To me, that is the only thing in existence. I like things that are real. I love reality.

12:10 I love things like their bottom line hard reality will never change. They are the way they are. I'm looking for the truths of life in everything and craft and world class performance and mind and everything. Those things interest me and that's why I talked about them. So I I never want to in any way and in fact I probably go far out of my way that I don't do things that you know try to like make people think a certain way because I believe in the sovereignness of the individual not in him becoming dependent upon somebody else.

12:56 Seems like it works well for people who have predelection towards thinking for themselves. Yes. Yes. It works well for people who have demonstrated seriousness and sincerity in their own lives in maybe other departments of their life in which there is a DNA, a proclivity, a natural tendency for being serious, not screwing around, wasting time talking nonsense, which once again are very, very very few.

13:41 Dr. Gupta, you've said at times that you don't know where your where the ideas you share are coming from. They are coming through you but not from you. What does that mean? Okay. What do you think it means? Here's what I think. I guess I would suggest that they're coming from within you. Your DNA you had no control over.

14:12 But given that you do have the DNA you have now it's a matter of being driven by your DNA uh you know just like the kind of understanding that a Da Vinci might have had or Benjamin Franklin or whoever else Charlie Mer Stefen Curry what I found is this is the ultimate test of whether you've created optimal conditions for creativity where the ideas seem to come.

14:44 At least that's been my experience. I mean, if there is optimal conditions for me, it would be devotion. I contest the notion that these come from me. I don't think a human has the bandwidth to create such things. Truth is not something that I manufactured. It is not something that I intentionally thought up. I think the greatest art is given. I think the greatest art belongs to the divine. Doesn't belong to the human and it comes from places that are not mentionable because there's no name for them.

15:32 So I will maintain without any doubt that you know whatever I write whatever the words that show up on the page and if there's any errors if there's any places in which the words are less than optimal those are from me. If there are any words that have the ability to transform that some might deem otherworldly or on some high level, those are not from me. They come from some source and you know you might call it divine. That's where they come. They they don't they don't come from me.

16:14 To what degree do prompts from the environment help? Whether it's a beautiful question or an observation about something that then leads to some insights that one might not know resided within but it just came. Well, I think that's related to the capacity to observe and the desire to observe. And once again, that is interfered with just as truth is interfered with by a prediliction for want to do doings and practices. And you know, you cannot fill something that's already filled.

16:56 You know, if a if a bucket is already filled with something, it can't be filled with something else. It has to become empty of that thing first. Once again, so like these are not things that I'm trying to teach. These are the way that things are. So the internal capacity and desire and prediliction for observation is more likely to occur in one who is looking for reality and truth than it is likely to occur in one who simply wants the five steps. All things end up fitting together. There's layers upon layers upon layers. You know, I speak Xword based upon the layer beneath it, which was, you know, Word, which was based upon the layer beneath it, which was VW word.

17:52 And I think the shortsightedness and ignorance of the world is in believing that you can affect things at the level of the why. which is, you know, which would be like it's how you react to things. It's your behavior as opposed to the 27 layers deeper from which that behavior came from. Like the world is cosmetics. The world is superficial.

18:26 Humans are shallow and they've been taught to be. And so everything is surface level. wanted to switch gears to the business world for a bit. You remarked before how managers and leaders understand very little about human nature and we talked about it before that if they did they would not be doing charades like team building events and that kind of thing. My question is what makes it hard for leaders, for people who are very intelligent and have positive intent for the company and their team to just understand the basics of human nature.

19:13 Well, they're just not wired that way. I mean, the number of people who are wired to look for the truth and the reality of something, like I said, is very small. So it doesn't matter if that the person who doesn't have that DNA. It doesn't matter what he is. Doesn't matter if he's a leader of a company or doesn't like he takes himself with him. He is himself wherever he goes. It's not going to like you put him in a different position and now all of a sudden he has a new DNA. No. So the human like the vast majority of humans are not like that. It doesn't matter what post they're in. It doesn't matter how much money they have.

19:54 And intelligence is a barrier in many cases. I mean people who are intelligent the problem is they'd like to be intelligent and therefore they read a bunch of books and they you know gather a bunch of stuff because that supports their intelligence so that they can spout more things and sound more intelligent. So the intelligent becomes a currency of its own. Intelligence has more to do with what one doesn't know than what he does.

20:32 What is one to do in this situation if you're running an organization? How can you do anything if you don't have the DNA for it? I mean, I don't understand. Like where does that question go? What do you mean? What does one do? you know what are you going to do to change your you have surgery say you're running an organization where you have people who are otherwise intelligent but don't see some of these facets of human nature and so therefore are involved so you know I would say that the only possibility is that if there's latent DNA within someone and because even the ones with latent DNA vestigial DNA that has been camouflaged and maybe even I won't say eliminated because it's probably always there but it's been covered up by all the conditioning that person has a chance because he has some capacity but that capacity has never been given permission or life because he's been steered in the direction of the how-tos and the nonsense and the experts. So the person with latent DNA does have a chance. And so that individual when truth is shared with him, something inside him resonates. But but you can't turn one who doesn't have the DNA into one who does. And I'm not even interested in do like doesn't interest me to do that. So the ones who really have the greatest chance and maybe you kind might even say the only real practical chance are the ones who have the latent DNA for that but they've never gotten in touch with it because society never let them go there.

22:23 And I think that's a very real statement because those same people who have the latent DNA, many of them also don't want to be alone. And the more you seek the truth, the less people that you're going to have to talk to. So you will be alone unless you like talking nonsense because your friends are not seeking the truth. That much I can promise you. So like once again, it's a perfect storm thing. You know, you have to be okay with being alone. That's one requirement, right? It's not my requirement. It's just what what will happen to you like if you seek the truth and you want to talk about the truth all the time. You're not going to find takers.

23:08 You're not going to find a social circle. That's like that's the opposite of a social circle, right? Because your material which you're working with is the world and the world is full of garbage seekers. So you're not going to go to a place of garbage seekers looking for non-garbage. that just doesn't common sense. So you have to have want to be alone or okay to be alone basically no friends right maybe no relationships I mean there's add layer upon layer right and once again these are not my requirements I don't have to say anything to you all I have to do is hold up a mirror and I'll reflect your whole life because I can guarantee you that anybody who's read my words and then felt for whatever reason motivated to share this truth with somebody else probably got slapped in the face in one manner of speaking or another. Very rarely if ever was it taken openly. And so that shows that the people will turn against you. So even if one has the latent DNA, does he have the other DNA then to want to be alone? Probably not. So like there's so many things that have to happen. And not that not that this is some kind of like test that you should pass. It's up to you, right? I'm just saying the way things are. You want to go sit with your friends and talk about let's talk about the truths of life. The way things really are, the reality, you know, you're going to be the only one at the table. They don't talk about that.

24:48 This brings me to a follow-up question which is how quickly can you tell if someone has the DNA to be able to understand the truth of their domain? What patterns have you observed across the few such people that you've come across? I mean I would say inquisitiveness, there's an inquisitiveness, there's a non-reactivity, there's a nonoutrage. Usually it's not very difficult. It usually reveals itself. I mean the you know everyone's basically a a reactionist everyone's a you know an outrage expert right and the truth I mean the truth will create outrage because it's ridiculous because many of the truths you simply cannot get further away from the norms and the ways of thinking of the word you can't get any further away than the truth so It will it will be against everything that a human being's ever believed in. So it naturally will cause outrage.

25:50 It naturally will cause confusion. But I don't think the intelligence lies in the person understanding it. I think the intelligence lies in the natural not outrage. I think the intelligence lies in the detection that something is there. There's something there. That's intelligence. Intelligence isn't being a parrot who can spout a bunch of pages from a book. Intelligence isn't one who can read a bunch of books and memorize the knowledge. It's it's nonsense. Intelligence is being able to detect that there's wisdom in the environment in which he is in and that there's nonsense in the environment in which he's in. regardless of whether he understands it at that moment or not.

26:40 The truth doesn't care about your feelings. No. And having said that, the truth isn't trying to hurt your feelings either, right? So that must be said. It isn't it isn't that either, right? I also wanted to get your thoughts on corporate shibilitates such as things like bias for action. You know, the top companies I know pay millions of dollars to a single employee who maybe got the job among like a thousand really talented people who applied. And then the moment this employee is hired, they brainwashed them into not actually thinking for themselves with things like move fast and break things, fail fast, bias for action, that kind of thing.

27:30 So what would you advise a CEO regarding setting the right kind of operating environment or operating principles for their company as it is scaling because there is a practical utility to these things. It's a difficult problem. It depends on it depends on who the CEO is. It depends upon who the human is beneath the CEO exterior. It's all about the human. Who am I dealing with? Right? Like what do I have standing in front of me?

27:57 That's the bottom line to everything. Let's assume it's a CEO who's at the top of their craft. Well, the problem is like even when you mention some of those quotes or whatever it is, there's a kernel of truth to these things. The problem is that they become institutionalized. And when you institutionalize it and when you make it prescriptive, you destroy it. And humans don't understand that. They'll never understand that. That's too much because they'll always come back with and logically so well if there's no how then what am I supposed to do and if I don't like like if I don't prescriptionize it then I have no how and then I just sit here then I mean there's no getting past that statement. It's a roadblock right there.

28:44 So, humans are too interested in like, you know, wanting their ideas to be captured by an audience and then have the audience go practice them. And they don't understand the audience. They don't understand the mind of humans and they don't understand themselves. And and honestly, like I'm uninterested in your questions about how would you get so and so to be more this and that. You know, once again, there's so many layers and perfect storms that have to exist. I mean, it's got to be a person who I I enjoy talking to, right? And what that means is like a person who has the DNA like the everything in the world is putting out fires. Every question in the world is what's the band-aid. I guess I'm not interested in those things. I'm not interested in how to get a CEO to be a little bit more this, a little bit more that. I don't care about a little bit. A little bit doesn't interest me, right? I don't care. Those are small things.

30:06 I'm interested in big things and big things require big people and big people are not the smartest and big people are not the the the I'm bigger than you. No, no, no. The big people are the ones who have the capacity for greatness because they have the capacity to look beyond the nonsense and desire to look towards the real. And you basically are in that very statement eliminating almost all humans in the world but like six. And those six are probably scattered across the earth in different locations and maybe some of them live in a cave. Who knows? But like I'm not interested in small improvements. It doesn't interest me. I don't care that you help me get 5%. I don't like No. I mean, it's like treating a paper cut.

31:02 And in all honesty, I'll answer my own question. I'll respond to my own statement and I'll say that what are we talking about then? I agree. There's no one to talk to and basically everyone listening is not part of the six. Then it's just it's just a echo chamber. It's my experience that there are some leaders, some CEOs I've worked with who appear to have the DNA. Part of the reason they reached the top of their craft is because there was at least some truth realization.

31:51 Correct. And it's all well and good, but again in practical terms now you've built something and it's highly differentiated. And now some of the corporate conditioning takes over. Some of this is how we do things.

32:22 Yes. And in some cases because maybe this is the first time they're doing it or again because now they've also been conditioned a certain way. They play along. Deep down they're not certain about it but everybody else is doing it so we shall do it. And that is the latent DNA I was talking about. Right. So I am thinking about that individual right who perhaps likely has the DNA and now is seeing things are not going the way I'd like them to go.

33:07 That's fair. That's fair. But yet I have this organization to run. I don't I don't know what you mean by that. Yet I have this organization to run. What does that mean? Means I in again in practical terms I do have to run this business. But but the truth is nothing if not practical. Yes, I agree. Okay. So then I don't understand what's your point.

33:38 You are divorcing you are divorcing the possibility of remaining with truth while also having to run a corporate endeavor. Those things would be divorcable if you wanted to make the others in the company follow truth as well. That ain't happening. Okay? Then there would be a divorce. But if that's not what you're trying to do, because you realize it's not going to happen, I don't understand why pursuing truth is incompatible with a practical endeavor, whatever it may be, running a company, whatever it may be. Because if it is, if pursuing truth is incompatible with a practical end, truth is nonsense.

34:31 Then truth is garbage. Because it's all about practicality. This this is the most anti-cave, anti-spirituality, anti- philosophy person you're ever going to find. I don't believe in any of that stuff. So if truth isn't compatible with practicality, it's of no use to anyone. So I don't understand what you're saying. Truth is the most logical and practical thing that's out there. The challenge is what does one do as this leader because in many cases he or she will have to go very counter to everything out there. Right?

35:22 And I would say and I would say the possibility of greatness lies in the counter. It lies in the domain of the counter. It doesn't lie in the domain of the norm. And this is not a recommendation that you should go counter. Mhm. But the rarified things, the other worldly things, the the things that become legendary, the human that become legendary are the ones that are at the extremes of the extreme. They're in the very domain of the counter. So like why would you want to be [Music] non-counter? When I say why wouldn't you? I'm saying that you should follow that. I'm saying that's where the possibility for greatness lives. And I'm not even saying that you should want to be great.

36:11 But if you are speaking about the DNA of an individual who has the latent DNA of seeking greatness and truth and legendary and well then then you are speaking about the individual who would want to go counter. So you're speaking of going counter as something that is undesirable. It is seen as undesirable. Who cares what it seems by the people you've hired? No. No. But okay. Therefore, go ahead. No, talk straight. You could talk straight. Go ahead. Okay. It is seen as undesirable by the people. And that's what I said to begin with. I said there will be a divorce. There will be a divorce of these two things if your attempt is to try to make your people move towards truth.

37:05 But if that is not what you're trying to do, then they're then they're not incompatible. But it sounds to me like you are. You're often not in the room when certain decisions are made. So I guess that depends how much power you have, right? And it depends upon then then that could relate to what is what do you mean by leader? If you have very limited power, then your leadership is nonsense. You're not the leader of anything. It's not bad or good. I'm just stating the way the state of affairs in that particular situation. If you are the leader, then that means that you have the capacity to call maybe not 100% of the shots, but many of them. If your hands are tied at every turn, then you're not obviously not a leader. I don't mean in a derogatory like you that isn't your post in that particular situation. That isn't a leader. I don't mean from a philosophical like like physically that isn't your job status or whatever you want to call it, right?

38:20 That isn't the chair you're sitting in. You cannot satisfy two masters. You cannot satisfy a devotion to truth and also have a deep desire for the adoration of others.

38:55 And by cannot, I don't mean that you're not allowed. I'm saying it's not going to work. You can do whatever you want. And once again, you see these things, they will continually and continually, no matter what the question or what complexion the questions take on, they will all return to the DNA of the individual. Because a person who has more or less interest in what others whether they celebrate him or don't that also is a DNA and none of it's a judgment that that's wrong or you shouldn't do that.

39:44 No, one's DNA is your DNA and there's no bad or wrong about that. Looking at how I have been running and I have a very small company right now. Looking back at how I've been running things is that hire people. Perhaps it goes back to influence. And what I want to ensure is that the right things are happening when somebody's at their desk. Because anybody doing their work at their desk, they're making tens dozens of micro decisions. And the way I've been able to deal with that situation to make sure that the art of what we're doing is preserved is by using the art of influence. particularly being as clear as possible about what we are trying to do and why and I've been thinking about how does this scale one thing I will say I think there's a danger in trying to reach people what do you mean by reach meaning my employees anybody anybody I think there's a danger to believing that you'll get through. That does not mean you shouldn't try. That does not mean that you shouldn't do whatever you think needs to be done obviously. But if a person believes he can reach truly reach people, I don't know. I think he overestimates either his capacity or the capacity of those he's trying to reach.

41:34 And I'll be honest, like everyone lives in a different place, right? Everyone's, remember the layers I was talking about, the B and the C and the D and the E, like everyone's layers are different. Everyone's experiences of life are to some degree different. So they have different thresholds. They have different perceptions. They have different ways in which they view things. I have a very very very I don't think there's anyone who exists with a lower view of humanity than I do. So it doesn't mean that's right or wrong or you should agree nothing to do with that. But because I do then that informs a lot of the things that I say.

42:20 So when I say six people in the world I don't know maybe it's 1,280. Okay. So like none of us is like totally pure. None of us is like totally neutral, right? We all we all have our we all have our peculiarities, not robots. I don't like the world. That absolutely 100% informs the things that I say. Now the things that I say about the world are also true.

42:59 But my distaste also comes through which is not neutral. So you have to you can only do things according to your own nature according to where on the scale you sit with regard to how you see things with regard to your own peculiarities. That's why I don't believe in prescriptions. That's why I don't believe in like all this coaching stuff. I I I I I think it's deplorable because it's about the human and the human is intricate and the human is complex and it is an insult to prescribe to humans. It is an insult to the level of their suffering. It is a frank insult. It is a denial of their suffering to prescribe to them. It is to shame their suffering. It is to not take it seriously. Human suffering is real. It is serious. And to blow it off with all of this nonsense. That is what protests should be going about. That is what riots should be happening against is because riots and protests even on a minor level like I'm not recommending people to protest or riot. I don't have any interest in that. No one should ever riot or protest. But like if you call someone a name, if you call your neighbor stupid, he will protest against you, right? He will react. No, you're stupid or you're you you have no right to call me, right?

44:42 That should be the reaction to someone giving them a prescription because to say, "Oh, you basically a prescription. Oh, you'll be fine. Just go do some mindfulness and pat them on the back and send them on their way." That's an insult. That is to belittle their suffering. That is to belittle the gravity of their pain. No one understands that. I also get you're not interested in the average or the above average or even the top 10%, right? That is not of interest.

45:17 I mean, for me, it's not a hierarchy thing. It's it's a it's a depth thing. It's a DNA thing. It's not about how high, it's about how deep. And like I'm interested in what I'm interested and I have no apologies for that. Right? And in that same breath I will say that I don't recommend that others should be interested in that. You know some like pistachio with strawberry with a sprinkle of salt like whatever and pepper. I don't know right. Like there's no apology for that. That's what you like. I'm smitten by the ultimate. I'm smitten by what the gods know. So like the world is a small place to me in terms of like where to search for things and what things I'm looking to find. I'm not looking for worldly betterment. doesn't interest me and I didn't choose that interest and I don't apologize for it either. I'm interested in what the gods know. I'm interested in what humans don't think about ever. Not that they should. So that informs what I do. That interest informs what I do. That informs my approach. that informs my writings because I'm interested in those types of rarified otherworldly, highest of the high, unimaginable by the human. You know, I love that. I look outside at the world, I see a bore out of my mind. Like it's the most pedestrian. Like I'm not saying it should be for you, but for me, it's the most pedestrian thing. Try to get a little bit little bit better. I'm a little bit more this, a little bit more like I don't care. The gods aren't looking down say how much do I get like a little bit better today, you know? How do I get 2% better today? Like I'm not saying there's only no utility to that. I'm not saying that that's useless. I'm not saying it's anything. Like I'm not saying that strawberry is useless, right? I'm not saying you shouldn't like it. I'm interested in those things. And because I am, that isn't going to be very popular. Not because it's bad, but because it isn't a shared liking. It isn't a shared desire. So that informs like if I like that then that informs who I talk to, what sort of individual I would work with, what kind of things I would say.

48:33 That informs everything because at the end of the day we do what we like. And there's no like you should like that. That that's none. You should like anything like you like what you like. It's no more, you know, deep than that. That's why I'm not excited when oh, you know what? This helped me do this. Okay. Like I don't mean to be mean. Like I'm not trying to that's great for you. I mean that if I was in your shoes and I got something out of it, you know, that would be very that would be very joyful. You know that that that's great. But I'm not interested in that.

49:23 If it happened to you by side effect that you read something that I by accident it helped you, you know, whatever. Like that's great. But I'm not interested in these little things. And I'm not saying that you should consider them little as well. And I have nothing to say to anybody. I am telling you what I like. That's it. Yeah. That resonates simply because I think that also points to a certain truth of one's work, of one's vocation.

49:56 And I found that the more I've just been aligned with what naturally interests me and what naturally drives me, the more joy. Okay. But that's something that you found, right? Here's here's what didn't happen. Come read my work and you will find joy. Never. I will never I will never even try to imply that you you might come out and find pain. That's why I don't recommend.

50:30 Right? So that's the point I'm making is what you just said is something that you found. I didn't try to help you find that and I didn't put up a brochure and you know promise this and that. Like I might promise the opposite. If you put a gun to my head and say, "Promise something." I promise you'll probably get more confused by listening to the truth. There's a promise. Like, I'm not promising that, but if you force me to promise I' I'd be more inclined to promise that than promise the the joy stuff, right? So, I'm the most antisy type person you're going to find. I almost don't want you to read my stuff because I feel like it's soiled by having people from the masses read it.

51:17 It's not for you. You shouldn't be allowed, right? I enjoyed it and if I want to put it out, I'll put it out. But even if I put it out, I enjoyed the putting out of it. Okay, that was it. And if it wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't have done it. It wasn't for you. So, like these are very these are not very popular. I mean, that's putting it mildly. These not very popular things to say, right? No one goes on a podcast and says these things.

51:44 And if I was here trying to put on a show, I would have left in the first 3 seconds because I'd be bored. I'm interested in putting on a show. I like truth. I like reality. And I respect those and I would listen to that podcast every single day if I heard one who got on the thing and spoke the truth about whatever his domain was and just this is the truth. I don't care if you like it or not. This is the truth and you can go verify it for yourself. I would listen to that every day on a loop because it'd be so rare that it would be so joyful to hear straight truth about any do. It could be about any discipline that I don't even know anything about and and I may not even like the discipline, but I'd be so appreciative. But once again, this is not my implication that you should be appreciative of what I say. No, you shouldn't. I I I would be appreciative.

52:43 Once again, that would come from me because I like the truth. That's why I would be appreciative. The most important realizations do come from self inquiry and self-discovery rather than through somebody telling you you should think this or you should do this. Sure. I go back to the point you made earlier about the latent DNA and from my own experience I might say you might be underestimating how many people and again it's not it's probably not millions but how many people that's a very common I think that's a very common criticism right that I'm underestimating the number of people like I said I I admitted that myself like it instead of six it might be 1280 whatever I said right so like that's more symbolic than it is the actual number right I mean that's just get beyond the cosmetics yeah don't take it literally don't take it literally right the point is small right small of small of small because even if it is even if it's 100 thousand you know what percentage of the population right So like no matter what number you choose, it is minuscule. Okay. And so like the point I'm making is that like trying to get the masses this mass enlightenment crap. I mean that's the point I'm making. You couldn't get more far from those kind of, you know, teach the public. It's just, you know, it's more against that than it is whether it's 6 or 25 or 296. I don't like democratization. I don't like institutionaliza. Once again, we're talking about preferences here.

54:49 Like, I don't like that. By the way, it is true. It is also true, but I'm not going to force that upon you. But the democratization of things that you know everyone will be this and every or even the majority or even well no it doesn't work that way. There's no truth in groups. So like this whatever the movements are that the world celebrates I hate and what you're saying is also very logical in the sense that you can observe it in the world.

55:31 Yes. If you you should always verify for yourself. Like I mean I might say 16,000 times a week don't listen to me because if you take it on faith that's nonsense. You should be able to observe and verify it for yourself. And if you find that no that's not really that hasn't been my experience and that is then you should go by how you view it not by what I it doesn't matter what I think. way I see it at least how I have benefited from your work is you there are some pointers I follow the pointers the ones I can look within observe come to some understanding there's no prescription involved come to some understanding okay is there another interesting pointer that I'm inherently driven to pursue versus I should do it because Kapal Gupta said it.

56:34 Sure. Dr. Gupta, I wanted to ask you about the mind and particularly the question I had is it took me a while to understand that my mind lies to me. And while I understand that at times when there is a specific situation to which perhaps I'm very vested or attached to I'm not able to spot the mind's lies at that time. Well, but what is your mind composed of?

57:31 What are the contents of your mind? Where do they come from? Who filled them up? Yeah. So, some of it is understanding, my own understanding that I've built up over time. And when the mind is using that understanding, great. There's some practical utility to it. But there are some occasions [Music] when the mind still kind of becomes untethered. And again I have just through my own experience I've realized it is lying but whether it's catastrophizing or whatever else there's also this sense of this is good and that is bad actually that's a big one right every once in a while something happens it's like this is bad but then you know I have also reached this understanding took me decades to reach teach it which is I can't quite predict what is good what is bad like I don't know it might feel that way in the moment but I don't know so what is on this recording right now is a live demonstration of your mind revealing its contents the good and bad thing which you accumulated from the your conditioning and then your mind's reaction to what it accumulated from the world. And that just appeared and that's what your mind is composed of. Now imagine If the conditioning didn't exist or was to a minimum and then [Music] your beliefs and opinions and ruminating about the conditioned contents would therefore also be absent or minimal. Then that would be what your mind would be. So where does all the nonsense begin from? The world.

60:16 It's all garbage. You don't even have to call it garbage if you don't want. But one thing you can't deny is you cannot deny is it's all world. And then you might say, well, if it's all world, what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. But then the question is okay well what is the world composed of? The world is composed of people who are not seeking the truth. Okay. So then you are embibing the content from a place which does not seek the truth. So you can call that good or bad or great or garbage or wonderful or gold or silver. You can call it whatever you want, but you cannot deny. You can argue whether it's garbage or not. It's up to you. But you cannot deny that number one, it's from the world, and number two, it's from a place whose by no means priority is to seek the truth. You call that whatever you like. The problem isn't even that it's from the world. The problem is that it's just not true.

61:43 Yes. But then those two things are inseparable because if there was a world in which the truth was the primary priority, then you could say the problem isn't that it's the world. It's that it's this world, not the other world. But there's no other world here. There's only one world. At least the one in which the human lives only one one world. And so that becomes the world. the only world. So there's no like truth seeeking world as opposed to the non-truthseeking world just as there's no nonprescriptive coaching. That's an oxymoron. I want to better understand this sense of partial control which is this is not the default or the dominant state anymore.

62:39 I don't I don't understand the question. Meaning it's when the mind gets noisy with this kind of nonsense. It's an occasional occurrence around something I'm attached to. No, the mind's always noisy because it's always filled with the pots and pans that are always clunking. You just like one type of clinking sound versus the other. Well, luckily I've been able to squatchch the mind. Like I can turn off thoughts most of the time when I want to.

63:16 Okay. So, it's not making that much noise all the time. Well, I'm not here to tell you what your mind should or not. I'm I'm saying the very encasement is noise. The perception through you through which you are viewing is noise. It doesn't have to talk to you. Are you saying it's noise even when it's not talking?

63:46 Well, when you view things in a certain way, that's informed by the world. Your viewpoints are based upon the substrate of the world. from which your viewpoints that you chose aside. The ground substance of all your beliefs and opinions is the world. Yes, there is a worldly filter that just gets automatically applied. Dr.

64:22 Um, my grandmother used to tell me that each person is born with his or her future written and now I understand it to be about DNA and people are driven by their DNA and I'm mostly thinking about this again in my role as a parent. But is it also the case that even the ability to change, even the ability to Yes.

65:02 Yes. So that is also DNA. Yes. And hence no point in saying anything not as a prescription but as a realization. Sure. Yeah. And you can take that as far as you like. And you know, humans have become used to nonreal things. So they revel and splash and uh you know rejoice in the non realness, you know, in the madeup fabricated things of the world.

65:49 So you can see why this is for nobody. On some sense it's for everybody, but in another sense on a practical level it's for nobody. So like in some ways I stand by the six number, you know, because the deeper you go into truth, the really the closer and closer it is to six. It's just a matter of what depth of truth are you talking about. The deeper you go, the more you get eliminated from the running. This is not meant like I don't know like this not meant for human beings. They're a different brand of creature. That covers the questions I had for you Dr. Gupta. Today I like to listen to a conversation multiple times because as you mentioned some of the layers are only evident afterwards this the third listening or the fourth listening and I wanted to thank you for taking the time really appreciate it. Sure.