# How Experts Bet on Sports · DubClub Co-Founder & CEO Lewis Burik **Creator:** Under The Number Podcast **Platform:** youtube **Duration:** 53m **Source:** https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI ## Summary Lewis Bureick, co-founder and CEO of Dub, discusses the evolving landscape of sports betting and prediction markets, emphasizing the importance of execution in a competitive environment. He highlights the rise of prediction markets, the changing demographics of bettors, and how Dub aims to connect expert cappers with consumers seeking guidance in their betting journeys. - The emergence of prediction markets has transformed sports betting, with a significant focus on sports, accounting for 85% of market volume. - Many new bettors are entering the space, often through non-sports betting avenues, leading to increased interest in traditional sports betting. - Dub serves as a platform connecting sports betting experts (cappers) with consumers, enhancing the betting experience through community and shared knowledge. - The importance of proper bankroll management and price shopping is emphasized for sustainable betting practices. - The regulatory environment is currently favorable, but there are concerns about potential future restrictions. - Dub is focused on improving the consumer app experience to retain users and enhance engagement. - The platform has seen success stories, with some cappers earning seven figures by providing valuable insights to their subscribers. - The competitive landscape is crowded, but Dub believes in its unique position and execution strategy to maintain its edge. ## Transcript [[0:00]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=0s) It's a hot space. So, people will come in and try to take share, get lodged within this growing sector of the creator economy. Running a business is hard. I don't think anything really matters besides how we execute because everybody else is going to have to out execute us. And if we're killing it, good [ __ ] luck. All right, we are back for another episode of Under the Number. You are the first repeat guest in Under the Number history. We've got Lewis Bureick, co-founder and CEO of Dub. Lou, what's going on? [[0:43]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=43s) >> Pleasure to be here. Got my Skybox merch on. Honored. >> Yes. [snorts] >> To be the first repeat guest in the history of the program. Your first appearance was almost exactly two years ago, May 2024. What has changed in the gambling landscape in the two years that have followed? A lot. I think the biggest change is probably the emergence of prediction markets >> as an avenue to trade on sports. like that was not a thing when we taped last time and now you can't open Twitter without seeing Khi and poly market discourse. So that's probably I'm I'm going with a simple answer. The emergence of prediction markets in the world of sports betting and trading, if you will. It's not just a sports betting trend. It's like a consumer finance trend. like Robin Hood, Coinbase, those guys are all placing bets when it comes to prediction markets and getting into sports. Like most of prediction market volume from every data source that I read is sports. [[1:59]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=119s) They got the politics and the weather and the Oscars to have it, but 85% of the volume is sports and they're working really hard. the big guys at least and the no bigs and the profitexes of the world to provide the depth and breadth of market coverage that FanDuel and DraftKings have. So that's like the one mega trend under prediction markets is like these are trying to feel sports booklike in terms of the product they're offering. It's just a different market structure. It really is. [[2:34]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=154s) whereas and and that's not a good or bad thing because I've seen research that suggests that the average better on FanDuel or DraftKings probably is having a higher ROI experience than the average trader on Poly Market and Koshi even if they're exclusively trading on sports. So, everyone's playing. It's a different market structure. I don't know where it's all going to shake out. I think we're starting to see a little bit of a pullback society, culturally in terms of this is too much. So, I don't know where things shake out. The current administration is very supportive of this prediction market sports yes regime. We're starting to see state push back. Minnesota just passed some crazy legislation that says we'll put you in jail if you put Koshi on your phone. So, I I don't know where it's going to land. I do know that people love watching sports. People like having some skin in the game while they're doing so. And I think having more ways to do that is beneficial for consumers. [[3:49]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=229s) >> Yeah. I mean, the gamification of everything is part of that mega trend on the consumer side. I just had Dylan Robbins on the podcast a couple weeks ago. He's a CEO of a company called Lucra. >> Um, and they basically are like the gamification and there's actually a betting component backend that runs in the background powering competitive play at companies like Dave and Busters and Putt Shack and um, Fiveiron Golf groups like that. But what he was telling me is he loved to sports bet for decades and he's just was commenting on the change of the landscape. He's like, "When I was in college, which is not that long ago, my friends wouldn't sports bet because they were like scared that it was it was so taboo." And he's like, "Even I loved to do it, but I wouldn't tell my parents that I had a bookie. I thought that they would think I was a criminal." [[4:40]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=280s) >> He's like, and you can contrast that with what's going on today. It's a different universe. He said this tease up this question. He said that he was trying to get his wife to occasionally like join him betting on the Knicks or whatever just like it'll be more more fun to watch the game, have some skin in the game. And she was never interested. He said he had this crazy aha moment when he got home one evening and his wife is on the couch with an open bet on Koshi on Dancing with the Stars that she's watching on TV. [[5:08]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=308s) >> And he's like, "Oh my gosh, okay. It's here. This is this uh in the interview he said the the lagards have uh entered the arena officially. Have you seen thanks to avenues like that where people like Dylan's wife who have never bet on sports they then get introduced to gambling via prediction markets non-sports has there been more activity broadly into the sports world because of that pathway? It's hard to trace. You know, I think the the benefit or like the the the tailwind for our business is these new platform spend a ton of money and investment on customer education and acquisition. And people like Dylan's wife, Dylan's name, >> nailed it. Uh >> you're listening. [[5:57]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=357s) >> Mega brain. [laughter] They're probably not going to win for sure to start and probably ever. Conventional wisdom suggests like 97% of sports betterers are long-term losers. I see nothing in the data that suggests that's going to like materially deviate with prediction markets. Maybe a little bit, maybe not. So whether they got into the game because it was Dancing with the Stars, or they were betting on the Knicks, at some point, if they want to keep doing this, which is betting on sports, having fun, like sweating it out live with some skin in the game, they're going to want to find a resource or person they trust that can help them do it more profitably, give them a better shot at making money or losing less. And that's where that tailwind of bringing new people into the arena, like when they're ready to actually take it seriously and hopefully make some dough, that's where Dub can come in and be a very value ad part of their betting or trading journey. [[7:05]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=425s) >> Where does Dub fit into this new market map that's changed in the last two years? It's it's all about empowering people to win more together with our app, right? Whether you're trading on Poly Market or you're betting on FanDuel or DraftKings, we're building an app experience to connect the experts in their field, the cappers, with the folks that are willing to pay for their advice that have like betting on sports, enjoy it, want to continue to do it, but want advice from someone they know and trust. And Dub is that connective tissue to both connect the two sides, but also enrich the experience of betting or trading on sports through the app that we've built and we continue to build. [[7:57]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=477s) >> And as a refresher for people, Dub, >> I'm like too deep in the weeds. I already know >> Dub Club is more so of a content marketplace. So, Dub Club is a place where people who have built an audience and a lot of credibility around their expertise as it pertains to sports, sports betting. Like I said, 97% of betterers are losers. The 3% that aren't, historically, it's been really hard for them to make money sports betting because they get limited. The sports book will cut them off. We don't want you to bet with us. You're too good. [[8:31]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=511s) >> Yeah. So, in a world where they can't make a ton of money actually betting on sports, how else can they earn a living from this superpower they have, selling their advice, building a subscription content business? And Dub for that individual is like their business in a box software solution so that they can start and scale a online subscription business from day zero to making lots and lots of money and helping tons of people on their own sports betting journeys. [[9:08]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=548s) >> I can't wait for the day that you're acquired by Only Fans. >> It's it's it's an analogy that I've heard before. I don't think you know they're super inquisitive but [laughter] never know. >> Um so can you you mentioned the people who have built these audiences a lot of times at least two years ago those people had built those audiences in very scrappy >> fractured ways from Twitter threads to Discords all these places is that still the same for people who bring who you were bring onto the platform? For sure. [[9:39]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=579s) It's and and the anyone who's ever built a business on social media knows it is a game of cat and mouse. Like these algos are constantly changing. >> The content strategies that they reward are constantly changing. X, Tik Tok, Instagram, they all have their own business objectives. >> Yep. They all have their own product metrics they're trying to move and they're constantly tinkering with the algorithms to serve those objectives. So for a content creator, for the person who's trying to build their top of funnel for the dub club subscription business, it is like totally trench warfare all the time when it comes to building a top of funnel on social media. [[10:28]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=628s) >> Hamster wheel. >> Totally. There's just you got to do the work first of all. You got to show up every day. That that's the one thing that's consistent across algorithms. The thing that is hamster wheelie too is they're always changing like both from what kind of content is permitted and not to what kind of content is rewarded. Now, Twitter made a bunch of changes in November, moving away from like these userbased like, retweet, scoring sort of algorithm towards a real focus on long form articles, video, dwell time content really getting rewarded and that is like a totally different skill set, >> right? [[11:08]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=668s) >> So, on the fly, creators need to like figure it out and that's challenging. So yes, it's it's probably gotten harder actually on social media versus when we talked two years ago. We are starting to play a more active role in the Dub app experience to have that like free content experience where a Kapper can build trust with a stranger and and show what they're made of over time. That's different as well. And we're going to continue building out that trust, credibility, free content experience so that cappers don't have to be totally at the mercy of these blackbox social media algorithms. [[11:48]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=708s) >> I know people have made some real dough on Dub Club, significant money. What are some of the wilder stories or uh you know, big outcomes for uh for coppers? >> I mean, it's crazy. When I started the company five years ago, it's like I don't know if this is going to work or not. Like we started it because it was a painoint for ourselves. >> Yeah. >> Like my co-founder Andrew Dashbach Dash, [snorts] he was getting into sports betting. He was getting his ass kicked. [[12:15]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=735s) He's like, I found these smart people on Twitter. I just can't get the plays. I'm I'm I'm fighting through the cesspool that is Twitter. I can say Twitter because it was Twitter at this point, not X. This is 2020. Uh, and there's got to be a better way. Like I I'm spending hundreds of dollars on bets and I have people that I know and trust, but I can't get their advice because it just gets lost in the wash. Like, I'm happy to pay a subscription fee just for a better way to get the content. So, that's why we started the company, but we didn't really know how widespread that painoint was. Uh, and it turned out is is a real thing. We have in a few short years we've got millions of users on the subscriber side. We've had dozens of cappers that have earned seven figures on the platform >> that earn seven figures. [[13:11]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=791s) >> Correct. Which tells me they're really solving problems for their subscribers. >> Actually have an edge. >> You don't do that without creating a ton of value for your subscribers and your consumers over time. So, it's been a crazy journey. Is it a is it a massive uh power loss situation where the top guys are just absolutely raking? >> For sure. And I think that's that's every marketplace. Yeah. >> There's a a a small number of individual entrepreneurs that drive a ton of the volume like any other business or marketplace. [[13:46]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=826s) >> Yeah. No doubt. Um how do these cappers I'm sure there's no oneizefits-all at all. How do they prepare? How do they research? What is the typical thing? Because I I would think like let's take an example. Sometimes I think these guys are like uh our boy Ryan Rillo just grinding games with a notepad and they watch everything in the NBA or everything in College Hoops or whatever their specialty is and they just it's like stare, watch, consume, figure it out, take your notes. [[14:18]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=858s) And on the other end, there could be guys who basically don't watch the games and they're, you know, moneyball guys and they have some sort of a, >> you know, a model that they're just like, I'm going off of this. How do you see it? What's the spread? >> It's all It's pun intended. >> Pun intended. >> It's all over the map. It's And and each capper is kind of selling a different product, right? Some people they're selling their community and their vibes just as much as they're selling the pics. [[14:44]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=884s) >> Yeah. And some people are like super pixon. I don't want to talk to you. Here, here are my plays. Smell you later. There's no back and forth. There's no community. It's all over the map. There's a few different ways to really handicap. Some people, to your point, and it depends on the market as well. If you're in a market where there's not a ton of structured data, for example, like UFC, we've got a lot of people who are really sharp in UFC because they're like tape junkies and styles make fights. They know matchups, grappler, brawler, like they when they're placing a bet, a bookmaker is moving a number. [[15:26]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=926s) Not because it's so much volume, but it's like we really respect that person's analysis and if they think Chimay is over valued at this price, like they're going to adjust their price because they're like a fundamental investor where they're studying the tape and have a point of view on the risk and the probability of a given outcome. So that's like one extreme like the tape junkie. It's definitely a thing I think in those markets in particular where there's not a ton of structured data versus a sport like baseball, right? [[15:58]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=958s) >> Where it's like that you can slice things a million different ways. There are, you know, these modelbased betters where they've got their own models uh that may be different or they think they can exploit gaps in how sports books model things. There are correlation betterers where they think some books or venues may not properly price correlated events. you know, the classic and a lot of the the books. It's again, talk about cat and mouse, they get sharpen sharper over time, but Travis Kelce over receiving yards and Patrick Mahomes over passing yards are very highly correlated. And there was a world in which the sports books weren't very good at pricing that correlation risk. And some younger venues still aren't very good at it. and you can exploit that weakness from a a market maker. [[16:54]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1014s) The other like school of of sports betting generally speaking is just like a strict expected value farm. You know, sports books are sports betting is a very inefficient market generally speaking versus traditional financial markets. For any given bet, you can get the action down at 15 different venues depending on what state you're at. And there are specific venues that are sharper in different markets. Like FanDuel is amazing at pricing NBA player props, for example. So if you see a price for an NBA player prop on, you know, Jaylen Brunson assist, that's probably a bad example because he's a headline guy, but I don't know, Kobe White points. [[17:36]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1056s) It's one price at FanDuel and you're getting way better number at Caesars. Not to call out Caesars, that's telling you like, let's go in. uh there's just a ton of opportunities for that sort of like positive expected value hunting when there's a big variance between what you think the sharp probability is versus where you can actually bet it. >> Y >> and that's that's probably the most tried and trueue method for long-term profitability. Also not a way that a lot of people love to bet when you're betting the third guy off the bench in an NBA game. [[18:10]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1090s) >> Yeah. >> 61 >> to get over three points. >> But it's it's it's a profit cruncher. >> So you mentioned what you talked about earlier content company marketplace. You're not dealing with the actual transactions of the the bets that are being placed. You have partners for these things. for somebody who's operating a lean, you know, emerging company a couple years in, >> that's dub club >> being dub. Yeah. [[18:40]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1120s) >> How have you guys fit in and been received by the giants, by draft kings, FanDuel, I don't know, the cow poly market situation now and then also >> the next tier of underdog prize picks these groups like how have you gotten along? There are a lot of people like you starting companies in this space right now. What can an entrepreneur or founder expect when navigating these waters where you can be value additive very quickly or where you might get totally crowded out? Tell me about that. [[19:13]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1153s) >> So, we we've really been focused since day one on we're building the destination where cappers and fans win more together. That's our mission. That's our vision. That's what we're doing. We haven't been as focused on like those businessto business commercial partnerships. My position has always been like you focus on the end user and delivering them an epic experience and good things fall out of it. And that's been the case like we've had conversations we've started lightweight partnerships with these bigger giants in the space. And the reason they're interested in talking to us is because we have this epic user base that's super active, that's super engaged, that's opening the app, clicking in 12 times a day. So I think my guiding strategy has always been like keep the first things first. Focus on enriching the experience for your core users, the cappers and the fans. And then we can opportunistically explore partnerships where it makes sense with these big dogs in the space and and we've started standing up some lightweight things with different players. But it only works if the core machine is humming and that's that's always where our focus lies. You talked about the uh regulatory environment right now uh being pretty good for this type of situation under the current administration. Donald Trump Jr. 1789 Capital is an investor employee market and an adviser at >> Khi. [[20:53]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1253s) >> Uh they're obviously they're down for this this type of thing right now. How much do you worry? You mentioned earlier Minnesota, they've just did this crazy hardline [clears throat] anti-prediction markets uh thing recently and that's our boy Tim Walls. And uh do you worry that there is this short window where you have to capitalize before potential major backlash if there's a big swing to the other end of the spectrum in the next presidential election? Do you worry like how much do you look at macro stuff like I know it's totally out of your control, but how much do you think about it? [[21:29]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1289s) >> Not a lot. To your point, it's out of our control. Yeah. >> Here, here are the things I know. >> I know sports are only becoming more culturally important. >> I think that's no doubt about that. >> I think Skybox is betting on that. I'm betting on that. >> Yeah. >> I think that's a one-way trend for a lot of reasons. I think people generally like risk, they like betting, they like having skin in the game. So, as sports I think that's a one-way trend, too. I mean, I'm sure historically there have been examples where society becomes more conservative for a period of time, but I would say that generally speaking, that's probably a blips on a radar and it's a one-way trend towards more risk and financial experimentation. [[22:24]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1344s) So, that's good for Dub Club. And the third thing that I believe to be true is most people are on their own, left to their own devices, not going to have success trading in these markets because of how they're structured. And I think Dub is well positioned to help that losing better level up because they're going to want to continue to engage in sports betting or sports trading. and they got a much better shot at having a healthy relationship with it using a platform like Dub. But I don't know exactly where the regulatory changes are going to happen. Uh and and we've got a business where we're not directly exposed to it because we live on the content world and and away from the actual transactions, >> right? So, we're kind of insulated from the immediate regulatory risk, but it uh I think we're on the right side of important one-way trends. There was something just last week where Mark Cuban, I think he was on a front office sports podcast, was talking about how he kind of took this middle position where he said, "Everyone's saying, you know, the gambling and gamification and prediction markets are going bonkers and people are very and some people are extremely concerned about what this means and want to regulate it all the way down >> and you've got scandals in the NBA and like some very bad press." [[23:50]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1430s) >> He said that he thinks that the actual problem are just prop bets. He's like, "You need to take a a measured like nuanced approach to this." He's like, "The props are the problem. >> The rest of it, not so much." And my personal position is like, I do totally think that there's some problems, particularly with the youngest, the like non-regulated, you know, 16-year-olds doing all this stuff. I don't think that's great at all. I'm also a very pro- free market libertarian guy. I don't want anyone to be I don't want Tim Waltz telling me you can't sports gamble. So, I found myself in this middle camp, but I'm curious what you make of like a Mark Cuban comment like that. [[24:26]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1466s) >> I think the what happened in the NBA has probably been happening forever. >> No, no question. >> Almost certainly it's been happening forever. The only reason it was exposed is because now the online sports books are licensed and they work with federal regulators to snuff out bad actors and make the stuff stop. So, is that a good or bad development for society? I would think it's probably good, but it creates bad press. Whereas in the old world where it just happened quietly and the integrity of the game was quietly destroyed, now it's bad press, but like we're actually there are very sophisticated data scientists making a lot of money sniffing out this sort of issue. So, I think part of it is just because it's now a regulated industry, you catch more stuff and that's good. [[25:24]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1524s) Uh, and the prop bet thing like it's certainly a market that can be more easily manipulated, but does that mean we shouldn't do it? That I that seems heavy-handed. I certainly wouldn't be a fan of that as a regular proper. >> Yeah. What uh what did you make of the guy who bet on himself to take out Maduro? >> That's crazy. [laughter] That's crazy. I mean, that's uh but that's a good example, right? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's when you've got the regulators [snorts] and the exchange or market, whatever you want to call it, working together, you can like snuff out that stuff >> easily. [[26:04]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1564s) >> Easily. It's just dumb. It's stupid. It's You're not going to get away with it. >> But that's crazy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Tell me about the typical person these days, if it's changed at all, maybe it's been consistent, who joins Dub as a user, not as a cap or >> consumer, >> as the consumer. What is their cadence? Are they somebody who, you mentioned, there's different almost like markets for them? Do they want to just enjoy and join a community of people who love watching tennis and they've got this great jungle guide who's their uh, you know, bookie and then they're going to be able to chat with people and like be in this community? or is it somebody who's like, I want more volume and I want more exposure and I want to learn about new markets. Like, tell me about the different camps because I'm sure there's not one answer for this. [[26:45]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1605s) >> There's a ton of different user personas that we serve. You kind of nailed it already. It's like I like to think about a a a spectrum, right? On the far left of the spectrum is like my sister-in-law who's got $10 in her DraftKings account at any point in time. She's betting 15 like parlays exclusively 25 cents to win 50 bucks, right? And and what is she looking for from a dub club? She's looking for a way to get started in terms of which actual props to include in her parlay. She's looking for oh a ideally an easy way to fill out the slips because it can take a long time to punch in 15 different >> Mhm. [[27:28]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1648s) >> points assist. She's looking for a way to track once it's live. So, who how can you like keep track of all that? Where did I bet this? Who did I bet on, etc. She's probably looking for community and vibes because you're going to lose a lot more than you're going to win if that's the style of betting you like to do. So, like, are you getting value out of the experience itself? That's one end of the spectrum. [[27:51]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1671s) On the other end of the spectrum, you have kind of what I described earlier where it's like people that are really trying to make money every week, every month, finding these positive expected value spots and getting as much liquidity as you can down. So, our task is how do we create a product that serves all those content types really well? And that's that's not a an easy challenge, but >> there's a lot that we've built and are continuing to build to make to add value for people across that spectrum. [[28:29]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1709s) >> Say a little bit about your competitors. What's going on? What's the latest? Who's emerging? Who's falling away? What's what's going on? >> I I I'm like old school. I don't think we have any competitors. I think we're on our best day. Nobody can sniff us. You know there there are folks who it's a spot it's a hot space. So people will come in and try to take share get lodged within this growing sector of the creator economy. [[28:59]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1739s) Some folks more like general they serve a bunch of different categories of creator. Yep. others that are more like us, vertically focused on sports and sports betting content creators. But it's hard. Running a business is hard. Uh so I don't think anything really matters besides how we execute because everybody else is going to have to outexecute us. And if we're killing it, good [ __ ] luck. I love it. So you you just said we're specific to sports, but in our last interview two years ago, saying specific to sports is almost an oxymoron because you've got people with esports picks and Overwatch and chariot racing in Estonia. [[29:42]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1782s) Like there's the whole gamut. >> Tell me about some of the less obvious, you know, it's not just the NFL happening on Dub Club. >> For sure. I think when we we started 2021, so we were kind of riding the postcoid wave where everybody was at stuck at home. KBO was where I was going with that where it's like this was the first sport to come back. Korean baseball organization. I can see the puzzled look in your eyes. [[30:09]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1809s) >> I know what KBO is >> and it's still like a big thing. Uh, so this is overnight Korean baseball, I think, because they were the first sport back, they got a ton of love where it's like, "Okay, we got to bet on something. Let's get smart on this market." Baseball's a relatively, like we said earlier, there's a lot of structured data. So, if you're a modelbased capper, there's a lot to sink your teeth into, right? [[30:34]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1834s) >> Lefty, righty, pitch mix, weather. We've got multiple creators on Dub that are just weather people. They're not providing any advice. >> It's a meteorologist. >> Literally [laughter] like here is the weather and these microclimates that are MLB stadiums and hugely popular. >> Wow. >> Shout out Kevin Roth. >> Wow. The weather guy. >> The weather the sports betting weather guy. So those are like fun micro niches. Esports is popular. WNBA popping off. [[31:06]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1866s) Can you tell me how esports I I don't know a thing about esports. I how in the world is that co like cohesive or um is there enough continuity across these games that you can actually bet on them at all? >> I wish I could tell you. I can't but I know that it's super popular. >> Which games? >> League of Legends. Very popular cappers that are like esports guys and gals. >> Yeah. What else? What are some of the other niche ones? [[31:32]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1892s) >> Was there a lot of action around the Olympics? Yes, but not as much as esports. I like finding like there's also even within the big sports, if you're like not a super hardcore better, you don't realize how many different ways there are to bet an NBA game or an MLB game. And this is an area where like FanDuel and DraftKings are have such an amazing product where you can bet three points, points, rebounds, assists, total bases, walk to get a walk, strike out, like the the markets that pop up when you have these content creators that are constantly scouring the board to see where they can get an edge is like even if there's only one sport being played on a given day, it's MLB. [[32:22]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1942s) you open up your draft games account, there's like literally 200 different markets available for every game. So, we see a lot of we see way more volume on on props than we do on like the sides, totals, money line, and and each sport has its own niches that pop up every year. Like I'm seeing a lot of at the beginning of this year. This is a good example. People love betting on home runs. [[32:52]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=1972s) Low probability, good payouts, fun sweat. When you hit a two a twole home run parlay, it's like a freaking awesome feeling. We had some other creators, especially early this year where the weather was really bad, popping off with no home run bets. So you're not home run bet. You're betting on a specific player to hit a home run typically. Yeah. >> These guys are betting on no home runs in the game. So, you pick the spot where you like the pitching matchups and the wind's blowing in and it's 47 degrees and that market was getting a ton of traction and printing a bunch of tickets. So every year, every season, there's a new like micro market that starts trending and then typically the the book will like sharpen up and and eat away that edge and then it's on the capper to find the next the next one. [[33:42]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2022s) >> What was Brent Musberger's uh gambling media company? >> One of the great announcers of all time by the way. >> No question about that. >> Maybe number one. >> Yeah, legend. Wandering eyes, but a legend. [snorts] I think Keith Jackson may be number one, but Brent Mossberger is on the Rushmore >> for sure. >> Yeah. >> And a gambling sicko. >> Totally. His lines. I mean, when he would say, you know, it it's a 30point game with 6 minutes left and he would go and for our friends in the desert, this game is over. [laughter] He was right back in. [[34:15]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2055s) >> Significant to some. >> Yeah, significant to some. But he has this gambling based media work. >> Um I don't honestly know what happened. I think there was an exit. I don't know if it was a home run. I have no idea. Why do you guys not do that? Why a little bit like why would you not take inspiration from something like that from something like bar stool and then they're you know betting cave and do these partnerships and like why is there not a live dub club show? Why or live or not? Why is there not a show? We're starting to It's It's a great call out. [[34:47]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2087s) Like what makes us special is the focus and the creators, right? We're focused on this space. We're focused on a very specific user base and demo. We've got these amazing creators and influencers that command these huge audiences and they're good on camera. They're good talkers. They have done YouTube. They've done live streaming built into their skill set. So, we're doing a better or we're starting to do a more intentional job of like putting a spotlight on them and building content around that. So, in this very studio, once a week, I do a live stream. We call it DCTV Dub Club television where we go live on X and YouTube. We get three killer cappers that are very video first to just work down the board. It's MLB Wednesday. Get away today. Let's pull up an underdog and work through the whole board. What do you like? What matchups are interesting to you? And the reactions been like really good. People are engaged. They bring their audiences. [[35:48]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2148s) We crosspollinate. There's nothing that converts better than video. And seeing a capper work through their process, show off how smart they are. Builds trust, builds credibility, and their existing subs are popping in too. >> Right. Exactly. It's not. It's like, oh, this is part of the the package where I can kind of see this guy or gal in a lab. >> I mean, I think you should go more than once a week. >> I agree. >> And I think that you should look at it as like what's on even if you take [snorts] it as simple as what's on prime time TV today. it's Thursday night football and there's an and I guess Mia wouldn't be the best example but things that are overlapping and literally make it look like PTI or around the horn and you and Dash are the host talking through this docket and pipe in via live stream you know uh Riverside Zoom whatever these things your guys your top performing cappers for that specific sport and that's a specific game >> that that is the contest but uh >> go listen to DCTV I run a show at Wednesday 9:00 a.m. Central. [[36:48]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2208s) >> Okay. >> Every week >> you're brick by brick. We're working towards this this DC uh network. >> Yes. >> So you mentioned video is the best conversion. If you could go back in time, which every founder in a lot of cases wishes they had a time machine. What would be the growth levers that you would pull in 2022, 23, 24, whatever now knowing what you know today? What would you have doubled down on? >> The app experience. The app was kind of a secondass citizen for us for a long time versus just desktop. Just we built a lot of functionality for creators and I don't think that was wasted time by any stretches of the imagination. Like we are their business operating system. [[37:34]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2254s) We need to have all the tools for them to succeed. Pricing, packaging, CRM, marketing suite, etc. But I think we did not invest deeply enough early enough in the consumer app experience so that when that consumer subscribes to their favorite cap on Dub Club, not all the pressure is on the capper because they love the experience of batting tailing and discovering on Dub Club itself. That's where you really become sticky and become a wagon and take a lot of the heat off the capper who's going to have good days and bad days. If the experience of betting, tailing, discovering on Dub Club is freaking epic, that consumer is hanging around longterm and they're finding another capper that they like on Dub Club for the next year, two years, 5 years of what would constitute success for Dub. Do you see that being the business as is growing up or the business growing more out being expanding into more diversified offerings and media whatever these different like arms versus let's just add and stack bricks on what we're currently doing as our core thing. I think the core mechanic of the business will remain unchanged because it's ricket and epic. It's like we give these influencers a link to go make a bunch of money for themselves >> and for other people. [[39:10]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2350s) >> Yeah. Yeah. And and their clients. >> Yeah. >> Great. Great call out. Win more together >> and in return like they bring a ton of amazing consumers into our ecosystem. They download the app, they start clicking buttons. Like we need to amplify that motion because it's just like magic. It's negative cost of acquisition for consumers and we need to give cappers all the tools to win and consumers all the tools to have an amazing experience with that capper they subscribe to. [[39:44]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2384s) So I think like that's the first thing I'd say is just keeping the franchise the franchise keeping first things first. There are experience or opportunities for us to be smart about going out a bit and like hardening revenue and partnerships in different ways. But those only make sense if the core mechanic is humming and that marketplace is thriving and we're onboarding great new supply and we're giving consumers a better and better experience over time. [[40:15]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2415s) What is on the Dub Club Hall of Fame for most outstanding or incredible picks over the last five years? Wow, that's that's tough. I mean, there's your brain goes to like what were the biggest hits, right? Where the longest odds, >> but I'm like a boring better, you know? I I like camp bers that stack a little bit of profitability. >> Let's talk about both. I want to hear I want to hear the home runs as well. [[40:48]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2448s) >> It's like how how's your how's your It's like asking who's your favorite kid. It's >> You don't even have to name the handicapper. You can if you want to shout them out. I want to know just like what's an example of just an insane this guy bet five bucks and returned X. It feels like every week there's one of those in the home run parlay markets where someone's betting a four-legg home run parlay and then they're turning five buck, you know, flyer parlay. This is a fifth of a unit for me. Just have fun with it into 15 grand or 20 grand. Like we see those all the time. Those are fun. And the no home run parlies have juicy odds too. So those are also fun in a different way. But like on Wednesday when we did a live stream, every time I do a live stream, we cook together a a collab parlay of all the guests that are on and it was like everything everybody said was spot on. Four four fourleggger. [[41:46]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2506s) Trey Savage over strikeouts. Juan Sodto hit a home run. Pete Alonzo two plus total bases. Jonathan Aranda two plus hits, runs or RBI's. [applause] casual 17xer just hooked it up no sweat. It's like, wow, these guys are freaking smart. And obviously, you're going to when you're betting that way, you're going to lose more than you're going to win, >> of course, >> numerically. But that's a great example. It's like I left that stream. I was like, I think this is going to win. [[42:11]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2531s) Like, these guys are smart. That was like very well researched and we did. Uh, so that's I I'll use that one. And then there's just so many cappers that are just like grinders, too, that like I said before, I just like trust them. Like if my grandma was like, I want to do sports betting, what should I do? I would just s like go tell the DFS dojo job. Go tell A1 Fantasy. Like go tell B Sharper and like, you know, practice the proper bankroll management strategies. you know, you're only betting 1% of your bank roll on any given bet, but I know if you do everything they tell you to do at the end of the month and at the end of the year, you're going to be up. And those are also like great success stories where you just see this cat and mouse game where they're continuing to evolve the way they research and stack green months, green seasons, green years. Like, yes, that's what it's all about. Some of the operas who are making seven figures or have made seven figures on the platform, are they kind of whales themselves, are there any examples of that where they're betting big unit sizes? Well, it's tough because if they're beating up FanDuel and DraftKings like their action is no good like that. That is the other dynamic that is weird about sports and the traditional online sports book model is they'll cut you off. You're too good, you're out. Yeah. And they're like pretty short leash, most of them. And that's in many cases is why they come to Dub Club. I need a way to make money. I can't really make money. I'm limited to $7 on fanatics. [[43:58]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2638s) >> Wait, what do you mean by that? Limited to $7 on fanatics. >> Uh, so if you're good, better, all these sports books have extremely sophisticated risk teams, right? Right. And it's not just about pricing the game or the player prop. It's about the players on the betting side. >> So if you're good or they they detect that as a capper, as a better, they will say your max bet with us is $10. Your max bet with us is $50. Wow. [[44:29]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2669s) >> The most extreme case, >> which is rare, is your money is no good here. We're shutting down your account. >> My god. Not because they did anything wrong, but because they have an edge versus the book and the book does not want to play against them. So in that case, you you are smart like you want to make a living off that sports betting intelligence offering a dub club subscription is a way to do it. [[44:58]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2698s) That's another when I talk about market structure being different the prediction market market structure is that that does not support that model where you're betting against the house and the house can catch off at any given point in time >> because prediction markets is someone's winning someone's living >> times right >> the difference with prediction markets where it's still hard to beat an average Joe you're betting against very sophisticated ated counterparties. [[45:28]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2728s) Generally speaking, >> I just put in the newsletter last week that on poly market 0.1% of betters have won 67% of profits. >> That's not Brent and Lewis going back and forth. It's Lewis and Brent against Suana. >> Literally, I was going to say God has a citadel. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that that's a different kind of challenge. >> Yeah. And uh in many ways the sportsbook model actually better serves the recreational better because they can offer boosts. [[45:58]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2758s) They can offer promos. They can offer ways to keep someone engaged. Whereas in a picture market it it there's not that repeated game dynamic. It is every market and every trade is optimizing for that particular mark and trade whereas online sports books they they think more about the lifetime value of a customer and things of that nature keeping people on on the the merry go round. I don't think there's that mechanism in prediction markets because the exchange the market under the couchy like they don't have enough margin to really like invest in consumer retention in the same way. So I don't know where it all shakes out >> when you talk about uh like talking to the grandma example of managing your bank roll do this throwway. [[46:51]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2811s) What are the two what would you say to somebody or what do you see when somebody says wait I want to kind of get into this or I started sports betting and then things just fall apart. They have no strategy and they're like you know what screw this I'm out on the flip side. So what do you see when that failure case happens or or it just doesn't work at all. predominant that that is the most likely outcome >> I'm sure and so how as a two-parter question when you're telling hey yeah you should join club and I want you to do this the fun sustainable way I'm not trying to don't get cleaned out don't do anything dumb this is how you can actually make this really fun for you what is your like guide for more fun sustainable management of a bank roll and strategy >> the three like most basic fundamental principles would be odd shopping bankroll management And I'm going to throw in tailing someone who knows what they're doing to start in in very self- serving, but I think true guidance. So, I forget which one I said for first, but I would say price shopping is the first one. So, again, you want to bet on the Cubs to win today. You're in the state of Illinois. [[47:59]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2879s) You can place that bet on literally 15 different places. And at those 15 different places, there's probably 10 different prices. >> Mhm. So, you need to go and place that where you get the best price because if you're being serious about this and you want to make money, you got to get the best price on every single trade. And we've built a lot into the product to make that easier because who wants to open 15 different apps and search Cubs? [[48:26]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2906s) Not me. That sucks. That takes the fun out of it. We call that odd shopping, price shopping. That's crucial. Second would be like proper bankroll management. Anyone who knows anything about probability and statistics, even if you have an edge, you're going to go through periods where you're going to lose a lot in a row. And you need to be able to whether that variance because you're only betting 1% of your bankroll on any of the bet. So that's like classic bankroll management strategy. [[48:59]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2939s) There's more sophisticated like unit sizing algorithms where you know higher risk bets should be a lower percentage of your bankroll. But the general best practice is if you're betting a coin flip which most sports books is priced at minus 110 110 bucks to win 100 that should be 1% of your bankroll. You're a thousand got $1,000 across all your sports books betting $10 on every minus 110 bet. That that is probably the number one thing that people just screw up. They they deposit $50 to DraftKings and their first bet is $25. It's like, okay, you lost your first two bets. Game over. Wasn't that fun? Right. [[49:40]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=2980s) And then the third thing is follow someone who knows what they're doing. Like research. Go to Dub Club, check the different cool collections we have that are real, that are based on real data. This is an NBA capper. This is a long shot capper. This is someone who does straight bets only. someone who does home run parallets that's based on real data. Figure out what markets you like to bet on and go subscribe to someone that is a good fit for you because they will give you a better shot generally speaking versus you winging it or coin flick coin flipping. You do all those three things, you should probably stay on the ferris wheel a lot longer, have more fun, win more together. [[50:17]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=3017s) >> There you go. There are a few iconic sports veters and and gamblers in the public eye. I'm thinking Phil Mickelson, >> you know, people with that level of appetite. >> Who are some other people at that level? I mean, I know MJ loves to gamble and play cards and all that >> very famously. Who are some other people, high profile people who like lowkey or not, actually love to bet on sports and are very serious about it and throw real money around? [[50:43]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=3043s) >> I'm going to go to the exact opposite of the name you threw out, Phil. Nicholson. Do you know who Billy Walters is? >> I don't think so. He's like the godfather of sophisticated sports betting and he hates Phil Mickelson. >> Oh, that's known. There was a whole book. >> There was Yeah, he's got a great book. There was like a lawsuit. Phil Mickelson is a fish. He's a big losing better. >> Yes. >> Respectfully, >> he says that he's lost >> like hundreds of millions. [[51:12]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=3072s) >> It's crazy. He needs to subscribe to somebody's dub club and practice proper. Let's get Let's get Phil on Dub already. Phil >> $200. >> Not as not as a capper. Let's be clear. >> Certainly not as a capper. >> Well, Billy Walters would be a great capper. He's he's like wrote the book on finding an edge versus market makers. Like literally wrote a book about it. And you should read it if you're interested in the space. It's because it kind of walks through the mentality and the discipline and the approach required to be a winner long term because you really can be like it's it's much easier to be a long-term winner in sports betting than trying to day trade in stocks, you know, and and it's a lot more fun, too. But even even though that's true, most the vast majority of people deposit, run through the deposit and they're off the ferris wheel. [[52:09]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=3129s) >> Next big rock that Dub Dub Club faces needs to move and [snorts] uh what's on the other side of that? >> It's all about growth for us de delivering that better consumer experience in the app. How can we take this amazing gift which is the capper and the consumer interacting with the app and just make it an epic irreplaceable experience. And on the other side of delivering that outcome, [clears throat] that's a sick business where you have people in the app every day watching sports, discovering cappers, sweating out their bats. That's a world I want to live in where Dub Club is the hub, the destination for the tens of millions of Americans that bet on sports every week. [[52:58]](https://youtu.be/NzTqqSAuiTI?t=3178s) >> All right, Lewis. Well, if uh history has has set us up for another check-in in 2028, >> two years. Two years. We'll see you then. >> Thanks, dude. >> Brent, what a pleasure. Thank you to Dunkin Donuts. I feel like I got more and more caffeinated throughout the program. Uh this was a blast. >> Hi, Ang Pod. I love it. Go dub club. Go skybox.