John Korir's Coach, Ron Mann: Elite Marathon Coaching Strategies for Every Runner

0:00 In this episode, we're going to hear from Ron Man, elite coach to John Courier about what it takes to become a fast marathoner. All right, so I'm on here with Coach Ron Man. Thank you so much for joining me today. Oh, you're so welcome. I'm so glad to have an opportunity to meet you and get to know you a little better. Oh, I I love that you're saying that. I feel super honored that you, you know, agreed to come on my podcast. and I want to kind of hop into your background to start with a little bit. Currently, you're coaching John Courier and One More Athlete. Obviously, everyone knows John Cer now. He just won the Boston Marathon. He won the Chicago Marathon last year and he's establishing this for himself. When I did his shakeout run with him in Boston, he told me he was going to win Boston. I ran with him in Chicago prior to the race and he has the confidence. He said he was going to win that too and everything is coming true.

1:02 And so I'm very excited to kind of hop into seeing what his training looks like. But before we do that, let's talk about you a little bit and tell me how you got involved in run coaching and then also coaching these athletes. Wesley career, his John's brother that had won Boston as well. Well, my background goes way back and and those of that are watching the podcast, if they're really interested in what my background is, they can read the book. It's called Running Up the Mountain, which is about Northern Arizona University and the and the elevation of that program to where it is today. But the beginning of that book starts out with who and what I am. And I started as a high school runner in Phoenix, Arizona. Was recruited to Northern Arizona University. And when I went to Northern Arizona University for the first time as a 18-year-old freshman, I moved into the dorms a little bit early. This was 1968. And I moved into the dorms early.

2:12 And at that time there were some distance runners elite distance runners training in Flagstaff. there were four of them that I got to know quite well and all of them were Olympians already chosen for the 1968 Olympic Game. So my early introduction into high level running included Billy Mills who was the Olympic gold medalist at 10,000 m in 1964. George Young who won the 1968 bronze medal in the steeplechase. Conrad Nightingale who was a steeplechase also. And the the fourth one Billy Mills John Bill who was the fourth? Come on. I'm not getting the fourth one. I'll get it in a minute. Anyway, but those runners were very influential in my training thoughts early on in my life. And then as I was in Flagstaff, Arizona as a coach there, the idea of using altitude training became prevalent and so many people were moving to Flag Staff and training. And one of those was a Kenyan distance runner that was Ibraham Hussein who was training for the Boston Marathon. He won the Boston Marathon previously but he came and trained under me for one year and then he ended up winning his third Boston Marathon. So I that I was my first Boston Marathon champion. Then when a few years later a young man contacted me from Germany and he said, "I would like to come and train in Flagstaff. I'm looking for a place to live. Can you find me a place to live?"

4:09 And I said, "Certainly, you can come and live with me." His name was Derer Balman. Deer Balman ended up winning the gold medal in 1992 at 5,000 meters for Germany. So all of these people gave me different influences. So I got a the influence of American distance training through the Americans. I got the induction into Kenyan training from Ibraham. And then I got the induction into the European value system and training methods through deer Balman. So, I I'm sort of a a porge pot of my training methods and I, so I I then, became very involved in USA track and field and had the privilege of of of working with Joe V. Hill and and all of the people that and a guy by the name of Dave Martin who is a a physiologist that wrote the great book Distance Running and and he's a research physiologist or was so I got all of this information from a variety of different people and so I I begin to put that into my training methods at the university level and then postcolgiately into the work with marathoners.

5:32 That's super interesting and sounds very well-rounded because it seems like everybody that you have had some kind of influence on or or spoken with suddenly they are winning. So my other question is since you know that I'm always curious about the anatomy of elite runners and my husband and I talk about it all the time that there's such a little separation between the runners that run the 205s and the 202s for example. So in your opinion what's the what is it that separates those from the ones that are just a couple of minutes behind? Well, I I I think that I have a very clear philosophy. It's mind, body, and soul. And that makes a runner.

6:21 And you have to have all three. You've got to have the mind. You got to be intelligent enough to run your race plan. you've got to have a very fit body. And then thirdly, and probably one of the things that was impressive about John's win and it it signified what the career family is made of is that when he fell, it it it didn't cross his mind that he wasn't going to finish that race. He got up and persevered. And so Wesley, one of the early conversations that Wesley and I had about the Chicago Marathon when he got second, I said, "Wesley, you could have won that race."

7:08 He said, "I know, but my mind broke at 8 18 miles." And so he he couldn't lock in. So then when he got to Chicago to Boston that next spring and it was a hot day and he was 2 minutes back, he went into that spot and went into his soul and and if you talk to Wesley, he would say, "I prayed my way home at the Boston Marathon." And so he you've got to have that inner strength that tells you I'm going to win and I'm going to run fast. And then I guess my follow-up question with that is when you coach your runners, you're obviously doing something but giving them just running workouts. How do you make sure that they have that soul part that they are strong like that? Well, that's an interesting question. is that the athlete you somebody asked me a long time ago, what events do you coach? And I said, I don't coach events. I coach people. And so each person is a little bit different.

8:20 John is different than Wesley is. Wesley is different than Edwin is. All of the runners that I work with are a little bit different. So, you got to find their sweet spot and what it is that motivates them and and where their soul is and and that's one of the things, you know, I was asked early on, you know, how did John career make the great jump from 205 down to 202? Well, he we had to teach him how to win. And so that's why we went to the Boiler Maker race last year and then on to the Falmouth race last year and he won both of those. So then he had a a position of knowing I know how to win. And so up until that point he had run well but he didn't go to that extra place. And so you've got to provide opportunity for them and then find their soul and and get to know them, you know. And one of the neat things about coaching John he he's got such a sweet soul in that I I'm I'm not sure you know this, but so he had a child a year ago, February, little girl. And so he named his little girl after my wife Charlene. So that tells you what a great soul he has and his heart for people.

9:57 And so when after Chicago each year, John comes to my house and we just hang out and I get to know him. So you you've got to know the person and coach the person and you don't just write workouts. Workouts there's there's a thousand people who know it. And now that you've got Straa and Garmin Connect and all of that, everybody knows what everybody is doing. There is no magic.

10:30 It's about coaching the individual athlete and knowing them and knowing what they need. I love this. And I'm going to hop into that a lot more in a little bit because obviously a lot of my audience wants to know some practical tips that we can take away from this conversation and apply for our own running which you know makes it a little bit tough because coaching us how to win. There's probably not much of an opportunity but like I said we'll hop into that but before we do that a little bit more about elite runners. So when you see an elite runner, say you see a really fast Kenyon person that is currently say a 205 runners, what are some key indicators or inherent qualities that you see in an athlete that suggests that there is potential to gain more you know those crucial couple of minutes called true grit. You got to find somebody that has true grit and they they have that inner strength and and that's something you you you throw a workout at them that that they're incapable of doing and then they do it and then you you give them feedback that see you could do this when you didn't think you could. And it was it it's a situation where you just put them in situations where they've got to learn to be hard on themselves and and not give up and and you mentioned that, you know, how do you teach them to win when the normal runner isn't going to win the marathon? Well, their target time is their winning, you know, and and so you you set a a time out there. I have a a a nephew who is trying his first marathon and and he's a 4hour guy and he's a great young man and so he said, " Uncle Ron, will you will you just give me tips?" And I said, "Sure, because I know his heart. He he'll be a 4 hour if it's the last thing he does.

12:48 He'll he'll die trying to get that 4hour mark. So what you look for is that that inner inner strength. And so for the normal runner, that's something that you have to work on on a daily basis. And one of my favorite books is is make your bed. And it's about you get up in the morning and the first thing you do is make your bed. So, you know, and and I learned early on from George Young. George Young was a a very very tough man. And he he learned, okay, you get up in the morning, it doesn't matter whether it's snowing or raining or what it is, I'm going out there and I'm going to do my run, six mile run.

13:34 And each morning he would try and run his six mile run a little bit faster than he did the last time. So it's a matter of competing with yourself. Yes, I guess. And not having excuses and copouts, right? Because when I was in Kenya, I was talking to Ven Caputo and I just wanted to know what is it that they think about when things get hard? Because obviously when I go out and I run, I think mentally maybe I'm a little bit weaker than the average runner. I'm not very competitive with myself when it comes to running and everything else I do, lawyering or whatever, I'm very competitive. But when it comes to running, I'm very forgiving with myself. So, if I set out to run a 10 mile run and I'm just not feeling it, then I'm okay just quitting. So, I wanted to know what is it that you do or what is it that you tell your mind when you have those thoughts? And it was like I had to reexplain the question. And at first I thought it was a language barrier that I didn't understand what I was talking about. But I guess it never really crosses their mind if their training plan says I'm going to run 21 kilometers today. That's what they do.

14:37 And there is no, "Oh, maybe I should cut it shorter." No. Well, and and that's a people ask what makes the Kenyan runner so good and and people who have never been to Kenya don't understand that. you know, when when you go over there and and you're going to follow the kids to school and you see kids walking to school six miles each day back and forth to school. And then there are other young kids standing alongside the road who can't afford the uniforms that are standing there just envying those those runners or those athletes that are get an opportunity to go to school. So it's embred into their culture to be happy with whatever you have. And it may be not very much, but you're happy to have what you have. And so there's a joy in their heart that we somehow have lost that somewhat in America. So now let's talk about what how we can apply some running advice from what you have been saying and what you will say to our runners in the audience. Obviously we're not going to have the opportunity to win a race. So we're not going to learn how to win per se. What are some other ways of us feeling like we're winning so we can also have that soul part of running to continue to push and get faster?

16:10 here. And and I think what you do is you is you set a goal out like whether it's 4 hours or 3 hours or 2 hours and 30 you you set intermediate goals along the way also. And that you know you you say okay I'm going to run a a 5K and I'm going to try and hit this time at a fi local 5K. and then you go and and hit another race that's maybe a 10K or something like that or even in in the marathon itself you can have intermediate goals and you know write it on the back of your hand or or whatever what those are.

16:53 you know what, I'm going to run the first 5K in this and see that as a goal. And then intermediate goals as you go through the race is is very important in order to and we do the same thing with elite runners, you I mean, we had a race plan for John all the way through and and and you know, you you run that race plan, but ultimately what you say is how do you feel on that day and then on that day set a a goal and whether it's, you know, around your block, you know, I'm going to run such and such for that run around the block and then you know two weeks later you're going to run it around the block and and try and run 5 seconds faster. You set intermediate goals and and that's why we do workouts is because we need goals intermediately in order to reach our ultimate goal.

17:59 Okay. And how would that affect a runner to not hit the intermediate goals? For example, John told me he was going to run 20 miles at a pace that's very doable for him and then take off at 6 milesi and that's exactly how he did, which is amazing. But what if he didn't feel as good? How far do athletes drop or what else is there to hang on to if you don't hit those immediate goals that you set for yourself?

18:34 Well, I I I think that's when you have to re-evaluate and say, you know, what went wrong? What did you know, did it did it was it something I did in my pre-race preparation? Was it something that I did in my training? You go back and you re-evaluate and you sit down and you and you don't you don't beat yourself up. You look for the ways that you can change in order to meet those goals. and and yes, you know, John, everything is is going really really well right now, you know, but at looking, let's take Wesley for example. Wesley once he won Boston then he got into parliament and the next year in 2013 he comes back and he's only running 15 miles a week and so he couldn't expect to win. So his his goal was to finish the race and do a great job in parliament. Okay. So realizing that you have other things going on in your life, you need to look to those and find out, okay, what is it that happened that created this situation?

19:53 Okay. Yep. That makes all good sense. Thank you. And I guess my other question for you is when you observe I mean I know you don't coach lay quote unquote runners but you observe a lot of stuff probably through social media etc. What is the number one you see what number one mistake that you see runners do that maybe keeps them from being able to realize their goals? Okay.

20:24 So that's a very difficult question but generally I think that people do not run their hard runs hard enough because they run their easy runs too hard. So if you look at the Kenyon environment and you went and ran with what with John Carrer correct? Yes. Did you have any trouble keeping up? Oh, no.

20:54 Absolutely not. And I kept bugging him to tell me what his heart rate was on on the Garmin because I wanted to know if he was superhuman. Well, my point is what was he doing at that point? He was recovering. He was resting. So, he runs very slow. And if you go as you did go to Kenya, you go to Kenya and you go on one of the easy runs with them and it's eight minute mile pace and you go this guy's a 202 marathoner. Why does he run 8minute mile pay? Well, then you try and run a tempo run with him and you find out that you can't run with him. So I have I think that most people work too hard on their recovery runs. Recovery means recovery. And when you work hard, you need to rest hard.

21:52 Sleep, food, all of those things. John career has been on a one month rest period, not run one step in a month. That's so that his body can regenerate. And I believe very strongly in in the the god-given things that we we have the world gives us all kinds of signs of what to do. we only ran we only run six days a week because you have to have a Sabbath. You have to have a rest period.

22:30 and and if you build those kinds of things in to your training program, then your training program can be effective. So if you don't rest properly, you can't run hard properly. So I would say the number one thing that that athletes make a mistake on is that they run too hard on their easy days. Okay. Yeah. I mean with Strava, you're right. We see we see all that and if somebody's easy run is within the same pace as John career is then you know you know it's not the true true easy run.

23:13 All right. So I guess with that, what is the number one thing besides this easy run that for somebody who wants to get faster could focus on to to to maybe get a stronger mind or to just become a better runner? Because obviously we know number one thing is e polarizing your runs, running the fast runs fast and running the easy runs are easy. But what is something else that they could do just for their mindsets to be stronger?

23:42 I think that one of the things that also you can do is is start out your I I talk regularly again about progressively more aggressive. Okay? So when you go on your tempo runs don't start out going at race pace and faster. You start out easy and then you end up your run with a a fast last kilometer or whatever you it is last mile. So, you know, let's say if your goal is 6 minutes to the mile, okay, you start out mile number one at at maybe 640 and then you go 6:30, 620, 610 and then end up at six minutes. That way you end your workout with a feeling of success rather than a feeling of failure. So if you start out at 6 minutes and then you end up at 640 now you look at your your workout as a failure because you went slower. So start out at a pace that you can handle and then progressively get more aggressive.

25:00 Okay. Okay. And I guess we saw that with, as we previously mentioned, John's marathon performance of running 20 miles at something that was very manageable and then pushing the last hard six miles. Is that what you have him do as well when he does his long runs? Yes. And you look at Chicago is a better example of that even than than Boston. The goal at Boston was very simple. win Boston. Whatever it takes, win Boston because there was and and John had to and and we've talked a little bit about this, but there was a lot of pressure on John internally. his brother is a role model to him and and for him to win Boston to be the first two brothers that have won Boston at at the start line and in preparation for that. Our goal was do whatever you need to do to win Boston.

26:03 And and you know the year before the pace went out very very fast and so what do you do at the face pace goes out very very fast. So his goal was get to 20 miles and then leave the pack. Okay. And at Chicago, his goal was, "Go run that race." And then as he got to the 21 mile mark, he said, "Let's go. I feel great." And nobody went with him. And he just kept going and going and going and and if you look at his last part of that race, he was still accelerating at Chicago toward even at the end of the race. But at Boston, it was a different situation in that he left the group, put a minute and a half on everybody or a minute on everybody, and then he just enjoyed the last mile coming on in, you know, just enjoyed the the the the time, you know, and and so it it was so much pressure on him and he handled it beautifully.

27:11 Yes. Especially given that the Chicago race is a flat course and Boston isn't, which is another thing that I have noticed about elite runners. Again, I was talking to another Kenyan athlete and I asked him, "What race are you running next?" And he said he they're still negotiating. It's going to be either Chicago or New York. And I said, "Oh, do you have a preference?" Cuz obviously they're completely different courses. And he was like, "No, I can handle both." And that just kind of, you know, again makes me realize how strong they are mentally that if you were to ask me, I would say Chicago, please. But they are just okay with the opportunity they're given. Well, and and you look at what you know what a motivation it is for a Kenyan athlete to do well in a marathon in the United States because it is even a small race and when I say a small race a race with small prize money is very big to a Kenyan athlete because you know the difference in the financial situations in in the two countries are are so different. So, you know, in in a athlete winning a major race in the United States from Kenya, it changes their life. And so, one of the things that you also have to prep prepare them for as their life changes as winning marathons in the United States, how do you protect yourself? and and this is a very short career in terms of, you know, as a lawyer, for example, you've got a 30-year career as a lawyer. Well, the the the window for a a top level marathoner is probably about 10 years.

29:02 And and you know, you look at Kipchigible, for example, he's on the senior part of his career at this point, and yet he's finding joy in it. at at just running. So the joy of running has got to become the goal as you get further along in your career. And how do you manage and prepare yourself and your family for that amount of of of monies that you came in with? And so and many of the Kenyan runners don't manage their money well and then five years after they are done with their running career, they've got nothing. and and Wesley and and and John are doing things philanthropically with the Beng coffee now and with transcend running academy and and the eye clinic and all of the things that are changing lives in Sherangani and they're investing their money wisely into the area and they're so good philanthropically because they've They've got a heart and they know that how much this is a gift from God. I mean that it's a God-given gift. You know, I tell my wife, she has a gift of hospitality. I have the gift of coaching. The career boys have a gift of running and each one of us have got our role in utilizing the gifts that we are given. And so, to answer your question very simply, take the gifts you're given, use them well, and then give them away to others. I love this and you're so right with that. I mean, I have been to the Transcend Academy in Kenya to see how huge of an impact they have made in the entire country of Kenya. Wesley with the politics and then both of them making that school happen, I clinic. Now, the coffee that I'm for sure is probably also gonna contribute to financial gains to transcend academy.

31:10 So, they're doing something beautiful. And I'm sure that's also part of the drive and part of the reason or the I guess why as we call it nowadays for John to really want something and then go get it because he's making such a big impact. It's not just him and his family. Yeah. And and so the blessing that he is getting in that and that you know don't forget that who's in control of all of this and and so he has given his talent so that he can give to others. I mean, and and they just yesterday they ran the first workout on the brand new track at Transcend, and it is amazing. And I've been texting back and forth with Wesley and the group over there now. And I said, you know, in setting up their next week's workouts, is is this were they super motivated by being on the track?

32:10 They were running K repeats and I mean they were out of this world good for high school students and I said it is that normal or is that something that happened? And and so we'll find out in another week whether it was it was just motivation for the time or was it they're just that good and and so that it's going to and I can see that track going into being a you know a rubberized track and a whole workout facility and training room and everything. So everybody in transcend, it will become the next mecca for distance training.

32:52 Transcend will become E10. I love it. And hopefully we're planning a trip to a group trip and hopefully we get to make that be part of our visitation because we're staying in a 10en and then one of the potential excursions that we're looking at is visiting Transcend Academy because I think we need to shine some light on this. Yes. Yes, absolutely. If people knew what was going on there and and get to know the students at Transcend, they would realize that, you know, there will be someone that comes out of there. I mean, already, you know, Wesley Kipu is a is a product of of of Transend and now he's running very well and finished well at Boston. And so the the next generation is beginning to come about and you know it's just going to be better and better and better as time goes on. I love this. Coachman, any other tips, advice, or anything else you want to say to our listeners?

34:00 I would just tell all of you to do all things in moderation. I mean and and give yourself a break and that don't put too much pressure on yourself. and and find what your gift is and then utilize that gift. you know, I always wanted to be a great runner and and I was running 100 miles a week back in the day and and after 40 years of that, I had two replacement hips and the good Lord said, your body is falling apart. go to a bicycle. So I would say I would say to people that you know use your god-given talent, make it well and then if running is a part of that, then so be it. I tell people all the time, you know, find out what it is and and if you're if you're not a runner and you can play a great guitar, then be the best guitar player you can be. If you if you want to be a lawyer, be the best lawyer you can be. If you're going to be a coach, be the best coach you can be. Be the best at whatever it is that is your God-given blessing and your and your talent. So, and the key really there is to find what that is. What is that passion that just burns in your heart?

35:25 And and for me to watch athletes run fast like John is doing right now, it gives me such a joy just to watch and and and to see that development happen, not only as a as a runner, but to see what he's doing with it. So, whether you're a lawyer or a guitarist, be the best you can be at whatever it is you're doing and find your god-given talent.

35:58 Perfect. Thank you so much. You're so welcome.