How To Maximise Your Offseason | Brandon, Rachel & Jacob EP.1

0:00 Hello lovely people and welcome to the BK Conditioning podcast. In the room today, the Zoom room, we have Mr. Jacob Herman and Dr. Rachel Wardrop. And collectively, we are BK Conditioning and our mission is to positively contribute to the growth state of natural bodybuilding. And we do this primarily through coaching and mentorship. But we hope that this podcast is an extension of that. So within these episodes, you will hopefully gain some fresh perspective, a smidge of education, and maybe a little entertainment along the way.

0:33 And in natural bodybuilding, it's been a very dense period, very exciting time. lots of cool things going on. And as we move through today, we'll get up to date on that front and we'll take some time to really dig into some of the nitty-gritty of the off season where a bodybuilder is developed. But as a start, let's get a bit of an intro, Jacob. what's been going on? Let's start there and we'll move to Rachel. Back in Oz, the skin is dry acclimating to that. So it's slightly colder weather, but is very nice. Got nice sun is out today, so can't really complain. and not being able to train while the MBS on. I'm pretty much sort of catching up for all the intensity that I missed out on this week. So, we're we're we're catching up for the lost lost time there, too.

1:27 >> Picking up momentum, lovely. And how you doing, Rachel? >> Yeah, good. I'm in Australia at the moment as well, and it's definitely a lot different compared to my tropical life over in Indonesia. So just adjusting to that. But coming into next week, I think it's at the end of next week, it's about four weeks out from show one for me, which is really cool. So just turning the wheels and investing and doing all the fun do associated with prep. So yeah, all is well.

2:02 >> How are you doing? >> Fantastic. >> I'm doing pretty bloody fantastic. Obviously, it's been a very dense period for us in recent times between the natural bodybuilding summit, which was truly incredible. obviously, it was a bit of a challenging period for you, Jacob, as Jacob was a bit unwell throughout that period and >> made it challenging for Rachel as well. >> The first few days were a little bit a little bit tough. but it was a wonderful event. And thereafter I jumped an airplane to Denmark and that is where I am at this current juncture with these bags in my eyes. I'm still still acclimating to the time difference. The time difference is violent. It's a violent transition. You know the 2 hours or 3 hours we're used to between Oz and Asia is just so simple. but here it's been a bit more bit more challenging.

2:56 But I was here for the Rizgard Blueprint seminar and it was just incredible to connect with such a phenomenal group of coaches and athletes and immerse myself in the bodybuilding culture in a different section of the the world. So privileged to be here truly, you know, sharing the the good word, if you will, of natural bodybuilding. And with that said, I'm looking very forward to reinstating some normality in reference to the routine and that will be kicking off as of the back end of this week back home on the the Friday. But back to the the NBS, the National Bodybuilding Summit again, wild event in that you know that's something that you know all three of us have been talking about for a very long time. So to bring that together was incredible. It it really was. but yes, Jacob, on your end, I know you came where give us a bit of an overview where you traveled to first because you didn't come direct to us.

3:59 You were first over in other parts of Asia. In retrospect, I should have but maybe just slept in a little bit earlier or gone to bed earlier, but I did two days in Singapore and then seven days in Cambodia, which was pretty cool. If anyone wants to go get maybe a similar thing to Vietnam, but a lot less busy, you just got to get out of your comfort zone a little bit, go to places where not many people speak English.

4:30 It's a pretty cool place. And then made my way to to Bali. So, in future, I need to make sure I'm healthy, especially if I'm helping with something. even though Rachel and Brandon pretty much had everything covered, it just takes you know, a little bit off the plate and especially that I was staying at your guys' place. It's probably not a good idea to get sick and then maybe get other people sick who are in contest prep.

5:04 >> That's not something that we plan for, right? But it definitely added some extra definitely added an extra kind of flavor to to the week if you will. But overall it was really cool. And just to give a bit of overview so obviously every day at the MBS we had a lecture from one of the coaches followed by training followed by an activity etc. And Jacob, you >> sometime we overachieve on occasion. And I know that obviously your topic was particularly practical, which is great cuz a lot of the topics were quite philosophical, which is quite interesting. and what did can you just give the listeners a bit of an idea as to what you present on cuz I saw everyone taking notes. It was fantastic.

5:51 >> Thank you. well, I presented on what you can do in and around the Perry workout window to maximize training success. Things from your nutrition, hydration, and then moving into your training, looking at how we can standardize execution, maximize training intensity and movement quality. So we then get we will we ring out the towel as much as possible when it comes to the stimulus across an entire session. The intention was as you put forth be to do it as the first lecture as that would have really set the bar and the tone for training across the camp but unfortunately I wasn't able to do that but I think you know the time that I had off I was able to fine-tune it a little bit more and present it as my best self. So, it was cool to be able to do that and I was honored to get that opportunity as well.

6:49 >> but yeah, I'm pretty sure that covers most bases in a very short time period. >> Yeah, look, it was wonderful and really it was essentially a performance-based handbook for leveraging your best for training and there was a lot of everyone was taking notes there. I think there's incredible value on that front. in the center session of the week, we had the good doctor presenting her topic. Do you want to give a quick overview on that front, Doc? Sure.

7:13 I I came at from the perspective of okay, how can I offer some value here with my sort of clinician researchy background without coming across as a lecturer, right? Because nobody wants to listen to that. So I sort of lent into okay, you know, it comes from a p place of passion as well. So I teach research that's that's what I do and I love it. So I really wanted to give people an insight as to what it is, how it's derived from from science, what is evidence-based practice and how, you know, individuals can when they're reading something take away, you know, how do I assess this independently? So you don't have to rely on somebody else.

7:52 You don't have to rely on somebody's opinion or somebody's, you know, random opinion on something like Instagram for, for example. So mine was very focused on differentiating between fact and fiction and following what I like to call the red thread in terms of the pursuit of truth to understand what we're reading and really have an opinion around whether we accept it, we reject it or you know we do something in the middle with what we're being presented. So hopefully it was interesting. I didn't see too many eyes glaze over which is great but hopefully everyone took something away from it too.

8:26 >> That's good. Great. I for one believe there's incredible value there as well hey a fellow scientist and I think from one thing we see often times on social media is this interesting dichotomy between those of whom are quote unquote science base lifters versus those who are bros. And one thing that frustrates me to no end is that it seems as though well in order to be cool and accepted you have to be one or the other. But it completely fails to acknowledge that evidence-based practice is the mergence of the best available research plus you know thinking logically and rationally and then considering the person before you anecdote etc. And it's just again it's just so shortsighted to be one or the other. And I think this is where your presentation was so golden as it really just I mean you you you presented a great framework but then really had people think critically like hey this is what science is. Science is an imperfect tool but it gets us closer to the truth.

9:31 And I think if more people adopted this perspective and took the emotion out of being being a bro or being being totally quoteunquote science-based and just were evidence informed, I think we'd have an industry that is much more peaceful and productive. So thank you very much for your contribution there, Doc. on my end I had the pleasure of presenting on traits of effective coaches which is definitely not my usual style of presenting but I think there was value there. We had a lot of coaches in the room and I believe the world needs more good coaches and that really kind of built a I built out basically our five pillars if you will of effective coaching and again I think there's value there and I do hope that it contributes to the productivity and longevity of the coaches in the room because you know our mission at BK conditioning is positive contribute to the growth and state of national bodybuilding and I'd love to see you know other people you know pick that and you know continue their their work as a coach in the long term.

10:37 So it's >> what were those five pillars be? >> The five pillars were you're going to actually challenge me here cuz I basically the the five pillars involved technical proficiency. there was growth aden item in there which is basically having growth mindset. personal connection we sort of built upon that and we also looked at longevity in the mix there as well and there was one other chapillar in there. So, it was quite an in-depth presentation and something which I just spent a lot of time in on and it was a opportunity for me to go deep on some of the components that I believe contributed to some of my most positive coaching experiences as the consumer and as a person in the driver's seat. So, it was a real pleasure to have the opportunity to to really dig into that.

11:36 But outside of this, it's also been an incredibly exciting period for bodybuilding on the natural side of things. We had the IFBB season throughout Oz and I must say that was a thrill to watch. Whilst not in person, the live feed was incredible. and looking at the athletes from state to state and seeing them all come together at nationals over essentially a four or five week period was most interesting because we saw a lot of guys that came in some people came in better some people came in a little a little worse in some way shape form or capacity and it really plays into the excitement of of bodybuilding and for the nationals myself Jacob and Henry Rachel Fortune was already back in Oz supporting family. We sat down on the couch together, cracked a couple of Coke Zeros and just got into it like as if we're watching a game of footy. It was a real pleasure. yeah, true true pleasure to watch that season come together. Do you have any commentary on that, Jacob?

12:40 Well, it was cool to see the level for the inaugural IFBB Pro card presented and I think all the recipients were very worthy of that. >> one of which Tony very impressive he's come I think really what I took away from Tony getting his pro card is what is possible after committing yourself to the craft for for long enough, right? for >> I think you know coming on almost 20 years of natural bodybuilding you know much like yourself be you know you really can take the physique a long way and I think that statement a lot of people say around there being a limit. Yeah, there probably is a limit, but if you come at natural bodybuilding with that mindset, you're going to find that a lot earlier.

13:37 >> because you're just going to cut yourself short at the legs. And so, it's pretty cool to see such an impressive physique up on stage. and then even the bodybuilding winner, I believe his name is Elvis. And even going to the females, the some pretty cool figure girls. I do respect Bikini and the others, but I have a little bit more of a interest in in figure as well. But yeah, that was pretty cool to see. And there was I think 300 350 competitors for that national season as well, which is impressive.

14:13 >> Yeah, it was certainly very impressive to see the the caliber of athlete and just how quickly it has grown over that well relatively short period. And you know going back to your piece here I think that one of the things that all the best athletes have is they do adopt that perspective of growth add item that is you know the mentality that there is always ways to be better and do better and just as you put forth I there is a ceiling but as soon as you accept the ceiling your actions will reflect that and that will become your quote unquote glass ceiling and for bodybuilding it's a game of millimeters >> and you know as Steve presented the NBS on the compounding physique. The compounding effect is always in action.

14:59 You know, your actions for good or bad will influence your result by virtue of of time. And when you see you see Tony on stage, this is the basically the sum of yes 20 years of training. If you calculate that out, you know how many hundreds of possibly millions of tons have been put through this physique over those two decades, right? And it's just the art of doing the same thing over and over again with minor adjustments. And credit to him. He really looked fantastic as did the other guys. But again, very interesting to watch the progression of physiques throughout the the season. looking at sort of Elvis for example. Dude, his dance, man. Very impressive. watching his first show, God, he must have had he must have suffered beyond measure between because he came in quite quite soft on the first one, quite bubbly. He lost a a lot of fullness to the to coming to the second, but because he was so much leaner, he was just so much more competitive. Like the physique was, but mate, he must have just had to punch himself into the floor. I would assume even at his height, he would have I don't know 3 plus kilos down or something. It's but very impressive to see what was what was done on that front. and the young gentleman who won bodybuilding in New South Wales, I think it was Dimmitri.

16:24 >> >> yeah, truthfully, first first time I seen his physique and you know, seeing him at the New South Wales show, I went, "Wow, where have you been hiding?" Or have I just been living under a rock? Incredible physique. Very symmetrical. His conditioning was in good ste. I wasn't there, but I can't and that's why I can't say for sure if it was just a matter of comparison, maybe a touch, kind of lost a bit of that pop maybe coming into the nationals. But, again, another incredible physique that really stood out in in my mind. So, look, congratulations to all and it seems like the IFBB is is picking up momentum and I'm very interested to see sort of how that trends over the next few seasons.

17:08 But between seasons of course we do have an off season and that is going to be the general topic of today as one must first build the body in order to be a bodybuilder and >> saying Brandon >> built in the offse conditioned in contest preparation. That's the motto. And obviously the we in general it's advisable to spend more time in the off season than in contest preparation. And we've all adhered to that over our career to this point.

17:45 and for the offseason, we'll let Jacob give a bit of perspective here in reference to some of the fundamentals and then we'll move to Rachel. So what are the objectives of the offseason? Let's let's go there. >> Objectives of the off season is to >> Yes, sir. >> put on as much muscle as possible within the constraints of where it's needed as well. So, >> we need to get bigger in the arms or the quads. Well, that's where, you know, an emphasis needs to be shifted and things like training intensity, movement quality really need to be emphasized.

18:20 And then you could potentially look at adjusting things within the scope of total sets. and you might also assess exercise order and sequencing. But I think a really big component of the off season is maintaining consistency, continuing to pick up those $100 bills and not focus on the pennies as the result will not be the same. you still might make progress but maybe just not as much. So I think especially if it's a first time off season it's like hey let's nail training intensity movement quality let's get nutrition in within the constraints of an offseason. Generally you can add in a little bit more flexibility >> but I think Rachel will go into a little bit more detail about that. and then it's just again repetition over time and doing it for long enough. I I don't know about you guys, but I always like to ask the question of, you know, what is it you want to achieve within your next season? Is it I want to be 10 kilos heavier? It's like, well, depending on where you're at, that could be quite challenging and might take quite a fair bit chunk of time. and so setting up realistic expectations and within sort of your parameters for what you want to achieve in the next season is also a a good way to set yourself up for success. I mean, ideally, I'd love to put on 5 kilos, but >> if I make enough progress within, say, the next 6 months, I might consider going on stage again. It really comes down to what what your goal and where you're aligned.

20:05 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, as we as we sort of often often frame it, you know, from a a duration perspective, I believe it's in general spend more time in the office than you do in con preparation. And you compete when the mind is ready, the body's ready, the environment is ready. Those three things need to align. But if we're going to look at a ratio, I think the a good minimum would be, and this is not a hard fast rule, just simply a guideline so it doesn't affect rigidity. But at least two times the duration in the offse per unit of contest preparation. So if you're spending 25 weeks in conspiration, that gives you 18 months between. That gives you adequate time to recuperate from the previous conis prep, i.e. on the recovery phase which these days is a bit more lengthy than perhaps it was a decade and a bit ago because this the conditioning stand is much higher. So it is inherently more disruptive to your physiology irrespective of how intelligently you run the program.

21:13 and it gives you enough time to make meaningful progress and then after that it really comes down to how much progress you want to make and obviously whether the environment, mindset, body etc are where they need to be. But one of the real big benefits of the offseason is is really let's say it's your first offseason before you get into a pre-prep is spending time living like a bodybuilder. You know, we can't maybe live like condest preparation or with that level of accuracy at all times of life, but you really want to be 80 90% there. And that's and you learn the ropes in terms of the daily actions that make a good bodybuilder in the offseason and pre-prep. And then we simply adjust the parameters and turn the volume up to 10 when it comes to tracking accuracy and >> and our ironing out the kinks routine when it comes to contest prep. So I think it's just such a valuable time for living the the life if you will.

22:18 And Rachel in reference to some of the so of course we we every phase has function every phase has a trade-off >> and the goal is for us is to optimize the function minimize the trade-off. what do you see as some of the challenges of the off season? Broadly speaking, >> I think I mean coming from the perspective of I have both lifestyle and bodybuilding clients, I'm always very aware that I want someone's training system to integrate into their lifestyle as best as possible. And I suppose part of my perspective is coming at it from the vernacular they use, right? Because what we tell ourselves, we believe exactly as you said before. So instead of, you know, I have to train, I get to train. you know, I get to be able to do this really cool thing that a lot of people might not understand or might not be able to do themselves. But I suppose the trade-offs we really have to balance from irrespective of whether you're looking to compete or not is how does that fit within my lifestyle? We're always talking about meeting an athlete where they are, right? And that means exercise selection should should suit the individual right irrespective of their particular biomechanics and injuries like it should fit within what works for them. But one of the other things I like to emphasize here especially where I really like to take on new athletes is >> don't convo sorry don't avoid preference sorry don't choose preference which avoiding weakness. I'll get there eventually. It's really easy >> to train things that we enjoy, right?

23:56 And that's one of the questions that we ask when we take somebody on is like when you go into the gym, what do you enjoy training? What do you stay the heck away from? I love asking that question because it makes people go, "Oh, actually, yeah, I stay away from biceps because I don't want my biceps to get really big or whatever the rationale is, right?" But I think the awful reason is about deliberately putting ourselves in that position where we get a little bit uncomfortable and that might be a fatal for somebody who's never been uncomfortable before. Right.

24:24 >> Yeah. To bring up those muscle groups to to contribute to our growth, >> especially where it's not something that it's their favorite. And I find that that fits into the mentality of things. Taking somebody's mentality from I don't like this, I have to do this. all of these really strong words to now actually I'm you know I get to turn up and do this and be better than I was yesterday and that's I suppose perhaps a tradeoff that people have to work with.

24:55 >> Yeah. I suppose >> it's somewhat human nature to enjoy the things that you are good at. If you >> really connect well with your pecs, you look at dumbbells and you get a pump, >> it's probably quite enjoyable. If to the contrary, you train back, struggle to connect with it, you're a bit underdeveloped maybe in that area, perhaps you don't enjoy it as much. But from a objective perspective, that's the area we need to emphasize on.

25:26 And I suppose that's where we come in as coaches to offer some perspective. Hey, our objective is to build size in the right areas to ensure that we present a picture of symmetry and proportion for the next season. These are the areas that must be emphasized and this is what we're going to these are the the tools we have available to accommodate for that. Are you on board with that? Yes, I am. Okay. Well, then let's flesh out a plan collaboratively that is mechanistically sound and enjoyable because I believe there's got to be, you know, some midway in the mix there. And of course, in the offseason in our endeavors to maximize muscle, positioning ourselves nutritionally to facilitate performance to support the energetically costly process of muscle protein synthesis can come with some potential fat acrruel. I'm curious to get your perspective, Jacob, on running big push-ups versus gaintaining or main gaining. I have some thoughts on this, but I'd love to hear your perspectives.

26:34 >> I think like you said, as long as performance is there, >> we're in a productive place to build muscle and train as well as we can. you have definitely made me think about that a little bit more. It's like, okay, this body weight I feel very strong on a hinge on an RDL, but if I start to tip below, I can have an on and off day. Like you just you just feel like there's something's going to shear. Even though you're fine, you just have that slight sense of of a lack of security. I mean, personally, I you you want to ring something out for as long as you can. I think it's a bit of a U curve.

27:23 If you're too lean, you're not going to be in that sweet spot for performance. And then we have that nice little more curve section, flatter section of the U curve where we're going to have peak performance. We're not going to be ridiculously high with respect to body fat. >> And we just want to stay there for as long as we can or stay within that gaining phase as long as we can. And then if and when needed, you can come down to that lower section of where you're still maximizing performance. Maybe you get a little bit of push back with respects to diet fatigue.

28:02 and then you start that slow gaining process again. and you know, within that gaining, we're not looking to gain a kilo a week. We're maybe looking at doing something along the lines of a couple of percent across across a month. So, we're really scoping things out a little bit more. But I mean from personal experience you know with the recovery phase sometimes you put on tissue a fat tissue a little bit too quickly and that's okay. it definitely took me a little bit of time to get my rhythm back into the off season and reaclimate myself to a new set of standards.

28:49 I'm definitely >> functioning at a higher level in the offseason now than I ever have >> from a even even from a nutritional sense as well. I think I almost tricked myself into thinking, "Hey, you used to, you know, be at this level. Like, what's going on, man? You're not where you should be." And no, I actually wasn't. My standards were just a touch a touch lower. >> and now it's really in a good spot. >> Yeah.

29:17 >> and I'm okay just holding that same body mass because I am performing really well. I'm still progressing. >> and ticking those boxes. Well, do I need to diet? And going back to, you know, that sort of rough guideline of a 2:1 ratio, we can sort of, look back, go, okay, we've sort of just about hit that box where it's been a 2:1. Maybe we can consider a fat loss phase here now. >> Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to frame it. You you want a body composition that is conducive to performance and robust enough to take the punishment of the big loads that you're going to lift in order to facilitate progress whilst being at an appropriate striking distance to stage lean. And I mean where that exists is just so person dependent. I can seldom think of a time in which it's appropriate to be like 40% over your projected stage weight. I would say you probably overcooked it. But for some individuals, they're greyhounds and they can easily position themselves at, you know, 10% over stage weight and feel pretty good, perform very well. For others, they need a slightly higher body fat percentage. And that's it maybe in part, you know, as a product of, you know, global energy availability needs to be in a position where one's endocrinology is conducive to maximizing anabolism. or it may be as you allude to that hey I have slightly better leverages at this body fat. there's a re to be fair we don't want to take that too far. There's a reason why powerlifters are often times pretty pretty house. It's because they got less range of movement on a bench press etc.

30:50 We don't take it too far. Just keep pushing it up. >> Got to find that midway. But look in reference to to push-ups versus maintaining or or maintaining as I like to frame it. You know it's been really interesting. Social media again loves a you know it loves these absolutes and this dichotomy of being this camp or that camp and we are not that >> we think logically and critically right and I mean in terms of a push-up >> I believe for the for an individual's first one or maybe two seasons there's probably a lot of benefit in being quite an assertive surplus because they're so receptive to resistancebased draining stimulus and their ability to partition ition protein towards muscle is profound and it's probably never going to be like that again unless you go the enhanced route in which case you know that first push-up I mean we've had some guys that we push them up 10 kilos and majority of that is muscle mass wonderful then newbies roll with it I think to be to adopt a main gaining perspective there would really and we've got to get there maybe maybe eventually maybe not it you're elongating the process in any case, but perhaps you get to the level of myself, etc. Well, then it really is a game of, you know, a a game of grams, right? You know, even looking at my last season, you know, 4.6 4.8 kilos up, I think it was across a 5year period. Now, I I I will say I'm really stoked about that myself, but look at this across a matter of weeks and months if it was a linear process, which is not. You know, we're looking at like, yeah, over the year, oh yeah, you did like 80 g, you know, 90 g of muscle a month. Like, man, it's was it worth me pushing up, you know, at 10 kilos and then pulling down 10 kilos?

32:50 Probably not. I'm going to sit within a more narrow body fat bandwidth in the offseason, be more conservative and and you know hopefully not have to run these consistent mini cuts. And on the topic of mini cuts, by the way, I will put forth the notion. So again, looking at social media from a trend perspective, you know, we went through this period where everyone was just size of a house bulky, went through a period there where mini cuts were in vogue and everyone was just mini cutting every second week. You you have to think logically here and be critical. Mini cuts have their place, but you incorporate them on a as needed basis. I can see benefits to running a mini cut, not just from re from setting up an appropriate body composition for a future phase, but there's benefits there for getting some exposure to the dieting condition. You get better in the gym through reps. You get better at dieting through reps as well. but you don't want to over capitalize to the point of which you're spending a dismal portion of your off season in a nutritional environment conducive to maximizing progress. And I should make it known, you can gain muscle mass in a deficit.

33:50 You can, it's just akin to rowing a boat upstream. >> You know, you need more effort per unit of ground covered. And obviously, if the energy deficit, the current is too large to spite your best efforts to row as hard as possible. That is your stimulus. You're still going backwards. So there's, you know, you can gain muscle mass. Yes, if the deficit is appropriate, stimulus appropriate. But your goal is to spend most your time maximizing your your your offseason sort of productivity.

34:14 But I suppose in general one of the biggest challenges that that I see and I'd love to get your your guys perspective as well that that on this that challenges one's offseason progression is boredom because bodybuilding is the art of doing the same thing over and over again with minor adjustment. And in contest prep, you're seeing the result of your work in a very short time point. Do the work today, I'm seeing it tomorrow and the day after. In the offseason, it's not necessarily like that. This is where I think you you see a lot of guys that maybe push into surplus too much because they're chasing some measurable change on a dayto-day, week- toeek basis. And let's go to say Rachel here. Do you what tools do you have from a coaching perspective that you might bring out to have people, you know, to to keep people on board with that process of staying true to the off season, you know, whilst you might not see it in real time, >> in a couple months time, you're going to see that progress. When you cut down, you're going to see that progress.

35:20 Let's talk to that. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think first and foremost it's about being honest with people that we are playing the long game. You know, I'm not here to sell you something. I I'm here to be honest with you from a coaching perspective because I think a lot of people do misrepresent themselves. Let's be realistic. But in order to play the long game, one of the things you're going to need to have is patience, right? And that's why I think asking someone's why is really really important because perhaps you can work with their why and you know you can support them in really understanding what's realistic based on time points but also having something that's tied to a goal right we're motivated by by goals like we don't have goals I don't know I come from the perspective of it's probably my type by personality and what the heck am I doing if I don't don't have a goal whether it be bodybuilding or life or whatever whatever it is. So, you know, I think operating from a macro perspective first and foremost and having an overarching goal is okay, I want to stay on stage like say in two years in this particular category. Okay.

36:26 And then reverse engineering it. It's like how I build curriculum curriculum. I reverse engineer it from okay, what's the main outcome I want to achieve and here are my sub phases. So, my first subphase is going to be an acclamation phase for you. Then we're going to go into a bit of a maintain growth phase. is I never call it a bulking because people instantly think I think again it's the nuance of language dirty dirty dirty bulk. but again like growth phases like this is what our first one looks like, this is what we're hoping to achieve and getting into the granularity of that with the client in terms of what would you like to achieve in this particular phase and then bringing it back to okay what's what's realistic based on exactly what you said like you're not going to see things overnight. That's not how it works. But let's work back from where you want to be in a couple of years. Let's create those phases and this is what you know we're aiming to achieve every session which is as we said pushing our ceiling pushing our reps and reserve like how can I do better each time I step into the gym. really I think shifting it from the macro to the micro perspective in terms of goal development is really quite important for someone to to stay on track to feel connected with the process and to feel like they're moving towards that ultimate version of themselves if that makes sense.

37:43 >> Yeah, >> it's definitely a big reframing from from a contest preparation. It's just so >> simple for the athlete to >> invest in the condis preparation when the time between investment and outcome is just so so short. >> Absolutely. And >> sorry, >> do you have a thing? >> I was just going to say like I think from like we talk about newbie gains a lot, right? And that definitely does happen like people get really surprised at what happens in that particular period especially if they haven't really trained before but there's a lot of relationship building that is relied upon in that particular period. I have found in my experience and you might agree or disagree with this, but in order for somebody to have that that shift, that understanding and and see things, they have to have a lot of faith in you. And I always say that I am really the GPS. You're the driver behind the driver's seat. I can tell you what to do and you know how to optimize things and how we can get the absolute most from our nutrition and training, but you have to be willing to actually do it. And I've had clients who've gone like, "Oh my gosh, you were right. That was the right call." like I've seen my like I've had a client recently and he's just the most beautiful human and he's gone yes my my girlfriend thanks you because my legs are like huge now and I'm like great like that's not me that's you mate like that's that's you like being honest with your nutrition and being honest with your training and us just investing in this process in the long term so I I will say it's that definitely that trust behind everything which is really core to what we do so go for Jake Well, I'll put this forth first. I get off the set of a hack squat and I sort of have a bit of a laugh to myself after, you know, training as I do, just because I love it so much. And I think, as you were putting it, Brandon, it's really powerful to shift where we put our emphasis, where we put our our energy into, like not worrying so much about physical changes.

39:53 And if we double down on the process that becomes far more powerful and you make more progress. And I really like I got it from Richard Collins as I think we get a lot of things from Richard the sort of success statements even in an off season where if we maybe from a nutritional perspective are having constant slip ups and it's like okay you know where we're having this this event occur frequently like how can we reframe things and potentially make it a bit more individualized and shift the focus from >> yeah >> something else to something that's more productive that we can go go through on a day-to-day basis and tick it off. It's like today, cool. I tracked on a T2 standard.

40:47 >> Awesome. We we've ticked that box. And that is the the standard of maybe elite as you define in an offseason. And when it comes to training, putting things in a perspective of you've got 15 sets, within 15 sets, you have this many reps. How can you make those the best reps, the best sets than >> Mhm. >> the week before? like how can you continue to progress that and defining something and then putting it into two categories you know elite standard and below average and then we can start to build upon that and then bring meaning to that in things like check-ins I've found pretty good success with that as well a wonderful framework yes indeed I think for those of whom really enjoy training they excel in the offseason and really shifting towards a performance-based mentality can be a benefit. Now, we're not powerlifterss, right? But we know that if we're highly standardized and we're seeing with our execution and we're seeing performance trend up over time, it is a good indicator that we are accumulating adaptation perhaps initially at the level of neural proficiency. But as time goes on, a good portion of that is going to be a product of more in the way of the contractile elements. Right. So leaning into that I think is a benefit and just as you allude to putting in place offseason standards to be fair we should have standards for each season for any season right but the offseason's particularly challenging because it's easy to have complacency creep in when you're not getting instant feedback from your result >> and obviously your results a trailing indicator. So people sometimes come out of a Connor preparation, they reduce their standards a little bit, it looks like they're getting away with it because there's a result, but it's in a few weeks time where the result ceases or is really diminished and that compounds in a negative manner over time. So putting in place some guard rails in terms of a minimum viable input for the variables that influence your result. So even for things like a step output, it's, you know, in a condis prep, we're going to walk around that dinner table at 8:00 at night, get the steps in. Do we need to do that in cond?

43:05 No. We probably going to have our steps in a position of which are, you know, sustainable. But a minimum viable input, let's say, okay, five out of seven days, we're going to meet these steps, right? That's the minimum viable input for an elite athlete. Tracking accuracy. We've got our three tier tracking model. So we have a this what we implement in the offseason, but these three levels, if you will. Okay. What's the minimum viable input for a high level elite athlete? Five out of seven days T1, one to two days, T2, T3 occasionally. Okay. So, when you have these components in place, you know, you you know that you're actively pursuing the result and then it comes down to having, you know, a longitudinal kind of perspective in reference to the development. As often put forth, the goal sets the direction. Then we focus on the process largely forget about the goal >> and get to work essentially >> every now and then looking at what you're going to >> and not tripping over. I remember you saying that to me at like >> I can't remember how many weeks out it's like I like that >> climbing the mountain looking at the peak but if you look too there too long you're going to trip and fall back down to the start.

44:19 >> Yes. Yes. Sometimes being exceptionally outcome focused makes way for is in fact almost a distraction from the process that drives the result. So this is where you want to have that midway and be as processorientated as we can. I think adopting this perspective of pursuing mastery can be really of benefit. You know mastery is a neverending pursuit. but if you have this perspective of growth admitted there is infinite growth figuratively and literally then it leaves an athlete always open to finding ways to be better and the offse I mean success there is a proxy for stage success. So if you can really apply that concept throughout that period you will always find ways to tweak that setup a little bit to drive more stimulus to that tissue. find ways within your pre game ritual to optimize your psychology for each individual training bout, etc., etc. And to be honest, I mean, for us, all of whom have been in the game for some time, that pursuit of mastery is really what keeps us going. The belief there is better, we can be better.

45:33 >> and having the opportunity to pass it on to your athlete, I think, is incredibly valuable. I'm interested in what yourself and Rachel think, Brandon, and maybe how it's changed over time, but if you could pick one point in time and maybe sort of scope back to it in terms of like how many years you've been in the game and when that sort of really made a difference, what was something that really flicked the switch, really drove more progress in an off season? And when in your timeline was that?

46:09 I would say for for me in about a couple years into my career, I had the opportunity to do some work with obviously Nathan Wallace and Damon Hay had these guys really showed me what intensity is really what intensity is. you know at this time Nathan for example I mean I say 50% of the bodybuilding community would say that guy nah this can't be natural now I had the opportunity to basically live with the gentleman I know it was natural but what I think people didn't understand is how we how we trained you know it was we it really opened my eyes just again how hard you can train and the psychology of performance You know that that for us sometimes we'd have a two-minute preset ritual where like I watch Nathan walk into the corner of the gym like close his eyes just rock back and forth just getting his head right for the you know for this set. He would then turn around and march to that that bar just looking like he's going to run through mother effers and then pull out this incredible performance. finish the set, change an expression, he's smiling, he's like, "Hey, I'm me again."

47:30 But for that two minutes, it's on. So that period for me was very instrumental in in teaching me where the ceiling is. And it was reflected in the immense training progression that was made over that time. Now, obviously, there's been an evolution since then. I will say that intensity was in check then, but I'm much more tidy with my movement quality, which is has then allowed me to accumulate more in the way of tissue specific stimulus and minimize the blast radius to connective tissues. but such an instrumental period in in my personal career. Rachel, >> I know I love my sayings. I do. And I know I lean into my saying of you are the sum of the five people you spend the most time with. Right? That for me was very true. I've been obviously I've I've known BK not just his wife but prior to that as his client for I don't even know how many years been like 12 something ridiculous.

48:31 A lot younger. Anyway, and even when I started, I had no bloody idea what I was doing. I had no idea. I was one of the the typical like if it hurts, stop kind of people, right? So, I had to learn and relearn and relearn that until I got to the point where I was like, yeah, gotcha. So, I like to say that I really haven't been training for that long, like training with purpose, because it's taken me a bit to understand that actually, you know, the the the hurt and not the bad hurt, like the the good muscular, like that's that's the convergence, like that's what we need. That's the concentric and eccentric fire kind of thing. That's the sorry, the technical player. and so I think that when I surrounded myself a bit more, obviously I started seeing BK more than his client and I started hanging out with these really cool bodybuilders like, you know, Kempy and V and Eli, etc. And being around these these guys who just love training, like it just it they bleed for it kind of thing. I started to understand what intensity actually looked like. Right?

49:49 So for me, don't know when that was in all honesty, but I do remember like it was definitely about the community and that was one of the things that I I said in that the NBS is that when you're surrounded by people that want you to do better, you want to do better. So definitely I suppose integrating into that family for sure that I suppose build on that I I do I am truly of the belief that a single training session with a good coach can redefine your standards and set up your trajectory for years to come.

50:27 >> You know, when it comes to training intensity, for example, it's it is a perceptive experience. When you've trained this hard, everything below it's easy. This hard, everything below it's easy. And I I really do think that events like the NBS, part of the value there is that hey, you know, not only are you taking in all this lecture content, etc., and and and you know, you're getting an understanding of five different coaches, high level coaches style, but you you're able to in a curated environment push the envelope beyond likely beyond preconceived you know, ceilings. And I think that's something that you will carry, you know, for for years to come. So, immensely valuable. And Jacob, I'd love to hear from you on that.

51:11 >> Yeah, it's a good question. I've had a few I've had three coaches. Oh, actually, I say I have four. Before I started training, I thought, okay, let's do a couple of PT sessions. Put me in the, you know, in the right direction. so I did some with my old soccer coach. It was like, cool. was more technical based, not really like hard training. And then I got exposed to, you know, what hard training was by my second coach. And looking back at it, I'm like, okay, I I wasn't really grafting and, you know, pushing hard.

51:51 You get to that point where you just be like, I just can't do it anymore. And you just stop. But now I say to myself, what the are you doing? Like there's there's more in the tank there. But it's a skill, so I can be kind to myself a little bit. >> and then I had my next coach where we pushed hard. We trained really hard. Okay, I started to really go, "All right, this is what hard training is."

52:17 But when I was by myself, it hadn't quite clicked yet completely. and it wasn't until maybe I would say just before I started working with UB, it all started to come together in terms of when I was by myself, I would dig start to dig out of the hole. and then it just got again exacerbated even more through working into that contest prep. and I sort of relate a little bit, not as extreme as that story you said about Nathan sort of walking into the corner. but there were there were some sets in, you know, in the back end of that contest prep where you really did have to get the mind right and I'm really leaning into that now in the offse.

53:08 Mhm. >> and that is having an immense impact on my ability to train hard and even sort of just understanding the resistance profile of a machine. Like if I know it's tapering, I'm just going to sit there. I'm just going to wait. It might feel like nothing's happening, but I'm just going to sit there and soak it up knowing that it's probably just going to pull off a little bit and then we're going to keep going.

53:34 >> yeah. >> But yeah, it was like really sort of small things and then it all started to click. I wouldn't say there was >> like one session where it was just out of this world. >> because we got a good little community at my gym now. It's like most people train hard >> and really what you're describing there is sort of the the path to mastery and obviously mastery is never ending but and I'm I'm confident that next year you'll come back and say hey I found ways to train to train more accurately and train harder. I mean I can say that for every single year of my to this point >> 15 year or so or so career. It it's a it's there's always something that we can we can refine. And I mean give yourself some credit here. You know when we when we say when we take an athlete from the from the ground up you know you don't just from one day to the next say okay cool let's use let's take this RDL and let's take it to complete momentary muscular failure. Me even to this day would hardly do that. You know you you you build the foundation athlete development and and sort of work work it up there. And I got to say, not that you can see, well, if you're watching this on YouTube, maybe you can see, but I don't know if you could fully appreciate the size of which Jacob possesses at this current juncture. Having had the opportunity to give this man a hug two weeks ago, the >> or two weeks ago, I think I was grabbing handfuls of spinal erector. so the work which you're doing in the offse is definitely paying dividends. So, credit to you.

55:08 And with that in mind, we may wrap up this episode. But I want to say on behalf of all the guys, big thank you for tuning in. If you've enjoyed this episode, please do like, subscribe, share this on your favorite social media platform. It goes a long way. And we'll see you in the next