Transcript
0:18 >> Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast. We are Joanna Robinson. >> I'm Rob Mahoney. >> And believe it or not, we're here to once again talk about Cape Fear. >> They keep allowing us back into this building to do this, and I don't know why. >> Actually, we have not left since we were here for the Widow's Bay finale. If you did not catch it, we did do the Widow's Bay finale live. That was a fun time.
0:35 So, you guys might want to check that out. Anything else? We should say there there are plans to cover the final season of The Bear upcoming. >> Yes. >> it will be Van Lathan and Charles Holmes who have been covering it for the last few seasons. They're just going to bring it home. So, that is what you can look forward to, but we, meanwhile, are in Savannah, Georgia for the foreseeable. >> We couldn't bear to be locked into a pressure-packed kitchen.
0:59 >> We need this instead. >> slow, sweltering boil of Savannah, Georgia. If folks want to reach us, and they have, with their thoughts on Cape Fear, how can they reach us? >> They can always reach us, Jo, as you know, at prestigetv@spotify.com. But, in particular for your Cape Fear-related thoughts, theories, weird AI slop turned fan art, >> -huh. >> think of a baby carrot@gmail.com. >> Yeah. Don't send us your AI slop fan art. >> No, I By that I mean you have to make the slop and then actually draw something from the slop.
1:33 >> Yeah, I would prefer them they not make the slop in the first place cuz that costs a bottle of water, but like maybe >> Find a naturally occurring slop. >> >> And you want to make fan art of >> It's a great point. >> Episode 4 is called Pierced, and we know why. It's written by Tera >> that the the fork stabbing into the fruit, I think, is what it's what it's about. >> Must be.
1:54 >> Written by Tera Shivkumar and directed by Reed Morano and as I mentioned before Reed is a director's name that really caught my attention. She was she's trained as a cinematographer before she became a director and she first popped on my radar when she directed the pilot of Handmaid's Tale or maybe all of that season of Handmaid's Tale. I think she did the whole season. And that first season of Handmaid's Tale was like such a huge deal when it came out.
2:19 It's a great season of television. But she's the first woman in history to win both the Emmy and the DGA for directing a drama series in the same year for Handmaid's Tale. She also did cinematography on Frozen River, Kill Your Darlings, and The Skeleton Twins like, you know, great movies. So like hiring her she always has like very distinctive visual splashy style and in this episode we get like dramatically canted angles and like all this other stuff. So what did you think >> Also I would say the saturation cranked up to a million.
2:49 >> the blues were blueing. What did you think of this episode either visually or or anything else? >> I'm having a great time. >> >> I don't Again, I don't know week to week if this is any good. There are lines that we're laughing at for a variety of reasons. There are things that are happening on the show that are just batshit insane. >> We had a great time watching it. >> It's so much fun. >> Yeah.
3:06 >> And so whether that's the intended effect, I suspect it is one way or another. Sometimes, but I'm having a great time with it. >> Yeah, so welcome back to Trapped in Plastic Theater. We are here to talk about Cape Fear. I also enjoyed watching this episode. Can I say this is a good show? I'm I don't think so. Can I say it's a great show? Maybe. Honestly, maybe but for our summer purposes. We will be bringing back the conspiracy board at the end of the episode that we introduced in last week's podcast episode. But throughout this discussion of the episode, we will be adding cards to the pile of what we will be putting on the board later.
3:42 >> There's so much every week. >> I know. And if we missed anything, press E C V at spotify.com or think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. All right, mail bag. First and foremost, we did get a report from a real Southerner, friend of the pod, Katie Rich. >> I do resent the implication. >> That you're not a real I just don't think a Texan a Texas boy should be weighing in on a Savannah, Georgia accent.
4:07 >> what we've proven as Texans is we can weigh in on whatever we god damn well please, and we will, whether you like it or not. >> look on you. but Katie Rich, unprompted, friend of the pod, listener of the pod, was like, "Hey, do you want some accent checks for me, an actual Southerner?" And I said, "Yes, please." And she said, "Anna Baryshnikov is nailing it." >> Okay. >> So, shout out the nepo baby, Anna Baryshnikov. Great job.
4:32 On the other nepo baby front, she said Kate Winslet's son wobbles in and out, but is good when it's there. I guess that's the British expertise, that's what she said. I asked her what her grade on Amy Adams was. She said, "Oh, very poor." >> Yeah. >> But it's kind of more that it seems to make her uncomfortable to use it, she's so weirdly muted. Patrick Wilson is definitely more comfortable with it. So, that is the assessment so far. But I'd be curious to hear from other Southerners what they think of the accent work on this show. I'm very interested. We did get a great email from our listener, Tim, who went through and time stamped all of the like, "Hey, did you realize this show is set in Savannah" moments of the first couple episodes, and I just want to read read them through.
5:09 >> It was I'm honestly seeing them all together was frankly embarrassing for the show. >> So, opening title, Savannah, Georgia in episode 1. He was Tim was like, "Cool." Leopold's ice cream shirt, that's what Patrick Wilson is wearing at the barbecue in episode 1. Sure, obligatory. Coastal Empire beer, subtle, if you know, you know, things for locals, cool. Variety of on-location shots, podcaster interaction, SGLP event, nice to see. Cougar, some thoughts on that. And then black coffee from Savannah Roasters, so odd, this is where it goes off the rails in my opinion, Tim says. "I work at the Humane Society on Sally Mood Drive, why?
5:48 Or the Savannah Bananas who give him who give him drugs. Enough already. So Tim is tapped out. Savannah expert Tim is tapped out by the end of episode two, but I did request an ongoing running list from Tim or anyone else of all of these Savannah references that may be flying overheads. We got a SCAD location inside of this episode, but I'm curious what else we might be missing. >> have fully crossed the bridge too from like subtle regional specificity into we're just going to name drop all these things for absolutely no reason in ways that real humans kind of don't really do in exactly this sort of way. It's so uncanny at this point.
6:22 >> Yeah. you know what? There's a lot that's uncanny about this show. we got a ton of emails. let's go through a few. Oh, Ted let us know that Wesley Strick, the screenwriter of the '91 film, played the doctor who tried to reset Max Kitty's arm in the hospital. So that's a very cool Fear Verse cameo. In terms of like who else might show up from the Fear Verse, my favorite suggestion we got from our listeners is that Kelsey Grammer who voiced Sideshow Bob in the Cape Fear episode of The Simpsons should show up and I'm like and like step on a rake or something. I think that would be really fun. Like what do you think?
6:55 >> >> Yeah, what would his role be? What do you want him to do in this show? >> I don't know, but he has to go like into the microphone. I don't know what I'm saying. >> >> Maybe he could be a fellow inmate in a flashback somewhere. >> Oh, that'd be really fun. we got an email from our listener Matt about the creator of this show, Nick Antosca, cuz I had like read some of his credits, but I missed this one. Matt said that he co-created a brilliant show on Netflix called Brand New Cherry Flavor.
7:19 >> Mhm. >> have you seen this? >> I haven't, but like I it's one that's been on my list perpetually cuz I really like Rosa Salazar. >> It's a You are such a Rosa Salazar guy. >> know how to take that, but it's true. >> Compliment. You know, for like Maddie's number one boy, you're going to you're going to vibe with Rosa Salazar. It's a wicked little Lynchian series about Hollywood in the '90s with a magnetic Rosa Salazar, Catherine Keener, and Manny Jacinto. Out for me.
7:42 >> Well, >> Keener's for all of us. Let's let's be real about that. >> ride that incorporates witchcraft, sexual politics, and the movie industry. I see echoes of it in Cape Fear with a lot of psychological terror, cycles of revenge, and life body horror. So, some fun, you know, if people are like, I have I have not trashed or pieced enough with Cape Fear, perhaps Brand New Cherry Flavor is for you. So, fun advice from Matt. Thank you so much.
8:05 We got a lot of emails about cutting your tomatoes with a serrated knife. >> Yeah, what did the What was the verdict on that? >> Guess what? You were right. I didn't doubt you, though, to >> You did. You were open-minded about the serrated knife situation. >> one should use a serrated knife, and the only reason that Max Caty pinched the tomato is because he was using a chef's knife and not a serrated knife. >> Please do report back if you have if you want to dabble with a serrated knife in your tomato slicing. I'd I'd be curious to hear your reports.
8:28 >> If an if a nice knife company wants to send us a a serrated tomato knife, we did get a listener who like sent us a link, and I was like, but actually it wasn't that expensive. Maybe we should just make Spotify buy us a tomato knife. >> My only problem with it is just that in the realm of one-utility kitchen tools, I mean, I just have too much stuff, you know? I can't have a knife that only cuts tomatoes.
8:47 >> have a pan just for Madeleine cookies. >> No comment. >> >> Okay, fair enough. on the drug front, we got a lot. Like, no one can agree on on what it is exactly >> Yeah. I believe we got no fewer than like eight different very confident assertions of like, oh no, this is definitely ketamine. Oh, this is definitely microdosing LSD. Oh, this is definitely GHB. >> Yes. Those are the three main candidates is LSD, GHB, and ketamine. I will say that like, Reese's email about LSD was sort of the most compelling to me because Reese was just like really negating all of the other options.
9:24 Barring some bizarre rare drug or completely inaccurate portrayal of some other drug, the drug Tom is taking should 100% be microdosing LSD. you don't microdose mushrooms in liquid form. GHB makes you feel super drunk super fast, so it wouldn't be something you would be taking while waiting in his son's hospital room. The only other plausible drug would be ketamine, but I don't believe you would take it that way either. My guess is that at some point it will get switched out for something making that mind control drug you meant maybe that mind control drug you mentioned or maybe macro dose of of LSD to make him freak out. And then Katie was like our listener Katie, it's definitely ketamine.
9:58 >> >> Jury's still out, but but LSD is sort of like an interesting you know. >> All interesting theories. I feel more confident than ever in our uncertainty of what this drug is. >> Correct. I just don't think it's THC. That's like some other people were like it's just THC. I was like I don't think that's what's happening. >> think so either. I did find the experience of reading these emails to be highly educational. I learned about some drugs I've never heard of before. So, you know, it's an it's it's really a journey for all of us.
10:25 >> What is Kit Farceur if not an educational program about the perils of living in Savannah, Georgia and interacting with a lot of animals. Okay. Fun fact from our listener Jessica. Trish who shows up with Ethan Embry in the previous episode at the pool is played by Sunny Mabry Mabry, I guess that's how you pronounce her name, which is Ethan Embry's real wife. They married for the first time in 2005, divorced in 2012, and then got remarried in 2015. So, a Hollywood love story.
10:50 >> love story and mirrors the chaotic energy that they have on the show. >> I really love it. Anything else? We did get an interesting email from our listener Nick who was talking about the way in which Max Cady is presented in this show versus the '90s version and the '60s version about specifically sort of like sexual assault as Max Cady's crime in the previous two iterations, but not you know, it's just merely murder you know, in in this iteration.
11:18 But removing the sexual assault element like what does that do to the story? You know, we've already talked about the fact that like there's no doubt in our minds when watching the previous versions that Max Cady did what he was convicted for. He definitely did it even if Nick Nolte's character in the 90s version like buried some evidence, but like he definitely did it. Here we're meant to as you said from the jump sort of like question what's going on. I still don't have any questions about that, but like the show wants us to ask that question for sure.
11:49 >> I have questions about the specifics. Clearly this is a menacing terrifying man who is >> What did he do to get that watch off that car salesman? >> Nothing good. >> Yeah. >> yeah, he's threatening lots of people at this point not just the Bowdens, right? Going around messing with guys like the guy at the car dealership, women like the one who came up and like tried to come on to him while he was having his ice cream cone.
12:10 It's like there is a level of terror to him that transcends this like personal fixation. >> Anyone who gets in his way or tells him no of some kind or irritates him, he feels justified in menacing them in some way or another to varying degrees. >> Very chill stuff. >> But what is kissing Anna in this episode if not some kind of sexual assault, I will say. So I don't think it's entirely absent from this show.
12:31 >> It's it's a forced moment. Yeah. It's incredibly uncomfortable. The two actors are also playing it in such a fascinating way. Where it's like there is a there is a familiarity to what is happening even if it is unwelcome and aggressive. Yes. >> Absolutely. Last but not least I think before we go into sort of like our scene by scene is that Matt, who is not watching the show but listening to the podcast, shout out you sickos out there. You're very special to us.
12:58 >> Just the realest ones honestly. To go along for an audio only journey for a show you're not watching. >> We did get a lot of emails from people saying you didn't remark upon the fact that Neveah's name is heaven spelled backwards. And you know what? We didn't and we should have because that's exactly the kind of show we're watching here, okay? >> Let's lower the bar as far as what we want to talk about on this pod.
13:17 >> Absolutely. But Matt said one thing that occurred to me listening to you all is if there's a character Angel X/Neveah, which is obviously heaven backwards, and a drug that might be called devil's breath. Is there any chance that Katie having a bunch of tattoos of eyes, based on your description, is somehow a reference to the old quote biblically accurate angel description of Ezekiel, quote their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands, and their wings were completely full of eyes as were their four wheels. So, I don't know you know, we're going to talk about the we get a more specific information about what religion it is that Max and perhaps some other people in this show are practicing. We'll talk about Centuria.
13:54 Not on an expert level by any means, but we'll talk about that a little bit later on. We don't We don't We ain't got no crystal ball. But, like these religious like heaven, devil's breath, all of that sort of stuff, that sort of biblical associations, do you have any thoughts on why they would be here? >> I mean, so much of it is so muddled at this point in terms of how they're being wielded, what they mean. I'm not even sure the show will ever have a good wrangling grasp of it, but I do think it also feeds into like that sort of description and the mirroring of Max Katie's visible like tattoos with the depiction of an angel specifically is a really evocative idea of like him as an avenging angel if nothing else, right?
14:35 This is somebody who clearly has been wronged in a way. We don't know the how or why yet. At least he is under the impression that he has been. And so like how worthy is that justice? What is his end game in all of this? I found myself asking that a lot as he was kind of navigating this these situations with Anna of like what does he want? Does he just want to have the we're not so different you and I sort of confrontation? Is it Is it a means of revenge? Is he trying to ruin her professional life or personal life or both? What What is he after exactly do we think?
15:06 >> Absolute ruination, I think. He's trying to like in this episode he compromises her, right? The fact that she goes to him for help puts her in like so vulnerable. You know, like he's in there, he gets a confession from this guy that she needs by whatever means necessary. >> And so yeah, dragging her down to his level, we're not so different you and I, but also like he recorded that got what else did he record? You know what I mean? And so like what does he what leverage does he have on her now? He's just going around gathering leverage on people or compromising them in one way or another and that's really scary and it's scary how dumb the Bodens are that they keep just like you know, willingly gleefully skipping into like random pop-up piercing you know, how houses or whatever whatever the case may be.
15:53 They're just like dumb dumb skunks getting drowned in a pool. >> It's part of what makes it trash your piece, you know, like you have to have characters this isn't straight horror, but they they are behaving like characters in a horror movie. >> behavior. I don't mean to insult skunks, but for the metaphor. >> We already covered this skunks are intelligent and I won't have you dragging their reputation through the mud on this show. >> Bunnies like what are they? They're dumb animal of prey some kind.
16:16 >> do seem pretty dumb. >> Okay. >> >> so let's start where the show starts which is opening on Max performing a ceremony and this is where we go into Centuria watch, right? So we get language later that makes it like overtly clear that we're talking about Centuria and we've seen evidence you know, the same you know, objects that he's using in his ceremonial process here is what we saw in the Boden household related to Zach is what we saw in Amy's house when I don't know if you recall, but she shot herself in the head twice.
16:50 >> Twice. I I can't unrecall that. >> So here's what our listener Melody said before presumably she saw this episode. I'm thinking it's Centuria similar to some other things that originated in Africa, but may have spread to Central and Latin America. Clues that stand out to me pomegranate seeds are symbolic in their religious practice, ritual animal sacrifice and cutting off parts of the animal a toe perhaps is a form of spiritual practice and they believe that they can derive power from eating parts of the slaughtered animal.
17:16 Can I interest you in a baby carrot, perhaps? The evil eye in Santeria represents an envy as a curse aside from the tattoos. Katie makes mention of the Bodens' wealth and enviable as enviable often. And like Katie, they often wear white linens during their ceremonies, and their other sacred color is blue. So, that's that's We are not pretending to be experts in any case. This is what Melody sent to us. If you have other more specific information that you would like to send to us, I always love to learn from people. So, press the TV at spotify.com. But we, you know, we get mention of like Orisha, Santero, Shango, which is you know, getting your crown.
17:54 Max mentions mentions Shango as this like this god or this spirit that is that he claims or is claimed to him of fire, thunder, lightning, virility, dance, drumming, strength, and justice in the in the Yoruba religion and in Santeria. So, Is this interesting to you? What do you think? >> Very. I think well, especially because we have sort of two tracks working here, right? There is the actual practicing that Max seems to be doing in this cold open, for example, right? Muttering words in Spanish, like we'll see kind of what the implications are of it I would say is practicing some kind of like twisted version of Santeria, right? Like like wielding it in a way that is clearly malicious and channeling this energy in a way that is untoward.
18:37 >> We were talking to our producer Dev, who knows much more about this than we do, and and we were sort of coming to this conclusion that like if if the show is presenting Max and Katie as a like righteous and true practi- practitioner of Santeria, that is like >> I would be shocked, frankly. >> bad and problematic. If they're like, he's taken this, you know, practice and this faith and twisted it to his you know, his means, his purposes, like that's sort of more what I think is going on. So, I don't think like what he's doing should be seen as indicative or representative of other practitioners of this particular >> there's however he's actually practicing it and whatever he may be intending with all that. And then there's what he uses it for in this conversation with Smiley, and really for Anna's benefit, I would say, of the plausible deniability of I'm going to say that we are of this similar like cultural background so that I can come with you, and you don't have to ask too many questions up front about what I'm going to do. And then as soon as you leave the room, I'm really just not going to even say what happened in there, but I have this recording, this temptation to dangle in front of you by like ultimately, other than maybe the affliction of justice, there's really nothing about what happens with Smiley and the snakes that has anything to do with Santeria or faith whatsoever, I wouldn't say.
19:48 >> Just information for us, the the viewer, more than anything else. And I do and and information that like you know, he said that this guy, Smiley, was at Tarwater prison with him, and so, you know, is this where because the flashbacks that we got to Max's childhood, you know, it was like a giant crucifix on the side of of the river and a sort of like baptism sort of imagery. So, I I I think that was the faith that was practiced by his family growing up.
20:16 >> Yeah. >> his dad. And so, we already put religious trauma on the board. So, this idea of like warping a religion into abuse, which was already existing in his childhood, is that what he then did with a practice that he might have encountered when he was at Tarwater with with this other guy, you know? >> Definitely could be. And the toes are paying the price. >> So, we're adding Santeria to the board, absolutely. do you want to talk about snake stuff now?
20:44 >> Let's talk about all the snake stuff. Here's my question for you as far as Smiley goes. How many snakes are too many snakes? >> Oh, so, we had snakes growing up in our like classrooms, like corn snakes. >> Okay. Like one tank, several corn snakes inside? >> I think never more than three snakes in one classroom. >> Okay. >> I think that's enough. think three is a good number. I did have a friend who had like a whole wall of like snake terrariums.
21:14 But I was deeply uncomfortable in that room. >> It's just a lot. I think if if you look, live your life. If you want to have a bunch of snakes, >> Yeah. >> I I I can't say I support you, but I support your choices. >> are dog people. Some people are cat people. >> Yes. >> Some people are snake people. >> I just can't wrap my head around the kind of pet having where you have to make a pass at the >> might wrap itself around your head.
21:35 >> Well, obviously that's part of it. But more so that I have to go like check every terrarium to make sure one of them has not escaped in the night. >> How do you feel about the fact that we are like Euphoria back in snake territory and severed toes territory? Euphoria is going to live with us like >> Narcissus, toes, snakes, like this is our personal vision board and I didn't want to manifest it, but apparently we did.
21:55 >> upset. So we're adding smiley pit. Do you think he's going to come back? Smiley pit's going to be added to the board. >> I think you this is probably the last we see of him, right? >> Could be, but I'm putting him on the board anyway. >> Snake stuff, definitely going on the board. >> There's so much snake stuff. >> very like cozy with the with the snakes. >> >> And then RIP that one snake.
22:13 >> Yeah. >> Our producer Kai was like, "There's not enough dead stuff on the board." So we're adding this dead snake to the board. >> clear personally if this was Rose, his one named snake. >> Yeah, you really wanted to make sure we got the identity of the snake right. >> I just think it it's in like the Ebert economy of characters that like if you're going to bring something up, they have to like pay off in a certain way.
22:31 So it's like the fact that one snake is named, wouldn't it stand to reason that that's the one that Max stabs through the head? >> RIP Rose. Is that the the titular piercing, do you think? >> I honestly lots of piercings abound. >> Piercings everywhere. All right. Tom, of course, belongs to a country club, so I'm adding the country club to the list. >> Is it a country club or is it just like a members-only club and is there a difference?
22:55 >> What's the meaningful difference to you? >> to say not much, but I bet if you're a member of a country club or a members-only club, subtle but meaningful. >> Like what is the difference? >> one, I think country club involves sports. >> Oh, you have to have a golf course attached, but this is not golf >> Or tennis courts. >> Okay. >> One of the two, or at least a at least a pool, you know?
23:11 >> there isn't a golf course like right outside the window there? >> Unclear. >> Okay, so you think it's like a gentleman's club. >> it could be a gentleman's club. >> Interesting. >> Could could be a a fancy elk lodge, you know? Who is to say? >> I definitely think Tom belongs to a country club. >> He's got the vibe. >> Okay, excellent. Country club, we're adding it to the list. No more club quibbling here. Max is here. He's joined Tom's country club.
23:35 Or gentleman's club, as you prefer. This is seems to be just like a a first foray into a a longer seduction attempt. Because that's what Max is doing, right? He's trying to be like >> Yeah. >> "You don't have to be afraid of me. And if you are afraid of me, I'm going to menace you." That's That's what he did with Ray. Do you feel like he was menacing Tom here? >> I thought so. It was more menacing.
23:54 >> Tell me more about it. >> I mean, you don't go up to a dad and say, "Hey, your son really needs a dad." >> You are the father, obviously. >> Like, nothing about this is seduction. It feels much more menacing. >> I don't know. Let me buy you a drink at your country club. >> See, that's in in the country club world. >> Oh. >> You know? That's he he just like put his dick on the table.
24:12 >> do you know about country club culture? >> tell you, we're all making it up as we go. But I'm saying it like he comes in with this like very aggressive, I would say like overbearing macho sort of energy. >> Are you from country club people? >> No. >> Okay. But you're a tennis guy? Do you feel like that's why >> I'm a public court tennis player. Come on. We're It's honestly very different. Don't even get me started. It's >> Okay, let's go back to you knowing the nuances of the the social ins and outs of the country club.
24:37 >> I just read it much more as like, "What's happening with Anna?" There is a type of seduction, right? A temptation of I'm going to dangle this bait on a hook for you of this piece of evidence you so desperately need. This was not that. And I think some of it is Tom is not as open to Max's advances and persuasion so far. He's like very repulsed by it. This whole interaction on his side, super cold, super removed. I'm getting out of here as soon as I possibly can. Does not want any part of it.
25:02 >> know, like Max is constantly performing inside of this episode. Even when he's like when he was menacing that guy at the dealership, it was with a smile on his face. Like he's still performing in some way. But when he started talking about his kid, that felt real to me. >> Kind of. I It's it's so interesting cuz Javier Bardem is so full of menace and at times so full of >> I don't mean it feels like earnest. Like I felt for him. It just felt like this is a a mania, an obsession of his.
25:35 >> I could see that. >> that sonogram photo on the on the like ceremonial, you know, >> Yeah, so it was >> at the beginning. >> It was sonogram photo, the draw the illustration of the AI slop that supposedly came from Zach, the cowrie shells, plantains or bananas, could be either one. >> Yeah. >> Was there anything else involved in that little like on a altar setup? >> I don't know, but we are adding the AI slop drawing.
25:58 >> >> Your rendering of Zach's rendering of the AI slop drawing is going on the board. >> on the board, for sure. >> Got to. >> I Anything else you want to say about this Tom and Max interaction? >> I I love these two in isolation, too. I hope we get much more of this. I hope it's not just Max and Anna. Like I'm as interested in this dynamic as well. Let's go. >> Oh, I will say one thing about the drawing. I know we're kind of shifted off of like this is Max's unborn son who is being drawn.
26:27 >> Yeah, AI slop Adam, you want to you want to tell the folks what got the biggest laugh while we were watching this episode? Cuz I think it might have been that. I think it might have been that drawing. >> The drawing is it's tough. The hairline is tough. There's a lot happening. I say this not uncharitably having acknowledged all of those things. If you want to adjust the bangs just so on that drawing, if you want to bring a couple of lines in, It doesn't not look like Natalie.
26:54 >> Oh, wow. Look at you. Scad himself. Our critic himself. >> I'm just saying, a couple of quick alterations and we we've been debating since the first episode like is Natalie Max Katie's biological daughter. >> To go back to another show we're covering or have been covering. You're saying that Widow's Bay Island does not look like a hand, but you're saying that AI slop's drawing of Adam looks like Natalie. >> From a certain point of view.
27:20 >> >> All right, Juliette Lewis and Amy Adams. Here we go. first of all, Rob, I know you don't like Halloween, but would you reconsider perhaps dressing up in a green rain slicker and a and a face mask? >> I would say why wait for Halloween? Why aren't we doing this for the season finale? >> I think I'm I'm I'm like full up on costumes with all the vampire I'm doing on House of R. >> That's your own doing.
27:42 >> you want to get a blonde wig and a green rain slicker and a and a face mask, >> consider it. >> you should consider it. >> Just know that if I do those things and we do a podcast with me wearing them, I will be performing in a like breathy, lilting, creepy voice the entire time. >> That's not so different from your current voice. Okay, listen. You're welcome. great stuff. Fingers in the window is is a real move, right?
28:05 Anna cracks the window to be like, "Hi, I wouldn't do that." If I saw Juliette Lewis prancing in the street, I >> You talked straight through the window or you driving off? >> Driving off. >> Wow. >> And if she's in front of me, I will keep driving until she That's actually technically not true. I the the place I lived before LA, there were just wild turkeys on the road all the time and they would just get in front of your car and sometimes I would just sit there cuz I'm like, I'm not going to menace the turkey. They're scary.
28:34 >> >> So, I would just wait for them to like gobble on and they would just take their time. >> I feel very confident that this is the only podcast where you'll hear Juliette Lewis compared to a wild turkey. >> I was sure Larry has a theory about who Juliette Lewis might be playing, right? Juliette Lewis is playing his Max Kitty's half-sister, I have to believe. Knows about his dog cage childhood and his and is the right age. Kitty said his father had another family when Kitty joined them in at 13. And as I mentioned Larry wrote another email about this. As I mentioned before, there was a young woman watching on the shore during the baptism. So, how do you feel about this as like a a half-sister figure?
29:11 >> I'm compelled. I think some of it, if we want to tie in >> Maxine and Katie. >> Yeah, >> >> Maxine and Katie would be very funny. But if we want to tie in Anna and Juliette Lewis's encounter later in this episode where she's talking about the {quote} horrors that she has tried to warn off of being in Max's orbit. >> Yeah. >> I mean, clearly that is meant to be intimidating. It's meant to be like scary to watch and her framing and the way she's talking about it. I also wonder if it is more this is a damaged person trying to make a genuine effort of concern in a in her way.
29:43 >> how I read it. >> And so, the idea that she knows Max well enough to try to warn these women away from him and she's attempting to do that with Anna but in a way that comes on quite strong. >> But also like I think like whatever happened if she's his half-sister or not, the implication to me is that this woman you know, {quote} was made a by like was also whatever he did psychologically, sexually to Amy and Melissa, he did to her as well.
30:10 >> question, right? Is is she in the line of these other women who have been romantically entangled or is she more of a half-sister >> The way that she sort of like well >> Or both. This I mean, this is the show where it would be both. And who who am I kidding? >> I already have an incest card for another pair of characters on this show. >> maybe half-siblings. So, yeah. >> Cycles repeat. she was sort of like the way she was dancing in her underwear to the Butthole Surfers on that video did not strike me as purely sisterly.
30:40 So, that's all I'd to about that. >> a complicated relationship, clearly whatever it is. >> let's let's just wrap up the the Juliette Lewis of it all. given that there was a kiss between Max and Anna, an uncomfortable kiss, we are adding that kiss to the board. >> Got to do it. >> she shows up and she says, "I saw you with him." And she has a video camera. So, to me that says there is now video evidence of Max and Anna kissing.
31:11 >> Yes. >> That without the context of him like kind of forcing himself on her, if someone else sees it, again, that puts Anna in a compromising position. >> Especially at a distance. Yeah, like from that remove where you don't have all the information. Could definitely be wielded against her or the Bowdens in whatever kind of way. >> Right. >> I I think it's kind of an underlying underlining thing throughout this episode, this idea of not only you could be watched at any time, but you could be recorded at any time.
31:36 >> Yeah, that that sort of tech paranoia. >> The tech paranoia, and it comes through with a smiley and the idea of like a one-party consent audio state. >> Yeah. >> Got to know your rights. >> Yeah. >> it comes through at the car dealership where that whole encounter is being recorded at it again at a slight remove. So, who's to say what it is or what it looks like, but the impression at a distance could >> That might be the kind of thing that ultimately works against Max Katie, right? As he has this smiling image to so many different people.
32:00 >> Yeah. >> Here he is kind of intimidating this guy and being like right in his face in a way that is clearly a confrontation. >> That idea of like you could always be watched inside your home, own home, or anywhere is is something to think about. Okay. >> And in this case, not only can you be watched, but then you can be tastefully reflected through like I love the glare of both the sun and the giant ass light that Juliette Lewis has attached to her camcorder.
32:24 >> Again, just kind of >> That's a great shot. >> keeping us like at a slight back foot in terms of ever being able to read her face or impressions or what she indicates at any time. >> We cut from this, and this is like one of several visual flourishes that I quite enjoyed in this episode. We cut from this to Natalie stabbing a piece of fruit at breakfast, which will then of course come back during the nipple piercing scene. But I just like loved that image of like the juicy red strawberry getting you know pierced there.
32:53 I'm putting learner's permit on the on the board. Natalie is very stressed out that she does not have a driver's license. So I'm putting learner's permit >> Do you think we're going to get a scene later this season where she needs to drive like Tom's been shot and she needs to drive him to the hospital but she's like no I can't. I don't I don't yet have my license. >> it count I don't know the does it count as having a super a licensed supervised driver if they are like passed out and gunshot in the back seat of the car or something like that?
33:17 >> Georgia probably. >> Yeah I don't know what the rules are in Georgia. >> It's fair. >> By the way California is a two-party consent recording state. I do know that. So I don't I don't know all the one-party con that's it seems like everywhere should be a two-party consent recording state. >> I'm going to be honest it's mostly the ones you'd expect. >> Okay tough tough for Georgia. That's a real southerner on southerner crime for me. I'm just >> It's just it's just the truth.
33:38 >> peanut butter is here at breakfast. something really struck me about this breakfast scene. Not just that like that Natalie calls Tom a cuck. Like she does drugs one time and she is like ready to be a bad seed. Like she is ready. >> Did you take this as a proper Chekhov's cuck / cuck shadowing? >> Oh cuck shadowing. >> Every everything that is in the air as far as what her actual parentage may be. >> cuck shadowing to the board.
34:06 Were you just mad that I coined trash trophies and you wanted to put cuck shadowing in there? >> John I'm never mad at your brilliance, you know. I I simply want to follow you into the depths. >> Okay great. cuck shadowing is interesting because that is our that is our theory. Well no not really because she would have been cucking Paul not Tom. >> is still I mean he's even a worse the second cuck. >> Oh.
34:27 >> The step cuck. >> The step cuck. >> >> The cuck who stepped up. >> He is kind of the Kaku who stepped up. Shout out to Tom doing actual parenting in this episode. He's trying. >> He really is. >> say it's always successful. I wouldn't say everything he does is perfect, but he's making an honest-to-goodness effort. >> "Golly gee willikers, we went to an art show and I think it's going well with Zach." That was just like one of my Like, "Hey buddy, if you want to go to This is great. This is really neat."
34:52 Reminded me a lot of some dads I know. We're just sort of like, "I love this art show stuff you're interested in." >> Also, all the voice-to-text with him is It makes me laugh every time. >> The thing that really struck me about that breakfast scene though, is Ray being like such a member of the family. >> Yeah. >> Like he's in the kitchen making coffee. >> good coffee. >> familiar Savannah Coffee Roasters shout out. he's like familiar with Natalie.
35:13 You know, like he's just like friends with all He's not just like Anna's co-worker. He's like embedded in the family, and I just think that that's that's a difference of this archetype of this role that we've seen in previous iterations of this story. a more incorporated role. >> has been there from the very beginning, right? Like he was over there for the barbecue to open episode one. Like he is fully integrated here. >> Abs- I just think there's a difference between being invited for a barbecue and like straight up making coffee in someone else's kitchen. That's a degree of intimacy that is hard to come by, I think.
35:42 >> people in your life are you familiar enough with who you Like you're not related to who they could just wander in and make coffee in your kitchen and you wouldn't really bat an eye? >> I think literally like one person, honestly. How about you? >> list. Probably fewer. I think it would it would be very weird for somebody to do that. >> is your sanctuary. So, it's a different thing for you, I think. Zach in therapy. All right. So, we get we get more of the Tom talking heads flashback. We get more information.
36:05 That he has told everyone that his brother died in a car accident when clearly his brother like hung himself. >> At least told his kids that. >> Yeah, I don't know if what Anna knows. >> Yeah, that would be the variable. >> talking heads poster is there, and then the thing that you thought was He-Man is very close. >> Oh, it's Conan Conan the Barbarian. >> Yeah. Very close. Tom fires the therapist because it seems to me that Tom fires therapist cuz he's like, I don't want to talk about this thing. I'm in deep denial about this thing that happened to me.
36:33 >> Of course. >> That's what he's like, get out of here. Like, not anything to do with Zach where he's like, Zach doesn't trust you. Zach doesn't take you seriously. >> all it's all a ruse. >> Yeah. >> Can I stand up for my guy Tom for 1 second though? >> Yeah, your guy Tom. >> He needs to be in therapy to talk about this stuff. I think the therapist suggesting we are going to loop in your lifelong deep-seated family trauma into your son's much more recent guilt-ridden selfie leaking trauma and get like why are we entangling these things when these people both need dedicated individual care?
37:06 >> And this is where we got an email from our listener Nicole, where I really agree. I'm not we're not parents, but I agree with Nicole who says, as a parent, if my daughter bit off her toe and swallowed it, after the run, she would have immediately been in the best psychiatric care Savannah had to offer. There would be no trip home, no Savannah Coffee Roasters. >> No. >> I would have taken at least a week off work. My life would stop, and I would tell my boss what's going on so she could have a normal human reaction and reinforce any other choices. every time I see Zach do something, text weird people, walk around his house, shake hands with Max Katie, exist without help, I am taken out of the story and just made super angry. And I agree. We are adding a segment to this podcast of like like too dumb to live and I I don't think this is the thing I'm but like Tom and Anna are not only like questionable parents to begin with, but like their behavior around Zach is I can't understand it.
38:00 >> That is the word, incomprehensible. >> Your kid biting off their toe, as the email alludes to, would be the only thing you think and talk about for a long time. >> Like I get that Anna like Tom I like you know because Tom is like a shittier lawyer or what like a like a not a less altruistic lawyer. So Tom is the one who seems to be like taking more time off work even though Lexi's coming over and they're they're microdosing drugs while Zach is upstairs.
38:23 >> of off work. >> >> But I understand that Anna is like, I have an important job, but I'm with Natalie where I'm just sort of like, you, dude. Like, take some time off work. Be with your family right now. >> I mean, Natalie is noticing, if no one else is, that, you know, Anna's following through on a lot of things she says she's going to do. >> All right, sports corner. You wanted to linger with Natalie at soccer. What do you want to say?
38:44 >> I mean, many things. One, this whole scene is very strange. As far as Nevaeh creeping up behind the goal, having a full-on conversation, nobody seems to notice her. Natalie just walks off, no one seems to notice. >> Oh. Are you positing Nevaeh is not real? >> I'm not, but like, the show almost shoots it that way, as if she's a figment of Natalie's imagination. Maybe that's kind of like the subtext, but not the literal. Like, she's not a ghost.
39:10 >> Yeah. >> that said, I think Natalie being a goalie, to me is like a very specific character, be a goalkeeper if you prefer. >> I do. >> very true to her character as I understand it. And I would say specifically the idea that like, a goalie >> Are you pandering to the world You're not a soccer guy. >> Okay. >> But I'm a sportsman. >> Okay. >> >> What do you know about goalies? >> Well, I I think a goal the role of a goalie is similar to many and many different industries and walks of life where it's like, if you're doing that job well, >> Yeah.
39:37 >> no one really notices or talks about it unless you make the exceptional save. >> Okay. >> But the one time you up, the Callies of the world are like, what's your problem? Right? Like, all fingers are pointed at you. This is like pressure-packed, perfectionist position where you get really very little praise for the day-to-day of what you do. >> Yeah. >> That feels true to everything else we're hearing about Natalie. >> I really agree. I'd be curious what, you know, we know that Bill Simmons is watching and enjoying this show. I'll I'll be curious to see if we get any texts about the soccer play, cuz I remember he had a lot of notes about Yellowjackets and like, how the you know, >> >> how the young women were playing soccer on that show. So, I'll be curious what he thinks.
40:11 >> she is clarified here more spiritually Megan Rapinoe than actually Megan Rapinoe. >> Yeah, tough. >> It's okay. >> maybe she had those shoes that her grandfather tried to give her. She would have done a better job. >> Well, it's not even it's not even a quality thing. It's just a positional issue, you know? >> That's true. That's true. Okay, Tom and Zach. Let's go fishing. Let's go to the art show. Let's take a dip in the pool.
40:32 Hey, where's your toe? Patrick Wilson? Emmy. >> I ate it again? >> Emmy >> >> Emmy Emmy for Patrick Wilson. Hey, where's your toe? >> I really don't think there was a single Patrick Wilson moment in this episode, line or reaction shot, that I did not have like a physical response to. The man is completely positive. I want to be very clear about that. I I love him on this show. >> Hey, where's your toe? >> Someone to carpet some DM.
40:59 >> Joe Anders, who plays Zach, I thought he was really good in that art show scene when Beth, the mom, was really laying into him in a way that like seemed unnecessary. Like I No, I'm not defending him. >> not defending him, but when Tom's like, "Beth, we're leaving." Like let let Tom take his son away and just de-escalate. She's escalating. Let's de-escalate. That's what I have to say about that. >> if you're the parent of somebody who's been wronged in a profound and at that point like social life altering way, if not life altering way, you get a little defensive, you know?
41:37 >> But I don't think this is Beth's first rodeo at like telling Zach that he's a piece of >> me tell you, it's not her last. Like that woman has not said everything she has to say. >> Tom's like, "Beth, I'm trying I'm trying to handle it." >> All of this >> She doesn't even know about the toe. >> Here's Here's the thing. If this were a neutral situation, >> I'm not defending what Zach did, obviously, with this young man.
41:57 >> that off mic for weeks. >> >> You've been saying You've been saying that Sophia really had it coming. It's like I just thought it was very weird from you, Joe. >> >> Really? I'm very afraid. What were you going to say? >> If this were a neutral situation, they're at the at the grocery store, they turn the aisle into the and they're like, "Oh my god, here we are." >> He did follow her to the art show.
42:14 >> He stalked her to the art show. >> fair. >> He had He had the brilliant idea of like >> Tom saying, "Beth, we're leaving." I want I want the interaction to be over. I don't want to continue the interaction with this like clearly troubled child. Maybe if I'm Beth, I'm like, "Hey, why isn't he in therapy literally right now?" Like, you know, something like that. But you're a bad person and you should marinate in your guilt forever.
42:38 >> It's Look, it's not the most constructive thing to say to a child, but I don't think her role in here is like as a parent of the community. It says a parent of her own daughter. >> You need help. You're a bad parent. Get him help. Why isn't he committed to that guy yet? >> maybe maybe. I mean, he deserves to be, too. >> Maybe. Beth, we'll leave. And then we get the the pool scene.
42:58 So, we get this like I might I may go stick my head in the oven, which triggers Tom again to think of his brother. We see him sort of hit himself in the face, >> Yeah. >> which we already saw Zach do earlier this season and Tom stop him and be like, "Hey, don't hit yourself." But this is something he learned from Tom, obviously. Something like Tom does to sort of snap him like when he's not microdosing. I guess he's like slapping himself out of >> out of these moments of recollection, yeah.
43:22 >> or whatever. and then we get the pool moment. Did you have a moment where you were like, you know, Zach is is trying to end his life in the pool? Like what How did you react to that? >> I thought it would probably be bait and switch. it's just too early in the season for stuff like that. And really, I think the importance of so many of these scenes is establishing Tom as the boiling kettle character, right? Like Zach, we're we're showing everything he's going through. He's having a really hard time processing what he's done and what he's done to hurt Sofia among other people.
43:49 But even using his therapy as a chance to turn and look at Tom and say like, "You got a lot of stuff you need to work out. You're not talking to anybody about. You're lying about actively." And even his his advice to Zach in this moment after he dives in the pool is >> I thought about the man I wanted to be, and over time I became him. >> Exactly. That sounds so much to me like I have I created an artifice and I have crawled inside it and I am pretending to be that person, but I am not actually that person.
44:15 >> Like what I wrote down is like what is lurking underneath for Tom, right? So like what when you when a Max Cady or someone else chips away at at what you know, the veneer of success and happy home and nuclear family and all this sort of stuff is is what this show is is what the story of Cape Fear has always been about. How do we unearth the rot underneath this sort of like idealized idealized American dream? So like in the '90s version we just like learn more and more about Nick Nolte's character as it goes on or the ways in which Juliette Lewis's character is not being supervised and all this other stuff like that.
44:58 And so here it's like what what lies are responsible for propping up this in like extremely affluent white, you know, family in Savannah, Georgia. >> And the ways that they're kind of self-destructed within those lies, right? Everything what what Tom is hiding, his own past trauma with his brother and his inability to be open about it, is what leads him to think that his own son might be suicidal, that leads him to dive into that pool to save him. When in reality Zach is trying to do the thing his therapist told him to do, which is like activate this dive reflex. It's like a very real thing in terms of quieting anxiety in your head and drowning it out with like physiological response of breathing, right? You're streamlining everything that's going on inside you. So he tried to do the thing his therapist said. Tom interrupts him because of his own and that is like a straight line from there to him reaching out to Angel Lex at the end of this episode cuz he needs relief from somewhere and he can't get it in his own home anymore.
45:52 >> I guess, but like it's also that came directly from Sophia texting him. >> For sure. >> but you're like if he had had more time in dive therapy he would have been able to handle that better. >> everything is being shown in his own home is like even when you try to take care of yourself and do the things your therapist says, it's not going to work. Your family won't allow it. Just like the atmosphere in this place is inhospitable to it.
46:13 >> Stifling. All right. I forgot to add some things to the board. Conan the Barbarian is definitely going on the board. Love him. pool therapy. You want to make this dive therapy or pool therapy? >> pool therapy. >> Pool therapy is going on the board. Nipple piercing. >> You want to talk about the nipple piercings? >> Not really. >> I mean we we went straight from soccer into everything else, but this is a significant part of this episode and it was a lot.
46:39 >> a ton. What do you want to say about it though? I don't know what to say. >> I just think everything that's happening with Nat and Nivea in this episode is so much rooted in the idea of like how far can Nat just be pushed at this point? >> And it's fast. >> It's it's far and it's fast and >> But like speaking of like what's lurking underneath for like, you know, for Tom to say, I've crafted this persona and then I became that person dipped in handsome like, you know, successful lawyer. For Natalie, as Nivea sort of deconstructed last week, you know, it's like the the currency of buying your security with perfect grades, college applications, playing soccer, all these things.
47:18 It makes sense that a young for a younger person that that sheen of perfection would crack faster. >> Yes. >> It really does seem like though it was like one party pushed her right over the edge. But here we are. We're in nipple piercing territory now. >> We're in nipple piercing territory. I think there is part of Nat's character who yeah, by her background alone is just very gullible. Like there are puppies and candy in this unmarked van level gullible. Like >> pop up piercing.
47:44 >> She is susceptible >> house. >> She's just like going along with this stuff in a way that I think makes sense for who she is and where she's been. I also am fascinated by Nivea's role in this story for both kids where she has wormed her way into both of their lives as the pressure release for them, right? This idea that after I mean we even probably also need to talk about breaking into Nat's crushes house and dressing in her clothes to have sex in her bed.
48:11 >> Wi-Fi jammer. >> Yeah. >> The mayor has a Wi-Fi jammer that can deactivate home security systems. >> Can imagine where that would be useful. >> Yeah. So, what home security systems have we seen glitching so far on the show? Got it. Drug vision. When Nat's on the bed and she's like, "You look pretty in my crushes clothing." Like it gets all like it's almost like bug >> heads look so pretty. >> bug vision like refracted you know, sort of thing. And then >> is this is post smoke being blown in her mouth, too. So, who knows what was going on with that.
48:43 >> in that Yeah, we get the blowing of smoke and then the blowing of the of the dust powder later. And if it is this drug, this what devil's breath, it makes sure it makes sense that it would come in these like exhalation forms. Incest. We're putting it on the board. Incest. It >> demands to be >> Natalie is Max Katie's daughter, which is our strong suspicion. >> Yep. >> And as we learn by the end of the episode, Nevera is Max Katie's daughter.
49:08 Then this, you know, young I just feel bad for Natalie because like >> It's not good. >> You know, she's she's like connecting with someone. It's a bad choice, but like she's connecting with someone after being rejected by her friend, who was also her crush, after feeling ostracized. And she like found someone to have this like and she's like, "I always get anxious with other people. With you it's quiet." And she's being manipulated and it's probably her half sister. And you know what? That's a cautionary tale, kids.
49:39 >> Is it? Oh. >> >> Do we need to be on the lookout for that? >> I don't know. >> No, but I do think there are the literal drugs, which clearly have an influence, and then there is sort of the drug of this sort of like pressure release for these kids, who are wound up so tight in part because they are in a house that is a web of lies in ways that they both understand and don't.
49:58 >> With Zach it's more complicated though because he was just like sort of already a hot mess before all of this started. >> But it's like again, how how do kids become a hot mess? I think there's lots of organic ways that could happen. >> long have they been in contact? >> Him and Angel X? >> Yeah, did that start after he lost all of his friends in the Sophia incident or did that happen as part of it in the first place?
50:19 >> would I mean I could I guess it could have been a motivating factor and we do get Zach trying to insist like I'm not this person, you don't know the full story kind of stuff with Sophia. She understandably does not want to hear any of it. so maybe there is another shoe to drop as far as that initiating action. >> To go back to you implying that I am siding with Zach over Sophia, I will just say this. Sophia is allowed to say anything she wants to say.
50:42 >> Mhm. >> Like I have no objection of her being like I unblocked her number just to tell you what a piece of you are. Like >> Yeah. >> that I'm like totally on board with. It's the adult woman that I was just sort of like, can we have >> >> The adult woman is her mom. >> all right, what haven't we talked about that we want to talk Okay, so when Max is talking to Rae and Anna about helping with Smiley, he says this and very important thing, right? It's not enough to persuade, you have to compel.
51:08 And so this idea of compulsion, whether it's like drug assisted, you know, when we watched Amy in the first episode shoot herself in the head twice, it certainly seemed upon the second time that she was compelled over the phone to do something. >> Yes. >> so what other forms can these compulsions take? Like if Max is trying to persuade the car dealer to give him, you know, sell him the car and and be cool and calm down. but then he just like compel What is What is compulsion mean for him? Violence?
51:43 >> I think in the case of how do I get this watch, it's violence, right? That's not a I'm going to blow drugs in your face and slowly convince you, but I think there are clearly a lot of ways that someone like Max Katie can be persuasive persuasive and someone like Nivea can be persuasive. And the most interesting ones to me are the ones that play with this germ of an idea that's already there. Right? Like Nivea, even without the drugs, plants the seed of you're the perfect daughter who isn't allowed to do anything wrong. And then just kind of keeps feeding that idea until it becomes something that maybe under the influence of a substance becomes more easily manipulable.
52:17 >> Yeah, if there is this I mean like it's wild to me that this drug apparently exists in the world, but we also got like several other emails about it. So like if this drug exists that is makes people sort of vulnerable to suggestion, I mean that's scary to me that that exists. But also like when you go back to that party scene, >> Mhm. >> you know, she gets her high and then she has she is like sort of feeding her these ideas like almost like a hypnotic suggestion sort of thing. Like they're not your real family, all these other things. So, yeah.
52:45 upsetting. Not great. Guess what? This show. >> Oh, we should note Nivea does bust out the knife in Callie's house. >> I meant to add that to that. We don't have a card for it yet, but yeah. She's so ready to kill Callie's father for no reason. She is eager to do that. >> Yes. >> So, >> is too goo-goo eyes / distracted to realize that the girl behind her has busted out this whole ass knife.
53:10 >> It's a It's a sizable knife, too. >> It's It's significant. >> I think we did it. I think we did. >> Zack's burner phone makes an appearance. We already knew it existed, but we did get to see it. So, there's that. It's in his closet. Also, when Tom comes into Zack's room and he's like, "What are you doing in here?" and he's like he tells him something, but it doesn't seem true. >> he was like looking for his Asics.
53:32 >> Yeah. >> When reality is probably digging out that burner phone, I would think. >> like that. Okay. Anything else? >> I mean there's just like a lot of random loose ends in this. For example, the idea of Tom coming to his son to take him fishing and it's it's it's so clear at least it was clear to me in the way that it's played in that moment that like Zach is of the age where he maybe is trying to distance himself distance himself from the stuff he did when he was a kid.
53:56 >> things. >> But also kind of wants to do it and like him reliving that moment and like sketch like charcoal sketching out the trout later. >> Yeah. >> There's clearly a relationship, right? And Tom in his way yeah, the advice may not be perfect because it reflects his own imperfections, but he is trying to reach his son in like a really earnest place when they have their moment in the pool. And I don't know that we've seen any of that from Anna as of yet. Like her relationship with her kids seems so much more distant, so much more like practical and even in the practical part she can't show up for the driver's licensing.
54:28 >> Yeah. Anna bad mom? >> I'm not willing to go that far, but it she's not a good mom. >> Tom great dad? >> Definitely not willing to go that far. >> Okay. >> They both seem like quite bad at parents, but some more >> Tom at least in this episode appears to be trying. >> He is attentive to the details. He's showing up for the therapy appointment. >> Attentive to the details. All right, we're going to hand out some quick awards. Too dumb to live. Who's the most too dumb to live in this episode?
54:54 >> Anna. >> Anna. It might be Anna every week honestly, but it's definitely Anna this week. >> She showed up to a known murderer's house and was like >> Hi. >> >> You might be entitled to a settlement. I'm a lawyer. >> thinking she can just ask all her cute questions >> Right. >> and it's going to be totally fine. >> Right. >> What are you This man is talking about how his snake needs more bones. What are you doing here?
55:20 >> And she's like, that's cute. Can we talk about where you were the night of Yeah, it's a it's a lot. Anna too dumb to live. Come on. Trashiest moment? >> I think this has to be Okay, here's the thing. Trashiest moment for Vince that's incest. >> It's incest. >> That's it? >> How is it not incest? >> They Well, at least one of those characters doesn't know. Nivea may or may not know. >> Okay. What's your >> I'm going to say for the characters in the show >> trashy?
55:50 >> I think it's It takes many forms and many styles. >> Cuz to me it's like what is the soapiest twist of this, right? >> Okay. See, I was thinking like what is the trashiest behavior that's exhibited? >> Yeah. Cuz I don't think No, I don't think what Natalie does there is trashy cuz she doesn't know. I mean She's broken into someone's house, but like she's a teenager exploring things, whatever. >> That is a soapy twist, though.
56:09 >> of the show to be like let's do some incest. Let's see some teenage girls. >> See, my Mine is some of both. I would say the trashiest decision is showing up to a random house that's a pop-up nipple piercing situation. >> Tough. >> Wouldn't do it. >> Yeah. >> The trashiest like filmmaking cinematic choice in terms of the show is made is definitely the puncturing of the strawberry as the nipple piercing. It's both amazing and undeniably trashy.
56:36 >> let's just add to the incest argument, though, the triangulation of she's also definitely slept with Zach. So, Nivea slept with >> I think she has. They've done some stuff. >> He He feels like she could have strung him along without actually doing a lot, but >> You think that's just a lip biting emoji and nothing else has happened? She sent him like racy selfies? You think nothing else has happened? >> So, do you think she has the lip biting emoji as her like profile avatar picture somewhere?
57:06 >> that in there for her? >> Maybe. >> Gross. >> It feels like the kind of thing unfortunately he might do. >> So gross. >> >> Why It is It is so much grosser if he did it, but I can't articulate why. >> >> Horrible cuz he had to scroll through all the emojis like, you know what I think >> That one. >> That's the one. Last but not least, what are we calling this? >> We are just line read.
57:26 >> Weirdest line read. >> Yeah. >> I think we agree. >> Yeah, you want to do the honors? >> I don't know if I can. Do I have the cadence right? Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous. Is that right? >> >> I want to do it like >> It's a little Tommy Wiseau, isn't it? >> Do you want to do >> Well, I think the the opening is definitely a "Hey." So, you got to go, "Hey, nice car. Nice ride. I'm jealous."
57:46 >> >> Also, the way the particular relish is very funny. The relish that Javier Bardem puts on ride-sharers. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is just one of our greatest working actors. >> on your butt and cherry on your ass. >> He's just He's doing it in a way no one else can. >> He's menacing Ray here because Ray had the audacity to say, "We're good. We don't need your help." And he's like, "An obstacle. Let me with him." So, again, you if you cross him even in the slightest, he will come with you in one way or another. And also, on the sort of like, are they half siblings front, you know, should we connect what Juliette Lewis does to Amy Adams in her car, you know, like in terms of like come up to the driver's side window and sort of like reach in somehow?
58:30 Never great. I don't ever want anyone ever at my driver's side window if I'm like in the car and not expecting them. Like that's There's >> See, I would have expected you would love that kind of thing. >> Oh, it just scared >> >> You don't have to be mean to a friend. I'm just sort of like, don't do that. >> Well, yeah. >> Text me that you saw my car. >> >> And I'll find you, you know?
58:51 >> I think it's good behavior. It's good advice for everybody. >> happen where like someone saw me in the like someone saw me in the Safeway parking lot and they're like, "Hey." And I'm like, "No. Don't do that." >> up. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely not. In a >> Also, shout out Safeway. Now, I guess I have to shop at Vons. Whatever. What a calamity for me. >> Don't creep up on anyone in their car. Don't stick your fingers into their window.
59:10 >> No. >> Certainly don't reap it reach in and grab the steering wheel to stop them from driving away. >> Nice car. Nice car. I'm jealous. >> I And look, Ray is now totally on board. He I think he fully understands the Max Katie situation now. Before, he was wondering like, "Is this really it, Anna? Are you sure that this guy is capable of these things? Now he's experienced a little bit of it. I feel like he he kind of gets the gist.
59:33 >> some detective work. >> Clearly. He's the one tying things together as far as Naveah's parentage goes. >> Any other questions you have? Anything you want to talk about going forward before we unveil the board? >> I would say two things to flag. One, at the SCAD art show, we get a clip of Alfred Hitchcock's Shadow of a Doubt, a movie about a charming but ultimately sus- suspicious man and the people in his life kind of starting to put the clues together. Can't think of how it would would possibly relate, Joe.
59:59 >> Do you like Shadow of a Doubt? >> It's honestly been a very long time since I've seen it. I would say I liked it. Not not upper Hitchcock for me. >> I would like to wonder how Joseph Cotton would deliver a nice car, a nice car, I'm jolly. >> Does Nobody put that into any AI system, please. We don't want to wish that on anything. This is strictly wonder and whimsy. >> I don't want to see it. Yeah, Shadow of a Doubt, which is a great movie sort of slightly remade into the movie Stoker, which is a movie we both really I feel like we talked about this recently, though I can't remember why. Shadow of a Doubt and Stoker.
60:33 >> It's never a bad time to talk about Sherwood Park, so like, you know. >> All right. what's your other thing you wanted to >> Oh, just like so the SJLP, when they're trying to get movement on Ruben Ramirez's case before Max had started compelling people to help. >> Yeah. >> they have this press conference. I thought it was yet another moment of sort of like the celebrity of true crime >> Mhm. >> obfuscating and like eclipsing anything else, right? Like Max, the idea was bring him into the fold was going to help them like raise funds, raise awareness, be something they could leverage and weaponize.
61:03 >> It's so clear that even his public presence is totally outside their control. >> Well, like when he shows up the car, you know, like not just like the guy that he is like, "Remember when I your wife so hard she broke a blood vessel in her eye?" And I feel like we would be remiss if we did not repeat that line, but also then the other guy is like, "Hey, Max Katie and my Carl, you know, like he is so famous locally that this is how they're reacting." So.
61:23 >> And this can't be the last that we hear from the Katie Hawks. They they will play a role in the back part of the season somewhere. >> them to the board. >> Let's do it. >> Okay. anything else? >> Let's Let's go to the board. >> Let's bring out the board. All right, week three of this podcast, week two of the board. We've got the cards that we're going to add. We're not going to do that one on camera right now. We will do it eventually.
61:41 >> Is that bonus content? Is that like subscriber-only stuff? Us struggling with string? >> slowly pin things to a board. >> into something. >> We have started the stringing process. We It's not a complete process. obviously, we have yet to connect for sure sex >> Yep. >> to like Natalie and and Nivea, for example. >> our first confirmed sex? I guess so. I mean, other than children being born. So, somebody had sex. >> Anna had sex at one point, for sure sex.
62:05 >> We can only assume. >> But yeah, here we are. I mean, Tabitha and her cameraman, I guess. but that's just like a one card to one card situation. Anyway, so this is our our the beginning of the string. It's only going to get more demented from here. Rob has requested images to add to the board. I think next week we're going to do it a little differently, but we just wanted to give a board checkup. Anything you want to say? Any connection you're most eager to draw here?
62:30 >> I'm eager to, but also terrified of, is Peanut Butter the Cat over here connecting to I mean, some of the more insidious characters in our story. >> Peanut Butter the Cat down through cooking? The cooking card. >> Cooking to dry turkey to Max. >> To Max. >> >> Don't cook the cat, please. >> Is the cat going to get eaten? >> The cat could get eaten on this show. >> saying. Peanut Butter to cooking, not the dry turkey to Max. Is Max going to cook the cat?
62:56 >> I really hope not. >> Peanut Butter for a reason. We still don't have a name for Juliette Lewis's character. >> No. Or or Ethan Embry's character, I don't believe. >> Right, nothing official for Ethan Embry's character. >> What about you, Joe? Where are you looking to get some clarity or some connection on this board? >> We already drew this connection in advance, but I am curious about the like Juliette Lewis to Amy and Melissa. >> Mhm.
63:16 >> You know, the fact that this character knew Amy and Melissa and Anna was asked the question, you knew Amy, right? So, if Anna wants to do her due diligence, she should continue to ask Juliette Lewis more questions, which means we get those two actresses in more scenes, which is exciting to me personally. >> As it should be for all of us. Also, I'm wondering like what color string, if we wanted to, you know, just vary things up a little bit.
63:40 >> vetoed more colored string because we can't even read Anna's name at this point, honestly. >> and she's going to have more strings and more connections, but I'm just wondering what kind of visual marker could correctly signify for Lexi to Zach to Tom, I have watched you make out with my dad on our home couch. Like >> Right, right, right. >> What suggests that to you? >> That's like a neon pink situation, I think. >> Then we might have we might have two strings, at least two.
64:05 That seems important to me. >> person there are two strings and one of them's neon pink. all right, so again, we did get some suggestions from folks. We do still want to add like the nail gun and there's like a few other things that we want to put up here. but yeah, prestigetv@spotify.com, think of a baby carrot at gmail.com. >> concerned that incest might need to be like right in the middle of the board. It's going to connect to so many things very quickly.
64:28 >> make it a bigger card? >> It might we might need to replace Cape Fear with Justin Theroux. >> We have added cuck to Tom's card. >> I mean >> So, you know, you live by the cuck, you die by the cuck. >> If the chair fits, you know. >> Do you want to add step cuck to that? >> >> Or cuck shadowing somewhere? >> is a work in progress. >> Sure. >> It's a living document.
64:46 >> Cape Fear colon cuck shadowing. All right, we'll see you soon. Bye. >>