How To Guide Your Child To Love Honesty

0:00 [Music] the connected families podcast is made possible by listeners like us my name is Bonnie Williams my husband Chris and I and our four children Tyler Kylie and Christiana live in Dade City Florida we love to connect with each other by having a family game night or just sitting around after dinner and talking about our day I hope you enjoyed today's program and thanks for listening hey everybody this is Stacy belward the host of the connected families podcast

0:30 Welcome to our community we are people committed to pursuing God's grace and truth for ourselves and then daily working to pass that Grace and Truth on to our children our purpose for this podcast is to be sure you know that you are not alone in your parenting struggles and bring you excellent tools tools from the Bible from science and from the experience of others in our community that can guide you I'm so glad that you're here today well friends you

0:57 asked us to do a podcast on today's issue and we listen this episode is all about lying our Facebook alumni group has well over thousands of people who have gone through our discipline that connects with your child's heart online course and they get support from that group you guys have asked us to talk about lying and to dedicate a podcast to that topic especially as informed by the connected families framework so hey here

1:27 we go to do that conversation I have invited Jim Jackson hey Jim welcome to the microphone thank you Stacy it's great to be here I'm not gonna lie I'm so glad you're here too and Chad Hy hi Chad welcome wow thank you yeah thanks for not lying Jim I noticed that you told the truth it's true I feel good about that yeah you're welcome you see what you got yourself into today Chad and I haven't been together on a podcast for quite a

1:54 while so just I know it and that's what I was just excited about today both of you been quite a while as we have been covering sensitive and intense issues and so we're coming back to some some other topics so Jim and Chad here we are we're on the topic of lying how do you want to get started well I decided not to lie in order to get attention you know Lynn and Lydia have been getting

2:20 all this attention and and I was tempted to make up a big story in order to get somebody to pay attention to me but I decided not to do that I've grown up a little bit since I was a child good Choice yes you can get your attention by asking for it yeah that's good I mean I got excited when I saw this is what we were going to talk about today because I've been working in real time and I

2:40 kind of thought it would be fun to really start with a story of the framework in action relative to lying in real time I work pretty informally with a lot of different families and I'm working with one family in particular and the mom was just exasperated by her child's lying seven-year-old son and uh it's a family that I know and you know know have interaction with from time to time and the seven-year-old knows me mom caught him in a lie one day about

3:05 breaking something and I just thought you know this is a great opportunity like okay I can see mom's anxious and he's but I don't want to you know I don't want to upset the apple cart here a little bit and I just looked at Mom and I said could I uh just ask some questions and she's like please so so I I got down sat on a chair hey buddy come over here come over here I really want

3:25 to trust you you want to be trusted don't you yep you think your mom wants to trust you yep yep yep and do you want to trust your mom yep yep you know one of the great ways to to build trust is to tell truth did you know that no no I'm not sure how much you trust me so I'm wondering if we could play a little game would you play game with me he's and he's all weirded out by this like

3:44 he's looking at me and he's looking at her and it's like am I gon to get in trouble here or what's happening and I'm just you know I'm just trying to have fun with this and it doesn't seem like the end of the world sort of a thing to me I'm light I'm having fun I see an opportunity so anyway I just I said let's play a game I I love playing in rock paper scissors with kids and I'm

4:02 going to tell you something right now every single time I play Rock Paper Scissors I do scissors do you believe me and he looked at me and he was like I'm not sure I said let's play so we do rock paper scissors and I do scissors and he does a rock and I'm like see let's do it again rock paper scissors I do a scissors he does paper I was like no no I always do scissors and and I did this with him

4:28 three four times till he gets so now do you trust that when we play Rock Paper Scissors that I'm always going to do scissors and he's like yeah I said then does that make you feel safer with me or or not so safe and he's like no it's good I like I like that okay so that's the way it is with telling truth so that thing that you said about it's okay the things break stuff happens can you tell

4:50 us what happened it didn't just fall did it no he shakes his head no you know just very subdued and I think that's true isn't it and I was like I believe that true I believe it didn't just fall you just told me the truth give me some Knuckles you just built some trust and then did it fall by itself or maybe did you help it a little bit he nods his head yeah I helped a little bit what so

5:11 what happened I bumped into it and he's almost on the edge of Tears like because he's he's he's so ashamed and feels so bad but now he's feeling bad about what he did rather than about you know the lie and the deception and all the energy back and forth between Mom and parent I said yeah it's hard some times but it's going to be okay we're we'll clean it up together and I'm just so glad you told

5:34 me the truth and we built some trust and I gave him some more Knuckles you I trust you more now than I did before do you know that he just kind of looked at me and beamed a little bit and was like that's good and I was like you know what look at your mom and and tell her what happened and and and then build some trust there too you guys can do that and I didn't watch it or monitor or anything

5:53 I just like you do that on your own time and she reported later yeah he told me and and it seemed to be better and but you know so now she's learning he's learning and all at once you know we're building trust among all of us I tell that story at the outset here because that's what we're aiming at here is to build a high value in telling the truth and in building trust and so often I

6:16 think the energy that parents put into lying and and this was true when I was a child I lied a lot and I got called a liar all the time and it just sort of fueled my energy to get better at lying I didn't want to get caught I really love story Jim because it really does show how we can guide our children to love honesty that the honesty actually brought connection between you and the boy and then hopefully later between him

6:44 and his mom but I wonder Chad what did you hear from the story yeah well there's the entering into a place where not needing to get him to tell the truth right away you know I think that's a common practice for parents is that that we hear the LIE we know the lie I mean I can't tell you how many times I've heard parents say I saw them do it and they told me a lie right in front of my face

7:09 and and now the goal is to get them to tell the truth right now by kind of this bigness this lack of curiosity it's just let's tell the truth and so as Jim's talking I'm thinking huh wow there's a relationship going on here there's an agreement as soon as Jim starts talking you want to be trusted a little bit more don't you yeah okay and some parents would say well my kids don't care they'll say no right okay well we can

7:35 work with that as well but in this example it's like Jim's getting on the same page with him we're Partners here we both want the same thing for you to be trusted and and uh for you to uh to earn some trust as well so I think those are some things that just jump out just just from the beginning of it then the teaching and the opportunity for play and fun so kind of interwoven in there I

7:56 love that in your monologue of the story JY really that was almost like a roleplay that you did for us so thanks for that yeah I want to add one quick thing to it too because see this little fella every once in a while since then and you know like comes to the house puts the shoes in the entryway I see it happen sometimes it's been you know a little bit messy that way and I'll say

8:17 say did you put your shoes where they belong this time and and I know he did like I I know he did and so I look over there and he says yes and then I was like when I look over there what am I going to see and he's going to see you know he starts to be like I know what you're going to see it's going to be good and I go over there and I look and

8:32 I was like you told me the truth again didn't you like fist bump some more because man pretty soon I'm gonna trust you so much I'm gonna let you drive my car I was like and he knows that's a joke and whatever but yeah you know it's just about reinforcing and pouring energy into the truth telling which you know our kids tell most of our children tell the truth far more often than they tell lies they get very little

8:58 affirmation or energy about that they just get lots of big energy when they don't tell the truth and what I love about what you just said was that really you're growing his identity of being a truth teller and saying hey you are a child a person who tells the truth I can remember doing that even with my daughter who she would tell the truth even if it was not to her benefit and you know it would even get

9:23 her into trouble sometimes and I just remember like the trouble set it aside what I just heard is you told the truth and I worked to use that phrase to build her identity so I liked that Chad you said something that kind of clicked with me too and that's that you know my child might have a different reason for telling a lie or might respond differently when they lie and I know when you coach parents you've probably

9:47 run into every reason that you can imagine for why kids lie like they don't just lie because they they want to cover up something necessarily bad that they've done they lie for a bunch of different reasons don't they yeah I think they I think kids will alive to keep the peace sometimes there's there is just an an opportunity to I I know that if I tell the truth here things are going to go off the rails and so it's

10:10 just a lot easier to to not make waves and and keep the peace I think older kids in particular will often times lie to protect their friends where teens in particular if they tell the truth then they know that the friends parents might get a call and it's like okay well let's just try to stop this right right here right now I think there are times too where there's anxiety that might come into play attention seeking is kind of

10:35 how you let off the uh the podcast gym it's like go I'm gonna lie to get some attention here because I always get big energy and that's one of the things that's I think true here is that when of all the things that parents encounter in parenting a child lying goes right to the top of the list of this is not okay and we have to stop it right now because we'll have a serial liar on our hands

11:00 and and uh just really start to get into controlling situations so I think even lying can be a form of connection I'm gonna lie to you because I'm GNA get big strong connection with you and there's also some power in that control as well so Jim could you just speak to that element for parents because they're just lied to and wow the heart rate starts beating and they start losing their breath and you know emotions are rising

11:26 fast so you know from our framework the foundational level of what's going on in me that's really quick on this topic of lying yeah the question what's going on in me and getting a hold of that I think when kids lie because what Chad described is I recognize it from my own parenting you know years ago it's like you know and and particularly for Lynn and I the bar was even raised because you know we're we're parent Educators

11:50 right and so now my child lied you know to Sunday school superintendent about you know whatever happened out there in the hallway with the damage so I I mean I certain certainly learned to recognize early on that when I engaged from that vantage point or from that frame of just not really understanding or naming or saying out loud what I was feeling and and taking that captive to Christ's obedience and is the fruit of the spirit

12:13 active in me right now or is this is this anger and Malice and and you know whatever the words might be is that maybe a piece of My Flesh and more often than not I had to admit my initial response was a fleshly response it was it was this this reflects poorly on me or this child doesn't respect me or this child isn't listening to me it is true my child isn't listening and it is true

12:36 that they're lying is a fashion of disrespect and it is true it's a it's even evidence of sin in their lives those are true and important things to not let go of but I got to get the me part out of the equation and so taking a step back there's very few lies that we hear that we have to engage with immediately and so if I hear a lie with both my own children and with other

12:57 people's children you know I've learned to practice huh is that right yes that P slow down I'm gonna have to think about that for a minute seems different to Me Maybe I'm missing something am I missing something or maybe do you want to give it another run are you role playing with me now do you want to give it another run or how do you want to talk about this what do you mean I mean I I said I

13:25 didn't do it well yeah it looks real different than that to me so I it's a little hard to navigate this right now truth is I don't have proof so the truth also is is that that there's something evasive there's something off here and maybe I just got to work a little harder at trusting so what do you think you can do here to earn some more trust awkward silence right like I don't know having asked the question is he thinking about

13:49 the past and what happened in the past a part of me in my brain is like did I really get it wrong maybe unearthing what actually happened in the past isn't that important right now what's important is I can't prove it so I don't want to dwell on that and give it power I want to dwell on let's earn more trust in the future I want to be future oriented here I don't have the microscope I can't for sure prove it

14:10 I've got pretty good evidence and I'm pretty sure I'm right because there's a history here but if I work really hard to try to get him to say something that I can't prove and I erode our relationship then it then it erodes trust it erodes connection and I want to build connection and build trust and that's something I can do in the future but I can't necessarily pull out and prove exactly what happened in the past

14:30 so let's let's be future oriented here I really like that Jim because what you're talking about is what is the goal you know as a parent and now dealing with that situation what is the goal and so many times I think it was Chad who mentioned it our goal is to immediately get our child to say the truth say the truth right now but in the discipline that connects with your child's heart the book that you wrote Jim with your

14:54 wife Lynn the appendix is amazing and there's a whole section on lying and actually lying it also talks about whining and Tantrums and meltdowns and disrespect and sibling conflict so hey everybody go grab a copy of the book we'll have links in our show notes for that but the appendix talks about how as parents and when we're dealing with lying there's a different goal can we speak to the different goal maybe Chad would you mind starting yeah I I think

15:25 um you know even in that little quick role play I'm trying to figure out what's going on here right like who is this parent that just showed up like this and because I'm pretty disarmed at this point so as a child yeah as in even in the silence I'm kind of like okay now what so even just that engagement is so so different so so I think the the uh the goal here really is to try to help develop some wisdom over

15:53 the Long Haul like this is one instance in time so if if I make this a really big deal I'm likely going to get more of it here right so but what's the wisdom what do I want to grow here over time having the Long View in mind I think connection is a goal right we want to stay connected to our kids Jim did not get accusatory with me he stayed a little curious and well might might have

16:19 seen it a little differently than that but so there was still a connective piece there and then I think that that validation and uh the focus on

16:51 truthtellah kid is a liar and I'll say really what what does that mean exactly well they lie about every they lie about everything did you ask them what they wanted for breakfast today well yeah what did they say well they said they wanted cereal was that the truth yeah but that's not what I'm talking about I was like well but was wait a minute yes it was was it the truth so yes it was the truth so what

17:14 you're telling me is is that your child does not lie about every single thing sounds like your child lies some somewhat often or frequently or when it's time to go or when the pressure is on or there there is a period of time in their lives when they do struggle to tell the truth is that more accurate well yeah so what percentage of the time do you of all the words that you hear them say is truth and what percentage is

17:36 not truth and you know inevitably I mean and they fight me on this question like like parents don't want to they don't want to admit my child tells the truth most of the time because then somehow they're culpable for what for telling me something that wasn't true Oh you mean parents lie sometimes too oh no don't get too close jimy easy I mean that's the thing the mindset of absolutes in this and and all the time and extremes

18:05 you know never and and the identity the word the identity of the liar I mean Satan is liar Satan's schemes are to kill and steal and destroy and if Satan says something that's true then it's because it's it's reinforcing some sort of lie Satan would want us to believe he's the only pure liar there is the rest of us are all you know we're mired in sin and we've got we've got truth telling issues and we've got lying

18:30 issues I as a parent and my kids have learned a saying to Define me which is Dad you're you're never in doubt but you're frequently wrong I like that and I'll say things as if they're absolutely true because I believe they are maybe or because I'm trying to make a point and I have what some would call the gift of hyperbole which is also a way of saying Jim stretches the truth in order to make a

18:53 point sometimes so the the ability even in that role play to admit you know what maybe I'm Maybe I'm Wrong about this so let's not worry about what the past is let's worry about what the future is let's build some wisdom over the Long Haul let's focus on truth-telling and let's stay connected here you mentioned Satan he's the father of Lies Jesus is truth right John 146 I am the way the truth and the life and there's a lot of

19:20 biblical perspective around truth that is important it is just true Jesus and his very nature is true truth true intimacy with people and God depends on honesty that's why we're having this podcast that's why parents care about it that's why honesty is important habitual lying does lead to the hardness of heart and broken relationships but you know also in the appendex of the book there was such a powerful sentence that I would just love

19:51 us to talk about for a little bit and I'm going to read it it says the Paradox of teaching kids to tell the truth is to demonstrate Grace when they lie while also advocating strongly for the benefits of Truth telling that's POS who would like to comment on that yeah I think I mean I have been commenting on that at some level and I really do think it is a paradox we feel like the way to

20:16 get to truth is to confront the lies and to give big energy and then Force our kids to say what's true and then create a dynamic where the Badness that they feel um or you know is it the remorse I don't know if it's remorse but where they feel bad like they feel bad they get confronted it gets I remember as a youngster being confronted about my lying and I felt really really bad I'm not sure even to this day how much of

20:42 that Badness was about lying how much about that was shame how much about that was the the eroded relationship how much of that was about embarrassment that I got caught I don't know because in in many instances there wasn't Grace it was just this forceful thing and and it reinforced my identity as as a liar but as can I comment on that Jim you know when I think about lying as I was raising my kids you know and I think

21:08 about what were my objectives when it happened how I how was I going to interact with my kids I remember really clearly thinking that when a lie was told it meant that there was a value system going on underneath maybe the surface that was producing the need to lie about this thing and so it always made me get really curious like what's going on inside my child that it's more important to lie about this thing than

21:41 to tell the truth and is it shame is it that it's a triggered Topic in my house and I often fly off the handle because you know I get upset when you leave your bike out and I did last time so now you feel like you have to lie or you're going to get the same response or I'm not taking responsibility for the lie but I'm realizing I have a part to play in that or or Chad mentioned earlier

22:05 about friends and covering up her friends I just wanted to add that that was one of my filters that then I wanted to dig deeper in a curious and compassionate way to understand more of what was going on in my child I think that's really really important I mean Jim talked about what's going on inside of me and now Stacey you bring out like what's going on with my child and again it doesn't excuse use misbehavior so I

22:29 don't want people to hear that like oh that's okay then but there's sometimes underlying things that are going on and if we don't pay attention to what that looks like or what's going on then then we we miss some things here and and I think the next part of the framework the coaching part that your called and capable message starts bringing us into then skill building like how do we teach the skill of Truth telling and sometimes

22:54 talking about it Deuteronomy 6 talks about this talking about you know God's commands while we walk and sit and go to bed and just as we go about daily life and so not in the moment all the time of well you lied and now this is the big thing and here's the consequence for that but but talking about truth as we're walking along as we're watching a show what do we see in that show about the person who lied versus the person

23:20 who who told the truth and and how does that play out and what was going on there right lots of examples and places that we can we can bring truth and highlight truth as we walk along the road with our kids because we want our children to love truth and and we want then to train them and I think another way is modeling actually in the book again everybody you have to go and grab a copy of the book discipline that

23:46 connects but on page 184 it says the primary reason kids learn to lie is that their parents are modeling lying and I would love to just end our podcast today with the story that I know that you have Chad about a parent who taught their children about the truth and modeling truthtellah yeah I was talking with a a mom and she well she actually sent me an email initially saying we have an elderly cat that died by my running the

24:19 cat over you know if I tell my kids they're going to be mortified by it and you know I'm just thinking I'll just tell him that that it just died because it was old um and what do you think about that was really the question and uh it's like oh let's think through the framework here for a minute like what's going on with you what's going on with it like she's afraid right of what her kids are gonna experience and maybe even

24:42 their anger at her and what's going on with your kids and what do you want them to learn in this situation and uh so we walk through a little bit of a script on how she could talk to her kids about what actually happened and tell them the truth and treat them as if they're capable they were probably 10 years old treat them as if they're capable of uh of dealing with us and handling this uh and uh and then she

25:06 could take responsibility as well that's the framework and action uh and so she did and she reported back and there's actually we have a blog post called I killed the cat you can search for it and link to it but the response from her kids was was one of compassion for her uh and really they learn to tell the truth even when it's really really hard and you feel really bad like she felt really badly about running over the cat

25:35 and uh but what what a great modeling opportunity for Mom to be honest in a hard situation and then to receive that Grace almost from her kids there's no there's no guarantee that that's how it was going to go we prepped for a a lot of ways that that could go but just her being honest was such a a I think a good model and good gift to her kids she taught her kids truthfulness even in the face of maybe

26:03 some sad feelings and some hard emotions that would come from it that's really good modeling Jim do you have any final words you know I think at the end of my day when I think about this or really any of the topics that we that we teach I I I think this idea of taking captive to Christ's obedience our thoughts our actions our confessions this idea that that kids learn lying from their parents what's true is they probably don't see us hell

26:32 blatant lies but we all of us you know say things out of convenience to get on with life little things little moments in our minds it's no big deal to to you know whatever the example might be to to pretend we're not home when somebody knocks on the door because we don't want to be bothered right now or or to tell the person or to answer the door and and and you know say something that's not

26:57 quite true just in order to get this sales personality I'm busy on that night yep when our kids see that you know they don't know they they don't they don't interpret this the grand scope of our lives and the truth is that's a lie if I do that and for me to say so is probably a helpful way to help my kids navigate through this this struggle it's a lifelong struggle really that we all have for truth-telling and we want our

27:20 kids to be absolutely correct in how they navigate this but we want to be able to get away with our little sophisticated more hidden and hard to pin down ways of not saying what's absolutely true all the time the bottomline truth is that all of us have sin and if we say we don't we're liars and and the truth is not in us and that's you know james8 is is there's our teaching right there and so to wrestle

27:46 with our own struggle with this and to then be an open book about that and invite our kids to pray for us even as it relates to these things and and to learn to confess to our family at dinner time whatever you know what I said a thing that wasn't true today and it's I've been feeling bad I've had that little icky feeling in my stomach that's bothered me about it and I kind of ignore it most of the time but I just

28:08 want you all to know that I you know I I said a thing at the grocery store to the clerk that wasn't quite true so that I could get you know get out of there faster and I just I just want you kids to pray for me and and if if you're wondering sometimes if what I'm saying is true I really do invite you to to ask me about it and help me be more the God's child that I want to be so we all

28:33 struggle with what this looks like in our own lives as parents as adults we're working through this and the invitation to even invite our kids into our own Journey with truthfulness and model humility in the midst of that today was such a great conversation Jim and Chad it's fun to have you on the podcast again you're going to show up a couple of times in the next few episodes we've got a few schedules fantastic looking forward to it thanks Stacy we've been

29:01 silenced too long Chad we're coming back from work exactly coming back can't keep us down that's awesome all right well until next time thanks for tuning in today friends you know we mentioned the book discipline that connects with your child's heart in this episode we mentioned it quite a bit today Jim and Lynn Jackson wrote it there's a link in our show notes if you would like to get the hard copy or even an audio version

29:26 for yourself well we are listener supported organization over 50,000 parents like you listen to this podcast every month individual donations make the work to equip and encourage families possible for more information about connected families follow us on Instagram or Facebook or go to Connected families.org I will see you next [Music] time