How to Use Technology to Remain Competitive | Mirco Patroncini

0:00 Every time you feel uncomfortable in something means that you're growing. So you have to try to put yourself in an uncomfortable position and try to do it the maximum in order to be comfortable. Okay, so this means that you're growing, you're learning something that before you weren't able to do. Or you are also creating networks with people that before you weren't able to reach.

0:21 Mirko Patronsini is the Chief technology officer of lastminute.com a publicly traded company in the travel tech industry with over 1,400 employees.

0:31 As a CTO, I know that I reach my goal when I go into the office and I'm able to do nothing, meaning that everything is working smooth. Security for sure is now one of the main topic. So more you are trying to get more secure and more the hackers, or let's say the frauders, want to find a way to bridge your systems. So the ones that are able to manage the AI in the right way will be the ones with the future in the right.

0:57 Marco has held leadership positions in several corporates, like the $1.2 billion Yux Net, a Porter. And now as CTO of Last Minute, he drives the tech strategy that fuels innovation, reinforcing Last Minute's position as a global reference in travel technology.

1:12 I would have embraced the unknown earlier, let's say in this way, because when every time you're changing, you are moving from something you know, your comfort zone, to something that you don't know. When I was the beginning younger, I tried, but was a bit more scared to do a big jump. I want to have done it earlier because I see.

1:31 Hi Mirko, very glad to have you here. How are you?

1:34 I'm fine, Diego. I'm really happy to be here with you.

1:37 Perfect. So, Mirko, it's been a pleasure having you here. It's also been great to speak with you recently in Barcelona when you were here. So very glad to have you here and discuss, have a deep discussion about you, your background and your role as a cto. As always, I like to start with a question about you in terms of motivation as well and what and the drive that you have as well as a leader. So if you can share with us directly what drives you as a leader and keeps you motivated.

2:13 Thanks for the question. Let me say this question is quite easy for me to answer. What is driving me is just one thing. Things is people. We focus in Barcelona about people now and because I think that tools, technology are just nothing without the right people, the right team, the right mindset around the technology I never seen in my 20 years, more than 20 years careers. That technology itself is able to bring an impact in the world.

2:43 No, you need the right people. Why I love it. I love managing leading people because they are not predictable. They are not like systems that you are able to determine something, but with people you are not. So this is the magic I see in my role. I'm guided also by some strong values. Like I mainly strong empathic person. So is one of my most important value. I also follow respect for the people, transparency, creativity, those are.

3:13 And also pragmatism. I'm a grounded person. So I want really to see things happen, not just speaking about things. So those are my anchor because I want to build an environment where the people can really grow, move fast, be real. So we want to do things that matters. This is what is driving and motivating me on day by Day.

3:36 And thanks for sharing, Mirko. And I'm also interested when it comes to your background as well. I know that you have a very diverse background. I know you work as a plumber, you built your company, you work also door to door. You were fixing computer at the beginning. So you have many diverse experiences. If you can briefly go through them like you know, but mainly focusing on why like and how these experiences shaped you as a leader would be great.

4:05 Let me start saying that my path was not linear, as you are saying, but not because I'm crazy. Let's say I grew up with my mom. We were alone and we were not let's say rich. And I had to work and to participate to the financial economy in the. In our house. So the point is I had to work while I was studying. So I've got a computer science background. Just to say that I'm not starting from being a plumber to be this to be all this job I've done for needs brings me some experience different one.

4:43 So when I was a plumber. I understand then when you're fixing a pipe that is not working, there's no shortcuts. No, you have to do that. When pragmatism do stuff now, not tomorrow, not later, not speaks about which is the best pipe. No, sometimes there are philosophical discussion when we are speaking about technology, which is the best style, which is the best way to do in that occasion, you have to fix it. That's all. So this is my trait.

5:11 I would say many different experiences brings me where I am. I'm. I'm quite a strong, responsible person. I would say I feel the company like it's mine. And this is also due to my experiences when you are knocking to the door. Because if I'm not wrong, they go, so you said that you did the door to door sales. You know, you have also to that those are the first time you are experiencing the failure because the rejection of the people say, no, I don't want it.

5:40 And you are explaining and trying to sell something and you're so there saying, I learned the rejection action, the failures. And you cannot say, oh, I failed and tomorrow I will not knock to any other doors. No, tomorrow I have to knock to more doors than today. So I try to take all these kind of experiences and use them in my role, my current role. I want to have the same mindset. I'm still keeping the same style.

6:08 As I said at the beginning, I'm a grounded person. I want to stay practical, move fast, understand when we fail on something and be able to change fast. So I love changing. This is one of my strongest part. I love the change. Usually people are scared about changes. I guess changes is the life. So you feel alive when you are changing more. But most on top of everything, as I said at the beginning, I want always, always stay close to the people.

6:35 Just to tell you in the office, I don't have my office, so I'm the open space together with the people. I'm a digital, let's say you know, the office. Because I'm not seated in the same place every day. So I'm changing around and working, working around the company and sitting down to many different people. This is I guess coming from my past experiences.

6:58 Amazing. Yes, I can really empathize with you because I had as well so many diverse experiences and even if they are so varied, they always bring something on what you do and yourself. And when we were speaking, you were also saying that when you became cto it also felt like a jump in a way to become a cto. Like something that you would expect, like a jump was quite big from where you were before. Can you walk us through this perspective of this jump and step into this new role?

7:29 Absolutely. I also said the same in my last tech alliance I had in the company. I thought at the beginning it was easier this job because I was managing people. I'm managing people more than 20 years, as I said at the beginning. But the big jump, the big leap I had with the CTO role is not in terms of technology, because technology, I've got a technology background. I'm more a carouse person. So I'm looking everything online, doing a lot of Study around innovation, technology.

7:59 The main part is the mindset that has to change because as I said, I'm a practical person. So I was used to do stuff in first person many times. And you are moving from doing stuff yourself to enable others to do better than you. So it's a switch that you have to to do when you are a cto, because you have to lead the vision, the strategy, work with the business and you have to enable the others to understand what they have to do with clarity.

8:27 You know, this is the main change, I would say you have to think long term, not short term. It's also complex working with the. You have to make decision. We always did decisions, but sometimes you have to do decision fast without all the data you need to make that decision. Let me say in a sentence that I was thinking in those days that is left to being the smartest in the room, but is try to build the right room.

8:56 No, I don't want to be felt as the both of them. I want to feel like a colleague. So this is my point. We have to create something together. And this is the complex part in the new role.

9:11 Can you give us an example, for example, of one of these difficult decisions that you had to take as a cto?

9:17 Well, let me say, speaking about decision, as I said, we are always making decision in our life, no? So making decision itself is simple. The problem, as I said, is when you have to make the decision faster without the data. That's why usually I rely a lot on my teams. So teams is helping me to make the fast decision because I always think that it's better wrong decision now than the perfect one in three months, four months.

9:44 We are in a dynamic fast place where we don't have time in order to stay there and wasting many months in order to make a decision. So making decision is the easiest part. Let's say the complex part is making the right one with the information you have got. And sometimes you don't have the right information or you don't have the time to collect the information you need in order to make the fast decision. An example of tough decision is always when you have to understand it's time to stop something that the people is working on.

10:14 This is mostly the complex one because recently we closed, for example, a tech project we were working on for eight months. We saw that the expected result were not coming. And you have to go to the people, say, guys, it's time to close it. It's not easy to go to someone say, okay, you worked on something for Eight months. And now we want to close that project because we know they put all their energy on that part.

10:38 But part of the leadership is also understanding when it's time to move the focus from something that doesn't matter to something that matters more. No, this is part of the leadership. The point is explain with clarity to the people why and try to keep the motivation really high. Because that's the point. The motivation is quite fragile. So you need always to explain why specifically why you are doing something. Not just I decided to do this and that's all.

11:08 So to keep people motivated, what approach do you use? You explain the why, what else?

11:14 Like usually all this kind of decision, as I said, I'm taking together. So is data driven? Most of the decision is not because I got a feeling of a project that is not working. So you usually work on business cases, reviewing the business cases after the pilot or the mvp. We are doing and we are trying to see if the numbers we thought there were the forecasted one right or not. And usually the decision should be made by.

11:40 By the by data. So the point is data are the driver and most of the time people understand quite better numbers than just the decision made with feelings. No.

11:53 And then if you can walk us through, you know, your, your day to day, if you pick a. An example of your. Of your day on how it looks like of course there's the technical part, but a lot of people management walk us through this.

12:06 Yes, an example and let me say this is typical question also people said but what is CTO is doing every day? Because you know, developers is developing cto. What is doing? No, my, my. My role is going far beyond the, the technology right now. So I have to set the direction of technology making the cheese. As we said, what we have to invest on working closer to the business, the product, try to enable the business with the technology.

12:32 Sometimes business doesn't know what the technology can do for them. And you should be the one that predict what they could need. And you have to go there and say, oh, with this technology you can do this. And maybe you don't know that I'm here to enable you. This is one part of the job, setting the context, sharing the context and also the vision to the teams in order to make. To give them the opportunity to make the right decision, the smart decision you need.

12:59 Because I don't want that every decision goes through the cto. No, you need the teams quite autonomous and able to make the right decision, make the right decision when it's needed. Another big part Is around the culture growing others. As I said, you need to enable others to do stuff to make decision. So I'm growing leaders, I'm shaping teams or organization partners and also we are trying to create the space for innovation. Innovation in last minute is not, let's say just allowed is something that I'm expecting every day.

13:32 Something I said always to my team is we are not here to maintain what we have got. We are here to improve what we have. So the point is innovation is something I really believe we have to do on daily basis that the most important part. So my job, let's say is also to keep the motivation as I said at the beginning. So try to remove the blockers, try to understand the people solving conflicts. So there are every day there are many, many, many things.

14:05 I remember, Sorry. I remember one of my former bosses in one of the company worked on Youth Net Report was saying as a CTO I know that I reach my goal when I go into the office and I'm able to do nothing. Meaning that everything is working smooth.

14:22 That's the ideal scenario.

14:24 The ideal scenario, yes, of course means

14:26 that you have done a good job before to prepare and get there Looking at just touching that point that you were talking about innovation. So you said that it's very important for you tell us maybe how you foster that culture of innovation and also how you balance that the necessity to really look for groundbreaking ideas but at the same time the need for reliability within the system that need to manage millions of users.

14:50 Good question, good question. As I say, innovation and reliability are not your positive stuff. So you have to run both. There are different rules. So the rules for the reliability, the rules for the innovation. So you have to give the teams the opportunity to test try innovating in safe environments. That's the first important point. But also failing fast. So you need to test and validate an idea and you should be able to say okay, this idea is working.

15:18 Okay, let's go in production with it or no, this idea is not working your trash it but you this kind of cycle should be quite fast. Let's say let's minute we are building this culture a lot just to give you some numbers because I guess numbers is always something interesting. We're doing a lot of change every month we are doing 1200 change a month in our production systems. Those are just the production changes. Just to say how many changes we are doing and how we are fostering this kind of innovation inside the the technology created what we are calling Friday interesting project.

15:56 Let's Say it's not a project, it's a way of working. Every Friday morning, four hours every Friday. Everyone in the company can work on innovation, training, deep working on what the team decide to work on in order to create this kind of culture. We have got many things we are using now in production that has been developed during the Friday from ideas coming from the people. So it's a big investment. If you are thinking we are more or less 1700 people in the company.

16:28 So if you are thinking four hours for each of them. Every Friday is really huge investment. But it was every penny that we are spending on it because we see people really engaged, commit to do something. So we are really strong focus on innovation and we are able to keep the reliability. We are doing lots of habit testing a small portion of customer. We are testing on staging or in let's say protected environment. So if you are.

16:55 Even if you are failing, we are trying to protect our core business to be impacted. And our customer can rely on this reliability.

17:03 And everybody from the company like customer service, sales, anybody can work on it and how he actually works the process. So it's a brainstorming and then it's different.

17:16 Directors of the area can manage in their own area some specific activities. It could be hackathons, it could be specific topic that we want to work on. Or sometimes people need also to do trainings by their own. So individual trainings. So it's not every. It's not every Friday the same. Now, as you can imagine, we are working a lot on AI on Friday because many teams are quite happy to work on AI. So there are many people experimenting and testing.

17:45 So each Friday is different and is managed by directors and each team itself. For sure we are driving the needs of the company because as you know, bit of aeroi is always welcomed when we are giving this kind of opportunity. But training the people, growing them is important and I guess that the Friday is a good initiative.

18:07 That's a really great project. And can you give an example maybe of some idea coming from different departments that have been implemented successfully?

18:16 There are many ideas, let's say I cannot go so much in details in order to. But there are agentic AI stuff. We did also some workflow manager that we were not having before. We had also observability layers. So like how to forecast some disruption in production made by the teams during Friday. We have got automation. Many projects are around automation, how to remove repetitive tasks.

18:50 So people using or AI or machine learning or even also standard automation to bring in production something that can Help them along the path. So there are many ideas, some of them are just mvp, some, some others are already causing production. So I. I can't go so much in details in order to do not.

19:12 And maybe talking about the role of cto of course involved as well having let's say fears around maybe technical fears be a massive system outage or you know, a security breach.

19:25 Yes.

19:26 But also non technical fears. Maybe a market shift or other problems as well. What would you say are the. The top fears? Let's say that you have a CTO when it comes to technical and non technical ones.

19:39 But let's say technically things we have got a great team. Security for sure is now one of the main topic. So more you are trying to get more secure and more the hackers or let's say the fraud as want to find a way to breach your systems. So security and the fraud is the most let's say concern we have got in terms of technology. I would say systems are quite reliable. We are completely on cloud now, many different availability zones.

20:09 So it's complex for us to have a really huge outage in terms of systems. We have got everything automated with auto scaling. So from a system point of view I can tell you we are quite in a good shape in terms of security. We are working really hard in order to protect even more every day our customer data and protect our systems. As you know, this is a day to day job you have to do because the more you are smarter and more they are becoming smarter in order to find your data.

20:42 It's like with you're changing your door, you know, to not have the thief. But they are finding a way to open the new door. No. So you have always to be pay a lot of attention on security, security, GDPR and compliance all the data of your customers. So this is where we are really investing a lot in terms of energy right now. In terms of not technical things. The culture is the most important one we have seen after the pandemic a change also in the way of working in terms of remote working, hybrid environment.

21:14 When you are far from the people, you are losing a bit the connection you're not feeling more to belonging to some company. So there were a period where people are changing just to matter, to change the company? No, because working remotely with one company was the same that working remotely for another one. They never seen their colleagues during the pandemic. Okay. We have to work a lot on the cultural part because as I said at the beginning, you need people.

21:41 We still need leaders that are able to manage and work with people. So if we are not able to create a good culture, for sure we can have the best system, as I said before. But we are not able to reach the to make the impact we want to make. So we have to work hard. And the culture is not something you can do one day and the other, not every day. You have to work on it.

22:04 And you are speaking about automation here. So if you look at the automating through AI through other systems, yes, of course you are doing a lot of this and can be increased significantly. But what do you think are like the one activity or the main activities that cannot be automated?

22:24 Okay, let me say when we're speaking AI, mostly people are referring to AI with the generative AI reality. AI is a bigger word. Let's say even if we are in a world where AI can do everything, at least on paper, in the reality, we have seen that when you are selling travels, in our cases, travel is something that is empathic. No, you need to give the customer the feeling to be safe on their travel. Because you are selling a dream, you are selling.

22:55 You're not just selling, I don't know, a smartphone. No, you are selling something that people usually do once, twice a year. They want to go there, to rest, to have fun. So AI and technology is not enough. You need to have the right people understanding the needs of the customer and understanding what they they want and to be able to support them as fast as possible. So while the upper funnel could be automated, it could be AI driven.

23:26 So engagement shopping, when we are coming on the bottom part of the funnel, like fulfillment part of the customer service also you still need people, you still need empathy, you still need someone that is able to add the customer and is not just a process. People doesn't want to feel just processed, but they should need to feel listened by the company. So this is where we are working a lot, feeding the customer. Not alone, no, but we are there as a person, not with just an AI process that can help them.

24:01 I don't know. I love to have chatbots or agents that have customer. For sure, this is the future. But let me say speaking with people sometimes is needed. No.

24:12 And we're touching here more about trends as well that you see moving forward. What would you say like are the main trend in the industry that you're seeing coming up?

24:23 If you're speaking about technology, generally speaking on trend on travel industries, for sure, personalization is the most important one, is not something new. But right now in the travel this is evolving a Lot. Let me say that people doesn't want to be more any more cluster. I was reading a book where we say that the average is a discontinuity. We cannot use anymore the concept of average on the people.

24:54 Because each person want to have their own offer, their own travel, their own recommendation. They want something that is built around him or her. No. So you can you now you. You is not enough anymore to sell the flight or the hotel or we are strong in dynamic package. Just the dynamic packages, flights plus hotel together for example, is not enough anymore. You have to give the right content, you have to give it the right timing.

25:23 So what the customer needs is not enough. Okay, this is the package go and buy. No, this is your package. This is where personalization come in with also the right pricing for that segment. Another point that we are working a lot is that also this one is not new, but it's still a trend, the mobile first approach. So smartphones are always in your day, every day is in your hands. So it's not anymore just a booking tools.

25:56 You can use the smartphone before, during and after the trip. So this is also how we are thinking about our send UI when we are thinking to new features. Mobile first approach is important still today, if we're speaking about technology, more technology, we have to move from a platform that is just serving APIs to a platform that is able to adapt smart, is able to predict the needs of the customer.

26:26 Is not enough to have just few APIs. No. As we read in past or event driven technology, real time changing AI for sure. So let's say you have to create a more customized experience, something that say, okay, this is for me, it's not for Diego, it's not for another one, it's for me. This is in my opinion the most important trends right now in our market. From generally speaking, it's great.

26:52 And of course among these trends, you were mentioning this for before, the social AI that everybody of course is talking about in this case is impacting your business.

27:05 AI is a bit different. Let's say AI is already reshaping the travel world. I guess you read everywhere every day there is something new around the eye and travels. Let's say AI is impacting on two sides, on customer and also on technology itself internally. While let's say from a customer point of view, you can create more intelligent offers journey, you can give them recommendations, you can drive with natural language processing the shopping part rather than using the standard search widgets.

27:43 So AI is changing a lot. AI is creating a sort of shopping Assistance, let's say in this way, where in future each of us will have his own personal assistant that is able to do things on behalf of us. Rather than browsing a website, you can directly buy something with your voice, why not? So this is mostly the impact of AI in travel. And the raise of the AI agents is really important.

28:17 We are moving from a standard chatbot where we have got intent quite clear, where people can ask just few stuff. If you are trying to ask the most complex things, the old chatbot were not able to manage you and you have to go to the customer service in order to answer something. With the chatbot you are changing completely the experience of the customer. With the chatbot you can ask questions, suggestions, it can help you to book to find support in a proactive way.

28:44 Sometimes is answering also questions maybe you understand under your intent, even if you you still have to ask it. No. So this means for them to be faster doing bookings and moving to a different experience where you don't have to browser a website. You have just to think what you want and write what you want. And everything is magic, let's say in this way. So I guess AI is impacting a lot and really even more in the short future.

29:15 I will say not long future. Because we have seen how fast is the adoption of AI everywhere in the world. So I guess it's important to be not a follower in the AI world, but be early adopters. And this is where we are working on to be early adopters.

29:36 Also on the iPad, if you look at how AI is impacting from a technical perspective, like your teams, the tech profession itself and the technical teams, how is that crucial and how you see in the coming years shaping the tech professionals.

29:53 Okay. On technology the same as travel. So we have seen a big impact coming from the AI. You can imagine. I guess the difference is that it's not just a tool. Is the new programming language that is coming out? No, the AI is change it completely the way you are thinking technology. And this is part of the workflow of every day. So you need to trade the AI, not ignore it the highest part of your job.

30:18 So for example, we are using it for documentation, for testing, bugging, also for writing code. You know, we have got code written by, by the AI because I don't know, something that before took a month, now it took few days with the eyes. So it's not an option, it's not any more optional using the AI for our engineers, for our people, it's mandatory for them like using GitHub for them, no. Or using a new programming language, they have to learn it.

30:51 And this is why we are investing. We are investing to train our people to use AI because you need the right prompt, you need the right person able to understand how to ask the right things to the eye in the right way. So it's not just matter of asking to the eye, it's how you are asking. And it's a huge change for the people. So the ones that are able to manage the AI in the right way will be the ones with the future in their hands.

31:19 If you are the ones that are a detractor, probably in 10 years you will be in a bad position, I would say just to not say something. So you have to be carious, you should be adapting to the new world and things that are coming. So technology is strongly impacted, for sure. But let's say we are trying to upscale our people. So this is the point. We want our people to be able to manage the AI in order to drive them the AI change, not be driven by them, by the AI itself.

31:53 So it's better that humans are usually driving the AI rather than the opponents.

31:58 And have you seen maybe an impact in terms of hiring like technical individuals, given the high productivity gains that you are getting through AI? Maybe like even junior positions, for example.

32:12 Let me say that on this point there are some false myths that we have to speak about. Because yes, for sure, AI is creating a productivity gain, for sure. But there's a but. So AI is not solving everything. So now we are seeing AI everywhere. Every tools should have AI. Every sentence you are speaking on daily basis should have the I word inside it. But let's say AI is not solving everything.

32:45 It's impossible for the AI because there are still a part of the job that is human managed. So as I was saying before, sometimes we are reading also on the Internet some posts and blogs. We save the 40% in code development. That's a part of the story. The other part is that okay, the AI is writing the code, but how many times and how many iterations you need in order to have the right code. Because as I said at the beginning, the security and the reliability still matters a lot.

33:18 We have to protect our customers. So you cannot take the code written by the AI as it is and bring this in production. You need the engineers working, validating the tools, validating the output of the AI, also able to understand the context, write the right prompt in order to have the AI writing the right code. This is still time you need. So you cannot Cut right now, that time, maybe in future things are improving. But right now, as per today, some of the productivity gain is lost in this, in the action, this activity that you have to do on day by day.

33:57 And speaking about junior engineers, since you asked about junior, this is another thing that I want to add. It's a false thinking that you can hire a junior engineer and asking him to solve a complex problem. Because in order to solve a complex problem, you should know the context, the domain, what to ask. So if you've got a junior person, probably he doesn't still know the context of the company or the domain, or how to ask the right thing.

34:27 So the issue you could have is that the result is not what you were expecting. That's why, as I said before, it's better to train the people, to give them the seniority to manage the eye in the right way. Fortunately, this way you are able to reach a good productivity gain. And I'm honest, since we are working on many AI initiatives, we see really that there's the possibility to save time and to have a really real productivity gain, bringing the right value to the customer.

34:58 But you have to do it with the right trainings, the right person, the right mindsets.

35:04 Because my question was more on the junior employees, tech employees, in which they may struggle to enter this role. Because as AI is like automating that simple part. Of course, at this point, probably you would just need senior tech developer to take care of this. I'm talking about the long term. I don't know if it resonates with you or this is a trend that's not in line with what you said.

35:36 I took your question. I would say yes and no. We always need the fresh people with fresh mindsets, with fresh ideas. So you cannot rely only on seniority or senior engineers. But if you are hiring juniors and you are asking a senior to mentoring and giving the contest domain, you can also get already some benefit from the junior for sure. This is suggestion for junior engineers. Don't ask AI to write all your code, because otherwise you are not able to code or to understand what you're doing.

36:09 This is also for the future. And it's got also for my son, no, now he's seven years old, so he's quite young, but maybe when he will be 18. People are still stop thinking, they are just asking everything to the eye. All the text, the image generation or the creativity is made by the eye. And this is scaring me a lot. And this is something I don't want to see on the in last minute. So we don't want to see people that using just the eye.

36:36 If you are junior, you need to learn fail making experience. And for sure the AI is a great companion on this. But you should not ask the AI to do everything on your behalf. Otherwise you will never be senior. No in future.

36:52 Exactly. And especially I see that if you want to control the technology and be able to gain the maximum, usually it's related to the one that have the domain expertise so they can judge if the outcome is actually correct or is not. While if you delegate that thinking part, then you become controlled directly by machine and you wish that the outcome is correct, then the decision is not anymore on your side there.

37:22 Let's remember that AI at the end is a software, no? So each software is based on the input you are giving him. And the output is based on the input. So if you're giving the wrong input, also the output is wrong. We have to add on top of the eye that we have got those hallucination. Even if you're putting the right input, sometimes you don't have the right output. So that's why you're right. We need validate the output and of the AI.

37:47 That's what I said at the beginning. Working well when people and the AI are working together, but driven by the people, not by AI.

37:55 And there's a lot of bold statement as well about AI maybe replacing matter of months like. Like developers or you know, other statements that are coming out every day. Can you maybe tell your perspective in terms of what do you think? Are those myths, false myths about AI?

38:15 Yes, some of them I already talked about before. These about the company that are declaring layoff. For sure there are some role that will disappear in future. No, we. I don't want to be not transparent on this. This is the. The progression. Every new technology, every time there is something things are changing. You just think about the past. So how many people are still buying alarms alarm clock less.

38:46 Why? Because we have got smartphone. Smartphone killed many many different roles in past. No, also they have watches racing right now. There are many people doesn't have any any more watches because they are looking the the time on this marathon. So each technology is bringing with him some changes. As I said, people are scarcity. Oh, we are losing a lot of rules in the future. But I can say there should be other roads now coming up as usual.

39:17 So for sure right now where we are, you can maybe remove some people as most of the articles say. But they are small and easy task to solve because the AI is solving them. When we are speaking about engineering, I don't think that right now we are still able to really substitute them with the AI for the discussion we had before. You need people in order to govern a the AI. If you don't have the people, the risk is that the AI is is not governed at all.

39:48 In my opinion, right now you still need to invest on your people. Rather than seeing the AI as a replacement. I will see the AI as a helping assistance to the to the engineers. For sure, in future there could be changes, but as I said, engineers should learn the AI because if they are not, they will be, let's say should dismissed in future. Because if you don't have that kind of skill in the upcoming years, you will not be any more interested on the market.

40:19 So this is important. But also for managers, the same, not all engineers.

40:24 Miyako, thanks a lot for sharing these points and this conversation. Just few final questions and would like your advice when it comes to CTOs when running their function. If you can share your piece of advice for them.

40:38 Okay, and let me say one advice or that I learned on my own myself. Don't try to do it everything. So you are not alone. You have two things that you are with. You have got a lot of teams. No, you've got your structure. You have to leverage on them. So you don't have to do everything alone. So you have to focus on building the right teams, the right structure that can help you to do things better than you.

41:05 So this is my first advice and another point that this is strong because I always follow this in my private life. Every time that I see my son saying I cannot do is something I cannot support. I cannot feel it me. So you don't have to accept people saying I'm not able to do it. I cannot do it. You have because it's a matter of wish to do. So it's better to say I don't want to do rather than I can't.

41:35 Okay, I can maybe understand your point. Maybe you don't want to do it because you don't agree with the decision. We can discuss about it. But I cannot do. It's a no. I want to do a citation of Mikael Ebening, that is the founder of Not Impossible Lab. I don't know if you know it, but he's always said that impossible is something that nobody make possible yet. So I think that there's nothing you a person cannot do.

42:02 It's just a matter of which. So I want to say people to Say the honesty. Try to challenge your people. Your, your, your job is also challenging the status quo. Challenging what they are doing. Not just protecting the road, is trying to get the maximum of the person understanding the weakness. Point the straight point of your people and try to stretch them with respect for sure. But do not accept I cannot do it. This is one of my biggest suggestions I can say to new cfo.

42:33 It's a really great suggestion. Now, if you look at your career, looking back at what you have done and what you've been accomplished, what would you have done differently?

42:43 Good question. I say I'm. I'm happy about my career and my progression. Thinking that I was starting as a plumber. No joking. No. I would say I would have embraced the unknown earlier, let's say in this way. Because when every time you're changing, you are moving from something you know, your comfort zone to something that you don't know. And when I was at the beginning, younger, I tried but was a bit more scared to do a big jump.

43:08 The biggest jump was in 2000 2013, my biggest one. And I wanted, I want to have done it earlier because I see that every time you feel uncomfortable in something means that you are growing. So you have to try to put yourself in an uncomfortable position and try to do the maximum in order to be comfortable the ball. Okay. So this means that you're growing, you're learning something that before you weren't able to do.

43:42 Or you are also create networks with people that before you weren't able to reach. So it's important in my opinion, to do some bold decisions. Sometimes in the life there are sliding doors. I. I be. I'll be honest with you. Most of the sliding door I had in my life, I was quite lucky to select the right one.

44:03 So.

44:04 And I arrived where I am. It's also a matter of being lucky sometimes, but also of effort, commitment. Nothing is coming from free. No, you don't have to say, oh, I want to work one hour a day and become the CTO is impossible. You have to work hard, study a lot, and with your commitment, you are able for sure to reach whatever you want.

44:29 Want.

44:29 It's a matter of wish. As I said before, you have to give yourself a goal, an objective in your life. What I would like to be, what I want, where I want, where I want to be. That that could help a lot. Giving yourself a goal also in your private life. Amazing.

44:43 And Mirko, one last question here. Looking at the accelerating pace of change that is happening in the world as well Due to technology. What do you think are like the what concerns you have about the digital future and also what's exciting most about this?

45:00 Let me say I'm in reality I'm quite excited about the future as I am a technology man in the realities as I said. So AI is fascinating, scary from my point of view, but also fascinating and let's say more than concern or excitement. I'm only scared that we are using the technology in the wrong way for the future. AI is also creating the basics also for bad usage. Let's say this could be a concern but I guess the future will be more faster than now.

45:35 As I said I I'm a strong fan of changes this every year starting from now. We have seen things are changing quite fast so you are not boring that the point. From the other point of view, I hope that we are not forgetting people. Okay, yeah, but as I said this is my mantra. The people I want to see also. And I hope that we will have a very fast environment, careless environment, but also an inclusive and human environment so we don't have to forget that part.

46:09 And I hope we are working hard to keep people on top of any technology this world can create in future.

46:17 Here you go. Thanks a lot for your time. It's been an amazing conversation and definitely we're gonna have many more in the future and wish you a great day.

46:25 Meanwhile, thank you Diego. It was really a pleasure to be here and have a great day. Bye bye bye bye.

46:32 Thank you for watching this incredible interview. Leave us your comment with what you think about this episode, what you would like to discuss in the future or any guest suggestion. And remember, you can follow us on social media. You will find the description, the links. Thank you again for your time and I see you to the next episode.