Pendulum Parenting

0:00 I'm Dr Becky and this is good inside if my kid is upset about something and runs up and slams the door and and my response to all that is oh I know how frustrated you are this is so hard this is so sad and I'm not getting to the point where I'm like but seriously you can't just be running around slamming doors around here you know then I'm not actually doing the other part of parenting so the other day I was talking to my

0:30 friend and one of the hosts of the week and do hard things podcast Amanda Doyle and she shared a phrase that I loved pendulum parenting she was telling me that she grew up in a family where she wasn't allowed to have a wide range of feelings at all and so it was really important for her to raise kids who were allowed to have a wide range of feelings but then she wondered oh did I swing to

0:54 the other end of that pendulum maybe I haven't differentiated with my kids between allowing all feelings but not allowing all behaviors I know this is a conversation that's going to resonate with all of you this is my conundrum I have many conundrums conundry they they are a multitude of them but I think my main one is I am trying to understand the difference between allowing all of the emotions

1:25 and all of the feelings while not allowing all of the behaviors because I think that the way I grew up I was very performative like I always did the right things and acted in a highly respectful way and wasn't always sure that all of the emotions were received with the same degree of

1:56 welcomeness and so I really wanted my kids to be able to have all of the emotions that anger the frustration the resentment all of it like as loudly as they wanted to and the whole spectrum of it but I'm having a hard time figuring out where emotions translate to behaviors and how not to be teaching them that all behaviors are appropriate

2:26 someone recently said something similarly like in my house no emotions were allowed they're like I don't even know if happiness was really loud it was just like kind of just flat and and she's like I might have over corrected right and maybe that's what that's kind of similar to what you're saying yes Glennon and my sister Glenn and I call it pendulum parenting that we just like take wherever the pendulum was and swing it all the way over but like that's not

2:51 necessarily correct or not correct or incorrect but just as helpful and safe feeling for the child to completely switch in the opposite direction and I just want to land on a place where they can trust themselves to feel all the emotions Express all of their emotions but not necessarily act on the emotions to express all the behaviors that they're considering and that's what I'm trying to figure out and I I think it it always starts with this

3:22 like really inconvenient I guess kind of like Truth where I I mean I don't I don't know if this is like science-backed but but I do think we're just we're born with all the feelings and with all the intensity of all the feelings feelings are so intense we know that as adults and we're born with no skills for those feelings and the Nuance of having to teach skills to manage feelings while knowing for a good number of years those feelings will

3:51 continue while you're learning to come out in behaviors is tricky and most parents fall on one end of the spectrum or the other they see the the behaviors and they kind of reject the feelings underneath and they don't differentiate or it feels really important to be like I don't want to shut down my kids emotions like I I know that felt so bad for me I know that didn't work for me but then also in some ways those kids

4:16 aren't always learning the skills for the feelings exactly exactly so it's like if my kid is upset about something and runs up and slams the door and and my response to all of that is oh I know how frustrated you are this is so hard this is so sad and I'm not getting to the point where I'm like but seriously you can't just be running around slamming doors around here you know then I'm not actually doing the other part of parenting so

4:45 going to the other side of the pendulum like did you slam doors or were you like yeah no I would have known oh my God I would never have slammed a door Never by the time slamming doors became an option you knew by that point that is not for me that is not allowed here that would not have been among the realm of possibilities that would have gone through my mind so let's jump into some details and then

5:10 I'm sure we'll you know zoom out from there and then Zoom back in but like maybe it is the same indoor example or maybe it's something different like what might happen in your home that kind of brings this conundrum you know to light so I'm trying to think like an unfavored activity a it's time to do homework it's time to turn off the computer it's um and then so it's always like an

5:42 escalation right so it's time to do whatever that is and then it's you know the things that I would never have done the eye rolling the you know just the things that I interpret as disrespectful because it was that level of respect was required of me so I interpret it as I am failing to instill a respect for me in my children and then if it's the I'm not gonna do that then that escalates to you

6:16 can't tell me you're not gonna do that and then we get in this cycle where it may be that I'm over empathizing with I understand you don't want to do it it's going to be really frustrating for you but we need to set this time and do this thing and I just don't know that like is it that I have to do with that crap every time or like when is the point where it's like not to be to 1950s but like

6:41 when your parents are like go do your homework where the kid is like all right and they go do their homework what the hell does that start happening totally then I start going down the road and I'm like okay what happens when this child grows up and is like I no longer really covet your approval I have this whole world outside of you that I'm entirely more interested in pleasing than you like are they going to grow into

7:10 understanding this or are they going to grow so far away from caring that I'm creating a monster at that point where I don't have really the emotional leverage that I have with them now so let's jump into one of these things is it turning off screens is it homework is it we have to go visit family and it's like some family that like they're like or some friends that they're like oh so boring I don't want to go visit those

7:36 people or I have to take an errand with you and it's not something that's enticing to a kid and they're a little bit kind of grumpy about it what what's what's most visceral um let's say it's like it's time to turn off screens or stop playing with a ball outside because it's time to play violin like it's time to practice your thing let's take that one okay theoretically in theory right so what let's actually jump into violin a little bit is this

8:08 something one of your kids wants to do is this something that they like is this something that you know a lot of parents would only be used like I want my kid to play an instrument like you know I don't know so what's crazy and this is another thing I just think this is fascinating from a parenting perspective my eight-year-old daughter wanted to do it when she was six and she was very into it she was very

8:31 excited about doing it I thought she is gonna be like a virtuoso she's gonna be amazing and then I set up all the you know found the teachers set up all the things and then my son's like what the hell dude like what about me and I was and I was like you want to do violin I thought no chance in hell because he's just he's way more sporty his attention to detail his like you know I just

8:56 didn't think that that would work for him I'm like of course we'll do it zero chance I thought it would pan out we're six months into violin the violin teacher is like um I think we can retire your daughter like um we don't need to do that anymore but he's like really like I am wasting your money just want to be honest can I resign from your daughter but she's very interested in my son because he's really

9:25 freaking good and it just that was one of my early lessons of like oh you don't know your kids you think you know and you have them Typecast and you have them tracking a certain way and you're probably wrong on both fronts which I was so he's really good he has a really good gift and he's I think he gets a lot of confidence from it and he's proud and he can do something that no one else in

9:51 the family can do and that I think is a really good thing for him internally I mean I'm I'm making this up but he says when he's doing really well and he loves it he's like proud and happy to keep going now when he has to practice he's like I hate this and I want to quit so there's no that's a whole nother conversation about that but he he doesn't like playing he loves

10:21 to be a violin player but he likes the lessons does he like the lessons the practice is yeah a little bit the kick in the shorts for him yeah and so this might be a situation where I don't know if his teacher says like you have to practice this many days or just as a family you know kind of feels like that should be on the schedule yeah like he practices um his practice every day he probably

10:46 practices like three times a week which is like totally fine I have I have very mediocre standards total that's fine best thing for children you know just an average average okay so so the resistance comes is that what happens I don't want to practice or like oh or like Mom you're so annoying I'm not coming in it's not fair I'm not doing that right now it's not fair I'm not doing it so so one of the things that

11:11 struck me about your daughter and your son starting violin is actually just how different their starts were relative to you how like it came from your son had to like really push for this he's like hey what about me I want to do this when for your daughter there was something a little bit more within your relationship that that led to it he like really pushed for it well yeah he saw that I was signing up my daughter because she

11:34 had asked for it and then he's like what about me and I was like oh so mine she came to me and asked for it I was going with her and then he was like I would also like to partake of that benefit you're bestowing on my daughter on your daughter but when it comes to things like motivation right or Pride like often the further away someone else is from us the easier it is to feel I mean I I

11:58 think right like as soon as someone comes in and kind of takes away a part of that or now of all of a sudden my motivation is to like make someone else happy or someone else wants me to do it it almost feels like oh I can't this can't be my thing anymore he started with it as his thing yes so as we talk about like feelings and this difference between expressing feelings and behaviors which is all related I'm also

12:20 just struck by uh something that shifted from something that he very much like came to you with to now he's resisting you like At first you're like there's nothing to resist you didn't even want him to do violin and so what happens next so he he's he's annoyed and then is he is it like oh mom is so annoying okay okay fine or is it more like oh you're so annoying I'm not doing it and then there's you know some

12:45 type of more explosive situation it depends it's just like a ritual we go through where it'll be like the six minutes of the talking through it and you're so frustrated and you don't want to do this and you'd rather you know I'm doing the Dr Becky things I'm saying it back you're so fret oh it's so hard to stop doing something you want to do and start doing the violin you know I am I'm taking my notes

13:13 from you and and then some times there'll just be something said or an action like a door slamming where I just don't know okay is that a child who is comfortable in this home expressing the full range of his emotions and he knows he is safe to be angry at me and I want him to be able to do that and not be think that I'm afraid of that versus am I raising a kid who's slamming doors

13:45 around our house and also potentially taking our family emotional hostage and and do we have to go through this rigmarole every time and how do I make him comfortable with his feelings while being like you have to do the thing and you have to not slam doors in her house because Mom and Dad don't slam doors yep like we don't do that here and and how old how old is your son ten okay so so it's interesting I feel like to me

14:14 I'm having some different questions come up for me not so much about feelings and behaviors but around kind of clarity and boundaries right one of the things I think about a lot with my kids because we have some Financial privilege for sure in my family just meaning like I can sign them up for a bunch of different things and something I think about a lot is for kids who have that Financial privilege like they never have to learn

14:36 like what they have to put in to continue this to happen like effort like I'm like I feel like my kids need to pay with effort if I'm gonna pay with money and time right but I've learned with my own kids that it's really important to establish that in the beginning so oh you want private lessons or you want me to drive you to baseball okay like I just want to be upfront with you like taking the time out of my schedule and

15:00 paying for that like those are things we can do that's not I don't feel guilty about that and that would mean you developing a practice schedule on your own and and following through and I can help you figure that out but you practicing outside of those lessons is in my mind what you would need to do so I feel good doing what my role is um and I feel like those things aren't like contracted for enough and then

15:28 inevitably yes this is what happens right it's like we kind of pay for the thing or we drive them to the lesson which which is like some it's a cost oh my God right and then you end up presenting your kid that's what happens like you resent you're like why aren't you practicing maybe it's not that we have a fantasy of him like being in Carnegie Hall but you're like just like show some effort or do something you

15:48 know as part of this Arrangement yes right and if you're not going to do anything don't just give me like a whole nother job which is trying to get you to do the thing yes completely and and I think that is powerful to say like look I wanna and I would say this to him in a calm moment you know you know what right now at this point in your life it is my job to help you figure out what

16:11 you love to do and to facilitate those things happening often there's Logistics there might be driving there might be organization and there might be money those are all facilitating those things happening it is it is not a job I want to take on to get involved in things like practicing these activities outside and I think I've become way too involved in those moments because then of course when I get involved if I'm not supposed to be involved really from the first

16:37 place well now of course now you're resisting me involved which I actually understands because we'd all resist someone being involved in something that they're not supposed to be involved in it's just a recipe for disaster and so I want us to think about a new way to look at violin what's my job what's your job now one of the best things about being a kid in our families I'm happy to help you do your job a lot of kids need to

16:59 figure out how okay something like practice well like do I need a visual reminder when would I actually do that you know but but I don't want to do your job for you and I think it's going to work out better for both of us how might you how would he respond to that you think I think if he was involved in structuring his own day like if we were like let's look at a week here's when

17:20 you have basketball practice here's when you have baseball practice here's the time I know you really love to play with your friends when on this schedule do you want to add your three days of violin practice yes I think if he named it and he wrote it that would be very different because it probably In fairness to him feels like a whirlwind like I've just reached the thing where I'm like God damn it we haven't practiced in four

17:47 days and I come rushing in and he's like what in the face how is happening right now exactly exactly I do that to my I feel like for me it's with my son my oldest who's 11. yeah and it's baseball yes right and I'll be like oh like you know he's asking to like play a video game and like I'm I'm driving him I live in New York City I have to get my car out of

18:08 the garage and then drive my husband comes up early from work and we're paying this money God forsaken amount of money and then and then he's like can I play this video game and I'm like oh my goodness but that's my trigger yes and you're right and and then I think when we say like well is he respecting me or not or this it's like wait maybe maybe I just need to ask a different question yeah probably the setup here isn't

18:30 working for anyone and this is where for your son I even tie it back to how he started he's like I want to do that I want to do that it's not so much we can get to the same indoors because I think there's a way to intervene there but I'm also just thinking it's not so much much what do I do when he slams a door but like how can we structure this in a way

18:50 where he doesn't even really want to slam a door because he's actually motivated to do something that he wants to do that's how this started in the first place and you know what's so interesting Dr Beckett because it's like the one thing is I really the thing I want most is my my kids to be internally motivated for what they want because like I have been a dancing monkey my whole life you know here in a straight A's here's my

19:21 everything and that I have always been incredibly driven and a very high achiever and then I've been like wait is that because I wanted that thing I don't even know I don't even know because I'm I'm reaching for the next thing always but I but I want my kids to be able to be like that's a thing I want I have the efficacy to be able to figure out how to get there and I know it's a thing I want and

19:49 I want to get it and I I actually think that I can separate myself from what I want for my kids and get behind what they want for themselves but what you're suggesting is that that's giving them ownership over the thing yes I call these conversations like with Mike it's like family meetings and I think setting it up like that so respectful to a kid to say to him hey let's find a time and like give him

20:17 let's find time is good for both of us I want to do something and if you haven't done this before you say I want to do something we haven't done before some type of like meeting you know you could say like at my job you know when things don't go well you get the other like core team members together and everyone has good ideas and you come together and figure it out and I don't think you and

20:34 I have done that I don't think I've done that with you the truth is this whole violin practice thing it doesn't feel good to either of us and you know what's interesting we haven't yet sat down and been like hey you have ideas I have ideas and I just know when we do that like we're gonna come up with like a really good solution and and then to actually have a meeting with your partner too not with other

20:57 kids just them and then it's so powerful to actually bring Pen and Paper to that meeting and just be like okay we're gonna write down ideas what like what are what are some ideas around you know a violin practice schedule like you know what's not working now you know what what's the worst part of it for you what's the most annoying thing I do and then to write uh you know Mom Mom just kind of comes at me randomly when I'm

21:18 playing Wiffle ball and says it's time to practice like and just like I'm gonna write that down that yep that does sound pretty annoying yeah right um and then you might say and you know one things I'm gonna write down is I want to be less involved in your practice goal well unless that doesn't mean I think it's okay not to practice right I actually think it's okay to practice but I think you're a kid who

21:39 likes violins so I actually think we're gonna figure out a way for you to want to do more of this I also want to be less involved so I might write down like okay well I think it's important to have some practice and I agree it's really annoying for a mom to be dictating that okay right and in any conflictual situation if I like you and a husband who's like oh man I want to write down

21:58 everything you're saying right now it's really important you'd be like it's amazing right like oh my God here's six pads of paper exactly right so and and there's something about writing when your kids are upset it stops us from reacting and it just like slows down to even be like wait I want to get it all down so you can like slow them down if they kind of go on like a rant against you and then the goal of the meeting would

22:24 be to say like let's clarify what each of our jobs are around your playing and let's figure out how to each do less of the thing that kind of can be annoying to to the whole situation and let's end by coming up with a totally different way to go about this and and in this way you're racing like me and you we're on and I would say this I think kids need to hear this we're on

22:45 the same team we're both on a team against the way practice has been going yes like that's the problem we have a common enemy yes and it it it really works like it does right just like it would for us especially as our kids get older like they feel so respected probably one of the things that happens that leads to some of the slamming doors is you know kids and everything they don't feel respected like I was just

23:09 doing something now all of a sudden my activity has really become your activity you're controlling in me I want you out and the way that that all feels and gets expressed is slamming the doors so let's go to slamming of the doors though because I agree like send me the doors is like it's not cool not cool right when you were saying um I'm doing all the Dr Becky stuff right okay probably so one of the things I think no well I

23:34 think one of the things that's really important is I love validating emotions I love validating emotions and I think validating emotions has to more often go hand in hand with like really laying down where your boundaries are because if if that part doesn't come so my visual is like I'm just like sinking into the abyss with them like I want to let them know I'm like in the hole with them but I also want to let

24:00 them know like I I see out of the hole like I see I see where we're going uh we're not just both right so as an example oh this is so frustrating I know it's so annoying to stop one thing you love to start something different I love all that and then I hear myself wanting to say like and listen we just talked about in our family meeting like this is the time and this is where you now have like you know more

24:22 kind of capital like this is the time you carved out and you practicing when you said you were gonna practice is your end of the deal around playing violin and so I get it's frustrating I know you're a kid who can make a switch from a fun activity to one that's a little more you know challenging and I'm just and this is hitting part I'm just gonna go and get a drink of water I I just I

24:46 know we're gonna figure this out and the reason I'm saying we got a drink of water is like I'm just gonna back out of the situation like I'm not gonna stay in your face I'm gonna give my kid a little space to feel the independence especially a 10 year old would need to do to be like okay I guess I'm gonna do the thing my mom you know kind of suggested but at least that they're not

25:05 in my face I can like I can save face you know a little bit that's good yeah which feels different than I know it's so hard I know I know you're so mad oh you're so and so annoying right like it's like oh like how how many times can we really we're not doing really safe oh my God he started saying to me can you stop saying that right which I agree I might be I'd be like I know she's like

25:29 what she's missing the other half like I know it's enough you read half the book look at him I'm always so good at 50 of everything right or I say to my kid sometimes like look I I know this is hard and and I'm not talking about it anymore I'm not talking about more not because I'm trying to be mean you're allowed to feel the way you feel I also know that just spiraling over and over

25:53 and over and over in the same feeling does nobody any good so we're not going to talk about it anymore you're either going to practice or not practice we can deal with that later um but let's shift to something else like the loving empathic response I don't think it always is just sitting and spiraling in the feeling if the feeling almost becomes a spiral then again like you lose yourself in it what what is and so tell me for you Amanda

26:19 like what is that side of it like I'm done I know you're gonna figure this out we need to take a break talking about this I know you can make a good decision around this that side which I do think for some parents it can feel in conflict with the like oh that does that feel too much like my childhood like we don't do these things in our house does that feel shutting down to kind of a kid's

26:42 emotional experience no I don't think so I think that that is I think it feels like a boundary to me it feels like so I have asked you to do this thing you're asking me to do this thing with you which is like wallow for a long time and how unfair it is and we're just gonna agree that you're a big kid and all of your emotions are safe and like you're gonna clearly do what you're gonna do right

27:12 now and I'm gonna go do something else um no it feels it feels right because when you said kind of taking emotionally you had a phrase hostage yeah emotional hostage sometimes where he runs really hot and really cold he's very deeply feeling and sometimes I worry about you know we're all riding the wave in the family and that that doesn't feel I want to be very aware that my daughter feels the full able to express the full

27:42 breadth of her everything and not like she's accommodating and acclimating to that yes and I think in a way what you're saying and I think you can actually say these words but you also kind of I think are saying them through that added boundary is your feelings are real and I care about them and and they do not dictate what we do in this family and I think that's the Nuance in terms of the pendulum you can feel mad at me

28:10 maybe it's about something else you can feel mad at me and slamming doors is disruptive and dangerous and I know you're a good kid who is going to learn to feel angry at me and find a different way of expressing it and until that moment comes the reason I'm holding your door the reason I'm standing between you and the door is because slamming doors is disruptive and dangerous and you're angry and you're not allowed to slam

28:37 doors and Beyond protecting the family I always think like this is so protective to a kid because just as I don't know about dangerous but just as awful as it feels to not be allowed to feel your feelings is to watch the feelings that overwhelm you then you know take over the entire family house that also is like oh my goodness you feel like a Monster yeah and so that that's a conversation I imagine you could

29:04 actually have with him when when things are calm not in the moment in the moment you just are like I just gotta get through this but you know look and I would say this damn I'm sure you probably already have said something like this like you know one of the things I feel best about in our family is that you know you can feel really mad at me you can feel so many things I mean I wasn't really allowed to feel

29:28 difficult feelings in my family growing up and it's so important to me that our kids are I'm actually really proud of us for that I love that you can be angry at me and there may have been times that I've confused allowing you to be mad at me with allowing certain dangerous behaviors to persist and I'm gonna start differentiating that and you might notice that so I might say things like here's one of those times you're mad

29:57 that's allowed and I will not I'm not gonna let you or I know that you can say this differently I won't let you call me stupid a million times no I'm not leaving you I'm walking out of this room right now because I know you can find a different way to let me know you're angry at me that feels better to both of us I'm going to take some deep breaths I love you you're a good kid but saying

30:19 these things to me over and over is not allowed and I know you can do it differently right it's really it's really loving yeah to say that to someone and I think just explaining that like hey this was my Baseline like you said I might have had this pendulum right and here's something in the middle and then I would say what is if if saying mom you're stupid right or if saying if slamming doors all around

30:44 is is a 10 and I'm not going to allow a behavior that's attended now remember anger can be a 10. but I'm not going to allow the behavior right there's many ways that are true to express anger some are safe and some are not safe let's just brainstorm now like what's something that is a safer way of letting me know you're angry at me and I'd actually brainstorm and and I and I'd throw him a bone I'd be like look I promise I'm not

31:11 gonna tell you to like take a deep breath yeah it's just like not cool right I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna practice our meditation Right In This Moment no but what might he say um he might say taking a minute to myself yeah and if he said that I'd like I'd be like yeah I feel like that would be like a like a two like that would be like that would be really solid to find it

31:37 that when I was angry like go go ahead and do that but let's get something a little bit more yeah expressive I mean like he'd want to like maybe punch a pillow like maybe scream into his pillow right um great I'm gonna punch punching a pillow I'd be like that that's an amazing idea that is a way we get a feeling out we feel like we feel powerful because you can even have to I wonder if one of the things that feels

32:02 good about slamming a door is feeling powerful the truth is when some of us want to express anger we want to feel powerful so there probably could be another way you'll feel powerful another good thing about saving a door is you hear impact it's very real you're like I did that okay so maybe there's something about that and then again it's like well how else can you feel impact I don't know maybe it's you know again it's

32:23 punching a pillow it's throwing something you know you might even share with him you know you could say to me I want to slam a door I want to slam a door I am that mad I want to do it and I promise you I will believe that you're as mad as if you had slammed a door I'll know you're as mad I'll believe it um because as soon as you can express what you want to do as well I mean it's

32:45 a very sophisticated coping skill a lot of us are working on that yeah um instead of doing I'm so mad I could scream at you right now yeah right right but that's that would be that's a huge that's very sophisticated I'm working toward that yeah and I think the message to him which is just I think so often the message that these kids some kids don't get it's like I'm saying all these things because I actually number one want you to feel

33:12 this feeling I'm also saying it because you're a good kid like I I know you're a good kid and I know for everyone expressing feelings in a way that looks out of control it feels out of control that's not a good feeling for you yeah yeah he doesn't want to have that kind of power over the family yeah yeah the last thing I'll say is at times with my own kids it's actually been very valuable with certain

33:40 feelings to like make a list to be super concrete let's take a feeling and let's differentiate it from a behavior like even just knowing that difference like it's not taught to kids it's not obvious yeah that's so true right just like as a list okay so you know are you allowed to feel angry yes what about hitting oh no that's a behavior that's not so safe right uh okay feeling angry you know saying you're stupid oh yeah not not so

34:07 great thanks you're stupid isn't so great what about feeling so angry right and you want your kid to be like yeah that yeah yeah exactly it's kind of complicated right but that's true in our family we know you can feel so angry we can do better over time than saying you're stupid yep okay you know what else and then even to say like what is another Behavior that's not so great and what feeling is actually an okay

34:34 feeling under it right yeah you know like kids actually I find like will engage in this there's a little bit of like an intellectual exercise they're like oh that's kind of like interesting to think about and it helps them understand themselves yes as well you're good Dr Becky covered a lot you always do [Music] if you want to get the step-by-step instructions for how to do a family meeting including scripts for how to

35:05 introduce this to your child and how exactly to make this effective head to the show notes click the link for family meetings and I'll email the exact steps right to your inbox thanks for listening to share a story or ask me a question go to goodinsight.com podcast you could also write me at podcast good inside.com parenting is the hardest and most

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36:06 includes Sabrina farhi Julia Nat and Kristen Muller I would also like to thank Erica kabelski Mary Panico Ashley Valenzuela and the rest of the good inside team and One Last Thing Before I Let You Go let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside I remain good inside