Coach Ron Mann talks about John Korir’s journey to becoming the Boston Marathon champion

0:00 Everything that you say becomes like a rule. It is so valued. And so it's the coach that nurtures and decides the athlete that it's going to become in future. Too many coaches take credit for what the athletes do. The athletes are the ones that do it. You saw at the Boston Marathon the hug at the finish line. We got close to the finish. They know that he's going to win. So six of us go to the finish line. person who is in control of the finish line says one of you can go. Wesley and I looked at each other and I said Wesley you go.

0:36 This is a once in a-lifetime opportunity. So the two of them had to enjoy that moment. I wanted to say thank you for sacrificing your moment of celebration for his own brother. It's something you've trained him. You co you coached him for so long and it was this moment where you had to make a choice only one person could go and ideally it just seemed like it should have been you but you were the coach who sacrificed everything as you as you have been doing for so long as well and let his brother be with him. So thank you for doing that. That's the sportsmanship. Ron, what a pleasure to have you with us.

1:24 I have heard of you. I have read about you and I have read about your coaching achievements particularly and it is an absolute honor to have you with us today. Well, thank you very much. I'm I'm always happy to share my knowledge and my insights about as I always tell people is I've had the pleasure to be in this business for 53 years now and u I'm I'm at the senior part of my career and so therefore I'm glad to u u present my distilled wisdom and share that with as many people as possible because the overall goal goal is to make people run faster.

2:09 Indeed, as the wine gets older, it gets better. It seems like as you as you progress in your career is just getting wiser and better. And I see that with the results at the Boston Marathon, Chicago Marathon and many other races, you continue to create champions and now coaching for more than five decades. It just it sounds itself more than many many marathons. Yeah. How has all of this been possible? How did you all start the the joy of coaching and the interest of coaching long-distance running? Well, my as a young man, as a young runner myself, coming out of high school in the United States, I I lived in Phoenix, Arizona, and I was recruited to Flagstaff, Arizona in 1968. Well, the 1968 Olympic Games were in Mexico City.

2:58 So some of the top runners in the United States being aware of the fact that Mexico City was at altitude and at that time in the 60s there was very little knowledge about altitude and altitude training. So therefore four individuals went to Flagstaff, Arizona to train. Billy Mills who was a 1964 Olympic champion at 10,000 meters. Jim Ryan, who was a young upand cominging runner in college who had set the world record at 1500 meters, was training there. George Young, who was 33 years old at the time and was trying to get the Olympic gold medal in the steeple chase, which he ended up getting third, and then a young steeplechaser by the name of Conrad Nightingale. So, those four people were in Flagstaff, Arizona, and here I was an 18-year-old young man trying to learn not to be a coach, but to be a better runner. So, I learned all I could from them. So, then later on in my career, a few years later, I moved to Flagstaff and was chosen as the track and field coach at Northern Arizona University. So at that point altitude training was becoming becoming a thing and unbeknownst to me at the time it would become the thing that everybody needed to do. So and then a young runner from Kenya came to Flagstaff by the name of Ibraham Hussein. And Iraham Hussein asked me if I would work with him. And so I worked with him and I learned more from him than he did from me of course because he had already won two Boston Marathons. And so so I was able to be with him and he was nice enough to call me coach and so we went and he won the Boston Marathon in 1992 under my direction but really under our direction and I would say 90% of it was his direction and 10% of me learning from him. So fast forward so I started to learn the Kenya system then and then fast and so just just one point I had around then I guess just before this as you would have seen the the four top runners who came to Flagstaff. I guess around then Frank Shortter was coming up and he had become all of a sudden a sensation as well right in 1972 and 76 Munich and Montreal gold and silver medals. Correct. It just changed the whole scene of running long distance particularly in the US isn't it? Yes, very much so. There you go. Exactly.

5:54 And and then so then after Iraham then a young man from Germany decided he wanted to utilize altitude training. A guy by the name of Derer Balman. Deer Balman won the Olympic gold medal in 1992. And unfortunately there was some some controversy about that that he had used drugs and so on. But certainly he was a great runner and my own personal opinion having known him very well I think he was sabotaged. I don't think he was a drug user. I think he was sabotaged. Somebody didn't want him to do well. So anyway, but deer I learned a lot about the European system from him because they used a lot more scientific data and doing lactate testing with ear pinching and taking blood samples and so on. So I learned a great deal from him. At that same time the first man to run under the time of 27 minutes was a guy by the name of Yobis Wondiki also from from Kenya. So he came and trained in Flagstaff. So I had deer Balman who was one of the best of Europe and Yobis Madiki and Ibraham Hussein sitting in my office regularly and and so we would have roundt discussions if you will and so I learned a great deal at that point. So then I had the blessing of finishing my collegiate career in Flagstaff and then I was chosen to become the track and field coach at University of Louisville. And so one of my first recruits at University of Louisville was a young man who was from Kenya by the name of Wesley Creer. And I recognized Wesley was running 5,000 meters. And when he was about to graduate college, I said, "You're really not a 5,000 meter runner. You'd be a great marathoner."

8:02 So he went to Chicago Marathon and ended up in his first race third at the Chicago Marathon. So obviously he became a very good marathoner. And then I sent him to Flag Staff to train for the summer of 2011. And that's when he got second at Chicago in the fall of 2011. And then in 2012, he won the Boston Marathon under my direction. So then fast forward, Wesley and I became not only great coach athlete relationship but we became great friends and in 2015 my wife and I went to Kenya for the first time and learned about the Kenyan culture and Wesley career and I saw the poverty that was there and we decided we needed to do something to help the poverty and Wesley has a heart for the Kenyan people as I do. So then along comes Wesley's younger brother who is younger than he is. And he and Wesley says, "Would you coach my younger brother?" So I said, "Okay, I can do that. Here are the rules and regulations he has to follow." And so and I I think everyone a lot of people have read the article about the two of them and how Wesley and John had a fallout and and the the the thing was John was a very young man and of times young men don't follow but John quickly came around and and now he's become a great runner and and so the journey continued in that from 2008 8 to 2025 I've been working with John and and now he is and and we did it right. I mean, we didn't try and he was running 70 miles a week in in met in miles and u so we could have put him to 140 miles a week right away and broken him, but we decided we're going to do this right and do it in a in a systematic fashion over years, specific adaptation to impose demand. So, it took a period of time to get him from 70 miles a week, now he's running 140s. But you don't just go there at one fell swoop. You do it over time and do it right. And so I've been able to follow and do his training and we build it the right way. Wow. Wow. And I think both of you together did very very well like from the previous experience of coaching Wesley who was very very different. of course he did very well then Chicago and then Boston his personal best I guess was at Chicago if I'm not wrong if I'm not wrong at the marathon 206 13 and and then now 14 year younger John Kur you were training and of course he trained slightly differently and and then he was way faster now with everything that happened seemed like two or two marathoner that you have produced and then going to win the Boston Marathon, a race that is not the easiest to even finish for mere mortals like me for example.

11:46 And and here he was just blazing through it. if anyone saw the the race, it just so effortless that he looked as he as he did the race. Chicago and Boston both. Let's go through this a bit more in detail to understand how how training John was different than training Wesley and how you further evolved as a coach. Of course, you were very experienced already, but how you further evolved as a coach and how did you take John from 70 mi or so to 140 mi? What were some of the underlying things from training point of view that you were keeping in mind? Well, Wesley was is Wesley didn't have as much speed as John did, but Wesley over his college career, we were able to develop his mileage up. And when the first two years he was in college, he got injured a lot because he wasn't used to the mileage and wasn't used to the hard surfaces that you have in the United States and specifically in Louisville. So, he got injured. He modified his training to suit him.

13:02 People ask me all of the time what events do you really coach? And I said I don't coach Vids, I coach people. So John's career is very different than Wesley career. Wesley had a a Wesley had a internal desire because of what had happened to him and in his youth. He had been very he was a very poor child and got the opportunity to come to the United States and then when he got won Chicago and Boston he was able to go back and make his family u more affordable to live. So John had the the advantages of not being a very very poor person but a middle class person if you want to call it that in in Kenya. So, it was both a physical preparation, but it was also a mental preparation that he went through, cuz Wesley was very, very strong mentally early on because he had to be.

14:07 His older brother was, bitten by a snake and died and so Wesley was very motivated to change his life in Kenya and then now changing other lives. So, it was a physical thing, but it was also an a mental and emotional thing. And Wesley and I our our training system is a biblical training system. Okay? We use the Bible a lot in our training in that it's we take one day a week off.

14:42 It's a Sabbath, you know, and you take that day off and and we do things in biblical or u godly principles, 28 day cycles. Well, it's very simple. Moon works on 28 day cycles. Our earth works on 28 day cycles. If we look at creation, we can realize what needs to transpire. And so we use that and and as I have gone through the time from 2004 to 2025, I've realized that if you look around all of the answers are right there.

15:22 Science is creation and creation is science. And I asked a a a biologist friend of mine at one point. I said, " tell me tell me the science of running." Yeah. I said, "What makes you make the decisions?" She said, "You coaches make the decisions and then we got to try and prove it right." And and I was looking for the science to give me answers. Well, it's actually application works to improve science.

15:58 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think the the art of the art of coaching is the best science I would say. Yeah. Well, and I say regularly to people that there are three professions that have their titles the rest of their life. Number one is doctor. Okay. Yeah. Number two is reverend. And number three is coach. Coach. Because coach, once you become a coach, you're respected with that title and you have to understand that title from then on. And and what goes along with that is not only the advantage but also the responsibility. You got to be careful what you say to the athlete because the athlete hears everything you say and takes it into their heart.

16:51 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and you're so right. There comes the responsibility also for the coach to continue to evolve and the pressure I feel as much as it it is on the athlete if not more it is on the coach as well because like what you said everything that you say becomes like a rule becomes what I mean by rule is from a expression point of view I mean that it is so valued and and and so it's the coach that nurtures and decides the athlete that it's going to become in future, isn't it? Yes, very much so. And and and and that's what Wesley and I and John have been able to do in that Wesley is the big brother.

17:39 Yeah. And a valued mentor as well as, you know, a mental coach to him. and and you saw at the Boston Marathon, the hug at the finish line, that was very indicative and and what you didn't see behind the scenes at the finish line. There were about six of us that were at the finish line and that were to welcome him in. When when we got close to the finish, they know that he's going to win. So, six of us go to the finish line. The race directors ask us out and then the person who is in control of the finish line says, "One of you can go." Wesley and I looked at each other and I said, "Wesley, you go."

18:28 This is a once in a-lifetime opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, the two of them had to enjoy that moment. Yeah. and and that bond between the two of them and now John is taking a responsibility for transcend and now he is a role model for all of those 160 students at transcend academy and he lives up 3,000 meters away from them so he's there and now Wesley doesn't he's not regularly at transcend but John and Wesley's parents live about oh maybe a thousand meters away from Transcend and John now has built a house in the country out near transcend.

19:18 Right. I want to I want to talk about transcend in a minute but before that I wanted to say thank you for sacrificing your moment of celebration for his own brother. It's something you trained him, you co you coached him for so long and it was this moment where you had to make a choice only one person could go and ideally it just seemed like it should have been you but you were the one you were the coach who sacrificed everything as you as you have been doing for so long as well and let his brother be with him. So thank you for doing that. That's the sportsmanship.

20:01 Well, and and the part of it is I think too many coaches take credit for what the athletes do. The athletes are the ones that do it. And so the moment that Wesley and John could celebrate as a family. Yeah, that's a quite a joy. Yeah, it it indeed is. Now because you mentioned of the the support endeavor back at transcend what John Wesley and the family are doing. Of course Wesley has been also busy with his political endeavors. if I'm not wrong he has been the member of parliament earlier and and as we were discussing backstage there is a venture there is a social impact program that you have been part of as well the through the transcend talent academy it seems like a future of like it's going to be eaten of future in my opinion that's how it's it looks like do you want to talk about it what exactly that is and and how all of you are trying to create an impact through that academy. Yeah. Yes.

21:17 The the academy is a selection of very poor students and for them to be chosen to go into the academy and we have a very strict acceptance program. So once the student is selected into the program, we educate that student for the four years that they're there and eventually they will go on and get their degree, their their high school diploma and their tests in Kenya. It's it's a Kenya graduation exam if you want to call it that. Anyway, so once the student is selected, it takes about $2,000 per student to educate them for a year. So if you take 160 students at $2,000 a year, it's a considerable amount of money. And and so we raise donations to support them, but the students then get uniforms, they get food, they get dormitories, and they get their education. So it's a a real privilege if you are selected into transcend academy from that area because you came with maybe very little and by the time you graduate from the program you are educated and you are a good runner and a good person. So that is the idea and so there are three flags to going once you graduate from transend if you're good enough as a runner. Okay.

22:55 You then can go become a professional runner as John did. Okay. Okay. Secondly, you can get a scholarship to the United States, come and run in the United States as Wesley did. Or thirdly, you can then if because of your education and passing the the Kenyan exam, you can get free education to one of the colleges in you know like University of Elder or whichever university. So then you can come back into the commun community and be maybe a nurse or a doctor or a or a lawyer or whatever from your education that you got. So that is a focus of of transcend academy and it's building better people with a better education who are great runners. That's that's the goal and and so we want to find the next one. Now, our one of our first success stories is Wesley Kipu, who graduated from Transcend, went to Iowa State, is now training in Flagstaff, Arizona, and just got in the top 10 at at the at the Boston Marathon. That's a success story, and we would like to see that times 160 indeed. it will it will hopefully come true and and just from my understanding it's only Kenyan runners who can be can Kenyan kids who can be part of this program. Correct.

24:29 Correct. And and they've got to be selected and primarily they're from the area of Cherangani which is north of Elder. It's a it's it's it's a it would be equivalent to in the United States a a state. Okay. So it would be the state of Alabama for example or any one of the different areas in Europe you know as it's a portion of the community and and and it's a very it's a rural community mostly farmers with some smaller cities nearby Catali and and Elderets the closest one and then E10's not very far away.

25:12 Right. Got it. And so now this brings me to a a very curious question that is around coaching. I I got the the social impact and the the the kind of help that the Kore family and you together with the coaches under your guidance are bringing to the country there and then globally creating world-class athletes. Yeah. The question that comes here because the kind of podcast this is people keep looking for those magic wands to figure how do you create these elite athletes? What goes into their training? Like with the moment you know we saw John winning the the marathon, everybody was curious to know what his training program looks like.

26:05 so so maybe let's let's go through this in detail. How do you how do you train these elites? How they become elites like this? I think u not many times we get to speak to someone like you to go through the details of coaching whatever is per permissible. Of course it will be fantastic to understand that. Well it it's been developed over time and it's it's scientifically based. one of my early mentors, was a guy by the name of Dave Martin who wrote the book distance running way way back, but he was a scientist and and, so I I use scientific approach. I used biblical principles and I use feedback from and thankfully at this point in time we have a number of ways to get data back to us and I use both Strava and and Garmin Connect to get the data on a daily basis. So what happens is John finishes his workout and they're 7 hours in advance of us in the United States. So he goes does his workout which I prescribed. He comes back, he downloads that information and it comes right to my computer here in Louisville, Kentucky. And then I look at it and analyze it and give him feedback.

27:27 And so that's the way we do it. And and and we have developed it over time and and and the good thing about it is John is becoming very knowledgeable about his own training and so he's giving more and more feedback as he trusts me more and I trust him more. Okay. And but the difference between we'll take Chicago and and and Boston. obviously Boston is a very hilly course. Okay. And so we had to do more hills. So we prescribed more hill training. and so his tempo runs instead of being flat tempo runs to run very very fast, we were trying to end up running tempo runs that finished up a hill and then came down off of a hill. the last three miles and as it worked out in Boston as we all know he left the group at the hill and never back and you know and and so the training methods are it's I call it specific adaptation to impose demands okay specific adaptation that means he's got to do something in his training that he's going to do in a race okay in Chicago we knew that he was capable capable and had been for a couple of years to run very very fast. So in his tempo runs, we took his tempo runs longer. So instead of going a 10 or 12 kilometer tempo run, he extended those out to 20 kilometers and try and hold that pace that he held. And so the feedback is I see his heart rate at at 12 kilometer and I say, "Okay, can we hold that for 15 kilometers?" And then I get that data back. I look at it and I go, "Okay, it looks like he can hold it for 15 kilometers, but if I back it off just a little bit, he can hold it for 20 kilometers." So, it's a matter of using the science and the knowledge that I have and the feedback that John gives me and the application that he and and and Wesley do on the ground in Kenya. Did that answer your question? It does. It does.

29:39 And it raises some more questions now. And when when we look at various training programs and hear from many many coaches they talk about several training philosophies. There is a polarized training model, there is a pyramidal training model and within that various zones that are being considered to be followed etc etc. would you suggest there are one or two tra type of trainings for sure or workouts for sure that will work for almost everyone regardless of their training status?

30:23 Well, generally it's applicable to everyone. Generally it's applicable. But then you've got individualized training and that's where it is important to be able to indivi individualize training. I've gotten lots of lots of people who have now asked me to train them. Okay? And I won't do that because for me to to analyze the data and to communicate with John and three or four others, it takes a great deal of time. So using the platforms and the training zones and so on, you you've got to it's a very fine dance between science and then intuition and sometimes you've got to go with intuition and so I try to utilize that and and and trust my faith that what I'm giving him is God ordained and and it's it's It's it's meant to be for him to to do well right now. We we are a mature runners. So we are not elites. We are not semi- elites. We have full day jobs and in addition sure we travel for the love of running. we'll go to Boston and if we achieve a sub three we'll be super excited and that will be our gold medal. Yeah. but in the time and effort that we can put in we want to optimize our training. I wanted to understand are there few philosophies from elite training that we can implement in our training that will help us run faster and and that's one of the things that I I I want to do because I have had so many people reach out to me.

32:05 I think that what I need to do is at this point in my career is is maybe take my very specific training that John and other marathoners have done and then boil it down into a a platform that is applicable to all kinds of people. one of my new training people that I'm working with and and this is an insider information. My my nephew is wanting to he's a he's a a doctor or a physician's assistant in Indianapolis, Indiana. And he says, "Okay, will you help me?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, "How much are you running?" He says, "About two miles a day."

32:56 And I and if it were a normal person, I said, "I can't help you." But for him, I said, "I can help you." And and so, I'm trying to boil this down. And I realized when in doing this that I can use the same principles for him that I use for an elite runner, but I've got to boil it down. And so one of the things that I'm really looking for is I'm looking for a platform that will that I can that I can build a program around that would be applicable to the normal marathoner. because there's so many programs out there that you know that the coaches are trying to make money off of it. And and my my idea is that I don't want to coach a a thousand runners and and get $100 a piece from each one.

33:44 I'd prefer to build a platform that anybody could pick up and utilize. And I I understand there needs to be a a cost to that and those that are designing the programs that's fine. But my idea is if I can pass that forward to the general population, I would be happy to do that. Nice. Nice. So, so the question is that if I were to look at running faster, would you suggest at least from the example of your your family member who is running I hope more than 2 miles a day. Now I told him that I wouldn't pick him up until he got up to 30 miles a week and so now he's trying to get to 30 miles a week so that I will ride him a platform. I said until got until you get to 30 miles a week you're not good enough. Got it. That's the baseline. Now we are running 30 miles a week. So maybe we can be accepted.

34:41 are there a couple of train types of training that you would suggest are for sure building blocks of running faster for us? For example, we have time anywhere between 8 hour to 10 hours per week. Can't run also can't take the training load more than that. and we have seen here in India as well as many other places chasing a sub three for a marathon seems like a dream for most of us runners if we are achieving if we are going to achieve something like that would you suggest whether it's a easy effort run or any a fart leg threshold what would that be that people start from well there there's a couple of things that I that I really preached that I've learned from the Kenyon runners the Kenyon runners on her recovery days run very very slow. So I think as a general principle I think most runners as they get along in their training as a as a amateur runner let's call them they I think they run their hard runs not hard enough because they run their easy runs too hard. So it so you need to concentrate on three runs a week that are very hard runs and in the in between you need to rest as much as you work. So if you're going to do a tempo run on Tuesday now you've got to have a recovery day on Wednesday and then again you can have another workout on Thursday and then another workout on Saturday. So you can go three workouts a week and and but those can't be backtoback. They've got to have recovery in between them. And you've got to hit all of the different energy systems. You've got to use the aerobic system, the anorobic system, and then the speed system to some extent so that you can carry that over time. So those are the three principles. But, in general, as you build a program, it's got to have the tempo training because you've got to be able to carry that lactate level and be able to, bail out that lactate, if you will. And I use the lactate as a example. I say imagine you're sitting in a boat and as that boat is got a hole in the bottom of it, you can bail out the water to a certain extent, but once the hole gets too big, you can't bail out the water anymore. And that's sort of the way the lactate system is. Once you get that boat too full of water, it's going to sink. And so that's the way lactate is.

37:17 If you get the lactate levels up too high, you're going to fail. So the key get to work in the zone between the two lactate levels and push your upper lactate level as far as you can. So if you find that you're able to run your tempo runs at a certain pace, then you extend that over a longer pace. Okay? And that's applicable whether you're a a you know a 4hour marathoner or you're a two-hour marathoner. It's the same principle. Okay? And the same thing is true if you aren't comfortable at 8minute mile pace at some point in that if you're going to run a 4-hour marathon you got to run 8 minute mile pace at some point. So to go out and run 10-minute mile pace all the time does no good. So at some point you got to have specific adaptation to impose demand.

38:12 You're going to run 8 minute mile pace or you're going to run 440 pace. But you've got to be able to do that. Did that answer your question? Very well. Very well. now it seems like we have also been told that the easy effort which you said most of us immature runners don't take it easy. the the recovery runs seem still too fast. The easy runs still seem fast and then the hard workout we can't do as hard.

38:40 Now what in your opinion is the role of easy effort run not recovery run as as much but easy effort run is that something that helps build the large aerobic base and that's critical for me to run faster later for a longer period of time. the aerobic training is very important and and my my general rule of thumb is that that you need to run 10% more than the timewise then you're going to run in your marathon. Well, that's not applicable if you're a for 4hour marathon or so. You've got to break that down and and break it down into maybe 10,000 meters, okay? and then be able to run it for 10,000 meters at a 8minute mile pace. so I I think it's important that you get the aerobic base which is going to be important particularly cap you know capillarian involvement. You've got to build the capillaries out there and as a young runner that's particularly important because if you're a 20 year old you know you can build capillarization very easily. as a 40 year old, you're probably not going to be able to do that as easily because your body just isn't producing the way it used to.

39:56 Yeah. Yeah. No. that that makes a lot of sense. The role of mitochondria is so important and that needs to be kept in account for sure. Now coming back to John, will it be possible for you to give us a glimpse of how his typical training week could look like? Well, it's it's very simple in that in that a typical running week for him is on Sunday he takes off. So Monday he comes in with a recovery run which is very slow. Tuesday generally is some sort of a a track workout. We've just built a new track at Transcend. and they're having their first competition there today actually. Oh, wow.

40:45 Yeah. and when I say first competition, the regional championships are at Transcend Academy. So we build a track there and it's being utilized. So he goes and uses the track and runs a track workout of some sort whether it's thousands, 400s. this what last week he ran 24 by 400 meters. Okay. So he's he's doing a lot of that kind of work and then in addition to that he's takes a a recovery day on Wednesday again and oft times because of the amount of mileage that he has to do we're doing two a day training and then on Thursday generally it's a tempo run and the tempo run is is very very that's a very strong run for us and he'll do sometimes two runs one in the morning and one in the afternoon with one of those two being a hard temple run. And he's doing his temple runs now somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 to 22 kilometers of a tempo run at 440 mile pace. So, but that's that's come over time. That's come over time. I mean, we didn't start out that way. And and people look at that and they go, "Wow, you know, I needed to go do that." Well, no. You John didn't do that when he started.

42:10 He's there now, you know, but in order to do what he wants to do. That's what you've got to run. He's got to run 437 mile pace for 26 miles. That's not an easy thing to do. So, you can't do that until you've done it in training. Now, he's not going to go do that whole tempo run out to 26 miles, but he's going to do it for a portion of that. So, tempo run on Thursday. Friday another recovery day and then Saturday is a long run and generally that's between 30 and 42 kilometers of of training. and it's generally you know 2 hours and 15 minutes of training and then in one session. in one session.

42:52 Got it. And so it's not a not a very easy run for sure. No, but it doesn't have to be fast. It just needs to be consistent and he needs to have his heart rate at a point that is below the lactate level because we don't want him developing lactate in the aerobic session. So you do specific adaptation to impose demand. What are you trying to do in that workout? We're trying to build aerobic capacity. So in there you want to work that zone that is aerobic capacity.

43:24 Got it. And do you also then focus on cross trainining, stretching, massages, strength training, et you know he he's very good friends with Ko Kipogi and Kipchigible uses the the gym work and John has implemented the gym work and I think on Instagram people have seen him and he's doing the gym work and and there and that's been very beneficial not only to his his training, but his his strength training as well. His his form has gotten much better because of that gym training that he's done. And then through a through a situation at Transcend, he's been able to his relationship with AS6, they've been able to hire a a massage therapist at Transcend. And so he has full-time massage therapy available to him, which is is great. one of the things that they don't have in Kenya is there's a problem with having ice baths there. So, we're trying to work out a way that so that we can have ice baths available for him because that's important in training as well. So, you know, the regeneration portion of it and then you know Mortina has been very generous and providing electrolyte replacement and so on. So, that's been a very much of a a help as well. So we're trying to add more and more things that not are that aren't available in Kenya to his training program. And so we've been trying to do those kinds of things to enhance his his auxiliary training as well as his his regular training.

45:06 Beautiful. I was asking all these questions also because here in India one of the things at the elite level of training we keep thinking about why India as a country has improved in almost everything except our timing improvements in the marathon. we we set the national record in 1970s. Y and that was 212 and we have not gotten any close to it.

45:41 Our winners currently at the national level in the country in the marathon are at around 216. They just not getting faster than that. In between we did see half marathon timing at around 1 hour few seconds and most of other marathoners are between 1 hour 1 minute 1 hour 2 minutes but the marathon timing is not coming below 216 and who better than you to talk through it as to what could be happening what are some of the things you think if you were to advise we should be looking at differently. Well, it and this is a very peripheral look at it, but right specifically you can the general rule of thumb is double your half marathon time and add 10 minutes. So, it looks to me like if you're running one hour for half marathon, you should be 210 area for the marathon. That's that's a general rule of thumb. So as a peripheral look at it, I would say just looking I would say probably that area of tempo training and extending tempo training over time pushing them beyond maybe 10,000 meters of training at tempo level to 12 and 14 and 16 gradually over time would be my specific peripheral look at it.

47:11 Yeah. Because most people do the long runs, that's not a problem. And they're more than glad to do the track work. But the area that people have a tendency to shy away from is those tempo runs because there's nothing easy about a hard tempo run. That is true. That is true. That is true. And and it can be very painful. Yeah. And the other part of that is it is important to to I think I don't know in India do you have running groups because running groups is important to have someone who's going to push you on those tempo runs specifically and sometimes you have to have two people that are helping you push. So if you've got a talented runner and and you have several other not so talented runners they have to do it in relay form and that you you're going to run a a 15 kilometer. So you have someone run the first seven kilometers with you and then you have someone else run the last eight because then they can push you along the way. Yeah. No run running groups do exist at all levels including at the elite levels and they do operate in in smaller in smaller groups. We are seeing some good successes at mid distance and shorter distance level of running.

48:29 Somehow at the marathon it's still not there. And one of the reasons we think could be that as they start to become little senior they get an government job because of their performance at the shorter distances and that might just bring some set of complicency that they do not need to work as hard and also running marathon doesn't bring lot of cash. Mhm. Here in India and so the the motivation monetary wise is is marginal as well. That could be another reason but as you said the training philosophies as what you suggested could just be peripheral and something more specific needed to be to be seen in detail and my question was more just at a macro level since we were discussing about elite training that's why I asked this question it's it's been a pleasure so far discussing your journey John's journey and everything else that you have contributed I think This is one of the most prolific conversations I have had in my podcast journey of last four and a half years and thank you so much for making it very insightful, emotional and it coming directly from the heart. So thank you so much for this detailed conversation. Yeah, I I I just want to say, you know, how much I appreciate it and and the more that we can get information out to the general public and what's going on in Chair and Ghani and what Wesley and John are doing collectively along with all of those that are around him, the better off we can do in in helping the world in general. the world is a a very complex place right now and we need to make that a place of and and marathon running it it it's all level at the start line and the journey along the way gets little a little rough but everybody eventually is going to get to the finish line and so it's our job to make that journey as as fun as we can and as endurable as we and and and my philosophy towards marathon training as is as it is in life for those much is given much is expected. I've been given much and much is expected from me.

50:59 Thank you and thank you for having that mindset and I think these are the things and these are the conversations and experiences says that keep all of us going and and I think this is the beauty of sport that we all connect. This is the beauty of a sport that we all spo speak and we are speaking now here understanding from your journey and I from the entire conversation of last 50 minutes one of the things that I'm taking away there is a need for all of us to do a little more than what we are doing and we all can do a little more than what we are doing and thank you for showing that way to us. You're welcome.

51:39 Thank you sir. Mhm.