Getting Started with Amibroker

0:00 Okay, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Line Your Own Pockets. Uh, in this episode, we're actually going to talk about my experience with Amnroker. So, I've been using Real Test for ages. Uh, it's what I do kind of exclusively for all of my swing trading and uh even currently everything I've been doing for about the last year in the day trading side of things. But it felt like, especially for the day trading side, I was kind of starting to pop up against a wall in which if you haven't seen this already, make sure you go back. We did a whole kind of comparison with different back testers and and what we look for in back testers and all that. And the main kind of glaring problem with real tests is the lack of intraday data. So, to get into that and maybe do some more short-term strategies, I decided to go over with Dave's suggestion of Amnibroker. So, we're going to talk a little bit about my experience so far, the struggles that I've had and uh and maybe some ways to help you guys get started if if you're going to be interested in in either making the transition or or the leap into Amna Broker for the first time.

1:07 >> Yeah. So I this will be interesting and and it's it's been really interesting slacking back and forth with you as you've gone through this because you know I went through this in like 2008 so >> it's [clears throat] been a long time since I learned am broker so it's really good to see somebody who's looking at it for the first time and the problems they're going through you know stuff that I you know boxes that I checked in the program like literally a decade ago that I haven't thought about since then oh yeah you got to check that thing. So, it this has been interesting. So, this will be good to talk through.

1:41 >> Well, and also I think the uh our backgrounds are obviously different, right? I'm not a a techsavvy person, right? I've used a Mac for ages just because I it's simpler than a PC, right? I've, you know, I've been a console gamer instead of a PC, right? I've always just uh known enough about technology to kind of get by, right? And and learned that kind of thing. So, I haven't been as deep in it with you, but I think that's a good place to start.

2:08 Actually, you mentioned all of these boxes and settings, and that got me to kind of my first realization about Amnib Broker is that it is not as much of a I'd say a pure back tester is real test is where you can see there's a lot of other things you could do with Amna Broker besides back testing whereas real test it's got like one singular focus. So when it came to setting up things, I didn't have to look at like charting and and all of this because uh one benefit or drawback depending on how you look at it is just lack of customization in real test. A lot of that has been kind of stripped out and it says uh so everything that you do in real test is just done with the scripting language.

2:55 >> Like the whole process there's no like I have to go and change any sort of settings. So that was the first realization, the first bit of advice is that you can write all this code for your back test. But then there's this whole other world of like report settings and everything that you have to deal with that is is something you have to think about. And that that to me that that took like two days to to figure out what some of that stuff was.

3:21 >> Yeah, some of that stuff's hiding. You can write code to customize those settings, but it's not really clear and and obvious how to do that. You got to go look it up and understand that part. So, uh, so yeah, there is a bit of a learning curve. It's, you know, it's not for everybody. Um, but you know, like we say a lot, you know, really good-looking equity curves turn people who didn't think they were programmers into doing what it takes to get by. Like you I mean, you're not a developer, but you're a systematic trader. That's that's what you do. So, uh, you're kind of proof that that's certainly possible and, you know, with enough motivation and certainly these days with LLMs is as good as they are and getting better, it's there's never been an easier time to start systematic trading.

4:15 >> Yeah. And that's that I guess leads me to to kind of my next point is that when I originally or a long time ago started to go down this route, I tried Amnibroker before even though I was still a real test user and LM seemed useless in helping me anything to do with it. Just could not understand. I kept defaulting to Python and writing everything in Python. I'd say no. And I I would even upload the the guides and everything and I'd upload a sample script and I say, "No, this is what I'm trying to do, you know, make this work."

4:51 And just completely useless across the board. I think it's been about a year since I tried last time and infinitely better. I've actually been using the new Gemini 3 model and it seems to fully grasp the concept. I don't know if it's Google's ability to read forms or or dive into something or whatever. It has been to the point where I'm getting it to write full scripts and and bugging bug testing and everything. And that's been awesome. But, you know, I this is where I kind of wanted to ask you cuz I know I I saw some emails that you were writing about this. Do you have any specific kind of advice for that the LLM work with inside Amni? Yeah. So, Amma Broker is the LLMs are still still have a long way to go to get good at amroker.

5:40 >> Um, the the traders that I work with to use it are uh they're better off using a starting point. And the big thing that the LM don't know how to do, which is also what most traders don't know how to do for back testing, is adding the custom columns. That's the key piece to actually getting a strategy that's profitable. >> If you're not able to do that, you're just sort of guessing and checking like like like we like to say.

6:10 >> So, I do have I do sell this template that is the perfect starting point for any amid broker strategy. And that if you upload that to the LLMs, that gives you a great starting point because it's it adds the custom columns exactly like you're supposed to and in the most efficient way and it allows you to you use that as a starting point for every strategy from now on. And >> that way you can automatically include your column library with it. So you know your column library is is growing independently of the back test you're running. So it just it's this cycle of improvement that you create for yourself with it.

6:59 >> Well, and that's another thing that I'll say about that I found about Amna Broker is that because it's way more commonly used. It's just way more uh you know out there. It's been out there for longer. You developed angry little communities. But there are little communities that that exist out there >> in which there's more like aftermarket parks. It's like if you're driving a Benz, it's really hard to find that perfect app. But if you're driving a a Honda Civic, then you're going to be able to find, and that's more of my experience with AMD Brokers because it's it's been out there forever. There's there's tons of people that use it. you can go and find [snorts] people who have built little scripts or add-ons or or little uh little additions to it all out there on the web. And this is not just in kind of the Amna Broker forum and community, but you know around it and outside of it. There's different people like yourself that sell you know like different add-ons or or provide different add-ons. I found a couple uh blogs that actually have been going through their process of building with Amni Broker and they're including like sample scripts and and things like that cuz the the basic strategy I want to start with is going to be like an incredibly basic thing just to kind of prove that I can I can work my way around it. And then very quickly I found that someone else had been doing roughly the same thing. So, I was able to kind of compare and contrast between what he did and kind of what I want what I'm looking to do.

8:26 >> Yeah. So, let's let's back up a bit. So, if you're coming from another back tester like uh specifically like Trade Ideas, so maybe you're using Trade Ideas, the big thing with Trade Ideas is all the data is right there. You don't have to import any data. It's all server side. So, you it's a completely different experience. Now the problem with trade ideas is you only have three months of back testing. So a lot of people go from trade ideas to ambroker to be able to back test a longer period.

8:59 >> Um but as soon as they start using amber broker like you like you did you're going to you're going to bring up the program and there's going to be no data in it. >> Yeah. >> You're like okay well what what's this useful for? So the first thing you have to do is not only import data but import your symbol list. So that's the first part you have to do is actually get the symbols in there that you want to populate data for then populate the data however much you want to do. So why don't you talk through what you did there and our back and forths about that.

9:36 >> Well and this was one thing that uh I will and would have done completely different. So, I went with uh to begin with Polygon. They're changing their name to Massive, I think, which is >> Yeah. >> Ridiculous. >> I refuse to use the word massive. I'm going to continue to use Polygon. It's >> still It's still Facebook. >> I'm not talking about I'm not I'm not I'm not bringing up that stock and talking about Meta, it's Facebook. And it's not Alphabet, it's Google. So, I'm with you. I'm not You guys can change your name if you want, but it's old to me. Anyway, and uh thankfully for Dave, he had this whole process with Python and all of this kind of stuff. And uh the reason it was a mistake is because I was trying to cheap out, you know, is like trying to like it's 20 bucks or something for a month. It's it's very very limited. But they the benefit or the the the drawback of them is because it's cheaper. It's basically just here's your here's your data. Have fun, right?

10:35 There's no importing tool. There's no way to, you know, go in and and have it automatically sync. There's no option for really live data until you're in the higher tiers. So, that was a nightmare. That took weeks of of kind of go through it. And I was I was memeing a bit with Dave because at the end of this, you have to build the database. So, I've taken, you know, again with uh with Dave's Python scripts, I was able to take all the data and kind of clean it up and get it looking like Amna Broker 1. And then you had to hit import. So, I highlighted all the files, which was like 5 years of data, and I hit import.

11:14 And I my my idea was I knew it was going to take a while, but I'm like, I'll go to sleep and then, you know, if my computer doesn't crash, it'll be done when I get up. It took 4 days and I think 15 hours straight. This thing just said non-stop. I don't have the most uh powerful PC in the world. I do most things on my Mac and then I've got like a server room with a PC in it. I like that it's like hardwired and all that kind of stuff so it's always running.

11:39 >> But yeah, 4 days nonstop of uploading this data to finally get everything done. And yeah, it was just crazy cuz again for contrast on real tests I use Norgate and every kind of 15 minutes in the background it pulls in the data and it it automatically kind of shoots it into uh to real tests and when I run a test it loads up all that data quickly into RAM and then from there I can just test very quickly as much as I want. So just a completely different experience.

12:07 Now, talking with you and I I just get you to confirm if I go with what was it? IQ feed that you have, it works somewhat similar. There's a plugin, it's all kind of taken care of off. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you So, yeah, you could take the what's somewhat of a manual approach with Polygon. [snorts] >> Um, and you know, some developer types or really tech type people will are kind of gravitated to that approach. They like that approach because you have real control over every little thing. You could you could >> make changes. You could you could do whatever you could and all the steps you just described you can automate. And I've got traders that they will they have scripts that run that will do exactly those steps each night. So they're not importing five months of data every night, but they're importing one night, you know, one day of data.

12:57 >> Yeah. So, um, so yeah, all that's possible with Polygon, but with IQ Feed, it is a lot easier. There's a plugin for Amid Broker. You you create a database quickly. You can do a back fill and backfill basically, I could do like 10 years of one minute bars across the entire US market in like an hour and a half it'll take to import that. So, yeah, it's a different experience. the other night. So the other important difference between polygon and IQ feed polygon you're is really only for importing data in a back testing mode.

13:38 As soon as you go to real time trading with ammon broker you're going to need IQ feed or something similar to to load your data in real time. So with IQ feed you get to do basically both of those functions. So, if you know you're going to real time eventually, then you may as well go with IQ Feed. >> The um and the difference isn't that much in my opinion to make it worth the time, right? So, I had kind of I had a little bit of a sunk cost fallacy where I'm like, okay, I've already bought a month and I have all this data. Let me just throw it in there and then use that. But very very quickly uh from this point I'm going to be switching that back over to IQ Feed and and I would recommend everyone do the same is you know don't cheap out on on the data and you're talking the difference like a hundred bucks a month, right? So it shouldn't be if if that's going to make or break your trading then I just don't you're just not funded enough to to kind of make it worth your while I think.

14:38 Yeah. Yeah. That was one of those, oh, I'm going to save a few nickels and then looking back and saying, I should have just spent a h 100red bucks, which is like a a trip to Starbucks with with my family at this point. So, the Yeah, definitely. Like that's your first tip is find something that does a little bit of a plugin because for me, I was you get that excitement of, okay, I'm going to get in here. I'm going to start testing some things. It'll be super cool. and then you hit the first brick wall of now you got to wait weeks to get any sort of data that you can start you can start playing with. Whereas if you had just went and bought the original thing, then that would have shortened the time dramatically and you could have spent more time doing so kind of felt like a little bit of of a loss of momentum, right? And then of course just how life works as a dad, kids are are getting sick all over the place and and different things are pulling me out. But I had this like one period of time uh to really sink in. So make sure you're you're >> you're spending for something. Not necessarily IQ feed cuz not sponsored, but something that is there's a module that that will plug right in uh and just save yourself the headache. I think personally.

15:47 >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably the right move. Um but yeah, so as you other thing is if you're doing that import is taking forever. I have had some traders that try that that assume it's gonna work and then they get to the end and there's some formatting wrong that they did. So they got this database. It's basically wrong. They have to start over. So now they're way back in square one. They're they're waiting that whole period. So another important thing is like try something that's really try a really bite-sized chunk that's not going to take very long. go verify >> and then when you're sure it's going to work, >> then you can actually go and uh you know have do the do the the big upload that you know is going to take a while. But only do that once you make sure that your data is going to look exactly like you need it to look.

16:40 >> Yeah. And it's Yeah. Just g get the plugin. save yourself the the time and the energy because the other thing that I I wanted to hit on there is that say I don't buy the live data right away. Well, that shouldn't matter the jump from back test to live because all I would then have to do with that same data feed is just go pay them more money to to get the live data going. Whereas now my game plan is when I'm going to switch to IQ feed, it's going to be a whole little bit of a learning process and and moving everything over where if you pick your even if you're getting the historical data, make sure you're getting that historical data from a place that eventually can give you the live data. So it's not just a completely separate process. And like you mentioned, god forbid there's a formatting difference between the two of them or the way they they do different symbols like warrants or or something like that and and you're yeah you're end up doing a whole another process again to reconcile the old data feed to the new data feed and yeah get something that you can kind of just flick a switch by paying them more or something and then that new data just keeps coming in uh in in real time. So you're not again you're not you're not worried about it.

17:54 you know, for Polygon's kind of defense there, uh, I paid them once, right? I paid them like 20 bucks. I downloaded five years of historical intraday one minute candle data and then I cancelled my sub. I don't need them anymore, right? They're gone. So, it means that, you know, yes, I'm not getting things updated every day, but if you're just in this kind of pure exploratory back test mode, you don't need the newest data, right? you just need a a chunk of data.

18:25 So my data will end in December of 2025 and unless it takes me 6 months to, you know, start back testing and launch a strategy, I have that 5-year back test window that I can I can run things on. So if you are in a a very cost-saving mode, it is an option, but I just don't think it's it's worth it personally. >> Yeah, the to Polygon's defense here, their APIs are quite nice. The way they make the files available, they're called the minute aggregate files. So they make them available over a um uh a very nice programmatic interface that you can connect to. So it's pretty like if you're a developer type, you could pretty quickly set up some automation around this. Mhm.

19:11 >> And you know, our back and forth, you know, you going through this really helped me to update the documentation for MapKit where I have like some tools that make this really easy. So yeah, your feedback here was great to uh for those scripts and you know, you can easily download them uh if you're a Mabkit customer. >> I'm glad I was a glad I was a good guinea pig for you there if nothing else. But so the let's talk about the databases themselves. So the other big difference between trade ideas and other platforms and ambroker is the back tests are running locally.

19:49 So there's a trade-off there. Um you know you have to use your own computing resources to make the back test work. Now I like that because everything's running locally. Nobody is there's no server side whether people are looking at what I'm running. Um there's you know there's an advantage there. So it is a little harder to set up. It's a little a little bit harder to manage but it's totally doable and and with practice it's it becomes second nature. Um, and you know, I kind of like that it's hard to set up because you know, a lot of people aren't going to be as persistent as you were and they're gonna give up, right? So, >> yeah.

20:36 >> Um, so the competition essentially the trader competition for this is is less because it's it's harder to do. Well, and I will say just one difference too from real test is uh with real test you import the data directly into the script itself. Uh whereas with this one you go through and you import the data first and then you you do the script. So again just little differences that you'll find kind of all along the way.

21:10 So for example like real test just built out in a section. So you got your import section and then parameters and then data and then uh the strategies from there and in the import section you just say you know take it from norate and all of that and this is all in there as well. So one thing I had to get used to and it took me a couple times is I would load up a broker and I'd hit a button to test and everything would would kind of fail and you have to go okay you have to first outside of the script test p you point at the database and then it up you know starts to draw from then after so yeah if you are coming from a real test or again with the trade ideas is a little bit different but just know there are these different everything's just located differently it again it feels as someone who uses a Mac for most things but then uses a PC for this. It feels kind of the same way where all the buttons are there. They're just, you know, in different kind of locations and you have to give yourself kind of that time and permission to go, okay, right?

22:06 They're they're these are located differently. I just need to to be okay that it might take me a little bit to find right this particular button. >> Yeah. So, let let's talk about the databases themselves. So um you know that's the first thing that people that take a little little bit getting used to. You you create a database you import your data into it. You can create multiple databases and just switch between them. So you might have so and in fact I encourage people to have one back testing database that has a bunch of data in it >> and then when you go to real time you should be creating a new database that's smaller and and you should have for the number of bars like that's how you control how big the database is and how much data gets imported into it. You control >> the number of bars that is in for you know for each symbol. So with a back testing database you can have a large number you know millions of bars but for real time you want to have it lean you want to have um the smallest number of bars possible to compute the indicators that you've decided are important for your strategy. So because you want the you want the uh the explorations the the real- time trading to happen as fast as possible so you get that signal in time to actually make a trade without it being too you know because if not it's too delayed and you're going to miss the opportunity. So um that that's an important distinction to make between the two two databases and you know with one you know efficient efficiency doesn't really matter that much but with real time it's it's extremely important well and like a lot of this I think hits the the mass of if you just wanted to do a difference what is the difference between real test and able broker right and we just talked about real test doesn't have intraday data but but all of this is just in my opinion just highlights that difference is that Um, you know, you talked about a lot of granular customization of your particular database. If that kind of stuff is really important to you, it's going to be easier or even more possible or possible at all in an amnuroker and not so much in a real test and a vice versa, right? where if you are if you are someone who's more interested in using a Mac, the real test is more of that kind of experience where you get what most people are interested in, what most people need, but without a lot of the the the kind of customization and the ability to really get in there. Uh whereas if you're someone who uses like Linux, then you're probably going to have a better idea with Amna Broker where you can get in and you can customize everything. And you know there's whether or not that's important to you I think is is a very personal question. But like I saw someone who had a really cool equity curve where as opposed to a full equity curve uh from start to finish he was able to pro program Am broker where it would start each year. So you'd have a graph of the year return and then in another box a graph of the year. So you like the ability to go in and just super super uh hyper customize everything seems only possible in the amniroker side but it's the question of whether or not that's important to you. So what I the path that I took I think is is one that actually makes a lot of sense for a lot of people where I go I went I started in something that was simpler like I way back in the day I started in trade ideas right where again there's no programming or or any it's all gooey interface and and away you go. Uh, and then from there I went over to real test which is a little bit more complicated but still doable. And now I'm taking the leap. So it feels like I'm kind of waiting into the ocean just a little deeper and deeper each time.

25:47 >> Uh, and depending on again you your experience and skill set and things like that might be good or you might just be someone that Yeah. you're uh you're using Arch Linux anyway and in which case just dive right in like just go. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you're right. Ammer Broker is completely customizable. The charting I really like the charting platform. It doesn't have as many capabilities as Trading View, but uh there's probably too many capabilities there. So, >> um but Amroker is completely customizable. You can draw all sorts of stuff on the chart if you want to. You can put buttons on the chart. You could literally draw buttons on the chart and have those buttons perform actions.

26:32 um like literally whatever code you want to run, you can have it run. So, >> it it's there's a lot of power there and uh it's it's very extensible, but you're right, it's like like I said, it's not for everybody, but um uh it it's been around forever. It's been around, I think, for 30 years now, he said. So, that's a long time for the software to be around. So yeah, that actually leaded to a question that I wanted to ask about this and this is just from say working at companies that sometimes the software is so old that as things update over time that initial software can kind of get dated I guess and and start to to pull that forward.

27:17 Um, and I don't know if this is just me getting old, but I'm starting to think about so what happens in like is it is is Amroker owned by one guy and is it to the point where if that guy leaves or changes or right hit by a bus or something like that, like how much does that affect how this thing works? And part of it is just like the the deeper my income kind of gets ingrained in a software I start to think about all the things around it like you know am I jumping into something which is another thought that I had in my head about a lot of people who just use like Python and you know with the ability to have uh AI is really really good at programming Python. I know that Python isn't centralized I guess is that's the word I'm looking for in the way that something like this would be. So, do you ever have any fears of like it going away or getting shut down or anything like that?

28:13 >> I don't because the I've I've watched this development cycle that he has evolve over time and >> the old versions work just as well as the newer versions. So, it's really I have such a deep respect for him as a former CTO myself just to to watch how he resisted the urge to add too many features to the software. >> Um added the the features that he did added. He added for very specific reasons and that were very logical. you know that when features are added, there's a really good reason he's adding them and it's specifically so it makes traders lives easier. Uh so it's I that is not something I worry about. Um I I never thought about that and that actually that was the one thing that kind of quelled my because unlike something that is server run if Amnu broker shuts us down I still have the version that's downloaded on my computer and it it will still work uh the way it always has and if I'm bringing my own data so everything I'm doing uh from outside of it it just might mean that it doesn't get updated but at the very least that doesn't create a panic situation of you wake up one day and you hit a button to generate all your orders and it goes >> true to hell. Right.

29:39 >> You can you you you would have months period to to figure out another solution and and to kind of move on from that. So that makes yeah that makes me feel better about it. >> So as you were talking about real test there you know the like you said the big difference is daily data versus intraday. And you know [snorts] >> I know Marston has had many many requests for intraday data. I'm on the >> and you might think you might think, oh, you know, just add in data. What's the big deal?

30:08 >> Well, the big deal is it's an immense amount of data compared to daily data. That's why it's so hard. That's why it's not in real test now. Just because the fundamental operation of real test wouldn't work with intraday data because there's it's just too much of it to to be able to load into RAM and run efficiently. So it would be literally a completely different experience using the software. So I'm sure that's why the um you know he he appears to be dragging his feet but really it's a it's a huge technical problem to solve.

30:46 Yeah. So that's when and when people come to me and ask which one to start in. I think that's you know if you were making a decision tree that's the the top of the trees. Do you need intraday data? Because yes, well then you only have one option. Go over there and and and have fun swimming in the deep sharp infect shark infected waters. >> But but it's even it's even different than that. Like it's >> not only do you need are are you using intraday data now, but will you ever need intraday data in the future?

31:20 >> Then that's so it's a little bit different than okay, do I need it right now? >> Well, I would say yeah. And and plans plans change too, right? So I would and then again it's it's like anything it's a very personal thing. If someone came to me and said, "Oh, you know, I could see in like two years needing intraday data, but and they're a dev like you," I would say, "We'll just go right to AM broker now." But if they were someone like me, I'd say, "You know what? Maybe get started in real test." because on top of the you know easy use stuff at the same time you're also getting a lot of things when it comes to uh you're able to very quickly get into the back testing side of things and the the data analytics side of things and uh you know being able to run that and being able to start trading and be able to do that right off the like way faster than if you went the Amnibroker way if you were someone unexperienced. So I'd almost push them in that direction just to say just do this understand it's you're probably going to have to jump ship at some point or like I'm planning on doing I'm not leaving real test the plan is to do right in day data over here and and whatever but like just if it's going to take you a long time which I very much fear am broker is for me then maybe just start with real test get in there start trading start doing this and then uh because I have been successful with these day trading systems using um real tests and using daily data. It's just eventually just know that there's a wall that you're going to get into at some point and plan for that that that kind of thing accordingly.

32:55 >> Yeah. So, okay. So, you got your data imported into amate broker. >> Have you have you gotten you used the the column library that comes with the cruncher I think right? Did you get that included into a back test yet? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. But I did give and I told Dave this. I did give Dave his his 50 shiny American dollars. So, and I told him to go frame it cuz he should pride that more than the the $50 he gets from somewhere else. But no, that is on the next week's agenda when I can get time away from family and things like that. But what I I'll tell you what I did to get started was very quickly I said I'm going to go to Chad GPT and get a script. But I was able to instead of that find these forms that I was talking about cuz my basic idea to get started with is let's take a trade as old as time that I think could work will probably work forever in some degree and it's a simple opening range breakout on on something that's that's highly volatile or or you know high relative volume or something like that. Uh a very simple strategy and I was able just to go and grab the code and copy and paste it and just get started. Now, the strategy is awful, but uh it's more about just validating. Okay, cuz unlike real test, like we were talking about, I'm still learning where all the buttons are. So, to be able just to get a stock piece of code and just throw it in there and have that work. Well, now I can start to play with right where the buttons go and what the reports look like and and things like this. And then I went and I got your course and then I'm going to go through that next week and then import the data from the cruncher after that.

34:34 >> Yeah. So that'll be that'll be so so the opening range breakout is actually the demo strategy that comes with the course. So you're going to have that, but also you're going to have the columns you can add to it. So >> yeah, >> it's not a bad strategy. In fact, one of the guys I'm uh coaching is is trading it live with a version of of literally the the demo strategy as a starting point. So yeah, it's there there's definitely edge there. Well, and it's funny, and this is a little off topic, but there are those strategies that I think in some degree might not be the best strategy in the world, but will always exist forever. And that's why I chose that to test because a it's simple, right? It's you're not using a bunch of crazy indicators. It's this is the range. And then also, I think the first strategy you should look at should have a couple different um parts of it.

35:26 So, for me, one of them was how do I define a gap, right? So that's how do I reference yesterday's data and today's data and then it was also how do I define a time of day right how do I you know stop loss profit targets so whatever you're starting with make sure it has enough different components that the rest of the stuff is almost easier like adding indicators indicators generally speaking are fairly easy to to calculate uh once you and really easy to use that's I think why they're so popular to as a proxy for price because the mathematics behind them are are really really simple. Um, so that's why I picked that particular strategy because I figure there's a base that makes perfect sense that people use all the time and and and we know has worked for ages and in some degree will probably work forever.

36:14 >> And then that framework got gets me comfortable enough that I kind of understand some of the coding and the scripting involved and then we start to dive in with with indicators and different things after that. But like anything and it's the same I always think of I've never written a book but I'd imagine would be the hardest part and it's like when the the word processor is empty and you're sitting in front of it, right? Get just getting anything on there even if it's then okay you you know that. So that was what I was looking for and that's what I picked that is just >> get me something over the hump that I know is not a waste of time. Like I'm not going to pick like a moving average crossover or something that I just don't think would ever work, but just something very simple. And then from there, I can start to add, you know, relative volume and gaps and all that kind of stuff on on top of it.

37:02 >> Yeah, love that. I like that approach. All right. Well, I think we probably I think that's probably a good place to stop with this uh episode. I think >> I feel like I haven't even looked at the how long we've been recording for. Gez, wow, we're 40 minutes in. But yeah, so we we might want to um attack this a little more because it is very interesting to me and I think we and we talked about this in the in the last uh episode I think about automating parts of your trading business that are not uh not the trading part of it. And I you know I think either me or you said something well hopefully you're not automating the fun stuff, right? And for me, this is, as much as I'm frustrated as hell with this, this is the fun stuff cuz I feel like I'm exploring something new. It's like when you pick up a new video game and you're starting to learn the mechanics of how everything works and >> and all of that. I feel like this is is super interesting to me right now.

37:59 >> Uh, a lot of because I suck at it, right? And that's what, you know, if you're sitting there and you're still someone and you're listening to this and you're wondering if you want to be a systematic trader, I think that's a a pretty good litness test, right? are you are you interested in kind of diving into the unknown and getting a little bit lost? And for me, the big thing that really kind of pushed me into this world was LLMs and NAI is the fact that I don't need to find somebody that I can bug 10 times a day. Every time I get stuck, I can just ask this machine and and get frustrated at it. And I I've cursed at chat GBT, I think, very much. But, you know, I can just say, "What's wrong? What's going on here? Give me some ideas." Uh, and so don't be afraid if you are interested and you're like, "Hey, I really want to dive into this, but I just don't think I have the technical wherewithal." Uh, I don't think you you need it as much anymore. I think it's more important to have the the passion to try to figure it out and just realize that we have these little virtual assistants now that can help try to push you in the in the right direction. And just an example I'll give quickly is my dryer broke. Like it's it's turning, but there's no heat coming out. And I literally just walked down with the phone. I took a picture of the dryer. I said, "What dryer is this?" And it knew it. And I just said I said, "It's spinning around, but it's not heat coming out and just gave me a list of I don't know how to fix a dryer, but it gave me like five things to do to try and I'm going to go after this podcast and try to do it. And I I'm approaching this the same way where I don't know what I don't know yet, but I know that if I hit a brick wall, I'll first try >> LMS. I also have Dave on Slack, which I think is a big advantage, but I don't need to bug. You don't need that anymore because with these things you can kind of just get get pushed around I think enough to if you have the passion I think you can make it through it.

39:57 >> Yeah. And and your passion is obviously because you see some potential you see a lot of potential for edge. [snorts] So that's really that's the driving force and what's fun about this is you see that there's this whole green field that you never been in and if you can figure that out there's potentially a lot more edge that you could create for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, and some encouragement for those people in case there are people like me who are exclusively, you know, swing traders in I do well, I have my day trading systems now, but I want to get further into it is just the um the fact that I I don't feel good about having access to a bunch of margin that I'm not currently using or prop firms or, you know, different ways to to access buying power. So, if you are there and you've got maybe you're in real test right now and you've got some trend following systems and they're doing well for you and you're and you're making money, congratulations. But I would just take a look at it and say, well, during the trading day, how much money is your broker giving you that you're not doing anything with? So, uh I think there's too much, and this is where I'll pick on Dave a bit. I think there's too much of a uh one or the other, right? And I think people should start looking at a little bit of the whole why not both.

41:13 Why not, right? Have holdings that exist overnight and and benefit of the upward trend of the market and all that and then dip into margin, the extra buying power your broker gives you and and kind of day trade. So again, if there's somebody who has been uh held back the way I think I was, I'll probably regret being held back by it for too long. Um and just say screw it, let's just dive into it and see what happens.

41:38 >> Yeah. Yeah. I I love that approach because Yeah. I mean, unused buying power is uh capacity that you have that you're not using. So, >> yeah, >> it's just logical to optimize the way you're the way you're using that. And um yeah, I like the approach you're taking. >> Awesome. Well, again, this one was a bit of a rant, I think, because we were just kind of going through personal experience. But again, if you like it, if you want us to dive a little deeper into this, I still have more stuff that I could I could certainly talk about.

42:10 So, just let us know in the comments. We like to always look at them and read them. And as always, I'm Michael Nos >> and I'm Dave May. Talk to you next week on Line Your Own Pockets.