My Soviet Refugee Parents Spotted the Woke Red Flags - Katherine Brodsky

0:01 So, I was born in the Soviet Union and the part that is currently Ukraine and hopefully stays that way. And my family, so my parents are you know, from that background and you know, I was young when I when we left. So I I wasn't as affected by it, but my parents were. In fact, one of their key reasons for leaving leaving was because they wanted me to have an actual future.

0:31 And for them you know, they were recognizing a lot of the patterns of what we were seeing culturally in terms of how speech was being silenced. In the Soviet Union, you know, everyone's equal, but some animals are more equal than others as they say. Right. And it's like well, you can say anything you want except you can't say as long as it's the approved narrative, right? And in there, you know, you had the threat both from the government and individuals. So, you know, people did disappear in black cars in the middle of the night never to be heard from again for their speech. There had to be a lot of subversion to say certain things that people wanted to say. Artists had to be extra creative. And in terms of you know, individuals, you never knew who who you could trust. Because you say the wrong thing to somebody who's the wrong person and that's it. You're ruined. And it was this really tense environment that they grew up in. And they were also very brainwashed. You know, they had to take uh atheism classes, communism classes. Like every every all these things were actually taught.

1:47 Um and enforced essentially both socially and governmentally. And my parents when they were seeing some of these trends in North America, honestly, I dismissed it. You know, the old folks. Yeah, no, no. Dig into that. So, what were your parents saying and how did you feel when you heard it? Like what can give me put put us in that moment of your parents being like this is looking a little too much like 1960s Ukraine. >> Yeah, yeah. It was it was constant. Um for them it was you know, the kinds of words that you had to use, the sort of political correctness, but also the um everyone had to speak a sort of sort of the same language. In schools, you're sort of taught um things a certain way and challenging that could get you in trouble.

2:46 Now, I was always a little bit of a I will say I'm even though I'm a people pleaser, I'm also contrarian. Uh So, I'm not I'm not that great with authority. Interesting interesting combo. Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm polite. I'm not going to like be an for the sake of it, but if I sort of disagree or see see little chinks in arguments, like I always had a very independent mind and I also think that came from my parents. I think because they were so distrustful of the system and while I was probably more trustful, I think their nagging way of thinking um I inherited that in some ways. You know, I was always like looking for the contrarian view in something.

3:35 But you know, it doesn't mean I always disagree with things. I don't believe in being contrarian for the sake of it. But I wasn't just taking things at surface level. You know, I I'm I am [clears throat] a little bit allergic to crowd kind of displays of emotion or like saying catchphrases, things like that. It's just that never kind of sat with me, I guess. And with my parents, you know, because they were always so uh judgy of like the narratives and how things were framed in news and what politicians said.

4:16 I think there is like you know, a feeling of like oh, they're just overreacting and I think also feeling of like this can't happen here. So, this is just their fears from the Soviet Union. Yes, some there might be some similarities, but this could never happen here. This is a open free society, you know, capitalist socialist, I guess. Um which is seems like contradictory things, but I think we >> economy with a fairly large government, but not what we we have private markets, we have private property, so we're Yeah, and and it so didn't And and what I've later realized and also looking at history, I mean, it doesn't take a lot of people to think a certain way and very few it doesn't take a lot of people to have a revolution and to change things. Yeah. All it takes is very radical individuals and we see that in a lot of different historical events. It's it's everyone else being afraid to actually speak up when they see something that they doesn't quite sit right with them. And I think a lot of times people see something they have a sense that maybe this is not quite right, but they're not maybe sure and they want to be nice and and this is where you know, there's certain things that we could say in the past and nobody would call you a racist for it because it's not coming from a place that's racist.

5:47 But now it's like well, if you say that you you're not allowed. So, something like as an example of that, you know, I I very harshly judge cultures that um don't give equal rights to say women. And stone women and make them wear head coverings. That doesn't mean I dislike everyone from that culture or that I hate um everyone, but but it's it's just that but that is a valid criticism and everyone should frankly share that criticism.

6:23 >> It does speak to this question. This is about your book and your story is fundamentally about how do we how do we preserve open dialogue, right? How do we not have Maoism and and self-censorship and and um struggle sessions in our culture. Mhm. And be more and be tolerant and not let extremes hold us captive. Which is is think that's like a fair >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> Sort of portrayal of what you're trying to do?

6:54 >> Yeah. Um And I think the challenge I have and I don't have an answer and I'm just curious is if there is does that what is the limit to that tolerance? Where do we where should a tolerant society a small L classical liberal society draw the line and say Nope. You are fifth column. See, I think >> be here.

7:25 You can't be part of this. wanting to take away those personal liberties. And Islamism does want to do that, right? It's one thing when people are like we're going to just practice certain things ourselves. Um versus like no, we we want this to be the system under which your country runs. And I and I think in terms of immigration by the way, like I I I think countries have the right to decide for themselves what kind of immigrants they want to take. It might be the brain drain thing. Sucks for those other countries, but like I get it, right?

8:01 Like you want highly skilled or talented people to come and that's you know, ultimately you're getting immigrants for the most part to improve your country in some way to benefit the country. Sometimes you take refugees because those are you know, extreme conditions. They're not usually all military age men by the way, refugees. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. >> always like oh, I'm a refugee. It's No, and and I I remember I watched a really good lecture about for a woman with a woman who who works on the whole refugee thing and she said well, what's happening? And I think this was a really good way of framing it. I think that's what's happening. Is that the refugees aren't accepted based on actual need.

8:44 The system is really broken. So, there's a lot of people coming in who don't haven't been properly vetted also don't necessarily have the need and that's why you're getting these military age men as opposed to you know, people who are you know, maybe escaping tyranny. Maybe they said the wrong thing or they're gay or whatever, right? They're not being properly classified. Like third generation people are also typically not like you can't inherit your refugee status as a child. Yes.

9:13 >> or as a grandchild. That's weird. Like I'm a refugee and so is my grandfather. It's like what? >> [laughter] >> See, if I say that I get called an evil whatever, but um >> But it's I mean, like it's not it's something else. >> It's it is something else. I I I agree with that. I don't really understand that. Um it's it's because it's also not being applied equally. If it was, make discuss it and debate it, but it's not.

9:39 Only one group of people. But I think that in general like you know, I know Hungary has a pretty restrictive immigration policy. They want to maintain their culture, right? Um, I prefer I like living in a country that's got more diversity, personally. Yeah, me too. [clears throat] I also think these countries have the Yeah, exactly. [laughter] Which is a very Yeah, yeah. >> special. Oh, right, right, you're Canadian. So, you're getting used to a new kind of communism then.

10:15 >> [laughter] >> I am. Well, you and Gad Saad can come to America to escape the eventual pogroms there, I'm sorry to say. Well, I was I was I was very willing to be an American patriot. Now, I'm like I I like a lot about Canada. I also there's a lot to criticize there, too. Uh, I also like a lot about America and there's a lot to criticize, too. But, I spend a lot of time in the US and um, I there's a lot that I really admire about it and some things I don't. Um, but when it comes to um, what were we talking about?

10:52 Well, it's just I think um, you know, Oh, immigration. Yeah, and and the and the limits to tolerance. I think the limits to tolerance is is is >> I don't think you should take I don't think you should take people who don't share your values inherently. I so, for example, when my family came to North America, the reason that we wanted to is because we share those values. We were pursuing We're pursuing the freedoms, the you know, the so-called American or Canadian dream, like, you know, work hard, prosper kind of thing. Not necessarily be a millionaire, but just like, you know, you can have a decent life. And I think that's still true if you if you have some skill, talent, you know, and and work hard, you you can have a decent life.

11:35 Um, and and you're not restricted based on your you know, when we were in the Soviet Union, you know, that thing about everyone being equal was not true. Uh, and being Jewish, you know, this was in terms of systemic discrimination, that way like you literally had it on your your your birth certificate that you're Jewish, you know, you were the other and you couldn't go to you know, medical school. Some people got to go to medical schools cuz you know, we have a lot of Jewish doctors, but um, it's because you know, bribes or people bribe to change things on their their birth certificate, things like that. There were certain areas that everyone knew they were just not open to Jews and my parents didn't want me to to live like that. Um, and so I think it's important that the people you bring into your country align with your values. I don't care about somebody's skin color or race, but I do care about value. And I think that's where and I think it's okay also to for some countries to preserve cultures like like Japan. I really like Japan is not a perfect country. It has a lot of issues and we kind of whitewash it a lot, but it's a cool country to visit and it has a very clear Japanese culture.

12:54 And I think they have the right to like restrict immigration, make it slow and limited to maintain that if that's what the people want. And I also think that America or Canada can choose to have more immigration policies that maybe are a little bit more open and generous. But, I think we should be focusing on bringing people who have shared values and if somebody's coming to the West and they hate the West, then I don't think they should be coming.

13:23 Which I don't understand why you would want to go to the West in the first place if you don't share the values of the West. I I am very divided on this um, in the sense that I'm very broadly pro-immigration. I I I my my my default position is fairly radically libertarian in general. Um, but I think there's two I totally agree with you. And I also think we don't even go far enough in thinking about that sometimes in the sense that like well, all the institutions that you're talking about at the start of our conversation, um, they produce people that hate the West.

14:04 You know, the 1619 project is a is an act of hatred of the of the country from my perspective. I think very quite explicitly. It's It's also been basically called bunk history by the leading American historians including people like Gordon Wood who've been on the show who are just like, this is just nonsense. But, it's nonsense through a particular worldview that I think is empirically false that that but that is very broadly held in the kinds of institutions that have been corrupted by woke stuff.

14:37 And that is there's something rotten about the kind about the sort of Western and this used to I would say Western liberalism as in like individual liberty liberalism and meritocracy and it's somehow uniquely white supremacist and racist and and and all the all the isms, all the all the like thought terminating cliches that you know, we should all basically be inoculated to and laugh at when people throw them at us.

15:09 Mhm. But, this is stuff that is still right now to this day even here in 2025, the dominant dialogue and discourse in most of academia and it bleeds out into a lot of other areas. And it's like a it's an act of self-hatred. It's like, no, we need to the the issue is always the revolution. And so I the thing that's weird in the American [snorts] context for me is unlike Europe, you know, like our immigrants are like Mexicans that are coming here and want to work.

15:40 >> [clears throat] >> Like Catholic Mexicans who want to work. I'm more worried about the the graduates of Columbia who hate the country and want to burn it to the ground and vote for some Islamo-communist for mayor. >> What do you think is behind that? Um, cuz I agree with you there is a tendency to be like to hate America, right? America's bad, everything America is even when you compare it I mean, other countries don't have that same level of self-loathing.

16:07 And yes, America has some bad things in its history, 100%. [laughter] Um, but you know, we've we North Americans, we've recovered largely from that. I think it's one of the freer countries, the most tolerant countries. Um, It is the country in which every one of the things I'm sorry to interrupt, but it is the country and I we can loop Canada in for North America, but we are we the West more broadly though, but but especially the United States. All the things that this ideology claims to care about, we're number one in, right?

16:45 Yeah. In terms of the planet. Oh, you want broad plural rights to groups and and protection of minorities, you want equality for women in law, you want Like we we did it all. Oh, how about how about like the West is the culture that like radically sought to abolish slavery. We did that. We we the West. >> What's behind So, what do you think is really behind that that level of hate? Like is that something we're importing or I mean, I I do think there is some foreign interference. Um, I mean, there is lots of evidence for that. Um, different countries, you know, um, I guess I won't name them all, but um, but there is definitely evidence.

17:26 But, it's something Yes. Uh, but there's also something about it that um, you know, what they do is they they they usually amplify riffs that are already there. So, how do you think they got in there in the first place? Um, good question. I think that um, I think that sort of communism and I'm saying that I know it's like that that sort of drive towards the collective um, mindset is kind of built into all of us to some extent, you know, the family unit is communistic. We don't write property contracts among family, generally speaking. Sometimes they're actually useful, but generally speaking we don't do that.

18:17 And so there is an intuition about um, and and some of us are more sensitive to this than others, but there's we have intuitions about oppression, about boundaries, about um, about what's fair. And they don't tend to scale great. So, I think there's a honest center of gravity one can hold that when you hear communistic ideas and I'm lumping that all broadly together. That's my inclination. But, it's all basically the same stuff to me. It's this >> But, it's also like it's more than communist cuz a lot of countries will tend to worse communism, but it's that level of self-hate and blaming and like America is so bad that I do think is a bit unique in the US.

19:09 >> It is. It really is. And and and I mean that and I say this to I've said this to my son over the years and he and he was like, Dad, it's not all communist. You sound like a grumpy old man. As he's aging and reading more, he's like, Dad, you're kind of right. You know, you just scratch the surface. Oh, they scratch the surface on the history of queer theory and literally everybody calls themself a Marxist. You scratch the surface and read any of the people at critical race theory, they're all Marxists. I mean, like they say it. They say it themselves. I guess this is a James Lindsay conversation cuz he's like But, I mean, it's I but I think it's that's those that's a statement of fact. You go back to the 1950s, 60s radicalism, they're Marxist. Now, what is it? Well, I'm I'm trying to be charitable actually cuz I think there's actually just a fundamental core and that core is a desire.

19:59 There's two flavors of it from my perspective. One is is rank nihilism, which is there's no such thing as good and evil. I don't know what get mine. The world is only power. I think postmodernism's all that. There's just it's just a nihilistic view that there is no such thing as goodness. So, take what you can get. The world's a power game. Grab the ring of power. Then I think there's a more benign but just as demonic in its outcomes version, which is sharing is caring and why can't everything be sharing and caring and you know, I'm off-put by accumulation and that triggers some tribal some tribal old-school circuitry. So, I don't like that and I you should tax away Jeff Bezos and Elon's money and give it to the poor and that makes me a good person. You're not taking it from me. So, I it's a luxury belief. But, I'm still coming from a place of caring and so that's I think I think those are like these intuitions that get then get hijacked by a class of intellectuals and activists.

21:01 And I think the I think it's it's it's perfect it's perfect like mutant baby is um queers for Palestine. And that's And it's like it seems like it's irrelevant except ask all these kids, they all want communism. If you like this clip, you should check out the full video and all the other great content we've got at Dad Saves America. So, be sure to hit the like button, subscribe, and ring that bell so you won't miss our new stuff as it drops each week.

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