Transcript
0:09 and welcome back to another episode of on coaching with myself Steve Magnus and my good buddy John Marcus John we are through another championship season indors whether that's NCAA or you know professional yep and we're on to the Big Show Outdoors so and this is episode 50 5 Z we've been doing this for over just over two years dang are we that old yet yeah
0:42 so thank you to the longtime listeners new listeners if you're just joining us or if you've been joining us for two straight years there thank you hey if anyone is still listening from episode one please tweet at us we'll yeah tweet at us I want who are our OG listeners I want to know if you hear this if you listen to episode one in January like late January 2015 to now tweet at us CU you know what maybe we'll send you
1:09 something real nice if been OG or as they say in the gangster rap world my day one boys girl man you are you're you're down with everything I just came back from the dir Southwest man I've been in Albuquerque Phoenix so you know what shout out shout out to the people in the hood keeping it real there yo do do you remember when how how this podcast started I do I believe we were in fville Arkansas of all places
1:42 during the NCA Regional West Regional prelim or whatever that meat's called I don't know the meat where all you can do is screw up meat and we were like you know what we should record our conver weekly conversation that we'd have with each other where we' do what we do now call each other up and like man struggling with this struggling with this I don't know what I'm doing do you know what you're doing well maybe how
2:05 about this for you what does science say what does philosophy say okay thanks you you got to love how it's and that's the truth and while we're reminiscing it's just funny to look back and see how far we've come or maybe not how far we've come but to see the origins of something that just starts out as a conversation and molds into these you know weekly by weekly Talks Of Us kind of rambling on these topics and really you
2:36 know it it's been a way to clarify thinking and if I could suggest anything for any of you guys still listening it's fine someone who you can just talk things through with because it's it's these conversations you guys wouldn't believe that after John and I finish these that I I go back in my notebook and I'm like remember this like implement this like change this yeah same and you know it's it's just through conversations I have old saying like coaching comes from
3:08 conversations because a lot of times you just we just kind of mindlessly do what we've always done in what we've been taught to do without really putting that deep consideration to it and conversations bring out those assumptions that we sometimes Overlook true and context is everything and I think we get sometimes caught on a coaching Island because it's a competitive Endeavor and I have the secret recipe you have the secret recipe I'm trying to
3:39 beat you you know and I I got to give a shout out to you know two two people and or I guess two people one in one organization or one person one organization is in the Portland area a coach Thor Espen who works at Wilsonville high school has tooken upon himself to create a monthly coaching social where all the High School coaches and even college coaches are invited as well get together and just talk shop just you know over some beers some
4:05 coffee whatever once a month he sends out an email and says hey guys let's get together and he's had you know a very regular attendance and I think everyone's gotten better from that experience just the dialogue and then two shout out to Altus down in Phoenix where I just came back from The Apprentice coach program and seeing you know how they're coaching in the context seeing practice day in and day out being at track practice seeing how you know
4:31 executing programming how they're dealing with problems how they're communicating with athletes how they're communicating with each other and how they are applying worldclass principles with these athletes whether they are Olympic medalists or you know people who are trying to get to the next step or next level was very refreshing to see because I definitely had some reservations or some you know Curiosities based on isolated things I saw in the social media ether but but it doesn't translate unless you're there in
5:01 person seeing in context and you know the the value of that experience and here I you know trying to provide this this hype for Altus is you know what well intended is you seeing again that context and making and having it be open-ended and you being afforded the opportunity to make the most of it there's no certification there's no credential it is a good chunk of change for the week but it's well spent if you try to maximize your return in your
5:28 investment and you're there in inquiring asking questions and really trying to get the most out of it I equate it to you get the most value out of it like you would a PhD seminar if you're coming with a little bit of experience trying to say okay let me see what's being applied here be very inquisitive and respectful and try to have a super open mind and not come with any judgments and then see okay what principles am I
5:54 applying what could I apply what do I still have reservations about and just the you know the staff there was very open to ask answer a lot of questions I had a lot of questions but that to me is the value of that type of experience is the context of it because you got to see practice for five days a week and then you got to go in and talk shop and that's you know Steve and I
6:14 always say it's like there we we have these coaches clinics or conferences where all the coaches get together in isolation give PowerPoints or you know shoot the over a cup of coffee or some beers at night and that provides a little bit of value for sure but I you know I took a lot of value from see seeing coaches coaching and that to me is a really juicy opportunity that Steve and I have been talking about Offline
6:37 that we might have more information about in the coming weeks so keep your ears peeled man look at you you're just teasing the you're you're like a real radio H I'm giving the people what they want you're just teasing man you're a you're a pro at this here I am Amateur hour over here yes amateur and you're the one who has two books man I gotta get my book out I I can write they never said I could talk
7:04 that's the key it's true everyone has different talents you know that's that's why that's why you're on this one to carry the load so see I I I just have you here to carry the load and my talking and then I have Brad here to carry the load in my writing and then I just I sit back and I don't do anything leg on a DMR like one lap that's easy all right I got this guy who's around
7:25 the 12 to start me off and I got this good anchor for the M was going to carry Lo exactly exactly oh man all right well on to our 50th topic coaching the person and not coaching the work so what what does that mean why don't you start off and give us your your thoughts and then I'll tell you what I think about
7:56 it so you know the JZ of this Epiphany that I had that I tweeted out the other night was this question of are you coaching the work or are you coaching the person and this was coming off of an intersection of many things the USA indoor Champs and alquerque my time at alus and a really poignant you know conversation with a mentor and friend Veron gambetta who is you know a fan and regular guest on this
8:25 podcast so the Confluence of all those factors May me realize wait we spend so much time in our community talking about programming splits the work these numbers like these are the main things that matter but what ends up happening is we get to a championship like at usas or ncas and even though these people have amazing numbers behind them let's say for example and again this is no
8:55 trolling and no hate you know Ezra chz and the men's mile the Texas A&M gal in the women's 800 they set the Collegiate record the fastest collegians ever indoors and yet neither of them won their Marquee event and so it's not because of bad coaching because they have amazing coaches amazing programming amazing you know facilities and resources amazing everything but it's about being prepared for the unpredictable the mental resiliency the
9:26 moment when you need that mental resiliency the most and sometimes we take this like oh it's a hands down azra T just ran 352 he's going to win by a mile you know in the mile race but and time and time again that doesn't happen and how many athletes do you have as a a coach or if you as an athlete you're so well prepared I've been doing the best workouts of my life the most intensity density consistently
9:48 with no hiccups I'm ready to go everything is showing me I'm ready to rock and roll PRS up the ying-yang you know amazing workouts and I've had this happen to me so many times now and then we get to that big Championship meet or that big test and they fall flat on their face and you throw your hands up in the air as a coach and you're like what the heck I didn't see that coming out of left field and I've had the
10:13 inverse happen where it's like man they're running like crap in practice they're not running a whole lot of they're not able to do a lot of work we're managing this injury you know and then all of a sudden they get to that big race and they game up like a son of a gun and all of a sudden it's like whoa I TR didn't see that one coming so we spend all this time creating programming and arguing about periodization are you
10:34 going to do block periodization wave periodization mesocycles microcycles Etc but we forget to coach the person for The Crucible of the moments that they're coming to grips with and that I think is the soft side the soft science where there's not a lot of like definitive numbers behind and you don't get that comfort to be like oh well I've done this many reps at this many Paces or I've done this much volume or everything's gone to my plan but my
11:06 favorite quote that came to mind when thinking about all this is you know we make plans and God laughs and so really what we're trying to do is figure out how to create that mental aptitude and resiliency in that moment and I'll give a quick aside here you know it's I was at alus and I was watching Jasmine Todd the female spinner who made might know from Oregon she was doing these what they're called wicked drills was
11:33 essentially sprinting drills over very small Heros to work on like stabbing the ground and shin angles and foot placement Etc and they're placed at certain intervals and so she starts her Wicked drill and you know Shin angles and force application is very important for sprinters but she blunders the first three but then she rallies and she rallies in a way and gets gets right back on course and is able to execute the rest of the drill to Perfection for
12:04 her or to very you know high standards for her and it looks very smooth but the first three steps were just complete so she goes over to Dan path who is kind of like you know coach of metus and just kind of coaching everyone as he sees and Dan talks to her you know because a remain coach to McMillan's like go see Dan and Dan's like hey great job and she's like what do you mean I I
12:26 I screwed up rurally on the first three and he well life it's not a Hollywood movie it's not a Disney fairy tale it's not perfect it's not cultured it's how you play chess that matters and when your queen gets taken in the first five moves you can still win the game if you want and I and to me that was like the most valuable thing I got out of that whole week was like boom right there she
12:47 showed an executed mental resiliency she goofed up the numbers would say coaching the work would say you should stop the drill CU you messed up on the first three steps but you might as a sprinter mess up out the block box in your first three steps in your start as a distance runers you might get boxed in and be like oh my God I got boxed in what am I going to do you know so understanding
13:07 like that was a teachable and coachable moment for the person to say hey you did a really good job recuperating rebounding to me clarified and crystalized everything we're we're doing or should be doing as coaches but if you're just sitting here saying well if you're trying to run five minutes for a mile as a female or a male or whatever and all of a sudden your second laps of 7 seven and you're screwed and then all
13:30 of a sudden your race is going to go backwards and then you know then you get off course and you run 510 because you're freaked out but even though all the work you've done is show you're capable of running 455 or 450 that is a mental failing not a physical failing and so a lot of times we do really really really good work in physical preparation and there's so much information and books and knowledge and you know programs and plans out there
13:57 but that soft side that mental side is not something you need to leave to the psychologist it's not something you Le to the sports performance doc you as a coach need to take responsibility and make sure you're preparing your athletes to be resilient in that critical moment because they will face it well I'll take it a step for a step further and say that each workout shouldn't just have a physical goal but it should have a a
14:20 mental goal and what I mean by that is when you're programming is is you have to consider like the psychological aspect of the workout is it what kind of position is it is the workout putting them in and what kind of coping mechanism for pain effort fatigue all of that are you trying to create in in that are you working on your ability to focus under fatigue are you're working on your ability to quickly recover mentally and
14:51 move on to the next thing if an interval goes bad are you working on you know even fading hard during a work out and having to rebound and come back like there has to be some sort of mental Target towards it and I think that that's one aspect of it and I think the other is when you look at coaching people is as a coach like what what the athlete shows you matters like your job the way I see it
15:22 in creating and designing workouts is you're essentially predicting what you think will happen yes and then and then when your athlete does it you're comparing your prediction to what actually happens but then your job as a coach is to like manipulate and adjust things to make sure that the mismatch there is either no mismatch or to correct for the mismatch in ways that allow for you to adapt in the right direction and I think I think that on
15:54 the Fly coaching that like adjusting is is a lost art it's it's almost become a a thing where if you adjust all the sudden you know oh my gosh it must be wrong right if I'm making adjustments the workout must be going poorly or athletes will say oh you're adjusting from 10 quarters at this to now 8 quarters plus these
16:24 200s like I must be failing this workout and all of a sudden they freak out and I think it's more of like a cultural thing when you're look at coaching is we have to we have to create an environment that allows for adjustments based on coaching the person and understanding their psychology and understanding how hard we need to push them in that moment and when the rains need to be let loose and when we need to pull them back and I
16:52 think a lot of times that that culture is almost beaten out of us as coaches it's here's the workout written on the chalk board or the on the paper and if we don't do this we have failed and in football they call it the audible and I think God I read somewhere and don't quote me on this it might have been like BS Report or something you know three four years ago like Payton Manning and Tom bring Tom Brady called the most
17:19 audibles of any quarterback in the NFL for That season or something and you know those are two of the greats you know love them or hate them right right and the the ability to call the audible and I do it all the time I did it today in a workout you know like here's what's on paper you know I had a two a k breakdown with a Myer I coach a Mexican you know Myer Dan Herrera it was 1 by a
17:43 k at 3K Pace 500 300 200 breakdown mile Pace 800 Pace fast you know one 1 by a k 3K Pace another mile breakdown and then it was supposed to be 2 by a k again at 3K pace and then finish up with some 450s fast when you're retired and you know a lot of things happened like he had a really big session the week before you know you know great session for him it was a what I call a 400 300 Cascade
18:14 workout where it was 400 400 400 300 for the first set at you know the 400's at Mile Pace the 300 at 800 Pace then 400 400 300 300 the two quarters at Mile Pace two quarters at 300 pce then one quarter and then 300 300 300 same deal mile pace and then 800 Pace that's tough session you know tough session I mean he got good rest too like three to four minutes CU I want it was about the quality of
18:41 work it was intensity day not density day but that's a tough Cascade to do and he nailed it flying colors man like I was like whoa good for you dude and I wasn't even there I was you know an Albuquerque coaching at the N USA championships like with a couple you know middle distance gals and then he was able to you know couple it with a like nice roll on workout you know get some lactate Dynamics going 5 you know
19:08 500 met at 3K pce 100 meter jog doing series of that and then we did you know a long run with some true fart looks in the long run and I mean it was this what I call medium dig cycle like a lot of density of work and intensity of work in a condensed you know period of time plus we had spring forward so we lost an hour of sleep a lot of things happened and I mean we took very judicious rest
19:34 but today it was he was at the track and it was like all right man you're looking good it's hard I get it you it's supposed to be hard but this is supposed to be a moderate mixed Pace session but after you know what I I sometimes time is how much time the athletes taking on their hands and knees to catch their breath after they get in that anerobic zone and he was starting to you know
19:56 take 30 seconds and soad which normal for him is about 10 to like 18 seconds you know and so that me told me like he's on his hands his knees trying to catch his breath I know a lot of coaches are like oh don't do that don't do that but that is a really key observation that you can have as a coach and I actually timed that more than I timed the interval what he was racing let me
20:18 jump in because I think this is a very important message is things like putting your hands on your knees you know even falling to the ground or just walking around with hands on hips or hands overhead or just body language shrugging like those are all signals right and I I I think what people and coaches a lot of times Miss is you know you hear the hands on your knees there's no air down there you know stand up well
20:48 if if you know like the physiology of of why that H like why you need to step back and ask why does every single person after a hard anerobic like have the tendency to want to do that and it's it's their body saying like oh crap like we're fatigued like let's get the heart down lower so it doesn't have to pump Against Gravity right but that's a signal that's that's not something you coach out that's a okay like this is
21:18 telling me something that is feedback to understand and I think a lot of times because we we live in this like Macho fake toughness era which I could go on for days about it's like don't show weakness but it it's not weakness it's feedback for you as a coach and I think that's absolutely brilliant to time those because again that tells you more about fatigue and effort than the split does or than heart rate or whatever does
21:49 because it gives you direct like subconscious almost feedback because it's an instantaneous just ingrained response to oh crap CP that was tired I can't breathe hands on knee and the longer they're on there the harder you know they just dug yep yeah and it's I you know because I'm observant of that you know kpi or that you know quality and I'm hyper observant of it I understand his Tendencies and so it's like oh man
22:20 he's tough he's tired so then the coaching moment was after and that was after the you know the final 532 break down of the workout and so I said look you've had a great session you've had a great week of training the week before like you're on some Next Level right now you can either do one of two things cuz I'm you're not finishing the session because that just be feudal this isn't a toughness exercise it's either
22:46 we cut it now and you're good or if you want you can run a 1 and 1 time 1K to the best that you can run it right now and all I want is your best I'm not even give you a time not going to call splits and take the watch away and you can run it to the best that you can run it in this fatigue state that will help you then be more confident to run your best
23:10 when you are fatigued in a race unexpectedly for a mile or if you travel overseas and you're like I just feel crappy instead of being like I have and whatever my level of success is or my level of preconceived good is and then being so like numbers oriented and today I was like just run your best for right now and if you're up to that challenge take it and if you're not don't because you know there's no point to take this
23:35 challenge if you're not up to it and you don't want to ex if you're not curious to explore and see you know and he took it like he put on his spikes he was changed out of flats he's like all right I'm rolling I said great and it didn't call any splits and he was hitting about you know 344 to 343 for his KS before that and there was a very Stern headwind on the back straightaway
23:58 and the guy ran 337 like by himself like with high school kids walking across the track because of his lunch hour you know I mean but he was because I framed it in the give me your best or here's a opportunity to be curious about seeing what your best is get after it and had I been like oh well you got to run the rest of the workout and we get to these 150s and he's goingon to do it because he's a
24:22 lead athlete and he trusts me and he's you know he's he's going to oblige if I say we have to do it like that but I made that critical distinction I was it's just not worth wasting that bullet because of everything that preceded the all the work he did that preceded today and then where we want him to springboard and be ready to get after in the next couple weeks of preparation before he starts racing again and that as a coach is knowing the
24:46 person because you know I know his by language I know him I know the language I'm using and I also know the language I'm using to counterbalance or to you know kind of just extinguish his own language about what he thinks he needs to do to be good to be an international competitor right and I I think that's the part that a lot of people Miss is that like you have to know you almost have to like to degree
25:17 get in athletes heads like understand what they're thinking understand the like compensation points the coping mechanisms the internal voice that they give themselves and like predict that as coaches to understand like hey if I cut this workout short what will you know this person think if I make this adjustment what will this person think and as a coach you're like predicting how that will go for each one and then you're trying to guide him by the by how
25:50 you wrap it and how you frame it into the into the place you want them to go with it right into the place you want them to get and and versus you know the the negative spot where you where you don't want them to go and I think that that's a large portion of knowing your athletes and getting to know your athletes and understanding what their fears are and where their anxiety comes from and these things and how to Grapple with that and
26:20 hold it because I know you know for example I've had really good athletes in the past where if I say where if I make the adjustment and say okay like cut it we're done that causes a freakout moment right right MH so you don't do that right yeah no you don't do that and and you know to give you an example I mean you could we could be going from doing a tempo run and being like o this
26:53 is not their day to do a tempo run like there's I can't Salvage this this is not worth it we're just getting in a hole so what do we do okay tempo run we're not going to just go rest and get it in because this person will freak out and I need to frame this correctly all right let's go do some short Sprints up a hill and get some Excel work which works an entirely different system nervous system so
27:18 hopefully they're okay with it and they feel like okay I'm getting in work even though it's not you know what was prescribed it's work and they walk away feeling pretty good about it right and I think it's like knowing what what where the parameters are to adjust with that each athlete is something very Central and crucial to know and then your job as a coach is to slowly over time like adjust those to more normal and normal and and resilient
27:51 patterns of thought so that you know knowing in a year or two this athlete is is no longer thinking oh my gosh like we just cut a workout he's thinking he or she is thinking okay like we're adjusting that's fine this is what I need right now today and they have no problem with the adjustment and with that neurotic type athlete who who's that eight type person who needs to do that work because the pattern of training or the training plan
28:19 says you have to do it when you call those audibles you have to remind them that you are enrolled on their journey and they've enrolled you to be on their Journey with them and what I mean by enrollment is that you are there with their best interest at heart and you're there to give critical feedback and very honest naked critique and be blunt and so if you're going to call that allall be like look you've enrolled me to help
28:47 you to get from where you are now to this level of Competency over there and I always remind athletes because what happens is when you know you go through a bad patch of racing or a bad patch of training things don't you know aren't going to script or plan it's like look you're a different animal man what got you here is not going to get you there because you see oh well this worked for me in college when I had my breakout
29:10 year or this worked for me in high school when I had so I'm just going to copy that and do that exact training plan again because that I know that worked and it's like well you didn't know that worked when you did it exactly but it did work yes but you might there might have been a Confluence of other things you know social you know just the environment you're in all these are things so reestablishing that like look
29:36 am I still enrolled on your journey do you still trust me and the answer to those are yes from the athlete like look all right I'm calling the audible I'm telling you we need to do this now today because I want to see you do better than you think you can do and I think this is going to be something that's going to get you to that and sometimes it's a complete rest day it's and I've done
29:57 that I cut people I say oh you look bad and you're not you're not bad you just look bad today oh yeah coach you know actually go home take a nap today training is a nap and like are you sure I go yes because if you're coaching the work when you miss the work that means you miss the paycheck and it's this mentality of I need to show up every day to get my hourly wage but training is not an
30:23 hourly type Endeavor it's a salary Endeavor and so some days you work a lot and you do you work overtime you're there for you know 15 miles a lift session and all this and some days it's like yep 30 minutes that's it take a nap are you sure yep today is a light load man so when we shift from this hourly you know earning mindset to the salary earning mindset then we realize okay it's not about every single day but
30:52 the combination of dayto day and the ab and flow from day to day and they're going to be long hard days don't don't give me wrong you got to put in the hard yards but there's going to be days where it's like we're going to chill out total regeneration day reboot day hang out like I've told athletes like here's here's your training today go see a funny movie and take a three-hour nap yeah and you know I think the thing is
31:14 that you made a good point about like critique there and I think one of the things as a coach is you have to make an environment where athletes accept critique mhm right and get them out of what what I like to call is that defensive mode and everybody knows when people are in defensive mode right like you have a argument with like your boyfriend girlfriend spouse whatever and you could and it doesn't matter what you say because what you have said at this
31:45 point has put them in defensive mode where they are no longer accepting like they're no longer receptive to anything you say so it doesn't matter and the same thing thing happens in in sport right if we put them in a mode or if they're in that defensive mode because of a workout whatever we say does not matter so our job as coaches is to make sure that we don't put athletes into that defensive
32:16 mode and I've seen you know I wrote wrote about this on my blog actually this week is how to be receptive of criticism and what to say post race or post-workout because you know one of the things I like to sometimes secretly watch is athletes coming off the track from a race and you can tell if it was good or bad and see what the coaches do cuz some some coaches will immediately jump in there and you know say hey
32:47 you needed to do this this and this and this and you can almost see it in the athletes eyes they just shut off right and it's not the right time for the debrief exactly no that's a put your arm over the shoulder hey kid I love you to death good job exactly and nothing goes through and you know one of the coaches forgive me I I'm bad with names right now but messaged me on Facebook and said hey like I have I know
33:16 one of my friends actually who coaches women gives a tape recorder to the women like after they race and says hey record your thoughts I'm going to listen to them tomorrow like just free thought free thought it after this and I thought that was like a brilliant way to get like this emotional like debrief for the athlete without like the pressure of the coach there but I think that I I think that you know that's one of these spots
33:46 that we sometimes underestimate is like how do you take criticism how do you give it as a coach and what is the timing of it because there's some real really cool studies to bring in you know a little bit of science since that's apparently what I do that that if it's taken as a negative you have a decrease in testosterone right and an increase in cortisol if criticism is taken as a positive you have an increase in
34:17 testosterone decrease in cortisol so you're actually impacting things on a biochemical hormonal level which is fascinating right but it makes sense so I think that's one of the things is where you know when you're coaching people when you're coaching the person and not coaching the work as you framed it like when you're coaching the person and see them as a human being and not just like oh you're this just this person who was supposed to run 405 for
34:45 the mile and you ran 410 so I'm going to correct you and tell you why you didn't run 405 in this moment as soon as I can because I'm going to use this to vent my own emotional feelings then then you're failing as a coach without a doubt athletes are people not robots and yet we we we tend to think you know because someone might have done some Bravo performance somewhere ran this Stellar mark this record of sorts that they're
35:17 extraordinary the reality is everyone is an ordinary person and famous people are people who are known for what they do not who they are and that's a very perverse weird thing because they're ordinary people just like the rest of us they put on one pant one leg one pant at a time or excuse me one pant one leg at a time they defecate like the rest of us they're Ordinary People life is messy for them but we put people on these
35:45 pedestals and when you realize that and you realize okay they figure out how to do an extraordinary thing that they're known for you understand that most people who are celebrities are famous are weird because they don't know how to replicate it because they're ordinary people like you and me and that's the thing a coach needs to know about an athlete they're an ordinary person who might have done an extraordinary thing and our job is to help prepare them
36:12 polish them you know callous them to deal with the realities of when post extraordinary thing they do ordinary things and to help them see the path that got them to that extraordinary capacity and say hey look sometimes you're going to do extraordinary but a lot of times you're going do ordinary and that's okay that's fine it's going to happen you're an ordinary person just like me and that humility and that generosity and that vulnerability is very very key to bring into your
36:43 practice and the debrief like to Echo Steve a little bit here it's very critical when and where you place it because you want the the monkey mind as they say in Buddhism that you want to just address it right away I have a rule of I take a week after a championship meet to be debrief with my athletes because they need space they need to buffer they need to come off the emotional high after a championship
37:08 Endeavor and so do I and nine times out of 10 right after like there's all these emotions especially when they fail and they don't do well or they don't you know you know get to the podium or they expected to do well and I just say look make better art just that's all it is make better art you we went here we went to the market we went to the public fair and we went to this championship and it
37:30 wasn't good so now we need to go back and figure out how to make better art that's on you you got the feedback I got the feedback we need you to make better art I don't know how we're going to do that right now but that's that's what we have to do well you know in his book Matthew Crawford what's the word book The World beyond your head yes yeah his second book after his second book
37:55 which is a fascinating read highly suggest it because it well it makes you think but in there I was reviewing my suggestion though is to read Zen In The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance before you read Crawford because Crawford is somewhat of a modern echo of I would agree with that pium 100% that's the order I read them in so I I apparently stumbled upon doing it correctly there you go but in there he talks about he
38:23 talks about experience and criticism and his his kind of view and I wish I had the quote in front of me I'll throw it in the show in the podcast notes but his view is that criticism a critique is necessary to take an experience from a momentary experience that kind of comes through and then Fades away and then we forget about it to taking that to a cemented experience something that we actually feel no experience can recall
38:55 and more more importantly can transfer into something usable down the line like it becomes something that we use and what kind of cements that transition from that kind of acute experience to the cemented experience is crit of is being critical is a critique of the performance whatever the performance was doing and this point is that when we critique we internalize the story that we're telling
39:28 from the performance and what went right and what went wrong and internalizing that so it's usable and I think that's a an important concept to look at but I think it's also important to realize how people do that and it's not just as John said like me and you as coaches telling you but it's people is giving athletes the space to process it on their own and then coming in with a more formal critique maybe in the spot of a debrief
40:02 with your coach coming in later to cement the experience and I think often what happens is we don't allow people to process what they went through and then we jump in with these Corrections right away and those Corrections had can't be tied to that experience because there was no there's there's no story behind it the athlete hasn't like cemented it in his head with own criticism and that that makes sense at all it does and I think you need to know
40:32 the right questions to ask and I stole these questions from Dan path because he articulated them very concisely and the three questions are you know after a major competition or even a season is one what what did you want to achieve and then what was your mindset two what actually happened and then three what caused the gap between what you wanted to achieve and what happened and if there was a gap
41:04 whether it's a negative Gap or a positive Gap maybe you're were like hey you know I wanted a PR and I end up winning you know the State title okay great that's a good Gap or it's like hey I wanted to win St the State title and I didn't make it a state so because what that as a coach we so much want to talk and give our two sense and make in in you know course correct and say oh
41:23 here's what you need to do but you need to shut up and just let the talk because what that athlete will unfold with those kind of three questions will then allow you to springboard to those areas of opportunity on how to coach that person you know where I go from there is like okay well what are some major holes you see in your training you know other questions are like you know what did you learn from this competition that you
41:48 would not have learned had you not done the competition you know what are you doing really well where do you need to improve on and then you as a coach just ask the questions leave it open-ended and let the athlete respond and you can do that in person I prefer breaking bread you know over a meal and having be a conversation rather than an interview in an office with a desk separating us or something of that Ma matter where
42:10 we're actually eating and conversing and having a good time or you know if you don't have that luxury on that time you can have it be like a Google form or whatever or email or something but those questions are critical because that's allowing the athlete to tell you what what their thought and intentions were how they perceived it and where they think the errors are and I tell you like nine times out of 10 most people
42:37 come to me when I'm saying what caused the Gap it's a physical thing oh preparation wasn't good oh I should have done more speed work I should have done you know more of this more of that and nine times out of 10 that's not the answer but it shows us the solution pattern they're trying to create is a physical solution pattern when they're really you know primitive in understanding the fact that's a mental resiliency opportunity because you know I I'm right
43:04 there with in the C with everyone in the camp of failure like I had two really good middle distance women go to Albuquerque and they made the final and then they were just ineffective in the final like you know last or near last in the final and not because they're not good they're good they're talented they have they have the goods but they shot their emotional bullet in the prelim and we didn't have effective coping mechanisms or you know regenerative
43:30 or reboot mechanisms in place for them to come down and kind of shut off if you want to get sciency i'll compliment Steve here with the sympathetic nervous system and get more parasympathetic to allow themsel to reboot and reenergize so they were both of them expressed oh I couldn't get to sleep that night my adrenals were like really high like my energy I didn't get to or I had a rough time sleeping and then they just felt
43:52 emotionally fried the next day because it's it's finals or it's prel and finals and then they just didn't have it even though physically they were both in the best shape of their life they PR more races than not and almost every race IND door they've been able to do more density and intensity than ever physically they're ready to go but what crystallized to me in that moment was like oh crap like we can get people physically really well prepared but if
44:19 they're not mentally and emotionally ready to like rebound and be resilient and I haven't addressed those coping mechanisms so what who cares it's going to mean they're going to be super ineffective as proof in that pudding versus the flip side is you know another fun story Ben blankin ship he pulled the two mile one mile double at alberquerque and you know he got rocked in the two mile as everyone else did by Paul chimo and I'm
44:46 sitting there talking to one of my athletes and his camps really you know where he had his stuff was really close to mine he comes in after his two m starts dry heaving and vomiting in a trash can for five straight minutes just like like the athlete I was talking about she like walked away her face was getting all pale like I can't be around that and vomiting dry heaving like it's intense and he had the mental Clarity
45:11 and resiliency to game up the next day and win the indoor mile I mean come on like that's awesome people would like cut it and say I'm not even lining up but here he is just like yak in everything and he's like you know what I'm going to show up I get after in that mile the next day so there you see the very delicate dance between being mentally prepared and physically you know prepared or physically res
45:41 resilient because I remind everyone you'll never be ready we'll never be ready we're never ready for our first marriage we're never ready for to you know for women to give birth to our first child you even both parents to raise our first child to buy our first house to go you're never ready for that that all you can do is be prepared to the best of your ability and being prepared to the best of ability is one
46:02 part physical two parts mental and how many times have we had this athlete or athletes who are like the grittiest toughest just competitive little snots who like yeah they run 30 miles a week they don't do a long run but man they're always sticking their nose in it and they're a factor versus that other like narac athlete who's like yeah they run 60 m a week a long run do all this stuff foam roll stretch and do everything
46:25 perfect to a te and then when things go off script in a race in a championship race they just completely Wilt and I think we have to remember the art of coaching a lot of times is having that foundation of the principles of the work but also knowing how to implement and enhance the principles of making a world-class person as well all right so I think that's a good place to end except for one
46:56 thing I I can't end this podcast without sharing the text I sent you and our good friend Danny Mackey on igoy and his training which I also TW out yes because when you look at coaching the person and not the work I can't think of a better model of someone who just said like I'm an artist and I'm going to see
47:27 how these people react to this workout and then adjust on the Fly and make it work and that was that was essentially his whole program and to give you guys the backstory if you haven't i' check out my Twitter maybe from a couple days ago I tweeted out a weeklong session or set of workouts Bob SCH did and it was coached by igoy and the beauty of it is it's just a bunch of like hundred M
47:56 repeats 150 M 200 250 160 a bunch of short stuff with really short rest and that's it like day after day but the brilliant part of his program was it's all based on feel there were these you know there's these labels that said like 100 m at Fresh 100 m good 100 met hard and he had this these descriptors for it and if you know how igoy worked he'd essentially worked like one set at at a
48:25 time so it would be like all right go run 10x 100 with 50 m jog at fresh speed and you'd go do that you'd come back and then he'd be like he'd look at you and then he'd go okay next thing we're going to do is you know 6X 250 with 100 m jog at good speed and it was all kind of reactionary coaching based on what he see what he saw and what he thought you
48:55 need needed in that moment and I think that Artistry of adjusting on the Fly having like all you have is a paint brush an empty canvas and then a couple colors to work with which you're trying to figure out what colors you have on that day and then going to work on the canvas that's what I think about and that's what I think that igoy was doing in those workouts I'm going to put a pen in
49:26 something you said reactionary coaching I'm going to you know actually critique that and say it's responsive coaching because you know in reactionary world when you see a doctor when you have a reaction to the medicine that's bad but when you respond to the medicine that's good and responsive coaching is about being present you know coaching the person is about being fully present and grounded Here and Now not here's the Excel sheet did you do the work good job
49:53 monkey okay that's you know here's your carrot for the day responsive coaching is like how do we maximize that person today and sometimes how you maximize the person today is you give them a kick in the ass or sometimes is you give them a pat on the shoulder or a big hug and sometimes you tell them hey you know if they're an adult go have a glass of wine with dinner tonight or if they're you know a kid go have a milkshake tonight
50:19 you earned it you know and those kind of you know humanistic moments is what endear you to each other I know I telling someone it's like the way I get to know my athletes best is if you're a college coach or High School coach even a professional it's traveling with them like the time you spend in the airport the time you spend at dinner the time you spend in the hotels the time you spend on the bus to the meets those are
50:43 critical coaching moments do not be on your phone checking Twitter like go up and down the aisle in the bus sitting next to the kid after the meet or whatever and just talking to him not about track not about the meat about them about their life because if you do that and they know they care about that you as a coach care about them as a person they'll run through brick walls but if their value is only wedded to did
51:08 I run good or not did I run a PR or not did I score five points in the meet or not or you know did I win a state or National Conference Championship or not then man they're going to have a salty taste in their mouth and they're not going to be the most they can be you know I leave you know leave you with this quote from changu the DS monk words of wisdom are precise and clear and you
51:32 you know you don't need to beat around the bush and sometimes it is just a couple sentences but it makes that kid's whole day it makes their kids's whole season it makes their kidss whole remembrance of you and you know in terms of coaching the person that's the very human connection you're trying to make as a coach and I don't care if you have 80 kids on the cross country team and it's just you and two volunteer
51:55 assistance and I don't care if it's you know you have 10 Elite professional athletes and it's just you and you got to manage all these Egos and personalities but that is where it's at is coaching that person precisely and clearly with that wisdom that we're going to enhance you as a human being because then they'll know no matter what happens if coach can watch me and be like Oh coach you know I gave it my best
52:20 and Coach like yep you did great job kiddo you got fifth but you gave your best like that's what it's out it's not participating it's not I showed up and I went through the motions it's I showed up and I gave it everything and I spilled my heart out on the track that is what we should be championing that's what the medal should be not participation medals the did I get my best medals so you know going back again to
52:43 our central theme here you know that's what igoy was brilliant at is there was no map for those guys igoy cursory like lyard like they were just like Hey how do I respond to the type of animals and constraints I have like they could only do work run on the track in you know Compton Los Angeles at USC like you're not going to go run out you know anywhere else like all right but Bob sh would do 10 miles on the track but doing
53:14 this fart lick and I you know and it's funny you mention that Steve because I talked to Vern earlier and he's like yeah I wonder what happened to like real fart why did people get away from it like why are people doing steady States and these control temple runs and I think that's the thing and I was tell ver I go I think it's just a control thing man because farli forces the coach to abdicate the control it forces the
53:35 athlete to take control if you're say I want hard or I want fresh then the athlete has to get really in sync and then when the athlet is really in sync with who they are that's where the magic happens that's where like a Gary lingren happens it's like I just ran a lot and I just pushed the pace as hard as I could from step one you know we remember those leg but I don't remember the kid who got
53:58 fifth at nca's in 200 you know six or six and who ran who broke four I don't know I I can't remember that person even though they might have had the most prescriptive intelligent methodical training plan in the world like kudos to you for getting six in 200 you know four or whatever like I don't remember like I was never that good but you know now fast forward many years later so what seriously but you tell those stories as
54:28 a coach or as a culture about those people who transcended the supposed limits who who kind of danced on their fringes well because I can tell you the most exciting NCA athletes ever that I'm like whoa they made a big stink and a big impact and a big upset and they weren't supposed to do that that's pretty cool and and the only way you get through those breakthroughs those limits is by kind of forsaking the the
54:52 control I think I think a lot of people fall back back on control and I know we're trying to wrap up here but a lot of people fall back on the control because it like it feels good it satisfies you it gives you some sense that you have some influence on performance when you probably don't in that moment right but you know it's only when you kind of Let Yourself Go that you can do some crazy stuff and
55:20 actually approach your limit so I think that that lesson and flicks are great at creating that internal ability to pay attention to how you feel and translate that into performance gains in the race and I think is a skill that needs to be developed you know I think a lot of people actually hold themselves back by paying attention to watches and clocks and all that stuff because they freak out if they see it's too fast versus like just being like all right I
55:51 feel good let's let's write it which I'm sure is a whole whole another topic but yeah in in Psychology you hit on it it's you know there's two fundamental perspectives that if you engageing really you know skirt off depression and a whole poot of other like depressive cognitives disorders and one of them is a sense of gratitude and the other is a sense of curiosity so if you shift your language from I have to hit this pace to oh I am I get to hit this
56:20 pace it's a privilege coach thinks I can run this fast that's exciting and then also you couple it with a curiosity to well let me see if I can do this we're going to just we're going to just see if I can if I can do this like no no no win no loss like I'm going to go out I'm going to try to do it because I'm going to you know see if I can actualize this
56:40 if you come with that perspective you're more likely to have that Transcendent moment or that moment of breakthrough versus I have to run this workout or coach says I have to run this pace I got to I have to and more and more I've been curating coaching my athletes to have that you know attitude of gratitude and that Curiosity Blended together because when you have an attitude of gratitude you're thankful for the challenge you're thankful for
57:06 the opportunity you're thankful for the moment you're thankful for it all and then you're able to do more with less as they say and when you're curious you're able to explore because there is no set preconceived endpoint of successful or notion that you have to do this you're going to say well I'm going to try this and let's see what happens and that's what flick running is and that's what all the you know the coaches in the 50s
57:31 60s and 70s before this this whole industry of sports science to back up their philosophies of why it worked were successful because they were just curious curiosity is king So if you if you learn anything from this 50th episode it's be curious and give a about your athletes and that Steve always wants to keep them short and sweet and I want to go long for so here's a good ending point in the middle of that hey man it's
58:01 it's 2 hours later on it on my frame so you know I've got well we got to give the people what they want so shout out to everybody who's been a fan shout out to everyone our number one fan shout out to our number two fan shout out to our number maybe I hopefully we have 100 fans to you too you know the brilliant part of this is we have no idea we just send these out into the ether and
58:26 someone randomly shows up at at a meet and says hey I listen to your stuff and I'm like all right sweet it it means a lot because it's flattering and it it's flattering and but it's also it I'm very thankful and very grateful that people listen and take things to heart that we discuss and two please critique is welcome if you're a listener and you want to know a little bit something about a topic I mean we are not on an
58:52 ivory you know Tower like let us know and we'll we'll chew on whatever topic as best as we can because again this is you know to me I believe information in the you know internet age should spread it should be viral readily available for free no payall and we're going to continue for as long as I'm on this thing to give it to you for free at no cost but just your time so thank you yep no we're coaches we can't make
59:21 money so that that's true we we we took the Val y That's right track coach Val poverty yes oh man all right well thanks everyone for listening we really appreciate it