1064. News: Paymentology raises $175m, Alipay hands shopping to AI, and the FCA probes digital wa...

0:01 [music] >> This is Fintech Insider News. This week, Paymentology raises $175 million. dollars. Alipay lets shoppers delegate purchases to AI, and the FCA opens a competition probe into MasterCard, Visa, and PayPal. We'll be tackling all of this and more on today's new show. Your team is global. Your payment should be, too. Pay straight from your existing bank account or debit card. No new wallet, no complicated [music] setup.

0:34 Verify your business once, and you're set. Paying your global team shouldn't feel like a job. That's Remitly [music] business. Sign up at remitly.com/smallbusinessmonth. Remitly Incorporated is licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services and in Puerto Rico TM-143, a foreign transmittal agency in Massachusetts, and a currency transmitter in Rhode Island. NMLS number 1028236. >> [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome to episode 1064 [music] of Fintech Insider News, brought to you by 11:FS, the five-time consultancy of the year that [music] works with financial providers big and small to build the next generation of financial services. I'm Laura Watkins, director of media marketing here at 11:FS, and to help me unpack the biggest and most interesting stories from Fintech and financial services from the last week, I'm joined by a brilliant panel of guests.

1:30 So, first up, we have return to the show for Jeff Parker, CEO at Paymentology. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jeff. It's a big week for you and Paymentology, and we know that you have some very exciting news that we teased at the top of the show. But, before we come to that, can you remind our listeners what it is, exactly, that Paymentology does? Sure, thank you for having me again. Paymentology is a next-generation issuer processor.

1:54 And we help Fintechs and banks to launch, manage, and scale their card programs around the world. Fantastic. Succinct. Love it. And we will be coming to your exciting news very shortly, so hold fire. But next up on our panel, we have Monica Eaton, CEO at Chargebacks 911. Welcome to the podcast. Please could you let our listeners know a little bit more about yourself and Chargebacks 911? >> [snorts] >> Thank you. Chargebacks 911 is a platform provider for dispute resolution and prevention services, and we operate globally. We support issuers, merchants, and payment processors, as well as acquirers. Fantastic. Thank you.

2:34 And finally, last but not least, we have a welcome back to the podcast for Fliss Barrett, director of Blue Strawberry Thinking. Great to see you again, Fliss. Thank you for joining us. Please can you remind us a little bit about yourself and Blue Strawberry Thinking? Thank you for having me back. Yes, I've been in payments and fintech for over 13 years at both the central infrastructure level at the Faster Payment System, and co-founded and exited an open banking fintech called Auto. And now I help companies with anything from business strategy to legal, regulatory, and corporate governance.

3:08 Wonderful. Thank you. And I'm sure we're definitely going to dig into that expertise very soon. So, now we have our panel. Let's get started with our first story, which is today that global card issuer and processor Paymentology raises $175 million in latest funding round. This raise is one of the larger fintech infrastructure funding rounds we've seen recently, and comes at a time when investor focus increasingly appears to be shifting from consumer-facing fintech brands toward the infrastructure powering digital payments behind the scenes.

3:39 Paymentology operates across 68 countries, supporting banks, fintechs, and embedded finance providers with issuing and processing infrastructure. The funding will support expansion into areas including stablecoins, tokenization, and AI-driven services. The firm also argues that while the global payments market is expected to reach $49 trillion by 2026, much of the infrastructure behind card issuing still relies on older systems that can slow down innovation and limit flexibility. The new funding will support expansion into areas including credit, stablecoin, tokenization, and AI-driven services.

4:14 So, firstly, obviously, it makes sense for me to come to you, Jeff. Who else? Thank you so much for being here today. Tell us about this. Firstly, congratulations. 175 million is an amazing milestone. Can you tell us more about how you how you got here and and what it is that you're you're looking to build out from here? Jeff Thank [clears throat] you very much. Yeah, it's very exciting for us as a business, and I think it's a great recognition of what we've been trying to build over the last few years.

4:42 I joined the business 2 and 1/2 years ago, and I think thought it was a great opportunity, but I didn't realize how big the opportunity was. And I think this is a good signal. I think you're right. I think a lot of the investment over the last few years has really been maybe on consumer-facing apps. It's been ignoring some of the infrastructure. But, I think what people are starting to realize now is consumers want instant and frictionless, and they want digital experiences that they're seeing in in other providers to to really give that consumers in a timely manner. It's actually the infrastructure which is driving a lot of that innovation. And so, um yeah, we're super excited.

5:20 Um and we think that this is the this is the start of a a really good opportunity for us to become the undisputed global leader in next-generation digital processing. Amazing. That's such a a great ambition, and you you look like you're already well on your way to that. Um but, tell tell me a little bit more about that that sort of quote that was pulled out from the press release around that sort of legacy infrastructure still holding the industry back. What does that sort of look like in practice, and how do you plan to overcome it?

5:47 Yes, if you look at the I guess the issuing industry, it's still 90% dominated by traditional banks, and and most of those traditional banks sit on what we call legacy infrastructure. You know, that's infrastructure that's been around for 30 or 40 years. It's often in like COBOL language, whereas, you know, you're struggling to find engineers that can still support that. Um and it's, you know, what does it mean if it's legacy? It means that um it's really slow in terms of getting new products or um [clears throat] iterated products to market. It means that um if you want to operate in multiple markets and scale globally, that becomes a real challenge. Um it often means finding different providers, different integrations, different operating models.

6:27 It means your ability to I guess to innovate um and create these I guess new experiences around um uh some of the new technologies that we're that we're seeing is just limited. And all of that really is driven by the the legacy infrastructure. So, we built a modern cloud-native infrastructure. Whereas, a single platform, single code base, single integration. So, if you want to operate in one market or 50 markets, um it's really pretty simple through that that same integration. And we really focus on it's almost like a SaaS model, I guess.

6:57 It's uh um we we focus on having a very standard product um that all of our customers use, and then they can configure it's highly configurable, highly flexible. So, they can build their unique customer base in proposition on on top of that. And and I guess the big focus for us is to m- maintain that standardization so that we don't become legacy ourselves. Yeah, that's uh that's not something you want to risk after putting that statement out there. Um but it tell me about some of these figures. So, 117% year-on-year uh in new sales and transaction volumes above 65%.

7:32 What's kind of the main thing that's that's growing that? Uh is it the sort of embedded play? Um you know, what what's what do you think is is driving the demand? I think there's a combination of things. I um well, firstly, we're really pleased with the growth and I think that growth is continuing. So, I think we had great growth last year. We're seeing actual multi-accelerated growth as we go through into into 2026. I think there's, you know, there's the macro structural um elements that we see. I think digital banking is really an inflection point now. We're seeing some significant market share being taken by, you know, whether it's Nubank or Revolut or Monzo, um Chime in the US, etc. And I think that's is being driven primarily by the digital customer experiences, which are just better than you get with uh traditional banks. So, I think there's there's that trend there. I think fintechs are starting to reach scale as well. Um and they're um I guess becoming more and more embedded into particular use case use cases.

8:27 Um we're seeing really strong growth around stablecoin backed cards. Um so, in emerging markets, where people are looking for a hedge against currency volatility, we're seeing massive growth. Then more internally, I think as a business, as I said, we took I took the role 2 years ago. Um I I hired a a new chief revenue officer. I I I think um she's probably the best in the business and she's and she's just really built a very scalable, repeatable sales engine. And so, uh we qualify hard, we qualify fast. Uh we try and focus all our efforts on on real um opportunities. I think the combination of the the macro and then the internal processes is really driving um I guess the the great results that we're seeing at the moment. Fantastic.

9:09 Thank you. And uh Fliss, I want to bring you in here um into the conversation around sort of as Jeff was talking, a lot of consumer-facing brands and neo banks have sort of driven the conversation in in fintech, but do we think actually the biggest shift is maybe behind the scenes, uh sort of on the infrastructure plays um behind it? Is that where the the the kind of industry is maturing towards? I was thinking about this, and it occurred to me that we've had a sustained period of global shocks for quite a while now and slow growth in the economy in the UK at least. A cost of living crisis for many which has fueled those sorts of features like different pots and perhaps different rewards cards and easy access savings accounts and those sorts of things that focus on ways for consumers to manage and be more agile with their money.

10:02 But then if those that cost of living crisis continues, those global shocks continue to come, we have political instability yet again in the UK, that just then gets absorbed into the everyday and it's no longer a crisis, it's just the everyday ongoing state of things. And then consumer brands need to then look at Well, how else can they improve? How else can they serve their customers? How else can they make growth happen and perhaps cut their bottom line and costs?

10:34 How can they then deliver those consumer bells and whistles while still being efficient themselves and agile and as Jeff was saying, often that isn't the case with legacy platforms and it's then the infrastructure plays come in and there has to be this modular kind of development with agility at behind the scenes fueling the bells and whistles at the front. So actually you make a really good point there. I think um if we look at what consumers want there and and those good sort of experiences and you talk about loyalty and rewards as an example there, um you really need to be able to do that by the mobile phone and I think um a lot of the last few years we've seen development in in mobile apps and and and the UX, but actually if it's on legacy uh platform, there's only so much you can do because actually the underlying um configuration actually comes through from from from the platform. So simple things like setting spend limits or allowing you to move um change your PIN on your mobile phone or maybe allocate a virtual card to your son or your daughter. All of that, you know, while the the pretty UX comes through the mobile phone, all the actual ability to do that is through the is through the infrastructure. And if you are a legacy platform, um it can take months and months and months to do that type of development, whereas on a modern platform it's it's pretty instant, it's just a configuration change. And then and yes, the infrastructure becomes then an enabler with a consumer and benefit. Yeah. And then the geopolitical bit is also really important and you know, while we see a little bit here in the UK, obviously we cover businesses in 68 countries around the world and you know, we've got a number of clients in the Middle East for example. Um you've seen a rise [clears throat] over the last few years of I guess an increased desire for sovereignty and to bring control within countries and so, you know, regulators are asking for data to be processed onshore or transactions to be to be stored. Um you're seeing uh governments introduce local domestic payment schemes. We're seeing Europe having that conversation at the moment.

12:36 Um and I think again a modern processor is able to integrate We're integrated into about 10 of those local domestic schemes around the world. It's very difficult, I think, for a a legacy player to start to be agile and to to change with the regulation like that as well. And Monica, can we bring you in here? Obviously Dev was just talking about the sort of 68 uh countries of operation. Obviously that, you know, is is um can be fragmented market by market.

13:00 What's your your kind of take on this and and sort of some of the uh complexity of doing it scale across different regions? Yeah, so I think um just on the back of the both comments, uh first, you know, I think we've definitely undertaken a digital revolution, which has, you know, created kind of an intersection where we have all of this technology that's driving change, increasing demand, and you know, it is exciting with all the neo banks and digital banks.

13:32 I totally agree. You have to have really the right infrastructure to be able to provide an answer to this demand and today you know whether it's it's Revolut or Monzo or you know Wise it doesn't really matter time stay side of course but today it's not just about what currency you want to use but it's really you know having a one-stop shop for your disputes as well and you know we operate on a global basis and we're finding very similar there's not really a single use case where today's consumer is strictly doing business in their one country for their one currency with their one bank what they're looking for is something that is modular and it can grow with changing times and you know in the back of covid I think this is really kind of reshape the industry in in turn in step turn with AI and some of the functionalities but if you look at disputes this is where I think you have kind of an argument to consider on on both sides so you know we want things to be digital and frictionless in order to create consumer adoption I'd say you know this is the age of consumer choice but when it comes to disputes firstly yes we have a lot of fragmentation to deal with there's different payment methods there's different regulatory considerations of course in some cases like in India Singapore you really have to look at privacy constraints and different policies but you know giving an experience that's digital to the to the consumer is first and and foremost in a lot of you know adoption trends but making sure that it's not so frictionless that you end up inadvertently creating an onslaught of you know frivolous disputes, convenience disputes.

15:25 Um I think that that is where you need that balance. So for us, super exciting and and changing times and you know, I think similar to to both of you, we're also exploring opportunities in stable coin, pay by bank. Like how can we create that that bolt-on you know, infrastructure that helps support really the challenges you have this legacy world that we need to fit around existing fragmented processes and and really get people to a level of standard with with expectations that that aren't short-sided of some of the potential fallout that makes sense.

16:04 Absolutely. Um I'm definitely kind of coming up on time on this story, but I just want to give you the final word. Um obviously we we sort of spoke at the top a little bit about mentioning some of those areas, stable coins, tokenization, AI-driven services um for Paymentology's future. Can you just give us a little sneak peek of what that might look like? Yeah, I think um yeah, we're going to continue um on our track of expanding internationally. Uh the US is going to be a new market for us soon. We're going to continue to invest in product development. I think there's a real opportunity to turn issuer processing from a you know, almost a transaction-based uh infrastructure to actually a more intelligent layer and I think with AI gives us a chance to accelerate that. We have a really great foundation to build on. We have huge amounts of data from clients in 68 countries and so when we think about uh going up the stack, um fraud is an obvious area for us um in terms of predictive behavioral analytics. We're starting to automate all of the disputes and chargeback space. Um as Monica said, I think it's very fragmented. I think there's a a huge opportunity uh in that space.

17:09 Um credit is a really interesting space for us both getting data to help clients um make credit decisioning, but we've just launched a brand new cloud-based credit platform that allows clients to to take the credit decision actually post transaction. So, it moves it from the acquiring side to the issuing side, and they can switch between uh revolving credit or um installment credit. And then with any business who's looking to grow, I think uh talent is a is a key part. We can't do any of this without people. I know people would like to believe we uh we we don't need people with AI anymore, but I think there's still >> [laughter] >> there's still some people that we need.

17:40 Um so, we'll look to um selectively hire some some great people to increase the I guess the talent density within the organization. But um yeah, very excited um and uh very looking forward to what the next few years brings towards Fantastic. Well, congratulations again, and uh you know, we will be watching from the sidelines to see where this goes next, and hopefully you can come and tell us more about it as as all of these things fall into place.

18:04 Um but I'm going to move us onto our next story, which is that Alipay is letting shoppers delegate purchases to AI. The story in FinExtra, Chinese payments giant Alipay has begun allowing users to authorize AI agents to make payments on their behalf. Originally launched last year, Alipay AI Pay enables transactions through AI agents using voice commands and one-time payment authorization. The feature has seen rapid adoption in China, surpassing 100 million users in February of this year, um and reportedly processing more than 120 million transactions in a single week. The capability is now integrated into Alibaba's Taobao shopping platform, and users can tell an AI assistant what they want to buy, set preferences around price or timing, and allow the AI to monitor listings and complete the purchase automatically once conditions are met. Alipay says the technology will expand beyond shopping into recurring payment scenarios, including commuting, utilities, and repeat purchases.

19:02 Um So, Monica, coming to you first on this, what was your take on the story? Like, is this a big moment for payments and commerce? Um you know, where do we sort of stand on on trust and consumer protection with things like delegating to AI? What's your stance on this one? So, I think I I mean, first of all, yes, I think it's exciting. Anything that is that's creating automation, of course. You know, the it's it's quite opportunistic to think, you know what? Actually, why don't I use I mean, in the states we've had all these different stories with, you know, Amazon Alexa is now making my purchases for me. But, isn't it even smarter if Alibaba you can deploy this agent and we've all read about agentic, you know, AI. But, I do think that this is to the point of, you know, we need to have we we don't have the standards in place yet to deal with, you know, what is a valid dispute and what's not a valid dispute because in every situation, you're you're going to have still questionable transactions, whether a product isn't delivered, it wasn't unintentionally ordered.

20:11 We have this we had this huge conundrum and it continues to grow with parental consent. And just to give you an idea when it comes to chargebacks and disputes and, you know, this, you know, these fraud statistics, if you have your mobile and you give it to your son or daughter and they download, let's say Candy Crush, then often times, you know, the the consumer goes to their bank. They go to Barclays. They say, you know what? Actually, no idea where all these transactions came from. Clearly, it wasn't authorized. But, actually, it was because you provide you have you're the parent, so you needed to provide parental consent and you did by default of providing your app and your card was located on there.

20:53 So, that's been a challenging problem that has continued to grow through the years. Now, we have something that is like, you know, supercharged and even more intelligent. It's not your 5-year-old that is clicking buttons on your phone. Instead, it's something that you have actually programmed to do this work. But, I still think it's human nature. We're still going to have the fallout of, you know, my AI made a mistake. They bought something that I didn't want. What happened with this?

21:25 And and really, we don't have rules in place to address this. And you know, wherever there's a problem, of course, there's an opportunity on with the automation. But, uh but yeah, I think good and bad. I like it. I get somebody. Jeff, what was what was your take on this? Do you Is this a natural evolution of embedded payments, or is this actually sort of fundamentally different from a kind of consumer behavior perspective? What was your take? You got it. I wasn't surprised to see China leading the way there. I used to work for Ant and live in Hong Kong, and I used to travel to China quite a lot. And so, you know, I know the ambition that they have when it comes to to technology. I I think it's slightly different in China. I think Alipay is so embedded in the in the daily life of China. It's, you know, literally they people run their lives on on Alipay. So, I think their access to to data and the size of their customer base, I think, makes it right for um agentic AI. So, I think from that side, it makes sense. Is it a natural evolution? I think Look, it makes sense now it's happened.

22:26 Um but it's that it looks like a natural evolution. Um you know, would we have said that a year or two ago and and thought that maybe not. Um but but I think it's it's important to know that it is fundamentally different from what's happened before. I think as Monica touched on here, I think we're um you know, under agentic AI, we're we're we're I guess delegating the decision-making to the agent. Whereas, you know, up until now, it's always just been the execution um of that. And I think that brings a whole raft of different uh risk profiles and responsibilities and and and things around disputes and chargebacks, as as Monica said. So, um I think it is fundamentally different and there's a lot of additional complexity and challenges.

23:06 I think China is probably a good place for it to start, but I don't think it's as easily rolled out in in the West where we we use apps and and and have different data spread across different sources. So, I think it's it's not going to be a thing that comes tomorrow. I wonder if we'll have a scenario where, you know, you have an additional user on your account, which is your virtual AI identity. And they're authorized for certain things. But but yeah, I mean, it's if you if you consider how many transactions are going through Amazon, I'm not sure that we're too far away. It is It is definitely an interesting proposition. I think you're right, Monica. I think that's what will happen and it'll be businesses like ourselves that can help do that from an infrastructure side. So, I think there'll be certain I guess rules and limits it can operate in if it's on in in this category, obviously, and uh for these amounts.

23:59 So, yeah, I think that's where it'll it'll head back. Interesting. Yeah, it sounds like you guys already got the business model mapped out. Well done. So, [laughter] between the two of you. Liz, bringing you into a kind of related to to Jeff's points around the sort of East-to-West movement of these kind of things. Obviously, uh China very invested in the sort of super app ecosystem, perhaps more so than the West. What's your take on this? Do you think we'll see more of this kind of moving East-to-West or or you know, is either the data or the consumer behavior not there yet? I think we will see movement, but I think it will be slower and more cautious than China.

24:39 I think you'll get the early adopters curious about this and playing around and having a go, taking a bit more risk. I think it'll be the tech curious and informed, but don't forget the UK backdrop to all of this is we still have, for example, regulations on access to cash and so on. So, there is there's perhaps a larger swathe of society and ability to trust to bring along to this. And I think trust comes down as the key to it all.

25:13 Just another angle, slightly differently, um but if you think about there's quite a vocal objection to a digital pound and a digital ID, it's that rebellion against things going on that are hidden behind the scenes that you can't actually see the workings of. So, I think there'll be some trust to overcome and some perhaps demonstration of those tech-curious and informed early adopters to show that it's not all robots and futuristic and disaster.

25:46 Yeah, that that's an interesting point on the the sort of perception of this at a kind of consumer level as well. Like, Mon- Monica, what's your take on that, particularly around that sort of trust, loyalty, customer acquisition piece? Um do customers maybe in the West need to be persuaded into this? Well, this is and this is why I think we've seen cards get such adoption, regardless of, you know, the there's you know, so many different opportunities in the UK market, what, 1,400 different FinTechs, and I I mean, lots of movement in it's almost like you have this, you know, so many neo banks, so many different ways for consumers to transact with each other, pay by bank, RTP, etc.

26:32 Still, you see cards are owning that that online mechanism, and it's because uh exactly uh as as you said, it's it's about trust. And you know that if you use a card, then, of course, you know, this is guaranteed, it's secure. You can file a chargeback. You can contact your bank. You have section 75 worst case scenario. Um so I really think, you know, it's I'm not sure that it that we have enough of a barrier to prevent, you know, agentic AI taking a stronghold pretty quick because if it's using a card, well, we have trust that's built in as a built-in mechanism.

27:14 Um but I do I do agree. I think the UK is positioned probably much better than most countries in that you have the FCA. There's a lot of discussion already in in considering, you know, what type of what type of protocols and processes can we put in place to make sure that that we've checked the box on some of these different methods, different mechanisms so that, you know, there's I think then you start to get into how much fraud could actually happen when you consider, you know, all the different APP it you know, fraud schemes that happen with account-to-account transfers. First, like and consider that this could be, you know, robots doing a lot of this.

27:55 There's uh yeah, I think there's enough friction right now to kind of, you know, make people think a bit to put in the right protocols for fraud checking as as Jeff was talking about. Um but but I do think that the opportunity to expand is there and and consumers are, you know, largely they they still take it for granted that, you know, if if there is fraud on their card, well, their bank will take care of it. And and, you know, we want consumers to feel safe and feel protected, but they should have consumer choice and feel the same safety and protection that spans across all payment methods. And I think that's that's our task as an industry. Does that answer that? Kind of maybe coming to you on that sort of trust piece and like the the kind of fundamental shift in what customer experience actually looks like if you have a a kind of AI um agent doing all of this for you.

28:52 You know, we we'd sort of as Monica mentioned, spend a lot of energy making kind of payments frictionless, uh but when it's an AI doing everything for you, is there an element of friction that's maybe still needed to Monica's point to get you to sort of think about it properly before you go ahead? Well, perhaps it's then putting that friction at the front where you set those parameters and the guardrails for your agent to go out shopping like there's no tomorrow for you.

29:19 Um a good amount of friction is good in the right place for people that want it. Let's not hold back innovation for the sake of um some baddies that get through. Absolutely. And Jeff, you were you were kind of nodding frantically there. Maybe final word to you on kind of, you know, the sort of set and forget uh financial experiences going mainstream. I think what you're saying is right. I think we need to provide Look, I I think customers want seamless, frictionless experiences.

29:49 Uh the reality is that more and more options are are coming and actually the underlying choices is greatest so there's this kind of item complexity and I think it's our job as the industry and I think AI can really help that is to and how do we do that orchestration layer? Um how do we use intelligence to uh help the customer use the right kind of tool or payment method or channel um based on what they're what they're purchasing. If they're purchasing I don't know, a cup of coffee which is quite cheap, then you know, maybe uh a card isn't needed for the charge back, but if it's, you know, a an expensive holiday or something, it's it's a a different mechanism. And I think what Sizz mentioned is right. I think we should be able to set parameters. We should be able to train uh the agents to understand us and our different risk profiles. I think a lot of this comes down to education. Um I actually think the regulator needs to step up in this instance as well. I think it'd be a bit more proactive. It feels like the regulator is taking a bit too much of a backward seat seat the moment. I think um uh they need to be part of this because I think there's a there's a massive opportunity for whoever steps up and steps forward with with with AI. Um and I think the UK is extremely well placed with our history with fintech, financial services, uh innovation. Um and if we're not careful, other people uh take the lead. Fantastic. Yeah, I mean nods around on that one. Um so, yeah, um completely agree and let's see where this one goes to. But on that note, we're just going to take a quick pause.

31:11 Back shortly. >> [music] >> I love it. A LEGO set is a gift that always clicks and clicks. So beautiful and clicks. For kids who love to create, choose a LEGO set. A gift that always clicks. Before we get back to the news, we wanted to tell you about our latest insight show. We've teamed up with our friends at Backbase to dive into the question, can traditional banking survive the AI era? Very pertinent to the conversation we were having just before the break. Uh it is a big question and a very interesting conversation. Uh that episode is out now. Just head to the episode below this one in your podcast feed. But now, back to the news. Next up, the FCA opens a competition probe into Mastercard, Visa, and PayPal. The story in the papers.

32:09 The UK's Financial Conduct Authority has launched a competition investigation into Mastercard, Visa, and PayPal over suspected anti-competitive conduct linked to PayPal's digital wallet. The probe centers on the commercial arrangements between the companies and how different payment methods are prioritized or incentivized when consumers pay through PayPal. The inquiry follows broader global scrutiny of payment network power and digital wallet competition. In 2024, the US Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against Visa over alleged monopolization of the debit card market, while regulators have increasingly examined how wallets influence consumer payment choices and transaction rating.

32:50 Um So, there's a lot to unpack here, really. Um Fleur, maybe you can you can sort of help us dig into this. Sort of how significant is this investigation? Can you unpack it for us a little bit? What exactly are they are they looking for and what might the implications be? Well, I think it's taking the time to focus and shine some light on and get behind what's in these agreements and practices behind digital wallets and what various ought to be competing companies have agreed.

33:20 And I think this can only be good for UK payments landscape, UK FinTechs, UK businesses and consumers. It is a further sign that regulators and successive governments have been signaling a real push behind wanting a real alternative to cards, and that can only be good for open banking and all types of alternative payment methods. It's a chance for um the true and real costs of payments to be signaled to consumers and not inappropriately, and where there are incentives that are too close to that competition line that they go slightly over it, that a light is shine on shone on them, and we start to see the reality for what it is. And and maybe there's nothing wrong with them, but maybe there is, and it will allow open banking and other alternative payments to come to the fore and be a real competitor to cards.

34:24 Fantastic. And yeah yeah, as you say, the FCA has been careful to say it hasn't reached a conclusion yet. Uh and some of these investigations can run for years. Sometimes, something happens, sometimes nothing happens. Um Um how much sort of impact do these investigations have while they're ongoing? Um you know, is it sort of to you to your point, does it bring these uh conversations to the fore so that consumers do start questioning their like visibility on on transaction fees and that sort of thing, or are they you know, does this change anything at all? I guess is what I'm asking.

34:56 >> [laughter] >> I think I think any change will be slower. Regulation doesn't move quickly, and there are disadvantages and advantages to that. The advantages are that it means regulation in the UK is reliable and robust, and in terms of AI, it can learn from practice and what's going on and be relevant. But the disadvantage is it's slow to change and slow to have an impact. And I think whilst us payments and fintech geeks and listeners to 11:FS might know about these sorts of topics, it's probably not going to hit the mainstream. So, the more tech-savvy consumer might notice, and then would have to put some intention to get around the deliberate herding of larger companies to push them down one payment method if they want to use a different one.

35:47 Fantastic. And and Jeff, kind of coming to you, what was what was your take on this one? How much sort of influence do networks and wallets have over consumer payment behavior? Um you know, could this really change things in terms of alternatives to cards as Fliss suggested? Um what's your take? I mean, maybe I'm a bit of a cynic. I'm I'm not sure if this materially changes anything. Um I think we've seen this before. I think it's a yeah, political kind of move, I guess, to make it look like we're trying to help the the consumer, I think. Um These big organizations have the ability to switch fees around and move them into different buckets.

36:24 Um I I think what we shouldn't ever forget though is that um the cost of of of payments is is real. So, you know, whether it's cash, there's a real cost to to moving cash. Um if it's cards, you know, cards are probably a slightly more expensive, but they provide huge uh significantly more protection in terms of chargebacks and um um insurance, etc. I think that's uh I see worth worth spending. Um I think we do as an industry have some influence over which channels customers use. Um and I think that will only increasingly happen as we as we try and create this kind of simplified experience for customers, but underneath the line increasing complexity underneath. So, if we're if we're orchestrating and especially with our generative AI, if we're effectively uh making decisions on behalf of the um of the consumer, I think we have uh a potential to have much more influence over this. And so, I think you know, the concept is right in terms of protecting consumers. We all we should be protecting consumers. I'm just not sure whether these types of um uh investigations necessarily have that good for customers. Fair enough. Monica, from your perspective, um this is we've seen scrutiny from both the UK and the US regulators around sort of network dominance, digital wallets, payments, payment routing, sorry. Um what's your what's your take on how impactful this could be? Yeah, I think um you know, I mean, I I agree with both.

37:46 And and especially, you know, very little impact. I I think I think it's a it's a good initiative, but here's here's in in my opinion, the the challenge here is yes, we want we we're happy that we have, you know, active regulators that are looking into things like this, you know, wherever they are in the world. Um but you can't just we can't just, you know, learn the rules of engagement and play the game with either offense or defense. You need both. You have to have both. So, if you're going to put pressure to say, "Hey, you know what? We want to block and tackle this issue from preventing us from making a goal, well, you need to have some you need to have some people on the offense that are going to take it the distance and we need to create standards and help support other initiatives in the industry that that are going to leverage opportunities because otherwise what you end up with is, you know, maybe you're blocking and tackling some scenarios, but it's not going to have the effect that we want. It's not going to, you know, you you can create more of a runway and a path to get to that goal, but you're not going to get there unless we also have regulatory support that is going to make things smoother, easier, and and really support the industry and innovation, some of these FinTechs, and create more opportunities with regulatory support to be able to compete. And I think you need both. I really like that metaphor like the offense and defense.

39:20 I think that just like makes it really real for for people. So what's your what's your take on that in terms of yeah, like customer protection but you know, not at the expense of innovation perhaps. Yeah, sure. Um the amount of protection that is reasonable and appropriate. I think not an amount of protection that is penal to FinTechs coming forward and their innovative solutions and would just encourage lazy consumers, but then an amount of protection that that reflects society these days and that there can be for example in fraud there's a lot of grooming that goes on before someone is tricked into making a payment. It's not just as simple as oh, you made this payment and you shouldn't have done and that was really silly. There's fraud these days is very sophisticated and structured and so it's a balance of between innovation and protection.

40:21 Definitely. And and Jeff, coming to you, does sort of greater scrutiny sort of slow things down, do you think? Or or is it about just sort of adding in that the layer of protection where protection needs to be? Look at Victor, my perspective running a business is there's always things um that create uncertainty for us. Uh regulation is one of those things, geopolitics is another thing. Uh you know, advancements in new technology, new competition. I think um we have to be aware of these things, we have to be conscious of these things, and we have to you know, have to keep um uh pushing things through and when um yeah, if decisions get made, we we we adapt to it. So, I think we don't we don't close our eyes to this or bury our head in the sand, um but at the same time, I don't worry too much about these things until there's a bit more um certainty around it. I think there's there's plenty of things for us to um continue driving, I think.

41:16 Yeah, there's the the market is huge, there's still a massive opportunity for fintechs there. Um I think we just need to keep solving customer problems, um and if we keep doing that, we'll uh continue to create the good businesses. I think that's a fantastic note to conclude the story on, to be honest. Um so, on that note, we're going to take another quick pause, uh back very shortly. Okay, now for a quick look at a story we don't have time to cover in full this week, but Wise has debuted its US listing on Nasdaq. The story in FF News, Wise has officially begun trading on Nasdaq while maintaining its secondary listing on the London Stock Exchange.

41:57 The move gives the cross-border payments firm access to US capital markets as it continues expanding its presence in what it describes as its biggest growth market globally. Alongside the listing, Wise said updated financial figures for the year ending March 26, including cross-border payment volumes reaching $243 billion, up 31% year-on-year, while customer holdings rose 40% to $39 billion. The company says nearly 75% of transfers on its network now arrive instantly, with average fees remaining significantly below traditional providers. Wise says the US listing will help accelerate growth across its consumer businesses and infrastructure offerings, as well as deepen partnerships with banks and platforms in the US market.

42:40 They've been already listed in London for about 5 years, and Wise CEO Kristo Käärmann highlighted on the interview he joined on CNBC that Wise has more customers in the US than the UK now, and Wise has 19 million customers globally. So, this is sort of fulfillment of something that Wise said they were aiming to do last year. Now, they have, you know, literally put their money where [clears throat] their mouth is and done it. I think it's interesting that they're sort of keeping a foot in both camps. Um, beginning trading on Nasdaq with one foot still on the London Stock Exchange, but it does make sense if you think that the US is now their biggest market and they want to continue growing in in that area. And also having access to capital in that market, it makes a lot of sense.

43:24 It's obviously sad for London, but it makes complete sense for Wise's you know, continued expansion and growth. And it'll be interesting to see how this one plays out. And now, I'm going to move us on to our and finally section. I know we usually finish on something a little lighter, but somehow today's story manages to combine Bank of America, Grand Theft Auto, inflation economics, and what what might become the most expensive mainstream video game launch ever. And this story is Bank of America analyst says that GTA 6 should be $80 per unit, so it doesn't make everyone else's $70 games look bad.

44:03 So, let that sink in for a minute. A Bank of America analyst has suggested that GTA 6 should launch at $80, not just because the game itself is expected to be enormous, but because charging the current industry standard of $70 could make every other AAA game suddenly look overpriced by comparison. The logic is essentially this: if Rockstar delivers a game that's significantly bigger, more ambitious, and more expensive to make than anything else on the market, then pricing it the same as every other title could actually hurt the wider industry.

44:32 The analyst also pointed to rising development costs, with GTA 6 reportedly having been in development for nearly a decade across multiple global studios involving thousands of developers, and the expectations of it are equally huge. Some analysts are predicting the game could sell more than 25 million copies on day one alone. Um, while Take-Two CEO Strauss Zelnick reportedly suggested that even 10 million day one sales could be considered disappointing. All right. Uh, first of all, do we have any gamers here? Is anyone a gamer? Has a gamer in their lives, uh, that is qualified to comment on this one? Um, I have a husband who is desperate for this game to come out.

45:13 He's already put the time off request in for the day of release. Um, you know, there's uh, a thing a a thing called being a GTA widow, which will definitely be me for at least a fortnight or so when this comes to pass. Um, so the the point is the demand is definitely there. Um, what do we think about sort of Bank of America getting involved in how the uh, gaming industry should price itself? Um, Jeffy, look like you're chuckling at this story. What's your take?

45:42 Um, I mean, it it I guess it shows how big the gaming industry is for for this uh, this to to come from through. I'm not sure whether um, Grand Theft Auto's pricing decision is how it makes it look to the industry. I'm sure they're just working out how they can maximize their revenue revenue. So, I'm not surprised that you know, if they go higher than everyone else given that demand and so people will uh will pay for it cuz I think it's also yeah it's a game that defines a category by itself, isn't it?

46:13 Um Yeah it's it's it's an interesting one. It's a lot of money I think. It is a lot of money but I equally think they could charge whatever they want because if people have been waiting 10 years for this, they're going to pay regardless I think. Um I agree. >> [snorts] >> So let's let's have your take. You know when did video games become serious enough for investment banks to start telling them what their market rate should be?

46:37 Yeah. So I'm guessing the answer is going to be no to my thought which was is it possible that there are other games that people might be equally interested in or that they might get bored with Grand Theft Auto and want to play different game but I guess you can tell gaming is far far far away from my life so >> [laughter] >> yeah. I mean I yeah I I mean obviously you know there's many many others out there but I think this one is as Jeff sort of said like kind of era defining so people really line up behind it particularly if it's taken 10 years to make.

47:12 You know that's a a lot of investment on behalf of the company making it so they're definitely hoping for some um uh major returns on that one. Um Monica what what were your thoughts? Uh I I mean I think it's it is uh it's interesting that Bank of America has commentary on the subject but but I guess not so far-fetched because of course they're make money making money on transactions and if you consider you know smarter economics to protect the market value uh in the chargeback space maybe it's a good thing if they go out at $70 because you know what there's there's probably going to be different problems to solve and that it spurs new innovation in the gaming space. Who knows?

48:01 Um maybe there's opportunities for points, loyalty. I mean, there's there's a lot of nuances when it comes to gaming. And and uh I I think uh I think it is it's an interesting an interesting scenario, for sure. Do you know Do you know how much it cost to make? Do you know how much it cost to make? Um I don't. No. Um But I think they've been building it for 10 years. It's quite expensive. Uh yes. Well, one of one of the other one of the other issues with gaming is that, you know, because once it's built, right now, it's just software. And so, it's a very low fulfillment cost, of course. And so, this ends up creating almost, you know, a problem in and of itself because if there are a lot of chargebacks or disputes for unauthorized transactions or someone now feels like they're getting ripped off because like Grand Theft Auto was so amazing, and they've been paying $70 for something that, you know, is not as good. Well, what happens is, generally, you know, these organizations, they don't necessarily like you can you don't take anything away because it has such a low cost. It's not like, you know, you bought a computer or a laptop, and it was something that, you know, actually cost that company. They have sunk costs already. So, that's an interesting thing that they like with any type of a software solution is it's tempting to to not penalize the the consumers.

49:33 Um so, you end up inadvertently uh rewarding them. So, so they do it more often. But but we'll just have to see how this pans out. >> Laura, I'm shooting the the lifetime the lifetime value of this must be much more than $70. I'm sure your husband will spend $70 a year on all the extra on buying all know extra bits that you need to compete yet? >> Exactly. He needs points. >> [laughter] >> Oh, probably. Yeah.

49:56 Um and then equally, you know, sometimes not not on this occasion, I don't think, but sometimes with some games you also have to upgrade your console as well, which is a whole other investment, but I'm hoping for, you know, the joint bank account's sake that's not the case here. >> [laughter] >> But we also asked our LinkedIn community if they were planning on taking time off um when the game came out. 52% said yes. >> Wow. That tells you a lot about the crossover between our audience of financial services professionals and GTA. Uh 26% said no, and 22% said I'll be working from home that day in inverted [laughter] commas.

50:35 We will see how this one pans out, but yeah. I working Watch out, line managers, that week. So, that concludes today's episode. Thank you so much to today's guest. Where can people find out a little bit more about you and your companies and everything that you're doing? Uh Jeff, let's come to you first. Thanks, everyone. So, you can email me on jeff.parker@paymentology.com. Um and our website is www.paymentology.com. Um I'd love to hear from you. Fantastic. Thank you. Monica.

51:05 Uh you can find me online uh on LinkedIn, and you can also go to our website www.churchbags911.com, and just click on contact us and send us a message. Fantastic. And Fliss? I and Fliss Short Thinking Limited are on LinkedIn. Fliss short for Felicity Berridge. Wonderful. And as for me, you can find me, Laura Watkins, on LinkedIn, on 11fs.com, or subscribe to Fintech Insider. I'll probably be on there somewhere. Um and that wraps up today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to today's show. If you like what you've heard, please make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform of choice. And if you really like what you've heard, why not share the podcast [music] with a colleague or friend. And as always, if you want to join the conversation, find us on social media.

51:48 Just search for 11FS or Fintech Insider or email me and the team at podcasts@11fs.com. Thanks again and [music] goodbye.