How to move toward anti-racism with Kerry Cavers

0:00 [Music] hello and welcome to the your parenting Mojo podcast you're in for a very different kind of conversation today than the ones that we normally have on the show when my book Parenting Beyond power launched in September of 2023 I decided to go on a little mini book tour of the West Coast just to kick things off and I started in Vancouver because there was a Core group of listeners up

0:31 there who really wanted me to come up there first and I decided that I didn't want to just do the usual book tour thing of going to sign books and read in bookstores I wanted to convene panel events because I wanted to develop relationships with people who were on the ground doing work locally and to bring some of the benefits of kind of being in community to those folks as well and so I decided to convene a panel

0:56 event in each of the main cities that I visited and Carrie cavers who leads moms Against Racism Canada gracefully agreed to join the panel event in Vancouver and so we had an event there and then we kind of hid it off and we decided to get together again she lives in Victoria but she had a couple days until her fairy back so we got together in one of her friends Gardens for a very informal chat and at the time I didn't actually

1:23 realize that this was going to be a podcast episode I actually kind of thought we were mostly doing her a favor because we could talk about her and her work and that maybe we could cut those videos for her and we could uh she she could use them as a way to communicate the work that she's doing to funders so I saw it mostly as a thank you to her for participating in the panel event and

1:43 then once we actually got into the conversation I realized just what a pot of gold that we had and I wanted to share that with you so we're releasing this as a formal episode obviously because I didn't think it was going to be an episode I went in with a very different set of questions that I would have done otherwise and I didn't really have the sort of take-home messages that I would normally make sure that we have

2:04 for you so I followed up with Carrie afterwards and she uh very kindly provided overd delivered as Carrie always does with a quite a lengthy list of ways that you can begin to take anti-racist action in your life so she wasn't able to record it for us so I will go ahead and read it at the end of this episode so sit back enjoy the conversation and I'll see you again at the end hi I'm Jen Luman of the your

2:28 parenting Mojo podcast and yesterday in Vancouver we had an awesome inaugural cultural talks event and Carrie cavers of moms Against Racism was a panelist in that event and we had so much fun we decided we would come back and do another iteration today so we're here to have a chat welcome Carrie it's great to see you thank you it's great to be here so could you tell me maybe a little bit about um who who you

2:52 are what's moms Against Racism what's the work you do uh well um my name is Carrie cavers uh my pronouns are she her hers and um I am the founder of moms Against Racism Canada so we are a nonprofit organization that has the mission to educate moms and anybody in a mothering role so uh teachers caregivers um educating them around uh anti-racism

3:22 decolonization and cultural competence so that they can then have the tools and the support to dismantle racism within themselves and to bring that to their families and out into their Community as well so we've been around for three years we're kind of a baby nonprofit we're growing but we do have about 2 200 members uh across Canada and we're mostly an online community of of people

3:52 and we do lots of great events so we have um Co coffee chats like this every month to be able to talk about things that have come up at home or at school and how do we address this how do we talk to our kids about this what kind of language can we use uh and then we also have more Community type events where we're we're building those relationships and those connections with each other so we both have um you know bipo or black

4:24 indigenous moms of color in the group as well as a a large membership base of white moms who are in there wanting to do their own unlearning as well and so it's it's a really unique community in that um we are living those white like the anti-oppression anti-white supremacy values and are really working hard to create a space that is safe for learning

4:56 um and that people can lean in and be vulnerable and do that hard work so how did moms Against Racism get started uh that is a really great question um so kind of long answer uh I grew up in a town that was very white and uh I had the experience of being one of the ones in my school and I experienced you know racism all throughout growing up and

5:28 some of them being more um overt so more inyour face kind of things and uh like one of my first instance I tell the story is when I was about seven or eight I had gone to a birthday party and so it was all you know kids of the neighborhood and it's every kid's favorite part of a birthday is the birthday cake and so is really super excited to get a piece of birthday cake and um all of the kids were handed out a

5:58 piece of cake at except for me and I asked the the birthday kiddo you know like oh you know in my mind thinking there's another cake that's going to come and I asked you know can I have a piece of cake and they said no and I asked why and they said well you're black and yeah it was one of those things that like at the time I being biracial growing up with my mom I didn't

6:28 really fully understand what that meant but what I took away was that you're other you're wrong there's something you know wrong with you and it wasn't until like a little bit later that I started really understanding that Division and it makes sense uh when you look at like the stages of development and and uh racial identity that that that would be happening around that time for me um and so like other things living with my white Mom I had the paper

6:57 boy who constantly told me that I was a adopted to the point where I questioned my mom if I was adopted and for for years I wasn't confident uh in her response and you know other things like that are coming out uh I had some friends in high school who were a little bit older than me so coming out of my classroom meeting up with them and then one of them saying to me oh like we

7:25 talked about you in English class today I like what what you mean and they're like oh well we we're reading this book that has this um black character in it and they're experiencing racism and we were wondering like talking about what your experience might have been like and that was mortifying to me at that time because I was like I there's Boys in that class that I like why are they talking about me uh but like on a bigger

7:53 scale just to to be objectified in that way um was really hard and so that's kind of the basis of it but for me uh like the start I should say of how this organization started but I just tried to fly under the radar and just fit in as as best as I could and so I've always been open to talking about my experiences but never really pushing

8:24 the envelope until I had kids because everything changes when you have kids and so my my partner my husband he is white uh like white white and um I realized that like for for us and his family that a lot of comments were going to come and because genetics are wild you never know what your babies are going to be born presenting us we started having

8:58 more conversations and I started having more conversations with the mom friends that I was collecting to and as it turns out our first is white presenting and then I have three my middle is black presenting and my youngest is white presenting which PR like brings its own wonderful stranger random comments uh to our family but in 2020 when George Floyd

9:28 was murdered I had a lot of my mom friends reach out to me and they were starting to ask some deeper questions and at the time I don't know if it was like the weight of that intergenerational trauma but it felt really heavy and so I was like you know I want to be able to hold space for these conversations because they're important conversations but it's also really emotionally draining for me so I'm just going to go ahead and I'm going to start

9:57 a little Facebook group just for me and like 30 of my mom friends no big deal uh and then I only have to answer the question once so I was really trying to reduce my workload here in this um and so and then I went to bed and I woke up the next day and I had 140 people in the group and it was a really pivotal moment because I had some decisions to make and so I decided I was like okay you know

10:26 I've I've talked with groups this size for we can do this and so I closed down the group to be private and then there was a backup of 1500 people either requesting to join or being invited by their friends and it felt like a real turning point in this it felt like kind of the first time for me anyway that people were taking it seriously and were ready to have these

10:58 conversations and so from there I then like very early on was asked to speak on a panel about uh racism and education and then we were part of an advocacy campaign a letter writing campaign and the membership just grew and so it was in you know with the words of Bob Ross it was a Happ accident that uh Mars started and it really has been this beautiful organic uh process which I think has

11:29 lent has allowed us to really um embody those antioppressive principles and values in the space because all of the programs that we take on is based upon our volunteers were 100% volunteer run all moms Educators like the busiest people in the world all people who have so much uh conditioning to

12:02 unlearn and so we do it in a very messy way we do more in a very loving messy way in that you have capacity to do this great but we're not we don't want you to burn out so long I'm longwinded but that is how Mar uh came to be so I I really feel that it was just me kind of going along for the ride with how things developed yeah I want to come back to that

12:29 messiness but firstly I just want to acknowledge we're in Vancouver right we're in Canada so as far as I know Canada never had slavy is that right that is incorrect that is incorrect okay great so um so obviously in the US we had a long history with it um and I think that we can trace a lot of the challenges we have today back to that and I think a lot of Americans if I can sort of put myself in that shoes is we

12:56 we we look at Canada and we're like ah you know they don't have the same challenges that we do and so from what I understand from having been here for a little bit that that is not necessarily the case it just shows up differently so can you help us understand how does it show up here yeah most definitely so there there is that Dynamic and even up here in Canada we're like well at least we're not the US

13:18 right which becomes a protective strategy from actually having to look and do any of the work so for us our can and we we're very polite Canadians are very polite uh and we were conditioned like my generation and and prior that we are a multiculturalism Haven right we are inclusive of all people which is not true and we kind of have this feeling that we just fell into racism as it is

13:52 but when you actually look back our our nation was founded upon and built built upon um genocide of indigenous peoples uh enslavement of uh African people uh the the like with building the railway like the Chinese hent Hax exclusionary immigration laws um and so we we're just kind of quieter about it

14:23 and one of the things to remember too is that the US has 10 times the population that Canada has so almost all of the people who live within Canada could fit within California so even just by volume there's more happening in the US so it seems more egregious but we have the same kinds of things here too we have you know black people who are disproportionately targeted by the police um we have

14:55 Wellness checks that actually end up in situations of death for indigenous communities and we have you know I think it's right now the number is 25 different First Nations that don't have clean drinking water and this is all like policy type stuff so a lot of it is it's through legislation so a lot of people are like well that's just how it is but we then go back and think about like well who wrote These policies and

15:27 legislation and what was their lens and and so much of it was written to benefit those first um European settlers who came over so for us like with enslavement we had like much of the people who came over and that were enslaved did end up in the US and then we have this story of like oh we're the hero with the like the underground Railway but what actually happened was

15:57 many people might migrated up and just found very similar conditions here um and we were like there's we're like you say we're in Vancouver so um demographically speaking we have more um people of the African diaspora on the east coast of Canada because of that slave trade route um and it becomes less and less black the more and more West

16:28 you get and which is an interesting um dynamic because then racism shows up very differently Province by province so we have like micro um environments and so the experiences vary so from mine of more polite racism I think like for me the most over violent that I've experienced was we had our van keyed um

17:01 because myself and another racialized person I suspect were seen exiting the van and so someone keed our van um but there's still [Music] like things aren't necessarily getting better and people are becoming more and more Brazen with their racism and and their views and so

17:32 my concern for physical safety continues to increase for myself for my kids um so we're not we're not that much different yeah okay and so you mentioned sort of this messy unlearning which I think a lot of it has to happen with white people right we're the ones who have to do the bulk of the unlearning and so what is does that look like when somebody's associated with moms Against Racism right when they join the group

18:03 what what happens what what are we unlearning and how are we un learning it it's yeah so I I agree with you I think there's work that white people need to do and they're unlearning and then there's work that racialized people need to do too so I'll talk about that in a sec but when with Mar like there's a there's a lot of people who do this work in various different ways and um you know I I have mentioned

18:32 yesterday I'm not a front lines person I'm not a a a holding the sign protest person I don't like crowds um and so but I love the people who are those people that can go and do that and that's the way that they want to do this work and I and I say that because there are a lot of racialized people who hold the opinion that we that we need to be more aggressive with white

19:03 people on this that we don't want to coddle them or uh be mindful of their feelings and and I can respect where they're coming from because they they have intergenerationally within their own lifetimes experienced a lot of stuff and they're done and I and I appreciate that from the science that I understand about learning is that you know when somebody is in a fear

19:34 State when they're feeling activated they're not taking in any new information right you get the amydala hijack and that's it uh and we see that with the with the fragility that happens and pops up and the defensiveness and So within Mar we are really focused on it's a learning space right we know people are going to mess up we know people are going to ask a question and there's going to be people who go but we're going to like take a moment

20:06 and be like hey actually you want to use this language or I see where you might be perpetuating something or you have a bias that needs to be addressed just by the way that you're framing this and it's it we are really focused on calling people in and coming alongside them with their learning and that is not for everyone it's not there's there are some white people who that is not for for a variety of reasons uh and there's some

20:37 racialized people who it's harmful for them to be in that space and I very much respect that but that's the how Mar is different and that's kind of like on our highway to racial Justice that's our lane um and then if I may on with the race people needing to do the work like we live in a white supremacy Society right like as you talk about we are we

21:07 are conditioned with many different oppressive systems and that it doesn't escape us either it just shows up in different ways yeah racialized people we have our work to do to like we there are some people who have the privilege of growing up in families that are uh deeply connected to culture that they've been able to have these conversations uh before and are very

21:38 grounded in their understanding of racism and how it impacts them but there is a large uh population of racialized people who haven't had that privilege of being so grounded and especially here um when we have so many uh people who have brought their families here over the generations and Canada is really a country of assimilation right so come in come be part of our M multiculturalism

22:08 Mosaic but like don't bring your culture too much right and so there's a lot of people My Generation if you don't talk about it it's not happening right doesn't exist it doesn't exist and I want I want you have better experience than me and so people have lost Lang languages they've lost connection to culture they are not understanding what racism is microaggressions are and they're simultaneously doing this on learning the same time that white people

22:39 are doing this un learning and so it is really messy because there's often times especially for racialized people who are in workplaces who are now prioritizing this because there's a lot of people who are having these conversations that they'll get tokenized or or there's an assumption that they can just speak to this and that can create a lot of feelings of shame because they they don't want to say well no I don't know

23:10 or I'm just learning this too so you know and and within racialized communities we we gatekeep each other we do oppression Olympics or you know the colorism that happens and so there's unlearning to be done on both sides and with that there is humility and Grace that needs to be shown both sides and I really feel that

23:41 relationship is the way out of this right it's like all of these systems have been created to break that down and so if we can do this work individually alongside each other an together we can start building those relationships yeah I'm curious about whether your mom talked with you about racism not at all not at all no no I so my mom had a whole host of challenges of

24:13 her own that created a very um chaotic environment for me growing up and I wasn't that connected to my my dad or my dad's side of the family so I had no real um connection to my culture um I remember so I but but it's it was in me and so like I would see things and I would gravitate to things like I gravitated to the the black TV shows

24:45 that were on at the time in the 80s and gravitated towards like In Living Color and I wanted to be a fly girl so bad and so much so that like I told my mom I was like I want and but I didn't have the the words right and so really what I wanted was to go and do hipop class and so I was like Mom sign me up for dance and so they put me in dance and then I

25:08 would got into like jazz ballet and it was a raindrop I was like I was so mad like what is this nonsense um and like a variety of other things where I I tried to connect but it just it wasn't it wasn't there and you know for for my for my mom being a white person that was a really big gap on her

25:39 part despite the fact that I don't know if she would have ever been able to get there just based on who she is but like I do I see a lot of families where there's either one white parent or maybe two white parents and they've adopted that because of white supremacy there is that nonrecognition of the whiteness identity and the and the how it is the been the default or the the normal um

26:12 and that there needs to be mindfulness there needs to be intentionality in uring that that child knows all the parts of them and and coupled with that the the the white savior so under white supremacy that way of thinking of like I'm the best I know best um I'm going to come in and save the day because I save you from yourself

26:46 essentially which creates um a a a a a chasm in identity uh which is something that I I have been working really hard as an adult now to to bridge that and to to heal those parts of myself and to really like um get to know who I am and everything that makes me me

27:16 yeah so you've read Parenting Beyond power and I guess I'm curious as to how it landed for you um I think it is a book that every parent should read I really do um I myself I have some strong willed very spirited uh outside the box thinker kind of kids uh and so I've been on this journey for a while of like how do I best support my

27:47 kids meet them where they're at uh and so I've read a bunch of different parenting books like I I see some congruency with like the explosive child in that framework of let's treat our children like little humans uh which I really really appreciate but with Parenting Beyond power what I love about it is bringing in those systems of Oppression that whether we know it or not have a huge

28:20 impact on our lives and the relationships that we have with our kiddos and I think it both gives parents and caregivers the permission [Music] to put down some of that guilt and responsibility for the patterns that they may have gotten into with their kids and be able to say oh okay there's something bigger at play

28:54 here and that like being able to it's and it's not even like Shifting the blame but it there's like a a an accountability that doesn't fully rest on our shoulders of what how the systems the generation the parenting that we've gone through um and it it it you invite people in a very non-blaming non-confrontational way to it have a

29:24 look at this and like I I think it is like I I love the book and I know sorry I'm rambling I'm gashing I know it's it it must bring up a whole bunch of feelings for you I would assume being someone who is white writing a book like this um and I think it's really important to to hear this from

29:55 racialized voices and to hear this from White voices because you are going to speak in a way tell a story in a way share your own experiences in a way that people are going to connect to that they wouldn't necessarily connect to when I if I were to share a story that way so I think it's really important and I think it's really important for a white people to say look I'm doing this work and I'm surviving like I haven't

30:25 fallen apart right uh and and so I really I love the book I love the book thank you that means a lot to me and there are some people who say that a white person shouldn't write this book and so I I definitely struggled with that and I think that the the key thing that made me want to write it was absolutely we have to read and support the work of bipot writers and I haven't seen a book that talks about what is

30:56 essential doing anti-racist work right uh from a perspective that's different than talking with your child about race which we have to do right we can never ever stop doing that but if we are talking and we're having the conversations we're reading the books we're doing those things and then we're turning around using our power over our child to get them to do what we want them to do then I mean anyone who's ever sworn in front of their child knows that

31:22 if you then tell them not to swear they don't take the lesson of your words right they take the lesson of your Deeds your actions so it was really important to me to to not just have the background of why is this important but then and what do we do about it where do we go from here so I'm also wondering is are there aspects of the the tools part of the book that that landed for you in a

31:47 way that other resources haven't that you've been able to use maybe since you've been reading them could you tell us about that yeah uh so I will admit that with it with reading the book If for me it was a simultaneously reparenting healing part of myself uh as well as examining how I'm showing up in the interactions with my kids and I there's a part in the book

32:18 where you talk about needs right and it's very Central uh to this in finding everybody's needs and the like what is it that I need and I had to really sit with that and I really appreciated the the the like the resources and listing out the different needs uh because that was really helpful because it it felt overwhelming when when for someone who like the way that I grew up and how I am

32:49 now of you know I often put other people's needs in in front of mine and even just like but there was a time when I was was really mindful of like setting boundaries and not putting someone's needs in front of mine but life happens right and having three kids and trying to manage a household and sometimes we just lose ourselves in that to make sure that everything else is working and so when I got to that point in the book it

33:17 it like made me stop and I was like I really need to connect back in with this and just that reframe of how to have that conversation about like what my needs are and modeling that for my kids like I it I really like that and I really liked the cupcake and being able to you know have those and and having that conversation and that relationship with with your child and it's it's you are having the conversation you're modeling

33:48 it to them you're also like learning about them they're feeling seen and heard and you're feeling seen and heard and then you have that and you can refer back to to it and for me visuals I love visuals I need visuals and my kids do too so like using that with them it's and we we've just started but already has been helpful in just being like Oh like are we you know are we talking about the Cherry are we talking about

34:16 the icing like where are we and things um so I I yeah it's it's been great I love it can you tell us about an example of a situation where it seemed like maybe there was conflict and and no way to meet both people's needs maybe you maybe you and a child and you realize oh we're actually fighting about Strate strategies here and if we can think about this the level of needs then we can find a way to meet both of our needs

34:40 does something come to mind um let me think so yes so my I I'm so what I'm thinking about right now is what would my kids be okay with me sharing sure so I just want to make sure like I'm being respectful of them if you want to pause and think about it and then you can answer me and I can ask the question again no no it's okay I got it um so my my daughter she

35:09 uh is just about to turn six so she's going into grade one um and she right now like going back to school it's a transition it's a little bit scary uh and so we've been working together on what would be what she needs to be able to stay for the full day and there was and for me like because I'm working I need to be able to do a fast drop off and get back to work

35:42 and you know get on to my emails and everything like that so uh there was a level of impatience that I was having but I also recognized that I want to be there for her and be supportive but I couldn't figure out what it was for her that was the challenge and so and last year for kindergarten like we did the surfboard carry in sometimes of you know really upset and and she will always like after

36:12 she's there settle in and be okay so for this time we were you know I was very fumbly trying to put these things into practice but was just talking with her of like you know what's what are you feeling what are you feeling in your body and you know what do you need and we were in we were in the classroom at that point and and she was able to tell me for the kind of the first time she's

36:37 like it's all the kids in they looking at me and I I I'm feeling like scared and I need you there because you help me feel safe uh and so and like I on some level I knew that right and so then we could could talk about how to make her feel safe so she now has uh an emotional uh support dog stuffy that she brings with her and we've been able to

37:08 connect with the teacher and so we do a pass off the teacher like physical touch to physical touch with the teacher so she feels safe she feels that someone has her back and that like in such a short amount of time we've been able to move forward faster than you know different tools and strategies that we were trying last year and she's a little bit older too so that's helpful as well but I think really being able

37:39 to find that need and address that need and also giving her options so we talked about okay like I can we I can stay longer for a drop off and then you stay the whole day or we can do a faster drop off and I pick you up early so also give giving her some autonomy in that of what would meet her needs yeah and and it's so I think it's so profound to just understand oh this is a need for safety

38:08 and the strategies we can use to address that are very different than they would be if she had a different need yes and so we stopped just throwing spaghetti at the wall and trying everything under the sun and we're actively looking for how can we help you to feel safe Y which then enables you to meet your need for competence in your work yes yes yes competence was a high need of mine as it turns out yes yeah I can imagine have asked me

38:34 a bunch of questions and so I want to know like aside from writing the book like why why do culture talks like this seems like a very different way of going out and connecting with people and talking about your book as opposed to doing like a book tour mhm yeah I I think it was sort of the intersection of seeing the challenges of my neurodivergence and wanting to work with

39:07 that and also knowing that the story is so much larger than Parenting Beyond power um and so you know having a stage by myself it's kind of scary having a stage with four or five other people a lot less scary and so there was that aspect of it and then you know if going to be coming into these communities and talking about local situations I mean frankly I don't know that much about the work that's happening locally but there is amazing

39:36 work that's happening locally and I really wanted to be able to Showcase that and to support the folks on the panel the folks in the audience the really to for everybody to make connections and I was really happy to see some of that happening in the event that we had yesterday where people we we saw two people who who live two blocks down the street from each other and had no idea and they just met and now

40:01 they're going to get together and some of the panelists making plans to get together and have coffee together and so if if if nothing else happens amazing community and connections have already been made and in addition I think that the audience members now see the panelists in a different way than they saw before right they see you in a different way than they've seen you before they are connecting your work and connecting the dots on that to the work

40:28 that other people are doing as well and how that shows up in different kinds of issues that maybe they hadn't considered before as being related to the work that you do and so it's really about moving beyond our silos right we have this idea that well it's my book and I'm gonna do this thing and it's all going to be about my thing and I'm like that's that's white supremacy right suprem is my way of going about it so do I want to

40:54 be part of perpetuating this system that I'm trying to work on dismantling or can I imagine a way that shares the audience that shares the thinking that shares the ideas that shares the passion and the relationships with a broader group of people so that we can all benefit from that we can all learn from each other and support each other's work and so I think you know that's why we're sitting here today is because we had the opportunity to be

41:24 together on the panel and then saw another way that we could work together that can support both of us and so I hope to replicate this not in its exact Forum but with different topics with different people working on different areas of these issues in many different cities around the US Canada other places maybe even further than that uh in the long term so yeah it's it's really sort of seeing it as part of of a movement

41:57 part part of a broader conversation that's happening in the world about these really challenging social issues so um so so I asked you to to be on this panel and I will never forget the way you responded actually so I wonder if you remember the way you responded and I'm also curious as to why did you agree to do this why did you say yes so I being in this space now um will get

42:27 a lot of requests to come and and talk and be somewhere um and often times I can tell it's really just a checkbox you know the way that it it's been phrased or asked I can tell that an individual has not done much work they're not really valuing the weight of the situation and and the way that your uh

42:59 email came in your request came in and how full suome it was and all the details and for me what I appreciated the most was the vulnerability that came through from you of you had an awareness of your social location um so your privilege intersecting with the variety of you know other things that you have going on what you're trying to accomplish and

43:30 being up like you there was nothing to hide right I could it was very transparent and then adding in the pages of the book to give me a preview I felt fully supported in that I felt like you had thought through how you were going to keep me safe how um you were going to ensure sure that it was a respectful environment in

44:01 in all of these kinds of things so like I felt no hesitancy in saying yes okay and so what made it be an event that you wanted to do right you invited to so many events why this one instead of a different one given H you limited your time yes um so for me what the book was bed on is very much the work I see our membership needing to

44:31 do for M for the mothering people who are in our our part of our group uh it really is that untangling of those systems and how that shows up in parenting because it we my thing for Mar is people who are embodying anti- racism and if as parents we're not tackling some of these bigger

45:01 ways that it shows up for us in the power struggles that we have because that power struggle is what keeps all of these systems of Oppression in place we're not going to do it and so I felt like there's a natural alignment with what you were doing being able to come and connect with some other people who are doing fantastic things as well uh was of interest to me because it can get lonely being someone who is

45:33 pushing that boulder up the hill and so connecting with like-minded people um was a draw for me and then just being in a space of community and talking about this it's my jam I love it so you know when when all of those things were in place it felt like a really special opportunity to participate in something I think that the Universe blesses us in different ways and one of

46:03 those blessings has been getting to know you uh I'm very grateful that you reached out to invite me to participate in this and I hope that we can continue uh working together and you know I just one of the the things that I've been thinking about and just wondering is like what of doing this work that you do with the book and the podcast and bringing people together to have these conversations like how does that fill your cup like

46:34 what do you love the most about that I think that learning about my uh White Privilege learning about patriarchy learning about how capitalism has impacted us was something that it's like one of those things that once you know it you can't unknow it and once I know something like that it's really hard for me to turn away from it and to not do everything in my capacity

47:06 to do something that really I hope makes a profound impact in the world and I think my thinking about my needs my need to matter right to do something that leaves the world in a better place than I found it is really really strong and so the the form that that takes is going to vary right sometimes it's going to be a panel discussion through culture talks sometimes it's going to be listening to a podcast episode or write you know

47:34 reading writing a book and and those messages can come in different ways for different people who learn in different ways and who you know want to be in community in different ways and and really I'm just trying to provide options for other folks to learn the same things I have learned and the impact that this has had on us right this is this has affected all of us it has affected some of us way more and in

47:57 way different ways but it has affected me too uh it has hurt me too it has stolen things from me too and so when I think when people see that when they understand that they're going to be more willing to come on this journey and to walk with us right I'm not a person who's figured this out and fixed it even in my own life never mind you know any anywhere further than that but it's more

48:22 finding people to walk on this journey with to together I really think is how the work happens and and how it gets done and how we change these systems so that we can move toward a world where everybody belongs where nobody has to hide a part of themselves because they feel ashamed of it that they won't be loved and accepted for who they really are if they show that part of themselves that we can just be our whole selves and know that

48:51 that will be seen and respected and understood and loved that's what I'm working towards for myself for my daughter for yourself for your kids for all of our kids so that we can create that world together beautiful and it will be enough I hope so thank you it's a real honor to speak with you and be here with you oh thank you so much I love it I hope you enjoyed listening to that

49:23 conversation as much as I enjoyed having it it was a real pleasure and a privilege to meet Carrie and to get to dive a little bit deeper into her background and all of the things that she's accomplished through moms Against Racism Canada I wanted to conclude with the list of actions that she sent me and before I say that I just wanted to say I'm going to pretty much give you her words unedited so um this obviously is

49:47 when I present a list of actions that you can consider taking then it's it's one person's view right of actions that we can take and this is K's view so there are some things on here that other people would say are not necessarily the the primary thing you should be focusing on uh an example of that might might be land acknowledgements right which is where you are looking to understand whose land you are on when you're living

50:11 and working and to verbally acknowledge that so I've written land acknowledgements I have one on the your parenting Mojo website there's one in Parenting Beyond power as well and uh but there's also a very different perspective that says that land acknowledgements are very formative and are not actually very useful so um so so just kind of take this as a a list of things that you can try and I also just want to be clear that this is not sort

50:34 of a checklist of things that you go through and do once and call it done and now that you're an anti-racist uh Ally these are things that you can do on a continuous basis so that you can uh continue moving your journey forward and know that the journey will never be over so without further Ado here are some suggestions that you can use to progress from bystander to upstander to Ally and to accomplice and what your next

51:00 anti-racist parenting step will be is very much dependent on where you actually are in your understanding and practice many of us perceive ourselves to be much further along than we really are because that's how we want others to perceive us as well so once again don't think of this as a checklist these are not things you do once and they're done forever they ideas for practices you can try today and on an ongoing basis and Carrie adds that both white parents and

51:26 racialized parents can undertake these actions because we all have learning and healing to do so if all of this is new to you the ideas that you heard in this episode are very new to you some things that you can do are reflection and journaling to become aware of your racist biases and beliefs and you can do that by embracing the fact that you hold internalized racist beliefs you can accept that racism exists that it is in all of our

51:54 systems in our media in our Sports in our parenting books in everything that we do if you are white acknowledge that you have white privilege and whether you like it or not you benefit from our racist systems take note of your thoughts and impulses around bip people are you comfortable or uncomfortable what is the narrative or the story that is fueling that feeling what is your first response to stories and accounts of racism are you disbelieving do you feel the need to

52:23 reserve judgment do you make excuses or apologies for the racist behavior and then the next section for if you're not comfortable with the idea that you have internalized racism start by diving into some learning staying open and curious about your beliefs and unlearning you might find Historical accounts written by indigenous and black people to counter The Narrative that you were taught you can read books on anti-racism and decolonization written by black and Indigenous authors talk to

52:53 friends about race and racism talk to your children about what they're learning or not learning at school ask them what they think or how they feel about current events research whose traditional territory you live on learn about them and write a personal land acknowledgement look for racism in headlines articles or even the whole publication go back and revisit events in recent history to see if you view them differently now black and Indigenous protests government policies or campaigns school events or spirit

53:23 days Etc attend courses and workshops by bipo presenters read racially and culturally diverse children's books with your kids and use that as a starting point for conversations next if you've done a lot of literature learning already then Carrie says it's time to start experiential learning broadening your exposure to the world that exists outside of your own culture so make friends with bipo people watch movies and shows created by pipo that feature bipo listen to music from around the

53:55 world world eat food from different cultures attend cultural events that you've never been to before virtually and in person do a diversity book audit and replace all your white Centric books with books featuring main characters or all characters of different races and gender identification and abilities and then finally it's time to take action and set yourself up for the long run so practice having consistent conversations with your kids about race racism and white supremacy find friends

54:26 or groups who you can take this journey with and schedule monthly time to move yourself forward support and action doing this work like moms Against Racism as an Engaged member or with financial donations as a volunteer or all of the above check in with your Children's Schools or child care to see what actions they are taking to incorporate anti-racism into their curriculum you can buy a diverse book bundle for your child's teacher or school and moms Against Racism can

54:52 facilitate that for you if you'd like or donate diverse books to the school library attend the School parent advisory meetings and speak up when there are plans that may be exclusionary or discriminatory back up the racialized folks who speak up if financially feasible for you find a therapist that resonates with you to help you work through your own personal trauma triggers and limiting beliefs anti-racism work will bring to the surface what you need to process and

55:17 heal make sure you're well supported to help your own healing and then Carrie concludes by saying you can do this we are living in a time where information is literally at our fingertips there are multitudes of book and podcast lists to help you in your learning and Eventbrite and Facebook make finding workshops easy you just have to commit and we actually have a PDF of all of these actions that Carrie mentioned so that you can print

55:43 it out and refer back to it over and over again at your parenting mojo.com marm for moms Against Racism