How to get noticed by PM hiring managers in 2026

0:00 Welcome everyone watching live and also those joining in the future. Really excited for the session today with my friends Hillary and Nikki. yeah, welcome. How are you two doing today? >> Doing great. How about you? >> Aside from my wet foot problem, I'm doing fantastic. >> Yeah, in the pre-recording for those watching in the future. Hillary got some water before the session and her slippers. So she she she does not wear socks in her slippers. I I am wearing slippers with socks right now and I don't know which one of us is the weird one. So maybe we could pull the audience at some point. but you are currently with wet slippers which hopefully won't impact the performance of the session.

0:38 >> No, it'll be great. I'm really glad we got that on the record though. >> Yeah. you're you're dipping the toes in the water so it's good. >> great. So let's see. welcome everyone. I think let's see. I'm going to share my screen. This will be mostly a conversation. At some points, we'll share some stuff visually, but I think what would make this best is really keeping this conversational and engaging. So, let me go ahead and start with some housekeeping.

1:15 One moment. Okay. Hillary Nikki, can I get a thumbs up? You see see our opening slide? Yep, let me see it. >> Cool. All right, so today we're going to talk about how to get noticed by PM hiring managers in this year we just kicked off 2026. why 2026? It's dynamic. The advice for last year might not be the same as the advice for this year and might be different than the advice for next year. So, I think this is a point in time. It's a very evolving situation, let's say, and we wanted to do our best to share with this audience what we are seeing in the market. from our different vantage points which we will get into shortly but really excited for the session.

1:59 Some housekeeping before we get started. This talk will be recorded and emailed to everyone who signed up. So even if you have to drop at some point or you joined halfway you'll be able to kind of get this recording link usually within 24 hours after this. and watch at your leisure and share it with people if you thought it was valuable. There's a lot to cover here so we are going to probably go pretty quickly. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of questions.

2:22 We do have the chat in Zoom. you can feel free to drop questions in the chat. No guarantees we're going to be able to see them until we get to the Q&A at the end. I personally want to be really present in the conversation with Nikki and Hillary. So maybe we could just kind of make the assumption that the the Q&A at the end is the best time to drop questions. And everyone here should stay muted ideally if someone does unmute.

2:44 probably going to mute you again in case it's interruptive. so please just be mindful of the recording quality as you choose to engage with audio settings. great. Actually, one more housekeeping thing. It's not on the slide, but something I've learned is kind of helpful. sometimes people use the Zoom chat to like promote their LinkedIn or like drive traffic to stuff. My I would please ask if people do not use the the Zoom chat for that purpose. on this call. Someone wants to drop where they're dialing in from, that's always cool to kind of see where people are from, but let's just hold off on the the networking. No worries at all to the person that already did it. Just definitely not targeting you. but I just wanted to to call that out. All right.

3:27 So, who who are we? we'll go around really quickly and just kind of provide a little bit of context on who each of us are and why we might have, you know, something valuable to add to the discussion around interviews. So, my name is Ben. I've I've been a product manager for over 10 years. The last couple years I've spent largely in the PM interview space with my Maven course. I've developed some resources like AI co-pilots that help people get ready for interviews. I've done some fractional product work in the last couple years and just and a lot of coaching, a lot of one-on-one coaching with people. And I like to think I have a very good pulse specifically on the the PM like the tech, you know, PM hiring market at the moment. And so wanted to bring a little bit of my my experience from what I'm hearing from a lot of candidates in the market at the moment to this conversation. And Nikki, you want to go next and maybe talk a little bit about, you know, your experience over the last few years with PM Hiring?

4:19 >> Yeah. well, hey everyone. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Nikki. currently I'm a director of product at Duolingo. and I'd like to think of myself as an experienced hiring manager as Ben has outlined there. I've been hiring I've been in manager roles in product for probably about 12 years of my career. I think 15 total in consumer product roles. and so I've hired I've probably been on thousands of interviews at this point. and Duolingo I think has maybe one of the most rigorous hiring processes that I've ever seen. And so generally I'm excited to kind of talk about that and just talk about some of the trends I'm seeing as you know AI has entered the chat.

4:54 has really changed how we're all thinking about hiring today. So we'll get into it but that's a little bit about me. Amazing. Thanks for that. Hillary, you want to go next? >> Sure. Hi everyone. I'm Hillilary. Really excited to talk to you all today. until about a week ago, I was the head of core product at Whoop. I recently left to sort of pursue my own thing. but I've been a hiring manager for many years. I've been at at bigger companies at startups. I've seen super rigorous processes. I've seen extremely unrigorous processes. I've really seen it all. and as Nikki said, have noticed that even in the past 6 months, the game has just completely changed.

5:33 and I think the advice that I give people today in some ways is similar, but in some ways is very different than the advice I would have given them a year or two years ago. in terms of how to get noticed and stand out. So excited to share that with you all today. >> Cool. Cool. So, thank you both for being here. I'm really pumped for this. so yeah, like why we're here is because this market's going to be really competitive this year. It's already been competitive. 2025 was a story of lots of people who thought they were going to have an easy time in the market. I think not getting the progress that they wanted. A lot of us who did a lot of PM interviews most recently call it in the ZERP era somewhere between 2010 to 2021 or something like that kind of area era experienced like a crazy pull from the hiring side. they're basic there wasn't enough ability to like companies could not get enough talent.

6:26 They're just gobbling it up and they wanted just like an insatiable amount of demand for talent and so people had a lot of opportunities and a lot of offers and then now they go back to the market and they're just seeing like wow like this is way different than last time I went through this. So, we want to bring some of the perspective, that we have on, you know, basically how that hiring bar has shifted and what helps people stand out. And we're not really going to get into like interview strategy. So, basically, you know, once you've landed the interview and getting ready for the on-site and those kind of things that will fall outside of the scope of the things that we talk about today. It's mostly about opening doors and standing out.

7:04 I'd say this session should be particularly relevant to people PM seeking a new role actively. APM that might PMs that maybe have a role or thinking ahead to a job search in 6 to 12 months and just like some people who might be trying to break into product management. It's really tricky. it's always been really tricky to break in but everyone's had to do it. Very few people start in product management although it does happen. but I think there's there's some advice we might have for people like that.

7:30 I think we're going to start by setting the stage about why exactly that old job search playbook no longer works and then get into talking a little bit about what those real signals look like to the hiring managers. Like what people like Hillary and Nikki over the last couple years were really looking for in the folks that they were evaluating or at least like screening and kind of how to get through the noise, how to how to really stand out. All right. So, with that said, I'm going to pause here on the screen sharing and we're going to shift into discussion. and I'd love to kind of kick this off with with a question and the question is going to be yeah, why is the old playbook for kind of getting in the door not as relevant as it used to be? Or what about it has changed? whichever of you whoever wants to go first, I'll let you take a take a stab and then we could riff on that a little bit and before we get into what people can do about it.

8:31 >> Want me to start? >> Yeah, go for it. >> Some hot takes. So, I think there's two things. I think one the the most immediate hardest problem is that AI has really lowered the bar for how hard it is to do the things that used to like make you stand out. So, you used to be able to write a really good cover letter and do cold outreach and get somebody's attention just by being really thoughtful. and I used to be like a huge proponent of cold outreach.

8:59 I thought it was super effective if you could do that well. But AI makes that pretty easy. Like anyone can go into Chat GPT now and put my LinkedIn in the job and their resume and say, "Write this person a a cold email that's going to get their attention." And so I'm just like flooded with the kind of outreach that used to stop me in my tracks. So I think that that is one part of it that makes it really hard. another part is u as Ben said like there was sort of this flood of talent in the past 10 years or so and a lot of people have lost jobs. A lot of teams have just gotten a lot leaner. So there are way more PMs out there looking for jobs than there used to be. and so as a hiring manager, it's way easier to find the person who has like the exact experience that you're looking for of like, okay, I want somebody who has worked at companies of this size in this type of role in the consumer space focused on health and wellness. that used to be harder to find than it is today. But then I think the third thing that kind of makes all of this even more complicated is the old playbook of how to do the job doesn't even really hold up anymore. So like product management in a lot of places certainly at Whoop has changed dramatically in the last year two years and over the next year two years from here I think the job will be unrecognizable with a lot of the prototyping tools and PMS just having way more capability to work in adjacent swim lanes. So working on the design side or on the coding side or on the marketing side or whatever it is. And so you need somebody who not only knows how to do the job, but also knows how to throw out the playbook about how to do the job and figure out how to succeed in this new world. And it's really as a hiring manager, it's hard to find that because on one level, you're like, okay, I can I have the luxury of being able to pattern match against like I want this specific profile of person and I can go find them. But then how you actually assess whether they are going to be able to think really creatively to get a new job done while still having like like the bones of consumer PM haven't changed like having good instincts around what makes a good consumer product is I think is kind of like a an enduring thing in the world. but the question of how you do that is changing radically. And so I need somebody who can do both. and I need somebody who can demonstrate that to me above all of the flood of other outreach that I'm already getting.

11:33 Yeah. Maybe one build there. You kind of mentioned this Hillary, but I've really noticed this at Dolingo is I think, you know, 5 years ago, we were we were really open to a lot of different backgrounds and people who just had like sort of the right mentality and mindset that we thought we could train up on the job. but now like we have shifted gears where we're really looking for like very specialized talent, people with very specific experience and we're not really we're not tweaking our, you know, desire to like kind of search outside of those bounds. And because of that, I think for candidates like you used to be able to get your foot in the door really easily. and you would just learn on the job and today I think that that is happening less. And so I think that is, you know, people are reacting to that in real time and you're just seeing less PM roles be posted generally as well. I was looking at I think Lenny had posted he did like a PM study on just open ROS. I think it was maybe at the end of last year. I might be totally making this up, Ben. I don't know. You're nodding like I'm saying the right thing. So, but basically >> that sounds right.

12:28 >> Yeah, it was like there was a huge increase in open PM roles up until around like the beginning of COVID and then it kind of fell off a cliff and it has recovered a little bit but it's still much lower. and so you're basically kind of fighting with those same you're fighting with more people for the same role than you were ever before. and in some ways, like as a hiring manager, I'm like, "Oh, great." I I truly I get so many rums that cross my desk where I'm like, "That is almost the exact specific experience I'm looking for." And it's helpful for me, but it just makes again getting you your resume noticed and your experience noticed just harder than it was before.

13:00 >> Yeah. What I'm see what I'm hearing too, just to add a perspective from some of the recruiters that I talked to, for example, is especially like retained recruiters that work with companies to fill fill PM openings or even in-house recruiters. what used to be maybe like three like you used to be have maybe like three musthaves and then this like long list of nice to haves. Now like the list of must haves has grown to like you know five to six sometimes more must haves and the given the amount of talent on the market the expectations you they will be able to go find those people. so that's like one thread which I think reinforces what you've both been saying. The other one is that given that the job Hillary to your point the job of the PMs is evolving to the point where the expectations of the leverage that you get out of a product manager are rising so fast. I will say the the narrative is probably outpacing reality in my in my assessment at this point. But I think it's a good push for PMs to be more productive. I don't know if PMS can really do the job of 5 to 10 PMs, but maybe doing the job of maybe historically what was 2 to 3 PMs is is probably reasonable given these tools.

14:03 what that means is like the the budgets for PM hiring from what I've seen have definitely increased. Like the recruiters I talked to say they've never seen the total comp packages as high as they are right now in the space for for getting the perfect candidate who can really, you know, bring that leverage that they're looking for. and all that means like anyone who's trying to position themselves as a generalist or as someone who's not like the perfect person for a given role in this environment, I think we'll have a very hard time because the assumption is that we we will be able to find the perfect person.

14:37 so to get specific on things from the old playbook that maybe don't work anymore. So we talked about cold outreach, right? are you two saying you think cold outreach is dead, or are you saying that it it's very alive, but the the specifics of ways that cold outreach could be done to hiring managers and people at companies to kind of get in the door simply requires a different approach or a different way of thinking about it.

15:08 >> Maybe I can start this time, Hillary. so I I think it's it's dead adjacent in that like I still I get a lot of I get at least 20 people on LinkedIn who send me a message every single day. I also have two open roles right now, so I'm actively hiring and I post about that regularly so people see that. I still look at all of those messages that I get and I still look for the most part I'll look at a clickth through to their LinkedIn profile. and I will say that one, I get a lot more messages of from people whose experience is nowhere near relevant to what I'm hiring for, which always breaks my brain. I wish LinkedIn would help me with that. If anyone here works for LinkedIn, please pass this feedback along. I wish they would filter for me because they probably know that they're not those folks are not relevant. that said, I I will say like when people do come my way where they have relevant experience and they have something interesting to say in the cold outreach, I I will occasionally get back to them. I was talk, we were talking about this, I think pre-h holidays, Ben and Hillary, but, people have been sending me prototypes of things. which is pretty cool because it probably doesn't take them a long time to do it. but they can send me an idea that's relevant to what I'm hiring for. And I haven't actually, to be clear, I have not responded to I I've responded to people, but I haven't interviewed them yet because their experience was still not relevant. but it's definitely caught my eye. And so I think for the most part the old playbook of like how you could just used to be able to like slide into somebody's DMs and you would talk to them is not there anymore. but I do still I'm still looking at people and still like giving people a chance when they are DMing me. So Hillary, I'm curious for your thoughts like similar.

16:39 How are you thinking about this? >> Yeah, I think I mean attention is always an arbitrage game, right? Like you will always have an advantage if you can figure out how to get someone's attention by doing something that is different than what everyone else is doing. And so anything that we tell you today, like it might work for the next 3 months, 6 months, and then people will start catching up with it and then you're going to have to think of something else. And so to me, like, yeah, cold outreach is much harder because everyone has kind of figured it out. but it is still possible if you can find a way to stand out from the from the pack. certainly don't send it a subject line that says interest in Whoop like or interest in whatever company like I get again like dozens of those every day. but if you can find a way to like kind of stop me in my tracks and get my attention that I I've 100% interviewed people based on that. and I I'll say I'll maybe I'll give some people some hope. I I am super open to people from like very different backgrounds still. I took a pretty like winding pl path to get into product myself. So, I'm like I have a, you know, my heart goes out to people who are trying to make it. and I'm like I I am generally happy to take a chance on someone who maybe doesn't have the exact experience I'm looking for if they are able to absolutely wow me in terms of like how they show me their potential. but that's a high bar.

18:07 Like that's not that's not easy to do. but it is doable for sure. While we're on the topic, and I know we we maybe have I have one example that I wanted to show everyone, I I sanitized it of of an outreach from a candidate to a hiring manager and this person did get hired. So, if people want to see like one way to think about structuring one of these, I wanted to share that. But before I do that, this the one I'm about to share was sent on LinkedIn. do either of you have thoughts? And I know every every hiring manager is going to be different, but like for you too, if you think about, you know, like almost like your email inbox as one place people could try to pop up. and then your LinkedIn inbox is another place they might pop up if they're trying to figure out, hey, I'm I have one bullet to spend, like where do I spend the bullet? Do you have any thoughts on where that bullet might be better spent?

18:54 >> Or would you just say both? >> Yeah, both. >> Yeah, same. I look at both as well. >> Okay, cool. all right. So, I'm going to just do a quick a quick share because I think to go from theory to pra practicality, I think it help. Hillary, do you see my screen? Nikki, >> I do. >> Okay, cool. So, so the hiring manager sent me sent me this. So basically the subject line for the LinkedIn DM was ideas on scaling and they included the name of the product that the hiring manager works on or is hiring for from and then they they did include kind of like the current stage or the current state of it to the future state of it.

19:36 Trying not to divulge any details about the specific role. Confidentiality is super important with this stuff. and they started by saying so the hiring manager recently had posted an article and they kind of named the name the article and they said it made them smile. they love the approach to a specific kind of like area that there was a strong opinion expressed about. They they empathized with that by you know sharing a story about something they did in their current role. and then they kind of demonstrated they ended up taking action like there's a specific behavior that kind of shows alignment with the opinion from the piece that the person wrote. and then they kind of shift into talking about why they're reaching out about their role. you know, basically company name, that company name has been on the on a path that's relevant because their current company is also going from relevant product line with an old way of thinking to a new way of thinking that's aligned with that post. So, it's kind of like culturally we're on the same path. I'm aligned with it. And then there's a couple bullet points around achievements.

20:43 ideally if those achievements can be can demonstrate you're focused on impact, you're focused on results, that's great. and then the thing that was I thought really interesting is this candidate proactively included a link to a one-pager I think it was a PDF a one pager PDF that was like a onepage strategy and I'm sure they used AI for the PDF and I asked the hiring manager how like the quality of you know how important was the content of what that PDF showed and they said look like it was directionally like a lot of the stuff I'm thinking about the content itself was like you know maybe five out of 10 I obviously wouldn't expect them to be at my level of thinking on this topic, but they don't work here. But the fact that they did that and they put together this strategy that shows that they kind of understand some of the key levers I'm thinking about at least was really impressive and they ended up hiring that person. so I just wanted to share that as an example of one way you could think about standing out now to the to the point around how maybe now that this is out in the open, everyone starts doing that, maybe that won't help you stand out anymore. So it's kind of like important to think about the the goalpost moving. But Nikki Hillary, any any reactions to that that you know based on your experience receiving messages like these?

21:54 >> I I mean I love that they put together a one pager and they were specifically talking about like actionable things that that the company could do. a a common red flag that I see when people reach out or or even when they interview is they have not really thought about Duolingo's product or specifically I I work for on Dualingo math and so they haven't tried math. And so there's just like little things you can do to truly show you're interested. And so writing a little bit actually helps you do that.

22:20 somebody posted in the chat that that, you know, it was very clear that that was written by AI. And I don't think I would see it that way, honestly. I think going a little bit above and beyond would just make me spend a little bit more time considering that person. And that's kind of what you're trying to do, right? Is you just want someone to pause. Like when you get 25 LinkedIn DMs a day, you are cruising through those.

22:39 You have maybe like a minute to read them all. and so anything that makes me stop just for a second and think about it is a good thing. And I think that's a they did a good job of of getting you to reconsider. >> Hillary, you want to you have any >> agree with that? And I think it like especially if they sent something along with it. The thing that I find most helpful, the reason I like think sending a prototype is helpful, but it can be any kind of work artifact is it's helping me see how you approach work and like what you can do, like what you are capable of. And I said this in the chat where somebody was asking like, well, in some cases it seems like expertise is super important and in some cases it's not. I I would say that like e if I'm ever going to hire someone that doesn't have the specific expertise I'm looking for, I need to see demonstrated like proof that they can figure out what that is and get it on their own without me having to teach them. And so it's not like it doesn't matter. It's just like I'm evaluating the degree to which you have maybe learned this on the job through or versus like you have actually successfully taught yourself this skill such that you are able to deliver something to me that is like I'm like oh wow that is a good enough that if you were in this job this would be like a good work that I would accept. and so I think like in that example, what what stands out to me and what I think is really good is the like, you know, sharing an example of something like that like almost if I were doing this job.

24:04 >> I was going to say it's almost like growth. It's like proof of growth mindset and so you know when you plug them in like they're going to hustle and figure it out which especially if you're going to deviate from like you know you need these specific qualifications like that those skills are going to be really important for that person to actually be able to figure out the job and do things that they haven't done before. Any other examples either of you want to share for just like things that make someone stand out with cold outreach before we talk about I wanted to kind of move along to the the public proof of work. I think we kind of had some thoughts around because we've just been talking about cold outreach so far, but there's also things around building in public that I think we wanted to talk about, but anything else you want to talk about with the the cold outreach?

24:45 >> I'll add one thing quickly, which is just like I'm a human, right? Nikki's a human. Like we're all humans and so people who are I think some of the most effective cold outreach for me is like people who are able to like figure out something about me as a human, which should be easy because I'm like on the internet posting stuff and can connect with me over that. Like if people can get a laugh out of me, I'm going to read what they have to say.

25:08 Like if people can say something, you know, like in in that example you had, they mentioned the article. but that's very specific to me. Like there are other people who maybe would be really annoyed if somebody was like trying to make them laugh and you know it might annoy me if you do it the wrong way but if you can if you can get me to laugh like I'm going to respond to your cold email. and so I think just remember that you are you know you're reaching out to a person and so I think that's also why just spamming a bunch of hiring managers never works. because if you if you can make a personal connection with someone and I think we'll talk about this later too with getting referrals into a company.

25:43 that's like one of the most important things you can do. >> Yeah, love it. I don't know if we're going to screen share it, Hillary, but in our prep you, shared, an email that you had received from, someone with an idea for a women's health app at Whoop. I don't know if you want to like just maybe talk about what stuck out to you from that or >> do you have that? I sent you some slides, but I also have them and can pull them up.

26:06 >> Yeah. Yeah. Let me let me move ahead in our presentation to those slides >> maybe while you're finding them just sort of one last thing on like how to stand out like we talked about the prototype thing which we're going to talk about with proof of work. but I do I I have gotten a few prototypes in via LinkedIn and again like I've just been it's really it's fun. It's like a different kind of DM.

26:32 And both of the both times somebody sent me one, I was like, you do not have the experience that you need to thrive in this specific role. But I also again paused and I looked at it and I remembered their name. And so I think, you know, maybe we'll all see more of that again in six months. And so that's going to be less novel again. but I do think it's a fun way for you to think about their product experience, to show your skills as a product person, and for you to get noticed, which is really helpful.

26:59 All right, let me pull it back up. I just wanted to get the full screen view of it. okay. Do you see it now, Hillary? >> Yeah. >> Cool. >> Yeah. So, I sort of marked this one up. this person opened by saying, "So, my whoop is telling me I haven't slept enough the past couple of nights, and I know it's because I've been staying up thinking about the senior product manager role I recently applied to." I thought that was genuinely funny. I laughed, so I kept reading.

27:24 some other things just to cloud here like a subject line like an idea for women's health is going to get my attention way more than like interest in the role or you know something more generic like I think I always tell people too with cold outreach in general like think about how you can reach out with an offer rather than an ask and so an offer could be like hey I have an idea or I have a prototype or I have something to share as opposed to an ask is like I want something from you like I need your time or I need your consideration.

27:53 and so an idea for women's health. Like it she is offering me an idea which I appreciate. and in it like she, you know, she talks about some like podcasts she was listening to about some things that are relevant to Whoop. Like she just came across as somebody who does her homework who has put a lot of effort into this. And I think that's a lot of what the signal here is so is is important and what AI makes hard is that I'm looking for people who have put a lot of effort into it, who are willing to put an uncommon amount of effort into something because they're so excited about the job. and it's, you know, as I said, you used to be able to do that by just writing a good letter. Now you have to find other ways to do that.

28:35 >> Yep. there's also I guess like did that cover letter that do you remember if what what else stuck out about that cover letter if anything that was attached or is it just kind of a generic one in your memory? >> I think that it was just more about like her specific experience. >> Okay, cool. So, the key with the note is not to make the note your cover letter. The key of the note is to be an attention grabber. Shows you've put in the effort. You're really interested.

28:59 It's relevant to you. You've done your homework. You're engaging. And then to include maybe some more traditional artifacts like like a cover letter. Yep. Yep. Yep. >> Nikki, any reactions to this before we keep going? >> Yeah, I think this is great honestly and I also I also lolled. That was a good joke. So who know jokes make the all the difference here. >> Cool. I agree. Okay, let's talk for a moment about building in public before we talk about referrals because I think the way the way referrals work is is evolving as well. what do what do you two think about with building in public? Is this kind of like posting on LinkedIn? Is this just sharing learnings with like newsletters? Is this like portfolios? all the above? like what do you think about as some of the most interesting ways for people can build in public to potentially look more compelling or draw the attention of hiring managers for roles that they'd be a great fit for?

29:59 >> Want me to go for it? >> Yeah, quick. I mean I always tell people like play the game, you're going to win. And so to me it's like it depends on what your strengths are. If you're a really good writer, right? if you, you know, are have lots of great ideas, prototype. and just be posting them wherever people are going to see them. I think LinkedIn is a great place to post. it's, you know, like people engage there. And I think the best thing you can do is have a profile enough that people are coming to you rather than you having to try to get on people's radar. And that's the kind of thing that you're doing now. And it's just going to keep paying itself back in dividends over the years as you start to build that profile more and more.

30:38 >> Agree. I have somebody a candidate that's pretty far along in the pipeline right now. Fingers crossed I shouldn't be talking about this. I'm going to jinx it. but one of the things I was really excited about them was just them on LinkedIn trying a bunch of stuff with AI and posting about it and I could just tell that they were they knew what they were talking about. They were experimenting and I just got like fun growth mindset vibes from the person.

30:59 And so I think especially in the time where you know you're a PM's job in six months is going to be different than it is today. hiring people that are like experimenting and have sort of that as part of their ethos and like their principle first principles I think really matters and I got that vibe just because that person had been like on LinkedIn sharing what they were doing and what they were trying and so I would say like don't be scared you know there's people feel cringe and they're like I could never post on LinkedIn woof and for what it's worth I felt the same way the first few times I did it I was like filled my body was literally filled with cringe but I think you need to get over it and you will it gets easier every time you post something.

31:37 And I think the more that you can talk about the work that what you're thinking about, you're just going to attract people who are interested in those things. And I guarantee you, you will have more opportunities if you're doing that publicly than if you had been doing those things privately and not talking about them. so just lean into the cringe is my advice for you today. because I really think it helps you get noticed. And people are definitely going to look at your LinkedIn profile when you're are interviewing and if it shows you doing interesting things, I think that's just positive signal.

32:05 Yeah, I think I think you're increasing your surface area of luck and and just like the opportunity for serendipity to occur where you know interesting things can happen by by being out there. It's marketing. and I think I forget who said it but it's like you need to see an ad I think like 14 times or something before you even notice like to consciously be aware of a brand that you might be might be thinking about. so if the o first and only touch point someone's ever going to have with you is just like one email or one message, like I think it's going to be probably less likely to trigger some pattern recognition in the human that's reading it than if they had seen some some of your stuff and liked it or you know that's obviously ideal.

32:44 Someone who can follow you on LinkedIn and then you end up you know telling them you want to you're interested in one of their roles like that could be a really good intro. I did want to share one. so, I'm not I don't want to I don't want to mispronounce the name of of, the person whose post I am screenshotting here, but, maybe Hake Hake Young. but I love this post. I got a lot of reactions and I wanted to kind of share it as an example in case it's really hard for people to read.

33:13 I'll just kind of talk for a second out loud cuz I think there's some good nuggets in it. And I'll include the link in in the follow-up email that everyone that signed up for this gets. But some some things that made make candidates stand out from other applicants in her view are things like a portfolio web page that had her specific name on it and talk to her specifically. So kind of like a personalized portfolio that was designed for a single human reader. I thought that was really interesting. literally getting five people who can vouch for you to email that hiring manager in the same exact week. Almost like creating like a fullcourt press on them to make them aware of you. It's like, wow, there's a lot of social proof at once. Like, these people care enough to do this. I should talk to this person. apparently she talks a lot about how she loves hot sauce and so like the application materials referenced hot sauce multiple times to kind of get her attention. I thought that was really interesting.

34:09 even a short video with some like slides explaining why they're the right person for the role. Graphics that use their brand's color to kind of show them that they get the athos, they get the the the vibe, like they'd be a good vibe fit, I guess, from a branding perspective. yeah, and the list the list goes on, but I would say, you know, these are the types of things that people are doing. and I just wanted to use this as a as a moment to say that there's kind of like no such thing as too creative or too thoughtful in this market. I'd really like bring the creativity to the job to the job search in that way.

34:46 >> Yeah. I also see a lot of people in the chat being like, is this isn't this too much? Like don't you kind of feel stalked and overwhelmed at some point? And like yes, obviously if you are stalking me, I'm not going to like that. But like I would say don't let your fear of doing too much stop you from doing anything. I would like 99 times out of 100 people don't do enough. And if if it just so happens that you're in that one time out of 100 that you're doing too much. Like you you really got to do a lot for it to be too much. And like don't cross any like weird personal lines. Like that's when it gets weird.

35:18 but being creative, being thoughtful, and showing that you really want the job and really care about it, like you got to play the game. That's the game. >> Yeah. Just a reminder like the the way you show up to try to get an interview is a it's like almost like 100% of the signal that the hiring manager will have about what you might show up like on the job like if you if you actually work there. So if you want to if you want them to be like I'm a creative go-getter, right? If that's how I show up as a PM on the job, then being a creative go-getter to to get an interview is a good way of showing that.

35:52 Maybe my my one caution with that is I really do think qual depending on the orgs maybe this is company specific but qualifications do matter and I think you can be like you should be a little delusional when you're when you're trying to find like to go after your dream role and you're trying to find that dream job for yourself but I would check yourself like if you're spending hours of time on one thing that you are truly not qualified for just you know maybe check in on how much time you're spending or give yourself a time box things like that u because I do think like you could go down the rabbit hole and spend a ton of time on something that you're just not going to potentially be considered for because you don't meet some sort of important criteria to that hiring manager. So again, not I don't want I don't want to be negative because I agree with those things, but I think just like hold yourself accountable. Even give yourself a time box for things just so you're not like spending two weeks on a thing that you maybe were never going to be able to to get in the first place.

36:44 >> Yeah, Hillary, that might be a good segue. Do you mind if I pop the spear fishing slide up? if you want to talk, I think that's like super relevant because >> the reason I made the connection is because Nick Nikki's right. You can't spend this amount of time on many many opportunities. I think if you're going to do this creative stuff we're talking about and go above and beyond, you got to be pretty picky. so yeah, Hillary, what what you want you want to talk about spear fishing? I I I loved this this >> Yeah, this is from a great resource that I did not create, but you can scan this QR code to go to the the GitHub where this is published. And it was it's specifically I think advice for engineers but now in vibe coding world anyone can kind of do this.

37:24 so spear fishing yeah is this idea that you are sending somebody targeted outreach with a work artifact basically that you have built that is like showing them a thing that you would do if you were doing this job. and I think this is important when it says the demo does not need to solve the company's real internal problem that's unrealistic from the outside, but it should use their product or APIs. It should show that you understand what they are trying to do for their users, and it should be something that they would plausibly find interesting, useful, or delightful. and I think it, yeah, this idea of like, you know, building a prototype or building something to show. I've some really good versions of this I've seen is we had a >> Oh, can we Sorry, we had someone come off.

38:10 >> Yeah, took care of it. >> Thank you. like we had somebody who I did end up hiring who was posting on Reddit sourcing Whoop customers to and she was like posting being like I'm applying for a role and I want to understand how people have re reached their goals using Whoop. If this is you like can I talk to you? So we saw that and we were like oh wow she's she's doing the job. Like she's out there trying to get real customers to talk to.

38:40 And then in her application, she had this like, hey, I talked to 20 you real users and here's what I learned about them and like here's what I would do as a result. and I think, you know, some some of the like attention grabbing stuff can feel kind of gimmicky and that is where I start to be like, okay, this is not working. But nothing will ever impress me more than just like you showed me that you can crush the job.

39:05 >> Totally. cool. Well, I know we've got fiveish minutes before you want to maybe take some questions in the chat. We'll see how much we cover. We might go another 10 based on how much we have to say about referrals, but I think referrals and kind of getting introduced is a good place to maybe wrap up the the discussion side of this. So, the way people maybe historically like the old playbook way to think about referrals is, you know, you see a role at a company that's interesting. if you know someone at that company who can vouch for you. Maybe they've worked with you in the past company. you ask them if they'd be willing to put in a referral for you. A lot of companies used to incentivize referrals and they would pop you right to the top of the resume stack. So, you definitely got a look from the recruiters and almost guaranteed interview unless it was like really not a good fit. and and now you're in the door. so I'd love to get your thoughts on how much of maybe that that way of getting in the door still feels true to you and how much of that is maybe changing or what are the dynamics that maybe are making that change?

40:10 >> Yeah, I can start. I this to me still feels extremely relevant. Like I see warm intros as a huge filter, especially if it's from somebody that I trust. And so you have a very good chance of talking to me if it if you know somebody that I know who I have worked with in the past or have high trust with and they like you. and so I would say really lean into this if you can. and I've definitely talked to some really cold cold intros that like loosely knew the person before. U maybe I'm too nice actually when I say that out loud. I shouldn't be doing that.

40:41 but I I have found a lot of people that I've hired have come in this way. and that is also, I think, again, Dualingo, especially some of the levels of role that I'm working or that I'm hiring for right now. you just need specific experience. And so, I think I trust people. I trust them to know if that person has that experience. >> but generally, I think if this is just a really way great way to have that first conversation with a hiring manager.

41:08 >> Yeah, I agree. I I'm a big fan of the self-contained forable email. So, if somebody like if somebody's trying to reach out to me through somebody I know, like just send that person an email that they can forward directly on to me where you're sort of like making the case for why you're a good fit. And then like I'll I'll like take the email. I I'll probably even take the call if I know that person well. but don't rely on like that mutual person to be making the case for why you're a good fit for the role. yeah. I'm like less if it's like, you know, sometimes people will be like, "Hey, I had one conversation with this person and they seemed good. Do you want to talk to them?"

41:47 >> to me that's not that helpful. Like that person might as well just reach out to me cold. versus somebody being like, "Oh, I worked with this person before and I'll vouch for them." that I take very seriously. But that might just be a me thing. >> Yeah. the the way I look at it is like I if I'm going to refer someone if I don't work at a company but someone asks me if I'm willing to refer them to someone at the company so kind of like an external almost like warm referral I'm putting my reputation on the line to some degree to make that introduction.

42:15 So you know basically the amount of conviction I have about the quality of that introduction will directly be correlated with my likelihood to take action on that. And then theoretically the more conviction I have about it, the more rece more more warm the recipient will be to my outreach and and be willing to to give it value. So just don't dilute yourselves too much with referrals either way by asking for them or by dishing them out like they're you know like they're useless. Scarcity come scarcity breeds value obviously. So >> I was going to add one thing. There is a metag game here too. when you are at a company, it to to meet your co-workers and to cast a wide net internally and get to know people when you have that time at the company. I have used and leveraged my network from past jobs over and over again and it has gotten more valuable to me as I've gotten more senior in my career. and so, you know, especially if you're early career, make those relationships and say hi to people, get to know people because you can ask them for favors and ask them for help and then help them in the future.

43:20 And I think that really compounds as your career progresses. >> I'm also a yapper, so I think I naturally just do this. I like to talk to people. so if you don't like to do that, I would encourage you to step out of your you got to break out of your shell a little bit and you have to kind of work at that. But it it's very valuable later on down the line. >> Yeah, it's great advice. Well, I hear talking a lot about hard skills.

43:41 >> Sorry. we're not doing a open mic question. Sorry, I had to mute you. but we'll we can drop the questions in the chat when we open it up. We're not done with the presentation section yet. so the Hillary, I think we had the anatomy of a good forwarded affordable email in a bad one. Should we spend a couple minutes on that and then open up for questions? >> Sure. >> Okay. So I think we have good first. What makes us good?

44:10 >> So yeah, I this is just like a a fake one that I wrote for somebody who's asked me to put in a referral to Nikki for a job at Duolingo. and so first thing like subject is attention grabbing, right? It's an offer of value. It's not an ask. It's not like hey can I have Nikki's time? It's made something. does like a good job of like very quickly and succinctly saying what experience they have in a way that shows that it is relevant to the job at hand and like in the impact that they've been able to have. shows that they've done their homework, they've spent time with the current experience. have ideas for how to improve it. and then just, you know, it's tight, it's quick, it does what it needs to do, and it is something that I can literally just hit the forward button and I don't have to do anything else.

45:01 Great. bad forward bad forwardable email. >> Yeah, that super generic subject line. doesn't really explain. It's just sort of like, hey, I I think it would be cool to work at Dolingo. I could bring value. Will you take some time to talk with me? so it just like it doesn't make that sell in quite the same way. And it doesn't like you as the person trying to get a job need to be connecting the dots for like here's why my experience is absolutely perfect for this role. and if you're just sort of like hey I think the role seems cool here's my resume you figure it out like it's not going to work.

45:40 >> Yeah. as far as the you know 15 20 like the final call to action. I know there's a bunch of differences in these but here it's like 15 20 minutes to discuss and then here it's like grabbing coffee sometime. Like I also noticed that as kind of like a little bit more loosey goosey whereas the first one strikes me as a bit more kind of on point. >> Yeah, >> cool. okay. So, as we kind of are closing, before we do Q&A, so folks can start dropping questions. We're not going to do open mic. some people, can just get a little verbose and I want to be mindful of the recording quality for people in the future. So, if you can drop your questions, make them succinct, please, in the chat, that would be very helpful. And in the meantime, we're going to tell you about some stuff we're excited about in case you want to go deeper with us. So, for me, if any of you are getting ready for product sense and analytical thinking interviews, like the ones that are used at Meta, but many other companies, OpenAI has very much embraced Meta's interview process with some small nuances. I do host a top-rated course on Maven which is here.

46:46 you can just search Bener's Maven on Google and find it. Also, just follow the the link after this recording gets sent to you. And you can get 10% off with the code get noticed. if you want to take the course, it is self-paced because I realized my cohort timings don't always line up really neatly with the interview timelines for candidates who often have to get ready in like two to three weeks for interviews. So, this is meant to get you ready for that on your own time and does include access to my my interview co-pilot. So, feel free to check that out if you would like. also, if you're getting ready for interviews at companies like Stripe, Figma, Uber, Door Dash, and more coming soon, I do run a a company called Insider Loops with my friend Mark, who is my podcast co-host here for the Super Inside Podcast, in case you want to check that out. Hillary and Nikki have both been guests. but our insider loops guides are deeply researched, continuously updated. So, we update them on a nearly weekly basis based on real insights from candidates going through interviews and insiders at these companies. So, if you want to check that out, go to insiderloops.com.

47:48 Here are just some of our guides. All right, Hillary, Mike is to you. You want to tell people about your course? >> Yes. I also have a course coming up called How to Become a Super Manager with AI. There's a lot of stuff out there for how to become super productive as an individual contributor with AI. Mine is very focused on how to be a better manager, how to make your life easier, how to make your team better, how to make tools that can teach your team to do things as well as you would do them. it's a lot of fun. you can scan this code here to get more detail.

48:22 I think I have some testimonials on the next slide. oh, some of them. Wow, I got redacted in my own slide. Ben Ben is sabotaging me because he wants you his >> we have non-competitive courses to be. >> But yeah, great great testimonials from former students. I think there's a ton of value. It's sort of a combination of of management best practices. So you're going to learn how to become a better manager and you're going to learn how to become better at AI. Don't worry about Don't worry about it.

48:51 >> There it is. unredacted. >> Oh, one of those repeat. So, maybe it was maybe you were saving me from myself. and then you can get 30% off through this QR code or if you use the code owl that was for my owl lamp and also shout out to Duo. >> Love it. Great. Just continuing to It should have been parrot. >> Seriously, >> 40% off code parrot. I was going to ask Ben if you clicked the Google's like beautify this slide button because it's terrible if you ever clicked. Don't click that button.

49:28 >> No. >> But anyways, all right, my turn. I clearly need to have a Maven course. I do not. So, I just wanted to let everyone know that Dualingo is hiring for product roles. we have, I think, like 10 posted. We have more coming. so, check out our careers page. and then as always, I love to yap and so I yap on LinkedIn for the most part. so you're welcome to follow me. send me a prototype sometime if you are qualified for the jobs that you are wanting a referral for. but otherwise happy to connect.

49:58 >> Yeah, that's such an important point as we kind of get into Q&A now that everything we talked about about how to get in the door, how to stand out, all this advice presupposes that your experience is a good fit for the role. someone would really have to be rolling a dice and betting on you in a major way to to kind of let you let you do a job that you're quoteunquote not qualified for. Your experience isn't really relevant for. So, let's that's that's a good reminder of that, Nikki.

50:24 Okay, cool. I'm going to curate a set some of these questions from the chat and we'll we can do a little bit of like a lightning round with thoughts on them. So, one of the things that I saw pop up which I think people are interested in is around levels. So like are there any big differences in how you think about any of the advice we shared based on like senior people versus maybe earlier career people?

50:44 >> For me the goal when we say things like send a prototype the goal is not to send a prototype. The goal is to demonstrate that you can do what the job requires. And so if you are applying for a more senior job that's going to look different than if you're applying for a more junior job. and like your ability to think like what would show the person hiring for this role that I'm able to operate at a director or a VP level versus a senior PM level is like you have to be able to do that in order to get those jobs. and if you can't do that, like you probably aren't a good fit for that job. Yeah. The advice I've given on level before is typically I'm pretty flexible a level below and a level bel above what I have posted. You know, it's it's it's hard to have a really ambiguous job posting that you'll you'll put out there. and if I really like the candidate, so much so that if they were if they had less experience than what I had put in the job description, I would vouch for them and honestly be making a commitment that I would be able to train them up and help them operate at that level. but then also sometimes we'll hire people who are come in through our job description and they're really senior because we also like them and we want them in our org. So I would say there's a little bit of squish there depending on the company. but if it's like a chief product officer role that requires like 15 years of product experience and you are an associate product manager who is in your first year somewhere, like probably not going to happen for you.

52:00 so I think you'll have to use your good judgment. >> Yep. Okay. let's see another one. Yeah. Is there I guess yeah, one of these questions about PM adjacent rules. So, maybe I'll punt on that one because we're trying to keep this focused on PMs right now. let's see. Company sizes. so do you think there's any variation in the advice that we we've shared for someone that's maybe trying to break into a smaller startup versus like a larger company?

52:38 Nikki, I don't know where you'd put Dualingo these days. but I still think of it as like a very successful startupish, but maybe now it's like big. >> You have a thousand employees now. So, we're not really a startup anymore. but I definitely I love to hire people out of startups. I think when you work at a startup, you do 17 different jobs and you typically not always, but you can do really well in an org that's dualingo sized. Sometimes I find the opposite to not be true where if you're coming from like a 5,000 per person or and you are really doing like a really really really really boiled down specific job every day, going to a place like Duolingo where you actually have a pretty big scope and you're actually doing a lot of different things is hard for people. And so I think again that's going to really depend on the hiring manager and where they're working and and their vibes.

53:22 >> Yeah, I will say the yeah, I I my experience is the same. I think there's a lot of skepticism in early stage startup people that people who don't have startup experience will be successful in a startup environment. So in big tech it's it's almost like assumed like you've never been big tech so like we'll teach you >> how to how to do big tech stuff. >> all right, domain expertise. Okay, this is a really important one. So I think you know to me that was kind of like baked into the qualifications for the job and the experience. But certainly one of the things I'm seeing in the market is domain expertise certainly shifted. I tal I spoke earlier about the the nice to haves versus the must haves. And I think the domain expertise has almost universally shifted from the nice to haves to the must haves given some of the dynamics we've talked about where like hiring managers have their pick of the litter. So they're like yeah if I can get someone who knows the domain why wouldn't I?

54:12 Hillary, I know we talked about a couple of the folks that you know who recently got some offers in this market having domain, I think, relevant domain expertise, but do do either of you have thoughts on how important that is? >> What I I said >> I would say at Duolingo, one thing that we look for and we care a lot about, and I would say we definitely are pretty strict on this with our qualifications, is we want you to have a consumer experience. Unless you're coming in through our APM pipeline, we have a pretty we have an awesome APM program.

54:39 we assume you don't have any experience in that case and we will be teaching you but if you are coming in at like a senior product level or group product manager level and we are saying you need consumer experience we want you to have that and the reason for that is because we've seen people come in who do not have that and it takes us extremely long time to ramp them up and those skills you know you would you would think sometimes like B2B or even enterprise would translate really well to consumer because you're still thinking about the user at the end of the day but we have struggled a little bit with that internally so I would say that's sort of like a cultural thing that that we've leaned into inside of Duo Duolingo and because the market is so employer favorable when it comes to hiring, we can be picky in that way where 5 years ago we couldn't. Yeah, I would say often you are at the intersection of two domains and like I when I was at Whoop, I would take someone with strong consumer experience over someone with strong health experience. and so yeah, in a in a perfect world, you can get both. It is super important. I agree that like the the consumer piece of it matters more at least in my experience than like the specific vertical.

55:42 >> Yeah. And that's the same with I would say with Dolingo like having edtech experience we care about it less than consumer experience. >> Yeah. Another question I saw to get some up votes is around windows for applying to jobs. So let's say a job goes like live JD gets posted today. someone can get in the door maybe tomorrow through something they feel kind of like 60% happy with that approach versus maybe they take the the extra time to get that super warm show proof of work wellcraftrafted email maybe take a week to get get that referral. Do you guys have any thoughts on the timing like the urgency with which you want to kind of move?

56:16 >> Yeah, I mean if our role is posted we're still hiring for it. So I think you shouldn't worry. I mean obviously the very beginning is if you're is probably better but if we have a role posted we are still actively looking at applications. >> Yeah I think you I mean it totally depends on the company obviously but I think it's usually safe to assume you have like a a week or two you know like don't dillydally for like a month but I don't think you need to like get the application in the day it goes live.

56:42 >> Yep. okay one I know this this came up a few times and maybe we'll make this the final question. And it's actually something I I get in my LinkedIn inbox quite regularly. So if you have thoughts on it, I'd love to hear it, which is someone who is maybe an engineer trying to switch into PM, QA tester trying to switch into PM, a designer switching into PM, these kind of like related functions. h any thoughts you have that are any different for those people than what we've already shared that that's that's kind of personalized to that example?

57:14 >> Way easier to do it at the company where you're currently working than at a new company. What's one of that? >> Yeah, that's basically the advice I give people is go do the job you're trying to switch out of at a company where you'd like to be a PM and then do a great job for a year or two, build a case, meet the PMs, and then have someone kind of like vouch for you internally that you'd you'd be a great PM there and kind of, you know, make make the transition internally, but that that's a really hard move to make from scratch at a new company today.

57:39 >> And if you're out of a job, like I would I would target your search on getting the job that you have done and then once you're landed, then you can navigate. I've given that same advice recently, by the way, to PMs who are trying to be who are trying to move out of their niche in PM, like someone with like e-commerce experience or like legal tech experience or health tech experience who are like, I don't want to do those things anymore.

57:59 I want to switch into like something new. I'm like, well, okay, maybe just like think, you know, to the skip role, like the the role ahead of the current role. and use use the assets that you have to kind of earn the right to to to break new ground. Awesome. I know we're right at the hour mark. You two are very busy. I'm sure everyone else is as well. can I ask one thing very very quickly?

58:21 >> I just saw this question about people who've been out of work for a while and I imagine there's a bunch of people who earned this experience. That's hard. But I will say I think we are at a unique moment in history where you can have an advantage if you are out of work because you can learn all of these new AI tools that it's really hard to learn if you are doing your job day in and day out. Like PMs don't have time. It's actually even like the AI AI PMs I know don't have a lot of time to learn these tools. So you can you can have this advantage. the question is just do you like how have you spent that time being out of work? Have you spent it like becoming elite at a new skill set? If so, like show that off. And I think I think you can get some traction with that. So there is hope. There is hope. I promise.

59:06 >> Yeah. Well, thank you both. Thanks everyone for joining. And yeah, we'll we'll send you the recording. Please share it if you enjoyed it. And I wish everyone an awesome rest of your day. >> Thanks for coming. This was fun. CL.