KSP Awards 2016: Is Motherhood A Full Stop to A Woman's Career?

0:03 Thank you so much, ladies. Warm sunny afternoon. I hope Sway is doing good to you guys and thank you so much for leaving work on a Thursday afternoon and joining us.

0:13 Thank you so much.

0:15 Thanks for giving us a break.

0:18 Okay, so the topic today is motherhood is not a full stop to a woman's career. Agree, disagree, straight to the point.

0:27 Not a full stop at all.

0:28 Not at all.

0:28 Right.

0:28 So on this, I think that's where it really starts.

0:31 That's where it really starts.

0:32 Yeah.

0:33 Because as a mom, I mean when you're not a mom, you are not really, I believe in the shoes of the consumers, once you're a mom, you're actually in the shoes of the consumer and doing it all yourself. And that's where you start empathizing that much more with the consumers. And being a marketer, understanding a consumer is that much more important. So I believe it really, really starts then.

0:55 And it's not a full stop at all. I think everybody in the, in this place today, everyone on stage today is a living example of that. So definitely not so.

1:04 My daughter is three and a half and my company is approximately the same age. I actually think my daughter is easier than the company. So both my startups I can't exactly talk about who throws more of a tantrum and I think my daughter is actually the better behaved one. So totally didn't put a full stop.

1:23 Anjana, you're part of a firm that obviously has crazy hours, board meetings, traveling and obviously investing in women founders and investing in founders in general. I don't think we should be discriminating founders between, you know, basis their gender in any which case. But how do you seem to manage to do it all?

1:42 So I don't know if I do it all. I'm sure a few things have fallen by the wayside, but I think for me personally there have been a few things that have been very helpful. One is just setting very clear expectations with my team, with the founders I work with on what works, what doesn't work. I'm quite meticulous in planning. I'm a little bit of a post it and a list making junkie. So I even have a list for our holidays on what I need to pack for my 3 year old and I keep changing that list based on how old she gets so that I don't need to think about it.

2:17 So I get ripped for all of this a lot. But I just feel that you do need to be able to make time for your work and keep time aside for home because if you don't do that. It's very easy for one to spill into the other and one to dominate the other. The second thing I think has been very important for me is just the level of support that I have got both from my mom, my husband, my in laws, the staff I've had at home.

2:49 And you know, it truly does take a village to raise a child and if you are a working mom, it probably takes two. So you know, you need all the help you can get and a little bit more. So I shamelessly take help.

3:00 I think that's something, I think two things that really stood out for me was one is just ask for help, you know, I mean, I think if you're in India and you find it hard to hard to have kids and have a career, I don't know where else can you do it because we have all the help in the world. And the second is I think meticulous and list making is second to womanhood. I don't know, I thought it was only me.

3:21 Like I have these apps for everything to stay organized and, and still I managed to slip through a lot of, a lot of meetings and kids stuff. Soma, you have obviously you and your husband both work at the Godrej group. You live in the Godrej Colin, you know, in the space. Your daughter goes to the Godrej school.

3:43 Do you have, do you feel like

3:45 you're working and you're working and raising the baby and everything, everything is about work.

3:53 Okay,

3:56 so I, I really like what you actually said that you know, one, one shouldn't let the personal life overwhelm the work life and vice versa. So. And also when you talk about women at work, we primarily are really concerned about whether you are able to give time to your child or not. But really the other question is whether you are able to give time to your partner also not or not. So the way we handle.

4:23 Sorry, I'm going to interrupt but I, I just read on her piece that you and her husband have found a common interest, right? You both started running in order to spend time with each other. So I think that's quite commendable to squeeze in the relationship in between.

4:37 So what we did was we decided that our baby time and there is our time, so we started running together. In fact, we have run our stand start marathon, half marathon at this time and we also go for guitar classes together. Now if you're talking about work, life, balance and no, you can't have it all then, well, last two years back we even started taking guitar lessons together together. So yes, if you really plan it out, list it out, you definitely can manage it all.

5:04 And there is a baby time because finally, what I believe in is it's not the quantity but the quality which matters. So whatever time I'm spending with my baby, that's important, how I spend it, not the amount of time I'm able to do.

5:17 Deepali obviously is a very important part of this panel because she has been somebody who's bounced back after motherhood and multiple career breaks and bounced back to a strong, stronger role each time. How did that happen?

5:30 I think strong belief system that I have that sabbaticals and breaks are not meant to be holidays and they're meant to be working sabbaticals. And each time I have planned for the sabbatical, I have planned to say that if there is a skill gap that I have or an experience gap that I have, what is that gap? And then I have gone and done progress projects or retainers during my sabbatical. Exactly for that skill gap. So for example, 12 years ago when my son was born, India was just moving into the whole digital marketing space and we were all very new to it.

6:09 That's the time I was doing work for American firms because they were ahead of the curve. So when I went back, that was really appreciated. My last break I was getting projects on all in the space of brand and marketing and sales and E commerce. But I chose very carefully to work in industries and with categories which were pertaining to E commerce and strategic work that I could do, which again made me come back with a lot of knowledge which actually the employers want you to have.

6:42 So I think you need to plan your working sabbaticals, you know, extreme well,

6:49 you obviously run two full time jobs. That's one being a mother and the label life. You also work with, you know, two moms, right? So you have Malaika and Suzanne, both were moms. Does it get like. So you have like a lot of women in your team or too many moms in the team or does it get hard working with too many moms in the team in general?

7:08 So we are now 65 people, we are 50 women and we have men where they belong is the joke in office. So in the ops and warehouse. So basically picking, packing, pushing heavy stuff or bringing us coffee or not even

7:26 in the accounts team by the way. So

7:30 it's a joke. But yeah, we are an all women office. We now have two men in digital marketing and I keep one of them is from IIT and he always makes a joke saying Please let me bring some boys. Interns.

7:44 Free me.

7:44 Kaam Karn.

7:46 So his standard thing is.

7:48 So. Yeah, so that's the woman part. Amazingly, besides Malaika and Suzanne, we have only three moms at work. And all three moms are. One is, you know, lives very close to work, so it's far easier. But the other two are in customer service, and it's absolutely everybody. See, I don't know what the big hue and cry is about working moms, quite honestly, because I've only known them my entire life. I've worked with them my entire life, and I think they make it look pretty easy.

8:18 I want to add something there. I think the difference that I have noticed in the last two decades that I've worked is, you know, spaces which are hospitality and advertising in media. Because there are a lot more women already there and because they're very grueling on, people are comfortable with the idea of flexi hours and, you know, they really appreciate people who do the work. And it doesn't matter to them where they do it versus traditional organizations, let's say manufacturing organizations, where such flexibility does not exist.

8:51 And I think that is where things have changed considerably, considerably today. You know, 20 years ago, when I joined workplace, there was nothing called diversity that one had ever heard of. You know, there were no flexiyas concept whatsoever at all in corporate organizations. Today's women, therefore, will find it much easier. And today's working moms, you know, also. So I think there is a difference in depending on the industry and the role that you're playing there.

9:23 So Soma, with the kind of company that you work with, which is a large, large business house, do you think women, do you think the corporates are doing enough to retain women in workforce today than when. Than when you had or like five years ago.

9:41 So 10 years ago, Goldreach Consumer Products actually extended. Extended the maternity leave from three months to six months. So actually was one ahead of the bill.

9:52 Sorry, I thought they were ahead of the bill.

9:54 Absolutely. I mean, Goodrej has been way, way ahead in that curve. One was the six months thing. Then after that, they started this thing of work from home. Now, typically when you're in an IT organization, it's that much more easier to possibly work from home. But in an organization like ours, work from home is a bit restricted. But having said that, I remember the time when I had to call my entire team home because I had to conduct a meeting at home with my entire team.

10:23 But that was only possible because we had a policy like this and Then as you also mentioned, there was this flexi hours definitely has been there. So a lot of these policies really help. We also have a creche which is right in the building and extremely well maintained. So. So if you have your kid, you can keep your kid over there. So a lot of these policies actually have encouraged women to, you know, even join back after their motherhood.

10:49 But more importantly, it is not so much the policies that make the difference. I believe it's the leader. For example, if my boss is not empathetic about my situation, no matter what policies you have, it doesn't help. So one of the things that is done is say, desensitizing the leaders of the women who are going on leave. It's very, very critically treated in Godrej. And that's something we feel is very important. The last bit is the kind of responsibility the woman is given after she has come back from the leave.

11:20 I remember that I was given a really, really challenging role right after I was back. So yes, I was promoted when I was seven months pregnant. And after I returned, I was given a seriously challenging role. But then it's thanks to that that I have been able to rise up the ladder that much faster.

11:37 So, Mansi, just to add, I think while we are a large fund, we are a very small team. And in that sense it's a very small organization. And personally, I was the first person in Sequoia India to go up and ask for the maternity policy. So people said, oh, this is what we have by law. So here it is. And I said, where's the rest of it? So I actually wrote my own policy. Right. So, you know, I think in situations when it's a small setup, as someone who is in a position to influence change, you have to be able to do that.

12:13 In a situation where you're leading a company, your empathy towards your, the women in your team is obviously much higher. And to be able to adapt and make us a few small changes, all of those go a long way, right? Even for example, like nursing. While I was nursing, I used to pump an office. It's not like we have a major setup for that. But I had a meeting room blocked every day at a cert for like half an hour.

12:41 I said, I need it. I'm sorry. Too bad if you can't do the

12:43 VC at that time. Deepali, what should women who are looking back at bouncing back in their careers after a maternity break really look at? I mean, I, I know we've had this discussion where Diwali feels like a Lot of, a lot of women have, you know, a lot of high set of expectations and, and, and sort of stuff, but Deepali's got a contrary view to that.

13:07 So.

13:08 Yeah, you know, so I, I was listening to the Godrej example and I was, you know, whispering to her that, you know, Unilever is also a great place. I've not worked at either of the two places, but I think when we have conversations like this, we start setting very high benchmarks. And you know, I think the issue really is that there is only one Godrej and there is only one Unilever and not too many other organizations as friendly as similar, you know, and that's where I think the women need to work harder at it, you know, And I definitely felt that I needed to take a break.

13:41 Break because I wasn't very sure that the travel and everything that I would get back to, you know, would work for me. And in such a case, I think like I mentioned to you, you have to focus on the continuity of the career aspect and not really on the money aspect. I believe in paid forward. So I think a lot of my ex bosses helped me out getting the projects that I wanted to. And in the last seven, eight years, I've worked with 15 women consulting consultants in my team in the various companies that I've worked with.

14:10 Right.

14:10 So I've given, I've made it possible for them to have jobs. But like I was sharing with Mansi, there's 1 out of 10 women who thinks that she's extremely entitled just because she's taken a break, you know, she should find everything easy and people should give it to her on a platter. That doesn't happen. I think you also need to have an attitude of the fact that, listen, I'm doing this for the continuity of my career.

14:29 Somebody's making it possible for me. It may not always be possible for them to always pay you much. Well, but if you can, you know, do projects which are really meaningful to you, then you will make up for it later once you go back to your careers. And I think that's one thing that I want to say. Second is that you may be working for only two hours a day or four hours a day. You may be coming in only twice a week, but that person needs you to be there mentally throughout.

14:52 So you may be away from work, but you can't be disconnected from work if the person who's made it possible for you to work calls you up. And you know, I think these are the two things that you must Keep

15:01 in mind, do you think as women founders, employees or, or women in, in the corporate field, you think we, we tend to negotiate a lesser deal for ourselves. We're lesser, lesser confident about negotiating a better package or a better deal for us?

15:19 I think I want everybody to read Lean in by Sheryl Sandberg. I do think when it comes to, to jobs and salary negotiation, I think women don't negotiate enough. But the danger also is that what is acceptable for a guy to do by a subconscious, you know, is not so acceptable for a woman. So you have to do it extremely skillfully, you know, would be. But I don't think we negotiate enough. But when it comes to you doing retainers and projects, I think you need to have a different attitude there because there are many more takers.

15:52 You know, you're in a high supply environment and it's not necessary for them to hire a person on a retainer. They can always go and hire a person full time. So that's where at least my point of view is.

16:04 I actually feel that women are a little schizophrenic on this. So when it comes to negotiating your own salary or your own promotion, women are very cautious in general. You will wait to make sure that you are. I mean, there's research to show that women typically wait to be 100% ready for the next role before they go and ask for it versus guys are comfortable getting to like 60% and saying, hey, now I need to move up.

16:31 So when it comes to yourself, you are always extra cautious. But if you're going to go and negotiate a deal or negotiate with a contractor or with a vendor, then you will negotiate it bare bones because it's not, not you. Right. So you don't take that same attitude while negotiating for yourself as it is when it is for the business. Ideally women should do it more for themselves as well.

16:53 I actually agree with Anjana, but I had a slightly. I think actually women could be potentially way better negotiators because I just genuinely think we can manipulate men quite easy guys.

17:06 So we've all spoken of how much we've achieved. I'm going to flip over to the other side and ask how much has really slipped through the cracks or has anything slipped through the cracks?

17:18 No, I definitely Wish I had 48 hours in a day. I have a to do list at home which runs into 50 items and I have a to do list at work which runs into 100 items at any point of time. But I think, you know, some things you have to let go. I do think that it's just that we all have our own priorities. I do think that I have attended less family weddings than I should have.

17:43 You know, I, I do think that I watched pretty much no Hindi movies at all since the time my son was born.

17:50 I haven't missed much.

17:51 Right. So I, I used to watch a movie every weekend before that. Right. It's a case of what you're prioritizing really, you know, and you can't be everywhere. So just prioritize and get on with things which are going to give you joy in the short term and which is going to help you achieve your goals in the long term.

18:12 I actually say this to a lot of girls in my office, all in their 20s and early 30s that, you know, I didn't prioritize fitness and looking after myself enough. And my 20s, I was, I feel, you know, over ambitious is a horrible word to use because there's nothing like that, you know, be as ambitious. But I felt like, you know, the not prioritizing fitness and me time or taking a break is a huge mistake because for us now to catch up on it is far harder.

18:46 And you wonder why, you know, the kilos aren't dropping off as fast as they used to, etc. Etc. So that's all I think, I mean, getting back on track. But it takes time now. So that's all, I think, slip through the cracks.

19:00 Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar, right? There are a lot of things that life looks like when it's pre baby and post baby. So a lot of the pre baby activities like regular movies, making time for holidays, late night parties, lots of, lots of socializing, all of that has taken a beating. I wouldn't say that it's gone down to zero, but it has taken a severe beating. Right? But I step back and ask myself, would I give up time with my daughter for that?

19:29 I think the answer to that is no. Would I give up my job for that? I think the answer to that is no as well. So then I think that's a reasonably simple framework to come to the two or three things that matter to you most. And look, finally, those three things will never be the same from one person to the next. And it always gets hard the moment you try to benchmark off of someone who's 100% focused on their career or 100% focused at their child and at home and all of that, right?

19:57 So the moment you start doing that benchmarking, you fall through the cracks and sort of are unable to keep it Together. But as long as you prioritize what's most important for you, I think it works.

20:10 I mean, I believe that I did give up quite a few things when I decided on career as a area sales manager itself. I mean giving up started over there. My own personal interests are even fitness etc. So it'll be a little unfair to blame my baby when she happened that I had to sacrifice a little more. Sacrifice has been, I think the name of the game the day we took up working per se. But yes, I mean the things which fell through the crack at that point of time, now that my child is a little older, I'm getting back to that.

20:40 And in the beginning, as I said that I took up fitness as one of the goals and started running very recently and music, etc. So yeah, things do fall through the crack. But the question is when you start questioning yourself, questioning yourself and start taking it back, picking up things from there and start living again. So it's a call that you take.

21:00 I think the biggest thing in all this is don't be guilty on spending on yourself. So I think going to a gym take will take me 1 hour 15 minutes daily, but getting a trainer home is only 40 minutes daily. So I'd rather save the time. You know, I would rather not drive and keep a driver because I can afford one now at this stage in my career because that gives me me another, you know, one hour in a day when I can manage either social media or watching a YouTube video or you know, doing whatever it is that I want.

21:34 I think that's also something that you should not feel guilty about spending on yourself. You know, a hardcore money money bit that I'm talking about that also makes life a little easier and gives you a little more balance.

21:46 Great.

21:46 Actually just to pick up on that. Right. I think one advice I got very early on was to, to just give up guilt, right? Because you get guilt tripped on everything. You get guilt tripped by family for not spending time with your child. You get guilt tripped at work for not for leaving early. You know, it never ends or spending too much, any of that. So I think fundamentally you have to make your choices and hold your peace and say I'm not going to guilt trip myself because that's actually the hardest battle to win with yourself.

22:14 Absolutely. I mean, I could agree more because I mean, I've stopped feeling guilty when I tell my team that, listen, it's 4 o' clock and I need to leave on a Thursday afternoon because my daughter has cello class or my editor tells me that. Listen, I need to take my dog for a walk right now. I'm sorry. I can't talk. So all of that. Of course. And I think as women, we need to cut slack for women.

22:35 And. And this whole mom shaming thing, that really comes by. Thank you so much for joining us today.