Episode 161 : Third Culture Kids & Change with Trish Shankar

0:39 What? Welcome to Coffee and Change. I'm Bill Kirst. As a business professional, a US veteran, a lifelong learner, and an active listener, I help others navigate, understand, and adapt to our everanging workplace and world. As a third culture kid, I call many places home. Presently, Seattle is where I explore my creativity through the power of words and images. In this podcast, we journey with our guests, gaining knowledge and inspiration from their stories.

1:43 Hey, welcome back. This is episode 161 of the Coffee and Change podcast. On this episode, I interview Trish Shanker. Trish is a marketer at Microsoft, but more importantly, she's a neighbor and she's the third culture kid. In my intro, I mention and refer to myself as a third culture kid. And over the years, a number of listeners have reached out to ask, "What is that exactly? What does that mean?"

2:13 I thought it's about time I interview a third culture kid to explain it all. So sit back and listen to the episode as we traverse the world in tales of resiliency, community, and connection. Thanks for listening.

3:03 So, welcome back to the Coffee and Change podcast. This is season 10 of the podcast and we are on episode 161, believe it or not. and so today I have with me a friend and a neighbor. So we are actually recording in person in my home in my home studio, which feels really, really special and really intimate. and I'd love to introduce you to Trish. So Trish, welcome to the Coffee and Change podcast. You've been listening for a while. I'd love for you to introduce yourself to the listeners a little bit about yourself, where we are, how we know each other. Yeah, >> thank you, Bill. I'm so thrilled to be here today. I mean, I can't believe that you're in season 10. Congratulations.

3:50 161 episodes. That's a lot of episodes and experiences. So, I'm so happy to be part of it today. yeah, we know each other from being neighbors. I moved into this community about four years ago now. and I met your husband on the street when I was kind of acclimating and figuring things out. And as he jokes, he's the mayor of this community. So, he is just the loveliest human. And through him got to know you. And of course, every time you and I start talking about tech and work and everything in between, Jeff is usually like, "Okay, guys, let's talk about something else." So, this time, this is all we get to talk about today, so here's our opportunity.

4:29 >> yeah. I know it's it's interesting like being you know we were kind of talking a little bit before about how the world is really small and we're going to talk about that obviously both of us as third culture kids but it got even smaller when we realized that we knew some of the same people through Microsoft >> and actually at the time one of the people that I was working with on my team had worked with you >> prior to and so not only are we neighbors but our world and our work world was one big concentric circle for a while.

5:03 >> It's wild, too, right? The world really is smaller than we think. And what would have brought me to Reno, Nevada of all places, but work and Microsoft. And I I enjoyed that time in my life. It brought me a great ops experience and being part of a subsidiary, but also meeting just some lovely humans and especially the one you talk about as well. She's delightful. And to find that we have her in common as well was such a great coincidence. But I guess there's no such thing as a coincidence, is there?

5:31 >> I I kind of agree. There's no such thing as a coincidence, especially especially when we've traversed the world as much as we have. >> So, you're also one of the few third culture kids that has been on the podcast. And in the intro, my intro, I mentioned that I'm a third culture kid. And what's really interesting is a lot of listeners over the years have have reached out and said, "What is that?" like I don't I never heard that term before. When you and I met, I mentioned it and you definitely knew what it was.

6:05 >> Can you talk about what it means for you and maybe the first time you heard it and then we can kind of go from there because I think the discussion is going to be so generous based on the the world that you know, the world that I know and how small it is. >> Yeah, absolutely. So starting with the definition of third culture kid or TCK, it's an individual, a child who has spent a significant portion of their developmental years in a culture outside of their origin culture or their parents' culture. So the way I think about it, the third culture kid terminology comes from there being three cultures. The first being the culture of origin, the parents culture that they originated in. The second is the host culture, the culture that they grew up in. And this can be multiple cultures, right? Depending on how many countries they grew up in. That would be the second. And the third culture then becomes a hybrid and a blend of all of those, which becomes very much the identity question of where do they belong? Everywhere and nowhere at once.

7:11 And that's really the crux of it. And so what that means to me and we'll go through kind of a lot of the details I'm sure but essentially in that second piece of it the host culture and the growing up culture is I do have quite a few cultures there. My origin culture is India. I was born in Mumbai, India and very soon after I was born, we moved to Hungary, Hong Kong and Singapore and those places are my growing up years and the majority of that was spent in Singapore where really it shaped a lot of who I am. And I think the part of it that makes it even more nuanced is that I've spent my adult life in the US. And so not really developmental years, but I feel like that's also part of my TCK story because that's where I live now.

7:54 Yeah. Yeah. >> And so really all those cultures have shaped different layers of what makes me me. >> Yeah. So India, Hungary, Hong Kong, Singapore, US. So when we think about the question that everybody always asks us when you first meet somebody, one of the first things we always say is where are you from? And I remember growing up and struggling with that question because in my mind I would say do they want the long version or the short version. Exactly.

8:24 >> And so when someone asks you where are you from? What's the answer you want to give and the one you usually give instead? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I wish I could ask how much time do you have because based on that I'll give you the short or long version. I usually say Singapore because the truth of it is I did spend the majority of my growing up years in Singapore. So if this is a hallway conversation, if this is a passer by, I say Singapore and we keep moving. If it's a coffee chat and really get to know one another, then I'll give the longer version of listen Indian by origin, Singapore by passport, and you know, been in a long time in the US now. And so that's kind of how I describe it.

9:04 >> Yeah. I love that you say Singapore by passport >> because that was actually something we said very similarly when my family was, you know, traveling the world and growing up. I used to say you know I'm American by passport but I was so many other cultures in terms of influence and development as we were growing up and there were other times when you know given the way of the world you you didn't volunteer that you were American with a passport. There were a couple places we lived where we actually said we were Canadian because we wanted to lessen the, you know, the the chances of of having any altercations, right? and I do think it's interesting because Singapore is actually one of the most widely respected and world accepted passports around the world. Is that still true?

9:56 >> It really is. I mean, even when I think about any place that I need to go, for example, we for work had to go to Dublin last year. Had to go. I got to go to Shublin last year and I remember that my colleagues were like, "Oh man, we need to get a visa. We need to figure all of this out." And I didn't even give it a second thought because I knew that with that Singapore passport, it is an automatic getting to go to most countries and I don't really need to do anything separate for it, which is really a privilege. And you know, as you know, Singapore Airlines is also one of the best airline carriers as well. It's just it's an amazing country. And I think of it as >> it has also really evolved over the years. It started off amazing but even the evolution is beautiful too. It's gone from you know this clean disciplined efficient city to really this multicultural regional hub as well.

10:44 So the evolution is beautiful and I did like to think that I kind of grew up alongside Singapore too as it evolved. And I have a similar thought about Hungary and Hong Kong too, even though I was much younger when I lived in those countries. But when I was in Hungary, it was coming off of what over four decades of communism. And so really this was a society that was rebuilding itself. It was reinventing itself. So, not that I gave this a lot of thought as a one-year-old, but I thought a lot about the fact that as I reflect on it now, this was a society that was starting a very different fundamental shift in how it operated. And it makes me think that probably it was the beginnings of helping me embrace change and being good with ambiguity. And then when I think about Hong Kong, the time that I lived there for a couple of years, it was also going through this east meets west thing with British influence but Chinese heritage and how those themes got together again. Now on hindsight and reflecting makes me realize that it also made me think about how different cultures can coexist. They don't necessarily need to clash. They can overlap and create something new.

11:55 >> Yeah. And gosh, where we are in the world now and everything that's happening. I mean, that's such an important reminder that sadly we're not seeing very often in sort of the news and the headlines right now. >> I'm curious, without getting too much into the politics with what's happening in the world right now, do you reflect back on on that aspect of cultures can coexist and can co-evolve without clashing? Do you reflect on that quite a bit?

12:22 >> I do. When I when I think about that, I think about Singapore predominantly just because of how diverse and multicultural it is where there's so many spoken languages there and depending on what experience you want to have, you can have it over there. That's also part of the reason. Of course, my parents live there and that's why I go back every year. But when every time I do revisit, I love to just go to certain places and exhibit different parts of my culture depending on where I go. And Singapore allows for all of that, >> right? So even when I so I learned >> talking about the blend of east and west, I remember my parents put me in Indian singing and Indian dance classes, but it also balanced out with western piano and western violin. So even when I think about learning all of those cultures, but those were two different cultures and I got to embrace it all and then decide what I wanted to do. And it was really great having that opportunity.

13:17 >> Yeah, I love I love that reminder. It's also it's one of those things I always think about how many of us third culture kids actually played an instrument as we were growing up and living in different countries. >> it is a good reminder. >> So the concept of home is one that I know I've struggled with a lot. So growing up across cultures, what did home mean to you back then? I mean you had mentioned obviously Hungary you were one in Hong Kong you were probably a couple you know toddler into some of the formative childhood years. Did the concept of home was it clear to you? Was it something that was instilled upon you at an early age?

13:55 >> I think that I have always connected home with people instead of the geography in which it resides. And for me, that really is my parents. Again, only child over here, no siblings. And I I bit of a tangent, but I've always been asked the question, man, don't you wish you had a sibling? And the truth of it is I I never did. I was always so happy. This sounds a little bit odd, but being my parents favorite, I enjoyed that a lot. I enjoyed kind of having all their attention to myself and I really reveled in it. And so when I think about whether it was Hungary, Hong Kong, Singapore, all I remember are the different memories with my parents. And that's what made those years just so fun to reminisce and cherish. Even in Hungary, for example, it was encountering snow for the first time. And I remember I would make these, you know, slithery tiny oval snowballs. And my dad, of course, would make the perfect spherical ones and I'd be like, "How does he do that?" we would have neighbors that allowed me to meet dogs for the first time. And I would play with dogs and that's probably, you know, way back then what led me getting my dog today. And, you know, watching my neighbors grow fruits and vegetables in their garden.

15:10 Those are experiences that I remember from Hungary. But again, it's the people that drove those experiences. And again, like because I got the privilege of living in all these places because of my dad's job. Learning all these different cultures and all the subconscious learning that came with it as well, I think is a big big reason of kind of how I formed into what I am. But really, my parents are at the root of it. And they still are.

15:32 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I love that reminder. the power of people giving you the sense of home as opposed to a doicile or opposed to a geography or even a passport and you know as as you mentioned as an aside my mom always used to say to me as you know I'm one of six my mom used to say to me you should have been an only child because not in a bad way not in in in a in a disparaging way she used to say it because she said you can entertain yourself for hours like you have a vibrant imagination you're completely fine being alone you don't rely on anybody. You're very independent. so she used to say that to me. She's like, "You you should have been an only child." Which I which is always funny coming from a a family of six children.

16:15 So >> I love it. >> you talked a little bit about it. This concept of knowing that you were living between worlds. >> when did you first realize that you were living between worlds? and then you know conversely understanding that you're residing sort of in one at for a certain amount of time. >> One clear reminder of it is the fact that my parents put me in international schools my entire schooling life, right?

16:48 Whether it was Hungary, Hong Kong, Singapore, I always went to international schools, British schools. And I think you realize when you see people different from you, you kind of talk to different people that you come from different worlds. And I think that's beautiful because you learn just so many things. I personally, I think one of my real passion areas is learning about different people and understanding where people come from. It's why even in my day-to-day and work today, I always love the five minutes of just talking to someone and understanding more about them before diving into the work. It's just I love understanding people. And I think that did start from really my school days. I I when I went to these British schools and I realized that the experiences that we went through are just so drastically different and getting to learn about them and also we would have United Nations Day and and opportunities like that where we would dress in our of course, you know, country of origin or put on our emblematic outfits but also perform right through song, through dance, through drama. And to be able to learn all that, I think that was what made me realize, you know, there are different worlds and I am one part of it, but I also get to learn different parts of it as well.

17:57 >> Yeah. I love I love the reminder of the power of international school because I I got that too growing up and I I know a lot of friends who are actually choosing to put their kids into international schools for that reason. >> Yeah. you just get a little more exposure and so it is it is interesting how much a classroom can be that in between worlds if we allow it to. >> Exactly. And and I think one anecdote that also reminds me that I'm a blend of different roles is the fact that even when I say, "Oh, are we going to take the lift here?" people look at me be like, "What do you mean lift?" I go, "Oh, elevator. Sorry." Similarly, "Oh, are we going to park in the car park? Do you mean garage?" "Yes, yes, that is what I mean." So even when I use different words and part of it is using different words for different things, but the other is also like the accent that I use too. I think at a point in time I said epiome and then one guy kindly corrected me. He goes, Trish, it's epitome. I So, thank you, Ben. I appreciate Thank you. I would not have known otherwise. So, sometimes it's pronunciation. It's the words you use, but it really is just a myriad of different experiences.

19:03 >> You know, I still I still spell behavior with a U. >> Yeah, there you Because the first time I encountered the word behavior was in a science book and I was in an international school and all the textbooks were British textbooks. >> Exactly. It's the gray gray y gr I think I go back and forth on both depending on who I'm talking to. >> Exactly. so when you think about Indian roots >> raised predominantly in Singapore, what parts of yourself felt most visible while other parts stayed quiet when you reflect on that? Yeah, when I think about visible, I I connect that to Audible as well, but very much I would say the performing arts piece of it because like I mentioned, my parents put me in different classes to kind of, you know, see what I thrived in. And for me, singing was a huge opportunity to do that. I enjoyed it. I was good at it and I was able to perform in a lot of places. So, I would say, you know, and that's Indian classical music to be clear. So we call it karnatic music, Indian classical music and it shares a lot of overlap with western music but it's very technical >> and so getting to learn that and also getting to perform it whether it's part of the United Nations night and even in college for that matter over here we would have things called Indian classical night we'd have India day and I'd get to perform for those as well so I really appreciated and enjoyed quite frankly sharing those aspects of my culture when I think about things that are probably quieter than that it would be habits for me. and I always look at myself as a very interesting blend of traditional and modern and some are invisible, right? Like looking at me, I don't think people would guess what my dietary restrictions are, what my religious preferences are. So I would say I am traditional quote unquote in the sense that I'm vegetarian. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I am religious.

21:02 I'm a practicing Hindu. But at the same time, I'm very modern in the sense that I am very independent. I'm globally minded. I love personal autonomy. So those are all elements when you bring it all together. It is very hybrid, but at the same time, it's an identity that is more of a mosaic than it is like a story. >> I love that analogy, the mosaic, because it's one of those things that if you were really, really close to the mosaic, you wouldn't see the full picture, right? You might see one of the stones and one of the colors, but you couldn't judge it just based on that. And then at the same time, if you were too far back, then you think it's actually one piece of art when it's when it's all these intricate stones that make it. So, I love that analogy. And I think to be reminded of habits, I mean, the quietness of habits is really, really important to think about kind of as we move through the world. so I really appreci I really appreciate that and I I hadn't thought about that as well in my own identity, right? This third culture kid, multicultural for sure, but what are the quiet habits versus what are the audible, you know, interactions?

22:10 So you came to the United States >> and you've lived in very different parts of the United States. I think if I have it correct, you lived in Virginia and then Nevada and now Washington State. Each have their own culture. Obviously, the United States is is a massive culture with with unique aspects in every corner. What did each place or state teach you about belonging? >> Oh, that's such a great question. you are right. First of all, good memory.

22:41 I guess Virginia, Nevada, Washington are the three states that I've been in. I would have to say I equated belonging to the different phases of my life that I was in at the time. And for me, I equated Virginia with school because that's really what I did. I was there for college. I went back for my MBA and I it's it's a collegecentric town and it's beautiful and I think I really felt the sense of belonging over there and I think I do actually there are two questions that I get. One of the questions are when I moved to the US, I would get, "Wait, you're from Singapore, but your English is so good." And I and I'm like again, how much time do we have?

23:22 >> Let me explain. >> So really, if it was the quick answer, I'll just say thank you and keep moving. But otherwise, I' I'd explain that listen, I went to international schools where, you know, it's not that I was speaking Mandarin in in Singapore and then I now have to acclimate to English. Not at all. Right. but that was kind of one of the things. But I think the other thing of it is it was just an amazing town to kind of be in and embrace just everything it is about the school and everything was everyone was so kind and friendly. And when I think about my experiences over there, the other question I get was, man, was it wasn't it such a culture shock for you? You grew up outside of the US and now coming to the US at 18.

24:04 But frankly, I think because I lived in so many countries prior to that, it wasn't really a culture shock. Not to mention the fact that I grew up on, you know, sitcoms and all the things. So, I wasn't shocked to hear people speaking the way they spoke. So, I really enjoyed it. And I think it was a very seamless transition thanks to my background and not because of it. >> I agree. I mean, it's so interesting how much a college town in itself is its own culture, right? and Charlottesville, University of Virginia, >> it is very much a culture in itself. And and also just being 18 and coming to university, it's kind of supposed to be this whole mix of meeting new people, understanding where you come from, getting that question, where's home? I remember when I went to university and I came from overseas as well >> and I was explaining where I'd come from from high school but then explaining where my parents were living and I remember people thinking are you like European royalty I was like not at all like not at all but the concept of having gone to high school in Russia you know my parents living in Germany and then in Switzerland I mean to people that grew grew up in New Jersey and maybe in the same town and knew everybody, you know, in their town. This was foreign and and the concept of explaining that to them. I remember to your point, I was like, how much time do I have and am I really invested in this to explain it to them?

25:36 >> It's true. And I I sometimes the differences would come to light in very minor situations like it's Thanksgiving. Everyone goes back at the time to NOVA or Northern Virginia and I would be like, "Thanks, guys, but I'm, you know, I'm just gonna stay back." You're not gonna go home. Go, no, because it's gonna take a day to go back. So, I think it would defeat the purpose. But it's in those kinds of interactions that, you know, is so minor, but then you realize, wow, there is a difference in kind of where we've spent our upbringing and kind of our our growing up years.

26:07 >> Yeah. And then Nevada, Reno, very different. What was that like? >> Oh my gosh. It was I enjoyed it. I'll I'll start it with that. I think a lot of colleagues and you know MBA classmates of mine at the time when I knew that I was going to go to Nevada, I feel like the impression was, "Oh boy, good luck." And I thought, "Oh my goodness, I I don't know." And again, Nevada was very much a surprise to me as well. So the quick backstory is, you know, I I kind of interned at Microsoft and my full-time offer was set to be in Seattle due to a turn of events. wasn't. And so they gave me the option of, hey, you know, you're going to be in operations and you're not going to be in Washington State anymore. You're going to be in Nevada and Reno. And at the time I was like, man, where is that? I need to go.

26:56 That was my first reaction. I go, I got to figure out where I'm going. But I loved the culture of Microsoft so much that for me, despite having some other offers, it was a no-brainer that I wanted to go back to Microsoft. But I was like, "Okay, now I need to figure out where is this place and what the culture of this place is and how would I fit in?" And also, normally post business school, you have a community of classmates that go to the same place as you. I was the only one going to Reno.

27:22 So that was the other thing too where it was new. I almost felt like I was going to college again in the sense that I was coming to a new place with no roots, with no peers or friends along with me for the ride. So I there was definitely that hesitancy in that sense, but I was also excited because I wanted to have that new experience. And frankly, when you're younger, I feel like that's even more so the opportunity to do those cuz there's such little risk in kind of weighing your options. And so I I really enjoyed it. I thought the people were lovely. And then my elevator pitch that got a ton of my friends to come visit was that it was a 30inut drive from Lake Tahoe.

28:03 >> That's right. and everyone would come, they'd be like, "All right, let's go to Tahoe." So, I would say the first year that I was in Reno. I probably made, I don't know, 20 visits to Tahoe that year cuz I had friends visiting and we'd go and enjoy the beautiful outdoors and the mountains and it's a very it's very outdoorsy. It's beautiful. So, I I enjoyed it a lot. Again, I wouldn't say I felt a huge culture shock or anything like that, but I think I learned a lot about, you know, operations and what that is at Microsoft from a from a organizational standpoint. And then I also got to be more outdoorsy which is something I really never was before. So it kind of I think elevated me as a person.

28:39 >> And I think the other part of it is like just joining an organization like Microsoft is kind of like joining a large state college or state university right >> where you have to figure it all figure out all of the >> rituals and the habits and customs all over again. Right. >> It's true. And I think the other element of it is at the time it was called, you know, mock or Microsoft Academy of College Hires. So we were all a community of folks that had graduated from different colleges, but we were all starting to your point new at Microsoft.

29:11 And I think the first year I kind of got to know them and then from the second year I actually helped become the mock lead and help kind of create events for them because I think there is that communal pace of understanding that hey let's let's have some infrastructure for us. Let's have something that helps us unite and helps us kind of understand where we come from, but also build events to help us grow together. So, that helped too.

29:33 >> Yeah. A bit of a soft landing. Yeah. And then you came to Washington State and what was that transition like? >> Oh, that was amazing. I I have a lot of fond memories from the time that I started in in Washington state. First of all, I had interned here. So, I did have that experience. So, let me tell you, as interns at Microsoft, man, they spoil you rotten. I it's a different place of privilege is what I'll say.

29:59 Like, I remember that at the time, right now with hybrid and the pandemic, we're in a much different era. But back then, there would always be this signature summer event where a different entertainer would perform. And I feel like the years prior it was Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, Maroon 5, and everyone was like, "What is it gonna be this year?" And our year it was David Blaine and he performed Magic. I listen, I'm a huge fan of Magic. I watch Magic for fun. So I was thrilled, but folks were not happy. They were like, "Listen, we can't get Taylor Swift. We get David Blaine." And I'm like, "Okay, this is just expectations versus reality." But I just remember, you know, they treat you so amazingly as an intern. So, I knew what I was expecting and kind of what I was going to get from a city standpoint cuz they're very smart to do it. The fact that internship is for the summer, Seattle is also at its best during the summer as we know. So, they expose you to the city. So, from a city perspective, I knew what I was getting.

30:59 And then from a work perspective, I was coming back into sales and marketing from operations. So, for me, there was a learning curve there, but I was also just excited to come back to the city that I'd got to experience for 3 months. but this time I chose to be on the east side instead of Seattle again just for commute purposes but it's it was beautiful. I only have positive things to say. I think you know for me I place a lot of kind of my selfworth also in my job. So for me I think success and how I acclimated was also shining through work but then part of it was also kind of setting roots in this new place and also reconnecting with my friends from business school with my friends from college those that were placed in Seattle and really reviving those connections too. Yeah. And I think I mean obviously I'm a little bit biased because we live in Washington State, but I think it's really fascinating how international this part of the country is and and actually this part of the community that we live in.

31:55 >> Yeah. >> you know to to be in a state but also have your community, >> right? to be able to connect with Indian culture events, Singaporean cultural events, right? >> the town that we live in here in Redmond, which is obviously where Microsoft headquarters is, I mean, I think about all the festivities they have downtown, you know, Dvali and all like there's so many events. So, has that been kind of unexpected and joyous in a way to be able to again going back to the third culture kid part of you?

32:30 You know, you step outside your front door, there's so many parts of you. You're a Microsoft employee, but you're also a third culture kid, but you're also a homeowner, but you're also How has that been living in this part of the world where you can tap into those other parts of who you are? >> It was amazing. Like you said, I think especially when I think about it from my Indian roots. Amazing, right? I think like I mentioned to you, I'm you know, I'm religious too. I go to the temple.

32:57 There's so many temples here. So, I can definitely live out that part of me versus Reno, not a temple at that time. >> And so, I I enjoyed that a lot. And then, you know, depending on the different festivals, there's so many things to celebrate. I remember so Holy is is a festival, right, that happens around March. And I do remember that the the following week kind of post the holy celebrations I had colleagues of mine non-Indian colleagues basically like oh my goodness we celebrated holy this past week and it was amazing and I thought wow look at that you know I have different people telling me what holi is and I just thought how beautiful that you know really this is a place where different cultures different festivals are being celebrated for their differences and just being celebrated for what they are and I just thought That's beautiful. So yes, I've enjoyed that a lot kind of and also I've reconnected with my kind of passions too, right? Versus whether it's singing or other things. I've really enjoyed being able to do that here. cuz I have a big passion not only for Indian classical music but also for Bollywood and anything you want. I think the the opportunities here and so I've never felt a lack of oh man I really want to live out this part of my passion but there is no forum that exists. No, it all exists here which is amazing.

34:13 Yeah, I really love that aspect when you think about how all this sort of I I call it translation, right? But we do cultural translation, social translation, professional translation, even linguistic translation. how does it shape how you show up at work? I mean, obviously you work for a multicultural company, multinational company. How does all of this shape how you show up every day at work? What I love is I'm sure this is true for broader tech companies too, but definitely for Microsoft. So, it starts with, and this is such a simple thing, and I'm sure they do it at other companies too, but really in the genuine understanding and wanting to know how you want to be addressed. And so, it's so funny to me that the first thing that I was asked, and I get asked it multiple times, even today, is do you prefer Trish or Trishala? And that always makes me chuckle, but I say, you know, Trish is fine. And so I go by Trish at Microsoft and you know, but I what I see there is a genuine curiosity and interest in folks wanting to understand and also go by my preference rather than well this is what it says in the address book that's what we're going to go with.

35:19 So I appreciate that. And when I think about how I show up at work, I don't have to really I would say code switch a lot. >> I think there is this you know again I have to attribute this to the fact that I did go to international schools. I did kind of only operate in English in terms of the spoken medium. So there's not a lot of adapting that needs to be done there. but what I really appreciate is that Microsoft does have a lot of like for example there's an Indians at Microsoft alias if I did want to tap into my Indian roots. We have so many celebrations like there's a Diwali celebration that happens every year that I'm able to have the privilege to sing at. There are those kinds of things. we have this huge we have this huge event called give, right, which is our opportunity to really tap into all these charitable organizations and create events. And so as the give lead last year, I was able to really tap into different events that I wanted to be a part of, but also have everyone join us.

36:16 So in my mind, those are all avenues in which I feel included. I feel like I can tap into, but I don't have to change who I am. >> I love that. Yeah. And those are I I remember one of the one of the things I remember from my days at Microsoft. There was an the Irish at Microsoft >> was was a handle. And I thought there's no way that there's like a whole group of Irish people at Microsoft that just gather and talk.

36:41 >> And sure enough there there there is. Yeah. and I joined it and there was an Irish author and filmmaker who who came to speak to us >> on campus >> and it was incredible. And to your point around being with a group of people where >> you know that they know the customs and you don't you don't even have to explain anything. It's just you fit in right away. >> Yeah. >> and that's that's like a subculture to a subculture to a subculture for me, right? that's almost like heritage. So, it was it was really unique and very distinguished and I remember that being sort of a a bright light for me when I was trying to find my way. I could have jumped in for veterans. I could have jumped in for LGBT. I could have jumped in, but the thing I went to first was Irish at Microsoft.

37:34 There's an alias for everything. so when you think about aspirations and dreams, which I think as third culture kids, we have very vibrant, vivid dreams because we've lived in a vibrant, vivid world. >> Yeah. >> Do you see yourself resigning in one place or do you see yourself remaining a global citizen who is navigating multiple citizenships? >> Well, I will say I love Singapore a lot. It is always going to be home for me. That being said, I can't be a dual citizen of the US and Singapore. That is not an option for me. And so, you know, if wishes were horses, that would be great. But in in in reality, I do see myself continuing to be in the US, all going well, of course. And I would say that, you know, one more nuance to my journey here is that I am on an H-1B visa. I'm on a work visa. And of course that's always, you know, interesting having been in the US and lived in the US for a very very long time to still be on a visa is a very different dynamic.

38:39 That being said, like I long term see myself continuing here, kind of thriving, living my best life. However, this is why going back to Singapore is so important for me. It's comfort for me. It really feeds the soul. And like I told you earlier, for me, I equate everything about culture and kind of belonging with my family. And my parents still live in Singapore. So I see myself continuing to be here, but also making those at a minimum annual trips back to Singapore. And when I do that, I got to go to India, too. And India, of course, there's a lot of places, but you know, kind of we prioritize based on family, temple, all of the above. But I got to do Singapore in India. so that I also have those couple of weeks in a year where I get to live, you know, my my roots and kind of embrace that culture.

39:27 >> And I love how it's less about logistics, it's more about people for you. So it's it's it's going to places where you know you're going to see the people that remind you who you are. >> And it really is about nostalgia, too. You know, whether it's Singapore or India, for me, it's like the favorite people that I know, the favorite food that I used to eat. And even colleagues of mine, we used to go to this in Singapore. You know, the street food is you you eat in a place called a hawker center. So, it's kind of like I meet my colleagues, we go to the favorite hawker center. I just have the amazing food, but it's also the experience and like you said, the people you enjoy it with that makes it all the more rewarding.

40:03 >> Yeah, such an important reminder. people who live between cultures understand a lot of things, but what do you think they understand the most about change that others might miss? >> I believe they are very adept at dealing with change given the change that they've gone through. And I do believe a lot of this is subconscious, right? Especially when you go through this as a child in a lot of your developmental years, you don't really realize at the moment everything that you're going through, but it shows up in the way you deal with your day-to-day. It also puts a lot of things at perspective. Now, in you know, I'm a I'm a director of marketing at Microsoft and there's sometimes there'll be fire drills.

40:49 There's going to be certain high pressure situations, but in my mind, I rather than getting stressed and of course I will get stressed. I don't want to paint a pretty picture here, but I think I think about the broader perspective of things and I'm like, you know, it'll be okay. We'll figure this out. And I feel like for me, that's always been my indicator of, you know, it's going to be okay. Nothing is the end of the world. Nothing is the end of the world and I'm going to be able to deal with this. So, I would say when I think about TCK's in general, they're very used to ambiguity because they've gone through the changes for so much of their life. And I think there's this underlying motto that everything can work itself out.

41:30 >> Yeah. I love that you named ambiguity because it's so present. It's so present in everything that we're doing in tech, in the world, in politics. There's so much there. And so to know that TCK's almost have a precourse to it, right? Subconsciously, they didn't even know they were signing up for that class. it comes in handy. It does. >> It comes in handy. I appreciate that. when you think about how you lead, I think you touched on this a little bit, but how you lead, how you collaborate, how you create belonging for others, do you think your TCK experience comes comes into play?

42:06 >> I think so. when I what I said earlier was I really enjoy getting to know people for who they are and I especially on intro calls with people, I love their origin story. I always start with just tell me about you. tell me who you are. And sometimes people start with, "Okay, well, I've been at Microsoft for seven years." And I go, "No, no, go before that. Go earlier. I want I really want to hear in a nutshell what makes you you." And I've always been that way. And I think it is because my growing up years are so varied that I want to understand people's past and understand what makes them so uniquely themselves. So I would say it does it does definitely play a role in how I lead, how I interact, not only with my team, but also my stakeholders, my leaders, and I enjoy getting to know everyone's kind of unique traits.

42:58 >> Everyone loves a good origin story, right? I mean, if we think about Hollywood and the movies and even the comic book stories, everything's an origin story. So absolutely, >> you know, that's the beginning of the hero's journey in a way. It's like, where did you start? And I love that. I really appreciate that. how much do you think of yourself as a cultural ambassador in your working role as well? I think it's both life and work for you.

43:23 >> I it is so broad when I think about cultural ambassador and the use cases for those are very varied I would say. So if I start from a work standpoint, I like to get involved in different clubs, organizations, events where I feel like I can contribute something. So the examples that I'd mentioned of, you know, being a give lead, being part of the women of marketing organization, participating at Dvali events, being able to, you know, sing and dance and do those things, I feel like that's a way of contributing and participating in my culture and giving a little bit back.

44:00 That's from a work standpoint. And outside of what we just talked about, which is really making folks feel welcome, but also understanding about them and also how we can make Microsoft a great place for them to work as well, especially for those early in career. And then when I think about it from a day-to-day outside of work, I enjoy kind of learning about what different events go on in the community as well and how I can be a part of that as well, right? Whether and my job at marketing is actually to work with small and medium businesses. So, I take that passion outside of work, too. When I see if there's different SMBs, how can I tap into what they're doing? And especially if there is something that ties me to my roots or something from my past life, how can I help make their entry a little bit easier? That's something that I enjoy doing. and then like I mentioned, my affiliation with the temples as well. There's different temple events that I tap into as well.

44:51 So, I like bringing all of that together. >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's this element of ambassadorship which is it's it's lived. It's it's breathed. It's should almost be effortless, right? And I think that's the joy of Mountain Living where we live because you're right, this community is is so flushed with all of these wonderful opportunities for people to really represent who they are in a very generous and accepting and inviting way, which I think only makes a community better. and so >> yeah, I appreciate that. As you think about where you are now as opposed to when you were growing up, the concept of home, it seems like, I'm just guessing here, it seems like that definition of home hasn't really changed. If anything, it's gotten more more pristine about being people. But what does home mean to you now?

45:46 >> When I'm back with my parents in Singapore, I'm home. When my parents visit me in the US, I'm home. That's really how I feel. Like for me, it's where my family is because when you can be with your family, when you can be yourself, when you can and for me, I I love my parents to death. I'm frankly just very very privileged to have such amazing individuals that are my parents. And to be able to express myself freely, have them express themselves freely, and be able to do something for them, no matter how little, whether it's ordering takeout or being able to cook their favorite food. Things like that make me feel like I'm I'm with my favorite people and I'm home. So for me, you know, thematically, like I've said, home is where my parents are, where my family is. And of course, now that extends to my dog, Archie. So when we're all together, I'm at my happiest.

46:37 >> It's wonderful. if someone listening to this feels like they don't belong fully anywhere, either in the world or work, what would you want them to hear today about about this discussion? Well, it's never that simple. It's very very nuanced because I I would want to understand more. And that's how I feel. I'd say when you say you don't belong fully, what does that mean? Let's to our topic of the origin story. Let's unpack that a little bit. Let's talk about what that means. Do you feel like you don't belong because you grew up in a certain place or you were born in a certain place and those cultures don't mirror over to where you're currently at or is it something with habits that you feel you're not able to pick up and if it doesn't exist create it if that's something you can do or you know broaden your network find people that can maybe help and I always offer myself as a resource there if this is someone that I know and there is a gap I try to help as as best I can to be able to bridge that gap as well.

47:42 >> I love that reminder. Create it, right? If it's I mean, we we say it we say it effortlessly sometimes. I know it takes a lot of work. Create the change you want to see in the world. Yeah, I appreciate that. last question. What are you still becoming that your younger, constantly moving self couldn't yet imagine? Gosh, when I think about my young self, I feel like she was full of hope and I think she had a lot of dreams and I feel happy reflecting today that I think a lot of those dreams have come true and in that sense I think that she would be very happy in the sense that when I mentioned one of the one of the differences between traditional and modern thinking is you you're you've held on to your traditional values, but you've also been modern in the sense that you're independent, you're globally minded. I feel like I've embraced all of those things. I think for me, what would be the next step is when we talked about, hey, if it doesn't exist, create it. For me, it's a little bit more about, hey, I know that I love I love the arts. I love being able to be a strong part of that.

48:59 who knows at one point maybe I'd want to be an entrepreneur and really take that to the next level now whether that's a music school whether that's you know being on the board of some big music organization that might be you know the next step but I think getting into that and really having that go hand in hand as I also just really enjoy my career at Microsoft I think that would probably be something I'd want to do next >> thank you this was a master class in change and origin story I got to say like I know we've known each other a long time but I have learned so much that I thought are new but I didn't which is honestly a great testimony to a great conversation because it leaves you wanting more. There's all these elements of who we are >> and even when we think we've sort of reached the liinal of it there's more.

49:43 So thank you Trish for joining the podcast and sharing your story. Is there anything else that you you haven't hit on or you'd like to share with people in terms of to learn more about you? >> No, thank you. I I just want to genuinely thank you. I think for folks that don't know, Bill is just the most amazing human that I am grateful to know and be friends with. And I I've just had a blast being on here today. I think that you know, like you said, it's one of those things where we obviously meet up and we go on walks together. We go, you know, we spend a lot of time together, but I think being in this situation talking about a certain theme, I think, opens up a lot of things and makes us want to continue having these discussions. So, I appreciate it and I've really enjoyed being here today.

50:29 >> Yeah, thank you. >> There you go. That's it.