Best 30 Caliber Hunting Cartridges EVER, with Ron Spomer

0:00 For more than a century, America has been a nation of 30 caliber cartridge hunters. I really think that dynamic has shifted in the last 10 years with all the 65s, the 7mm, the new 6.8 and so forth. But I think it could a case could be made that for across the spectrum use on everything from analopee and white tail deer up to moose, bison, and the big bears. If you're a one cartridge kind of guy, a 30 is probably still where it's at.

0:34 Yeah, there's no arguing that. It's the all-American cartridge. There's at my research indicated there was one 30 caliber cartridge in the world before we came up with the 3030 >> 3040 Craig roughly the same time. >> What about the 303 British? When did that come out? >> Yeah, that might have beaten it. But what was the diameter? Was that a >> 311? 11. >> Yeah. >> 311. So I had threw it out the window. Doesn't count. Sorry.

1:01 >> Shuck it. >> Folks, thanks for tuning in. Today I'm here with my great old friend Ron Spmer. >> Emphasis on old. >> Old but well preserved. We are here to talk about all things 30 caliber. And for those of you watching on YouTube, you can see in front of us, we've got a great lineup of cartridge cartridges here. I've just done a little quick scan. I believe we got a dozen. That all >> a dirty dozen great 30s. Dirty dozens.

1:28 >> But we didn't look far enough, man. There's another two dozen out there. >> Oh, there are. But we ended up, you know, I went through your stash of 30 caliber cartridges here and kind of selected the ones that I felt are the most significant and and still most relevant. You know, some didn't make the cut. For example, 30TC and the 30 RCM 300 RCM cartridges like that. But we can talk about some of these. Uh we're definitely going to pick favorites and then also talk about what's probably the most practical whether it's a favorite or not. Sometimes the two actually line up.

2:03 >> Yeah, once in a while. Good point there. Hey, this is really preient of you to do this because this is the book I'm currently working on. My next book is on the 30 calibers. >> Outstanding. >> I'm not half done. So stay tuned, guys. I will have it covering all of the I don't know actually if I'm going to get all of the 30s because the deeper I dive >> the more I come up with and my typing fingers are getting worn out. There are so many unbelievable number of them.

2:30 >> Just on that note, a couple years ago you wrote your book of 7mm cartridges >> and I've got a copy of that. I read it cover to cover. Fantastic book. So folks, if you don't already have one of those, check them out. You can get one signed from Ron. >> Amen. >> And then when the 30s come out, grab one of them, too. >> Okay. I got to start this off with a a story about a big mu deer and a bizarre cartridge.

2:54 >> A bizarre cartridge. >> I was 16 years old in the West driving a little tin can with a driver's ed instructor beside me. And he found out that I liked guns and hunting. And so we had a great time getting all our hours in, right? and he one day he pointed up at the top of this giant domed mountain above Timberline and said, "I shot the biggest buck I've ever taken on top of that mountain." I like, "Really? That's cool. That's great. Big buck country. What'd you shoot him with?" As one does. He said, "A 30 carbine."

3:34 He really used a 30 carbine. >> That's what he told me. >> 110 grain bullet. >> I assume so. I mean, most of those were FMJs, right? >> Yeah. Right. Where do you find the ammo? >> He probably had a little soft nose of some sort, but he said, "It's what I had when that big buck jumped up, so I used it." >> Yeah. Wow. >> And I know there's a lot of people listening and watching that probably that will resonate with them. You know, if you have a good rifle, whatever it is, when that giant buck shows up or when a coyote pops up, you use it, right?

4:06 >> Yeah. That's the the old answer to what's the best cartridge out there, whatever you've got in your gun at the time. >> Yeah. So, I know you started off with a very classic traditional uh 30 caliber cartridge as well. >> Oh, yeah. Talk about it. Nothing to talk about. Everyone already knows all about the 3030 Winchester. But they might not know that it was introduced as the 30 Winchester center fire. Wasn't called the 3030. Uh it used 30 uh grains of smokeless powder. That was its big claim to fame at the time.

4:40 It was relatively fast. >> Yeah, >> it was new because it was burning smokeless powder in a consumer rifle, not military. 3040 Craig came out almost exactly the same time in the military arms, but uh this was designed specifically for hunters in a leveraction Winchester rifle. And that's that that pair just really made it. >> Yes. And you know what's what's fun? This is one of the few cases in history where a civilian oriented cartridge actually lasted longer and made a bigger splash than a military cartridge.

5:16 >> Yep. It outlasted the 3040 Craig. The 3040 Craig gave up the Ghost in 303 with the 303 cartridge that didn't last long until it got modified to the 3006, >> but basically the same thing. And then 3040 Craig was gone. And I I think the reason that the American populace did not grab a hold of that and use the 3030 instead was the rifle. >> The lever action rifles were so popular and well known with hunters. Then these the new bold action things were like, I don't know, guys. That's a little weird.

5:49 It wasn't until after World War I when all the doughboys were using the Springfields that suddenly the bold action had a little traction. >> They really understood its advantages. Yeah. So, this is a fine old lever action here. You're not going to tell me this was your gun as a kid. >> Wish it was, but no, I got rid of that when I discovered Velocity. >> Ah, shame. >> Shame. Yeah. Yeah. I switched to a seven, no, six mm uh Remington.

6:16 >> Okay. >> In a model 788, inexpensive. I think I got it for $80 or something. >> Wow. >> But I was uh trying to shoot some foxes after the deer season with 3030 with open sights. It's not your best option, >> right? So I said it's time to move up to get a little speed here. So I gave it up. Back in those days I had to sell a rifle in order to buy another one.

6:34 >> Yeah, I know that since I'm still there. >> So this is a modern version. Yeah, >> made in Moroku. You know what's what's cool? I know a lot of people >> say ah it's a you know it's a travesty for a lever action to be made in Japan. But the fact of the matter is folks, >> they know how to build a good rifle. They make beautiful rifles over there. >> And they shoot really, really well.

6:57 They're putting some of the best quality barrels on lever actions that have ever been, I believe. >> Yeah. >> Just plays out when you go out and shoot them. >> And you know what? It really doesn't matter all that much, even going back to the old guys and whatever, because they they hunted. They got close. So, it didn't matter if you didn't have a half MOA or even a minute of angle. If you had a lever action that would cluster 2 in groups, that was bragging, right?

7:20 >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. And for most of the shooting, you're doing at 100 yards anyway, >> right? >> Maybe 150 and in. >> So, I grew up with a cowboy pal uh punching cows for a descendant of the original uh man that settled the area. And his first hunting season ever in that state at the time was 14 years old. He borrowed his father's 3030 with a 26-inch octagon barrel. H >> it was a commemorative of some sort or other but it shot pretty well.

7:56 Opening day came and went. At the end we visited and exchanged notes and he had a little two-point buck to show and I said tell me about it. He's like it's a long shot. I said really what happened? And he I rode to this end of this messa and this buck took off from the down in the bottom just running and I bled off my horse and I just kind of held above him and and let him because he was running and I was in front of his antlers and I shot and he disappeared.

8:25 I said, "Did you hit him?" He said, "Well, he never came out from behind that tree." So I got back on my horse and rode around and rode down in there and he was laying right there. I shot through the top of his back and when I gutted him, there was a hole through his heart. >> Oh my gosh. >> And I said, "About how far was it?" And he said, "It's a long way." >> A long way.

8:47 >> A couple days later, we rode up in there so he could show me. And looking back, this was before rangefinders. That was at least 350 yard. Might have been 400 yards. >> Young teenager, right? Excited. And he just threw a Hail Mary and got lucky. This is not advised with your lever action 30 folks. Even with a 26 inch octagon barrel. >> Got that right. Yeah. Crazy stuff. >> Crazy stuff and cool stories. Shooting big bucks with 30 carbines and little bucks at 400 yards with a 3030. You know, >> you know, a great book would be to compile 3030 stories.

9:23 >> Yeah. >> Get all the old-timers and what happened. I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who still remember what grandpa said happened to him back in the 20s when he was a kid or something like that. I bet you there's some stories to be told. >> No doubt. >> Well, Ron, let's get a little bit more technical here. And uh I want to I want to hear about your favorite 30 caliber cartridge to hunt with.

9:50 >> And and I'm not just saying like the one you've had the best experience with or whatever. Obviously, you've got nostalgic feelings for the 3030, but I don't know if you'd choose that for another hunt today. >> So, if you were to pick one that you just love, but also has good capability and take it to field, which one's it going to be? You know, you think, um, 300 Win Mag, 30 >> because they're so wellnown.

10:17 But in recent years, I've really started to appreciate that 300 H&H. M we're speaking the same language. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can get into that. But I am also sort of in my stable. I have hung on to a 300 WSM. >> Okay. >> The reason being you look really hard at it and it's doing exactly what the standard 300 Win Mag does in the short action. >> Sure. >> And when you've come to appreciate the feel of a short action, it's no big deal, but it's a deal.

10:50 >> Yeah. >> And I do like that. I do like those short actions and that think that you're getting the same performance >> in that kind of a rifle as you would with your standard in a 300 Win Mag and why not? So, I sold my 300 Win Mag and kept this 300 WSM and that is sort of my 30 caliber go-to if I need to hunt with a 30 caliber or want to. That one or the 300 6 are the two I keep in the stable at all times.

11:16 >> Wise. So tell me, do you think the 300 WSM has a big future? >> I think it's going to hang on longer than any of the other WSM or the Psalms other than the seven Psalm that's caught on now, especially in the long range precision shooting world. >> So, that one's going to stick around. And I thought that the WSM would stick around for the same reasons I like it. guys who like to have a short action and all that efficiency business and appreciate the performance of a 300 Win Mag, but now there's the 300 PRC. So, it's gotten a little bit cloudy. I'm not really sure who's going to win out on this. I kind of have have a hunch that with the younger shooters coming on board, if they look at the performance potential of that 300 PRC and compare it to the standard 300 Win Mag, that one's going to start to fade a bit. But to its advantage that's been around for so long, 1963, there are so many rifles that it's a lot like the 3006 in that those rifles are out there and they're so durable they're going to last.

12:20 >> Yeah. >> So, you're going to inherit it from your dad or your grandpa and then you're going to use it because it still does everything you need it to do. That's not really the issue. But the guys who are looking for the latest and greatest and absolutely the best in a modern rifle, I probably would start off with that PRC >> 300 PRC. >> And then if there are guys like me that just really appreciate a short, light, quick handling little rifle, I think the WSM could stay around. But with the competition it now has, I'm not as sure as I was 10 years ago.

12:54 So, if you go to a a gun shop and you stand at the ammo shelf and you gaze up and down it and think various thoughts, which I do on a regular basis, >> like, why do these cost so much? >> Oh, that's one of them. Yeah. You'll find still that the 300 Win Mag has a section on the shelf that might be wider than your wingspan of various loads. And you'll have two to four, maybe five 300 PRC's.

13:24 >> You'll have one or two or three of the 300 WSM. And usually, regrettably, there's no 300 H&H. >> Yeah. >> So, tell me why that one's your favorite. >> The 300 H&H. >> Yeah. Well, it's more nostalgia tradition and after you've used it and hand loaded for it and seen what it can really do, >> it's hanging right in there with the 300 Win Mag. And then that's good enough for anything and everything. All the people who say, "Well, the 306 is the most incredible balanced and versatile cartridge in the world, I can agree with that. But if you want a little more velocity, a little more horsepower, you have it with that 300 H&H, which is what set it apart back in the day when it came on board.

14:09 >> Yeah. >> Its competition was the 306. So that was considered to be a 306 on steroids. >> Yeah. So that cartridge when it came out, it was concurrent with the 270 Winchester. It's something we didn't really celebrate last year and we probably should have, but it was the 100th anniversary of the 300 H&H. >> Yeah. In 1934 or 35, a shooter named Ben Comfort won the thousand-y competition at Camp Perry with a 300 H&H >> and that just set in stone its legacy, right? Not only was it powerful, but it was accurate or could be accurate in a good rifle.

14:48 >> So, I have a a kind of a cool history with that myself. My old shooting mentor's favorite rifle was a pre64 Winchester pre-war supergrade in 300 H&H. >> Sweet. >> And of all his rifles, that was the one I always coveted the most. Beautiful piece of wood and so forth. He loaned that rifle to me and I at one point and I shot my first big bull elk, big 6x6 bullock with that rifle. had to give it back. But I ended up eventually getting a very simple uh pre64 Winchester that had been reworked, had some more work done on it because it wasn't ruining collector value at that time. And that rifle is incredibly accurate.

15:31 >> Mhm. >> Funny enough, it loves 220 grain roundnse bullets. >> What? >> Which is a real funny kind of coincidence because that's a classic bullet that may have been loaded in that early on. >> Yeah. Another friend gave me seven 300 H&H cases that were so old they were just marked 30 Magnum >> because I mean they used to call it the old super 30 or whatever, but lots of those rifles and ammunition back then was just 30 caliber magnum or 300 magnum.

16:01 >> Yeah. >> And those cases were still sound. I loaded them up. They shot good. And I took that rifle to Africa the year before the 300 PRC was announced. >> Mhm. along with the 300 PRC rifle and I hunted with the two of them side by side. So I had the first 30 caliber Magnum and the last 30 caliber Magnum using them both side by side in Africa. It's just a cool experience. What was maybe the most spectacular was both of them are shooting way under an inch, right? A rifle that was shooting a cartridge nearly 100 years old at the time and another one that hadn't even been introduced. super authoritative, great cartridges, just a lot of nostalgia built in there for me with that. What I really love about the 300 H&H is it's buttery smooth feeding.

16:50 >> It's got that long tapered case >> and in a good rifle, it's hard to tell when when a cartridge goes in the chamber. Sometimes you second guess, is my rifle empty? >> It feels like nothing happened when you close the bolt. >> Mhm. >> You're like, I think I didn't pick one up. You picked it up. Plus, because of that taper, it's a little slender up front, and you can often get four down in the the rifle magazine of certain models, >> so you get an extra round on tap over what you 300.

17:16 >> You know, I don't care about that stuff. I just take one. >> You're a single shot man. I know some of us need backup plans on occasion. >> Say, when you were shooting with these side by side in Africa, did you notice a significant advantage in shooting the 300 PRC? uh at distance. Yeah, especially since I was hunting with 220 grain roundnse bullets compared to 212 grain. >> Yeah, not even. You might as well have completely different cartridges.

17:46 >> But I do have a funny story. We were all siding in there at the, you know, checking our zero >> and there's a series of riders and hosts. I think there are about six of us. And somebody says, we're shooting at 200 yards. Somebody says, "Let's see who can shoot the best group with these new rifles." And I just kind of silently grinned and took out my old 364 rifle. I put three shots touching in a clover leaf at 200 yards with my vintage rifle and roundnse bullet.

18:16 >> I don't know if I could do it every time, >> but that one time I outshot all the modern rifles. Later though, just for fun, we're shooting at rocks across a canyon at 1100 yards and making first round hits on rocks that we could measure with our our MOA reticles as being, you know, roughly a minute and a half big or whatever. We're hitting these vital size targets. >> You're looking at 12 to 15 inch rock.

18:43 >> Yeah. >> And you're hitting it a,000 >> and 1100, 1100 J. >> They were GA precision rifles. really nice custom rifles and they should shoot that way. >> No, >> cool stuff. >> Yeah. >> But we're kind of getting off in the weeds and comparing the modern and the vintage, the classic. You mentioned the 300 6. You have a lot of history with that cartridge, don't you? >> Well, I think most hunters, shooters from back in the ' 50s, 60s,7s era, you know, that was just the standard 30.

19:11 Yeah. You know, if you were a real serious hunter, you might have a 300 Win Mag or the older guys might have an H&H, but the 3006 was old Mr. Dependable. >> Yeah. >> And as you said about the ammo selection for the 300 Win Mag. Well, it's even bigger for the 306. So, there was always ammunition around. We didn't pay that much attention. You either shot Remington or Fed or Federal was kind of in third place.

19:36 >> Remington and Winchester were the two big ones. and and we didn't say what kind of a bullet are you shooting in those days. It was just that you shooting a 180 grain or you shooting a 150 or something like that. >> So it was just so common everybody in his dog had one or at least knew somebody who had one and it probably worked with it. I was really a 270 man. I skipped over the 30.

19:56 >> You don't even own a 270 now. >> No, I got better options now. >> You just hurt a lot of feelings, bro. >> I know. No, it's still a great cartridge. And you know, honestly, if you did push me and said, "Look, you can either have a 270 or 30 on six," I probably would just stick with the 270. >> Would you? >> Well, with today's bullets, >> Yeah. especially if you go with that fast twist technology.

20:20 >> Yeah. If you go there, man, you really could do it. But even if I have to stick with a slow twist and 150 grain bullet at the upper end, the quality of the bullets. Now, when people think about bullets, they always think, "Well, I I want to shoot an elk or moose. I got to have a heavier bullet." Not anymore. You don't. you use the right bullet and have an accurate rifle, you can knock them down with a 270, 130 grain bullet as well as you could in the old days with 150.

20:44 >> Yeah. >> So, and I have found over the years that I'm taking moose and elk and even the bigger bears with the lighter bullets, smaller bullets and all the rest of them. So, if I were going moose hunting and somebody said, "You can use a 270 or a 306." Well, I've already used a 306, so I'll take the 270 >> just to do something different. >> Well, yeah. And plus, I have this complete faith in it given the bullets.

21:05 I just know them so well that I know they're going to do the job. Uh, >> so in your 306, >> do you have a favorite bullet weight? >> 165. >> Really? Okay. >> Yeah. Unless I'm shooting all copper bullets, >> which I usually am these days, you can get a 150 there to perform as well as a 165 or even a 180 in the traditional cup and cores. Mhm. >> But yeah, these days I rarely shoot the cup and cores. Even though I know they can do the job, especially on if you're careful broadside shot.

21:36 >> Sure. >> You don't hit any major muscle or bone. There's no reason those aren't going to work. >> For sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Personally, I'm partial to the 180s >> in a 300 six just because I grew up shooting them and doing real well with them. My brother and I made we didn't make a lot of wise decisions, but we made one wise decision in our mid- teens and we chipped in together and we bought a bulk box of 180 grain Remington corlocked 30 caliber bullets. There was 2,000 of them.

22:07 >> Oh my gosh. >> And I think it cost us >> I can't even remember, but it was something like 18 cents a bullet. >> So, you know, pretty pretty affordable. And we hand loaded those things for years and shot them out of everything and they work good. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Show us your 30 six. >> Okay. >> And for those just listening, tell us about it, too. >> Okay. Yeah. This looks a little different than your average 300 6 because it is. It's a custom. Uh I had uh a friend at Winchester who got the action. It was kind of a reject. Didn't quite measure up to standards, but I know him. I know a guy Mhm.

22:47 >> And uh I had met a man who was uh running the Fijian shop for beautiful guntocks. Fun. Fagan used to make all sorts of beautiful walnut guntocks. And this gentleman had uh started his own little gun stock making business. And he had a whole bunch of CL walnut out of California. >> And he said, "Ron, I'd like to build you something on one of these. You know, take a look at the blanks." And $250. I got this blank with all this incredible tiger striping on it.

23:18 >> Yeah, let's flip it around. I don't know what the side that I'm showing him looks like, but we'll show him this side with the cheek piece on it. >> At any rate, he wanted to showcase that and get some publicity. So, we did something for some magazines and he built that stock. And then I had uh Lex Webernick take that action, stick a little barrel on it, and I said, "Let's just go 30 out six because I can do anything and everything anytime I need to be a good piece to have around." And Donnie and his crew just did a great job on that stock and the check ring and everything else. Put a >> ebony 4-end tip on it and everything.

23:50 And it's just is a heck of a shooter. So this is my rifles inc stocked beautiful 300 6 and it's stainless. >> I thought, hey, as long as you're going with all this stuff, just go stainless and and add it to the wood and it gives it an unusual look. >> It's a striking rifle in so many ways. appearance, quality, the fact that it's classic plus cutting edge. >> I really like that. It shoots pretty well.

24:16 >> Yeah, the moose thinks so. >> I think I've taken a couple moose with it. Caribou. Um, caribou black bear probably. Mountain goats, deer. Yeah, lots of stuff. It's been around a while, >> man. I love the super grade type sling swivel studs and that shadow line cheek rest. >> Yep. >> This man had an eye for lines. Yes. >> Stock line. >> Yeah. >> It's gorgeous. >> Well, I've always thought the traditional Winchester stock had the lines that you want for a sporting arm.

24:48 If you're a hunter, >> you got a lot of different options on your stocks. But for the classic hunting rifle, I think that just >> they worked on it and they worked on it until they got every piece of the shape. You don't have that long drop anymore like you had back in the 30s on them. >> Yep. >> You know, they brought that up for more of a straight line. >> Yeah. Works pretty nicely. That's That's a rifle I I I may be guilty of coveting wrong. I'm going to have to go home and repent tonight. Okay. So, there are people sitting behind their audio device on the lawn mower or sitting in their basement watching YouTube right now, whatever it is, thinking, "But what about the 308? We haven't even mentioned it."

25:28 >> Oh, is there a 308? I thought that was the diameter of the bullet. >> Well, it is. The 308 was introduced in the early 1950s. Am I right? >> 52. >> And they the civilian market actually beat the military to the punch. >> Yep. >> But then the M military came out with a 762 by 51. >> Yeah. The NATO >> that's the NATO designation in the M14 rifle >> and kind of gave it that long-term stamp of longevity and survival.

25:58 >> Sure did. >> How much do you love the 308? Uh, everybody knows I don't love the 308, but it is I don't hate the 308. Come on. It's just a It's a short 300 6. So, it's like, look, why bother? >> Then they're going to say, well, you just told us you like the short 300. Why don't you like Good point. There's nothing wrong with a 308. It is a Goldilocks cartridge. It will do everything you need a 30 to do or anything to do. You can hunt anything in the world with that. It's just that if I'm going to a 30, I'm kind of liking the idea of that larger bullet, heavier bullet. 308's not really got the horsepower to push the heavier bullets.

26:41 I don't like to get much over a 165 in that. I prefer to have a 150 if I'm having to hunt with it for a little flatter trajectory, but then you're starting to give up your wind drift. Got a little more wind drift with it. You need more velocity than that 308 can give you. Doesn't mean it can't work or doesn't work. And plenty of people have shot it out to 600 yards in competitions and it's famous for being super accurate and all the rest of it.

27:06 >> Yeah. >> But I just think with all of the options we have, I'm either going to go really slow and hunt in the woods with the 3030 or I'm going to crank it up at least to 300 out six, but probably that 300 short mag >> or the 300 H&H or something up the upper end. What do you think about the old argument that the 308 is typically more accurate than the 30 offsets? >> Yeah, it really is when you look at your average rifle and the ammunition, but I can't say that it's because of the shape of the case. I just can't buy into that.

27:38 There are too many cases with real similar lines and shape and shoulder angles and all these other things that we try to come up with ideas of why it would shoot better. I always look at a cartridge case as a compartment for conveniently storing your gunpowder without getting it wet. Yes. >> With the primer already on the back so you don't have to worry about it falling off the nipple. >> Uh so it doesn't really matter all that much what the shape is. For accuracy, I just don't get it. Now, you can say, well, a shorter, fatter case is probably going to be more accurate because you've got a more efficient burn of the powder starting nearer to the center of the column rather than burning the back, having to push all that weight ahead of you until you get it ignited and all the rest of it. Little pieces like that. So, yes, you can maybe pick up >> a 0.01 or 0.02 02 improvement in precision shooting with the 308 because of its shape or something, but it doesn't apply to the hunting fields.

28:36 >> Okay. So, you think it's a a very finite small amount. >> It is fine. But why why you so often see your average rifle and load in 308 shoot better than one in 306? I think is because of that rifle and the ammo being built more precisely. >> Yeah. >> Tighter tolerances because it has a reputation for accuracy. So, I think the manufacturers just say, "Let's make this more accurate." >> Sure. I think you're 100% correct there.

29:02 And the 308, you know, ever since it was adopted as a sniper cartridge has kind of ridden that uh reputation. >> Yeah. >> With a lot of different precision rifles being built, a lot of different precision loads being built. Look around. You don't see very many match type rifles built and chambered in 306. At least not anymore. No. And the same thing for ammunition. But back in the day, let's say before 193435 when Ben Comfort won at Wimbledon Camp Perry with the the 300 H&H, >> the 3006 ruled.

29:37 >> Mhm. >> It won almost every year for two decades, three decades. >> That tells you it can be a very, very accurate cartridge. I'm kind of with you. I've shot one or two 300 sixes in my life that were just shockingly accurate out of all the rifles I've tested. Whereas I would say about 40% of the 308s I've tested, probably because of tighter t chamber tolerances, better ammunition available for it, and configured like a match rifle.

30:07 >> About 40 to 50% of the 308 shoot good. >> Yeah. >> The heavy bullet thing though, folks, is what really sets the two apart. If you're shooting 150 grain bullets and even 165s, that 100 ft per second difference is just not enough, as so many people will say, for a deer or elk to know the difference. >> Yeah. But when you need to shoot something like a 200 grain bullet or a 220 grain bullet because you're hunting everything from sika blacktails on Kodiak Island up through coastal brown bears on the peninsula, the 220 grain roundnse partition type bullet is a really really good choice.

30:47 Stick that in your throw weight and see how it does. It's going to bog down. You're not going to get useful velocities out of it. So that's kind of, you know, my two cents on the 308. I don't care for it because it's not as versatile for the western big game species. >> Yeah. >> And those are I love hunting those. >> Yeah. Yeah. It just doesn't have the reach as easily as the others. And the 30 six isn't exactly a winner in that category either, but it comes a lot closer. 100 ft per second doesn't sound like a lot, but when you add it up, you're picking up some more significant distance. And out in the west here, you kind of need that.

31:25 >> Yeah. >> But I think that's why the 300 Magnums have been so popular ever since. Well, the 300 H&H started it. >> Mhm. >> In 25, but once that 300 Win Mag came in, woof. >> Yeah. And the reason they did it, of course, is that Remington burnished its reputation big time in 1962 when they came out not just with the model 700 bolt-action rifle, which sold for quite a bit less than the Winchester, but they chambered it in this new cartridge called the 7mm Remington, which was the 264 Winchester Magnum, necked up to seven. Way more versatile, much heavier bullets that could be shot at it. That thing took off. Yes. as the all-around western big game rifle you could use on anything and everything >> and still might be the champion there.

32:11 >> Yeah, but Winchester had to counter >> and the next year they counted. What do you do in America to beat out a 7 millimeter? You go to the 30. >> That's right. You know what's funny too is if you survey a bunch of African phes between the two, they'll almost always pick the 30 caliber. >> Yep. Absolutely. >> Which tells you something. Those guys see two 300 animals taken per year. That's more than two or three Americans shooting deer are going to see in their entire lifetime put together, right? So, they have very valid opinions.

32:44 >> Now, I want to segue here a little bit because really what we're talking about are launching platforms. We've talked a little bit about bullet weight and mentioned some heavy for caliber expan controlled expansion types, but hit the high points if you would, Ron, of some of your favorite projectile types. The bullet itself. What are you gonna pick in a 30 caliber for versatile use across the spectrum of game? >> We're talking all 30s or 308 up in power.

33:15 >> Let's let's call it that medium to potent range. 300 6 and the 300 magnums. >> Yeah, as I mentioned earlier in 300 6, I think you're optimal at 165. You can certainly do well with the 180s, >> but if you want to, I think the perfect balance of energy, flat trajectory, wind deflection, and all the rest of it, 165 is a way to go there. Step up to the Magnums, and it could be the H&H or the wind mag, and then on up, 180 is a good average, good starting point. But then if you want to do something special, let's say you want to shoot a big bear and you expect him to be close, you're starting to talk about your 200 to 220 grains, even that round nose you were shooting, that would be just fine on a tight cover black bear or moose.

33:59 >> Um, and then if you want to specialize in long shooting, minimizing your wind deflection, all the rest, you've got to go to the new high BC bullets. Mhm. >> So any 200, 210, 22, >> even 230. Some of these things will handle that quite nicely. >> Um, and yeah, you're doing specialized work, so you need a specialized bullet. >> Do a little name dropping for us. Start back with the 165s and say, I would choose this type of bullet by such and such or >> Yeah. What?

34:31 >> Yeah. In a lead core bullet, I really like the Acubonds. >> Okay. It's a bonded bullet with good BC shape without being too crazy long because it's not all that heavy in it. You get a 180 in there. I think you're pretty much ready to handle anything. As you know, I'm a copper bullet nut these days and there are getting to be so many great copper bullets. I always loved the Barnes and had excellent luck with them.

34:54 Still a great bullet. I probably always will be. I got to shooting hammer bullets a few years ago and I just love those. uh this new interesting groove shape that they have with the double radius and all, you know, it's almost like a bore rider on three places. So, it reduces the copper fouling. It reduces how much friction is touching the bore >> and they're just insanely accurate. >> And I can get about 100 ft per second more velocity out of any cartridge using those bullets over the others. Is it a more slippery bullet? I don't think so.

35:26 I think it's that minimal contact with the bore maybe. >> Sure. But for whatever reason, those are working out really well. Those are designed to have their tip pedals break off. >> Sort of mimicking what you would get with a tradition. Yeah. The hammers. And that sort of mimics what you would get with a traditional bullet when you've got the shrapnel flying off from that bullet so often. But you don't lose as much weight. The the pedals are not that big on most of their bullets. So you've got small pieces flying out to maybe cut a vital organ that you might not otherwise hit. while the shank remains in one piece and drives forward and usually through and out.

36:02 >> Jagged nose on it. >> Yeah, a little bit jagged from where they broke off and whatever. And I question them at first thinking, is that going to do any good at that point once you've lost those pedals? But the pedals have done their traditional ripping and tearing as that bullet spiraling through the animal in a fraction of a second >> and then they go off to do their work somewhere else and the other bullet continues forward and just seems to work because I've used it in a 300 H&H and a 375 H&H in Africa and all sorts of stuff and had superb results. 270 grain bullet in a 375 H&H on Buffalo. I think we've got one, two, three, four Buffalo now >> and lose anybody. Most we required were three shots from the 335. One was a one shot kill, one was a one-shot kill, one was a three shot, and I'm losing track now of the other ones, but you know, good proof sure for me. Um and then with the 300 gosh I used some 125 grain hammers in that thing which seemed like wow >> really that light.

37:05 >> Yeah that light and devastating on nala waterbuck animals of that size all the way down to reedbuck which are pretty small like pong horn size or smaller. Mhm. >> So, they just seem to work on everything. And pick a pick a copper bullet these days, whether that it has huge pedals at stay but really spread wide or if they're designed to break off or whatever, they just seem to work. As long as you understand them and where to put them and how they function, they work really, really well. Um, I know you really like that terminal ascent bullet, which is sort of the >> one of the ultimates as far as a call it a hind 57 bullet where you take the best of all worlds, you know, Yeah. There you go. So, you got a little bit of lead combined with the bonding combined with the uh locked in uh the big shank in the back is going to maintain its weight all the way. Uh it beautiful design as far as optimal design for wind resistance.

38:09 >> Mhm. >> It's just going to plain old work. But now you've been talking about this. I saw it last year at the Shot Show. >> Talked to the gentleman over at Swift Bullets >> and I've been shooting A-frames and Sorakos for a long, long time. And he was showing me a new bullet he's coming out with that looked at first to me like a Sorraco, but there are some differences. >> Yeah. And uh what's he calling that Linda? Zephr.

38:33 >> Zephyr. Yeah. Zephr. I actually just got back from New Zealand and and had the opportunity to take the first animal ever shot with that bullet. It was a 7mm version because that's what they're coming out with first. They're going to have 30s and 65s and 25s and 22s and 270s. >> All of the different bases will be covered. I can't wait to try the 30s in the 7mm diameter. What impressed me was that these these Zephyr bullets are a lot like the terminal ascent in terms of they're very aerodynamic. They're very tough, so you can shoot something up close or far away. Up close, they're not going to blow up far away, they still expand and create a beautiful mushroom.

39:20 But the the one downside, still love the terminal sense, but I often had to work to get good accuracy out of them. I'm not sure if it was the profile or the nickel plating or whatever it was, but I found these new Zephers want to shoot well. >> And that is a very endearing characteristic. >> Cooperative bullet. >> Yeah. So, pretty cool. Uh, the other thing that I noticed was my daughter and I shot, what was it, 10 different animals with 130 grain swift soracos out of my 65 x 55. They're going pretty fast. They're doing a,50 ft per second.

40:00 >> How many? >> 3,50 ft per second. Sorry, I misspoke there. And it just seemed to turn the lights out >> on game. It was really, really impressive, more so than some others I've I've used in the past. And uh Bill Hbert at Swift has he explained once to me that the Swift bullets are made to create a flat face on their mushroom, not a rounded do front. And he said >> that creates more hydronamic displacement which in turn causes more tissue damage around it without inhibiting penetration than a more than a bullet that gets domed front.

40:40 >> Yeah. >> And I mean I'm not an engineer. I couldn't swear that's what's happening. But something is happening where these animals are just going flat on their chin often without a quiver when you hit them with that bullet. You know, that's real similar to what the hammer boys were trying to do with that bullet. They want those things to break off and then you've got a flat nose on it, almost like a flat point for penetration an elephant hunter would want in a bullet.

41:05 >> And they they claim the same thing that I didn't quite understand it or buy into it either, but it it seemed like if you don't sweep around and get that ball shape on the expanded nose of your bullet, it's more devastating as far as wounding. Yeah, there's a lot of nuances that I think we're still learning about in terms of bullet terminal performance and I love it. I've been a student of expanded bullets since I was a little kid digging them out of the sand, you know, with my 22. So, fascinating time to be a hunter and a rifleman.

41:41 I got to just share a couple of thoughts myself on these cartridges. But if I had to pick just one 30 caliber and say the average American needs this one, >> I'd say a 306. >> Okay, >> that's just my take on versatility, ammo availability, rifle availability, and capability across a broad spectrum. You can go to Alaska with your 306 and not feel underguned at all. Even on a big brown bear, you choose the right bullet and you're little cautious about your shot presentations, you'll be fine.

42:16 You'll kill it with that 300 six. >> And of course, for whitetails, it's fantastic. It's just a light switch for them. My favorite, just the one that's stuck in my heart, is that 300 H&H for the reasons we talked about. Right. >> Okay. But I have to say, if I was making an entirely objective choice of the best designed 30 caliber hunting cartridge ever designed, I'd have to pick that 300 PRC.

42:48 >> The 300 PRC. >> Yeah. >> The fully modern. >> It's not crazy overboard. Up here on this board, for those watching, we've got some real rockets. There's a 3378. As far as I know, that's the most potent of all the 30 calibers. That was Sammy approved. >> Probably the fastest. This >> 300 rum might come close. You think? >> Yep. 300 rum is more popular and is a fantastic elk cartridge, but it's still almost too much of a good thing. Lots of recoil, lots of powder being burned. And if you put it right beside a 300 PRC, you can see it was designed according to the old technology where they push the mouth of the case as far forward as possible so they can push the shoulder forward and get capacity, burn more powder, get more speed. That was the method for a half a century, right?

43:42 >> Whereas the 300 PRC, the mouth of the case is pulled back, the shoulders pulled back, and it's given that real long head height. For those of you watching here, you can see there's a long old chunk of sleek aerodynamic bullets sticking out of that PRC. >> That makes a huge difference. Wind bucking ability and and velocity and energy retention. >> I agree. The the problem with convincing a lot of shooters, >> they don't quite get it. Uh I don't know if it's just because they already have a bias for the old cartridges and they're sick of hearing about the new stuff.

44:15 They don't think we need it and all the rest of it. That's fine. Yeah, >> nothing wrong with the old ones, but I think this is the the the heart of it, the crux of the whole thing is that this is the latest design, an engineering design that maximizes performance by paying more attention to the bullet >> that's going to be more >> efficient. >> Y >> instead of just the cartridge, instead of trying to drive an inefficient bullet faster and faster, why not back off on your horsepower a little bit and get a bullet that's more like a built like a race car instead of a Mac truck? will use less energy but get equal or usually better downrange performance because you're not wasting that bullet's kinetic energy trying to push air out of your way.

44:59 >> Yeah. My big introduction at extreme range with the 300 PRC came at the FTW shooting ranch. We shot targets at 2400 yards, steel life-size torso targets, and I was making pretty consistent hits with that. That is a long long way off. It's pushing close to a mile and a half. >> And I I knew I wouldn't be doing that with any of the other 300s I'd ever used. >> Right. >> Now, I want to just address a certain I guess maybe sentimental characteristic with a lot of our listeners and viewers where they love things like the 300 Win Mag, the 300 Weatherbe, the 300 H&H like me, right? because of their history with them and their proven they do the tasks they ask them to do.

45:47 >> Mh. >> And just to draw kind of a parallel, you know, I I grew up a lot of my formative years, I was driving a 93 uh Dodge Cumins truck, manual transmission, the old original 12 valve motor is a fantastic truck. Currently, I'm driving a 2018 Dodge with a really uh good modernized Cumins engine in it. And there is no comparison when it comes to performance, right? The modern truck absolutely outperforms the old truck. It rides better. It pulls better. It gets better fuel mileage. Everything doesn't mean I don't love that old truck.

46:30 I would I don't have that old truck anymore. I would I would literally pull out teeth with my Leatherman and give them to you if you could give me that truck. >> Really? >> Yeah. I've got some bad teeth. Why? >> Yeah. >> There's just something about it. In my formative years when doing things such as everything from pulling a big horse trailer full of, you know, stock trailer full of cattle over a big mountain range >> and having everything I needed up those steep slopes, >> right down to looking awfully good when I pulled up at the high school rodeo in my truck.

47:06 >> I still get chills thinking about it. Right. That truck meant so much to me and it did everything. >> I never dreamed that you were a truck guy to that degree. I'm really not, but there are a few that are pretty meaningful to me. Right. So, to me, that truck is like that 300 H&H. >> So, essentially, you're saying the cartridge and the truck take you back to your youth. >> Yeah, they make me feel powerful, Rowan, and cool again. But let's get back to these cartridges because we've also got the 300 Weatherbe, which for a long time was my favorite cartridge. It just gives a little more than the others without being so big it borders on impractical like that 3378.

47:49 And then of course we have the one they call the king, the 300 Winchester Magnum. I have a handful of 30 caliber Magnum rifles. And if I had to choose one out of that safe to walk away with for the rest of my life right now, it would be a 300 Win Mag. Not because of the cartridge, it's because of the rifle itself and some memories I've built with it. It was uh a Kimber that I had rebarreled. The stock reworked, shaped, and refinished. The action is colorcase hardened. The rings are color case hard.

48:20 >> Nice. >> I shot my biggest kudu bull with it. I shot my 402 inch DIY public land bull elk with it. >> That rifle and I have built some memories, right? >> Yeah. >> So, folks, I mean, it's really hard to pick. It's like saying pick your favorite child, right? It just hurts your core to do that. But if I had to talk to our future generations and say, "Which one of these are you going to be best off with in 20 years?" Take that 300 PRC because it's the best engineered. And it does provide the best performance with today's modern projectiles. You can't argue with data.

48:57 Now, for use inside 300 yards, is it going to be discernably better at killing stuff? Probably not. But if you have to take that 450 yard shot in a bit of wind in a challenging situation, yeah, it might. So, you brought a couple rifles to show off. Ron, I got to show you this one. This one is my 300 PRC and possibly the finest 30 caliber mountain rifle I've ever used. >> Yeah, it barrel is pretty fat.

49:28 >> Oh, it's one of those carbon fiber barrels. You still like those things, don't you? >> That's a Proof Research barrel, but more. It's a Proof Research rifle. I like the stock. Nice and slim in the grip here. Not too tight of a grip. >> Little more open. Accommodating different hand sizes pretty nicely. >> Yeah, I could see where this would work for you. A little bit muzzle heavy, but helps you hang on target. >> Yep. I actually like a bit of more weight out front. personally probably stems from my offhand competitive shooting days, but it helps me shoot with stability. It also helps me if I ever have to take a running shot on a wounded animal or something for a follow-up shot. It helps me swing through and not stop when I shoot. Yeah, >> carbon fiber. Wonderful stock.

50:15 >> Yeah, I like the texture on that stock. >> You don't even need checkering because there's enough texture in the paint scheme itself. They put sand in there or what? I don't know what they've done, but it works. Yeah, you sure sure can feel it in your hands really stick to it, but it's not raspy. It doesn't tear or cut or anything. >> Nicely done. >> So, this rifle with that scope, everything as you see right now weighs 7 lb 6 oz.

50:38 >> Pretty nice. Pretty nice. >> It's under that 7 12 lb weight that Jack O' Conor used to say is just right for carrying up the mountain. And yet my hand load is pushing 208 grain Barnes LRX bullets at it's north of 3,000 feet per second. 3,30 or something. >> That'll do. >> 208 grain bullet. >> North of 3,000 feet per second. BC's in the mid600s. That thing carries a lot of authority. >> Yeah, you can believe it.

51:08 >> It also kicks a lot. >> Yeah. >> But that's okay. I don't shoot it recreationally, you know, 200 rounds on a weekend. It's a purpose-built rifle. >> I like the scope you picked. This is that three and a half to 18 >> from Sarovski. >> Yep. >> That I put that on my seven millimeter >> uh Remington Magnum built by Bordon Bumps. Jim Bordon. >> Oh yeah. >> Jim Bordon built it. He and I hashed it over and we were having essentially this conversation about a perfect rifle for everything kind of deal. And it was funny. I thought, I don't want to sound like a dummy in front of this guy because he really knows his stuff. He's won all sorts of shooting competitions and he's a gun maker and the rest of it, but I said, I don't know, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I think the seven rim mag with a 24in barrel and blah blah blah would be the kind of the ultimate. I think it could do everything the 300 Win Mag does with today's bullets, etc. And he said, "I think you're right.

52:04 >> That's what I would build myself." I said, "Well, let's make one." >> Cool. >> Then he said, "Well, what kind of scope you want to put on it?" And I said, I kind of think that I don't want to go too big, but I still have the ability to really reach out there with this thing. So, I think a little more magnification than I usually use might be smart, but I don't want a heavy scope. But I noticed that that Z, it was a Z5 or Z3 Z5 3 and 12 to 18 by 44. That's a nice balance.

52:29 You don't get that big objective lens that adds so much weight to a scope and I think that would be just fine. He says that's my favorite, too. great minds and all. >> Oh my gosh, we were both in love with each other at that point. >> That's pretty funny. I put this one on because I was setting this rifle up to go to New Zealand in 2020 and then COVID hit three weeks before my airplane ticket.

52:51 >> Dang. >> Yeah. But it was all set up, had the load developed, ready to go. And I wanted it light. I wanted that scope mounted nice and low. You can see I've actually machined down the back of that rail so I can get the objective lens right down. piece of toilet paper through there. >> Yeah. And it's just fantastic. I I've got a custom >> I see that >> turret in yards on there. So, I can just range and shoot to 600 yards.

53:20 >> What elevation did you build that on? >> Uh it was for New Zealand. So, I think that one's about 3500 ft because we're going to be in the Alps hunting tar and shammy for that trip. Never >> got transpired. But so here at home where I have closer to like 6 7 8 9,000 ft, it it would be a little off. I probably need to get another one. But >> yeah, >> anyway, uh just a fine fine modern rifle that really performs.

53:47 >> So you think you could uh slam some steel over here at 600 to,000 yards with that? >> 600 yards. I'd be very very confident with it. It's not set up for a,000. It's a lightweight rifle with substantial recoil, right? It's made for hunting. >> And that turret won't dial to a thousand. >> I max out at about 700 yards with this. >> Max out of seven. >> And I don't want to shoot at game past >> six maximum. I'd like them to be inside 450.

54:17 >> Okay. I was going to invite you to a little shooting challenge here, but >> are there retic there aren't reticle lines in there, are there? >> If you had some reticle lines in there, you could stretch it out to a thousand easily. Yeah. Yeah. >> I've got a 7mm PRC I'll bring back and then we'll go try it because you've got a new thousand yard target out here on your farm. >> Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Betsy inaugurated it the other day. She took the 22 Creedmore, >> a homebuilt job by Landon.

54:44 >> Nice. >> Our favorite gunsmith. And he said, "Betsy, you need to shoot this new target. Here you go." She said, "What? I can't even see it." >> Took quite a while to get her to find the darn thing, >> but then she shot it. >> You shot it? Yeah. didn't get it on the first shot, but we were kind of guesstimating >> Yeah. >> everything. And once we finally got all the drops and wind deflection figured out and stuff, she hit it >> nice. This one, of course, just a 600.

55:08 I've got it validated. I was ringing steel pretty reliably. I broke some steel targets off their stands, hitting them with that big bullet going pretty fast. Yeah. >> And which bullet was it again? >> 208 grain Barnes LRX. >> Wow. That's got to be a long bullet. >> It's long. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. This rifle will shoot the 212 ELDX, the 220 ELDX, the 225 ELD match. >> You say it was one and eight twist. >> No, this one's one and nine. So, I have not run >> anything heavier than the 230 grain Hornady AXes and it shoots great. I I actually did try the 250 AXes and they they were showing signs of >> not being quite stable, like two inch groups at 100 yards. Not worth messing with it. No. Besides, they kicked.

55:55 >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that looks like it would work. >> Yeah, >> you just need to find an animal to chase with it. >> Or a half a dozen. Yeah, >> I think this would be a lot of fun on feral goats in New Zealand. So, maybe I do need to make a point of taking it there. That's what it was built for. >> Yeah, I think you should. And I think you're going to need help on that trip.

56:15 So, >> yes, let's make a plan. and we're going to >> lead a group of astute hunters to Kiwi country, the land of the long white cloud. >> Yeah, I've got several folks who are interested in it. So, let's put something together. It'll be a trip >> with Ron and Joseph. That's the downside. You'll have to put up with us. >> You suffer, but it'll be worth it. >> And we'll do all the dirty work and lining up the outfitters and the lodging and all the fun stuff.

56:40 >> And the cool thing is you don't have to buy expensive tags over there, >> right? And you don't have to shoot one and be done because they're trying to clear them out a little bit. So there's a lot more action going on. Is it true that they have a year round hunting season? >> Yeah. >> So you can go over there and hunt red stag the way you hunt coyotes here. Huh. >> Yeah. There are market hunters over there that shoot three or 400 females a year.

57:02 >> Wow. >> For the market and they make a living doing it. >> There guys that actually burn out barrels every couple years because of the amount of >> I could see some 18 year olds. What am I going to do after graduation? Damn. move to New Zealand, >> right? Um, on that note, I got a a question I want to run by you. Tell me what you think of this idea. It's something that I'd visited with uh our outfitter there on the northern tip of the South Island in New Zealand about potentially doing an educational course over there where we take people and we probably go in July towards the end of their fall, right, is when their bookings start to taper off so we could get a good deal.

57:46 >> Oh, okay. So, we take people for the least amount we could and we spend a week uh teaching hunting methods and shooting methods and employing them in the field, maybe 8 to 12 students. And while you're there, you go out and the first thing you'd hunt is a feral goat, right? Low pressure. >> Get as close as you need to and make a kill. This could be fun for anybody, but especially for hunters who are really trying to learn the ropes. Next thing you go out and you'd shoot a red deer hind and you process the whole thing.

58:19 Got it? You learning the whole time, right? So now that you've got two substantial harvests under your belt, then you could go and shoot a red stag. Probably not a giant estate stag, but a good solid red stag in New Zealand and have that hunting experience. Folks, after I get Ron's uh feedback on this, I'd love to hear from you, too. If this is something you'd be interested in, please send me an email at uh just the podcast email address, which is backcountryingpodcast@gmail.com.

58:53 What do you think? You think that sort of thing would have some value to it? >> Well, when when I first heard it, I thought, who's going to spend all that time and money going all the way to New Zealand just to learn to shoot? We got plenty of mountains around here. >> But when you start to throw in you can shoot a stag, you can shoot a goat, you can shoot a, they've got options. a tar possibility.

59:11 >> Possibly. We'd have to travel to a different part of the island to get into those. But I mean, if people wanted to get serious, you could shoot deer and shammy >> potentially. >> And you might be able to shoot more fereral goats. You could shoot an Ara power ram, which are kind of a cool underrated species over there. But the the key would be for for people to just go shoot multiple species with one pinnacle species, a nice red stag.

59:38 >> Yeah. >> For a low cost, lots of time learning and practicing and actually, >> you know, taking shots on live game in the field, which is something that's getting harder and harder to find here in the States. >> Yeah. And if you could tack on to that a little bit of touring, Betsy and I did that several years ago. We were over hunting with John Skur and >> and we uh rented a car and just drove around and saw all the fancy sites, went over the top to the rainforest, Milford Sound, >> beautiful, beautiful areas over there.

60:06 So, yeah, I could see a lot of folks saying, "I've always wanted to see New Zealand, and if I could do some shooting and hunting at the same time, I think it could work." Let us know, folks. I'd be interested in your feedback. All right. Are there any cartridges here that we've given short shift to, Ron? When I see the 3030, we've talked about that. There's the 308, 300 6, 300 WSM, the 300 H&H. >> But hey, let's throw the Canadians a bone here.

60:32 >> Let's do it. >> Throw British. >> I've got two rimmed cartridges here because >> the Brits will really get their knickers in a twist if we don't kind of include that 311 bullet diameter. The 303 British, it's nominally a 30 caliber cartridge. And then we got the 3040 Craig. I can't even tell which is which without looking at the head stamp. So, this is the 303 British for those of you watching. This one is the 3040 Craig.

61:02 What do you think of that 3040? >> You know what's amazing about the 303 for me? I always just really ignore it. But golly, it was, you know, involved in the boar wars over in South Africa and it was up against the 757 Mouser that the Bors had in some mouser rifles, but the Brits did pretty darn well. There were more of them anyway, I think, uh, with their 303. But to think that it goes that far back into the 1890s.

61:30 >> Um, and then it was used clear up through World War I and into World War II. I think they were still shooting it in World War II and they had it in some machine guns. So, it's definitely well proven, but when you look at it and you compare it to the 3040 Craig, you think, why did the US version >> fall on its face so so quickly? >> Yeah. And I think it's because we came up against the 757 >> and wanted something better >> in Cuba against the Spaniards and we wanted something better. So we kind of skipped right over it and jumped to that 306. You know, a note that uh occurred to me while you're talking about that during the Boore war, the Brits were fighting the 7x57 with the 303 and almost within a few years, we were fighting >> the 7x57 with the 3040 CR.

62:19 >> That's a good point. >> That's kind of a cool side note. >> Yeah. >> Which would you pick right now? >> Well, I I have to go with the 303. It's it's lasted a lot longer and must be for a darn good reason. Mhm. >> And the uh the Australians use it a lot over there for their culling work >> and they've necked it up and down and sideways similar to what we've done with the 308.

62:39 >> So you've got 22 caliber versions of it and 24s and 25s and 27s and I'm sure 26s, you know, wildcatterers, they're going to make everything in anything. >> It's just that it has that rimmed case and that's these days with boltaction rifles. It's always a little bit problematic for feeding and such. >> Yeah. >> But obviously they've worked it out. How many Nfields have been out shooting them in Canada and they people love it for moose and >> in fact a lot of polar bears have been shot with 303 British because that's what the mounties or the local I wanted to say magistrate whoever authorities were issued was a 303 British.

63:14 >> Yeah. Yep. >> Yeah. >> Any cartridge that is that common and if the military has it a lot of its reputation gets built on that. If people say well it's like the 308. Well the 308 was such a bad cartridge. Why did the military have it? Well, chicken and egg argument here, guys. Which came first? >> Yeah. >> When you've got a cartridge that's that abundant and been used for so long, people assume it must be the greatest in the world. Not necessarily. It's just really common. It could certainly do the job.

63:43 >> And cartridges with weaknesses don't tend to become common. >> Yeah. >> Kind of like what may have happened with that 30 40 >> Craig. You bet. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There are some fun vintage rifles chambered for that. I like the cartridge for its history, but I don't think I would choose it intentionally to go with. >> If I had to use it, I could make it work. Anybody could, you know, it shoots a certain weight bullet at a certain velocity. We all know that stuff.

64:07 >> Sure. >> The 3030 can kill stuff. It's not much faster than the 3030. >> No. Shoots a little heavier bullet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Initially, it was a 220 grain round nose, which is a big part of why it fell flat. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's why the 308 or the 303 became the 306. They use the same bullets. >> Thinking, well, we've got the bullets. They shoot them. And then they realize it's still not going fast enough.

64:32 >> I have a a fun rifle to come shoot with you soon. I've just traded my way into an original Winchester 1895 chambered in 303. >> Really? It runs 300 six cartridges through the chamber. >> Yeah. My friend is shipping it to me right now to my FFL. So, I'm going to load some 220 grain round noses and go shoot stuff with it. >> Yeah, let's see how that thing performed. Let's do a video on that.

65:00 >> Let's do it. >> So, folks, we would love to hear your stories about your favorite 30 caliber cartridges. Again, write into backcountry huntingodcast@gmail.com. Better yet, uh, join us on Patreon where you get access to all of our bonus material and where I really focus on and prioritize answering messages on a daily basis. Unless I'm hunting, then I have better things to do. >> Imagine that. >> Uh, the other thing, if you're watching this on YouTube, please hit us with your feedback on these cartridges, your favorites, and any great stories you have of using them in the field. Mr.

65:37 Ron, it's always such a pleasure to uh record with you. Thanks again for letting us use your fantastic studio here and record a podcast for my show. We really appreciate that. >> Oh, it's always fun to have you over, Joseph. >> Yeah, you're one of our podcast favorite guests, so I feel a little bit selfish in uh exploiting you. >> Well, no, I feel honored to be exploited. >> Well, thank you, Ron. Folks listening, thanks for tuning in here with my very good friend Ron Spmer. I'm Joseph von Benedict and I'll see you in the back country.