# LIVE Success Without School: Learning in the Real World **Creator:** The Reason We Learn **Platform:** youtube **Duration:** 1h 9m **Source:** https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k ## Summary In this episode of "Success Without School," hosts Hannah and Deb discuss how parents can help their children discover their interests and passions outside traditional schooling. They emphasize the importance of real-world experiences, open dialogue, and allowing children to explore various activities without pressure, fostering a sense of agency and self-awareness. - The hosts explore the challenges parents face when their children struggle to find interests or passions. - They advocate for real-world learning experiences rather than traditional academic settings. - Open dialogue and asking questions without an agenda are crucial for understanding children's interests. - Encouraging action-oriented activities can help children discover their passions. - Parents should model curiosity and flexibility, allowing children to explore various paths. - Emphasizing the importance of collecting data on personal preferences can guide future decisions. - The conversation highlights the value of building a supportive, long-term relationship with children regarding their interests. - Real-world experiences, such as jobs or hobbies, can provide valuable life lessons and insights into personal preferences. ## Transcript [[0:08]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=8s) [Music] so [Music] [Music] [[0:39]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=39s) hello hannah hello deb how are you doing today i'm good how are you good it looks like you have better weather than i've got we've got thunderstorms then again i like thunderstorms so yeah this is a it's the same weather that happens every day in socal it's like 80 degrees and breezy and sunny and zero humidity it's very nice yeah but all right so welcome to everyone joining us for our second episode of success without school if you're new here [[1:11]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=71s) to the channel please consider liking sharing and subscribing please subscribing so you can be notified when we make new content if you're new to this show success without school is about succeeding outside the system learning growing getting an education without schooling i know it sounds kind of foreign as a concept but we meet here weekly to talk about ways to think outside that box outside that paradigm at all ages [[1:43]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=103s) uh last week we heard from hannah about her own personal story as a person homeschooled all the way through and so if you haven't seen that episode i highly recommend it you can go back and get to know my co-host um today we thought we'd talk a little bit about something that comes up i get asked this a lot maybe you do too okay so if i home school or maybe even they're not homeschooling maybe their [[2:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=126s) parents have kids in school how do i help my kid find an interest how do i figure out what their passions are you talk about like in the last episode you talked about oh and you're free to pursue your passions and interests and there'll be parents out there in the audience going uh what if they don't have one what if they can't find one what should i do what should i not do and then i would like to tie it to the what i see [[2:31]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=151s) or the benefits of learning in in the real world because we talked about that homeschooling is not at your kitchen table all day but what are the benefits of learning in the real world with solving that problem so that's kind of the the topic we're talking about today are all these different elements of helping your kid find out what they what they want to learn about outside the typical academic subjects so let's let's hit it what would you answer [[2:56]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=176s) how would you answer that if a parent came to you and said my kid is struggling to find an interest there's just nothing that really floats their boat or they kind of have an interest but like how do we turn that into something yeah i'm actually really curious you said that this is something that you get asked quite a bit do you have an answer that you send people when they email you with that i'm so curious i have a lot of [[3:15]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=195s) thoughts on this but i'm so curious what you say well first of all i empathize with them because i have three teenagers and i get that from them so um you know one has had a defined interest like her whole life but it's one of those interests where she doesn't get to really do a lot with it it's you know animal science and animals so i mean she's had opportunities to do things with it but not as much as she would like okay so [[3:40]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=220s) it's it's a little easier to deal with that like here study this or let's look at that or go to the raptor center whatever um with my eldest though it's been i mean there are interests but they're things like i'm really fascinated by serial killers and true crime you're like awesome i mean like no i mean that you know there are people interested in that and so for a while she was thinking maybe i want to do csi but i don't want to be a [[4:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=242s) cop and you know i don't know how that that's an interest but i don't know if it's something i want to like delve into and as a parent i'm going i'm not sure i want you to you know so you're you know you're kind of like that and then my youngest it's more like i like playing video games and chatting with my friends but other than that leave me alone i don't really you know much more typical to what the [[4:24]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=264s) parents are saying to me like they don't even have a passion that's not even totally appropriate you're like serial killers are so fascinating abnormal psychology and it's look there are a lot of people out there who like true crime this is not it's not like she's so unusual but when it with my youngest though i have to admit i tell parents i empathize i i struggle with this and so i'm asking you not just as your co-host [[4:47]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=287s) [Laughter] as a parent [Music] because it's hard i don't know i honestly say i usually ask questions like what have you tried what did they like when they were little k like when they're real small and less inhibited perhaps did you notice anything they gravitated towards what are you personally interested in can you bring that you know i i think do things like that but yeah i like i agree with the question asking as an introduction to any conversation about [[5:18]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=318s) this because i don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer if there was a formula people wouldn't have to ask this question because it would be super simple um but it varies so much from kid to ked and i think there's you know kids have such a broad range of interests but they also have such a broad range of reasons why they can't tap into those interests some of them like like you alluded to some of them were really passionate about [[5:43]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=343s) something at one point in time and then kind of had it smothered by school um or by other life circumstances they had an experience where somebody got a little too gung-ho about their interest and they're like we're going to turn this into this whole complicated thing that stopped all the joy out of it and then they didn't want to do that anymore so it really is it has to start with dialogue because um it's just there there isn't one exact [[6:10]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=370s) answer for every child um and i think the dialogue side we can delve into this more later too because i think this is a really important piece of this because there are good ways and bad ways to dialogue with your kids too um and dialogue legitimately means having a conversation not having a conversation with an agenda because then you're not gonna get like your kid can feel it you're not gonna get anywhere if you're talking to them [[6:32]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=392s) about their interests there's a really great newsletter called austin scholar that's written by a teenager it's it's parenting advice for parents of teenagers from the teen's perspective she writes on sub stack it's just austin scholar dot sub stack dot com it's amazing um i gotta check this out every single week she writes um in an issue where she talks about something that's either relevant to her life or to her friend's life or [[7:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=422s) something going on at school she's in a um an alternative school in austin called alpha school so she's like going through a non-traditional model to begin with and then she's talking about all of her experiences she did a whole series in may about how to talk about mental health with your teens um and she's done a bunch about like how to she did one a couple weeks ago about like summer projects and how to talk to [[7:23]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=443s) your kids about their interests and that's one of the things she talked about is the importance of not having like not just telling your kid hey i think you should do this but like having a conversation where you're actually having a conversation and you're listening um and that's important for us too when we're answering questions from parents about what to do with your kids like well we need information first so we know what to do um [[7:46]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=466s) i really like to take an action-based approach for kids because i think it's really hard sometimes to theoretically determine what you're interested in what you want to do and action tends to be get more action like it's a momentum thing like once you're doing things you tend to do more things so like if i had a kid or was working coaching a kid or working with a parent who had a kid who was really interested in serial killers i might try to [[8:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=493s) translate that into action in some way that might start to like let her explore different avenues that she may or may not be interested in and obviously this is much easier said than done because you have to sell her on it but like what if she um i don't know started a blog where she was reviewing serial killer documentaries and she like that's a fun way for her to try writing because she's writing about something she's passionate about but she also like [[8:38]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=518s) you can sell her on the premise of this because hey if you start a blog and like maybe a twitter account where you're sharing some of these things maybe you'll meet other people who are really interested in serial killers and you can have some interesting conversations yeah it's true and that's like an avenue for her to try something that's like a little bit broader in application like she may discover that she loves writing and that that's a really cool thing that [[9:01]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=541s) she can apply to other interests too um maybe she discovered that like journalism is something she's interested or some other form of writing maybe she could start like you're a podcaster you already know all about podcasting maybe she could start a serial killer podcast um which could also be a fun way for her to again like explore these interests but in a way that's more action-based um if she really thinks she wants to get into something crime related but she [[9:27]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=567s) doesn't think that like being a detective is exactly it like maybe you should know there's a there's a newspaper where she could intern with their crime department or whatever like you know somebody who's covering this stuff already and she can go try it in the real world i think a lot of kids feel and i remember this when i was in high school and then i got to watch my sister go through the same thing when she graduated from high [[9:50]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=590s) school when she was in high school a few years after me and saw it from a different angle like it's really hard when you're a teenager especially like kids in general but especially teens to bridge that gap between like i'm not an adult yet i can't actually do anything everything's just theoretical to being somebody who's an active participant in the world and not just right by it and so like that that's a really tough hurdle to get over and i feel like once [[10:18]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=618s) kids start taking action a lot of that apathy starts to fade away because the whole way they're looking at the world is shifting instead of everything just being like eh that doesn't really sound fun that doesn't really sound interesting either they're actually doing stuff and they want to do more stuff because the momentum is moving them in that direction same with the video games thing like um is there again like blogging about video games writing video game reviews getting [[10:45]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=645s) on some type of site that's like doing game reviews and seeing if she can create some kind of opportunity for herself maybe at a monetary component like can she can she's like sell reviews to somebody could she create some type of community that's like paid and gated and people are paying her to be part of it and she's like curating it in some way is there something like is she interested in design yeah i was just gonna say i i feel [[11:10]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=670s) pretty good about what i've listened to i feel pretty good about what i did because i noticed that she is really visual she loves to draw and you know i mean when i say she's she doesn't have an interest that's just like i'm gonna go draw now you know like it's not like that but when she was little she did and so you know i allowed her to get some drawing programs on her phone where you can draw with [[11:37]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=697s) your finger and you could do some really cool stuff with like neat little masks and it's almost like a little mini photoshop but on your phone and so i kind of casually said you know what do you like about the game and you know what what do you what do you especially like and she would get excited about getting a new character like you win these characters with certain powers and so forth and she would say well i you know i love the [[11:57]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=717s) aesthetic i love the aesthetic of this character and how they you know the costume and noticed this and noticed that she was noticing little details and so i said have you thought of making your own characters or may or drawing some of these characters or making something withdrawing with this and at first she kind of poo-pooed me right but then when she got the you know i just was like a question of you thought i was [[12:19]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=739s) like i couldn't possibly do it that was like i didn't say okay whatever then i said well just the same if you want any drawing programs or anything let me know so she gets this drawing program and without even telling me about it she started drawing not characters this is what was funny she started drawing not game characters but little like emoji like her own brand of little emoji like creatures and she starts she started naming them [[12:45]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=765s) and get making certain like attributes to them and i'm like where did you get that first i didn't know it was hers she would send them to me and i'm like where'd you get this this is adorable it's just like i drew it i'm like usually that so i started saying i want this on a t-shirt like i'm not even kidding you i want this on a t-shirt i let you know so the evolution of this was i didn't fight [[13:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=786s) the video gaming i just kind of instinctively said well there's something about it that she likes and i let me see if i can figure out how to turn that like you said into some kind of action-oriented thing and then there was the drawing and even then i didn't go like do this or it was more like a suggestion that she immediately poo-pooed because that's what teenagers do and then next thing you do you turn around and they're [[13:30]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=810s) they're doing it um but i love that idea find a way and and do do you think that well i was gonna say what she had the luxury being that she's homeschooled of having time to do this yeah so that's a key here like when we talk on this channel or you're on the show success without school success is not just like oh look i got a job without college you know it's also these little successes the [[13:55]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=835s) little tiny milestones like oh i found a way to entertain myself i found a way to express myself i found a way to learn on my own i found a way to succeed at some aspect of living as an independent little being and i don't need other people moving me around like a marionette right so to me that's success all that is success and when they have this freedom to kind of move around in space and time [[14:24]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=864s) more where it's not like i'm literally in a building for this many hours a day then i'm in transportation then i'm in this other organized activity and then i come home and i pretty much collapse and heap collapse in a heap i think you have less time to do this exploration stuff yeah i think i think that's spot on there's a couple things that i think you nailed with what you did that i want to like emphasize because i think [[14:48]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=888s) there are multiple things that i'm hearing where i'm just like yes yes i love this um so the first thing is that like in the story that you just told about your your daughter is that you didn't like you came to her with questions rather than suggestions and i think that's really important for opening a conversation because teenagers are notoriously contrary and they can smell you trying to get them to do something [[15:18]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=918s) from a mile away like they have spent their entire lives hearing their parents tell them what their parents want them to do and they're in this phase now where they're like no i'm my own person i'm gonna do my thing and they know all of the little ticks in how you communicate that's leading up to you wanting them to do something so you have to be incredibly careful about like you legitimately have to go into a conversation without an agenda [[15:41]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=941s) because otherwise they're going to know there's an agenda and they're going to shut down they're going to shut down i don't know how many times i've heard parents or the parents telling the story from their perspective kids telling a story from their perspective where it's like i just don't want to do this thing like my parent keeps sending me these like shopify links of like cool t-shirt stores and i don't want to do this because my [[16:00]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=960s) parent wants me to basically like it wasn't my idea so i'm not going to do it she won't let me print her designs that's you're you're so right because i said we need the i wanted a shirt let's do it she's like these are not for public consumption she got really mad i was so she i was gonna share one to show how cool they were and she was like don't you dare like don't you do it and [[16:22]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=982s) of course i don't want to violate my child's privacy like i'm not allowed to share things that she doesn't you know say okay and so i'm stymied because i'm like this is like i said girl this is money in your bank account like i don't want it for me like you could make money for real on this and she's like uh uh and i'm like yes you could i like trying to convince her but of course i [[16:45]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1005s) went way too over the top because well hey i'm her mom and i wonder about it i was excited but honestly they rock like i'm not kidding they're really really good and so i was like super enthusiastic and she saw that and that's what teenagers also don't like you know you know they want you to love them and be enthusiastic about your stuff but but not they want it they don't want it and then you do it and they're like oh my [[17:07]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1027s) god you're so weird shut up it's much better if it comes from an external party that they respect like if you had somebody like a friend that we were like hey could like you know could i share it with this one person i think she think it was really cool and you asked it like not too enthusiastic away so they're again they're not smelling that there's like some manipulation coming where you're trying to get them to do something and then the friend gets [[17:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1049s) really into it or like the the person in some position that they would admire and they would respect and there's not all of the loaded like you know that you're my parents so i don't want to do what you're asking me to um that can be a really great way to to get them to do something when i was 12 um i started making these knitted dolls for my sister um and they were like i i took a pa i [[17:52]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1072s) had this pattern for these like little knitted gnomes and i just like completely uh altered the pattern to like turn it into these dolls it was like i had inspiration for it but it was like my own set of things and i designed all of these like clothes for them i just put one on this doll knitting spree and the moms at our homeschool co-op saw them and thought they were really cool and started asking me [[18:12]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1092s) if i would if they could buy one for their daughter or their cousin or their friend and i like spun up this whole business where i like made this hand-drawn catalog and i had all of these like each it had i based it off of the american girl doll catalog so there was like different outfits with names there was like the adventure outfit and the like summer beach outfit and you had different color combos that you could pick oh my god [[18:37]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1117s) rest in like accessories or like a skirt a shirt new accessories and i'm like i had so much fun i went all out but the thing that like part of what made this and i was i wasn't a teenager yet so i probably would have been super receptive to my mom saying hey like you could probably sell these but because it was coming from people who i didn't feel like had an agenda and people who i thought well these people [[19:01]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1141s) want to give me money to make this thing they must like it i was all in on starting a business and i ran it for two or three years i was like consigning i ended up consigning these dolls at a yarn store and i was like i had this whole setup it was awesome i'm pretty sure like some of the dolls i made got shipped all the way to the west coast i was in pennsylvania at the time i [[19:20]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1160s) thought that was super cool um but it was like coming from external people who wanted what i was creating and that was such a validation for me that what i was making was cool and worth something and i feel like that can be helpful too if your team's working on something yeah that they're really excited about and there's a casual way that you can bring it up like hey would you show my like my friends over for [[19:44]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1184s) dinner you want to show them your drawings and then the friend can be the source of encouragement that can help with some of the resistance too well because that is their representative of the world yeah exactly is it amazing like kids don't really perceive their parents as being in the world either so like even when you're homeschooling unless they they and i'm going to talk about this in a minute because i have an idea about you know how we bridge this [[20:11]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1211s) gap but they they see you as kind of like in their little circle yeah and so unless you you have to either like bring the world to them or bring them to the world like maybe your mom might have also or parents listening if you know your child is into some kind of crafts like maybe taking them casually to a craft fair because you want to go like to a craft fair or to to some kind [[20:36]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1236s) of an event or that where people do whatever it is that they do expose them without it being like this idea for something that you want them to become exactly yeah exactly just to kind of feel it out and that's somewhere adjacent to the thing that they like to do a little bit well it's it's funny because we go to renaissance you know festival like every year or we did anyway until you know covet yeah um [[21:00]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1260s) and my middle daughter was really into those books about the um origami yoda and there was like a series of books about these origami star wars characters and i remember when she was in i think third grade i want to say and um it was i don't know spring break or summer time or whatever it was it was a time when she had a lot of time on her hands because at that time she wasn't homeschooled but she's reading this book [[21:24]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1284s) and she decided to make the make a little origami like star wars characters and then she she says i have an idea and i said you know what is it she comes back and she's gotten some old cardboard boxes my beach umbrella and some chairs and a big roll of duct tape and she says i'm going to sell these i'm going to sell these i'm making origami yodas and i'm going to sell them and and i was sitting there like [[21:51]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1311s) okay that sounds like a great idea wonderful where are you going to sell them and she's like oh right up there on the street i'm just going to go out at the end of the driveway and i'm going to set up my origami yoda like kiosk thing or wait on my little selling thing so of course you're trying to be the the mom who's all positive about it so i was like that's wonderful you just and my other two daughters the older one [[22:11]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1331s) and the younger one were helping and the younger one at that time is like you know six so they're getting all this stuff together and they get they they've only made you know half a dozen when they go and set up shop and she takes some string and she starts hanging the ones she's made you know from the umbrella and they're sitting out there making them she teaches her sister to make them sitting on like a [[22:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1349s) little assembly line making them then they get creative they start giving them sore like lightsabers they made the whole thing she comes back in not even 25 minutes later because i'm sitting in the dining room i can see out the window so i kind of saw cars going but i didn't want them to be unsafe but she comes running with this pile of money and like what happened she says what is this lady going back and [[22:55]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1375s) she she didn't even want one i mean she kind of wanted one she took one but then she stopped by because you just thought what we were doing was so amazing and it was so cool and she just took all the money out of her wallet and gave it to me so she goes i'm raising my price she goes outside and she takes her sign and she crosses it off i'm not even kidding you crosses it off [[23:20]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1400s) and raises her price she raised her price i don't i i guess she's like i guess my supply and demand lessons with tuttle twins paid off or something because she's just like i can't i can make these faster so sure enough people start coming by there was there was like a dad and his son come by and they bought a pair and they were actually sitting there having a lightsaber because their finger puppets having a lightsaber fight [[23:47]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1427s) and she ended up ended the day sitting out there in the heat and everything i they sold a bunch but she ended up making about 25 bucks but that's not chump change when you're you know an eight-year-old kid and it was all her idea and all i did was like sure sell origami yoda's why not but i got lucky because this was something she just kind of wanted to do yeah but again i guess the point is [[24:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1453s) when they when they have these opportunities and when they have this you know how why did she have the opportunity well she didn't have any tech because she would i had some strict rules about like what they couldn't do during the day so she had to entertain herself and she was reading and she was you know so there were these things and then beyond that i just kind of shut up and if they said they want to do something and it wasn't [[24:35]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1475s) going to like hurt them i was like sounds like a plan go sell origami yodas of course i'm not going to lie to you guys i was sitting in the room going in my dining room going please don't let her come in crushed by the end of the day with a giant pile of yodas and no money but the universe fulfilled her little dreams it was great thing is that people love supporting enthusiastic kids they love it i had the [[25:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1502s) exact same experience growing up where i'd have a project that i was working on my first ever entrepreneurial project i think it made like three dollars um i made these little i was super into gnomes at the time oh my god i started making these like little gnome-sized magazines there because i loved i got magazines in the mail all the time as a kid my mom had me signed up for like yeah all of these different or whatever [[25:24]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1524s) the one for that age range was and i started making these little tiny um magazines and books for gnomes and i took them to my like they were they were so cute they were like all like illustrated with crayon and they'd have like i i got really into um like the serial story idea so i'd have like a like of one page and be like to be continued at the bottom and it's this tiny little magazine so it's like three [[25:46]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1546s) sentences right and i found i found these last summer i was going through papers at my mom's house and i found some of them and the stores are awful but it's so cute um like i thought they had a plot they really didn't have a plot but it was adorable and i took them to my grandma's house one day to show my grandma because i was really excited about them and some of my grandma's friends were there and they just like [[26:09]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1569s) loved the entrepreneurial spirit i think and they were like i'd like to buy a subscription and they gave me like three dollars um and i never i never actually sent out the the i like i stopped making the magazines i never actually sent them one i'm pretty sure my mom made me send the three dollars back she's like teaching me good business ethics but it was like such a reaffirming thing for me that somebody wanted to buy my [[26:32]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1592s) stuff or support my stuff i think it's cool and i think that's really really important for kids is like giving them this virtuous cycle of trying stuff and then getting feedback from the real world and the real world tends to be really kind to young kids who are trying to do stuff like people probably nobody who stopped by actually wanted a baby yoda they just thought this was so cool that your kid was making these things [[26:57]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1617s) yep and they wanted to support her and i think that that's right like it's such an important set of lessons for kids to learn too because honestly a lot of the world works that way like if you start putting stuff out there people tend to receive it possibly positively people tend to be excited that you're doing stuff and you have such a huge disproportionate advantage in that regard when you're young so giving kids opportunities to do that is so important [[27:21]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1641s) and again there's so much that you did right there like you weren't pushing her to do anything you were like oh me i didn't even realize an environment that encouraged doing things which i think is important for all age ranges like give them inspiration for stuff i was making these no magazines because i was getting magazines in the mail and my mom had this really cool book about gnomes that was like diagrams of their houses i was [[27:42]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1662s) like these houses are missing books i'm gonna make the books that go in the houses because i love books so when you give your kids when you put them in an environment that has lots of inspiration you have crafting supplies and you have books on crafting and you have like children's books where the kids do crafting and you have like all of these different things that they're exposed to they're going to take that stuff and run [[28:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1686s) with it because kids play by mimicking what's in the world around them so if you set them up with great examples to do stuff like they don't have to know what they wanted what they're passionate about or what they want to spend all their time doing like childhood is supposed to be a whole series of experiments and i think the same thing applies when they get older too obviously they get a little more ornery and it gets a [[28:26]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1706s) little harder to have these conversations with them but what i love so much about the story you told is like you came to your daughter with a bunch of questions that were not leading in any way you were just like well what do you love about this like tell me more and the more specifically you can be curious about your kids interests the more you'll start to get clues about what about these things appeals to them and what might translate to other [[28:50]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1730s) aspects of life that might also be things they could try or things that are useful to them you don't want to tell them these specific things that you're seeing because then they won't do them but if you i think it's really important for parents for parents to learn how to think opportunistically like for parents to see all of these opportunities for interests to map into the real world and for especially things that are going to be [[29:17]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1757s) compelling to kids like making money is so compelling to kids and there are other things like making friends and having a community because all of this stuff that kids find incredibly motivating so if you start to see the connections where it's like oh you're really interested in video games probably there are a lot of other kids who are really interested in this game who yeah game that you love who have trouble making other friends who like this like maybe you can start [[29:44]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1784s) like there's a forum for this but there's no like discord chat room and you can start one and you can like make a bunch of friends and supervision guys obviously we're talking about supervision but yes well no i mean one of the things that i did do that i would also suggest and i have suggested to parents is you know if you can't beat them join them meaning if your kid is the kind of kid who's [[30:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1806s) like playing video games a lot or they tell you i'm not interested in anything i don't want to go out of the house i don't do that i decided rather than fight it because i want to connect with my child and i don't want her to just be in a room or you know whatever so i said all right i i'm gonna try to play the game and she looked at me and she's like are you serious [[30:25]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1825s) i said yeah and you know how terrible i'm at video games so this is big right i just i want to understand what you're spending your time doing and i want to partake so i allowed the massive amount of space for this thing to take up on my phone and i downloaded this game because it's it's really huge and then she gets all mad at me she's like oh my god you leave so many windows open and it's like [[30:45]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1845s) taking up so much business because she understands this better than i do so i started playing the game and side by side with her so we're like both lying on the bed and she's playing and i and and the kid has very long nails too so what's amazing to me is she's like super dexterous even with these nails she's like dude she's like on level 70s i know what the heck she's on right and i can't get past [[31:09]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1869s) level one i'm still like she's like ma ma ma what are you doing she's like yelling at me she was having more fun watching me just totally flail at her activity and so it ended up being fun for me because honestly playing the game was not super fun when you're failing but yeah was fun listening to her feel really good about herself and confident something that mom can't do it's kind of like and while it some [[31:35]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1895s) people might be listening going yeah but it says video game no understand something it's fine motor coordination it's planning strategy um you know just attention to detail that the reason she's good at this game and that's what i was taking note of i was taking of what she was commenting on that i was doing wrong what she was doing right because then i'd watch him look well show me teach me i look so i'd watch her [[32:00]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1920s) and i was taking note of the specific reasons she was good at it because we would sit here and we can all day going like such a waste of their time like okay maybe but let's see what makes a person good at this game there are things that make them good at that and how does that translate to so i noticed that and then what i notice is not necessarily i mean sometimes right then and there but other times outside [[32:25]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1945s) doing other things i said to her i said god you have like insane hand-eye coordination like really like what you can do with your fingers it's like such fine detail i i can't do that like i literally can't do it so i guess you can i said watch and she goes oh my god you can't and then so i'm just kind of pointing out to her these things there's no way she's going to be aware of it herself that she's [[32:51]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1971s) good at okay that make her her not and like not everybody can do this kiddo like you might think because you're so good at it it's easy for everybody i'm like no watch me you know and then other things she was telling me i'm like how did you know where to go in the didn't and she's like well here's what i did she's like show me and i went here and then i planned this and i planned [[33:09]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=1989s) that i'm like you do realize like how incredibly smart you have to be to do what you just did like that takes planning that's like a tough skill so even though i'm not connecting it immediately that's what these people do because that's agenda-driven that's too much but i did at least point it out so maybe sometime in the future when there's an opportunity and that kind of brings me to the thing i was gonna say you know they have like bring your kid [[33:34]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2014s) to work day for something i think we should have put your kid to work day and i don't mean it in the like child labor sense but our kids don't get a chance to see us doing our jobs that much if we work outside the home um even when we work inside the home really like we assume to be bored by what we do a lot of times we assume they wouldn't care or they wouldn't understand whatever [[33:56]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2036s) and i think sometimes and i've done this i was like can you help me make the graphics for my thing because you're really good at this graphic stuff and i just don't have time and i need somebody to help me make the graphics so i think if you can ask your kid to come into your or just come visit come hang out at my job i want you to come and do some stuff and then be like i can't do your job [[34:17]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2057s) obviously if you're a surgeon this is gonna work but i mean let's say you were in something where they could potentially come and just fetch and carry and empty the ch you know whatever print up copies but when they when they go outside into the world and they see people doing things and then they you know maybe they come up with questions or if nothing else like i never want to do this boring horrible job that you're doing [[34:39]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2079s) [Laughter] and that's informative that's okay that's okay yeah that's super informative so when i worked at praxis the the guy who founded praxis isaac morehouse um he wrote a book called don't do stuff you hate and he wrote some articles with the same premise and the basic idea is that it's this sort of reverse engineering of figuring out your career path where like the whole philosophy is that you don't have to know what you want to do you [[35:10]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2110s) just have to slowly figure out all the things that you don't want to do and you can take this like reverse approach to finding your passions where you slowly eliminate all the stuff you don't want to do and eventually you're left with the things that you do want to do and you know what direction you want to go in and that's so helpful for people to take all the pressure off because our culture puts so much pressure on you [[35:34]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2134s) to have to know exactly what you want to do for the rest of your life which is such a flawed idea that when you're 18 at the latest you're supposed to know what you want to do until you retire at 65 like that doesn't make any sense and yet we're putting all of this pressure on kids and then we wonder why they're so anxious and stressed but when you tell them you don't have to know what you want to do you just have [[35:57]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2157s) to slowly figure out what you don't want to do it's so freeing because then they can go try stuff and there's no pressure there's no sense of like well if i try this and i don't like it am i stuck doing this forever like no you're collecting data on exactly how you feel when you're interacting in the world and i think that's so important to expose kids to honestly fairly young like the first time they try something and they don't [[36:20]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2180s) like it or they're like i thought i was i signed up for this class because i thought i was going to love it and then i kind of hated it it's like that's okay that's part of life i do it too like you're learning what you don't like and what you don't want to do again and that's really useful information because now you don't have to waste your time on this ever again and we can go find [[36:35]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2195s) especially if you document why you didn't like it if you have a conversation we don't just like quit things because it's hard or we quit it because we're tired or you know yeah if you can articulate why and then you can like anchor that self-knowledge that's a super valuable lesson for kids too so many kids go through like never having to articulate why they feel the way they do about things but it's such a valuable life [[36:56]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2216s) skill it saves so much time when you're able to sit down and say okay this is why i don't like this and i'm not going to do it again it's exactly like that framework i think like they can experiment how to infinite em and find a whole bunch of things that they don't like and that's still okay like they can find their way eventually so david says my dad had a jewelry store and let me carve wax rings it was two [[37:18]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2238s) years before i made one at age nine it was good enough he felt it was worth casting in gold but when that ring sold i saw it and now here's what's fascinating it ties into what we're just saying i don't know if it's fascinating it's just it proves the point he says i went into research and later in the military because somebody said are you are you jeweler now and he did not become a jeweler so i [[37:36]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2256s) don't know david what if you're comfortable sharing like if if you ever considered um he says uh but yes working in his rock shop and jewelry store from age six meant being around adults learning to keep quiet listen to dolls and be responsible was very good so yeah i was curious you know when you were doing all that aside from all those wonderful lessons did you get that data about like it's great that you're a jeweler dad but like [[38:00]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2280s) not my my thing like i don't want to be a jeweler i want to go do something else instead um because you know that i do think that's kind of important data my dad used to take me to work with him he was an attorney and whenever he got a chance it like on the weekends especially he'd have to go into the city and he'd have to do work and he would i could could have stayed home but [[38:19]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2299s) he would bring me say come to the office with me so you can see what i do because i spend 90 of my time writing and in my office and researching and studying whatever and i'd never got to go to court with him but that was what a tiny percentage if i you know people watch courtroom shows they go i want to be a lawyer i'm like that's like this much of what you do so he he was nervous because i had two [[38:39]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2319s) grandfathers that was were lawyers he was a lawyer surrounded by lawyers and he didn't want me to just knee-jerk follow in his shoes he actively didn't want that so he said come to my office and watch what i do and then if it's really interesting to you i can tell you more about it but if not and i saw what he did and i saw and i was like i really like books and i like writing but this [[39:03]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2343s) looks really boring and i really don't think i want to do this so it was not a hard decision to decide later on in life that i wasn't going to just go to law school because everybody in my family was a lawyer and there are probably a lot of kids that do stuff like that like well they're lawyers that's that's all i know is lawyering you know and i saw it firsthand like this is what it's like um [[39:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2369s) and i think there are other fields that you could do that with and um and i you know i think working and my daughter got a job really young working in a fast food restaurant one of the benefits of that aside from saving money was yes i don't want to do this for the rest of my life this isn't going to be good enough for me i better turn up the heat on my other stuff and get moving because i don't [[39:51]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2391s) want to do this until i'm you know whatever so anyway i just thought i'd just throw that in there and i love that so it's just working getting out in the world collecting data i like the way you put that like the student needs to collect data so many kids in school have data collected on them yeah but they don't really get that opportunity in the institutional environment to have that data collection on their own because [[40:18]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2418s) they're not literally in the world and they're also wanting to see the world that way you're they're never caught to see the world as something where they're they are the ones in the driver's seat like they never like in school all the way through till you graduate the teacher is the central nucleus of every interaction that you have and the the administration body as a whole and the system like you're conforming to that not them conforming to you so you never [[40:46]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2446s) get the [Music] i mean honestly the self-esteem but like the internal agency and the sense of power over your own life that comes from you being the central nucleus and not in like a narcissistic way but in a very sincere like i want what's best for me because that's what's going to make me thrive and when i'm thriving that's when i'm most useful to the world around me kids never get to learn to see the world that way and i think a lot of [[41:12]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2472s) what you're talking about that's what it's making me think of is this experience that you have where you are the central creative force and the central contro like locus of control in your reality and you're looking at the world through that lens where you go and try something and you're like nope that's not for me that that's not a yes that doesn't click and so many people i feel like don't ever really get grounded in that until [[41:38]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2498s) they're like in their mid-20s at the earliest like you never get grounded in this sense of like it really is a type of self-esteem it's all the same thing it is and but you never get grounded in that and that's so important like if you can expose kids to that when they're young and they get that sense of sense of control over themselves like a lot of the peer pressure stuff that kids deal with and the poor decisions [[42:05]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2525s) that they make both culturally like you have to go to college and spend all this money that you don't have and go into debt even if it feels like a bad decision because otherwise you're a failure and also the social peer pressure of like well you have to shop at abercrombie and fitch or whatever's cool these days because otherwise you're not cool if you don't look like us um when kids get this sense of ownership and personal responsibility that stuff [[42:31]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2551s) doesn't have a hold on them anymore and they can get ahead in life so much faster and bypass so many of the painful learning experiences that most kids go through because they don't have that sense of agency and like all the little things that you can do like encouraging them okay you don't like this thing like mom thought you were gonna like it and then you tried it you didn't like it that's cool why didn't you like it like what about that [[42:50]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2570s) wasn't a yes for you but we're the ones who get to have those conversations we're the ones that have the conversations and you know gene says um lol a friend with a son who saw no reason to learn in school got him a job digging ditches which he decided wasn't job he wanted now i love this parent whoever this parent was and this brings me to the next question i want to ask you about academics but this is the flip [[43:10]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2590s) side of it so i mean my daughter didn't like hate academics but she was kind of like ugh i don't really you know i'll do my work and i'll get good grades but like whatever and i wasn't a fan of her going to college you know full disclosure she knows i feel this way if she ever sees this video she's like yeah i know um but she decided it's her life she's 18. i can't you know but [[43:31]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2611s) there are those kids who don't see the point they're like academics are just not for me it's not the thing i want to do i want to go to work i want to go out there i want to be in the world i'm going to do things now this parent said okay let's get you a job now the few very few things the kids that are that young or i don't know what age this kid was but [[43:48]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2628s) even teenagers are skilled to do they i mean if they have a skill that's great but most of them don't so here be useful it's a job pays you dig ditches or you work at fast food or you whatever it is you're you're capable of doing and that can change their mind about whether knowledge of a higher order matters to them or not some kids it might not some kids might say you know what i love the fact that i get a good [[44:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2653s) workout i'm outside i'm not i can think my own thoughts all day i can plug in ear earbuds and i could listen to a podcast while i'm digging ditches like there might be a kid who is able to learn you know to speak fluent russian while they're digging ditches like i have no idea but the point is they're not really geared for whatever reason like sitting at a desk and doing it or something like that but the fact that this parent said okay [[44:40]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2680s) i'm not gonna like force you to do this thing but you gotta be useful i mean you can't just like sit around the house i mean go out get a job see what that's all about go do something and then the kid said that's not what i want to do for the rest of my life it's all valuable it's still learning and in fact i would argue it's learning more that real world experience is giving more [[45:04]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2704s) like vital life lessons than just if they sat you know at the desk all at attention and doing the things and i don't want people to hear me saying it's not totally impossible to become a fully realized human if you go to school that's not what i'm saying i'm just saying that your opportunities are greatly reduced the number of options you have are greatly reduced the center as you said the locus of control isn't you the [[45:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2729s) center of attention and so forth isn't you so it's just a completely different model of learning and this i think is a is a better way i mean i have an opinion and here it is um but those people like david let's say you know david probably went to school i'm guessing that you did but you have parents who say come to work with me come and do this thing come out in the world experience that type of [[45:56]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2756s) stuff and today's parents have more trouble doing that with the school institution being what it is because it really sucks up a lot of time things are what they are that a lot of people feel pressured to have the two incomes especially if the kids in school all day they feel like well what's my excuse you know and so it's um the opportunities just aren't quite as there as they maybe were in the past anyway i just i just wanted to throw [[46:23]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2783s) that out there because i think this is what this parent did was great i yeah i love this so much i think school wastes a bunch of time just to be like super super blatant about this it's not just that school sucks up a bunch of time it is squandering it kids can learn everything that they learn in school in a couple hours a day if they're just like sitting down and using an app that's giving them like a mastery based [[46:50]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2810s) adaptive approach where you're not wasting time filling in wherever all the other students are you're just getting exactly what you need you're focused you're not wasting all this time on chit chat and moving between classes kids can get all that stuff done so fast that's why homeschoolers classically only spend a couple hours a day on school because that's all they have to do and they still score better than kids in public school that's all you need to know [[47:10]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2830s) um the kids don't have time to do all of this stuff and it's so important too like you learn way more from a summer job than you do in school you learn so much more about how the world works and what you're interested in and i think whatever is possible for parents to facilitate working and specifically for money or some other type of real world reward something and it's not so much to get them works it's [[47:39]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2859s) not so much to get them focused on like money being the the the purpose of it all that's not it i mean even even david makes the points as i think my greatest weakness is being able to enjoy almost anything even mopping floors but i cannot work with money as my priority i have such opposition because my dad had to work so much so you know if you're saying like i want to enjoy what i'm doing i can enjoy most [[48:00]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2880s) things but i do i've got to actually have it connect with the making money and then enjoyment and that's it for a lot of people that's elusive that's elusive and finding that balance of saying you know like okay i'll trade off loving my job because it it pays enough for me to pay my bills but you know what i have my evenings free i have my weekends free i don't have to you know i'm not a slave to the cell phone [[48:24]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2904s) whatever or maybe that that's what you do um so there's like you kind of trade off other people say like my job is my absolute passion absolutely absolutely love it doesn't pay very much but i am jumping out of bed every morning because what i get to do i would do for free you know but i think the mistake we've made is telling our kids too many times that's your goal is to like be absolutely passionate [[48:48]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2928s) every moment of every day that you are working find your passion pop follow your bliss your job has to be bliss every minute and that like i said that did sugar he might have liked it like he might or my floor mop it everybody's been like jamming and mopping the floor and like going this is cool i work oddball hours during the day i can go to the beach and surf or what i don't know like who knows what their issue is and [[49:12]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2952s) then here sean is saying i loved working in fast food i discovered i really enjoyed business for my couple years working in taco bell right out of high school quack um quacking promoted i don't think he means quacking promoted to management etc and learn you know uh learn so i think it was he ran out of space probably learned so much but the point is yes and i asked my daughter at one point because they wanted to promote her [[49:37]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=2977s) this 18 year old kid at chick-fil-a and she said no no no no no and i was like why she goes i don't want to manage people no i don't want to miss people but that was such a valuable lesson can you imagine learning at 18 that you do not want to manage people like definitively this is not your personality you've saved yourself a bunch of time oh yeah i didn't learn that i was in my 30s a lot [[50:01]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3001s) of money too if you're like going if you think that theoretically managing people sounds cool and you want to go like get an mba before you ever get real world experience and then you walk into the job and you like got this middle management job all lined up ready to go and you start working you're like wait a second i hate this that's a lot of time invested like that's yes you can break away from that but [[50:26]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3026s) even just psychologically the cost fallacy is so real in a situation like that it's really hard to justify stepping away from it but it's also really hard practically because you have all this debt to pay off now and a lot of people a lot of people have that experience where they have all these imaging getting an mba going all the way to get an mba because you're like pursuing let's say the dollars or that's how you [[50:47]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3047s) make the more money only to discover like i absolutely like hate administration i have friends who did the like top-tier college consulting track and realized they hated it and it was soul sucking and they left and went and did something else right and you know they were able to to do that they were able to make it work but that's a lot of time and like sometimes you have to find your path and that's that's the thing that you really have to [[51:14]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3074s) expose kids to more than anything else is that even though it's a huge waste of time to do that sometimes it's also necessary for people and it's not like you don't have to have all the answers that still falls under the umbrella like yes it's a very expensive way to figure out what you hate you don't want to do and there are better ways of doing it you should go get there better ways like mob floors and realize that you really [[51:35]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3095s) like research and you do theoretical sub-particle physics i love that so many different ways there's so many different paths that are okay and that's also a really important thing to expose kids to because so much of the world is trying to force them into this box of you figure out what you want to do you do it for the rest of your life and it's it's this glorified fantasy that is true for some people but for a [[52:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3122s) lot of people it's not true a lot of people don't have one burning passion that they want to go spend their whole life chasing and that's okay it doesn't make you any less of a person it doesn't make you any less valuable it doesn't mean you're going to be any less fulfilled even even though there's this cultural myth that you have to find your passion to be fulfilled you don't like i'm very passionate about education i ended up working in education totally [[52:25]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3145s) by accident because it's where the opportunities kept cropping up and then the more i got into it the more i'm like no i kind of feel like i'm supposed to be doing this right but like i have a whole bunch of other passions too there are a lot of other things that i could be doing that i would also really love and that i'm sure i will do over the course of my career i'm not thinking about my career on some [[52:41]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3161s) timeline where it's like all right i'm going to be talking about education until i'm ready to retire it's like no i'm going to do this for a while and it'll probably blend into something else and then something else and then something else and i'll just keep chasing my passions until i die like that's that's the plan but you know what that's such a good segue though to that that sort of final thing that we're talking about about what if the kid [[53:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3182s) through all the efforts and all the things they try and they try a bunch of stuff and you manage to be successful getting them to like do action-oriented activities and they still come down to the shrug of like you know what mom or dad it's like i kind of like a lot of things a little bit but i don't really have a passion i don't really have a specific interest and i'm good you know i'm fine i just [[53:22]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3202s) like you know kind of like leave me alone um i i'll give you my opinion first and i want yours my opinion is if that's where they're landing then emphasizing what we've just been talking about is like you know what the world needs flexible people the world needs people who take life as it comes and who are just as long as you are have that sort of mindset and attitude of i at least take responsibility for my [[53:52]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3232s) own happiness today you know if you're not if you're not going to have like a bigger goal or a plan or i'm going to follow this passion for five years and then whatever then as long as you're okay with like i am where i am because it's a choice also in not having this passion i am this like i am this person i'm the adaptable person i'm the person who likes a lot of things a little bit [[54:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3253s) i think helping the child become comfortable with who they are and that that is who they are is equally important and the tricky part helped me with this part is how do you as the parent or the adult or whatever know when to be just like do we do that from the start do we find a point where it's like okay here we are and that's fine or i i don't know because i just think accepting you know [[54:42]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3282s) the kid as they are even if they're just like a dilettante and they're kind of i don't know i just go with the flow is also important yeah i think this is such a tough question to answer in the general sense because i think it varies so much on a case-by-case basis there's so much like the personality of the parent and the kid involved with a dynamic is there like the specifics of the kid and their [[55:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3306s) interests and their story is really really hard to give an umbrella answer to this like i can talk about this all day in the specific case studies like if we want to go talk about like a whole bunch of specific kids i feel like i could go much deeper but i think i think you're right i think the kid needs ultimately to feel loved supported cherished uh valued like all of these things are just innately important for any human to [[55:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3329s) thrive as part of how we're wired um and i think it really does depend on the kid like how much you how much you push i think generally my advice would probably air towards don't push too much because i think the parents that are inclined to push are like need to hear that more than the parents that aren't probably pushing enough um but i think it's really like i think a lot of it comes down to dialogue again [[55:52]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3352s) like make sure you're having conversations with your kid where you're actually listening to your kid and you're not going in like you're legitimately not going in with an agenda you're not going in with an agenda you're trying to hide you legitimately there is no outcome that you're trying to create here besides better understanding your kid um like have conversations where you go in committed to making zero suggestions the whole time and you're just listening you're asking prompting questions and [[56:17]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3377s) you're asking really sincere questions and like your metric for success is like do i walk away feeling like i understand my child better before and i think that's really important because again that's really enlightening sometimes this is such a great point as i told a young friend choose your profession that will allow you to live your life where you'll be happy and the way i translate this gene is like to my kids i've said let's work backwards [[56:44]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3404s) rather than starting from this like you're young you don't know a lot and saying where i want to end up you know like like how do i take a step to just think like pictures the life that you imagine you would like to live all the way down to like i want to live in a city or i want to live in you know like this i think would be a happy life for me or i want to have kids i don't have [[57:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3422s) kids i mean i'm not talking to a 10 year old here i'm talking to kids in their later teens like they're planning do i go to college or not go to college and then they need to understand that for example if you say i would never live in a city oh god no mom i don't want to live in a city i like the more rural areas whatever then probably going and getting an mba like going to college getting an mba or [[57:27]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3447s) becoming a lawyer or something it's like you're gonna leave yourself with very few opportunities that's not that there are no rural lawyers i'm just saying you're cutting yourself you're putting yourself in a position where you're probably gonna have to spend some time in a city at least to start with um on the other hand maybe you realize like maybe i should look into farming you know maybe i should look into forestry or you know forestry management or maybe [[57:48]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3468s) i should look into running a small business or you know something along those lines because that could you know or or telecommuting or whatever but having an understanding of like you said what i don't like i don't want to live in a city or oh i never want to live in a small town or oh you know what i definitely want to have five kids these kind of things if that's really important to you enough that you know [[58:09]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3489s) this at 18 then you've got to understand that there are some steps that you either need to take or probably shouldn't take like don't take on a bunch of debt or don't you know because you're you didn't think about it and i bring this up because too often kids get on the path they get on the treadmill of like high school college go here do this this sounds like a good profession even when they love even when they love like i am passionate [[58:39]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3519s) about you know research and science i'm gonna go be a scientist and work in a lab and whatever and then they realize they have to live in one of like five places in the country to do that job and they don't like any of them yeah and they're like oh crap like i've just consigned myself to live in one of five places and i hate them all like could you found something else to do with science that maybe didn't place you [[59:03]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3543s) in a place where your everyday existence was miserable just so you could do science and this was a big real revelation for my eldest daughter like when we had this conversation she was like like light bulbs came on and she went oh my god i didn't even think of that that's like wow so i would just like my two cents is your kid may not have the specifics around what their passion or their interests are but chances are by the [[59:30]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3570s) time they're in their late teens there are certain definitive dislikes yes about lifestyle yes definitely for teenagers i have two other things to add to this really quickly one is if especially if you have younger kids um start really young with the process of helping your kids translate idea to action because that is gonna make a huge difference in as they grow up their propensity to say hey this thing sounds cool i'm going to go try [[59:59]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3599s) something i'm going to do something with it um like like the story about the origami yodas that's such a great great anecdote about this mindset like teach your kids they have an idea they're going to go like try it they think that like like whether they want to try a part-time job or they want to try writing for a magazine or they want whatever idea they have that they think is really awesome encourage action because that's going to set them up to [[60:22]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3622s) be in a much better position when they hit high school to be trying these things and then simultaneously like i honestly think so much of our culture is focused on this like one size fits all you pick your track and then you you go on that route and that's what's going to bring you fulfillment like everything in school is like propaganda for it you go to the guidance counselor's office and they have all these pamphlets that they [[60:44]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3644s) give you and they all say the same thing and that's the message 21st century skills hannah it's it's so it's so stifling for kids who don't fit into that that mold it actually makes me really angry because it's like really harmful to kids like you i think you actively have to work against that to make sure that your kid understands that life is an evolution it's a process you're going to change your mind a lot of times they're going [[61:11]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3671s) to be life circumstances that you don't anticipate there are going to be things that come up that you didn't even know existed but maybe even don't exist like there could be really cool jobs five years from now that don't even exist i'm sure there will be in the same way like being a social media manager that was not a career trajectory a decade ago and now it's something that's like people have very fulfilling careers doing and are wildly good at they have [[61:32]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3692s) talents that fit in that box that like they didn't even know it was gonna fit there because it didn't exist yet so like make sure your kids are aware of that reality too that like they could be wild like they could be born for something that will exist a decade from now and it's just like not there yet and it's okay they don't have to know so expose them to stories of people's careers who evolved over time [[61:53]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3713s) um like expose them to that reality teach them the mindset that like it's okay to be doing this by process of elimination too and you're getting like checking off all the things that you don't like that's okay get rid of all of the pressure to figure it out when you do that i think kids become they feel a lot more free to try stuff because they don't feel committed to anything that they're trying and like they're coming at it through [[62:16]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3736s) the lens of curiosity and if you can model that for them and you can frame conversations around that you can make sure they're exposed to that and then you can find them external people too who are going to maybe be they'll be more receptive to taking feedback and suggestions from than they will from mom um like i think if you're doing those things i think most kids will like they might not be receptive to it right away but i think most kids will [[62:40]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3760s) at least like start to get the get the message over time um we have to leave our fear at the door the the schools and all these propagandists are capitalizing on on our fear that our kids won't be okay they won't find a job they won't be able to take care of themselves they're gonna need to like fit in and compete they have to compete beat the same schools they're telling us let's get rid of grades because it's too competitive and [[63:07]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3787s) let's give a trophy to everybody whatever but then they'll turn around in the next thing with 21st century skills 21st century skills as if we're 22 years into this 21st century as if we know like you said we don't know in 10 years what's gonna be and let's say we did know let's say the school knew what the school could teach us as far as those so-called 21st century skills this notion that all children are going to [[63:30]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3810s) neatly fit in those boxes where are the artists where are the musicians where are the quirky people who do other things where are the people who want to go do more hands-on stuff that is not 20 decidedly 18th century level skills who cares the point is you cut off your child's opportunities if you let the fear of whether they're going to get a job dominate right so if they have the mindset like we're describing they'll get employment that's not the [[64:02]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3842s) problem they will they'll either get it or they'll make it that's not your that's the thing to be really focused on i think is is my does my kid know who they are not because i told them or some other person told them but and you're not gonna know but are they comfortable inside their own head asking questions about i like this i don't like this i know why you know this metacognition thing that to me is the skill to cultivate [[64:31]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3871s) that goes to transmens all centuries that and your relationship with a kid yes because that's going to be an ongoing like you wanna build it's okay if it takes like two years to have a breakthrough where your kids like oh i'm interested in this you're investing in the long term relationship where they're in their mid-20s and they're thinking through some type of career transition and they trust you as a resource to talk through that with them [[64:52]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3892s) because they know that they're gonna get like a solid uh loving but not like super biased opinion on like what you think they should do like that's also you're investing in that too because it's a long-term process like your kid doesn't have to have it all figured out by 18 and then you'll never talk about it again like they're gonna be 28 and they're gonna be like hey mom like this opportunity came up and like i know it's [[65:11]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3911s) a really big career pit i called my mom yesterday i was like so there's this like thing that i'm thinking about doing but like these things feel weird about it like i want to talk through it with somebody and like my mom was the first person i called because i know she's gonna give me a really great unbiased or like maybe biased but like honestly biased set of a penny like that's that's really far away like we're gonna miss [[65:29]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3929s) you like you know like i knew that she'd be a great sounding board yeah and like that's the kind of relationship that you want to facilitate with your kids and sometimes that means you got to sit back for a while and like let them make some mistakes that are really hard to watch but or like you know sit around and play video games all day and you don't see how that's going to translate to their real [[65:50]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3950s) life and you've got to just kind of take a leap of faith to let them do it but you're investing in the relationship too that is going to last much longer and be far more important than how fulfilled they feel in their like college plans when they're 17. exactly keep that in mind too this is a lifetime relationship that you're trying to build where you can be their support system forever and that's also one of the goals here [[66:16]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=3976s) yeah i just have to say as we wrap up these commenters are awesome i'm like i you guys are you guys are the best can you come back every week seriously these no they're fantastic look at these ideas there's like we get david and jean and shawn and elvis and john they're getting there's stuff in here like do you this is great do you love to ski orthopedic surgeries patch of broken legs can't stand city life big animal [[66:43]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4003s) vets are needed everywhere yes you need to be like a counselor this is great and then this one it says and every feedlot and ranch association in the country will pay to send you to veterinary school do you know that people don't know this david this is gold this is fan flippingtastic and it just it just kind of goes on interested in radio oil companies and shipping lines will pay you 10 to 30 000 a month if you get an [[67:06]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4026s) fcc general technician license that costs 100 bucks schools don't provide any of this no this is what the real world and exposing your talented real world and other people who live in the real world yes and who are doing things that they're interested in too like if your kid's really interested in radio go like have them meet a bunch of people like have them go try stuff like draw the connections like hey if you write about [[67:30]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4050s) radio like you'll go find a bunch of friends like the david perrell style approach they'll write a passage like go write about what you're interested in then people on the internet who are also share your nerdy interests will find you like that's a great just don't know community yet out in the world and meeting people who do things that you find are remotely interesting go to places where they are etcetera and i mean i think we've we've pretty much [[67:51]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4071s) i think we've covered it at least for this week we may come back to this kind of a topic because it's a hot one i get like i said at the outset i get this all the time my kids aren't understanding and you know what my first instinct actually is especially if they're in school like get them out of school but that's you know not the i can't really you know say that to everybody yes i can but i try to be [[68:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4093s) compassionate about it yeah and you know that's but that's kind of the point of the show too is success without school right so you guys are gonna hear our opinions we're just gonna we're gonna say that but i have to thank everybody who came today to this live those of you watching on the replay they're giving you gold here like take notes they're as valuable to this broadcast i think well maybe possibly more valuable than we are i don't know but i do i do i [[68:41]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4121s) do appreciate it this real world experience here in the chat um so hannah will be back uh henry back with me next week as we bring you another episode of success without school please remember to comment like share and subscribe and don't forget to follow hannah at rebel educator on twitter there's also a sub stack brewing working on it right a rebel educator but she's got some fabulous twitter threads so definitely subscribe over there and um i thank [[69:13]](https://youtu.be/cZtsrIL328k?t=4153s) everybody for coming today so thanks a lot see you next week see you next week all right where we go here