The Death of Debate: Charlie Kirk, Our Schools, and Marxist Infiltration - Pt 1

0:00 Hey there friends, fans, and foes of Dad Saves America. John Pola here, and this Friday is a little different. It's a little special. This is part one of a six-part series that we have been working on for over 2 years about what has happened to debate in America and in our schools. It is called The Death of Debate, and it is the culmination of a lot of work. It actually began as a feature documentary, actually a lot like this channel did. But as we dug in deeper, we realized one film was not enough. And so over the next six weeks, each Friday, we will be releasing a new episode straight through to the end of the year. I think it is a great opportunity to reflect on a bigger picture for our country, for our kids, and for our future. And recent events have made this even more important than ever. So, buckle up and if you don't want to miss the next five episodes, be sure to hit the like button, subscribe to the channel, and without further ado, let's start exploring the death of debate.

1:09 [music] [music] >> Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years? Counting or not counting gang violence? Great. Political activist Charlie Kirk has been shot at an event in Utah. >> Kirk is in critical condition. >> I was in the middle of conducting an interview for the series you're watching right now when it happened.

1:40 >> Breaking news out of Utah. Podcaster and Republican activist Charlie Kirk is dead after being shot during a debate. >> In a split second, it really felt like everything had changed in America. And this project we've been working on for the past two years about debate and discourse in our schools and in our country as a whole. [music] Well, it became much more visceral and urgent. There's so much of what people are quick to label hate speech or misinformation [music] that's really just a different point of view.

2:09 >> I didn't like what he said and I didn't like his opinions and I don't really give a that he's dead. And even in the cases where you are dealing with genuine hate speech, I think the lesson from the past is that it's best to argue against it. If you are censoring speech that you think is genuinely hateful, then there's no opportunity to explain why that kind those kinds of ideas are so wrong is much the whole idea of free speech is that we want the bad ideas to be articulated precisely so that we can argue against them. If you allow the bad ideas to go underground and to fester, then there's no chance to debunk them or air them openly. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Debate is the essential precondition for democratic rule and for free societies. Yes, it is. Especially here in America. And yet here we were watching in horror as a 31-year-old Charlie Kirk was assassinated in broad daylight. He was holding one of his prove me wrong events on the campus of Utah Valley University, something he'd done many times before. We agreed. Sure.

3:18 Great. Keep going. >> We've already seen too many assassinations in this country. And it's not that long ago that we saw President Trump come within an inch of being killed himself. But this was different. Charlie Kirk wasn't a politician. He held no coercive power over other people. and he was doing something when he was murdered. That's the very bedrock of Western civilization itself, going all the way back to Socrates. He was trying to persuade people to his point of view with words, not weapons, words, not violence, speech. And while I am not prepared to claim I know all of the motivations of his alleged killer, as I sit here, we have been told [music] quite explicitly what millions of people think about his death.

4:12 >> Charlie Kirk just got [music] shot in the neck. Hey, >> that it was justified because his words were hateful. >> Yo, they got Charlie Kirk, bro. I've never [music] been happier. >> Rest in peace, [singing] Bozo. Uh-uh. I've been saying we need to bring back political assassinations. I don't feel bad. >> Y'all keep on talking about his wife and kids. Like, [music] get rid of the whole family. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Why did you guys stop with him?

4:37 >> The reason why people think like that is because they think that words are violence, right? [laughter] And that's where this is coming from. They think that saying something that might make you that you disagree with that makes you go, "Ooh, I wonder if that means something about me." or ooh that makes me feel a bit funny inside is suddenly that that's unacceptable. Well, that's just crazy. And meanwhile, these same people will shout vitriol in my face, but they don't think I wonder if that makes Catherine feel uncomfortable.

5:08 [laughter] Um, this is ridiculous. Uh, talking about ideas. Look, if you can't handle listening to ideas that don't fit with your own, then well, you might as well jump off Tower Bridge. I mean, this is crazy. This idea that speech is violence is rooted in academic philosophers who are fundamentally self-described and avowed Marxists. Herbert Marcusa, Michelle Fuko, and the intersectionalists. They believe that there is no such thing as objective truth. That frankly there is no reality itself. There is only power and words. They are truly post-modern.

5:50 And so words are uniquely powerful. And when you accept this assertion that speech is violence, this moral inversion, this perversion of language and concepts, the result is the collapse of civilization and the death of debate. >> Basically, that's where the liberals lost me and lost their way. They forgot about Western civilization because woke is all about identity and not about ideas, [music] >> right? Because it's the opposite of debate. debate has an assumption that you and I can strongly disagree about something super important, foundational, even core to our identities, and that we can disagree and walk away peacefully [music] unharmed. Maybe a little uncomfortable, but fundamentally unharmed. I want to begin by saying again how much I respect Senator Dole and his record of public service and how hard I will try to make this campaign and this debate one of ideas, not insults. In fact, the very notion that any human being can learn anything at all relies on the idea that you will hear something you don't already know. And to hear something you don't already know is to challenge your ignorance. And so the idea that discomfort from words is anything other than the process of learning itself is an attack on the very nature of the human mind. The reason Charlie Kirk got shot on a college campus, the reason why he felt he had to go to college campuses in the first place is because he was delivering a full frontal assault on this idea that words are violence. He rejected it rightfully.

7:30 >> That's a good argument to your credit. I will try to make a better argument because whatever you think of Charlie Kirk, he understood that this was part of what [music] it meant to be the west. He understood that to be western, [music] to be civilized in the western sense is to be able to keep your sword in its sheath and engage in dialogue in civil and frankly sometimes not so civil discourse. When you say speech is violence, your ultimate goal is to normalize violence to justify it. Speech as violence is the precursor to using violence against speech. It's the justification for it. In fact, [music] it's the moral equivalency. So the question is, how did we get here? How do we get to the point where doing what Kirk did, having debates with kids on college campuses, became something like a revolutionary act, something dangerous, deadly even? That story starts much earlier than most people actually realize. For our kids, it doesn't start in college, but as [music] early as middle school. For our culture, it goes all the way back to the Greeks [music] and the execution of Socrates himself for corrupting the youth with his discourses. And for me, it begins with an article in the [music] free press that lands me in the judges seat of a debate that to this day gives me a glimmer of hope for our kids and their future in this otherwise dark and sensorious time.

9:06 It's May 2023. [music] Joe Biden is still president, at least on paper. Donald Trump hasn't yet clinched the Republican nomination, and what can best be described as the woke reign [music] of terror is still gripping the whole of American culture. That's when I came across this article [music] in Barry Weiss's Free Press. At high school debates, debate is no longer allowed. What it alleges [music] is truly shocking. No, it it's not shocking at all. Actually, it's [music] disturbing. It's demoralizing, but frankly, it's predictable. The author, James Fishbach, a former high school debater himself, claims that the country's largest school debate league, the NSDA, or National Speech and Debate Association, has been taken over by far-left woke ideology. In the article, James writes, "After college, between 2017 and 2019, I coached a debate team at an underprivileged high school in Miami. There I witnessed the pillars of high school debate start to crumble.

10:13 Since then, the decline has continued from a competition that rewards evidence and reasoning to one that punishes students for what they say and how they say it. Instead of classic old school debate, they're explicitly racist. >> They have a white debater on their team, which inherently means they have more whiteness than us. We obviously know that JJ is not white. It's pretty obvious. >> And these young student debaters are forced to play a rigged game with judges who are openly and explicitly biased and frankly truly radical. Fishbach wrote about something I'd never heard of called paradigms. These are descriptions written by the judges about the kinds of arguments they want from debaters. The NSDA kept them on a website called Tabroom Room. And according to Fishbach, some of them were frankly horrendous. At worst, they say things like this. Before anything else, including being a debate judge, I am a Marxist Leninist Mauist. I cannot check my revolutionary proletarian science at the door when I'm judging. And I will no longer evaluate and thus never vote for rightest capitalist imperialist positions or arguments. This is from Llaya Lavender who is a biological male for what it's worth. Or how about this one from ex Braithweight. One don't have to disclose to you. to disclose to.

11:42 Okay, so here's some context. About 150,000 middle school and high school students participate in debate clubs and competitions across the US. Now, that's not a lot of [music] kids, but who they are matters. They are the most politically engaged young people in our society. They've raised their hand to engage in big ideas. They will go on to represent up to onethird of the US Congress and about half of our current Supreme Court. They fill our law firms and boardrooms. [music] They are the future leaders shaping our country and our culture. Speech and debate is an activity that gives students not only skills in researching topics and engaging with opposing ideas, but it gives them speaking skills and confidence behind a camera. and in in politics, in leaders in business and Hollywood, a lot of them have speech and debate competition cuz they're building those skills at age 15, 16, 17, and the rest of us, you know, are scared to death of public speaking.

12:50 >> And according to James, they've been brainwashed by the cult of speeches violence. >> I don't want to hear Mr. or Miss from anyone. That would be greatly appreciated as we try to respect the differences of every single person here. Was this really possible? I mean, it certainly seemed right and [music] on par with so much going on in America. >> My room does not have a flag. It used to be there, but [music] I took it down during co because it made me uncomfortable.

13:19 >> If I am the GSA faculty advisor, [music] I love gay people. If I hear you say a damn word against any of them, I will open a can >> and I will make your life a living hell. We'd all seen it right in our faces. Cancel culture spreading through the media, Hollywood, and beyond. >> In the Heights is coming under fire from some who say it does not properly represent the community where it takes [music] place.

13:44 >> Harry Potter creator JK Rowling now talking about backlash and [music] threats that she faced over her comments about transgender people. >> For hate speech, for jokes, and you're not allowed on late night TV either. I don't get invited. You say the wrong thing and it's like, "Oh man, suddenly your career [music] is over." >> At one point, I remember not being able to go outside my house because press would be waiting for me on the other side of my door.

14:09 >> None of it ever made sense. It's America, especially now in 2025. And it's just a sort of victim class hustle. Professors getting run off campuses. 50 students streamed into my classroom accusing me of racism, demanding that I resign [music] or be fired. So, I started to have a discussion with them. I tried to get them to engage me, to tell me what [music] it was that they thought I was doing, what they saw about other racism on campus, and I wanted to try to [music] persuade them that they misunderstood things. This actually enraged them even more. I'd known for a long time that K through2 had been corrupted by identity politics and have spent the past 3 years on this channel pointing that out. But even I was shocked that the debate clubs were effectively banning debate itself.

15:00 That's exactly what this article alleged. There were reasons, frankly, to be skeptical of James Fishbach. He's not just some conservative guy. He's a proudly partisan MAGA operative. So, anything he says about the woke leftists taking over the NSDA needs to be taken with a grain of salt, even if I mostly agree with it. In fact, especially if I agree with it because confirmation bias is a powerful force and so are personal incentives which in this case are also at play. You see, James runs a rival debate league. Incubate debate. So that's kind of like Coke talking trash about Pepsi. Anything James says about the NSDA needs to be taken with a grain of salt the size of an asteroid. Still, it wasn't just James Fishbach saying these things. There was and are others, including another debate alumni, Maya Bodnik. Not long after the Fishbach article, she wrote similar things in her essay, how critical theory is radicalizing debate. Bodnik writes, instead of expanding students worldviews, [music] debate has increasingly narrowed to become a microcosm of critical theory. And she's not just running her mouth, she's crunched the numbers. Bodnik analyzed 8 years of one of the most prestigious high school tournaments in the country.

16:22 And this is what she found. 67% of semi-final and final rounds in the allimportant [music] policy debates featured critical theory arguments. So what you might say, another conservative attacking establishment [music] high school debate. Wrong. She's no MAGA activist. In fact, she's a Democratic party activist who also goes to Harvard. Something about this story stuck with me and it kept sticking with me because in a very real sense it cuts to the very core of what motivates me and this channel. [music] I've always basically been kind of a right-winger. I loved Alex P. Keaton as a kid.

17:02 >> Attack is a terrible hairy liberal monster. >> My first trip to New York City in high school was to see Rush Limbaugh's TV show. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Lush Limbbo >> with a fellow conservative girl from my social studies class named Gabby, who I also had a crush on and had no chance with otherwise. And every holiday, I cherished getting into rockus political debates with my uncle Bill, a Philadelphia trial lawyer and a lifelong liberal Democrat and one of the most important men in my life next to my own father. My relationship with my uncle taught me that you could deeply disagree about politics while still respecting and even loving your opponent. And that lesson is embedded in the other debate work I've done over the past decade, producing educational rap videos that pit big ideas against each other in steelman battles to the lyrical death.

18:03 Canes versus Hayek, Mises versus Marx, Al Gore versus Alex Epstein. Just cuz you're moderate doesn't mean you're right. Extremist aversion is a common bias. [music] Be for real. On that point, we kind of agree. I genuinely believe in the ethic of John Stewart Mill who wrote, "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, [music] if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion. Nor is it enough that he should hear the opinions of adversaries from his own teachers presented as they state them and accompanied by what they offer as reputations. He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them. [music] He must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

19:01 >> You should be able to [music] make your opponent's argument better than they're able to make it. If you're really trying to figure out what's true, you need to look at beliefs and ideas that are different from your own. And you need to figure out why would someone believe this? Why would a rational, sane, thoughtful person think that this is true? Free and open debate is a fundamental part of my life and that's why it struck such a huge chord in me when I read this article. It led to an interview with [music] the source of the story, James Fishbach. It led to my stint as a championship debate judge, [music] and it led to very frank meetings with the NSDA, the league accused of being the woke evil empire by James and others. [music] It led us to talk to all kinds of people of all political stripes from Vet Brahma Swami to Bill Delasio and of course dozens and dozens of high school debate kids, coaches and judges from across the country. Unashamed progressives pushing an agenda.

20:04 >> I've painted my own nails for young people [music] to say that gender is a construct. >> Rural conservatives who feel like they're being persecuted. I'm literally a white guy staring you in the [music] face and all you want to tell me is how whites are nothing but racist people that want to keep African-Americans down and this is white people making this argument >> and the most amazing students you've ever seen who should give all of us hope for the future.

20:28 >> That is the problem with DEI. It is not only immoral, it is unamerican [music] to assume what someone's beliefs are and what someone's knowledge level is simply because where they come from. We have to have a merit-based system where we can look past our [music] looks and look through our minds. >> What we uncovered on this journey was not what I expected. And the story involves nearly every aspect of American culture. Free speech and open debate is woven into the very fabric of what it means to be an American, to be human.

20:57 Most human beings prior to the, I don't know, the 1800s lived [music] somewhere where there you could be killed for insulting your neighbors. you could be killed for disagreeing with religious authorities or the king or whoever it was. After, you know, decades of religious warfare in Europe, they decided, let's try it some other way. Let's practice a new thing where I might dislike what you say, but I cannot engage in violence against you for it. I can't have you arrested [music] because of it. And this has led to modernity, to civilization, to a decline in violence and conflict, and to human flourishing.

21:36 Debate has [music] been integral to key moments that defined who we are, where we're going, and who would lead us. >> There you go again. >> It's been used by comedians, [music] philosophers, and brilliant men and women to push the boundaries of how we think and what we can think. >> You're making this harder than it is. And my concern is why? Right. >> Well, I don't think I am. >> And recently, just in the past few years, free speech and open debate have been threatened in ways that many of us never thought possible.

22:10 >> Debate is a lost art. The art of understanding, the art, especially of listening to each other. That's really what's changed in America. And we have evidence for that in a study that we that we created at Open to Debate where we analyzed 20 years of presidential debates [music] and saw a complete decline in civility, a decline in respect, a decline in the quality of moderation [music] of argumentation, answering a question just following a basic structure [music] that gets us to a conversation. And it's culminated this year in the most personal attacks, the least answered questions, [music] really the lowest quality public policy debates that we've seen on record in this country.

22:56 >> No one up here is going to call you Donald Trump anymore. We're going to call you Donald Duck. >> For the past 2 years, we've been on a journey to understand what has happened to debate in our schools and our culture. How did we get to a place in America where a peaceful activist could be gunned down on a college campus for debating his opinions and millions of our fellow citizens would celebrate it as an act of justice?

23:25 >> Where do we go from here? And what must we as parents and citizens do to prevent the death of debate? >> [music] >> Okay, we are off to the races to save debate in America. Uh, this was part one of six parts. Next Friday, we are going to be going back in time to the origins of debate in the west with good old Socrates or so crates as Bill and Ted uh [laughter] planted in my Gen X mind.

24:09 >> So crates um Socrates versus the sophists. And then as we march back to the present, we go through the debates of American history, the impact of our presidential debates, and then of course, what's happening in our schools with the National Speech and Debate Association. What are the lessons our kids are learning and not learning? And finally, in episode 6, you will really get, frankly, one of the most heartwarming and exciting examples of what our kids in this country are capable of. when you give them a chance to actually battle out their ideas in a true forum, not limited by ideological blinders or a very narrow Overton window. So, if you don't want to miss it, be sure to hit the like button, subscribe to the channel, of course, head over to dadsavesamea.com where you can be notified over email and find lots of other resources. And if you want to spice things up a little more, follow me over at X um John Papola. And of course, have a great weekend.