How Sam Pond Built a 7,000-Case Referral Machine — And Pulls 7 Figures From Files Other Firms Reject

0:00 You could be a great neuro surgeon, but if you have no patience, it really doesn't matter. >> A lot of PI firms are just running on hope, but with private equity knocking and ad costs skyrocketing, if you aren't adapting, you'll be left behind. >> Hope is is is not the answer, and putting your head in the sand is not the answer. Today is all about the business of law right now, and I brought the perfect guest to make sense of it.

0:19 >> You know, I've been doing this for 40 years, and it's I think the last 10 years, and especially last couple years, things have just accelerated. >> I'm pumped to welcome another PIM CON 2026 speaker to the show, Sam Pond, a managing partner at Pond Lehocky. With a staff of over 200 across 14 cities, they operate at massive scale. They've also built a B2B pipeline that refers out 7,000 cases a month. That's right, 7,000 cases a month. You don't hit numbers like that without treating people right.

0:44 >> to make sure your referral partners are protected. I have actually taken it the attitude of referral partners first. Those referrals get Sam 20,000 cases a year. You don't get that kind of referral engine by being greedy. You do it by protecting your partners and making excellence the standard. This is Personal Injury Mastermind. I'm Chris Dryer, founder and CEO of Rankings.io, the elite performance marketing agency for personal injury law firms. Today, Sam and I are breaking down the threat of private equity, the velocity of capital, and how operational excellence lets his firm pull seven figures a year from cases other firms straight up reject. We touch on the sheer scale and economics of his referral program today, but if you want the exact strategies on how to maximize your own B2B engine, you need to be in the room. Come to Scottsdale, Arizona from October 4th through 6th, and get it straight from Sam himself. Commit to growth and reserve your space at pimcon.org. All right, let's get into it. I kind of want to start with the marketing landscape. It's getting tougher, right?

1:36 Especially on the PI on the injury side. you know, your positioning you first I noticed on the homepage it says for all your legal needs. Some pages it just says, you know, Nevada attorneys. It doesn't drill down. talk to me about I guess positioning today and kind of how it's changed a little bit over the years. Oh gosh, you know, I've been doing this for 40 years and it's the last I think the last 10 years and especially the last couple years things have just accelerated. So many things going on. I think you know now with private equity coming in and you know, the ABSs in in Arizona and you know, the MSOs, the management services organizations with private equity money coming in.

2:19 Capital markets are coming in. It's you know, it's the last bastion really of of where you can put capital and get a great return on margins. But we see all that and you know, they've approached us, but we probably hockey's we feel that we're very well positioned. We're you know, we have a very very strong balance sheet. We're we're thinking long-term. Zaremba Hockey and Sam Pond are not going anywhere. So we're not worried about liquidating. But you know, it all goes back to the client. And I really think that that's you know, sometimes we we we get all caught up in the business of law and we we forget about you know, I still try cases. So you know, it's we signed up to represent clients.

2:57 but the marketing we decided Jerry and I that we were going to go big into marketing because we felt like we had no other choice. and we've you know, we've clearly immersed ourselves in marketing. We have a very very dynamic vibrant marketing team with a great CMO and you know, we understand branding. We understand client case acquisition. We understand ROI. You know, we have you know, big data pool and we understand what's going on with artificial intelligence and and how that is coming into the space and you know, what it's going to do and the client experience. So Chris, there's a lot going on. We feel that we have to grow in order to just be relevant continue to be relevant. Yet you know, we're we're in the process of taking over a couple smaller shops.

3:48 And I have to tell you it's amazing even when I speak at at conferences and I say, you know, what do you how many people look at their balance sheet every month? I don't I think some people don't even know what a balance sheet is. It's wild. There's practic There's practic practicing seeing lawyers out there that are very successful, don't have operating systems. you know, that it's it's fascinating. But they're you know, they're there and I think a lot of attorneys are in our space that are you know, generally it's a it's a two-person attorney shop. That's the average.

4:20 For the 30,000 practitioners doing this. they really I think they're just hoping and praying that the whole thing will go by them and you know, good times will come back. and you know, hope with is is not the answer and putting your head in the sand is not the answer. You've got to really face reality as to what's going on and things will start to consolidate. We're starting to see it happen. and we think we're well positioned to do that and represent clients and with the technology to create you know, a lot more. Going back to your question about Nevada, Parnall Hockey sends out about 7,000 cases per month to other law firms throughout the country in the United States territories. So, we have a very large referral practice. I don't know if it's as big as as my good friend John Morgan's, but it's significant and we send to every every state.

5:13 and we keep track of that. We have created a piece of technology called Case Exchange that it now allows us to do you know, keep that and make sure the client gets serviced and the sign-ups are there and what's the what's the the you know, is it in litigation? Is it not litigation? and I that'll have the ability finally to have IOLTA accounts exchange monies. So, we understand about being efficient, about being productive and everything that's swirling around us that we just have to stay ahead of it.

5:46 I only have about a million questions after that opener there, Sam. you know, I I guess this to start, you mentioned the consolidation, the MSOs, the ABSs, and you know, we saw a couple of the big announcements, and at least, you know, on my side, on the agency side, even the agency side, there's a lot of the agencies getting bought up, and they're getting the multiples, and and we're seeing it now law firms in the past, you know, two and a half to four were the multiples, and I've saw seven, a seven and a half. So, I think that's supply and demand is going to keep increasing costs. You know, are you seeing kind of the those multiples rising? I mean, they're they're getting to the point where Yeah. it's no longer those four X's. And as they should. And you know, because the margins are so you have to understand that this is a this is a practice area, a business area that really has no You can You can say our you know, our brother, sister profession being medicine, that it really doesn't have any macroeconomic risk. What's the macroeconomic risk? We get busier in in in in downturns.

6:51 So, when when when the the credit markets and the investors come in and look at this market, and they finally get an understanding that what's the risk? The economic risk isn't there. There's no macroeconomic risk. If you're a bank and a lender, you're not lending to a used car salesman and the their inventory that if the economy goes down, they're not going to be able to sell cars, and and their debt your you know, your loan is going to be worthless.

7:15 We're talking about that we have 40 years, 50 years, 60 years of data in the personal injury field that shows our inventory will return X, no matter what. Now, the only other risk that you have is legislative political risk. But if you're diversified in different areas of law, and in diversified in in a number of different states, then that risk doesn't really exist. Mhm. So, unless the world blows up, this profession is a really or unless we don't have the rule of law and we decide that we don't have a constitutional republic anymore and people under under state constitutions and the federal constitutions can't bring an action for tort, there's no risk and the margins are incredible.

8:01 So, you know, it it the multiple at two, three, or even seven to me, I mean, I'm not talking about this being a tech company where you're getting, you know, a multiple on the top top line. You're these are multiples on EBITDA, but it doesn't make any sense. These numbers don't make any sense. They really don't. They're not They're not valuing these firms. Some firms have to go away. They're looking for a liquidation. They want to get out of it and they're biting.

8:27 but I think that, you know, that's a problem. I think the other problem that exists with these these practices, there's no succession plan. and by the way, when you buy it, and we know some of the firms, you know, I know the same people that you know, that when you buy this as a P as a private equity, are you going to lose some of the legal talent cuz you can't keep them. There's no non-competes. There's no non-competes and some people are jumping ship cuz they don't like the PE model. They don't like the PE how they're telling them what to do in regard to how they should be operating, even though they're not supposed to be doing that, but with staff, they control the staff.

9:06 you know, they control your paralegal and how much a paralegal should be getting and you know, that all creates a cultural difference. So, they're going to have to work this out. Polihockey's we're in our own lane. We know that we're not we're not worried about that. That's not If we are we're a we have we have access to what we need to have access to. We are long-term free cash flow back into the business. And by the way, your listeners should understand, why would you take money, assuming you have your bills are being paid. Why would you take excess profit, free cash flow out of your law firm and get taxed at 60% when you could put it back into your law firm when you know you're going to get a multiple of X?

9:49 Doesn't make any sense. I I agree with everything you're saying, right? In the past the banks, you know, you go you through your underwriting process and they'll go against the hard asset of a house and and but now like, hey, here's case inventory that has historical these are the fees here here's here's what they're worth. You know, a lot safer. I mean, I agree with everything you're saying. You know, I I guess for our audience listening, right? Like they want to build pipeline, they you know, they want to get referrals, they want to stay you know, they're they're interested in in not selling and you know, they want to think about how to build pipeline themselves. Like you've got the B2B play, right? With your history and the and the the labor unions.

10:31 your history in the space with your peers, right? Getting legal referrals. How do you think you you approach, you know, marketing and generating case acquisition if you're not wanting to sell like obviously that's a loaded question, but just How do you think about it? >> verticals. It depends on where you're at and what do you want? You know, I always talked in to groups. I you know, it's it's know thyself. Know what you want. Do you are you ambitious? Are you hungry? Do you have vision? You know, you I'm going I'm using John Morgan's terms which you all have heard, but do we all have it?

11:08 Do we really want to be Morgan and Morgan? Do we really want to be Panley Hockey? Or do you want to find your niche somewhere? You know, we have a lot of firms that have no interest in advertising, great trial lawyers. Don't want to necessarily come with us. And we have we you know, we have very fair deals with them. They take good care of our clients. We have really good operating So, the problem sometimes and I to answer your question if you're a good trial lawyer, you've got to get cases. You could be a great neurosurgeon, but if you have no patients, it really doesn't matter.

11:37 So, how do you do it? Yeah, you have to really get involved. I think relationships don't cost you anything except for a lunch. so, you you really have to do that, and then you have to bring something to the table. What do you bring to the table? Are you a really good promises person that has a history of getting really great results? And by the way, don't you know, people want to say, "Well, what about billboards?" The only way that I would suggest to anyone go into billboards, and we we have a rule in certain places where we go. We're going to have three or four billboards in a row.

12:07 That's probably a hockey statement. Don't put up one billboard or two billboards or three billboards, you know, and then take them down in 12 months. Billboards like being part of the mafia. Once you put them up, you can't take them down. because people are wondering where you went. Why did Why did Why did their billboards come down? You know, and then clearly one of the places is to look is, you know, is is if you can have some social media, if you can do an Instagram, if you can clearly go and do digital.

12:36 You know, there's brand, there's acquisition. And what do you want? Are you just worried about acquisition or you're so you know, brand is a totally different play. To have a big brand in a crowded market such as Philadelphia, you're going to have to really understand that's going to really cost a lot of time and money. And do you want to do that? For what reason? Or do you want to have a niche where you're at just acquiring cases because you're really good lawyer, good operator. The problem is you people don't understand how to operate. They need to be really good operators.

13:05 Because operations is number one service to the client. You're going to deliver better service to the client. You're going to deliver better service. We demand on our referral partners that they they know how to operate. And we'll teach you how to operate. And some of the firms that you talked about that had private equity take them over, they were also going out and teaching other people how to operate. That's the other thing. So, you have to be a good operator. And you can't be just not understanding that you've got to be efficient, you've got to service, you have to have checklists in place.

13:36 it So, there's there's so much that goes into this. But to answer your question, I think first start to see if you have relationships and find out who the feeder is. Who are the advertisers among the lower? Let me contact the advertiser. What kind of cases that you have that you don't want to handle or you're not satisfied where you're at? Or give me a try. I'll give you a better deal. Different referral mechanism, you know, just to get my foot in the door.

13:59 And I'm talking about some of the younger folks. And by the way, we're not really seeing a lot of young people come in into this space at least to start because it's very difficult to hang your shingle. Well, I was just going to say, I mean, you mentioned the balance sheet and the cash acceleration cycle. First of all, a lot of these firms are EOS based and they don't even teach cash based strategies, right? That's scaling up. The So, yeah, the capital required intensive, labor's more costly because everybody's competing over the talent.

14:30 Yeah, so I I agree. Networking, belly to belly, being an expert in an area. You know, the operational excellence Yeah, here I I I I have different We'll have vendors come on, different marketers and they're like somebody will say lead gen works like just, you know, like your your walkers or whatever and but then it's like, well, if you don't have operational excellence and your fall off rate's terrible and you don't have good fees, then it doesn't work.

14:53 So, you know, >> I couldn't agree with you more. Very, very important point. Because really where the rubber meets the road is if you're going to go out and contact a lead company and start getting leads, if you don't get that that call immediately and service that client, you are paying for a lead that doesn't convert. And that is that is a death sentence. That's a death sentence. The other thing that folks and you've just really really got on to something in regard to You have to understand that our cost of goods sold don't get a return for a period of time.

15:27 So when you get a case, find out the duration before it turns into money. So did can you get a premises case or an MVA case or a pre-lit case that you're actually going to have the velocity So what's the velocity of the return? Is the velocity return 6 months, 14 months, 18 months? For like a malpractice case, 40 months. Do you can you have a mix? What do I need to have cash flow? And by the way, cash flow is your oxygen.

15:54 Cuz if you don't have cash flow, you're going to be insolvent if you don't have an availability of cash. So we got so many of our audience listening and they're auto auto auto, right? Auto truck, you know. I've always, you know, being on the the non-attorney side, I'm like you take a case like like a meso. I understand that it's not 4,000 or 3,000 to acquire a case, it's maybe 70 to 90,000. But the time on desk is shorter.

16:20 They accelerate the trials, right? Same for nursing neglect cases. Like I just don't understand why but it's all relative, right? If you acquire a case for this and then it's worth X if you get that ratio, how come nursing and say meso aren't more prominent? Is it Is it just that front end CAC? Is that the main Could be. >> Could be or people aren't thinking thoroughly through everything the way you are. So if you look at actually if you went in and said, "Okay, I'm going to get these kind this mix of cases and I'm going to see what the return is over 10 years with the understanding that whatever fee I get from that particular case, I'm going to put back into those areas of cases. For example, I've got this much out of a million dollars, I'm going to put $200,000 on workers' comp cases in this state, give me the return over 10 years. I've got a meso case, I've got a nursing home case.

17:19 And if you're 35 years old, 10 years is nothing. 45 years, 10 years is nothing. So, what's the return if in fact I am then putting the money back? What's the velocity? Because I'm going to tell you you'd be surprised what happens. With nursing home cases, you're going to see that that's probably one of the really good spots in regard to the to the to the return you're going to get and the velocity of return. So, yeah, you've got it you've do that exercise and you can do it with Claude.

17:52 Do that exercise and you'll be really because here's what you need to just understand. We just did this exercise on a retreat. We went on a retreat down around here in Jamaica with almost 50 people and one of the one of the main topics on the retreat was cap- capital allocation. So, the 10-year horizon for our capital allocation based on X dollars in these buckets was really, really fascinating. Was really, really fascinating. It's it's very interesting. I I Not many people are thinking about this like you are and you know, I this is like a teaser. So, I'm really excited that you're going to be speaking at PIM Con this year and you have a massive B2B, you know, referral engine, right? You you said I believe 7 or 8,000 a month.

18:39 a network of more than 2,000, maybe 3,000 firms since since I researched it. Obviously, intake is not you've already mentioned data. To to handle that volume I think I I've researched in previous Litify, but like like talk to me about capturing the wanted lead and just a- a- and just you know, what to do if this case isn't right for you and and how you've developed this referral strategy. Obviously, you know, our our team listening there's levels to this and they're not going to go from whatever they're doing to this, but I would say, "Hey, maybe they get the occasional SSDI or work comp that they don't take." Like, where How do you think about intake?

19:24 Well, we clearly think about intake in regard to responsiveness first and foremost, you know, in regard to that bedside. We also train our people to have bedside manner. So, that's very, very important. And also sale. We also have to You have to have confidence in how they sell and give them peace of mind. There's a whole That's a whole script. and you then understand that if it's a case I have to refer out, it's rejected, you're going to make sure you're immediate service.

19:52 If it's rejected, we've had third looks. So, I'll give you I'll give you an example. Our third looks generate seven figures a year. Wow. So, in other words, it was rejected by two other firms, and we now have a third look at it because there's tiers of trial lawyers. And third looks generate quite a bit of money. we look at every aspect of a possible type of legal matter that can come out of Chris Dryer's case that he got injured at work.

20:27 Is there a third party? Clearly, the Social Security disability stuff is so overlooked. And by the way, you get clients money very quickly. They're very happy. that's often overlooked. Is there an employment action? you know, so you've got you you really have to look holistically in regard to all the possible case Not Not only because of your it's generating fees, but that's what you're That's what the client deserves. It's like going to a doctor, right? So, you go to a doctor, you have to pay something. But when someone comes to a lawyer, you don't pay a contingency fee.

21:01 Doesn't cost you anything. And you get a legal diagnosis. You should be able to get a legal diagnosis. And then you should get a course of action or course of treatment that a doctor would give. And then you get a prognosis or the outcome that I'm trying to get you as to what you can do based on the law and facts. That's the experience that starts at intake. That's the experience that starts at intake. But I'm going to tell you when you increase when you increase your intake sign up, when you increase the contact to the client and it has to be extremely the studies are all out there, look them up and they'll tell you how fast you have to get on. Now look, it's a different story. Here's what you want, you know, when my brother sends me his neighbor's case, I may not have to get on the phone within the next minute.

21:51 Okay? But I clearly have to get on the phone with a with an internet lead in the next minute. And if you and by the way, when you when you clean that up and make it as tight as possible, it's the rubber where the where the rubber meets the road. That's where the and it goes back to what you said. Yeah, I can get a lead from a lead company. Well, if I don't contact them, they're gone and I had to pay for a lead. You're losing money.

22:18 Mhm. Well, also I I like how you're the holistic service model you're approaching, right? It's like the the different nuances. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but but I think we just had somebody on the property damage that gets overlooked and you know, just the different circumstances. And then that expands your network and then maybe you send a good employment case to somebody and next thing you know, that now they're sending you some injury cases. Let's say you got a good litigator listening, they have an expertise of you know, of some type of law.

22:49 How do they how do you get involved with the the your your exchange, your your program? Like like how does this work? How does somebody listening wants to be a part of this? >> have to they can just reach out to the team. I'd suggest that the best person is my son who runs our national, you know, referral network, Dylan Pond. D Pond at pondleaguehockey. .com. And Dylan will have a a Zoom call with you or a phone call with you and he will pick your brain and, you know, look at your qualifications and see what kind of relationship can be done and then we'll we will talk about being operating and reporting and going through case exchange and that'll be all done by our tech people. We'll set that all up.

23:34 And then we're off to the races to see how the relationship works. One thing that we do is we're very, very fair. We want to make sure that relationships do not last, Chris, as you know. I've been married 43 years. Congrats. >> and you've got to make relationships a a symbiotic as as they can, as fair as they can to understand, you know, when anybody in my office comes to me and says, "I just got a great deal with someone."

24:06 And I say, "Great deal for who?" "Well, great deal for us." I said, "Well, not sure that'll last because if it's too good for us and it's bad for them, then if I was them, it's not I'm not I'm not want to be in this deal. You have to make You have to make sure your referral partners are protected. I have actually taken the the attitude of referral partners first. And then, especially when you're in a position of giving, right? I'm in a position of giving, and sometimes it, you know, sometimes you get burned, but it it it's I think that that kind of reputation of fair dealing and honesty, first of all, we're lawyers. We should be bound by professional responsibility and ethical. I'm not even going to get into any spiritual or anything else about being a good person.

24:51 But, I think that kind of reputation that you're a fair dealer, you know, you're worried about the client, you're worried about your partner. You know, it's about I just I just left a meeting on an admin meeting and we talked about teams. And we talk about teams. The great thing about teams, in other words, teams within the organization, Mhm. is that you have that camaraderie, you have that bond, you have that I got your back. The same thing with referral partners. I got your back.

25:20 Just be honest, be ethical, concern about the client. Speaking of teams, and you opened up my next talking track here is you know, we're we're a couple hundred people, right? You're 200 plus. And one of the things I've noticed and I'm asking you just just how you guys saw this is like the bigger the boats it's it's starts to sway. You're got this big barge. Like when I was lean and mean, you get a couple people on a Zoom meeting, you know, or in person, and boom, you're going to make this change happen, and then it's communication requirements expand significantly.

25:58 The amount of case types that you guys are handling, I mean, that's that's complex. So, you know, when you how are you managing the different complexities, the different practice areas? It's not just, "Hey, we got our case manager pre-lit, you know, paralegal, and then it goes to trial, you know, then it moves over this other auto assembly line." I mean, you're you're handling a lot of case types. You you really want and and and I'll I'll I'll you know, I heard Jamie Dimon talk about this.

26:31 And I've always been very big on I've never been in the military. I you know, I wanted it one day to to to go into the military. But, you know, there's a number of things. You you know, the you're you're talking about leadership, and everything starts at the top, and but you really when you talk about teams, if you have litigation teams of five or six or seven, we demand that those teams meet at least every other week for at least an hour to share conversations about cases and clients and even about, you know, how's your day?

27:14 And, you know, what don't you know about this piece of law? And you're the newbie. You know, when I have people come out of law school, I said, you're like a like a first lieutenant out of West Point. You don't know a goddamn thing. So, you better go talk to the non-commissioned officer and ask the paralegals. but we demand and you know, this sometimes you get into trouble here because you assume that a a litigation handler is a good manager and a good leader.

27:41 Huh. You have to teach them how to manage and lead. And if you have those teams, Chris, as you grow, they just become solid blocks. And you have all these solid blocks. It's like it's it's like a squad of 12 in a in in the army. And then you have the platoon. And then you have the company. And then you have the battalion. And you have these blocks. And you've got to really make sure that they all lead and they're all carrying out the mission and they have the value system.

28:11 You know, one thing you don't want to be as a leader. There's a lot of things, look, you know, people say to me, what is what's about leadership? And I said, well, it's not real complicated, is it? Your duty is to those you lead. It's almost like the public servants we have. The politicians forget sometimes that they're public servants. They're there to lead lead us as citizens. You're the leader of the flock. That's your obligation to protect the flock. Do what's best interest of the flock. And if if you lead, then you'll get the results and the performance will come.

28:45 That's your duty. And you don't have to get It's not Don't get Don't don't confuse it. Don't get caught up in this. Your duty is to lead the people that are under you and have their back and they'll have your back. And you will earn their respect. Mhm. But you have to understand it sometimes you're going to have to make hard decisions. Because you're leading the team, the ship. That's your goal. It's like the great movie of Master and Commander.

29:13 His Majesty's ship and Russell Crowe gave a great illustration of being a leader. He had his friend who was a surgeon who was empathetic, but he had to say I had to make hard decisions. You know, my son works for us. I said to me in the other day we were on In fact, we were sitting a retreat about leadership. My son doesn't perform, he's going overboard. He's getting off the ship. You know, I'll still see my grandkids.

29:36 Mhm. But my got My obligation's to this firm. First and foremost. To the collective so we can carry out the mission for the clients. And by the way, don't No one gets a pat on the back for doing what they were supposed to do. Yeah, the standard is the standard. There's too much of that. Oh, you did what you did here. You're so great. No, I just did what I said I was going to do. I think that's a a great lesson. And I think that when people see that you like you said it's leading from the top and you're you're say if someone doesn't hit the KPI, they don't hit their and they're out and you're willing to do it, certainly the rest of the team, your VPs, your your supervising attorneys, managing attorneys, what have you. I I'd imagine that that passes down and they have the same standards. Yeah, it becomes part of your DNA. There's a lot of things that become part of your culture.

30:29 You know, I had yesterday in a meeting we were hiring bringing on probably taking this practice over and my my operator said, "Well, you know, he wants a 2-year guarantee of whatever." And I said, "I'll tell you what, you tell him I'll guarantee that if he gets his ass out of bed early in the morning and works really hard, he'll be fine. That's my guarantee.

31:00 You get at it, you work hard, you represent our our clients better than anybody else, you won't have a darn thing to worry about. And you know, our space is so great. People don't realize in Wall Street firms, they make a lot of money, but they're dissatisfied. All the studies show that. Public service they're satisfied because it's altruistic, etc. We blend both in the personal injury field. Cuz we blend helping people, being their champion, and making a very, very good living.

31:33 It's a very satisfying place to be. I agree. I agree. And and you're fighting for them for, you know, the just the the wrong that's been done to them, and it is a good feeling. I also like the one thing, you know, on my side, at least on the the injury side, not talking about the the billable hourly rate. I actually like that a lot of people that your pricing model's all the same, it's contingency. It's like on the agency side, I constantly have to think, well, am I going to price by hour, capacity, retainer, tiers, all these different models that go into it. It's like one of the things that you don't even have to think about. Now, it's like, okay, well, now I need to think about my my positioning and how I'm going to serve the client, who I'm going to help.

32:21 I I think that's one of the great things about the injur- industry as well. That's a great perspective, which I haven't heard. But it's a you know, sometimes we have to step back and understand that. That's a really great perspective. You're right. Yeah, I I got to constantly think like, am Am overcharging, undercharging? Am I get you know, like how many hours am I going to put into this? Well, this is like hey, I'm going to do contingency work and I'm going to get the maximum result I can. And so, it's like one of those things that you don't think about.

32:48 super excited to have you speak at Pimcon, Sam. You know, for our audience that's listening, that has questions, that wants to connect with you, wants to be a part of the case case exchange, just what's the best way to get in touch? They can they can drop me an email. That's pond at pondlehocky.com. That's my personal email. If they if they reach out to me, I will get back to them. So, we can we're more than happy to to in your audience to talk to anyone and see if we can help. Amazing. Sam, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it, Chris. Nice talking to you.

33:25 You too. Let that sink in. Seven figures a year from looking at cases two other firms completely rejected, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Today, Sam showed us exactly what it takes to treat your law firm like a highly sophisticated business. Whether it's defending against the rising threat of private equity, understanding the exact velocity of your capital, or building a B2B engine that monetizes 7,000 cases a month, it all comes down to operational excellence. You build the right infrastructure, you track the data, and suddenly you're building a fortress around your firm that outlasts any market shift. If you want to surround yourself with top-tier operators like Sam and get the exact strategies they're using at scale, you need to be in the room at Pimcon 2026. It's October 4th through 6th in Scottsdale, Arizona.

34:03 Commit to growth and get your tickets at pimcon.org. I'm Chris Dreyer. I'll see you in Scottsdale.