BrandBusters Ep. 19: Maggie Malek, CEO of Crispin

0:00 welcome to Brand Busters with your hosts James Schwin and sea Lee together we bust open the latest in cpg retail media and life or whatever the we want and for today's episode we got something special cooked up for you extra spicy take it away Sean welcome back everybody to the latest episode of brand Busters and we have a treat for you today we have somebody that I go way back with to

0:30 my days of launching the Zeo brand at PNG Ventures we have Maggie Malik who's the CEO of Crispen a stagwell group agency and chrisen is a full-service media and creative and digital marketing agency that works with clients like Nike Target and PNG never heard of those three Maggie spent six years in the Army and got her degree at the University of Houston Go Big 12 and Maggie played an integral role of launching the Zeo brand with me when we

0:56 were when she was at the Mi MMI agency from what I've seen observing Maggie she's an inspiring leader in a creative Problem Solver who I've observed firsthand in her clients and her people seem to be fiercely loyal to her so very very glad to have you on Maggie thanks for joining the Pod no problem this gonna be fun yeah it's it's great so you're to to be honest you're the first agency person that we've had on we've

1:21 we've honestly been targeting people who are either leading marketing or founded small consumer goods brand so excited to have an agency lens to everything but one of the things that I think is fascinating about your journey and your story is how did you go from being in the Army to editing at barstol magazine in in Houston to Leading a large Global creative agency I think your journey can be inspiring to to Founders or aspiring kind of brand and agency people any

1:50 everywhere out there yeah no I think that's a really good question and it is an interesting question I was talking to somebody yesterday and I was telling them about how like I never grew up and thought I would be a CEO like my path has definitely been untraditional I always love doing really amazing work with really amazing people so I joined the military right after 911 my family's military and I always loved and wanted to like be a part of

2:18 something bigger and so fun fact it was actually either the Peace Corp or the military I went to military route so two very different things it was just again for me a part of being something bigger from there I realize like I deeply love people I deeply love working on a team I think that teams when they have a shared Mission can be like super successful in a lot of different ways I went to journalism and Comm school at

2:47 University of Houston so that's how I got into writing barcal magazine is actually not the barcal magazine that we all know and love from the internet I was I was going to ask about that it was a again dating myself it was a written publication in Houston Texas that we would go pass out at bars to tell about other bars so remember when you would walk into a bar 20 years ago and there were like the Zen in the front

3:13 so BARC magazine so I was the editor and I and I wrote for them I got and that's kind of how I got started in even social and Community Building I started working at a tech startup in Houston so a lot of people don't know that both WordPress and another company teex startup both started in Houston so I worked for the WordPress competitor and it was a really fun time in technology I was running I was the EA

3:41 for the CEO and I was doing agency coms like again like what am I doing here but that's how I got in the social I got hired at MMI as an account director the thing I always loved about my my agency and the thing I think Sean like why you and I have always gotten along so well is we really fostered this like entrepreneurial spirit and so I like wanted to do everything in the agency I wanted to learn about like how

4:07 do we make money from creativity like we charge people for like writing copy like it was so interesting and I I'd heard a Chrisman at that time but it wasn't again the agency World Maggie and I Maggie not I'm talking about myself in the third person my comms person at the agency at chrisen her name is Maggie also and we talk a lot about like how weird our jobs are but I wasn't as familiar with the agencies that they am

4:35 today and so yeah like it was a very untraditional path to Leading crisen you know I think you mentioned it's different to have a agency CEO on this call I actually think the most like the best case study and something I kind of want to talk about today is like even we just went through a major Rebrand as krisen yeah so it is a it's a world famous agency but we've also changed a lot and we take an entrepreneur and

4:58 founder mindset to it and those things that you said at the beginning again like that test and learn mindset no matter what company you're at startup cpg or agency I just feel so strongly that you have to keep those things in mind in today's crazy marketing landscape yeah no and I think for for context for for listeners out there when when megie and I started working together MMI was really a you're kind of a local Houston based agency that

5:26 started branching into more Global stuff I was at PNG at the time and I was desperately trying to fire my New York agency that was charging me like $10,000 a month for like three Facebook videos that didn't follow any best practices and I needed them to perform so I hired Maggie and the MMI team and they were basically like yeah we can if you can help us get get on the roster we can crank out a ton of content for you and

5:48 and test and learn and be there and in kind of the way that was happening in the mid-20s you needed high volume of content AB testing seeing what would drive like the lowest costs per acquisition and what would perform the best and I think I don't even know if you guys that was like your core competency at the time but Maggie and team just jumped in was like yeah we'll figure it out with you and and we kind

6:07 of just did it together and and and that's what I've always enjoyed about MMI and and presumably now stagwell like that same spirit that you guys have held held true yeah I think that I'm like the fact that you just said the mid-2010s I have to go think about my life but somebody I'm gonna I'm gonna go jump out this window it was fine somebody on a call recently said like yeah this was cool in the late 1900s and

6:34 I was like I can't with this conversation no I think the the thing that we had at MMI was that that really business Problem Solver mindset we really focused on what is the thing that the brand is trying to accomplish and how do we do that through media social and creativity so I would say that was our core competency fast forward to to why this makes sense for krisen is krisen has always been krispin's been around since

7:05 1965 so it got famous in the early 2000s but fun fact chrisen was also started by a veteran Sam kisen they have they're like we call ourselves like the OG business problem solvers if you think about some of the early work that chrisen did in the early 2000s before the mid-20s god the truth work about tobacco the Burger King work all of that was based on how do we what is the problem a brand is trying to solve and then how do we use

7:37 social media creativity to solve it and like get people talking a ton yeah so the combination of chrisen and MMI and then another agency called Observatory that does branded entertainment was really to help CMOS solve this modern business problem of like we still need to get Scrappy we still need to connect media and creativity and the thing that I also think it's special about chrisen is Chrisman was founded in Miami then it

8:08 was in Boulder MMI was in Houston so we have New York and La representation big teams we also have a huge team in Houston and I think the the diversity of where we are located and backgrounds and skill sets really help keep that through C been Spirit Alive but what you loved about working with us was like we can do transactional learning experiments we can get our hands dirty and we don't need to spend a

8:39 billion dollars to do it yeah yeah that's great and kind of going off this I I feel like especially in marketing agency life now even more so postco you're seeing s and tenure like two to four years you're seeing a lot of turnover both brand and agency side you're kind of this exception I love that concept concept of like entrepreneur for listeners how would you advise you know people that maybe earlier in their career how can they

9:06 apply that philosophy to their organization and on the flip side of that how do you think organizations can better foster that to encourage retention and drive culture which is such kind of a secret sauce component of the agency world yeah so Chrisman I will say is weird and it's something I'm actually like pretty proud of it's something that is again similar and where I come from our average employee tenure is six to seven years that's great and our our

9:36 client tenure is also really really long and the thing that I would say to encourage that entrepreneur spirit and I I say this like people have heard me say this on calls I I have all hands meeting later today and I will say this my prayer and hope is that the next CEO of chrisen sits at chrisen right now like I want to teach people and I like mean that genuinely because I we had a pitch call this morning and I

10:04 said like the people on this chrisen leadership team didn't start this agency to sell it we are all promoted passionate Executives who are experts in our craft and we happen to be leaders today but we did not start out that way we had people that poured into us like Cindy Maran Sean you met her the founder of MMI she taught me the business of creativity like we spend so much time on that in chrisen we actually had a call earlier today James

10:35 and we were talking about okay so hybrid world is weird we've got in-person people we've got remote people so one of the things we're going to be working on soon is like how do we create more of a program for new employees to just rotate shadowing on calls so one of the the challenges with hybrid world is we've all seen that sometimes there are too many people on a call so how do we make sure that the only people on the

11:01 call are like the necessary parties that are briefed in so then you have space for newer employees both tenor wise and Junior wise to join calls and listen because like again like sea I think this is like such like baby us earlier in our careers like we got to do really cool things at really young ages that like very much propelled us and it was because people trusted us and people let us watch Let us watch them I agree I

11:33 agree and I think that's incred that answer it does it does and I think it's just something that it's such a shift I hate to like go back to co and reference that right but I think the ability to be an entrepreneur and like spend you know go in on weekends or do like the late night pitch prep and like the happy hours and just the things that would Foster that kind of culture and excitement now in a desparate and

11:55 fragmented like work environment it's hard to do so I love the fact that you're kind of leading the charge and taking actionable steps like how can we expose our employees to other facets of the business so that they can learn and feel like they're valued and contribute more so I think that's a great pragmatic way to to apply that because I think especially in agencies you're the culture aside from the strategy is very much the secret sauce so I think

12:19 stoking those fires that type of stuff oozes out and pitches there's the actual pitch itself there's the proposal what have you but they can feel what teams are connected and that can shines through subconsciously versus what is just presented obviously in front of them so I think that's a great answer and love loved hearing that yeah I think the I think the other thing that you said that is probably really important for anybody listening especially if

12:40 you're more Junior in your career is just take the initiative try to be the entrepreneur like if you go if you're a small company go to the founder and say can I learn this can I sit in in this meeting can I take on this responsibility oftentimes like I have a very small company of like less than 20 people the answer is yes like if somebody wants to step up and do stuff like I'm not going to say no and I'm

12:59 probably GNA give them a huge Runway to go figure it out and and if they mess up they'll learn from it and and we'll go from there but I think that's whether you're an agency a brand a big company just willing being willing to learn those things and put yourself out there are probably some of the most important things and I think you've done that in your career Maggie and at least at MMI it seemed like a lot of people were

13:19 willing to step out of their comfort zone and and take ownership of things that may not have been exactly on their work plan I think the other thing we're trying to do do a lot more of and I would be curious how other like cpg brands do this too again because I think there's so much to learn from across is like one of the things we're trying to be more regular about is I feel like sometimes we forget

13:47 that we didn't all start on the same day and so we do like regular what we call capabilities presentations and then practice presentations that I would say they're not like my words because it's Friday they're not set it and forget it like they change but we do them once a quarter so like the media team does a presentation every single quarter the creative team does a presentation to the whole agency every single quarter as we update the capabilities presentation we

14:19 do it for everybody every quarter and those like drum beats of also you get time with me the head of media that the CCO it also is like attractive to employees but it helps with like that ongoing reminder that like company education does not just happen during onboarding it doesn't just happen you know when we're setting our budgets in October like you've got to be a little bit methodical and I would say like

14:50 maniacal sometimes about it where like you're like this is the thing that we do every quarter to remind people our True North in this area area I think I think a lot of companies forget how important that is yeah I agree with that wholeheartedly one thing that I think you've worked with a lot of big companies like the targets the Nikes the Proctor and gambles the world you've also worked with kind of smaller startups within those companies or

15:17 smaller more upstart Brands what advice or what are some of the things that you've seen that have worked that startups could learn from big companies and vice versa big companies could learn from the the small smaller Brands in in the digital marketing space and and and kind of trial and awareness space it's funny I always remind the team that we're 180 person startup like I use that language all the time because a lot of time I I find that it has

15:48 people put their shoulders down I'm learning so much from running this agency starting it back up again again if you Google Chrisman and cpb will see like we had you know there's a rough little time out there but I just like really feel like it applies to so many different companies so a the takeaways I would say is like testing and learning constantly you have to have consistent Innovation to find work that works for you that might be creative you

16:19 put out in the world media you test but also internal tools that's really big we have this like everyone is a creator maker mentality in the agency as well if you think about creativity 30 years ago it was like the creatives were the celebrities in the agency world right but now again either at a cpg startup or a brand or an agency good ideas can come from everywhere like we are all creators and

16:51 creatives today so how do you Foster that environment in your company where people can like Sean or James bring up ideas to y'all even if it might be a little bit different than what you're thinking it might be amazing and then I do feel like you have to give people a really really strong sense of purpose again no matter what the company size is that is something I felt like was a big takeaway for me from the military is

17:15 like we had this thing called Commander intent and everybody may have their individual jobs to do and everybody felt like they were contributing but we all had like a shared purpose so for us we talk a lot about like our overarching like thing that gets us up in the morning is like we want to leave the advertising World better than we found it and that doesn't mean only like doing nonprofit work and only winning awards that means like we want to treat each

17:43 other differently we want to do ads that are good we don't want to waste clients money all of that and I and I find that like shared internal purpose like we don't use that language externally but that shared internal purpose like it gives people a reason to to get up in the morning and like be excited when it is like maybe a more boring day like Sean like I'm packing boxes all morning or I'm doing it's it's for a reason even

18:10 if today is like not the sexiest day of my job yeah I agree like for me it's like you just you're like you know what I was packing boxes for a fast growing DDC brand that the founder was on our podcast so I'm helping you know them grow their brand and and and grow their reach and the more box as we send out the better their marketing and D Toc is going so you know it's it's something

18:32 that gets you excited in the world or in the day even if it's not what you woke up thinking you were going to do yes but also that too like that's what makes our jobs exciting you know like I like days that are May different than what I thought it was going to be what I was going to be doing yeah I wholeheartedly agree so in the kind of agency ecosystem I mean I think it's notorious a lot of

18:56 consolidation especially over the the last few years years right and I think you're one of the few individuals that we I think the only individual we've had on the podcast that's kind of been through a merger acquisition type of scenario obviously very exciting opportunity for companies but sometimes depending where you are in the organization can be very scary so I guess from what you can share I mean talk about that type of experience and how can orgs be you know optimistic and

19:21 look at that as a great opportunity to kind of Trek forward and why I can open up so many new innovation opportunities because I think sometimes people like the floor starts shaking they get concerned whereas actually can be a great Catalyst for the agency and the client base as well that's a great question and so again my my comm's partner whose name is also Maggie we have been through a lot I would say in the last several years

19:47 when we were at MMI we had a merger with a company called media kitchen most recently we brought together three different cultures under the amazing Chrisman Banner that James exactly what you said is like people do feel unsettled and everybody is so passionate about where they came from and what it is that they did before that I would say the first year of this merger was really spent listening learning and understanding

20:19 like where everyone is coming from we were very clear in the beginning with this merger that like no one's coming in like a wrecking ball no one is perfectly perfect and right the reason we are doing this convers U combination is because modern marketers and modern CMOS need both brand awareness and they need performance they need brand entertainment they need data they need social we need to connect all of those things together and so we were

20:51 really clear with everything that that was the reason we were going forward even if you think about the reason we picked the Chrisman brand is I came from MMI that agency is my baby it was a 16-year love affair it was hard right but okay what do we need to be successful in the market people know crisen as this innovative business Problem Solver brand so together we're

21:21 all GNA get behind the crisen name we're going to Sunset Legacy names that that no no longer serve us we now have four doors to bring clients in so we're bringing clients in who want to find a media partner we're bringing clients in who want creative who want branded entertainment and who want social so we have more opportunities to bring amazing work in for our people than ever before we also have a lot of folks who have

21:50 switched departments in this merger like okay you come from the creative team at Legacy company x what you're actually passionate about is production or project management how do we move you over here I would also say that HR having amazing HR partners and collaborators and Educators is a huge part of this process in that you need people to understand that they like have

22:21 a safe place to go I would also say like for Founders going through something like this and I use my experience as like as an important one because like again I set down a brand that I loved to to do this merger you really do have to be open to the ideas from everywhere and you have to be like really deeply authentic about it and you have to acknowledge that like again we are doing this because there are good things about

22:48 each of these organizations that can make each other better and if you're not adopting anything from the old company that you've absorbed again whether it's a product or a new process or something then I feel like you almost like kill the point of doing a merger you kill the point of doing an acquisition like so I think that that those are the big things that we did the importance of communications the importance of making sure that everyone feels like they know

23:15 what we're doing and they're bought in but then also I will say like once you're like okay we got a mission it's time to move this is where we're going if you are not interested in being a part of this new team that's also okay you know and like I think one of the things again our HR team is like so excellent about is like how do we make sure that like everybody feels awesome and during their time here they're

23:39 pumped about it and like people leaving doesn't have to be a bad thing you know like you can both go on and do something different I mean the thing that's crazy too is even since the merger we have so many crisen boomerangs people that were like this might this seems kind of weird I'm out and like even six months later they're like actually we would love to do this so yeah like so I think again that like important culture and in

24:02 supporting of people like people can feel it people know when you're faking and yeah they they are not interested in that yeah and I think whether it's the merger or kind of agency culture like from what I what I've observed is and I think the Testament like we've known each other for quite some time is is people it seems like loyalty especially in the consumer goods space is pretty big and whether it's the agency world how do you how important is kind

24:34 of that loyalty that you build with people in relationships whether it's clients that may Boomerang back or or move and and bring business over to you or employees that may you know Boomerang back how do you think about just building those long-term relationships and what I perceive is you know there's a lot of loyalty and feelings in the agency in in digital marketing world I mean y'all on inside too I think there that strong sense of purpose applies

25:02 again like what it is that we're doing that is huge I think for brand consumer relationships as well but I think even talking about like that idea we were discussing a little bit earlier about how do you Mentor people you never know where somebody is gonna go like Sean you like have gone on a completely different Journey than most not what I would have thought than most PNG people right and I would say also like me too

25:27 and so you never know where people are going to end up and like I think just always following your true north and your company's true north and like being really authentic about it is what Fosters that like loyalty I think even with like Brands right like cpg Brands you think about like liquid death they're so wild and weird but like they have such a cult following because they are unapologetically who they are at all

25:57 times and think that brands that have that purpose also Inspire loyalty from their employees but also from consumers too yeah I completely agree and kind of talking about the culture piece with with agencies and and with Brands we have a lot of smaller brands that listen to the podcast or Founders that may be looking for their first agency maybe they're using contractors or Freelancers right now one of the problems that I see a lot is I'm talking to people or

26:24 Consulting with people is a smaller brand might reach for an agency that might not be the perfect fit for them it might be tooo high of a budget expectations aren't aligned and then it happens and then everybody's frustrated what advice would you have for for smaller or emerging Brands is they're looking for an agency that's right for them at this time and on the agency side how do you know if you're talking to somebody that's not a

26:49 fit because really I think for the magic to happen it's got to be a fit for both sides yeah I think that's a great question and I again like this goes back to our history together CU like we've really grown together too I know it's like weird to talk about money so fast but I think the biggest challenge is if if budgets are like totally off and misaligned then that is where things get I would say like can

27:18 get screwy really fast so we have a process and it is budget Authority need timing we call it the bant so when somebody comes to us the first thing we ask is like what is your budget and we know thresholds for like okay if it is Performance Marketing we know that we're going to have to do this in terms of reporting and so this is what we're going to want to do in terms of creative and this is what the meeting CAD Cadence

27:47 look like looks like and so we are too big for certain size Brands there are and you mentioned MMI back in the day we were a wonderful fit for like local local businesses smaller Brands if you're looking for an agency you need to be really really clear on like what is your budget and then you need to make sure that that agency is right for you from a people and chemistry perspective like I would say

28:18 again so where I like kind of have a chip on my shoulder like don't get glitzed and glamed as a small company by agency logos there are a lot of really good small agencies that are very good in local markets and also at more National things that are really good fits for startups I would also say if you are a startup looking to scale exposing your business plan to the agency could also help so when I think about like

28:50 that bant process I was talking about if a startup were to come to us and say Here's how maybe we co-create value and like here is growth plan together then we might ignore the budget and still decide to partner because we're going to we're going to grow together because we deeply understand the business challenges we understand it is what you're facing so I think that that like being very clear on what you need what your budget is and what your road

29:17 map looks like and then again people in chemistry like do your values align that's important too because there are also again and I I'm a huge believer in agencies I think agencies what we do is very very important we work with a lot of inner inner company teams too like Sean you know like where the team inside is doing a lot you you've got to make sure you trust each other and your values align yeah I yeah I agree wholeheartedly

29:44 with all those all those things I think it's great advice for Founders looking to either for their first agency or maybe stepping up or leveling up to a a slightly bigger agency and I think on the flip side of that Sean and I once upon a time work together at an agency I think aligning it's that's just as important on the agency side for client acquisition strategy in terms of it's very hard when you're incentivized to

30:07 hit certain growth goals but understanding like who's a True Fit and that might mean turning down certain business and missing certain targets and goals by the end of the day you're serving that potential brand and actually your agency better in the long run and that could come back around like you said you never know people don't last people change environments they Boomerang so I think if you set that precedent and kind of that relational deposit the right way

30:30 initially that can come back maybe call Karma Universe god what have you but it can come back and I think make sure everyone's dialed in on what we do at what you know what staying in our lane versus kind of taking on nuisance Revenue which is going to create frustration on both sides oh yeah and like we I think this is where like learnings are important like I would say during the pandemic we did have a period

30:55 of time where we're like whatever like just take everything it'll be fine like we need it and we we were all on that boat I think during the pandemic and yeah like later it was like it never worked well everyone was upset on the client side and our side and so it's just like not always worth it I also feel like one of the things too I've seen a lot in pitches is we might ultimately like go separate ways at the

31:20 end too but like I've stayed close friends with people that we've pitched more than I think I ever have before too in the last two years which has been really interesting interesting where it's like okay like it might not work out right now but like let's still call each other for advice and the other thing I will say too that's wild and this is probably for bigger companies but I would also say like giving this advice to Founders is like things are

31:44 more purchasing driven decisions are more purchasing driven I would say than they have ever been before and if you're a Founder like you should be making the decision not your CFO your CFO is your partner and like y'all to like ride or die together and like be be each other's back but like you still at the end of the day need to make what you believe is the best decision for your company and that's where we've

32:12 seen like we might lose a piece of business because purchasing made a decision but later it's the CMO coming back to say like okay yeah let's try this yep yeah go ahead Sean I feel like you you had something you're going to weigh in on yeah I mean I think it goes back to the point we've been talking about this entire episode which is the relationship piece I think building those long-term relationships and and you know if you can save a small amount

32:39 of money through the purchasing department but you go with somebody that may not be the right fit or you don't feel great about the relationship or the chemistry like spend the little bit of extra money if it's pretty apples the apples to go with a person who you think is going to be the best fit and don't always make it just an accounting and spreadsheet decision because I feel like that's when a lot of people get into

33:00 trouble yeah yeah I age and one my f favorite things you said this episode The co- value or the co-creation of value I think if you show your cards I think so many times we try to keep them close to our chest we're worried they'll be used against us I think if you're an emerging brand trying to identify an agency that might be a little bit more Upstream just be transparent about that listen like this is what we can do right

33:19 now this is where we think we can go and equip that agency to make an educated decision because they might lean in with you but if you hold back you both are going to miss out on the opportunity so I think just have those candid and hard conversations and the hard conversations don't always have to be hard conflict is a bridge to connection it doesn't have to be this volatile thing or this ego- driven thing so I guess encouragement

33:40 again for the emerging brands are on the cusp of kind of taking that step up with a larger agency I love that oh you just said something that like I will say like would spark me to if your listeners are looking for an agency one of the things that we are really excited about and looking for are businesses who a want an agency that are serial truth tellers but like we are looking for brands that will

34:10 like let us get wild with them and not do dumb creativity just to do dumb creativity but where we are true partners and then we can get on stage and like talk about it together because I think one of the the things that's what small businesses need and that's what agencies even larger agencies like chisen are yearning for because a lot of our clients like you've mentioned our Client List Sean knows this we're not allowed to talk about the work that we

34:36 do for any of those clients so like we're we can talk about them in pitches but like we would love clients who are like hey I'm a new beard oil brand and I've seen some of the stuff that you've done let's go in this together and like let's get creative about how we both have control and partnership in the outcomes and that's I think a it's like a little bit of a scary conversation for a Founder it's a scary conversation for

35:05 a CEO too but like for a Founder like you're giving away some of that like that's what I loved about like Sean the work we got to do with Zeo is like Sean let us brag about it in Partnership all over the walls of PNG I think what we would love is like smaller startup Brands who are not publicly traded who want to partner and do really cool Innovative things and who will like again maybe like our Rider dies to go

35:29 like speak it South by Southwest together about how we use beard oil to Bro break the internet I don't know so that is one thing James that you just said like just sparked of like that that is a way to get bigger agencies excited is if you like give them give them some partnership yeah I was goingon to say like in is this something not just you but like agent larger agencies if somebody came to you and said hey here's

35:53 my business plan we're growing pretty well I don't have a lot of money right now but we could partner together and you guys can have pretty much like free creative Reign to do really cool stuff like would you is is that something that's appealing to a a larger agency because then like you said you can get the case study most likely that founder is going to be willing to be on stage with you because a lot almost every

36:14 founder we've interviewed here the they have a large presence like the founder is almost kind of a part of the brand that's the trend that we're seeing so I think that it's an interesting tidbit because hey I might not be able to compensate you the way that a Target or PNG could but I could give you guys some really fun creative control to do your best work and then you can go likely win more business from the pgs of the world once

36:36 they see that work yeah no what I I would be I mean so not every agency CEO is gonna say this but like I would say that right like I think Sean like one of the cool things like again back in the day it's like okay well do we get paid based on how well the brand performs but again that goes with like you give us creative freedom but we have to know like if things are in stock like how do

36:59 we have visibility into you know all of that road map like that is where like I would love an upand cominging brand to come to us and say like yeah let's do this we will both be honest about Staffing costs numbers where things are going and like as as we grow our retainer with you will grow and we will talk about it publicly and we will that's where that's where I think there that like those conversations never in end up

37:28 going the way that I would like them to go is the smaller brands are not necessarily able to or comfortable saying like oh yeah like I'll give you you know for every dollar 10% of the profit if we do this together and I'll give you freedom and I'll make sure you know that like when out of stocks are happening so but that is like definitely a conversation certain agencies would be like jazz to have yeah so going back to your favorite era

37:56 of the mid2 we saw DC as a channel Google Facebook YouTube really kind of emerging as that Premier Performance Marketing Channel and Outlet where do you see the trend being for the next five to 10 years we know video is very big right now retail media is very big what are the the channels and mediums as you're thinking about marketing mix or media mix for your client base like if if brand need a hedge Heder bets right now

38:22 where are you trying to double down yeah I mean you said retail media that is definitely the next Frontier and we're already seeing a ton of our cpgs moving away from DC and investing there so we know that Amazon Target Walmart and then Albertson's Kroger they're all making massive strides in that area I think their Partnerships that they have with the social networks is really really interesting you know I think the biggest challenge and this is not a new thing

38:53 but is the adding more closed wall EOS systems to the marketing mix like our again 2010's challenge even with just Amazon was God like we cannot get any data here and so we're trying to make smart decisions across you know the whole marketing mix and it it makes it difficult so that's something that we're nervous about but I do feel like the solution is how do we think about the

39:24 full funnel right like I think startups can get not just startups y'all even big dtoc brands are so hooked on the performance drug like you get so hooked on it that you then forget to fill the funnel so how do we make sure that we have full funnel Marketing Act Like activities that are they're are leveraging retail media networks but then also making sure that we're upleveling our Analytics

39:57 thinking about all of that together I think is is really really big so that's how I've been thinking about it Beyond retail media are there any channels like obviously Tik Tok seems to be be the rage right now are there any other channels that you think could could emerge to be the next what Facebook was in you know 2013 so the one that I think is like slept on a lot like obviously Tik Tok and Instagram everyone's trying to

40:25 figure that out Tik Tok shops Pinterest I feel like is extremely slept on Pinterest especially for women is and Jin z we're talking to this about clients right now is still a huge discovery engine one of the trends that we're seeing is like Jen Z there's so much Social in your face right and a lot of it is negative that Pinterest is this place you go to like dream Pinterest has this new AI tool and they're looking for Brands to do and

40:57 betas with so like if I am searching for something then it will start selecting other things that you might be interested based on that the reason I always like kind of IM hesitant on answering this question is like social and the channels are changing so quickly that to me the next Frontier is like curiosity and the next Frontier is like being really really open I mean we don't know what's going to happen to Tik Tok right everything 15

41:27 minutes the government's like we're going to shut that down we thought cookies was a whole thing that we talked about for five years and then like it ended up not mattering so not mattering as much so I would say just like creating a as as your brands are picking agencies too making sure they're picking an agency that has flexibility within the budget and isn't going to overcommit to any one place so that then you can experiment like if Pinterest again if

41:56 you're like a very visual brand that sells lamps you 100% should be on Pinterest I don't know if you should invest all your time in Tik Tok so I think it's like being in the right place for like what it is you're trying to do is where I think a lot about yeah that's great that's great no this has been a wonderful conversation I think one thing we like to ask everybody as we're as we're winding down is is kind of a non-work

42:24 related question so obviously you have a crazy career and personal life how do you decompress outside of work and and stay sane I know you're a I don't know if you still are but you were a Pokemon go fanatic and you like to lift weights and have your home gym with your dogs but what what keeps you saying and how do you keep it all together with all the things you have going on rattling around your brain so I still play

42:48 Pokemon it is the best I'm 40 and I'm everyone's cool aunt because I have caught them all the thing I would that has been big for me in the last two years is actually yoga and like I'm a highly aggressive highly competitive weightlifting person similar to you and I need to make my brain quiet and so like yoga has been really really good for me I also feel like a

43:19 bedtime routine has become really important to me not to make this about life choices but like I stopped drinking drinking a while ago and it was because it was impacting my sleep and the world is stressful and our jobs are stressful and if you work in a startup it's stressful and you have like so much cortisol in your system doing things that like force you to slow down are really really important and eliminating things from your life that you think may

43:52 make it better in the moment but then affect you for 48 and 7 hours are actually not serving you so again not to make this like super hippie dippy but like I feel like making Life Choices related to slowing down yoga having routines I enforce like y'all no one's going to die after 7 P.M I'm gonna turn my computer off if if something is an emergency they will call my cell phone like you have to give yourself space

44:21 that's the only way you can be a good leader if you are not filling up your cup you're acting like a psychopath on teams I assure you I have done it like so I just think like forcing ourselves to slow down is really important yeah I think that's great I mean I used to I used to run a ton and that was like because your body your body's moving so like you're basically just alone with your thoughts and in in

44:46 your brain as I get older I was harder on my body I was probably causing more cortisol from all the running I was doing but I've I guess weightlifting is kind of that way for me I like to sit in the sauna again another thing that a stressor but it kind of keeps your mind mind quiet while everything else is is going on around you but yeah too that's fantastic advice any follows on that James no I

45:11 I think the fact you know that you're sharing that and open with that I love that I think there are you know certain organizations and cultur sometimes where there's like hey it's just kind of like hustle porn culture and that's not sustainable right like you're going to burn out you might be able to do that in your early 20s but as you progress through your career and have more demands it might not be as much of a grind dayto day but you're

45:33 caring and burying more of the stress you have payroll you have a balance sheet you have all these you have investors you have all these things that you have it's very weighty and you're just going to you know bleed yourself dry if you keep running at so I love that like transparency and again there's nothing wrong with working hard and pushing yourself but it's also like with the boundaries I think sometimes you Superior work or results actually if

45:55 you put those barriers up because you're going to be so much more dialed in during that time so again just appreciate you being open like that and I think encouraging that approach because I think sometimes people have that opposite mindset of oh if I don't do this like my quality of work or I'm not gonna be respected like no you're gon bring so much more of yourself into everything you do I think the other really interesting thing too is like

46:16 just being open about like not not drinking I drink probably 95% less than I than I have in in my life just because I I can't my kids are going to be up at 6:00 a.m. I have to be up and I have to be on and you know if you get a bad night's sleep you're you might have two bad days after that so I I don't think it's a conscious Choice it's just through like I have to do it to survive

46:38 but I think just as a society too like giving people more permission to do that and to choose other outlets like a yoga weightlifting a running or whatever relaxes you to to quiet your brain as opposed to going to a happy hour having a glass of wine right before bed I think it's not talked about enough and I think it can have a profound well I think the thing too like thinking about like how you grow in your career

47:01 and you stay sharp I am so much better at industry events because I'm one of the people there that is not having as much of a party so like I'm like super dialed in and like I like Can is a big one for our industry I love it it's like it and I this is the second year I've done it sober and it was like I'm like Maggie not me Maggie other Maggie what are we doing this morning like I

47:25 like have endless energy and less anxiety than I had when I would do things like that and like you know be coming in the next morning like not feeling great you know yeah absolutely AB you can still go out you can still go to the happy hours you can still do all the things like I have a rule I'm like once I've heard the same story three times from the same person is time for me to go to bed yeah absolutely it's

47:50 good just to you know call it and then and then stay fresh for the the next day at those industry events well no Megan this has been this has been fantastic I really appreciate you coming on obviously we're branching out with our our first agency person on the on the show but hopefully all of our guest found some great nuggets of advice I know I did around kind of brand inter agency interactions and just really how

48:11 to think about you know being creative and and in problem solving whether you're a small brand or a large brand so appreciate the time and thank you for joining if anybody's interested you can follow Maggie on Twitter which I guess is now X friend her on LinkedIn do the same for James and I and then for us go follow us on YouTube follow us on Spotify wherever you get your podcast it helps our analytics and helps us stay

48:36 relevant in different search engines and if you found value from this today please share it with your colleagues and friends all right thank you everybody