Dating Doctor on How to Vet and Maintain Relationships - Orion Taraban

0:00 Orion Taraban is a clinical psychologist and runs the YouTube channel Psych Hacks. He's one of the biggest voices in the dating and relationship space, and today we're going to be talking about vetting and maintaining long-term relationships. Thanks for being back on the show. >> Great to be back, Dr. Swole. Happy to be here. >> So, I want to start off talking about long-term relationships and marriage. You talked about good relationships being boring. Tell us about that.

0:25 >> Sure. Well, for a long-term relationship, you kind of want somebody who's trustworthy, who's predictable, who's transparent, who's secure, who's emotionally stable and mature. And all those things sound good when you're flipping through Instagram and you're reading these posts from psychology accounts, this is what you should look for in a partner. And that's certainly true. The issue is that that same kind of stability and peace that comes from a long-term relationship with a person who has those attributes is often experienced as boring by people who still have an element of immaturity or an unhealed wound inside of them. And I don't think it's really black and white. It's not one or the other. People aren't just mature or immature. I think there is an admixture of maturity and immaturity in most people in different proportions.

1:14 And so, this is really important. It's not really possible to have a stable, loving, long-term relationship even if you found a woman who is capable of having that type of relationship if you haven't yet arrived at the level of maturity that can see that boredom as peace. >> Mhm. >> But in general, with respect to vetting, how you approach a a candidate differs depending on your goals. So, as I talk about in the book, if you're looking for just a short-term relationship, a casual relationship, it's better to err on the side of being too bold. that tends to win the day, and especially if you have a time-limited engagement, you kind of have to make your move. However, if you're vetting for a a relationship, it's generally better to err on the side of being too boring. And if women don't see the appeal, or it's not as exciting, or they want more romance and razzle-dazzle, that's probably not somebody that you can have a sustainable long-term relationship with because it's just not possible to keep up the song and dance perpetually.

2:17 >> Mhm. Yeah, I think a lot of guys go wrong in particular because they feel that in the dating process they are trying to be them be someone that they're not, and they're trying to impress a girl, excite the girl, but that might not be representative of the long term. >> Well, that's interesting. So, it brings us back to that old piece of advice, which is just be yourself. And I've come to the conclusion that just be yourself is both the best and worst advice that you can give a guy.

2:44 It just depends on what stage of life he's in. So, on some level I'm sure you've seen this progression before. We all kind of start out as unconsciously incompetent, and then we're conscious of our incompetence. That's generally because we experience pain and disappointment and failure, and we realize that we're not good enough in certain ways, and we're sitting with that, and it feels really bad. But, if we don't want to fall into hopelessness, we then move into conscious competence, where we're working really hard to become the person we want to be. This is where it can feel fraudulent. This is where you can feel like an impostor, that you're pretending, or that you're faking it. But, that's how you gain any kind of real skill in the world, like learning a language. There's going to be a time where you have to consciously think of every word that comes out of your mouth, the conjugation, the grammar. It's really hard. You're going to make a bunch of mistakes. People are going to recognize that you're not a native speaker. But, if you stick with it long enough, you move into the fourth phase, which is unconscious competence, where the fluency just comes out, right?

3:43 That's where it's the best idea to just be yourself. If you tell a person in the first stage or two to just be yourself, well, that's probably not true. Like, it's if you you have to look around and be honest. If you're not getting the results that you want in your life, it's probably not a good idea to just stick with what you got, right? And that is based on money, friends, women, just your lifestyle in general. If you don't like the results that you're getting, the outcomes you're getting, you may have to level up. You may have to change in significant ways potentially. So just being yourself in that process of becoming is probably not the best advice. You actually have to try to be the person you want to become. You have to try to be the person you want to become. And for some months or even some years, it can feel like you're wearing a costume. But eventually if you wear it long enough, it just becomes who you are, and then it's just sort of an unconscious fluency because you're the guy who leveled up. You're not trying effortfully or consciously anymore. And then it's the best idea to just be yourself because it's working, right?

4:43 Why do you have to If it ain't broke, don't fix it kind of a thing. >> Yeah, I think that's tricky because sometimes you have to look at who's giving the advice and you'll see people online talking about just being yourself and I don't think about any of this stuff. I don't think about dating or improving myself, but they started out being very good-looking, charismatic, or all these other traits that just happened to work out for them. And for them, in a lot of the cases, they're unconsciously competent. They are doing the thing without >> That's certainly true. And there's also some pushback from women online, which is basically like either you got it, guys, or you don't. Like you can't learn to be more attractive, you can't learn game, that's an ick, it's a try-hard, and we can see through that. And it's like probably a lot of women can see through inauthentic confidence. But how else does a guy get confident? Like even the high school quarterback started out as an unconfident middle school, you know, second-string guy. So it's like everybody has a progression towards competence and confidence.

5:42 And if a woman meets you too early on, yeah, it might be visible, your effort, which I can understand might be less attractive from her perspective. But, she kind of has to make peace with the fact that that's the nest That's how the sausage is made, you know? It's like that's the process by which men become attractive and competent. It's not They don't just come into this world and they know what to say and what to do.

6:04 >> Mhm. And then coming back to the excitement-boring continuum, once you talked about good relationships being like tea over rice, could you tell us about that? >> Sure, that is a metaphor that I stole from an old movie by Yasujirō Ozu, who's one of my favorite film directors. He filmed almost I think over 60 movies. Some of them are the most critically acclaimed of all time, like Tokyo Story. And there's this lesser-known one called Green Tea over rice. And it's the story of a marriage in conflict, a husband and a wife. They're constantly always fighting. The guy is kind of showing up, he's patient, he's loving, but the woman is being very difficult. She is bored, she leaves, she nags, she complains, she wishes that she had that husband or that guy. And the guy just sort of like patiently kind of takes it and and loves her. Until eventually she has some sort of epiphany, and she realizes that love is actually not this excitement, it's not this drama, it's not this passion. It's somebody who like quietly supports you, who's constant and loyal, who cares about you. And then she kind of has a realization that wow, she kind of lucked out with the husband that she's got. And the final scene is where they go into the kitchen, which she hadn't been in the entire movie. And the kitchen is symbolizing like the heart of the home and the core of the relationship. And they make a meal together, and it's a very simple meal.

7:30 It's like a comfort meal in Japan, where it's just rice with green tea on top of it. Something like your grandma would make you if you were sick or something. >> Mhm. >> And the idea here is that that's what a good marriage is. It's not flashy. It's not full of like exotic flavors. It's not something that requires a great deal of work. It's not culinary extravagant. It's like it's comfort food. It's something that you can easily make that kind of like warms you from the inside out. Like we all have those meals that that do that for us. And that's kind of a good relationship. And maybe we shouldn't expect more from our marriages than that.

8:14 >> Mhm. >> If you want something flavorful or exotic, then you go out to a restaurant from time to time. But like that's going to be really hard to expect on your dinner table night after night after night. >> Yeah, I think that's difficult with the expectations people have nowadays and especially once they've been colored by something exciting and reminds me of a story of one of my friends who was dating a drug dealer at one point and she said, "Oh my goodness, it's so much fun. We go to his place and there's cash all over the place and he's taking me all these trips and we go on shopping sprees.

8:49 And then she contrasts it to her next boyfriend who's just a regular guy and she's like, "Oh, it's kind of boring. He treats me well. Yeah, it's so predictable." >> Well, I mean, it's fun dating a drug dealer until it's not fun dating a drug dealer. So, I don't know if she stuck around long enough, but those guys generally don't have good endings to their stories. They either are smart enough and get out and they can kind of escape the consequences or they just end up shot or they end up in jail or they it's just not a good scene, right? So, I guess all women a lot of women dream of being the gangster's moll because those kinds of dangerous men are exciting and they can participate vicariously in his social freedom. Like criminals can do things they have the boldness and the courage to flout laws and social norms and so they're free in a way that most of us are not, right?

9:41 >> Mhm. >> A lot of women move through life in fear. Like they're more concerned for their physical safety than men are, for I think obvious reasons, right? And so if they can meet a guy who they can vicariously join with that moves past the fear, like he's he has the courage and the boldness or the insanity to do all the things that maybe she's too afraid to do on her own, and being with him gives her permission to enter into that kind of world.

10:07 But generally they get out before the the consequences hit, and they're often not the ones lying in the pool of blood or being sentenced to jail even when things go badly, right? So they get to experience a lot of the the freedom and positives vicariously, and they get protected by a lot of from a lot of the consequences. But the main thing is so it's it's actually fairly uncommon to date a drug dealer, right? In the scheme of things.

10:32 What's more common is just being cooked by social media. So you can be a just a young woman. Like you don't even have to be a extravagant beauty, but if you're 18, 19, 20 years old and you can post swimsuit pictures, they don't even have to be like totally salacious, but just swimsuit pictures or you in your cocktail dresses when you go out with your girlfriends, you you can end up with 100,000 followers within like 10 months.

11:03 And I don't know who can not recalibrate her expectations after that kind of attention. Like a woman who's getting 100,000 men to like her content, to DM her, to write, "You're so gorgeous." Heart heart heart. Like I don't think that anyone man, no matter how high value or good he is, will ever be able to provide the attention and validation that 100,000 other men can provide. And so I think they're just kind of cooked. Like, I think it's going to be very difficult for them to enter into what we might call this green tea and rice relationship.

11:40 >> Mhm. >> That's more common than dating a drug dealer. >> Yeah. That is difficult once they've experienced that. And from the man's perspective, I feel that I've heard this trope that sometimes men will date chaotic women, and they will associate those ups and downs and the passion as a good relationship, the excitement of it. How would you contrast that with some what you would define as a good relationship? >> Well, a lot of people do that, and that could be because of their families of origin. Like, a long time ago I read went out with a girl, and we got to talking about the future and what we wanted, and she said, "Well, I I kind of just I want to fight, and then like make up, and have sex, and then fight, and make babies, and I don't want to do Why do we have to fight? Like >> Mhm.

12:30 >> And I think that's just what she saw growing up, and so she came to model what caring is as emotional expression. And the more intense and pointed the expression was, the greater the perceived affection and commitment. And certainly cultures in general differ with respect to their level of expressed emotion. So, it's might be difficult from for people from a very repressed culture, let's say like Japan, to date somebody from a very open culture like Israel. Like, those two places might be diametrically opposed to each other in terms of emotional expression. The one person's going to think the other one is too cold and disinterested, the other one will think that they're just overwhelming and immature, potentially, right? So, maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's a family thing. We all have these love templates that that enter into the sexual marketplace with that we're largely not aware of for quite some time.

13:30 >> Mhm. >> but I think in general people mistake limerence, which is the feeling of being in love, like that kind of passionate, overwhelming, it makes my heart race, I kind of get swoony, I think about that person all the time, as like that's what I'm supposed to feel in my relationships. And I think that that experience, which has been known to civilizations for thousands of years, has long been called a form of madness or a mental illness.

13:59 It's like that person in ancient Greece was hit with Cupid's bow. It's like no one really thought that getting shot was a good thing. You know what I'm saying? That's like today's Cupid would have a gun. It's like you you were just like blatted, you know? Like that's not something that people would go out seeking. Nobody wanted it, but sometimes you got hit by a stray bullet and it's too bad for you, man, cuz I know it's not going to end well. Like until very recently, the 20th century, every romance was actually a tragedy because it meant that that person was going to fall from reason, fall from duty, fall from honor, and sacrifice all kinds of things in the service of a doomed relationship. Like every traditional literary romance is a tragedy.

14:40 And that changed in the 20th century because people didn't like that story, they invented the romantic comedy, and they wanted the happily ever after. But that's a complete Hollywood invention that actually doesn't resonate deeply from a psychological standpoint. It's just It's like processed food. It's not actually nutritious. It doesn't It doesn't It doesn't work for your body. >> Mhm. >> But it looks like food, it tastes like food, but it's probably not really food. You know what I mean?

15:07 >> Mhm. I feel like we've been told though that that is what love is. And I feel like maybe it's a Disney or Hollywood rendition, and people fall into the strongest emotions that they feel, but what should people look for instead then? >> Well, we were talking about this the other day. So, yeah, people have all kinds of unrealistic expectations in media, and that's why China has outlawed certain television programs. They're kind of like K-dramas, but in China, where a kind of average woman, which happens in America, too. It's like the Twilight series. It's like a kind of an average woman suddenly becomes the intense romantic interest of an attractive billionaire.

15:49 It's sometimes more than one, and she has this terrible like which billionaire should I go with, you know, is the werewolf or the vampire kind of a thing. So, and Xi Jinping is like this is giving women unrealistic expectations. Our population is declining. We can't expose women to these sources of media to fill their minds with this is what the marketplace is supposed to look like because 99.99999% of women men are not going to be attractive billionaire vampires, you know what I'm saying? So, we do push this narrative that it's supposed to be butterflies, and that it's only a matter of time before I have my meet-cute, and I as a woman don't actually have to do anything. I can kind of just like go about my business, and if he really wanted to, he would.

16:40 And then I'm just going to be swept off my feet when I find my person, and that is extremely passive. And it's just not true. So, I do think that if women want to have greater success in the game of mating and dating, they should be more active. And women have a huge advantage over men in that most men are going to be receptive to an advance from most women. But most women are not going to be receptive to an advance from most men.

17:13 >> Mhm. >> So, they can they can actually take the lead on some level. They don't want to do that because being the one who's asked is actually a position of power. It's like the difference between sending out a resume cold and unasked for to being actively recruited. Like you're much more likely to get a better deal in the second possibility than the first, right? >> Mhm. >> But that means that you might have to wait a long time. And unfortunately, for better or for worse, women's default in the dating market should be to act.

17:47 >> Mhm. What did you look for in women in your 20s and 30s that differs from what you're attracted to now? >> Well, like many guys in my 20s, I was mostly led by my my physical attraction. Like I'm not necessarily proud to say it, but if she was hot enough, it like nothing else mattered. I just wanted to be with her, right? And that caused me to meet a lot of attractive women that were also very emotionally unstable.

18:21 Also, I was an actor, so I dated a lot of actresses cuz those were who were around and actors aren't really known for their emotional maturity or stability, right? So, I think just I was prioritizing sexual attraction above all things. And that's not a great way to go about that. I mean, I also had the fallacy that I should be able to have the relationship I want with anyone. >> Mhm. >> And I've since come to understand that you can only have certain relationships with certain people. Like certain you cannot have loving, stable, peaceful, long-term relationships with a great deal of people. Like like you said, those people need to be mature. They need to be trustworthy. They need to be accountable. Like they need to take responsibility for their own emotions.

19:10 They can't just be externalizing the cause for how they feel to the world around you around them, right? And I would just take the woman that I was most attracted to and try to make her my girlfriend. >> Yeah. >> And that caused a lot of pain. And generally, I also was very confused by what women wanted. I thought all women wanted romance and all women wanted relationships. And so I kind of led with that. And my example was the songs and movies that I saw. And it was like the grand gesture worked. So I have to the way that you get a woman, I thought in my 20s, was to make sure that she knows that you love her more than anybody else.

19:52 >> Mhm. >> Because that's what I saw winning in the movies that I was watching. And when that didn't work, my solution was I just didn't do it enough. So I would like double down on that losing strategy because I thought that it was just a lack of effort or execution before I finally scrapped that whole idea around 30 years old and started like from scratch. >> Mhm. >> Now, I mean, again, the the qualities that you're looking for in a woman really differ depending on the type of relationship you want to have. If you do want to have a long-term marriage, yeah, you should be sexually attracted to this person, for sure, because this is your sexual relationship. Sex is a lot more than just pleasure and reproduction. It's a great way that people emotionally bond with each other, among other things.

20:38 >> Mhm. >> It's a way for you to stay emotionally attuned and connected to your partner. I think when people are married and they go too long without having sex, they tend to drift away from each other. It's hard to drift away from somebody that you're having sex with regularly, for better or for worse. Like you're coming into very close immediate contact with them. It's very hard to, which also stimulates vulnerability and sharing and trust. So it makes it more likely to have those hard conversations, I think, than if you're just sort of roommates to be honest. A lot of those situations which are sexless are about keeping the peace and not rocking the boat.

21:14 And hoping that you don't drift too far away from each other over the years. And I don't think that's an ideal situation, right? >> Mhm. >> So you need to be sexually attracted. I think that a really for me the the best thing to look for in a long-term partner is kindness, especially from a woman. I don't want to argue. it's no point in arguing with a woman, you can't win. When when you lose, you lose. When you win, you lose kind of a thing.

21:42 So I don't want to have a relationship with somebody who's conflictual or critical or combative. That doesn't necessarily mean that she just has to silently obey and say yes, sir to everything I say, but there's a way to disagree without being disrespectful, without being abrasive in the same way that if you disagree with an employer or your father or someone in a position of power and authority, you could bring your concern to them or even challenge their viewpoint without being unhinged and antagonistic. You know what I mean? So kindness is really big for me.

22:25 >> Mhm. Yeah, I like that. I think a lot of guys fall into the trap of finding the hottest girl and saying this one is the one I want. >> Yep. >> And I'm going to make this girl my wife. >> Yep. >> And I feel like it almost has to be the other way around where it's like, okay, here's the pool of girls who like me and want to have the kind of relationship that I want.

22:48 Let's choose the hottest girl from among those. >> That's much better. So I call those two strategies hunting and fishing. Hunting is like I want that one. For better or for worse, it's women have a higher success rate with hunting for what I just told you. Most women could approach most men and most men will at least be receptive. But the other way is not true. So, they can actually target specific men and say, "I want that guy." Even better if they do their research ahead of time.

23:14 I know this is a lot of work, but one, women love research. >> Mhm. >> They know how to leverage social media. They know about your ex. They know about Who's that girl that's following you and like your Like they do the research anyway. And two, yes, it's a more effort and time up front, but it's less time and effort than another year-long situationship or another 2-year relationship that didn't go the distance. >> Mhm. >> So, it's like women have to stop being a penny smart and a dollar dumb, as the saying goes. so, they can they can hunt and they should hunt, especially with social media, because we now live in an age where you can actually directly contact billionaires, athletes, movie stars, royals, pretty much everyone in the world. You don't have to go through any gatekeepers anymore. It's incredible that women don't use that technology more. They still wait to be contacted.

24:06 They still wait for their meet-cute. And the men that they most want are not chasing women. Period. So, that's another thing that women have to kind of make their peace about. They get chased by a lot of guys, but they're not the guys they want to be in relationships with. They expect that the men they want to be in relationships to behave like the men that they don't want to be in relationships with. And that's part of the reason why there's those two categories.

24:34 The guy who they want to be in relationship, who's more generally more successful, higher status, better lifestyle, more attractive, lots of options, he's not going to be chasing you down. So, you have to put yourself in front of him. You have to make the effort. That doesn't mean you have to like hide in the bushes outside of his house and pounce on him, but it's like you might have to do some research and then drop a handkerchief, which is basically how women have operated for hundreds of years.

25:02 Which is like give a signal that you want to be approached. >> Mhm. >> Women have way more control and power who approaches them for what than they seem to believe in today's day and age. >> Mhm. You mentioned that when you were younger, you weren't as discerning in terms of women's character when you were choosing candidates. What are some red flags in the girls that you dated in the past that you didn't recognize back then, but you would keep an eye out for now?

25:28 >> There's a lot of red flags, man. >> Mhm. >> I've I think I've experienced pretty much everything that you can experience in the the game of mating and dating. Let's see. >> Maybe a few that caught you by surprise or wouldn't have noticed back then. >> Well, it's also a new world cuz in the '20s, this was before really social media. It was before having hundreds of thousands of followers. it was just the beginning of smartphones, so it was it was really different.

25:58 this was even the early stages of online dating. Back then, people just thought that those folks who used online dating like eHarmony were just losers who couldn't meet people in real life. Now, half of marriages the couples met online. >> Mhm. >> Okay, this is going to out me. I'm I'm not this way anymore, but this I'm sure there's a going to be a lot of guys who resonate with this. Sometimes like there's there's a wolf inside of me, you know? There's let's let's be honest.

26:30 A man is like the apex predator on this planet. >> Mhm. >> And there's a reason why in like the old cartoons, the lascivious man was always kind of portrayed as the wolf, you know? >> Mhm. >> You're on the prowl. You're looking for action, right? And so there's a sense when I was younger that I could kind of like find the girls who maybe were a little they were a little damaged. Maybe it's clear they were a little loose with the boundaries or they seem to have a need for attention. Maybe they had daddy issues. It took a while to figure that out, but there was something a little like off about them.

27:09 And there was a part of me that wolf inside of me that said, "Oh, it's going to be easier to catch this one. It's like hunting the gazelle with the limp. You know what I'm saying?" For better for worse, it's going to be easy to chase this one down. >> Mhm. >> A woman who has daddy issues, who needs constant attention, who's emotionally unstable, all those things can be exciting. All those things can make it more likely that she's going to enter into a sexual relationship more quickly.

27:33 Like let's just be honest about that. but those same things become liabilities in the context of a long-term relationship. >> Mhm. What's an example of emotional instability that men should not accept? >> I think an easy one that you can probably pick up on in the first date is like extreme touchiness. Like you she she doesn't like one word that you said.

28:04 And so now she has to make a federal case about it. >> Mhm. >> Or she reads way too deeply into a tone inflection. And then she's off to the races. What she's kind of done psychologically I think is she's taken this one word this one little tone or this one little glance and she's extrapolated way beyond the available evidence, has now put you in a certain category which is generally, "Oh, you're this kind of a guy." And then they start to just treat you badly. On some they Now they feel like because you're this kind of a guy, they're justified in attacking you or they're justified in disrespecting you, etc. etc.

28:44 And that's absurd. I mean, that kind of cognitive fusion is very, very dangerous because a woman who engages in that can be a million miles away from reality in just like a second or two. Like she's not always right. She's not even mostly right, most likely. and she's filling in the gap with her own mind. And that's also kind of a red flag. Like a a woman who maybe comes from a more stable or loving family she's also going to have those gaps in her knowledge base, but she might fill them in with like, "Oh, he probably just meant it in this way." Which is kind of like a generous or socially acceptable interpretation.

29:25 A woman who just assumes the worst about you, that you're fighting this uphill battle, that she takes everything that you say the wrong way, she's easily offended, she's very touchy, even if you tough it out it's very hard to not end up in a situation where you're like walking on eggshells in your own relationship. >> Mhm. >> I think that's an easy one to spot. >> Okay, so we're talking about women making you feel like you're walking on eggshells in your own relationship.

29:51 >> Yeah, cuz you're going to end up kind of censoring yourself in order to kind of avoid the reactivity of any one thing setting her off. So that's usually a red flag that you can spot very early, but I actually have a another one that's even more important that I wish I could tell myself in the 20s. It's technically not a a red flag like we normally think about. It's not necessarily that a woman is is damaged or toxic. The red flag though is that she's just not that interested.

30:20 >> Mhm. >> And I used to think, based on what we were talking about, that if I just was persistent enough or I tried enough or I made a bigger gesture or I was just it was just a failure of her understanding how much I wanted her that I could succeed in attracting her into a relationship. And sometimes it does actually work. But it works at a very steep cost. I would say that in general it's just better to only have relationships with women who are really attracted to you and enthusiastic about being there. Because even if you succeed in getting them into your structure, which obviously doesn't always work, they're not really that thrilled to be there, which means that smaller reasons to exit will become more prominent and prevalent throughout the relationship. You also deal with more just squirreliness.

31:15 The way I kind of think about it is if you've been in the job market for a long time, you kind of know how rare high-paying meaningful work is, right? And when you finally get that kind of job where you're making the six figures and you have a position of impact and authority, you generally don't rock the boat because you kind of know what else is out there. You know what I'm saying? It might not be perfect, but it's way better than the vast majority of job opportunities. So you kind of like learn to act right on some level.

31:49 And I think that a woman's level of attraction is directly related to her willingness to act right. >> Mhm. I think that's one of the biggest things that I've learned over the years that I didn't realize when I was younger is how to spot someone who is genuinely into you and really has that desire. >> Mhm. >> And I think a lot of guys misinterpret the signals and they they think a girl is really into them, but they're not. So what are some signs that would actually tell you?

32:17 >> Yeah, I would say that if you're not sure she's not that into you, you know? Because once you actually experience that, a woman who is like a 10 out of 10 attracted to you, everything becomes clear. If you still don't know, it's like maybe she's into me, I think so, it's probably because you haven't yet experienced that 10 out of 10 attraction from a woman. because a woman who is that way makes it very clear what she wants. She will make an effort. She will come to you. She will be easygoing. She will be sexually generous. It's like night and day.

32:52 And if you're questioning whether any given woman is, it probably means you haven't had that experience yet because there would be no question, right? So, those are the things to look for. Is she easygoing? Does she make a lot of >> >> eye contact? Does she touch you? Does she touch herself, her hair? Is she willing to accommodate your frame? Like, she's not interested in meeting halfway. She wants to come to you. She's down on less notice. She doesn't need a fancy date to compensate her for her lack of attraction. Like, you could just ask her to come over to the park outside your house or something like that, and she would think that it's a wonderful opportunity. I mean, think about it.

33:32 You probably have heroes or mentors that you look up to in the world. Like, if you got a call from that person and was like, "Hey, been following your stuff for a while, but I thought it would just be cool to grab a coffee sometime. You down?" It's like, you would probably book a flight to travel to that city to meet this mentor. You know what I'm saying? This person that you've admired from a distance for years.

33:52 So, that's the kind of response that ideally you want from the woman that you're in a long-term relationship with. And of course, it's very hard to get that. Because because the intersexual competition is fierce. Like, it's not enough to be the big fish in a small pond as a guy. Because there are no small ponds anymore. Everyone's swimming in one gigantic ocean. And you might be a great catch for like an ordinary guy, but that woman might be hit up by I you know what? A sultan in the Middle East or an actual professional athlete in Europe or a guy with crazy physique and is like the the Latin lover and will take you on this lambada of love. You know, it's like it's really really hard to compete as a guy these days.

34:48 >> Mhm. Yeah, I think maybe a couple things I've noticed is if a girl is really making an effort to prolong the conversation, so it's very easy to text her. I think that often when people aren't that interested, it kind of feels like you're working an uphill battle. Yeah. And then just being really down for anything. Like you one of I remember being on a date once and I was like, "Oh, do you want to get ramen?"

35:15 And she's like, "Yep." Like love some ramen. It's like zero hesitation. Just yep. Like as in so quickly that no matter what I said, she was going to say yes. I think that that kind of compliance. >> And let's talk about game because game is really useful for for pickup in secure short-term relationships. Like it's good to have some rizz because you do need to stimulate in a a woman's emotions very quickly if you want to close quickly, right? so it's good to be able to have that kind of confidence, that kind of social freedom and fluency, that sort of playfulness to engage a woman's emotions. But to be honest, when I started moving more towards the direction of long-term relationships, I actually become intentionally boring.

35:56 Like I have anti-game. Like I don't try to rizz anybody. >> Mhm. >> I want women to think that they're doing more work. I want women to think that I'm boring and dull and that I'm they're not going to get the kind of fireworks and stimulation that they might be expecting. And I want those women to fall out of my filter of their own volition. >> Yeah, I think looking back on the relationships I've had, seeing things through all the way, it's the girls that were really chasing you at the beginning and really into at the beginning where things worked out. Whereas the ones where you had to go through hoops or use fancy maneuvers to get them into you.

36:39 >> Mhm. >> One thing I wonder is you know, you talk about women's attraction being a complicated thing involving different triggers like more than just physical attraction, but say they look at your status or where you stand in the world and what you have going for you. So, people say that a woman's attraction is more like a dimmer switch whereas a man's is like an on and off switch. What do you think about that in terms of looking for the girls who are like really into off the bat versus, you know, maybe a girl who becomes more attracted to you as she gets to know more about you.

37:14 >> Well, you'll know if a girl is attracted to you right off the bat because she'll put herself in front of you either physically or virtually, right? And she'll propose more opportunities for you to get together in more secluded environments. Like it's it's not it's not confusing when a girl is very attracted to you. nothing works on everyone, but everything works on someone. That's another thing to keep in mind. There's all these different pathways as a man. You can be funny, you can be hot, you can be romantic, you can be kind of cocky and neggy and playful in that capacity.

38:01 There's there's not an infinite number of routes, but there's a number of routes. But, they all work to the extent that they stimulate a woman's emotions. That's even what like physical attractiveness is. It's a it's a feeling. It's like, "Wow, when I look at him, I feel kind of hot and my heart starts to race." That's even the appeal of money. It's not money in in the sense of the pure numbers in the bank account, it's all of the things that money and lifestyle can afford and how she feels about those things.

38:28 >> Mhm. >> So, everything works in seduction to the extent that it succeeds in stimulating a woman's emotions, and different women are going to be stimulated differentially by different triggers. That's why nothing works on everyone, right? So, I think I lost the thread of the question, though. >> Yeah, I think one thing I wonder is that you'll have girls that are really into you right away as soon as you meet them. >> Whereas there are some girls that when they get to know you more and see more about you, then they become more interested later, but are you not selecting for the girls that are most into you?

39:05 >> Okay. So, I do think that there's a couple of things here. I think you're seeing things clearly, but we have to be we have to say the quiet part out loud. I do think that the vast majority of women basically make a judgment in the first couple of minutes of meeting you if they're ever ever going to F sex with you. >> Mhm. >> And that's just based on raw animal attraction. You It doesn't necessarily mean you have to be the hottest guy, but you can't disqualify yourself at this point, because even if she then goes on to learn that you're actually this great guy, you're probably going to end up in this friend zone situation where she's going to say, you know, any woman would be lucky to have you.

39:47 And the guy's like, well, why why wouldn't you feel that way? I'm right here, you know? So, it's because that attractiveness piece is missing. So, the thing about where men and women tend to differ, not as much as people traditionally believe, but for a lot of men that's enough. Men make that same determination very very quickly, and it's like, okay, I'm attracted to you, we can make this happen, right? >> Mhm. >> Same thing for some women, but women need more.

40:17 There needs to be that determination the first couple minutes be like, "Okay, I could probably see myself in an intimate situation with you." But that's generally not enough for the vast majority of women to actually initiate or move forward with a sexual relationship. They they do kind of want to make a connection with that person, which I totally understand. Like I'm past the stage where I can just have intimacies with random people. Like I I I need to feel something with the person that I'm with.

40:46 They They just They just can't be a a warm body, you know? >> Mhm. >> so they want to make a connection and they want to have their emotion stimulation. So if you you pass that first test, which is like, "Yeah, you I could see that happen." And then you succeed in stimulating the emotion, which generally happens over time. Sometimes that takes 5 minutes, sometimes that takes five dates. I wouldn't wait much longer than that, though.

41:12 and then potentially you get to the point where it's a yes. Does that answer your question? >> Yeah. Yeah, that That's a simple way of looking at it that I think makes a lot of sense. >> But that attraction is really important. And most guys fail there. >> Mhm. >> It's interesting that you call it a dimmer switch because a dimmer switch, which you said was a woman, suggests that there's like a continuum. When that's actually more potentially appropriate to what we know about men.

41:42 Like when we see the revealed behavior of men on on dating apps, their rating of women's attractiveness basically follows a normal distribution. It's It actually is on a continuum. Like most women's are fives, there's a few twos, there's a few nines, and they basically fall off in that kind of expected organic progression. >> Mhm. >> Women are much more like an on and off switch according to the research. Like their data, 80% of men are unattractive.

42:10 >> Mhm. >> It's like it's no, and then there's a very steep asymptote, and then it's like a yes. So, I think that men might decide faster, mostly because they have lower standards. So, yeah, it seems that actually women tend to be more the yes or no, whereas men's perception of attractiveness is more on a continuum. And that's why it's so difficult is that the vast majority of men are just disqualified in those first couple of minutes.

42:39 >> Yeah, I think that's challenging because I think maybe through the pickup industry, guys have been told like you can convince a girl or you can get a girl to like you when she didn't at the beginning. And I feel like that could be a fall- fallacy. >> I think that's true, but I think the bigger culprit is just the part that women always leave out, which is their attractive their attraction is way more important for men's success than we culturally speak about because women don't say that part. Men almost always include that they're looking for an attractive wife or an attractive girlfriend. They use the physical attribute in their list of criteria. Most women don't explicitly. They hide that and mystify it because they don't want to be perceived as shallow or superficial, but they're still using that criterion in the judgment of men.

43:29 So, when you ask a woman what she's looking for, she's like, "Oh, I want somebody who makes me feel safe, who respects me, who cares about me, who's trustworthy." It's like all those things might be true, but she wants those things from the man that she's attracted to, and that attraction generally happens in the first couple of minutes. So, it's not really based on what that guy does for her or says because she doesn't have enough time to collect that kind of data. It's based on how he looks, his body, his style, his hygiene, those kinds of things. There's a few things that you can There's certainly things that men can do in this regard. Like we're not all going to have perfect facial symmetry unless we do something very drastic, but we can all be leaner. We can be stronger. We can learn style.

44:12 We can certainly present ourselves in the best possible light. And by taking care of those things, a guy can generally move up a couple of points in his attractiveness to most women. And why not play to those advantages? Doesn't necessarily even require a lot of money. Getting a couple good outfits, you're going to have to sort of throw some cash at that, most likely, unless you're like really good sense of style and you can go thrifting and you can throw together something really unique, but most guys don't have that flair. So, you might have to throw some money, but that's the fastest way to like improve your attractiveness by one point in a weekend. It's like drop a thousand bucks on like two or three good outfits.

44:54 >> Mhm. Yeah, I think guys don't spend enough time and effort like working on themselves in terms of the attractiveness. >> I think they take it too personally. They think that, oh, I'm this is just who I am am and this is who I'm going to be. And they don't remember that they didn't used to be this way. They used to be teenagers and children. They used to play with blocks. They they used to not be able to talk or walk. It's like they've learned skills to develop to where they are today.

45:23 Why are they cooked? Like especially guys in their 20s, there's no reason to be hopeless at that point. Like the game is it's it's it's just getting started. It's the opening minutes of the game. We're not even through the first quarter yet. You know what I'm saying? So, there's no reason to throw in the towel. >> When it comes to dating, how do women test men? >> Oh, I mean, they test men in all kinds of different ways. Sometimes consciously, a lot of times unconsciously.

45:51 I think one of the more common tests is they'll say something like, well, I like men who do this. I like men who buy me flowers or I like men who come to me, etc. etc. And it's basically a compliance test. And it's actually very difficult to navigate because if you from a rational male perspective, you think, "Hmm, woman likes X, if I give woman X, woman will like me." And that's unfortunately not how it works.

46:17 However, if you're too cold and you're just like, "Well, don't even It's like, "Well, that. I'm not going to do that." It's probably better to err on that side than being too compliant, but there's a fine line. in general, the best response to these sorts of tests is to call the bluff, which is basically like something like, "Well, it sounds like you'd be better served with another guy." It's like you gently orient her towards the door and you basically say, "Well, in so many words, this is who I am.

46:49 And I think that well, who I am and what I offer is good enough. But if this is truly that important to you, I will respect your decision. But that's not who I am and you might be better served with another man." >> Mhm. >> And allow her to make a choice. Don't ever try to convince a woman of your worth. That's another thing I tell my 20-something self. >> Mhm. Yeah, I think a lot of guys kind of give in and give up the frame early in relationships and that slowly erodes the the dynamic that would be optimal.

47:21 >> Yeah. >> It's frustra- women must be confusing to themselves sometimes as well, you know? Because I do believe that they do like those things. Like, it is nice when the guy shows up with flowers and buys the dinners and goes out of his way. Like, in the short term, that feels good. But I wonder if they then think, "Well, why am I losing interest in this man?" Like, I see this trope on Instagram all the time.

47:50 women are posting to other women and they're basically saying, "I don't understand. I have this great guy. He cooks dinner every night. He gives me a foot massage. I never have to worry about where he's at. But I still keep thinking about that guy from 10 years ago who was who didn't do any of these things. Like, what's wrong with me?" And that's just unfortunately how attraction works. A lot of this is way more biological than we'd like to admit.

48:20 >> Mhm. >> In today's day and age, we want to pretend that everything is cultural, even gender, even sex, right? Everything is cultural. Nothing is biological. And that's wrong. It's wrong to say that everything is biological, but there's clearly a strong influence of your physical reality in attractiveness, in mating and dating, etc., etc. And when you lean into that, you generally have more success in the sexual marketplace. Let's just be honest.

48:52 >> Mhm. Yeah. To what extent is it normal and natural for women to be testing men in these ways, and to what extent is it that it's a reflection of a girl's, you know, hesitation about him? And maybe a bad sign. >> I think testing in general is a good sign. It's annoying as a guy to be tested, but you have to remember that most people don't like test drive cars for fun. >> Yeah. >> Most people test drive cars only if they're pretty far along in the decision process.

49:27 They've already done independent research. They've compared prices. They like this particular model. Then they do the test drive. The test drive is basically designed to reveal any invisible flaws or liabilities. You don't actually have to sell on the test drive. You just have to not blow the sale on the test drive, right? So, if she's there and she's testing you, all you have to do is not blow it on some level because she's looking for weaknesses, not necessarily probing for strengths.

50:00 She's sold herself enough on you or the car, you know, to actually put her body in the dealership to go on the date with you and to kick the tires. So, she's actually almost entirely at the decision. So, it's a good sign. It's annoying to deal with on the spot in the moment as a man. So, you just have to kind of remind yourself of that that this is normal, this is natural. As I talk about in the book, it's one of the prerogatives of the passengers to test the captain. It's like if I'm going to be getting on this boat, I want to make sure that the boat is trustworthy and seafaring. So, that suggests like your lifestyle, the things that you have going on in your life can actually support the structure of the relationship that I'm looking for. And also that you're not an incompetent buffoon.

50:45 So, I I'm going to ask you a couple of challenging questions. I'll put a little pressure on you to see how you respond. A lot of tests, as they're called, are basically a way of introducing fabricated or arbitrary stress on a man to use it as a proxy for how he will respond to actual necessary stress in life and in the relationship. And if you can't handle the little arbitrarily created artificial stress, I wouldn't I wouldn't move forward with somebody because there's big waves out there and hurricanes and pirates and stuff like that. So, I want to If you can't handle a little bit of test on dry land, I'm not going to get on a boat with you. I think that's totally fair.

51:27 >> That makes sense. And then, what would be the boundary between testing that's healthy and disrespect? >> Well, the main thing to understand is that the testing should stop. >> Mhm. >> Like no one treats a car on a test drive very well because again, you're trying your hardest to reveal its defects. So, you're like slamming on the brakes and kicking the tires. But it's if you actually move forward with buying the car, you drive it off the lot very carefully. You know what I'm saying? It's now your car. So, the testing should stop once you make your decision. If the testing continues for too long or past the point of apparent commitment or decision, that's a real problem. It's like you you can't be on a permanent test drive. At a certain point it's like you have to sign on the line that is dotting dotted or you have to stop wasting my time. Like are you in or you out?

52:23 You've had a reasonable due diligence period. What's your decision? And if you decide to leave, no problem. But if you decide to stay, it's like you have to like stop with the testing. It has to it has to resolve itself. Women who are very anxious in terms of like anxious insecure attachment style or they come from broken or challenging families find it very difficult to stop testing because there's always a new thing that's causing them to feel insecure, whether that comes from you or the relationship or not. And one way they seek reassurance is to make sure that you still care. And so, they might try to provoke an emotional response out of you. This is a really I think dangerous and unproductive way that women test men is sort of the unconscious or sometimes conscious equation that your emotional response equates your caring for me.

53:22 And because there's some grain of truth to it, it's like if I don't care about you, I'm not even going to bother to fight with you. Like I I've nothing to gain from this. I don't I'm not invested in this. I've it's just not worth it. So, sometimes people can think that if I can provoke you into anger, I feel better now. >> Mhm. But that's not a good relationship to move forward with. A woman who needs to feel your anger, to provoke your anger in order to feel reassured in that relationship, when it works, it just creates this vicious cycle where she's going to provoke even more and you're going to be subtly shaped into an angry man.

54:01 >> Mhm. >> Which I mean, I don't want to be an angry man. I've felt enough anger in my life. I don't need to feel any more anger, personally. So, when the testing goes on for too long, that's a red flag. >> >> Testing also can be done respectfully. It's sort of Think of it like a job interview. You don't just take the resume at face value. You kind of push back or explain this gap in your employment experience or you you push back, but you don't do it in a way that's going to get an HR complaint. You know what I'm saying?

54:36 There's ways to push and challenge that are still respectful of the other person and the dynamic that you are engaged in. >> Mhm. Yeah, I think a lot of guys nowadays don't see any boundaries on, you know, behavior from peop- people that they're dating. And I think looking at it from the frame of the job interview helps. >> Oh, boundaries. So, this is also something to keep in mind is yeah, when I was in my 20s, I dated a lot of women in their 20s, right?

55:09 >> Mhm. >> And both men and women in their 20s are still pretty immature. They're still trying to figure stuff out. Fun fact, the most dangerous venomous snakes in the world are young female venomous snakes. In the sense that the young ones haven't yet learned how to titrate their venom. When you get bit by a young snake, it just releases the entire reserve of venom into its prey. It hasn't yet learned like how much venom needs to be released given the prey that it's taking down. They just like go hog, >> Mhm.

55:47 >> I think that's kind of true for some young women is they haven't yet really realized how to titrate their venom. >> Mhm. >> And I think that kind of comes with time. You I mean, we don't really develop biologically fully until we're 25, 26. The brain is still forming. And then there's still the psychological element that comes after that. And until the neocortex is fully formed, it's very difficult for people to have impulse control, to have good judgment, to have emotional regulation. All those things are They're facilitated by cortical density in in the frontal lobe. And that's the last part of the brain to develop. So, on some level, young people are kind of acting the way that young people should be expected to act on some level.

56:40 >> Mhm. >> So, it gets easier when you don't date women who are in their early 20s. >> Mhm. >> That unfortunately is the age that most men think that women are most attractive. But, they're not even fully formed yet psychologically or biologically. >> Mhm. And then carrying on in the first few dates when you're getting to know someone, what are some things that you would want to know about them? >> Mhm. This one's tricky because I One way to have a really bad date is to turn it into a job interview.

57:19 >> Mhm. >> The goal of a date, in my opinion, should not be to capture factual information. If factual information led to successful relationships, then this could all just be a questionnaire that we could submit to some sort of big clearinghouse and they could match us up with the folks who give the most similar responses. >> Yeah. >> And early dating apps or sites purported to do just that. Like eHarmony, you would fill out a huge questionnaire about your personality and try to match with that and it doesn't always work because that has nothing to do with vibe, with chemistry, with attractiveness. And it's very difficult for people to move forward with folks who might be a good fit when those other things are missing.

58:06 >> Mhm. >> So, I think a good successful first date is really just about forming an emotional connection. The details can be filled out in time. And in fact, you probably shouldn't be sharing all that much about your personal details on a first date. Like this is not the time to get into your trauma. >> Mhm. >> This is not the time to become extremely vulnerable. They don't even necessarily need to know how much money you have in the bank or it's like these are These are things that you share with people as you build real trust and real trust has to be built over time.

58:39 So, sometimes folks get in it way too quickly. This can actually work in the sense that that kind of vulnerability, if it's matched, can cause a really intense connection very, very quickly. >> Mhm. >> Which can lead to a firework relationship, lots of passionate sex, lots of kind of obsessive thinking, but generally I found that those relationships that start very, very fast burn out just as quickly. And in a couple of months, there's generally some big blowout fight and then boom, you're back to square one scratching your head thinking, "Did that all just really happen or was that a dream?"

59:14 >> Mhm. >> So, I do think it's important to kind of titrate the disclosure of your past, of your of your private life. Think if you wouldn't say it in a job interview, don't say it on the first date. >> Mhm. >> There are just certain topics that probably are not appropriate to speak about on a first date. It's just about like do I like spending an hour with you? Like keep the bar really low. >> Yeah, I think that sometimes people get into their heads too much about this kind of stuff and then as you said, it kind of kills the vibe when it becomes all about let's go through this checklist.

59:52 >> Yeah, because checklists actually don't work. I've done consultations with many women who want some counsel because they have a guy who looks great on paper, but they still have this emotional hesitancy about moving forward. >> Mhm. >> Because checklists don't create that vibe, that emotional connection, that attractiveness, that attraction. they they might be good for some relationships depending on if you want to have a more traditional almost arranged situation where it's like, "We're husband and wife. We understand that those are two roles to raise children and have a household, but my romance is somewhere else. We don't spend a lot of time together. We all kind of know our lane and we stick to it." Like in that case, if you want to have that kind of relationship, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, that's how marriage has existed for hundreds or thousands of years.

60:43 then you have to give up some of those other things, too. You don't have to date for vibe. Like you can actually ask your parents to help you with that. >> Mhm. >> might be the way to go on some level, and I do think that the arranged marriage divorce rate is generally less, significantly less than the love marriage divorce rate where arranged marriage is still practiced. >> In terms of what guys should be doing, you mentioned that if men are looking for something short-term, they should err on the side of being too bold, but on the other hand, if they want something long-term, then maybe they should be more reserved.

61:19 How much should men be displaying their money and status assuming that you're the captain and you worked on yourself. >> Yeah, this is a fine line as well. So, the fact of the matter is you have to bait your hook with something because fish don't bite steel. No fish bites a bare hook. You have to bait it with something. So, it's either your sexy, your appearance, it's your money and lifestyle, it's your connection and your your social circle, the opportunity that you could afford somebody.

61:50 Maybe it's just I can take you on a really I have access to this great experience or this event and you can get there through me. Like you have to bait your hook with something. So, the way I say this is that if you're lucky enough to have a Porsche and a Porsche can be the literal car or it could be a symbol for any good thing that you have in your life. The best place for it is in the background.

62:16 Like if you have good things in your life, you can't hide them too much. Playing it too reserved in that respect is going to make it difficult to attract even enough attention to for women to give you a chance. Like there is some level of marketing. You cannot sell anything if you can't first capture attention even for just a few seconds. That said, it's in the background. You don't want to be moving with it as the first line of attack. You don't want to be sitting on the hood pointing at the ornament. Like that's not how people who actually own Porsches act.

62:57 That's how people who rent Porsches for the weekend and want people to think that it's their car act. You know what I'm saying? So, and people will generally notice that there's a Porsche in the background. So, that's kind of how I say it is there's ways to communicate your status and your lifestyle quietly. There's a term that came out a couple years ago called quiet luxury. Have you heard about that? So, it's a way of dressing. There are certain brands that don't have brands on them, but are recognized by people of certain social circles as being kind of very expensive, but they're not showy at all. Now, I'm not saying you have to drop $10,000 on a neutral colored sweater, right? I don't have that kind of money to spend on sweaters.

63:42 But, the lesson here is the same, which is there's ways of kind of like carrying the good things that you have in life with a kind of dignified confidence that those who know what they're looking for can recognize. >> Mhm. So, I guess what would be an example of how guys might, let's use the Porsche as an example, have it in the background when it comes to, say, you know, showing up to date or posting on social media. Like, if you had a picture of yourself with the Porsche in the background, that's still a pretty overt expression, I suppose.

64:16 >> on what the picture is like, right? But, it could even be a little fuzzy. It it it There are There are ways of making it so that the car It's just the car in the background, you know? It just happens to be a Porsche. In the same way that your Honda, another guy's Honda might just be in the background, right? In general, it's always better to show than to tell. This is great element of storytelling. You don't want to rely too heavily on exposition, where you just tell the reader, "This is what you're supposed to think."

64:48 you want to show them the action, right? Same thing with women. It's always better to show than to tell. >> Mhm. >> But, there's something even better than showing. The best way to do this is What's better than showing is having her discover it organically. >> Mhm. >> That said, it can take a long time for a woman to discover something that she doesn't know that she's looking for, right? So, the trick here is to kind of leave little breadcrumbs in your conversation.

65:19 That if she is paying attention and she's interested enough in you, will start to kind of like ask questions and tease it out of you. Like make her work for it. A big reason why a lot of first dates fail is that a guys are too heavy-handed with trying to demonstrate their value too quickly. >> Mhm. >> They show up on the date and they're showing off like, "Yeah, I make $400,000 a year and you know, I flew to Ibiza twice last year and I got this It's like They're they're because they have this a little bit of knowledge. They know that, you know, having an interesting life and having money and having high status is all things being equal more attractive to women and so they just think, "Well, I just need to show the woman my status and value and then she's going to beg me for sex and a relationship." And unfortunately, that's generally not what happens, right?

66:06 >> Mhm. >> So, it's usually better for the woman to be talking more on a first date than you the man. And the idea is to be kind of playful and vague and to get her to Wow. To get her to kind of Okay. So, generally it's a good when the woman is talking more, you're engaging her emotions. They don't always have to be positive emotions. I mean, this starts to get into darker Machiavellian tactics, but to work a woman through a variety of different emotions, hot and cold, little surprise, even anger, then relief.

66:46 That's going to be more compelling for her than just showing her that you are a high-value man. >> Mhm. >> Because she's going to associate all of those emotional experiences with you. That you were able to bring those out of her. That she felt a lot with you, which must mean that she must be attracted to you. >> Mhm. From your experiences as an actor, what are some ways of communicating that can make a man more attractive?

67:14 >> Mhm. >> Both verbal and nonverbal. >> I think a big thing that guys can do better. And again, this is I I I should copy out it with it's hard to make blanket statements cuz some guys are doing what they do really, really well and they shouldn't change. So, my advice isn't for every single guy. But for a lot of guys, they can get better at having a little bit more modulation in their tone of voice. A lot of men are flat and monotone.

67:40 >> Mhm. >> And unfortunately, women often pay more attention to the emotional timbre, the tone of the words than the actual semantic meaning of the words that you use as a man. And if it's flat, then she doesn't get a lot of information about what's going on inside of you. >> Mhm. >> Now, that can work on some women. Like being kind of inscrutable and ice cold is a strategy that some guys can pull off very well, especially if it's coupled with kind of like the bad boy, laconic, or dangerous guy.

68:17 But for most guys who are kind of just regular nice guys, it's not doing them any favors. >> Mhm. >> So, bringing a little bit more inflection in their tone of voice, to have a little bit more expressivity in their face, to learn how to communicate smaller emotions effectively with their facial expression and their tone of voice can do wonders to engage a woman. Especially because if she likes you and she's attracted she she generally mirrors you. And the if you start to be a little bit more emotional in your expression, she's probably going to match you.

68:55 >> Mhm. >> And that's then you're kind of off to the races. >> How can a guy work on this? Let's say we're talking about a guy who maybe he's a tech bro or works in finance, is very analytical most of the day. What can he do? >> Well, sometimes those autistic guys can get really good at this because what we're really talking about is on some level the activation of a set synergy of facial muscles. Like you have what? 26 muscles in your face? And emotional researchers have discovered this. Like you can simulate the expression of emotion that you don't feel just by activating the right combination of muscles.

69:33 In acting they call this mirror work. Like you have to stand in front of the mirror, which is how other people will perceive you, and like learn how to isolate and control the various muscles in your face. And then you can put them in combination to simulate the expression of an emotion. This does not necessarily mean that you're lying and you're communicating an emotion that you don't authentically feel. It can be the case that people do that. Actors don't always feel what they're expressing, right?

70:01 The most authentic emotion that doesn't succeed in landing with the audience is wasted. I think about this as a therapist. I do think that being an actor prepared me very well for being a therapist. For example, I could be the most caring and empathic person in the world. I'm not, but I could be, right? But if I can't succeed in communicating that to a patient, then that empathy and that kindness is wasted. Like maybe it makes me feel like a good person and gives me a warm sense of satisfaction, but it's not helpful at all to the client.

70:33 By the same token, if I were to completely simulate compassion and empathy without feeling it at all, that would probably be more useful than the first scenario where I feel it but can't communicate it. >> Yeah, that's a good point. It's like people can only perceive the emotions that they see on you. >> Yeah, because everything that we we talk about like what's it's on the inside that counts, but we can't see the inside. I can't see your heart, you know? I can only observe the changes in your facial expression, your tone of voice, your body posture.

71:13 These are all empirical. These are all external. And if that's the only way people can sense you and understand you, it makes sense to kind of like take intentional control over your body and your voice so that you can communicate more in line with how you're actually feeling on the inside. If you can succeed in communicating your authentic emotional state when necessary, you become a very effective communicator. >> Mhm. >> And for better or worse, the most effective communicators always have some measure of emotion.

71:45 >> Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Moving on to other aspects of vetting, I've a friend who's very wealthy and he tells me that he's worried about gold diggers. >> Sure. >> What would you tell him? >> Yeah, made an episode about this. Gold diggers actually are really easy to spot. And it's a there's a very simple defense to prevent any guy from being taken to the cleaners. Basically, I learned this from a mentor who said to me one day, "Orion, I don't give them the money, I just show it to them."

72:17 So, women, including gold diggers, are going to be attracted to wealth, lifestyle, luxury, and the kinds of experiences that money can buy. That's not necessarily a problem. Can be, but not necessarily, because you have to bait your hook with something, right? A gold digger is going to try to separate your money from your presence. >> Mhm. >> They're going to start to say things like, "You know, my love language is gifts." Or, you know, "I have a bill coming up. I don't know how I'm going to pay it."

72:50 Little hints like this, that will make the man volunteer to give money. And if those things don't work, they will eventually just ask for money. They'll ask for an allowance, or they need to get their hair done, or their cousin is sick, or something like that. The idea here is they're separating your resources from your presence. In which case, why do they need you? I mean, that's basically what happens in a divorce. Is the your ex gets access to your resources, but doesn't even have to deal with you anymore.

73:24 And a lot of dumb, but potentially well-intentioned guys think, "Oh, if I pay for things, she's going to be grateful, and she's going to be more into me, and that's what I need to do to keep her around anyway." But I think that's just becoming complicit in your own exploitation, to be honest. And so, these women tell on themselves. They're often very hot. If they can get away with just extracting money from men, they're generally very attractive, and so these guys just aren't thinking straight, or they think, "Oh, this is just the price of admission for this type of a woman." Cuz if I don't pay, she'll leave. In which case, yeah, that very well could be the case, but maybe that's for the best.

74:05 Because trying to get a gold digger to not be a gold digger is a futile exercise. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point, that looking at how the resources are connected with your time and your presence, I think. As long as you chain it to that, you're probably not going to >> the thing, is like, "Come into my frame, and when you're here, I'll cover everything. We're going to fly in comfort, we're going to go to some nice restaurants. You're not going to touch a bill, and this experience comes with being with me.

74:37 And then, when you leave the frame, you're on your own." And if you want that again, you have to come to me. Which I think is not manipula- it's I think it's just fair. >> It's just your world. >> Mhm. Let's say a guy is married to a woman and they're married. What's the biggest complaint that you hear from married men? >> They don't get enough sex. >> Mhm. >> By far. I mean, I think a majority of American marriages are technically sexless, which is defined as I think fewer than 13 times a year. So, anything that's basically less than once a month is a sexless relationship.

75:18 >> Mhm. >> And I think the majority of American marriages are there. >> Mhm. >> Which should scare any young man who enjoys his sex life, right? That's the number one complaint that I have from guys. And it's difficult to turn that around because it's generally not something that is a light switch. It's something that has slowly taken over the rela- it's like crept into the relationship and it's emblematic of a dynamic that has existed for years. And so, it is difficult to turn around very quickly. It's possible, but it's difficult.

75:55 >> Okay, yeah. So, if a man finds himself in a sexless relationship, what should he do? >> one of the best pieces of advice that I have to give for that situation is to act like you're having an affair because it's you don't actually have to have the affair. The actual infidelity doesn't usually help things, but everything around an affair tends to stimulate desire and attraction. Because what happens if you were to start having an affair? You wouldn't spend as much time at home.

76:29 >> Mhm. >> You probably wouldn't be answering your phone. So, you would take longer to get back to your wife. You would not be answering the phone when she she every time. Maybe you would stop pressuring her for sex at home because you were getting it somewhere else. Maybe you decided to kind of like go to the gym or get a new outfit because you're kind of like feeling good. There's somebody that appreciates the effort that you're putting in.

77:04 maybe you start to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do. You're now not coming straight home from work. You're stopping off somewhere, right? So, what do we have? We have mystery, uncertainty, novelty, risk, danger, spontaneity. All those things are associated with desire. And all of those things we tend to suffocate over time for the sake of security in our long-term relationships. >> Mhm. >> Esther Perel makes this argument in Mating in Captivity.

77:37 Where it's like in the West we've basically said that we want our relationships to be 100% secure. Unfortunately, the things that work for security are pretty much mutually exclusive with the things that work for desire. So, we succeed in making our marriages airtight, but there's no air for the flame of desire to ignite. I think of desire like a fire, and one of the combustible elements is oxygen. Like there needs to be some space >> Mhm.

78:05 >> for it to fuel the flame. And when we suffocate that, it's just not possible for the fire to ignite. So, you don't actually have to have an affair, but the idea that there's some suspicion, there's some uncertainty, maybe there's a stray hair, there's a hint of jealousy. Like that's not very socially acceptable to say, but jealousy is a wonderful spice, especially on women. A little bit goes a long way. You don't need that much. >> Mhm.

78:33 >> So, those are ways that you can get it reignited. You can also begin to have more frequent non-sexual physical contact. >> Mhm. >> I've worked with some guys who they've gotten to the point where just like if they if they touch their wife on their shoulder, they like shrug and move away. Can you imagine how painful that would be, right? one reason why this happens is because the men touch their women with like a question mark. It's the touch is not really a touch. It's like, "Hey, can we do this?" You know, "Are you in the mood? Yes or no?"

79:13 And so, if it's a question, then if she's not in the mood right that moment, it's going to be a no. And then it can the moment can never start. Some women kind of have to get their engines warmed up. You know what I'm saying? >> Mhm. >> And if you're already preventing that from occurring, it's very difficult to start cold. So, the idea is to have more moments of both emotional contact and separation, and to have more casual touch that's really just touch. It's not an a question or invitation to escalate.

79:48 And then to begin to kind of like warm her up and then break off. Warm her up and then break off. Warm her off and then break off. And if you do that enough times, it's ideally, when you're in a long-term relationship, the woman is basically in a a state of low-grade arousal at all times. >> Mhm. >> This is like having a fruit tree. I have a beautiful lemon tree outside, and it's like anytime I want, I can go out and pick a fruit. But that's because I've done the work to grow the tree and cultivate it and water it and to feed it. And now the fruit is available pretty much whenever I want year-round.

80:22 >> Mhm. >> That's a good relationship. But it requires maintaining a woman more or less at that level of arousal and receptivity. >> Mhm. Yeah, I think this is challenging because when guys get into long-term relationships, they get complacent. I was having this discussion with one of my buddies who broke up with his girlfriend and he said when he was with her, he lost his drive and he lost his motivation to continue improving himself and doing a lot of the things that he did when he was single.

80:49 So, how should guys mitigate that? >> I mean, this is also a hot take. It's not going to work for some people, but I think it's by taking some of the guardrails off the relationship. Like, I do think that if a relationship is too secure, it encourages that kind of complacency. I actually like the fact that both of us are replaceable. And if I don't show up as the best version of myself as her best option over a long enough time, I'm going to be replaced and vice versa.

81:17 Like, there's this old anecdote about a baseball manager who went up to a rookie and he said, "Hey, rookie, here's the thing. It's my job to replace you. It's your job to make sure that doesn't happen." And with that kind of understanding from the get-go, that athlete is going to train hard and do his best to not get cut from the team. Like, there certainly can go too far and you have this like toxic culture of fear and anxiety. Like, no one knows that they're about to get laid off kind of a thing. That's not good. But, I think that that's much less common than "Well, you're not going anywhere and if we did break up, I get cash and prizes anyway, so it's like what do I really There's no threat."

82:03 >> Mhm. >> And unfortunately, people generally have an need an a necessary impetus to do the hard thing to keep themselves physically fit, to keep leveling up and growing in as many different dimensions of their personality as possible to continue to be chosen by that partner every day. They're just lazy. They want to stop. They want to just be chosen once and for all. But I don't know if that's actually best for them. Like I think that a little bit of that insecurity is good because it keeps them engaged and young and fit and moving into the world. You know, when people decide they're tired, they stop.

82:45 And things start to fall apart quickly when they stop. >> Yeah, I think having that little bit of instability can sometimes push you to, you know, be the best version of yourself. >> Totally. And that's good for me. Like that insecurity is good for me because it forces me I don't skip the gym. I'm continuing to like find new business opportunities. I am present and show up. You know, it's like I have to earn it every day.

83:20 And I think that's that's good for both people. Especially when it's it goes both ways. >> Yeah. So, wrapping up, where can people find you? It's a great discussion. >> Oh, sure. So, best place is on YouTube. So, I I used to go by Psyche Hacks, but I changed the name of the channel recently to just my name, Orion Taraban. I have about a million subscribers there right now. And the links to all the other services I provide are in the description. So, I have a member community, the Captain's Quarters, where I do live group calls with a bunch of folks. I have a couple of books, the best seller The Value of Others, my novel Starry Night. Yeah. So, everything kind of spins from YouTube.

83:58 And if you want to book a session or find out more about my menu of services, that's where you can go. >> That's awesome. Yeah, I'll put those links in the description below. I think you're a great resource. It's great to have you. >> Thank you, Bill. It's always a pleasure, man. My first time doing an interview in my own house, so glad to have you. >> Hell yeah.