Jennifer Petriglieri - The Couple at the Centre: Jennifer Petriglieri on the Unit of Analysis We'...

0:01 [music] >> Welcome to Four Quarter Lives, podcast exploring the profound impact of longer lives and careers [music] on everything: countries, companies, couples, and careers. I'm Aviva Wittenberg-Cox, and on this week's Four Quarter Lives, I talk with Jennifer Petriglieri, INSEAD professor and author of the book Couples [music] That Work. Jennifer has spent years researching dual-career couples, and in this conversation, [music] we explore what happens to modern relationships when lifespans [music] stretch towards 80, 90, and maybe even 100 years. Why the settled marriage can't survive, what couples must keep renegotiating as they move [music] through the empty nest and beyond, and the two taboo topics, desire and power, that quietly determine >> [music] >> whether love actually lasts.

0:55 Welcome, Jennifer Petriglieri, to Four Quarter Lives. I should have had you long ago. >> It's great to be here, Aviva. Thank you for having me. >> [laughter] >> A real pleasure. You're one of my great favorites, and your book Couples That Work has accompanied me through many a personal and professional conversation. >> [laughter] >> So, I'd like to start by setting the frame a little bit. Longer lives and moder coupledom, why not [clears throat] start there with the themes? And you've spent many a year now studying dual-career couples. How do you think the reality of these new, longer, 80-to-100-years lifespans might reshape what it means to be a couple today?

1:38 >> I think in lots of ways. Some of them great, others a little bit more challenging. So, why don't I start with one of what I think is going to be the great ways. >> Yep. Okay, let's let's be optimistic to start. >> Let's be optimistic to start with. I think one of the pressures on couples, and particularly on women, for the last sort of 30 years has been this can I have it all? And can I have it all at once? And I really think the four-quarter life is going to take the pressure off having it all at once. And by that, I really mean in your 30s and early 40s to having it all across a lifetime.

2:11 >> Yeah. >> And I think in a couple of ways. One is just pure demographics. I think I'm probably the last generation, so I'm 50, just turned 50. I'm probably the last generation that had young children and elder parent care at the same time. I think those generations are stretching, so kind of that pressure is going to be off. And I think I'm probably in that last generation that when I entered the workforce was thinking, I've got until 65 to get to get out. And that probably persisted through the 30s and 40s. That idea has gone now. So, I think that is a great way that there's a sense of sequencing um that just feels realistic. It's not realistic that we can push push push on our career up up up up up for 50 years.

2:53 >> Yeah. >> It's not going to happen. We probably don't want it either, [laughter] right? So, we think that's a great thing that's going to give couples a lot more options and flexibility when it comes to their career, sequencing >> their ambition, taking turns. >> Exactly. I think that also creates challenges. So, I think what I call the settled marriage is dead. It just cannot survive. >> What is a what is a settled Okay, let's get a definition.

3:20 >> This idea that oh, we have a deal and this is our ideal and this has always been our ideal and this works for us is just ridiculous. So, you know, what works for you in your 30s is not going to work for you in your 60s. >> Yeah. >> So, this idea that we can kind of figure out how it works and that we set across the lifetime is just not possible. And I always say, when couples say, "Oh yeah, we've got it figured out." I'm like, "No, no, no, you have it figured out for now."

3:48 >> Now. >> [snorts] >> You don't have it figured out. And I think that's going to require all of us to have better relational skills, to be have more emotional maturity, to be better at negotiating these things, and to talk about the tough stuff, right? The tough stuff like, "What do I really want? Who has the power? What's not working here?" >> What's not being said? >> What's not being said. So, that idea of the settled marriage is is just not going to survive. And I think the other sort of type of marriage >> So, we're heading into the Basically, we're heading into the land of the unsettled marriage.

4:22 >> Well, let's not get too official. I don't think in black and white right. It's not settled or has to be unsettled. But, I think it's the fluid marriage. >> Okay. Fluid marriage. >> I think how can we add that fluidity, that adaptability into our relationship as opposed to kind of locking in a deal and then going for the life. I think the other thing, which we don't talk about much, is this sense of a marriage which is anchored in one person.

4:52 >> [clears throat] >> It's a little bit more psychological. I think when we think of the settled marriage, we maybe think about you're the breadwinner and I'm the housekeeper. I'm talking a little bit more psychologically. So, I think what often happens in couples is one person becomes the psychological anchor. And we see this in different ways at different stages. So, I mean, imagine for us now, it's a while ago, but imagine when our children were young, quite young, there tends to be one parent who they go to all the time when they're distressed.

5:19 >> Yeah. >> Right? And whoever that parent is tends to become the psychological anchor for the family. They're also the parent they call at 3:00 in the morning when they're drunk at university and they've not can't find their keys. They're also probably the parent that deals with death in the family, grieving. They're probably the person who doesn't have a psychological anchor themselves. That sort of stable, set anchor in a marriage, which is different from stability in terms of careers and jobs.

5:48 I think that psychological anchoring as well just cannot work across four quarters. There's got to be some give and take in that psychological realm. >> Just because of what role fatigue or the breakdown and the needs of that person at some point. >> Yeah, and I think I mean maybe we'll get on to divorce and stuff later. I think that's one of the things that is really sparking those midlife divorces is this having been that psychological anchor the whole time.

6:15 >> Yeah, [clears throat] and being resentful. Being growing resentful. >> Absolutely. And you should be if that's what you do all the time. >> We're going to get there. >> [laughter] >> Let's start with what in your research are the big inflection points for couples across these four quarter lives. >> Yeah, so I think some of these inflection points are about relational stage which is nothing to do with where we are in our lives. So let me take what let's imagine you've maybe had a first marriage and you maybe get together once your kids have left home. Maybe you're in your 50s, 60s and you sort of think well I've got everything sorted now.

6:50 Like what could go wrong? I know what I like. But of course that first inflection point in a couple where we really start to mesh our lives together requires a lot of those relational skills around negotiating what do I want? And if we haven't developed them in our first relationship, we may tell ourselves a story that that was because my ex is you know it's not very good. But it takes two to tango. And we very often carry that into subsequent relationships. So certainly what I see in my research is this sort of compulsion to repeat the same patterns if I can put it that way. And so that first transition really has nothing to do with the stage of life but is something we all bump into. I mean in terms of the stage of life, I want to talk about one which is salient for me right now and I know it's something that you've been through relatively recently too which is the empty nesting phase.

7:44 >> Okay. Which is a big transition for couples and it's a big transition because it's a huge identity transition. What tends to happen before then is I've invested 99.9% of myself in my career and in my kids. And then the kids suddenly disappear. And so it's almost a process of grief that needs to happen in a couple. Who am I now that I'm not that active parent and that can throw a lot of things up which knocks on to careers and has the kind of double knock on effect. So that's a huge inflection point that I think we are only just beginning to really understand and get to grips with.

8:24 >> And it meets two individuals in a couple in a career that could be at very very different trend lines. >> Absolutely. I also think that mid I mean obviously it depends a little bit what age you have children, but it tends to be that midlife stage where our careers are shaking out. So if we think in our 30s and 40s, whatever your potential, you can tell yourself a story that it's you have limitless, right? That it's up up up [laughter] up up. By the time we get to our mid-40s onwards, even for the least self-aware of us, it becomes pretty clear what ceiling you're going to have in your career. And there's a lot of feelings around that and I think partly that is because we're so anchored to the traditional career. You know, it's up up up up up or or there's something wrong with us. So I think partly that's about getting to grips with okay, what is a good career and if it's not that, but it raises all those feelings of oh, is this it? You know, is this all I can achieve? You know, if I can't go any further, then what? So all of these things are happening at the same time.

9:29 >> Which is another [clears throat] loss. The loss of saying goodbye to So you've lost your kids and then you lose your idea of where you were headed in your horizon. So, midlife and this is often a reset moment for couples as you say and we just saw a big report in the UK, you probably might have seen and about how women 45 to 65 are driving a surge in midlife divorces and the big conclusion to this report was they are often, a significant group of them, much happier afterwards.

9:59 >> What do you make of that? >> I'm not surprised. Yeah. [laughter] Not surprised. >> We talked to them before. >> I think it comes back to this, partly back to this anchoring role, but certainly what I found in my research is if you really drill down to what all of us, men and women, really want more than anything, we want to be seen and we want to be genuinely celebrated. Like, I see you for who you are and for your passions and I'm proud of you for doing that and I'm going to tell other people about it. Now, what we find in a heterosexual couple is that there tends to be a gender imbalance between being seen and being genuinely celebrated. And what I see in a lot of couples is on the surface, this they're okay, right? They are loving couples, they've been good parents, they on the surface support each other, right? They both contribute to the housework and stuff. It's not enough.

10:56 >> Mhm. >> And I think what happens, especially as our children leave home, is that becomes very, very clear that it's not enough. When the children are home and we're busy, we can fool ourselves that yeah, my partner's pretty supportive and he does the school run and he takes them to the doctors, we're all very good. But suddenly it becomes very clear that hang on a minute, you know, I'm not really seen for who I am and I'm not genuinely celebrated. So, I was talking to a guy the other day, he was saying, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm so pleased that my wife works, like, you know, it's so it's so great for us as a couple. I compare it to my my other friends who maybe they have, you know, it gives us more flexibility. And I'm thinking, that's great, but is that really how she wants to be seen as another contributor to the coffers? You know, whereas other guys will come and say, you know, my wife, she does this and she's super passionate about it and I'm really proud of her and I went to this event with her. That's what women want and I think that is what is very missing. And I think what can happen at this stage is for observers of those couples, it can be a bit discombobulating thinking, oh, they seemed all right. There didn't seem anything wrong there. And that's not the issue. It's not that there was something wrong, but that it was just not enough.

12:07 >> And isn't it often, are you seeing as I am, the strange trend in midlife that hits off in midlife in the 50s is for a lot of women, especially the kind we hang out with, the ambitious, educated kind who've been juggling like crazy in Q2, but all of a sudden the emptiness opens up an ascension career-wise that they might not have been [clears throat] expecting, but oh, they're absolutely thrilled have more time and they go flying at a time when a lot of men might have recognized or learned about that ceiling you were talking about and might be in a slight deceleration mode and those two energies are very hard to reconcile. Nobody's prepared for them.

12:48 >> I think it's those two energies. I would add a third thing, which I think is we focus so much on career and kids, there's been very little me time. And I think that is a time when people want to re-energize their interests. So, I don't just mean, okay, I want to sit on the couch and watch Netflix, but you know, I want to join a choir. I want to do some volunteering. I want to join a book club. Whatever it is, all these things come to the fore. And I think a lot of women get a spurt of energy. Yes, in the career, but also in going out, meeting new people, joining communities, this sense of belonging that's not tied to being a mother becomes really important.

13:29 And I think that could be quite threatening for men. >> Yeah. So, I know what your answer's going to be, but I'll ask it anyways. Is divorce the only or a necessary escape valve for for women trying to reclaim basically their voice and their agency? >> So, no. I think it might be for some couples. So, I don't want to be, you know, some couples they're so far along the road that might be the best way out.

13:54 And I'm not sort of denying that. But I think it takes a lot of work to wind it back and I think a lot of couples leave it too late to do that work. And if I were to say, what are the two things that really are not talked about in couples? The first is desire. What do I really want? And we sort of assume our partners magically know that. Well, guess what? They don't, right? And this comes this goes across every domain. So, if we think in the sexual domain, what we know is our preferences change as our children leave home. And a lot of people say, "Oh my god, it's just boring. Sex is boring." Well, have you said anything? No. You know, that sort of thing. It goes to careers, right? Now I have this more time. You know, I want to have a push. I want to change something around here. It goes to interest. And I think we assume our partners can somehow mind read what we want. And then we get annoyed that they don't support the thing we want, which we haven't told them.

14:56 >> [laughter] >> I think desire is one thing like can we become better at expressing what we want without feeling guilty or ashamed or wobbly that we're trying to claim something that maybe is a reach and you know, our partner might say, "Oh, come on. Get realistic." And I think the other thing is power. And of course, power's always an issue in couples and it's very difficult to talk about, you know, who really has the power here and how do we switch that up a bit?

15:23 >> And the general recognition that at midlife many of the things you just talk about change. The desires, the emotions, and the power balance. And that's I think such a big shocker. And your book, Couples That Work, is a wonderful debunking of the myth that love plus logistics plus that old contract is enough. What are you seeing for the most common misunderstandings they're carrying into this Q3 part, especially around power, cuz I'd love to dig into that a little bit further.

15:57 >> Yeah, so of course money equals power is a huge misunderstanding. I always think what is power? Power is the power to say what you want and be supported. Not necessarily achieve it, right? But just someone has got your back as you give it a shot. >> Yeah. >> And I think the problem with power is it's very often decided in those micro moments that rationally make sense. Oh, well, of course, you know, he got a job which was 10,000 more than mine, so of course I'd follow him, right? And it's this series of death by slow cuts, and then suddenly, as you said, the resentment you know, builds, and you know, we're in we're in a bit of a crisis situation. So I think that's one of the misunderstandings. It's not about money, it's not about who earns the most. It's who has the right to be supported in their desires. I think another big misunderstanding is that having raised children is enough. You know, if we think of raising children, it is a huge project for a couple, and it's very generative, right? You see these amazing beings grow and flourish.

17:07 It's incredible. And then they're gone. And then what is the purpose of the couple? Like every couple needs a purpose beyond raising little people to be big responsible adults. >> Yeah. And I think part of that purpose needs to be shared. It's not enough, usually, that you both have really distinct passions. There's got to be something that pulls you together. Now, for some couples, they're very enmeshed. They start a business. It's like the whole thing. It doesn't need to be that.

17:36 But there's got to be [clears throat] something, whether it's, you know, Latin dancing or cooking or something that's bringing that couple together. And I think when couples don't have that until the kids leave home and then scramble to develop it, it's pretty tricky. It's hard to suddenly pull something out of the bag that's not been there before. >> And you're still talking. What about the phase that I'm as my as I age beyond you, Jennifer, and push 65 this year, another big inflection and decoupling moment is retirement, when one or the other or both start stopping the career chapter. And then there's that whole conversation again about what this couple is, what it becomes. And I I marry that with the fact that many of us marry men slightly older than us, who then retire first and then pressure many of their partners, I hear, to kind of come on, it's time to retire.

18:33 >> Play golf. >> And play [laughter] and go traveling the world, you know. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I think, yes, that does happen. I also think one of the great things about four-quarter lives is that the line between working and retirement is becoming a lot more fuzzy. >> Yeah. >> There are less and less people who go to work one day and the next day they're never working again. And I think that's really helping couples negotiate that boundary of, you know, like sort of going like this. So, that's one thing that's really helpful. But yes, there is a difficulty when there's an age gap between couples and negotiating what that looks like. And especially when couples haven't talked about it in advance, because there can be a very strong assumption, often from the men, that when I retire, we retire.

19:20 >> [laughter] >> Um and then suddenly it becomes a shock to them that that's not what >> Your wife just got a huge promotion and she's moving to China. >> [laughter] >> I would also say it's and I think many couples found this in lockdown. It's pretty challenging to spend 24/7 together. >> Yes. >> But you know, to move from >> For love but not for life but not for lunch, like kind of that. >> Yeah, and I would go so far as saying it's probably not very healthy to go to that. So I think while we need shared projects, we also need some separate lives. And I think the problem with going cold turkey on retirement is it very often becomes, you know, those lives are together all the time. And that impacts massive aspects of our life. It impacts sociability. It also impacts our desire for each other. You know, one of the things which fosters our desire for our partners is distance.

20:10 You know, you tend to fancy your partner most when you see them across the crowded room, not when you're sat next to them in your pajamas on the sofa. >> [laughter] >> Very true. >> It's when you can't have them that you want them the most. So so that being together all the time is not very healthy for the basis of the relationship either. >> So you talk about the three transitions in dual career couples. I'm wondering if you can map that over the four quarter life expanse now. And are there new tran- are there then new transitions that emerge or do those three repeat and recycle through them?

20:46 >> So I think it's a bit of both. So I'll first of all say people are coupling later and I don't think that's a bad thing. So I certainly think the sort of first quarter >> If at all, right? >> If at all, yeah. The first quarter and into the second quarter, as I say to my adult children, you know, have fun, try before you buy, don't settle too early. So I think one of the great things of four quarter lives is that first transition is coming later, >> Yeah.

21:09 >> right? You know, certainly into the 30s, maybe even, you know, into the 40s. So, there's a sort of shunting of the transitions. And then, I think certainly the second and third transition I talk about in my book, one of which really hits at that midlife stage. >> Can you just describe what they are or name them so that >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the first transition is uh what we talked about a few moments ago, when all couples get together, it's like, how do we mesh our lives together?

21:35 That clearly is going to come wherever you couple. The second transition is really what we think of as the classic midlife transition. Usually late 30s, early mid-40s, at this time where the pressure is on, right? We probably have small primary school children, our careers are taking off. It tends to be a crunch point, you know, if you're going for partnership, that's when it is. If you're an academic going for tenure, that's when it is. If you're transitioning to being senior vice president, that's when it is. So, it's >> It's a pressure cooker going.

22:06 >> a pressure cooker going. And then, the third transition is what we were talking about, you know, when kids leave home and we sort of reorient for that last piece of our career. I think in reality, what's happening is that second transition is recycling as our careers get longer. So, if we think of that third transition, yes, it's definitely about that having more time, we've talked about that. But as our careers span into our 70s, we're probably going to have two or maybe three periods of big reinvention that are independent in some way of our life stage and our caring responsibilities and these kind of things. And this is really tricky for couples because we have to renegotiate everything. So, it really calls for us having those relational skills and being able to have those tough conversations and say the things we don't want to say and claim the things we want.

22:59 >> How do you design that? I mean, what you're saying is really just better communication and relational skill. Where do we build those? Like, we don't teach them in business school, that's for sure, although we could. >> I do. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but who else does? Does anybody else do this in business school that you know? Is this common? Becoming more >> No, it's not common and I think it needs to be because I think this idea that our careers are separate from our lives, I mean, you and I both know is ridiculous.

23:28 And if organizations want people who are focused on work when they're in work and dedicated, they need to help them manage the interface with the other side of their lives. So, I do think this is partly an organizational responsibility. I also think it's a little bit of a societal responsibility and I think this comes I mean, this marries up with the whole rise of AI and the social media things. What we see are people's relational skills are eroding. We're spending less and less time in groups, in pairs, negotiating their relationships. And so, I think across the board, on average, people are getting worse at these things. So, I think there's a lot of space for it. I also think that there needs to be you know, you wouldn't think twice or you would never be ashamed to go on a negotiations course, right? No one would say, "What are you doing that for?" You know, if you said, "I I need to be a better negotiator or I need to build my relational skills." But if you said, "I'm going on a course to build my relationships with my partner," people would be like, "Really?

24:28 What's wrong? What's wrong with you?" Which is crazy, right? So, I think there's something about destigmatizing the you know, we can all do better and even you and I and we research this stuff. We all do better in our couples. And I think destigmatizing that and providing opportunities like your podcast does in a way, right? Providing opportunities for people to think through what do those conversations look like? Because I think the mistake people make is it's all about communication. But so many couples talk to each other all the time and say nothing to each other. It's not about talking about Netflix or who's going to buy the milk or who's going to pick the kids up. It's really about, you know, what do we want? How are we going to support each other? How are we going to say how do we really see each other?

25:14 It's these conversations we need to be having. >> What? I mean, you know, we both worked a lot in business schools with lots of leaders who learn all kinds of these leadership skills and team building and forecasting and finance and budgeting and scenario planning. Why are we all so bad, it seems to me, about bringing these skills home into our families? I I just don't see it transferring over very easily. >> Because I think it is a different set of skills, actually. I think we're very good at project planning at home. I think a lot of people have the Excel spreadsheet or the Gantt chart of things. I think it's a different set of skills and the reason I think it's a different set of skills is I think at home the biggest skill is claiming. Can you claim what you want and what you need from your partner? And I think we are all, myself included, terrible at that. Terrible.

26:05 >> Why? And it's not What's the obstacle? Like, what is it? >> Yeah, so I think it's two things. I think one is we don't want to be seen as selfish. Yeah, we want to be a supportive partner. So, if I say I really need this from you, I'm going to look like the selfish one. And I also think we are shy, right? What if my partner thinks, "Are you crazy?" You know, so I think it's a combination of things, but when you flip it, it's the biggest gift you can give your partner. I always say this, right? If I think of my husband, what are the two or three things that really make a difference to him? This is going to sound super small, but I am a more massive morning person. I jump out of bed at 5:30, I'm on. He is really [clears throat] not like that. And he takes a little while to warm up in the morning. This is tiny thing, but every morning I take him a cup of tea in bed.

26:52 And I remember I did it once, and he had the foresight to tell me, "You know what? That is one of the best things you can do for me." So, now I do it. It costs me 2 minutes every morning, and yet I know I am seeing his desire. I am giving him what he needs. He can sit there. He can have a few minutes away from me jumping around the house to collect himself, drink his cup of tea.

27:15 And it has saved me so much work guessing, "What do I need to do?" >> Yeah. >> Right? But we just don't do it. >> Is it gendered? Does one gender have any better ease than the other? No. >> It certainly not in my research. I think we assume that men are going to ask for what they want, but they >> They ask at the beginning, and then it just that's part of the contract that gets anchored in, and then we never >> can get anchored, so we can assume. And I think we do this as parents, so I'll tell you a funny story.

27:42 Christmas, went home, and my mom had bought, you know, these big selection boxes of chocolates. And the white ones were left. And so, she said to me, "But But you love white chocolates." I was like, "I loved white chocolates when I was five. But not now." >> Yeah, parents are hard to reprogram. >> But I think we do that in our partners as well. We anchor on the white chocolate and keep giving them the white chocolate. It's like, "I don't like white chocolates anymore." [laughter] >> Yeah, we don't like to recognize that people change.

28:10 >> Yeah, and I think >> They're quite a Well, that's a whole other topic, right? I think that what happens when one partner is more avid or curious or interested in change, and growing, evolving, and the other holds to the contract. >> Yeah, so there's a great book by Irvin Yalom called Love's Executioner. I don't know if you've read it. And the thesis is Love's Executioner happens when one partner develops and the other stay static.

28:41 >> Mhm. >> And I see this in my research all the time. I would say though that we make a lot of assumptions around what our partner wants, especially if we've got anchored in a pattern of we're relating. The number of times I hear, "Oh, but my wife wouldn't want to have these conversations. I'm I'm absolutely certain." Like, [clears throat] it's why, you know? Or, you know, my my husband's happy where he is. He's happy in the in the way he's going.

29:08 Really? So, I Yes, that is the surefire way to kill a relationship when one develops a the other. But, I think we also have a lot of assumptions around the rate at which our partners want to develop and their capacity to development, which are probably false. >> So, you work at INSEAD, which is this big global business school. So, a lot of the people we're working with are moving all the time in all different kind of directions, but particularly geographically, which plays a big role in all of this. And so, so many couples renegotiate place quite a few times in their lives. But, [snorts] particularly over time, empty nesting, later life, they move cities, they downsize, they upsize, they split time. What have you learned? How do we better navigate mobility and some of its consequences in the context of all the >> Yeah, it's such a great question. So, I have a super practical piece of advice and then So, one of the best things I say couples can do is to get a map of the world, the continent, the country, whatever is your range, and literally get two colored pens, one color each, and circle the places that would work for you. And only places with two circles are choice options.

30:25 It sounds so basic, but it takes away a lot of friction from the table. So, that's just a really practical way of starting to deal with this. And then I would say, across our four quarters, our preferences tend to change fairly predictably. So, if we think of the first two quarters, we tend to be pretty ventures. Right. Yeah, I'll go to Australia. Oh, whatever it is. As the quarters move on, I wouldn't say we become more conservative, but we know exactly what we want. And I think we're better at projecting ourselves forward and thinking, you know, is this place going to be good for me in my 70s and 80s? And that's not always about moving back, quote unquote, home, but it tends to be moving to somewhere a bit more mindfully of the aging process. So, there tends to be a sort of shift from knee-jerk, oh, I got this opportunity in Timbuktu, let's go.

31:22 To a much more mindful thinking through. With the exception of the first few years after empty nesting. So, what's interesting is this, and I call it, I always say, are you going to have a second honeymoon or you're going to go for a walk in the desert, right? And I think the couples that can get into that second honeymoon mentality, there is quite a trend of them making some of those more whimsical, knee-jerk, let's spend a year here. You know, why don't we take a sabbatical there. So, I think that's a big. And then I think for those couples there's a question of, what makes that difference? Are you the second honeymoon couple, whether it's about moving or whether it's just about your approach to the empty nesting, or are you the kind of lost in the desert couple? Yeah.

32:07 >> I wonder too, as I listen, whether there will be a newly emergent older group that is more surprisingly adventurous. I mean, these Q3ers I'm tracking are not Q3ing like their parents did. They're likely to move into Q4 slightly differently with quite different experiences and I think motivations. When I look at I've been talking to the tra- adventure travel uh agency group recently and you know 2/3 of their clients are now in their 60s and 70s to their great surprise.

32:47 >> Yeah. >> a lot of older I'm discovering this as I get older is you really are surprised by what age is now and you don't know what you want. And so I I'm seeing a lot of people who are sort of going, "Oh, I wasn't expecting to feel this good, be this healthy, be this advantaged." >> I also think there's a trend which is then shocking our children. Which is many people end of Q3 Q4 do not want to be active grandparents. They are very happy to see the grandchildren every couple of months and when they're there, they're all in, but they do not want to look after them once a week. They do not want to be on call and I think that is a big generational shift which is quite shocking for our children who experienced their grandparents as more hands-on. So I think there's less of that let's move to where the children are dynamic is definitely really really pulling back.

33:42 >> Yes. Okay, I want to go forward in the generations as you just have pulled me there and talk about our kids and what are they up to? You've already said they are marrying later. They're also there's all this scary research I'm sure you've been watching about young women becoming increasingly more liberal and young men increasingly more conservative if not kind of reactionary and [snorts] there's pretty dramatic avoiding of marriage. We're not even talking delaying here.

34:12 >> Yeah. >> Not to mention procreation which is becoming a very rare thing in >> Yeah. >> developed countries around the world. Where are we headed? >> So baby bust. >> Baby bust for sure. >> So I think we need to be a little careful with the research on the political polarization. So I've been looking into this and when we put social class into the mix, we see a very different picture. So, traditionally we've always thought of younger generations as more left-wing and older generations as more right-wing. On average, that still holds. But what we see among the generations for the younger generation is when people are a bit poorer, a bit a little bit lower down the social hierarchy, we see more of that polarization. But in general, the trends are what they've thought of always been. But in terms of marrying later, I mean, I don't I Yeah, we're living longer, we marry later, what's the problem? Apart from maybe you and I would like a wedding to go to.

35:11 >> [laughter] >> But where are going with that? The baby bust is real. And I think it is due to a couple of factors which are not actually to do with queers. I think a lot of it is about the uncertainty in the world. And actually we saw this in the pre-war period. You know, at the beginning of the 19th century, there's a drop-off of the birth rate as well. So, we see this as people feel quite uncertain about the world, as people are uncertain about careers because of the AI mix. Having children becomes quite a scary proposition, right? Will I be able to provide for them? What will the future look like for them? So, I think this is a little bit aside from the lengthening life cycles. So, I saw a statistic the other day that by 2030, one in 10 babies will be born in Nigeria.

35:57 >> Yeah, and half the babies in the world like 2050 will be in Africa. >> Yeah. >> We're just stopping the baby. Well, and I wonder about the political only because it has been declining so steadily for so long now everywhere. >> I mean, I think it remains to be seen. I also wonder whether there is a natural floor. I don't think the ceiling is the floor. I It's a little bit like how late can you have babies? That's gone later and later, but now it's stopping because biology exists, right? You know, the average age for women is not going to get much later than mid-30s because if you know, if we know what happens to the fertility rate.

36:39 And I do I do wonder whether, you know, whether the children think I mean this is just pure conjecture, but we are mammals, we are biologically programmed to desire children. Not everybody does, but most people do. I think certainly we will the trend for smaller families will continue, but I don't think we're suddenly going to absolutely drop off a cliff. Um but yes, that trend is clearly going down. >> Okay. >> I'm slightly more hopeful. >> I'll send you a book I'm reading called The Spike, which shows just how sudden that cliff could be, but we'll we'll we'll revisit this. Maybe if we work on the relational skills of the next generation, we'll be able to adjust.

37:17 >> Or maybe if we become more active grandparents, it'll be >> [laughter] >> solved. >> I'm trying. I'm trying. Okay, now I want us then to design the future of coupledom. If you could redesign coupledom for four quarter lives, what would the updated model include? >> Yeah, that is a great question. So first of all, mandatory relational lessons starting at school. And this is not just about couples, but I do think uh relational literacy should be taught throughout the school years to really give people a good base. Platonic relationships, but also romantic relationships. So I think that's one thing.

37:56 I think the second thing is moving from this rigid idea of, you know, marriage, kids, you know, working thingy to a more fluid sense of relationships. That doesn't mean an anything goes 60s where no one commits to anyone, but really just a sense that our roles do change over a lifetime, and how can we think of this in a more fluid way rather than the kind of lockstep way we have before. And then I think developing I mean I would have loved to see like two or three practices that we imprint on couples who have coupled. If you could do three things for your couple, small really small things, what would they be? And I would say first one five minutes five minutes of undivided attention every single night. Five minutes where you just listen, you say nothing. You just listen to the other person speak for five and then you swap roles. Everyone can afford 10 minutes. Even if you have a crying baby, they breastfeed for 20 minutes. That's double your time, right?

38:59 So you know this this kind of very small practice of undivided attention. The second practice would be saying what we need and what we want from them from the relationship. And again, this isn't every day of the week. You know, maybe once a year we sit down. What are our wishes for the year? You know, maybe it's like instead of a New Year's resolution, we sit down and we say what are the things I desire this year? How can you help me get them? You know, once a year it's a really small practice. And then I think the third thing is something we're not very good at which is gratitude. And I think that's not just in our couples, but it seems to matter exponentially in our couples.

39:36 This resentment that we've sort of circled round and round very often comes from feeling underappreciated. And it takes a second to say thank you. >> Okay, good advice. We will refer people to that. And I want to close Jennifer, you're just heading into Q3 yourself turning 50. One thing that would significantly increase the odds of couples staying together. I mean, we know that the big tick in divorce and separation is this entrance into Q3, the 50s, the 60s, the gray divorce, whatever you call it. What do one practice they would need?

40:17 Obviously those three things you just said will integrate. But at that particular time and >> particular time, I think >> you need to develop a shared passion. >> Okay. >> Something that you're both passionate about that's just about you that's nothing to do with the kids that's probably not to do with your careers but that's something that's all about you as a couple that you can make generative when the the generative little people are out the door.

40:43 >> That sounds pretty doable. So, what's yours? May I ask? >> I would share passion. We are off the charts into skiing. >> Ah, very good. >> it snowed yesterday here and we were skiing down our street. >> [laughter] >> I'm going skiing this Saturday. So, I'm all there with you, but I have to leave my man behind. He doesn't ski. Well, we'll have to find another shared passion. Jennifer, a million thanks. Couples that work, we'll put the link to the book in the show notes and this will be I know an ongoing conversation of how do we become more relationally skilled and how do we get that notion of competence to build into more educational institutions like business schools?

41:29 >> Indeed. >> It would have a good impact on business if people got less separated. >> [clears throat] >> Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Aviva. >> Thank you so much to a wonderful 2026. If you enjoyed this conversation with Jennifer Petriglieri, author of Couples That Work, you'll find a link to her book in the show notes. Her core message is simple and demanding. In a four-quarter life, the couple contract can't be fixed. It has to stay alive.

41:57 That means learning how to talk about what you want, how power really works, and what purpose you share once the big projects like raising children shift or end. If this episode made you think of someone, share it with them. And if you'd like more on longevity, transitions, and living a longer life, well, you can also find me on Eldaberries. Until next time. For more thinking about the impact [music] of our four-quarter lives, you can read my column at Forbes and subscribe to my Eldaberries newsletter on Substack. Let's design lives [music] that aren't just longer, but better.

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