Building a ‘highway to the moon and back’ with Winnie Lai

0:00 This is Space Minds from Space News. In this episode, Space News Mike Gruss speaks with Winnie Lai, CEO of Areiga Space. They talk about how electromagnetic launch technology that catapults small launch vehicles could cut down on fuel costs. She describes a paradigm shift through new technology that could enable new operations in space through low cost targeted missions and what that means for Golden Dome missile defense interceptors.

0:33 Hello and welcome to Space Minds. I'm Mike Gruss from Space News and I'm joined today by Winnie Lai, the founder of Areiga Space. Winnie, thanks thanks for being here and I want to start because I think today you're at the corner of two really big talking points of the space industry and and one is launch. I think everyone's talking about launch particularly the last couple months and and the second is missile defense. And so let's start a little broader. Let's start with Areiga. Tell us a little bit about what you do and and what you're aiming at.

1:05 Absolutely and by the way thanks for having me Mike. I'm very excited to be on the podcast. So yes, so what we do at Areiga is electromagnetic launch. So the basics are hey we accelerate and launch payloads with just electricity without any chemical propel propulsion. So the technology is derived from you know the maglev train that we see in Japan.

1:35 We've pretty much taken that technology and repurposed it for other applications including missile defense as you talked about and then eventually for space transportation. So the origin of the company is like we when I look at rockets, right? Rockets are highly inefficient machines. less than 2% of the rocket mass, right? Is the payload that makes it into the or into orbit, right? So, our goal at Auriga is to try to reduce the amount of fuel that the rocket has to carry because like per the rocket equation the heavier your rocket the more fuel you have to carry. And that becomes a you know a a spiraling problem, right? So, our goal is to eliminate you know part of the rocket fuel use in a traditional rocket by essentially catapulting a small launch vehicles into space.

2:47 And when when I think when you know you you hear that phrase electromagnetic launch, the Maglev train is is a great analogy there, but I think I think sometimes people think of like replacing rockets, and it doesn't sound like that's exactly what you're saying. It's like it's more helping the rocket along the way, correct? Absolutely. That's yeah, our goal is not to replace rockets, right? Our goal is to be like complementary to rockets. Rockets will always have its place in space and defense, right? What we're saying is like hey, we just want to give the rocket a little push, right? Same goes for the EMALS on aircraft carriers.

3:28 You know, the electromagnetic aircraft launchers in which aircrafts are being launched off of a naval carrier with the similar principle, right? At the end of the day, right? We're just trying to save fuel. We're just trying to you know make the launch process a lot more efficient. And that can be you know for hypersonic testing. That can be launching vectors for missile defense. That can even be launching hey drone fixed wing drone aircrafts or even eventually hey launch launch vehicles. There I I I think there's probably a number of challenges you need to work through here, but one is you know, from a payload perspective a lot of times satellites I think are probably not designed to withstand that level of maybe acceleration. I could be wrong there, but but how do you how do you spacecraft have to change before this could become maybe a practical a practical application for a for a lot of folks. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the underlying assumption is that hey, our initial customers isn't going to be like hey, some sort of like delicate like a delicate like satellite customer. Right. Right. We're talking about like ruggedized payloads. So, you know, think about hey, what's needed in orbit, right?

4:49 Years from now. One is going to be the constant resupply of fuel. As we all know geopolitically there's a dog fighting quote unquote dog fighting that's happening in space, right? And our satellites need fuel to be able to maneuver. Hey, we can launch fuel. That's one use case. Another use case is hey, launching ruggedized like small satellites that survive to that's designed to survive high acceleration. We've seen it. We're seeing it in other industries, right? So, we're going to just go back to like hey, missile defense, right?

5:33 Interceptors some interceptors are being launched out of a gun. It's a very violent like high G acceleration. And yet like hey, we've been able to design you know, payloads we use and like hey, the military has been able to design payloads that can survive those those those acceleration. And you know, for us like we're talking about like hey, something that's a lot more controlled given that we are building a modular system we can control the acceleration via software, but also by making the launch tube a little longer. Yeah. Yeah. Do you I I I think one one theme that's been particularly a a hot topic this summer has been this idea of a launch bottleneck.

6:21 that hey, look at late '28, early '29, folks are again particularly nervous that there there may not be enough rockets to meet the demand to put to put satellites in orbit. Where do you Where do you see yourselves in that conversation? And is this a moment for and and pardon my phrasing here, but but but kind of for alternative or or non-traditional launch providers? Mhm. Absolutely. And I think at the end of the day, right? If space If we believe that space is going to become a you know, a trillion-plus economy, we just need more ways to get into space, like period, right? Whether that be like traditional or whether that be alternative you know, space launch.

7:07 at the end of the day, like we just have to figure out how to get more payloads into space. in terms of like he limitations and constraints, right? with with supply, especially with the news that SpaceX is going to be discontinuing their rideshare program post 2028, you know, that's an opportunity for Uriga, but it's also an opportunity for all of the other you know, space companies. the way we see Uriga is hey, we're we're kind of like the FedEx or we're kind of like the Uber, you know, to space. If you look at a rideshare manifest, it takes months to plan. and not only that, you're sharing the ride with you know, dozens of other payloads. Right. I don't know about you, but I don't like taking the bus.

8:04 I like taking an Uber or a taxi so that I can be more time efficient. Yes, you know, it's more expensive but that being said, right? I can get dropped off exactly where I'd like to like to and and that's a value value proposition for Auriga is that hey, it's anywhere at you know, at any time right on your own schedule. Yeah and and I think like besides commercial, right? I think a big one of the big value proposition that you know, the defense industry is looking at is that responsiveness. You know if we need to get something into space very quickly hey, we need to be looking at alternative solutions that are more nimble that don't take a long time to to integrate and just for contacts like right now we can do six launches in a minute.

9:09 I'm not saying that hey, that's going to be the cadence that we're going to go after for space launch but I just to give you a sense of like the paradigm shift you know, from having to you know, spend days if not weeks preparing for a launch versus like you know, making it like train work, right? You know, I'm seeing that more and more that the the Space Force in particular wants launches in you know, 24 hours notice and and I think those numbers are probably only going to come down, right? Yeah, absolutely. What we're saying is like hey, we could like drastically lower that, right? Like why not in like hours like less than an hour. So that's the launch cadence that we're looking at. Mhm. What do you have to do to convince between now and let's say 2030 to convince folks that hey, I I don't like I might not have a ride on you know, a ride share mission or I'm looking for my next rocket to get to orbit. What do you have to do between now and then to convince them that that hey, this might be a viable option for for their company. Absolutely. And like for us, it's all about hey, technology development, right?

10:19 we're not there yet today, but we know what we need to do in order to get there. it's a matter of scaling our technology. and that's why hey, we are taking a, you know, crawl, walk, run approach, right? First by commercializing our technology for a high high hypersonic testing. you know, we got we got contracts with commercial as well as DOD partners to offer that capability. we're also, you know, scaling our technology up for counter drone and missile defense, right? Which is another like area that is highly highly in demand today. and it's just a matter of like scaling up in terms of hey, the being able to launch larger size payloads at higher speeds. So, the way to see Aretege is like hey, we're not just a like {quote} space launch company, but rather hey, we're developing some foundational technology that can be applied in different areas. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that that's a nice transition because you guys, like you mentioned, you're working on a hypersonic testing, you're working with missile defense, counter drone. I think this all falls under the this broader defense umbrella that is out there, but I think a lot of these are also some of the problems we're hearing about that that Golden Dome hopes to solve. So, so how do you see the common technological problems that that you're solving? And how do you see yourselves fitting into this ecosystem where where like I said, hypersonic missile defense, counter drone, those are all Yep.

12:04 top of mind. Absolutely. and it just goes back to efficiency. so, let's talk about missile defense, right? Let's talk about like, hey, what's currently being used to intercept you know, threats. a common you know, missile that we hear about in the news today is like the Patriot 3 missile, right? It's a four-ish million-dollar interceptor. we've unfortunately you know, expended more than 70% of our stock in the most recent like Iranian conflict, and it's going to take us years to replenish, right? But, if we take a step back and look at the PAC-3 missile, a big portion of that is the rocket motor, and then your payload, your effective like interceptor or your effector, right? is that tiny little payload up front.

13:00 So, again, right? Like, there's an opportunity to use alternative launch technology to make that launch process more efficient. Why carry the propulsion with the effector when essentially we can launch it out of a fully reusable, electrically powered, low-cost launch platform? and that's what we enable, right? We enable the delivery of interceptors, and we're a multi-mission launch platform. Meaning, we don't care what the payload is, right? So, we can swap out for different kinds of payloads, as long as it fits within our launch our launch dimensions, launch tube dimensions, then hey, we're able to launch it. So, from a value proposition perspective is like one, we enable deeper magazine cuz you're no longer having to store these large, you know, missiles. Two, From a sheer size perspective. Yeah, from a sheer size perspective, right? Two, hey, you're talking about hey, drastically lowering the cost of intercept, right? Rather than hey, launching these multi-million-dollar missiles against like thousand-dollar like threats, hey, we now finally have a, you know, solution in which we can fix the cost asymmetry problem that we're seeing. And then finally from a mass manufacturing perspective, it's just a lot easier and faster to manufacture something small than it is to manufacture something big, right? especially given like the challenges that we're seeing today in the market was just a shortage of solid rocket motors. you know, the Pentagon is pumping in more dollars into building out that infrastructure to build the solid rocket motor supply supply chain. that's going to take time. you know, and here we are like we got another like solution that is just kind of out of the box, right?

15:03 that is capable of like solving the same the same challenges. So So talk to me a little bit about the schedule then before, you know, before you guys can become maybe a trusted partner to to DOD here. I know you you've had some contracts with AFWERX, but but what do you need to do to be to to convince, you know, DOD leadership like, "Hey, there there is there's another solution here. Maybe we can help, you know, extend that magazine depth. We can help lower that cost per shot." What do you What do you all need to do and what's that schedule look like to to help become maybe a little bit more of a player in that area. Mhm, absolutely. And you know, the the the good thing is like, "Hey, the the partners that we're speaking to within you know, the defense department understand like the concept." because by the way, like there's been like history which is aka the rail gun. you know, although like we we we take on a different technological approach to the rail gun, so we get around some of like the heating as well as wear and tear problems that they have, right? but conceptually, people understand you know, the concept of launching smaller projectiles and by eliminating the the onboard propellant. So, you know, so from a perspective from the perspective of having to convince our DOD partners, like that's solved, right? They understand that. What they would like to see, right, is demonstration capability. and this is where we're working with the Army on demonstrating our counter-drone capability. earlier this year we signed a CRADA with them for that very specific reason. and you know, and also we have ongoing conversations with other relevant groups within the Department of Defense to to roll out this technology.

17:03 Yeah. I mean, you you guys also demonstrated Hermes earlier this year from a which is help me out here, but it's a launcher from a shipping container, correct? Correct. And and, you know, what what did that help maybe win over some skeptics or what's the next next milestone you need to see there to to maybe to prove out that technology a little bit more. For sure. So, I I I wouldn't say that we have skeptical like yeah, no, no, no. I I think like people, as I said like, you know, understand you know, the benefit of of this capability. It's just a matter of working you know, together to hit the technological like I I guess like the the capability aspects that they would like to see before fielding this capability.

17:53 so, yeah, so but just going back to what is Hermes, essentially it's our 10-ft you know, stand-alone containerized launch platform. we're able to launch supersonic projectiles out of that launch platform and the concept is that, hey, we can take down drones drone threats, you know, kinetically and using different types of effectors at very low cost and also be able to have a very, you know, high launch rate.

18:25 So so our next demonstration will be sometime in the fall. We're going to incorporate additional features. So you know, we take on a agile development approach in the sense that hey, we want to get our products out in the field, tested, demoed as quickly as possible because that's a way to learn, right? Learn from for ourselves but also learn from our government partners on hey, what else would they like to see before we turned this into a fieldable capability. But we say like hey, we're we're we're getting close. We're getting close.

18:58 Like we got the building blocks, right? From our from our core electromagnetic launch technology. It's just a matter of adding like some additional features so that such that it's readily deployable in the battlefield. One one area I was curious about with this is I think obviously there's been a lot of discussion about NASA and its its moon base. Do you see or can you envision a world where there's electromagnetic launch for somewhere like the moon? Does that does that make sense or are there Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.

19:37 That's on our road map. That's on our road map, right? Of building this on the moon. It's Yeah, it's like we're already developing, you know, the the foundational technology, right? If you think about like how we're going to get this to the moon, think about Hermes, right? We're already containerizing our launch platform. So hey, let's put that onto a rocket and like, you know, get it to the moon and it can be assembled. It's a modular launch platform. So so that's how we're thinking about it. But the benefit of like putting such system on the moon is like hey, it enables rapid launches of various like payloads from the moon like out the back to Earth or to a geosynchronous orbit. believe it or not, right? It's actually takes less like launch energy to launch from the moon to a geosynchronous orbit than it would be from Earth to to the geosynchronous orbit. so, yeah, the concept isn't new, right?

20:43 if you read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, right? There's a mass driver on the moon. so, yeah, and we're on a path to getting there. In some ways it's actually going to be simpler from a technological perspective to launch things from the moon cuz it's lower escape velocity, but also, hey, no atmospheric drag. So, so, yeah, so we'd like to see that happen one day, hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm I'm optimistic, especially given the NASA initiatives. so, maybe we'll see that within the next 10 years. Yeah.

21:19 Yeah. I want I want to look at a little bit of a shorter time frame. Let's Let's talk about the next year. I know it was roughly a year ago or so that you guys came out of stealth. You've had a funding round there. you've had some contracts. You mentioned a a test coming up this fall. What are some of the other milestones that that we should be looking for from you all in the next 12 to 18 months? Absolutely. And like we're always building always building, always launching, always pushing forward. so, some of our near-term goals is to, hey, work with our government customers to on our on the capabilities that we said we're going to deliver, right? one is on the hypersonic testing side. we're continuing to deliver capabilities to that group, bring lower cost, higher cadence, and also flight representative testing on the ground, right? so, we're we're working on that. And then, concurrently, right, continuing to advance our counter-drone and counter-missile technologies through our containerized Hermes launch platform. and these are the benefit is like hate or technology that's going being developed for these two groups are foundational, right? So, they can be shared across platform. So, yes, we got a very exciting year ahead and yeah, expect us to I guess make more announcements. Good. Yeah, good. Let's now let's go a little longer like you said.

22:50 Let's go look out 2030, 2035. What how do you envision how it could be used particularly from the suborbital realm in in launching? So, my vision, right? Is like Arete is a space transportation company. Like all the way like building highways from the ground to the moon and back, right? we covered hate the ground to space. We also covered the moon to space, but there's also an element in which I think we can put our launchers up in space for orbital transfers, right? With some ways like we're already doing that with Hermes, right?

23:35 Containerizing it, but you know, rather than then integrating onto a shipping container, think about integrating that onto a satellite. You know, we can enable responsive, right? Chemical list orbit orbital transfers of payloads. So, that is this own utility in space. And like that's really where the vision lies, right? Like why stop at you know, ground to space. You know, there should be a highway. Like Arete should be enabling a highway, you know, all the way up to the moon and back.

24:10 Great. Well, looking forward to it. Weng, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks thanks to all our viewers for turning in. You can catch up on all our news at spacenews.com and thanks for watching. I'm Mike Gruss with SpaceNews. Thanks for having me, Mike. Yep.