A Pint with... Mark Zuckerberg

0:00 Imagine being like, "Hi, Mark. How are you?" And then he just be like Yeah. >> A naked sculpture of his wife made as as a goddess with with wings. >> The wings were covering her genitalia. >> I was about to say disappointingly little genitalia, but what I mean by that >> >> So, we've organized a solo cup for Mark, a red solo cup. He's drinking his rosé straight from it in his salomons. >> But do we think he'd be good in bed? Cuz we were talking about that at the start, and I'm genuinely interested in Do you think he'd put in a shift?

0:28 >> >> This is a Pint With, where we try to answer the age-old question of whether we'd enjoy go for a pint with a great and glorious leader of our times. And who better to start with than one of the greatest leaders of the modern era, Mark Zuckerberg? >> What do you If we were to say like, you know, go enjoy go for a pint, what do we actually mean by that? What does being good at the pub mean?

0:55 >> It's being fun, isn't it? It's being a sort of fun, charismatic, energetic presence. >> But being able to get home yourself, you know, being fun but not having to >> to be a a mess. Sure. I I'm not sure there's that much danger with that with Mark. >> >> Mark Zuckerberg, I'm going to sleep, but yeah, you want to be fun but not too fun, engaging but not too much. >> And I think I think what we're really looking for as just a starting criteria is is he bringing a PR team? Are there going to be any talking points that he's prepped? Or is he just showing up as as the true Mark Zuckerberg, whatever that means?

1:29 >> I feel like that's it, isn't it? Cuz he we we're assessing the idea of just you're going for a pint with the man rather than it's like a media opportunity. Cuz you're not This isn't like are you going for the story? In the same way that you'd be like, "Would you shag Mark Zuckerberg?" Well, yes, I'd shag Mark Zuckerberg for the story. But you wouldn't actually want to. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I I personally wouldn't want to Mark >> >> old dead eyes, mate. Like This is actually really helpful if you're wearing the magic glasses.

1:57 >> of effort in. >> I didn't think I think it would start out terribly and then several months later he'd come back unbelievable. >> He would recalibrate. He would recalibrate. >> He starts off like he's got like a helmet on. He looks awful. He's like so shaky. He looks how I would surfing cuz I've been I've been surfing I've been bodyboarding and I perforated my eardrum whilst doing it. >> So I don't know if this is a metaphor for your sexual confidence but I'm not I'm we're not in the scope of this podcast assessing his sexual confidence.

2:25 But >> There is There is >> There is we can to some degree but there is this ineffable quality I agree to >> Isn't it about the law? >> >> to what it means what it means to be worth spending an evening with in the pub. >> In the pub crucially in the pub. >> I think maybe we'll also just set the terms of engagement here which is are we going for one pint or two pints?

2:47 And would that change your answer? >> Two plus. >> It has to be two yeah. >> Yeah you don't know where it goes from there but it is two plus. >> Yeah you can't one is two is I think >> thinking about that Liam Gallagher interview where he's like you're not going for one are you? Who goes for one? It's two. Has to be two. >> So so then I'll hold each of you to your starting answer and then maybe we'll work through a few characteristics that might emerge during the the first or second pint. Josh would you enjoy going for a pint with Mark Zuckerberg?

3:12 >> I think on balance no. I My source of interest in Mark Zuckerberg is that he is a fascinating figure for that you know it so it would be for the story but I'm also very scared of him because you know he's created a big empire and I'm a kind of lay person as someone who uses meta and whose job and life comes from meta. So I would be terrified of upsetting the great emperor. >> It's exciting to see the emperor there wasn't it?

3:41 >> I just I just wouldn't feel worthy of the emperor. I I just any bad interaction I feel so I'm I'm I'm going to say >> So so Josh is is starting at a no and and it's true 354,000-ish followers do depend on it at Josh Berry >> comedy. a play to build that number. What a >> >> What a brave man. I'd say on balance, no, but it's from a place of unworthiness. No, it is also from a place It is from a place of data and privacy issues.

4:06 No, no, I just don't I just don't know if I don't think he's I don't think he'd have a great vibe, if I'm being honest. And let's be honest, he probably isn't listening to this. I don't think he would be a particularly fun social presence. >> He'd be fun to watch. >> If you are listening, Mark, we're sorry. >> Josh is a no for both a sense of of of being a a part of his dominion and also for your own social media following. Lucas, how about you? Would you go for a pint with Mark Zuckerberg?

4:31 >> I'm kind of on the fence. Like, I'm a you know, he's a big, you know, history of Rome guy. I I dabble in history of Rome, you know. So, I think we'd be able to talk about stuff. >> When was the last time you thought about the Roman Empire? >> >> Yeah, I'm more of a Punic War guy, actually. So, it's anyway. >> Is he going to film it, you know? Is he safe to stand next to any rhinestones?

4:50 Or has he got his meta glasses on? The light comes on. >> Well, he knows everything about you anyway. >> Yeah, exactly. He insists that he's not filming and my privacy is completely respected. >> So, imagine the meta glasses have come off. If you just assess him sort of deep down at as a human, maybe at one and a half pints in, would you would you be enjoying yourself? Would you would you go for that pint?

5:12 >> I'm saying I'm going for it, but yeah, it would be terrible. >> Okay. I'm going for it, yeah. >> And what's Sorry, just to clarify, it's a one-on-one. It's not a group thing. You're not asking will he fit in with your mates. You're asking if you got to sit across from this guy, you've got to think that's worth getting off the sofa for. >> How would you What would that experience be like? >> Well, he leaves a lot of pauses before he speaks. So, I imagine there'd be a lot of silence. Do you know what I mean?

5:35 He he asked a question and then he just sort of like goes He would be very fine with a kind of half half a minute silence. >> But is he leaving the space no matter what? Like, if If small talk, big talk, he's leaving the space. >> Yeah, I can imagine being like, "Hi Mark, how are you?" And then he just be like, "Yeah." Like and then just nothing would be Do you know what I mean? Like I can imagine him not filling any space.

5:59 >> Is he Is he enjoying that? Like is he computing? He's sort of like a chat GBT, but one of the early versions where it was quite slow. And he's perfectly satisfied, or is that a Is there a deep sense of awkwardness and shame in that experience for him? >> Or is he trying to make you feel uncomfortable? >> Oh. >> He's saying again. >> trying to live through you and like just leave the gap so that you like incriminate yourself?

6:21 >> What would that conversation sound like? >> >> Well, like nothing, right? Mark, how are you doing? Yeah. >> >> Like the Theo Von interview where he's like Theo Von's like, you're like, I I can't even do it. What the is that as an impression? He's like, you don't even You don't seem like a real dude. And he's like, "Oh no, yeah. I'm I'm pretty weird." And like And then just there's like 10 seconds of silence. So that would be most of it, I think.

6:48 >> The opening of that interview is I I didn't know who Theo Von was. I thought maybe he was like an incel or a manosphere guy. Turns out he's just a comedian. >> that could be accurate. >> Yeah, maybe. I mean, >> >> but but I I I read he was a comedian, but the the very opening when I watched that interview is he says, "You ever drink coffee?" And it There's just Mark Zuckerberg goes, "No." And then there's just 15 to 20 seconds of silence.

7:12 Which is the editors made a bold choice just to leave that there. And he then has a whole bit about how he doesn't take anything that influences his his his mind. So he takes it recreationally. >> Recreationally. He's like, "I I take coffee recreationally on vacation." >> As opposed Oh, yeah, no, I've seen that. As opposed to what though? Like surely people are just drinking coffee but what he thinks is like a performance enhancing drug. >> >> Yeah. But maybe that's his lens on the world is everything he's doing is sort of somehow performance related. I mean, and to be clear, this is the post This is the new Mark Zuckerberg, who I think would view, you know, everything he does, the the fighting and the I don't know what are his other recreation The meat The meat slaying.

7:53 >> The kill Yeah, the killing of animals and cooking the animals. >> So, maybe we can divide our answers with early and late. And I think I would I would spend I would enjoy a pint with early Mark Zuckerberg. I'd go to the pub. And I think he would also come to the pub as an active decision. I think late Mark Zuckerberg would be brought to the pub for the interview. And it would be Oh, sorry, for the pint.

8:15 And it'd be an excruciating 2 hours. I would not enjoy it a second of it. >> One, he would just be like moving the conversation continuously to talk about Meta products. He'd be wearing the Meta glasses. >> He'd be wearing the Meta glasses. >> be coming on. >> Yeah. I think he The PR team do their very best to give him the the three bits he's got to talk about in each interview. But he's actually pretty bad at even working his way through those.

8:37 >> Well, you cuz he's said that he feels insecure about the fact that he's not very good at that, right? He said he's developed like a complex around it. But I But I don't I'm I'm not sure I buy the idea that early him would have been not that, right? Like surely you're such You're such a social get worse as you age. >> >> Yeah. >> What would he be wearing? >> What does he wear at the He wears like a gold chain and like a kind of a boxy T-shirt. He looks kind of like a drug dealer now. That's his vibe.

9:08 Whereas before it would be like What was it like a black T-shirt? >> The original Mark Zuckerberg, I think his clothing choices sort of are like Maslow's hierarchy. So, at first he just needed sort of warmth, food, protection. And so, he just wore a hoodie. And there was no consideration at all. And then he sort of moved up through What's the middle one? Love. So, there's a bit about love on the on the on the pyramid.

9:28 So, love was basically wearing a suit cuz he wanted the regulators to love him cuz that was that sort of period of time where he said he's going to wear a suit. What was it every day for a year or every day? >> Yeah, yeah. It was a point where he was >> wearing a tie around the financial crisis to show that he was taking the financial crisis seriously. So it was his New Year's resolution to wear a tie every single day in 2009.

9:47 >> And there's something in that. You can tell that for a man who has grown up, he grew up as a terminally online before the rest of us got there. And then he sort of observed some human things. He obviously decided that the sort of human way of expressing empathy for people who weren't multi-billionaires during the financial crisis was to wear a suit and tie. Which any PR consultant would have said that's a really that's the wrong way around, Mark. You know, don't don't wear the suit.

10:11 >> Yeah. >> But then then like at the very top then there's self-actualization. And I think the self-actualization for Mark is wearing less and less because now the the jujitsu Mark likes to get a lot of Instagram content out of him topless. >> And he is shredded. Like he's he is in shape now. It like but and yet I still don't feel a sort of masculine I don't feel in awe of his masculinity. You know? I don't I don't look at him and go, "Oh, wow, he's got Not least cuz he's a billionaire and he's got all these people who are like sparring with him doing BJJ, but they're not going to beat him, are they?

10:45 >> Wait, what's BJJ? >> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So they're like he's like grappling with these guys like, "Oh, it's so great such great masculinity." But he It's like when Bill Ackman plays tennis with people and he's at tennis and he's got enough money that like Jack Sock is there like just feeding him a volley and he's like, "Oh, I'm amazing." >> Yeah, it's like he may be good at Jiu Jitsu, but like >> how would he ever find that out?

11:07 >> Well, in that Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I don't I don't know I don't look at him and go like, "Oh, he's like a sort of aspirational figure." >> If he did come for a pint, he is a man that would commit to it. Let me take you through a couple of his New Year's resolutions. 2010 learn Mandarin fluently. Does he speak Mandarin fluently now?

11:37 >> No. >> Okay. As most New New Year's resolutions. >> As a as a non-fluent, but better than Mark Zuckerberg Mandarin speaker I can say the disparity between his YouTube comments from Chinese people impressed by his Mandarin and the actual quality of his Mandarin is very very large. >> >> He sucks at Mandarin. >> No, I was going Do you think he thinks he's good at Mandarin? >> he's better than he is. I would say both the his his Mandarin is a tonal language.

12:03 So, if you use the wrong tone, you completely get the word wrong. His tones are really bad. But, also just the vocabulary range is limited, as you'd expect from a man who's like otherwise very busy trying to learn a very difficult language. But, unfortunately, the public on YouTube will tell him he's really good. >> Yeah. So, 2012, now China have banned Facebook from China. So, yeah, the Mandarin's off the table. code every day >> bad. >> Code every day on brand.

12:30 >> Code every day. >> On brand. Surely that's he's doing that >> That's his thing. He loves building. >> That's That's That's a rubbish list. >> That's awful. >> I think he wanted a bank year, right? He wanted a bank year. >> >> So, 2012, 2012, I'm going to brush my >> 2014, work at Facebook. >> >> It's his equivalent. Yeah. 2013, meet someone outside of Facebook every day. What does he mean by that?

13:01 >> that's for him probably very difficult to do. >> Yeah. >> Because he's that's his his entire life. So, would he like walk into a cafe in in Where is Facebook even? I mean, some sort of small satellite town outside San Francisco? >> Right. >> So, there wouldn't be many people around who don't work at Facebook. >> Can you imagine him trying to meet you in a supermarket and how like terrifying that would be? >> While he's doing it tick-boxy for his resolution.

13:26 >> But, hey, I just wanted to meet you. How are you? Like that's genuinely stuff of nightmares. It's awful. It has a feel of when Rory Stewart slept over with people. It was like, do you remember that? It was like Sleep over with Rory. Let me stay in your house. >> Wait, terrible. >> he sleep over with? >> Rory Stewart swore he would sleep in a different person's house every night of the election campaign. The thing is he's so sexually non-threatening it kind of works, right?

13:52 >> Yeah. Mark Zuckerberg is quite socially non-threatening, but I think he'd find it immensely to approach someone in the street and just meet them. But >> That was actually That was actually when he was at Harvard, that was one of his resolutions though, was to sleep in someone's >> Exactly. But I mean would But also does Mark Zuckerberg ever report back on the metrics, as a man who loves data, from this effort? Do we know how many people he met?

14:13 >> I don't know. I I think he's if he's saying he's going to do it, he's going to do it. Just like his Mandarin. >> He he he'd show his hand. He'd be like, "Hi, I'm trying to meet you because I want to meet so you know, he'd do it like that. >> 100% He'd be up front about it. So, 2014, write a thank you note every day. >> Who's he thanking? >> Yeah. >> Given that he's not meeting anyone new, he's thanking people probably in his inner coterie, but just repeatedly.

14:38 >> Yeah, it's just different Roman emperors. You know, you've just got different ones you can keep bringing up. is it or does he mean like a gratitude list? Is that what he means? >> It's like a gratitude journal, but he's sending it He's sending it to them, you know. Thank you, Cheryl, for keeping the show on the road. Thank you >> Thank you for not running away from me in the supermarket when I was trying to meet you. I really appreciate that.

14:58 >> The double whammy. 2015, read a book every 2 weeks. >> That seems completely achievable relative to meeting people for him. Doesn't require any social interaction. >> Yeah, he's gone back after >> That's very much a code every day resolution, isn't it? >> Build a home AI with the voice of Morgan Freeman. >> Yes, I saw him. run 365 miles. >> The latter, run 365 miles, is definitely harder for Mark Zuckerberg than building a home AI with voice recognition because I saw a video of that home AI. And even sort of pre-chat GPT, it was really embarrassingly basic for a man who codes every day.

15:37 >> It was like Alexa. >> It was like Alexa, but much worse than Alexa in that same year. >> Do you think he was criticized for like the easier ones and therefore we combine the two? The run 365 miles. >> Do you think anyone criticizes him, though? >> Or maybe it's one of the people who gets in to like slag him off. >> That is such a funny idea. You the fact that you you're so successful you have to employ someone to be like, "Mark, that's mate."

15:58 >> >> But he did take that from Augustus. So that you know, it's it's a sort of 2,000-year-old idea. >> Yeah, the protection against dictatorship, though. >> I do rate him for doing that. >> No, it's really good. You should do it, but I just I just like just some guy who's like a complete loser by comparison just slagging him off. I just find that funny as a concept. >> >> Like a jester. >> That's a email, Mark.

16:18 >> A Shakespearean fool in his house. >> 2017, visit and meet someone in every US state. That was when people thought that he may run for president. >> The fact that he's committing to meet someone every US state implies he's thinking about running for president, which, given that it's a big challenge for Mark to meet someone new every day and he's going to make a resolution around it, makes me think he wouldn't love the life of a president. The sort of constant handshaking.

16:42 I don't think that's his natural environment being president of the United States. >> But you say that. I don't think it's his natural environment being in those public situations, yet he always pushes himself forward. The fact that he is always doing the There's no need for him to do it all the time. >> to come for the pint, but not good when he's there. >> Or do you think he'd Do you think what Yeah, how would he greet you?

17:05 >> I think he would I think he'd just get his head down. >> Does he shake hands? >> Does he do the double Does he hug? >> Is he there before you and he's already sitting? >> Yeah, he's definitely doing that. And then you arrive and he's like Like that's how you do it, and he'd follow you. That it would be like that. There'd be no physical contact. >> >> All right, 2018 feels like big corporate fix Facebook platform abuse and election interference.

17:30 >> And and this is where the PR team had changed. Because before this, they were quite personal. Sometimes they were a bit funny. And now the the resolution is just do your job, man. Just fix >> Be a new person. >> Yeah. >> Stop bullying and hatred. >> Prevent bullying. >> Prevent child sexual exploitation. Those are the basics of your year, I think. They're not the resolution. >> Also, what's really funny about The funny thing about child sexual No.

17:54 >> >> What What is funny No, it's not like we're going to >> Which I hate. >> It's not like it Which I hate. But the funny, if I may say No, I've got to in a real run-up to this. It'd better be good. But he It's funny because it implies that prior to that point, it wasn't really that important. >> Yes. >> It was that 2016 or the child sex sex exploitation was like, "Well, that's fine, whatever."

18:16 >> Yeah, the 2012 he's just coding every day. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I'm doing my I'm I'm doing my gratitude journaling. I can't I can't stop there. I can't stop child sex exploitation. >> And and on the 31st of December that year, it was it could run again. >> >> It was one year focus job. >> Right, that's enough of that. It's like Lent. >> Exactly. 40 days of no >> Yeah, I want to see what he's given up for Lent. It's just and then 2019 host public debates on tech and society.

18:45 >> So, again, that's >> The PR guys have got to go. >> Yeah, that's very PR. And then in 2020, they were like, "Mark, Jesus Christ, man. These resolutions are shit." >> That's that's a >> Yeah, you need to start beating people up. >> Augustus wouldn't have done that. >> I think the the I don't know how you both are in your in your personal life with resolutions. but I think the presence of a resolution it sort of like it's like fairies in Peter Pan. It's sort of like but reversed. Resolutions only exist so you can tell people about them.

19:12 >> Mhm. >> Otherwise, it's just a thing in your head you want to do. Like, I want to lose weight. But since you declare it to people, it's like someone has to hold you accountable to it. I think Mark Zuckerberg the the the fighting thing, it wasn't a resolution because he probably genuinely there was some part of Mark that wanted to be punched in the face or punch someone. Because he didn't genuinely want to prevent abuse on the platform.

19:32 He was just informed he had to do that. So, he made it a public resolution. >> What's funny about that for me is it feels like a sort of natural extension of you know the the sort of stereotype of like you know the the CEO is used to bossing people around all day. A lot of CEOs want to go see dominatrixes. But then if you own a platform that is maybe the most powerful in the world and you're the fifth richest man in the world, that graduates to being hit in the face. Like there's clearly some aspect of his daily life that he wants to escape by just being punched.

19:59 >> Yeah, so the sort of the zenith of existence is to be punched. And you work up through the billions to get to to be punched. We've decided what we're whether we're going or not. >> Yeah, no, maybe any any yes. >> I could be convinced. I could be convinced. But that's my initial reaction. >> best. Where where are we starting, Lucas, in terms of sort of the the eras or characteristics of Zuck? >> Well, I guess first thing to start is okay, you've invited him. You know he's coming. What's he like beforehand?

20:31 What's he like on the group chat? >> What is he like in the group chat? >> He's in the group chat, yeah. Yeah. >> Is he blanking you? Is he sending you a calendar invite? >> He strikes me as a very He's a very seen guy. Like he's he's seen Is there a lot of double ticks? >> Two blue ticks? >> Yeah. >> have the blue ticks on, do you think? Because he's got to use the features of his own products. But >> Yeah, but one of the core features is turning off.

20:51 >> Turning off, yeah. Are you that kind of guy? >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah, big time. Big time. >> Yeah, I feel like he would turn it off. Mine is on, but just out of laziness. Not It's not like a purposeful thing. I feel like he would have his the the ticks would be off. >> Do you think you get a meme out of out of or a gif maybe out of Mark Zuckerberg? >> I feel like he's texting like most dads, you know, okay full stop.

21:10 >> Capital letter on the O? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no There's nothing more than that. >> But just based on how he texts like >> in his Harvard days. >> Yeah. >> And he's just like it's all in text speak from like the naughties. >> And I've read his emails, not I didn't hack in, but there were public trove emails released in the I don't know the Facebook files or something. He's actually boringly articulate and clear and not irate unlike unlike Steve Jobs.

21:35 in in his emails to people. So it's possible he would just be the boring dad in the group chat. See you there. Really looking forward to catching up, Lucas. Mine's a Mine's a full ass. >> What? Some Yeah, he's double spacing a lot. Like he's not sending multiple messages. You think he's an earnest guy? I don't know if you'd ever get that out of him though. I don't know if he'd ever be like can't wait to see you later.

21:52 >> Yours Yours not. >> Yours Kermit, yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think actually there's this kind of edgy weird dorky humor side to Mark that might get up the keyboard, use the gif feature, send you like a I don't know a WWF slam down video or something like that, you know, I'll definitely be there. Slam. I don't know if WWF is his thing what his exact >> Fighting. >> fighting preferences. But but maybe there's that that sort of edgy side to him. It's And it's the same side to him that had a a a naked sculpture of his wife made as as a goddess with with wings to put in his front garden.

22:29 >> the wings were covering her genitalia. But she Yeah, 7 ft but clothed. >> Is that she I was about to say disappointingly little genitalia. But what I mean by that >> >> What I mean by that is it's very very covered. It's not actually very revealing as a as a statue. >> Oh, forget What's the point of that? And why is she turquoise? >> that was her comment? You can't see me. >> More more silver.

22:52 >> Where am I? Why is she in a dry robe? That's what I don't That's weird. >> She's been She's been in the sauna. >> Yeah, that wasn't the sexy I was imagining a sort of like you know, like >> It's just practical. >> Neptune rising out of the water, a wave artfully covering something. >> It's practical. It's like this is you. >> Yeah. Yeah, which is very Mark. >> version of you. >> Very Mark, yeah. I have a degree of concern about the the level of worship for the the as far as we know our lawyers, well they issued an official statement, but as far as we know possibly the only woman he's ever slept with having a a 10-ft statue in his own garden. And the artist got that.

23:28 >> I think he because the early days, you know, when it was Face Face Mash at Harvard where he, you know, created this website where he hacked into all these Harvard what was it, colleges? >> Yeah, different different houses, yeah. >> Different houses, stole all of the, you know, the the pictures of all the women and men actually. >> And then in the film it's it's and then >> They make out to and then he even deletes the men. They were it was like women and men. I mean, they were competitive farm animals, but >> >> There's there's a sort of slight touch of the Matt Hancock about Mark Zuckerberg in that he's like really like into stuff. And and that can either be good for a night out or it can be an absolutely liability.

24:07 And I don't really know which one cuz we're assuming, I guess, right? He's at his most fun and uninhibited. And so on the WhatsApp he is like he's not worried about privacy or whatever. There's no journalists or like he's sending his memes. He's like >> encrypted. >> Yes, exactly. >> as Facebook PR, but >> And I'm sure that would never be abused. >> think you'd go back later and it would all delete itself? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:31 >> No, he's using He's got disappearing messages. >> Yeah. But but you're right because I mean, there is there is I saw a video of Mark Zuckerberg at his wife is called Priscilla. At Priscilla's 40th birthday party >> Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And what he what he did is he he borrowed, rented, stole a blue skin-tight latex jumpsuit from a a musician called Is he a musician, I think, called Benson Boone? And he he wore it and and copied a move from Benson Boone, which is like jumping off a piano while singing a song. And I would have said prior to seeing this video, Mark Zuckerberg will never sing a song in public or jump off a piano. And he did both in front of like a reasonably large crowd of people. And that gives me, as the defender of the point with Mark Zuckerberg, fondness.

25:15 A belief that maybe he's up for quite a maybe going out somewhere afterwards. >> But the but don't you feel like the energy of that? You know in Mean Girls where she's like, "Stop trying to make fetch happen." Like fetch is not a thing. He is trying to make fetch happen. There's something like quite cringe about his like enthusiasm, you know? >> I think Priscilla has made a passing comment. >> Exactly. >> But I love it. Exactly. And he's like, "The next 12 months is just mostly him."

25:42 >> And and actually you're making me revise my view because because then you see it cuts to her in his Instagram video. It cuts to her on her own on the dance floor, too doubled over in what is either hilarity or cringe. And it's a it's a very hard to tell, and maybe it's a very fine line for her as well. >> When it comes to it derailing, are we saying that leads to him being really into it? Or is he like, "Sorry, guys.

26:04 I've got to go home and practice my Benson Boone moves." or whatever he >> I think you'd have to convince him that there was a reason for him to get really into it. And it'd be worth him you know, getting really into it. >> Right. >> And altering his mind with with alcohol. >> Yeah. >> Which he doesn't like doing normally. >> Yeah. If it if it was like to give a run out to the meta glasses, maybe he would go on a rager.

26:26 >> Yeah, what would he >> Yeah, I think yeah. >> How do they perform? How's the audio in in a pub? >> Yeah. >> Or or club? >> Yeah, so there's a lot of cross noise actually, and it's really cuz it isolates on who you're talking to. >> Okay. >> So so we are undecided on on on an on a night out after the pub with Mark. >> But what's he clamoring for? If you if it's derailing, where is he clamoring for? Is he Yeah, is he like, "We need to go to >> >> Well, he does have pervert glasses if David is to be believed.

26:51 >> I think we have to assume that Mark Zuckerberg's not a very self-aware person. Because the fact he wears those glasses on so many interviews, someone from the PR team has put them on his face, and they they look terrible. I mean, they're really embarrassing. No, you know, children sometimes their parents will dress them in like, you know, a pink top and yellow bottoms, and because they're three or four, they don't mind. They look silly, but no one minds cuz they're a toddler. But Mark Zuckerberg looks really, really silly.

27:18 >> imagine you're working at Meta. He spent like a hundred billion on these glasses. You present them to for him to wear on like the Theo Von podcast, and he's like, "No, I'm not wearing those." I'm not going anywhere near those glasses. >> does have to wear them. >> Back That's what would Steve Jobs say? Back to the back to the workshop with those. >> So, on that basis, Mark is probably taking the glasses off about three quarters of a pint in.

27:39 >> No, I think he's locked in the >> No, no, he's locked in, but I just I just don't think you're going to convince him to derail. He's not He's not going to get a bag in. He's not going to come to the strippies. He's definitely not like pissing in the street. It's just never going to happen. >> Okay, so he's he's turned up. He's wearing his glasses. What else is he wearing? What else has he got on?

27:58 >> Yeah, is he Is he wearing the hoodie? Is he wearing his suit for Congress? >> Well, what are What are the eras of the aesthetic? And also, which are the ones that he's choosing, and which are the ones that were sort of put on him? >> I don't get the sense that the Harvard era Zark with like, you know, the hoodie and the jeans and stuff, I think that was just what he put on cuz I don't think he would have really seen the full picture.

28:19 >> style as well. Like, when they did the IPO >> Those are quite cool now, aren't they? >> Yeah, maybe. >> It's all it's come back round. >> He's ahead of his time. It's come back round. >> So, so there's this there's this original Zark who who he likes a hoodie. >> He doesn't think about what he wears, and maybe that's the the core of what makes the real Zark is he's not thinking. He just pops a hoodie on, pops his sliders on, looks at maybe accidentally cool or what popular culture has made to be cool since then because he was the the college dropout.

28:46 >> Yeah, I would say at the time probably not that Well, maybe Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I think the first meaningful transition in in the Zuck aesthetic he went from from a hoodie to sort of full-length zip fleece. Which now you'd associate with a kind of retiree. Maybe trendy. >> I don't know you'd associate it with Dalston in my opinion. >> Okay, I'm a bit behind, but the first really big shift was was the suit, I think.

29:08 >> Well, I think that they're all the gray t-shirts before is like the Steve Jobs wear the same thing every day, have a uniform. >> Okay, so sort of a pre-congressional hearings. >> Yeah. >> That was an era of gray t-shirts. >> That was his sort of Roman tunic, wasn't it? It's just wear the same thing. >> a Yeah, went for the Roman lid as well. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so so we've got we've got hoodie and then we've got the Roman lid, Roman tunic, gray gray gray t-shirt.

29:30 We then move through the congressional era where I think he was looking for the image of the serious the serious businessman or he'd been told at least dress like one. >> He's turning up to the pub in a suit is what we say or no, what's the most recent look? >> there's at least one or two other eras since then. >> Okay. >> And and this most recent era there's sort of two versions of what he wears.

29:51 There's the sort of daytime and night time or morning and evening. There's the naked Zuck or not naked, but he's sort of in a loincloth. >> Is that that's morning? >> Wrestling other men. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> And then there's the boxy there's the Justin Bieber Zuckerberg, I think. >> Over gold chain gold chain kind of looks has a slight Justin Timberlake look, right? Or like a or maybe like a drug dealer as well by some estimations.

30:15 >> And well, what's what's the aspiration of the way he dresses? What's he what's he doing with each look? >> I feel like he's trying to just blend into the culture in a way that he perceives to be appropriate, no? So, he's quite calculated. Like he's not I don't think he's an idiot as far as his look goes. Even with the Roman hair like do you think maybe that's just maybe he's trying to get people to underestimate him cuz they think he's just got this awful haircut, but actually there's like a serious underlying message.

30:41 >> So, you think there's a lot of calculation? >> Yeah. So So at the pub in winter 2026 >> Mhm. >> I don't know whether he's got a pair of Salomons on, but I'd like to put it out there. >> Yeah, I think that's a good show. He's got a thrifted Fila tracksuit top. >> Yeah, he >> >> he's he's sent his PA to thrift a Fila top. >> There's like a Carhartt t-shirt and like some sort of loose-leg trousers.

31:05 >> Very loose-leg trousers. >> Yeah. >> Like he's he's doing his like big Hackney vibes I feel. >> So we're taking him to a pub maybe in Hackney. He's He's got his baggy trousers and his his Salomons on. >> Yeah, what's he drinking? What's he drinking? >> Does he drink? >> I feel like he's in a I think he's protein shake. >> But we have to I think we have to presume that he is having an alcoholic drink given that he's come to the pub for a pint, right? Like we have to assume that there's like, you know, is it an ale? Is it an IPA? Like if it's anything like his love of smoked meats, I can imagine him just getting into like really getting into a beer. Like I don't know.

31:39 >> I think he'd order it. He'd You know on the side of pubs it just says real ale, he'd just get to the >> >> I'd like one He could have one of your real ales, please? >> Yeah. >> There's this sort of farm-to-fork mark that because I think he owns a I think he owns a cow farm. >> Yeah. >> talks about it being a sort of vertically integrated cow farm where you can eat the cows from the farm or you know, he'll maybe he'll slay the cow for you. So he he'd go for the >> He's bringing his own pub snacks.

32:07 >> the most local beer. >> Yes, that's >> Yeah, cuz he's given isn't he feeding them macadamia nuts so that they're perfectly brewed cuz that's like they're like really calorically dense apparently. So like Yeah, I can There's something I can imagine him having a Doom Bar. I don't know why cuz it feels kind of I'm just I've really got this idea of him being sort of hipster in my head and I feel like Doom Bar is kind of >> hipster beer?

32:28 >> Oh, maybe not. Maybe he's just an old man. >> He's like a Red Stripe. >> Yeah. >> A Red Stripe is good. Cuz he's looked up. He's got his researchers to go this is what >> He read about the carnival. >> He's come straight from the carnival. >> He's showed up in November. >> Yeah, Red Stripe. >> Yeah. >> To claim he's come straight from the carnival. >> >> Wasn't carnival great? God. So, we got Mark Zuckerberg with a Red Stripe. Is it in a can or a glass the Red Stripe? Cuz I think Red Stripe's a quite a can-based beer.

32:54 >> I think he's poured it into a glass. >> Has he? >> Yeah, he's poured it into a glass. >> offered him a glass? >> >> He's poured it into a a half pint glass. and and >> >> Just let it spill over the sides and just pour the whole can. >> a lot with the with a head as well. I think he would know who You don't get that on a >> Yeah, no. Yeah, he that would be a >> or maybe like a red, you know, like the college frat party cups.

33:19 >> He's got a solo >> >> He's asked for a solo >> Yeah, cuz I feel like that's probably the last time he's he's drunk beers. >> Yeah, okay. So, we've organized a solo cup for Mark, a red solo cup. He's drinking his Red Stripe from it in his Salamanders. I think Mark Zuckerberg is not a man who has a so conversation gambits ready to go. Because he's lived >> Really? >> He's lived his entire life in his career. And so, the gambit is sort of given to him like, you have to talk about the metaverse or you have to talk about the AI agents or whatever it might be the latest meta product. So, I think out the gates there'd be this sort of Pavlovian response to sitting with someone new which would be sort of give you the stick about the meta muse agent or something like that. After half a pint, maybe he'd just loosen up a little bit. And you might get the odd stories.

34:07 >> Lucas, what would the stories what would they be? >> Do you think he's doing the stick with everyone though? Like no matter what? Like there's a there's a guy, you know, wandering around the pub absolutely pissed who like starts off and you see him he seems quite friendly and then he's like very very problematic and like even him he's just telling me about the glasses. >> Talking about the glasses. >> Yeah, I I think he's an endless advocate for Facebook, right from right from the start he'd be like, "You know, when you're being excommunicated from your from your family and your children, Facebook's a really great way to connect with other people. That's That's genuinely, I think, what he would be doing.

34:39 >> Well, you raise like a problem in your life and he's just telling you how Instagram will help you. >> Yeah, it's the new hashtag filter feature. It's Yeah, you can If you're struggling with your relationship, you can talk to other people who are also I mean, that's how I imagine he would approach it. >> Is this Is this because Did he develop a online social network because he sort of struggled I presume he struggled as a make friends and he sort of lived on the internet and I think the the origin of Facebook was a way to stalk stalk women.

35:07 Would that be >> >> fair? >> Just run that through the lawyers. >> Some people Some people say >> But isn't his his his bit his argument is like, "I just like to build stuff." You know, that's his thing. >> Yeah, he says that a lot. >> Yeah, and he's like, "Oh, it's not actually about isolation or whatever. It's just like I like to create things." And I just I'd like to believe that. I just don't I don't know. Are you convinced by that? I don't I don't feel particularly >> he just wants to win. I just think he wants to be all I don't even think he's necessarily that motivated by money.

35:39 It's like almost the money is an expression of power. >> So, would he be like a Roman emperor crushing you in conversation at the pub? Would he be like every anecdote you tell would he be just like "That was shit." >> >> Cool story, bro. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But I think if it didn't if it didn't like wind if it if it didn't fit into something more important, I just don't think he would care. I just don't think he'd do small talk.

36:05 >> So, he wouldn't have an He wouldn't have an anchor. >> No. >> For anything. >> But do you think he would be like how he's depicted in The Social Network, which is, you know, like he's just like complete wise-cracking, sarcastic Or do you think he would just be a bit like not interested? >> I just think he would be not interested. I think he wouldn't he would he would he would value his time versus all the opportunity cost of all the other ways he could be spending his time and he would just not be that interested.

36:32 >> I think I think I'm going to defend Mark here, which is probably because he's not doing that at home with Priscilla. I assume they have reasonably normal conversations. I'm not saying he's the most socially adept charismatic man to have dinner with, but I think a pint deep you might get a bit of the real Mark. And Aaron Sorkin's writing is full of one snappy one-liners. I don't think he's as witty as the ultimately not very likable version that Aaron Sorkin paints in The Social Network. But I think he'd probably be quite funny.

37:02 And in interviews, even interviews with comedians, I think he's often actually accidentally funnier than they are. So I I see this this, you know, I'm not going to say it's like the best point in my life, but I think you might get into a good a good might get a good head of steam with Mark over over a couple of beers. >> But if you if you got into a topic that he knows about and likes, like if you were talking about the philosophy of AI, for example, which is like obviously like a very emergent area, he will know what he thinks about that and you could get into like quite a good relatively adversarial conversation about that, presumably. And he would be interesting. I would be very interested to hear what he had to say about that.

37:37 >> Do you think he'd be prepared to to to stake a position, though? Because I think his current position on AI is I'm not going to do the impression only that you just did, but it's sort of >> Well, I can't do it either. >> >> It's I just think we should all just have fun with it, whereas whereas, you know, Bill Gates is out there saying it is definitely going to destroy for humanity and Mark's saying, you know, they've sort of created a fluffy little character to represent Meta AI to make it look not threatening. It's not going to destroy the world.

38:03 >> I I I hear he employs people to argue with him over different bits of Facebook policy. So he would presumably, and apparently he doesn't back down, he's like quite stern. So I think he would have opinions and I think he would be willing to argue them. Cuz he clearly knows what he thinks about all this stuff, right? Like and he's smart. Like so I think that would be interesting. >> So Nick >> Clegg would give us a take on on how good he'd be over over a beer.

38:26 >> But But on that, I think he he is that I mean there's there's a lot of examples where he reaches out to people that don't agree with him. Like, there's you have Ben Thompson does like a you know Stratechery, it's like a online sort of opinion about about tech and you know it was like nailing the metaverse the whole time even as they were spending more and more money on it. And apparently like Mark Zuckerberg reached out to him and actually wanted to hear his side of it.

38:50 >> Does he just care about >> asked him a lot of questions. Apparently he really didn't say anything back, just listened to him for an hour and was like, "Okay." >> So, he's very insecure. It'd be sort of like do do do is it true that he's selling his company? >> oh no, I think >> No, but no, but that's a sign of security, right? That was that was that was that was like an Augustus >> tactic.

39:06 >> I think it's quite I don't know, if you're willing to have someone like rip you to shreds, like I think that is the mark of a very confident man, right? >> So, he's collecting the people's opinions knowing he's in supreme control. >> So, yeah, he wouldn't like choose the weakest one out of us and then nail them in order to like gain status in the group. He would be quite happy, I think, to be the butt of the joke cuz he's that confident in who he is and he's so powerful, which is maybe good. I don't know, maybe that's a good presentation.

39:33 >> But the social network Mark Zuckerberg depicted would very much would pick on sort of the weakest person. How How How accurate do you think that sort of depiction of him is? >> I don't think he's fair. >> I don't think it's particularly fair. I think it feels like a bit of a hit job. I mean, there's so many there's so much like if it's not slander, it's like whatever the stage just beneath that is cuz there's a bit where they show Mark Zuckerberg eating dry tuna from a can, which I >> >> which I think is just like if you were basically saying this person's a freak, that is the perfect cinema like cinematic graphic like that.

40:09 >> in the issue they wrote it as he was drinking blood? And they're like, >> >> Yeah, yeah, it was even more disgusting. >> Yeah. They literally imply that he's like a complete sociopath. I I'm not convinced he is that. I think he's a very intelligent man who's come up with something and it's like But I don't think he's like this sarky who has no redeeming features. No. >> Cuz there's nobody actually, you know, who's worked with him who'll go on the record and say he's this awful person.

40:34 >> And there is a recent book called something like, you know, deeply unpleasant people. >> Yeah. >> which is about working directly with Mark Zuckerberg. >> Written by the former head of PR at Facebook. >> But I have a lot of empathy for Mark. >> Not that I'm completely pro-Mark. >> People have written sort of similar >> Well, some of the anecdotes >> >> Some of the anecdotes in in the book are things like Mark attended a dinner of, you know, 100 politicians and he was supposed to talk about policy and he decided to not attend the dinner and just sort of run away. I think that's the completely rational reaction to being presented with the room of 100 European politicians.

41:08 >> Yeah. >> So I I think that's the version of Mark that'd be quite fun over a beer. You'd say, "Hey Mark, you know, I would have run away from the politicians, too." And he he'd probably he'd be quite genuine in that environment. >> Yeah, have you heard that thing about his PR person blow-drying his armpits before interviews? Cuz he's supposed to be >> But I'd like to. >> Yeah, but apparently it was on their insistence and not his.

41:30 >> >> Because he's getting too sweaty. >> Yeah. He's just there. You know, I think it's maybe hoodie days where he's insisting on wearing the hoodie and just absolutely beading up. >> I think the day someone starts blow-drying your armpits is the day you start feeling more nervous. >> Maybe that's why he's not wearing the hoodie though. >> That's so That has such a feeling of like >> with the T-shirt. >> That is Roman emperor vibes, isn't it?

41:52 Where you've literally got someone who you're paying money and they're blow-drying your armpits. That has such a feeling of like a mental Roman emperor. >> What's their LinkedIn job title? >> Nero did that. Nero got someone to >> What's their What's that person's LinkedIn job title? How do we find them? >> >> I've no idea. >> Personal Personal care. >> Yes. >> Mark Zuckerberg's dryer. >> In a sort >> Yeah. >> But not what you think.

42:16 >> But do we think he'd be good in bed? Cuz we were talking about that at the start and I'm genuinely interested in like >> No, I think >> Do you think he'd put in a shift? >> No, I think he'd put in a massive shift and he would improve over time. >> Like there's there's >> relative to one versus second time shagging someone. He'd improve so much. >> was something to be like you cannot say that he does not, you know, put his all into things.

42:35 >> No, no, no, he's very strategic. If he wanted to >> give you the night of your life, right? It would take him 18 to 24 months. >> Before he went down on a woman, he would present to them about like all of his strategy about going down and he'd be like, "Well, you know, after last year, we thought very deeply about how we would go down on you again. And that's why we're starting by doing this." And he'd like set out a whole thing and then he did it.

42:57 >> his biggest challenge is >> >> his cannalingus. >> So, can I not make it? It's fantastic, that bit. >> See, that's been the podcast. >> Can I Can I hold it together? >> His His biggest challenge is is his model of delivering on a goal. >> Of delivering. >> Is investing >> women to the place she needs to get to. >> >> Maybe that's what it's all about. Maybe it's all been about that. >> Well, that's what the social network says.

43:26 >> their emails, figure out all about them. >> This is getting very male. His model of delivering on a goal is investing one to two billion dollars in it. >> >> It's hard to invest one to two billion dollars in your in your sexual success. He does also manage to chat up a girl in a queue for the toilets who who is now his wife and they produced children together. I think possibly that's the original Mark Zuckerberg.

43:52 >> You want to go for a pint with him because he's had >> prove he can prove >> He can prove he >> My masculine role model. He can prove he has sex cuz he's had a couple of times. >> >> I kind of suggest >> I'm trying to say >> three times >> the backbone of Mark Zuckerberg, there is a there is possibly a normal normal-ish guy. >> But if he put his mind to it, he could create a sex toy that completely revolutionize the market. I know what I'm saying. I know what >> But have you seen Have you seen him Have you seen him talk about AI?

44:20 >> I just like making things. >> >> Have you seen him talk about AI when he's like, you know, we spent 200 billion on it and we may not get there, but if we get there slightly quicker, it's it's all been worth it. >> Is that your view on his sexual attitudes? >> Yeah, isn't that something there? >> It's But he's very efficient. Get it done as quickly as possible. >> But yeah, but also from >> No, but there is like he's cuz he swings hard and he's like, "We're going to use all the resources we have, you know."

44:44 >> >> No, but he No, if he goes with something, he'll go for it, right? He's like, "We're going to use all I'll put all the resources I can behind this." So maybe it would just be like, "Look, >> Well, yeah, exactly. >> we're going to get two or three thousand people working on this." >> He's feeding them the macadamia nuts. He's like, I'm sure he'd be like, "Right, grapefruits really good for sexual prowess. So you're going to have this 4 to 5 hours before" Like I can so see him doing that.

45:06 >> also afterwards he would he would be like, "Look, when meta glasses are going to mean that we're not going to have to do this in future. We We can have an experience where we just are on our own. We have the same experience. We get the right haptics." >> Yeah, the haptics would change from a wristband to something else, not a >> What was the What was the question about the pub that this relates to?

45:27 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do we take this back to? I think we're starting with what what would what the chat be? but Josh, your your worldview is that Mark Zuckerberg treats himself a bit like one of his prize cows. So feeds himself with the necessary supplements and nutrients to perform to to taste good or to perform at maximum ability. And he brings all of that alpha energy to the pub. >> Yeah, but it's really difficult to know to what extent like, you know, cuz I do actually think there are good alpha males and there are bad alpha males in terms of conversational partners.

45:55 Because, you know, like you can imagine like an alpha male who just sort of like treads on everyone and is slagging them off. But I actually think the true alpha male is often slightly quieter, more secure in themselves, willing for other people to have the space. And so, if he was like that, I think he would be quite a good presence. And maybe he would be And clearly he's like actually quite interested in asking about other people.

46:16 >> Is that true? What What What questions would Mark Zuckerberg ask you at the pub? >> Why are you a comedian? That's a stupid thing. I I don't know why he's Canadian on that. I I mean, I don't I don't really know, but the fact that he is interested in what other people have to say about Facebook matter and he's willing to like do that. That would imply that he's interested >> But, it would have to be about Facebook and matter. That's the thing.

46:39 >> Yeah, you don't think it would be about any other kind of You couldn't ask him about a particular artist and like what he thought about that person, right? >> There is that thing where he went to a Taylor Swift concert with his with his daughter and she's like, "Oh, when I grow up, I want to be like Taylor Swift." And he he replied, "That's not in your option set. You can't be >> >> And he tell told that story is like, "Okay, but then I, you know, got it down. I got her on some low coding tools and like got her coding and, you know, it was like the moral of the story was basically she can do this. She can do this. She can She can code.

47:22 >> So, Mark's So, Mark's sort of view of the of the hierarchy of humanity is that coding is at the top. >> I don't know. I think it was more like you can't do that, you know? We have to We have to invest a lot of time, you know, getting billions of dollars to pay Taylor Swift to come to our birthday. >> aspirational. >> Yeah, I think it was like you you you I'm going to be honest like most parents would be like, "Oh, yeah, give it a go."

47:44 And he was like, "No, you you can't You can't I've heard I've heard you sing." >> Yeah, you're my offspring. You You can't sing. You're not creative. >> Yeah. >> And you're bad with people. Don't be Taylor Swift. >> Yeah, yeah, you don't think he would have any opinions on anything that wasn't Facebook or matter. You think it would literally just be like because are we not guilty of slightly going oh well he's famous for that and all we hear him talk about is that. But surely he's got opinions about art and culture.

48:07 >> cooking and killing me. >> Yeah. >> And on the on the the interview I watched with with the comedian Theo Von, he talks about fighting. And it it's the only moment where they could have a conversation cuz it's a shared interest between them that isn't awkward. And what's really striking is that he he talks about he likes fighting because he likes being he likes the visceral thrill of being punched in the face. It's the only moment in his career he's ever had that or his life.

48:35 They talk about a particular fighter. I don't know this maybe it's famous person but he says I watched him get punched and I thought oh no, that's my friend. And I thought firstly, is that really true? Is he sort of a close buddy? Is he going for points with this jujitsu guy? >> I think he's sparring him. I think that's >> Maybe he's right. >> Maybe he's right. >> But also he he's had this sort of physical reaction seeing his his his body getting punched and maybe there's there is this emotional empathetic side to Mark that we never get to see because every published interview is >> Do you think if you got a bit Larry and got into you know got into a fight that would be his reaction? He would sit there watch and be like >> I hope he'd stand up and defend me given his prowess.

49:14 >> Oh but that's that's a good point actually. That maybe is the reason why he would be good down the pub cuz if if things kicked off not that I you know I've >> I love the way you roll your eyes as >> If things really if things really kicked off. If someone got really shirty actually over a spilled neck oil. He's maybe he would protect you. Not that yeah that's never been an issue in my life.

49:37 >> Okay, so we've we've looked at his his eras his characteristics the aesthetic. Who is the real Mark Zuckerberg? Is there a pre and post Mark or or has there been a continuum? >> I I know if I think yeah maybe there is a maybe that is a bit overblown the contrast between young him and him now. The just young him is maybe he's more honest thoughts >> >> Unashamed. >> Yeah, he's he's unrefined. I guess most people are as university undergraduates, but he's like I think he's always been very ambitious and wanted to build stuff and isn't necessarily afraid of stepping on people or stepping over people to get there.

50:16 And I think he views like the idea of creation is so inherently valuable that if that comes up against like privacy stuff, that's not that that's not as important, I think. I think that's applicable for younger and older. >> I think it's it's somewhat harsh like the depictions of him when he's younger cuz it's like not everyone has their sort of private conversations subpoenas. You know, as as >> From 17 years old or 18 years old.

50:40 >> And I think a lot of those things like whilst, you know, pretty unfortunate, I think a lot of people have said things in that era as well where people were sharing a lot more stuff online and have said things that, you know, in the cold light of day where like, you know, the New York Times is doing exposés on you, they could present you in a certain way. And I think it's like natural for peop- people to change. I think the unifying thing throughout throughout it all is is, you know, he's hyper-competitive.

51:04 He wants to win and I think kind of win at all costs. and I think that's what's been consistent throughout. >> The thing I struggle to square with him is this the fact that he's sort of the computer nerd and the hyper-competitive masculine guy. And and clearly there is this competitiveness through his entire life, but that was never as a young man exhibited through sport or any like the traditional things we'd assess as competitive. It was through sort of I don't know, so winning or >> But the thing is if he'd been slightly better at sports younger, you wouldn't have had Facebook. Cuz he's trying to, you know, he's trying to be someone at Harvard, you know, and that's the only mechanism that he can really push behind. He's competitive, he wants to be popular, he wants to you know, if you believe the the film, he wants to get into one of these these finals clubs or whatever they're called. But really, that was the only way that at that time, those were the tools that he had at his disposal.

52:01 >> So to take online control of people's identities. >> Yeah. >> >> Yeah, he could hack people's in personal information and collect those into a you know, a database that he and only he had access to. >> And so basically that there's a continuous Mark Zuckerberg's life which is collecting data on people voluntarily or not. and that he scaled that from the Harvard population of a of you know, 10,000 or so to 4.5 billion, basically. So nothing's changed.

52:32 >> I mean, it is pretty amazing. Like I don't think they would have thought at the time, you know, when you see the early communications between them, they're thinking, "Oh, it's amazing. We've had you know, 450 people use the website in the last week or something." >> Mhm. >> It's pretty It would be interesting to ask him like in your wildest dreams, like could you possibly have imagined the scale that you know, these things got to?

52:56 >> But he's just yeah, I don't know. He's ever since he was a kid, right? He's enjoyed kind of well, not enjoyed, but just had this like urge to beat his adversaries by creating a new system so that like creating a new world so that he can kind of like leapfrog over these people. And that's what I think he's doing now and that's what I think he's trying to do with the metaverse. and that comes with all kinds of problems, I think philosophically.

53:21 But I think from his perspective, he genuinely does perceive himself to be like trying to create this empire and he is like a Roman emperor. Whether you whether you think that's a good thing or not is a is a separate question, but like that I I I think that is what his self-image is. >> And for me, the central paradox of of Mark Zuckerberg is that he was online before the rest of us. And he saw the future of of the internet, and he was right on Facebook and then on on Instagram and and on on WhatsApp. And and I feel like with the metaverse and today it all began to kind of fall apart. And he by accident built the most successful advertising business in the world. So, he could have got away with the last few years. But he was wrong about this idea that we all want to have headsets on our heads and live in virtual space. Because that's where he was the the kind of really online guy and we were all just sort of enjoying kicking balls in the park.

54:10 And so, what he's done is rather than You're a big >> You're a big football >> Big football guy. Yeah. Never not played many match football in my life. but he now has decided he'll do this like hard pivot where he will punch people in the face in real life with his top off on social media to try to correct the record about the metaverse. So, my take would be that this whole macho Zuckerberg smoking meat and fighting people is him trying to put right what went wrong with his vision of everyone virtual space.

54:42 And actually, the real Mark is behind all of that is the guy in the hoodie who loves the internet. >> Do you think he's not trying to just be part of a club that he will never have access to, right? >> of the world. >> Yeah, yeah, right. He's trying to be like, "Oh, I'm part I I spar with these guys." And you're like, "Nah." >> So, so when he was at Harvard he perceived the alpha males as the guys in the frat. Now the alpha males are the the the MAGA guys who fight.

55:08 And so, he's just switched fraternities. >> Yeah, quite possibly. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what his relationship with his own masculinity is, but I do think very publicly showing that you like to beat other blokes up would suggest that you want There's There's an image you'd like people to like >> Does that come from a place of security or insecurity? >> Yeah, well, that's the question, right? It's cuz if I maybe he's like super secure intellectually, but then like there must be an aspect that has a bit of insecurity.

55:37 >> But he he he did quite well in his early sort of jujitsu stuff, right? >> that's certainly the PR was certainly that. >> Yeah, and then he and then he did his ACL, which is the kind of thing I'd I'd do if I I didn't want to do it anymore. I'd just be like, "Yeah, ACL. Got >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you're if you're set down again and >> Yeah, he's probably yeah, fighting like 14-year-old girls in Australia.

55:56 >> But yeah, it does feel a bit like a you know, like a an election in a dictatorship and they're like, "We won. 100%. Can you believe it?" You know. It does feel a bit like that. >> that quote from his coach that's like, "He's one of the best students I've ever had." >> >> I think he is one of the great men in history. I think he will be remembered as as one. But the the the thing about being great man of history is Mark Zuckerberg, like Napoleon, might not be that good for a pint. So, I bring back the question of on reflection, as great as he is, can you ask the ineffable question of whether Mark Zuckerberg would be good for a pint?

56:36 >> I I do think he'd be interesting. I think you just need to kind of corner him, get him one-on-one, and get him on topics that he wants to talk about. >> Okay. >> So, you're going for a pint. You're giving up a night of relaxing on the sofa and you're going for a pint with Mark Zuckerberg. >> Yeah, I think so. I think so. >> Yeah, I actually will revise my answer. I would go for a pint with him. I think but the caveat is I it wouldn't be based on his ability as a conversationalist or someone who's like creating a vibe. It would be purely on the contents his brain. So, if it was kind of like 60 minutes with Mark Zuckerberg, I would go for a pint. So, I'm doing a lot of the the asking and the listening.

57:13 >> Are you specifying that with him before >> Yeah, I'm like, "Mark, listen, here are the parameters, mate." Cuz I think he'd respect that, actually. >> Yeah, this is what I want These are my asks. >> Yeah, I want to know what this this this and this. >> I think you're both taking the PR Mark Zuckerberg for a beer there. And I'm I I you know, I think I'll revise my view. Unfortunately, I think Zuckerberg's lost that early authenticity of whether the film portrays him fairly or unfairly. That sharp early edgy Mark Zuckerberg that would rock the Salamons, I think has been lost down the the PR hole. And I think I would today not get any pleasure from sitting down with today's Mark Zuckerberg in the meta glasses for for a pint.

57:52 >> So, if he's there sort of you know, getting you pissed and swinging punches, you're here for it, but if he's actually sort of 40-year-old family man himself Yeah, I've got no interest. >> Yeah, or or or sort of sw- left right swiping the barmaids in in real life, you know. But but but we're not saying we could >> You know, with a couple of couple of pints, you kind of the PR starts to evaporate, or you think that's a completely impenetrable wall?

58:15 >> I I think I think a beer and a half in, he might become more fun over a pint. >> >> Just a quick note from our lawyers to finish the show. Mark Zuckerberg will contest most, if not all of these claims. We did approach Mark Zuckerberg for comment, and he declined. for more clarification, follow @apintwith on Instagram. Goodbye. >>