The "More" Kids

0:01 [Music] I think there are people for whom navigating many environments that are kind of expected in society whether that's school for little kids or the workplace for adults social situations there is just a little bit more intensity and how they experience it and I I like to think of the parents

0:31 of these kids as kind of being engaged in an extreme sport I say that we're like the wing suit Flyers of parenting because everything's just a little bit more intense for [Music] us let's talk about kids who are more you might be thinking more what I'm just going to say it again cuz if you one of these kids like I do I know you get it kids who are more more emotional more reactivity more

1:03 resistance More Tears more meltdowns more Defiance more and if you're nodding along this episode is definitely for you and I can promise you you are one of millions of parents who are nodding and cannot wait for the rest of this I often think about these kids as deeply feeling kids I love these kids I understand these kids I I have one of these kids I worked with so many adults who were these kids and I'm so proud of

1:35 my approach to help these kids in their families I'm also very aware that other people think about kind of kids who are more in a different way and to me it's just all about parents having some framework that makes sense to them and helps them feel empowered which is why I'm so excited to have Debbie Reber on the podcast today Debbie is a parenting activist a best-selling author a podcast host a speaker and a founder and CEO of

2:02 tilt parenting she focuses on helping parents of differently wired kids and she's full of Frameworks and strategies that are so important for parents to hear I'm Dr Becky and this is good inside we'll be back right after [Music] this I don't know about you but I'm already thinking about my family's summer vacation and after so many years of traveling together we now love staying on Airbnb so our vacation can

2:32 feel more like a vacation on a recent trip to visit family in Chicago we found the perfect familyfriendly Airbnb that had toys for my youngest family games for all of us and even the same book series my oldest was in the middle of reading oh and it gave me and my husband a living room so we could actually have time to ourselves after our kids went to bed it was an all-around win did you know that while you're away your home

2:59 could be a perfect Airbnb for another family it's a great way to earn extra money to use on your family's next vacation and speaking of making the most of family vacations if you have a trip coming up don't forget to check out our recent episode on Family Travel we've gathered some practical and actionable tips to make your next vacation even more enjoyable for everyone your home might be worth more than you think find out how much at

3:27 airbnb.com host [Music] hi debie so good to have you here I have so many questions for you I would love to hear about why you use this term differently wired as opposed to nerd Divergent are they the same are they different let's just kind of jump in there and I know we'll go to lots of places after that yeah sure so I see

3:58 them as being synonyms for each other but when I first started tilt parenting which was now eight years ago and was early on in my journey of a 19-year-old but was realizing my kid was differently wired um I really struggled with all of the deficit-based language surrounding neural Divergence and neural diversity as a term was really not commonly used in the vernacular so I started talking about differently wired as a way to have a positive reframe for really any way of

4:30 moving through the world whether that's with the diagnosis of autism or ADHD or learning disabilities or just someone who is maybe a little extra sensitive and isn't really thriving in their environments and understanding it that way differently wired like how do you feel like you've seen that help so many parents and kids yeah I mean I I will say when I came up with the term I got my child's approval which was a big deal because he was very like connected to

4:57 the the stigma and the negative connotations associated with so many things so when I put it out into the world the response was really immediate people were so happy to have a term that felt positive that wasn't focused on deficits that didn't make them feel like they were like a member of a club they did not want to be in and it just kind of made sense in a way that yeah just created more calm and peace so it was

5:23 really well received sounds like there's something internally that just like felt right to people like oh resonates yeah yeah and how would you describe like how are these kids these adults even like how are they different from maybe a neurotypical or maybe say typically wired kid I mean I think of them as kind of the more kids um and I know you have your deeply feeling kids I think they're similar in a lot of ways I think most

5:49 neurod Divergent people are deeply feeling people I think they're people for whom navigating many environments that are kind of expected in society whether that's school for little kids or the workplace for adults social situations there is just a little bit more intensity and how they experience it and I I like to think of the parents of these kids as kind of being engaged in an extreme sport I say that we're like the wing suit Flyers of parenting

6:18 because everything's just a little bit more intense for us I really love that it really resonated everything's more like okay so I see that kid is having a hard time start ing basketball oh like the hard time my kids having is is more like I see it more it comes out more there comes out more there's there's a lot more and so one of the things I often say to parents of deeply feeling kids is if it feels like your kid is

6:45 having let's say it's you know their their moments are bigger and more difficult than other kids like I don't think you're crazy like I I believe you and that's actually a helpful starting point is that is you feel the same yeah absolutely because I think so many of us feel like failures from the get-go because you know I mean again when when my child was young there just weren't the same resources and even conversations around this and so I

7:10 constantly felt like I'm doing this wrong I'm doing everything my friends are doing I'm getting much different results and so it's really hard to not make that mean I'm bad at this 100% so you know one of my ways in here right so I'm clinical psychologist I'm in private practice I'm seeing so many families I had my first kid right before I have any kids I'm like I know exactly what to do then you have your own kids you're like

7:35 wait a second but I had my first kid and definitely not perfect definitely had some struggles and I would say like when I would do things that I would think would be helpful like in general and not like magic but like they kind of were helpful like there was a little bit of a not perfect linearity but if I zoomed out a little bit of linearity and I remember parents my practice at the time not all of them some of them saying Dr

8:00 Becky I'm doing exactly what you told me to do but my kid is escalating my kid covers their ears my kid just yells stop talking stop talking stop talking my kid hisses my kid is growling and trying to scratch me and in the back of my head Debbie I I I I feel awful saying this but I want to be honest in the back of my head I think like I I don't think you're I don't think you're doing it

8:24 right I would and I think on the surface I'd say to them okay like let's roll with it we'll try some other things right and I started to get a little creative but I did have that thought and then I had my second kid and I was like wait wait a second like I'm watching myself do the things that like I know in my body I did with my first like and I really kind of even hear the tone the

8:48 same and holy moly and all of those peoples their stories like it was like I heard echoes of them and I was like there's there's something here and I don't know if you feel like that but maybe for me I have to be honest like it was like I had to experience it to like feel it and believe it in the realest way and it is it was so different well I will say that I rolled the dice once and

9:13 I got lucky the first time so I have one child um and I really went into my parenting Journey feeling so intentional and equipped and I'm a researcher and I'm Problem Solver and my husband and I are like you know a great team you know he's a project manager like we've got got this and so I didn't have this experience of feeling competent once things started to really deteriorate and I I just felt like I was always behind

9:40 and not able to figure out what to do to support this kid yeah that feeling of feeling behind yeah like I'm trying all the things and like nothing's working and you know and then I see the kids around me and I feel like their parents are doing the things I'm doing but this comparison can you talk about that a little bit I feel like that's so common oh my gosh yeah I talk about the compare and despair which is just a reality of

10:03 life when you're raising a kid who's moving through the world differently I think early on you know for me personally it was so challenging again because I I do think of myself as a pretty competent person and a problem solver and so to just be continually feeling like a failure and then seeing judgment from other parents or seeing other kids kind of moving on in their education or making choices or doing things that I always envisioned would be

10:31 what our family looked like um was so painful and you know and I'll just say it doesn't really that's always something that I personally and many families in my community have to always be aware of especially as like graduation season rolls around or prom season or you know there there are always these reminders that our path is a little different and so a lot of the work we have to do is is on coming to peace with that yeah I think you're

10:59 right that compare and despair because I think one of the reasons we despair is on some level we think something's wrong with us or we feel like our kid has something wrong with them right and I think that's also one of the first messages I know you're right like there's so many Frameworks maybe for understanding the same thing maybe understand something differently to me it's just about having any framework that actually feels like it makes sense

11:20 to you and helps you move things forward and I know for people I see as parents of deeply feeling kids it's one of the first things I say and it's so relieving it's just there's nothing wrong with you there's nothing wrong with your kid need a different way of understanding them that's the start of probably a set of slightly different interventions and like you're going to feel better as soon as you even have that new understanding

11:41 and know that there's a path we think we are all going to feel better when something changes but I think we all feel better when we have some like aha moment that feels new and useful and that resonates and then we have hope and I know that's what you give so so many parents yeah that sense of feeling seen is it's just it's so incredibly powerful because I think so many parents do isolate initially because of fear not only fear

12:07 of the unknown but fear of their children being you know stigmatized or having this label Associated and what is that going to mean and we can really just get so caught up in that so to to be seen and understood and realize okay I've got this there's nothing wrong with me there's nothing wrong with my kid to take that anxiety away can be really powerful so in your in your book you talk talk about these tilts right these

12:31 kind of tangible doable shifts parents of differently wired kids can make in their lives for kind of everyone's the whole family's benefit and there are 18 of them I don't know if we'll get tell all them we probably won't but if it's okay I'd love to like name one you know name a few and I'd love to jump into them so starting with the first question everything you knew about parenting tell me more yeah I think we have to start

12:56 there because again we go into this with this vision for the parent we're going to be the educational philosophy you know whether it's monasi or Walder for you know what's going to work for my family public school private school all of these ideas and who our kids going to be and we can cling to that Vision so tightly and it really has nothing to do with the human that comes into the world this human that we're actually raising

13:24 and so to start by just questioning everything and really examining you know what is true about this child and maybe I need to have be more flexible about what might actually work but a lot of this stuff is it's really ground deep into us from our own childhoods from you know our family culture and so it can feel really disruptive to to just kind of throw all the rules out yeah you know what that reminds me of um Andrew

13:54 Solomon's book far from the tree to me I think every parent should read the prologue and it always strikes me his first line is there's no such thing as reproduction and what he says is the word reproduction is a wish it's a fantasy it's our desire on some level to live forever we do not reproduce we produce your child is not a reproduction of anything and I think what you and I kind of probably would one of many

14:21 things I think we'd agree on is so many of our struggles with these kids come from that difference of reproduction versus production and I know I'm not immune to it like we all have this fantasy right in some way we're going to live forever our best qualities are going to be in our kids they're not going to have our worst and nothing's going to be that different and instead what he says about parenting he goes parenting is being Forever cast into a

14:42 relationship with a stranger so good sobering but so good yeah and maybe we don't say that cuz people would have fewer children if you're like what I don't know if I'm going to do that but you have this stranger that is produced and you're like who is this kid kid and how do I get to know them and you know just curiosity and I think maybe one of the things you're saying with throut everything you know about parenting is

15:07 like kind of these these ideas about who our kid is going to be as some reflection of the best version of us we have to really question that that can really get in our way and it's it's so hard it's so hard right it is so hard because our ego is really involved in our just how we're perceived in the world it's so tricky I love that uh that quote I read that book very many years

15:30 ago right yeah it's great it's so good I would actually take a picture on my Kindle of the prologue and I would read it to a lot of parents because obviously he's such a brilliant writer and that idea of like I just think it does it always hits me hard like why is my kid doing this I would never and I was like wait wait right because my kids like to some it's helpful like my kid's a

15:48 stranger like why are I could ask the same question but in a very different tone like why are they having such a hard time there must be a reason I'm going to assume that I'm going to do what I always like to use what is my most generous interpretation the why is actually a helpful question if it comes from Curiosity but when it comes from these preconceived ideas and our wishes and our fantasies then I know for me at

16:09 least it's like an angry why it's kind of like why are you not being the version of the kid I always thought you would be and when I articulate that I'm like wow that's offensive like I don't think that's useful but that that comes through I know for me sometimes too yeah absolutely and I think it's good to say that because I think we can then have shame if we if we don't don't share that out loud I mean I hear from parents all

16:31 the time especially around sports right like if you know I was an athlete and my husband was a soccer player like of course I assumed I was going to be standing on the sidelines of all kinds of sporting events and cheering and all of that stuff and my kid is not an athlete like you know going for a walk is a big effort at this point um and so that's something there's sadness around that too you know because we associate

16:55 so much meaning to those experiences and how important we think are and so then we perceive our kids going to miss out on this and so we really have to do this this deep work to understand where our pain points are I think that's exactly right and I think that idea of like the thing that actually helps us see our kid a little more clearly for who they are versus who we'd wanted is actually allowing for that

17:17 very real loss like that is loss for me like I would have loved if if it's true like I would have loved to stand on the sidelines like not only do I think maybe my kid would have liked it but if I kind of like wait my kid isn't me so it's almost irrelevant it's okay to say I would have liked that like I would have loved if my kid was an amazing soccer player like I would have actually loved

17:33 that and that is not my experience as a parent and I'm I'm actually really allowed to have feelings about that I can give myself permission and the more I do that probably the less I'll act them out on my kid but I think that that's really important yeah [Music] absolutely hey good inside listeners so sometimes with parenting a podcast does the trick and sometimes with parenting we need a bit B more and I wanted to be

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18:27 really do together reduce triggers learn to set boundaries and access that sturdy leader that I know is inside all of us it's all there when you're looking for that next step and until then please do check out good inside.com slmp podcast scroll down to the ask do Becky section at the bottom and let me know what you want to talk about in future podcast episodes [Music] [Music]

19:02 okay here's another tilt parent from a place of possibility instead of fear I'd love to hear about this with differently wired kids yeah I mean there's just a lot of fear I think there's so much fear in all parenting right so we don't own this as parents of Nur virgin kids but I think our path is so less clear at so many steps along the way like even from a safety perspective there's a there's fear for for a lot of parents because

19:29 you know we might have kids who who Al lope or don't have good Street smarts and so like building Independence can be really scary but just the fact that there's so many unknowns about what's going to happen next year what's going to happen next week in this school what is this mean if my kid is on screens all the time and I read the research and you know and we know that these kids have really long you know launch pads I guess

19:54 or runways you know and we statistically these kids have a harder time as adults with mental health challenges with staying employed all of those things and so as a parent you know we don't want those outcomes but it's really hard to not pivot to that place of fear and so when I talk about pivoting from Fear to possibility it's it's like a daily practice it's something we have to always be checking in on ourselves and checking in on our motivation behind our

20:25 interactions with our kids um the things that we're prioritizing for them the pressure we're putting on our kids is that coming from fear and if it is how can we kind of shift it and think from a place of curiosity you know which you mentioned earlier I think is such a great word um curiosity and possibility and when we can show up from that place it's just going to feel so much better for everybody you know I was just

20:50 talking about this the other day in in a in a workshop because I was saying our kids really do feel the place we're at when we intervene because sometimes the intervention if someone described it simply concretely it would be the same but for example I was talking about the difference of punishing and protecting our kids especially older kids punishment I think is something you do to your kid protection is something you do for your kid on the surface it might look like

21:18 taking away their phone for a week based on something that happened right where punishing would sound like um I can't believe you did something so stupid you know we don't do that in our family I'm taking away your phone for a week you know where protection would be hey I'm kind of concerned about this text message I saw and I feel like we have to like figure some stuff out together I am going to be taking away your phone for a

21:35 week and look I know that stinks I know it's a big deal I don't take it lightly I also don't take lightly your kind of safety your digital safety and it's my responsibility to teach you some things so on the surface it's interesting it's not like people are like you don't believe in punishment like it's kind of silly like so anything goes like I never said that actually the intervention might concretely be the same but our

21:55 kids will know whether we're doing something to them from by the way just our own frustration or fear or whether I'm doing something for them because I actually believe in their capability I believe they're a good kid and I believe part of my job is setting up a structure to help bring that out because I believe in their possibility and I have hope and I I I just really want to give that example to parents because I think when

22:15 people say oh instead of like punishing which is often from Fear right like an immediate punishment I always say like in the real world we punish our kids because we just don't know what to do in the moment and we randomly say something that by the way we later take back and always under myor own authority it's like you can't watch TV for a week and then I'm like wait did I say a week uh I

22:32 don't I don't really no I don't think I said A week I think I said a night you know and my kid's like oh my goodness you know and the idea of seeing possibility to me is kind of the same thing as best coaches do to their athletes they're like wow my my basketball player is really missing a lot of free throws like oh like I could be like I'm worried you're going to miss every shot for the rest of the you know

22:52 Season or I'm like wait their shot looks little off like what's going on there are they nervous is it actually their form is it I don't know muscles like if I see them as being capable of developing some new skill then there's a lot of possibility and hope and I think we all feel that difference yeah it changes everything and our kids are so attuned to us you know they know they know what what Our intention is even if

23:16 the words coming out of our mouth uh are saying something different it's exactly right with differently wired kids where where do you see a lot of fear where's like where are parents very fearful I really think it is about the the future unknowns I think that if a lot of you know I just was on a call with the families in my community last night and there's so much school refusal right now and the anxiety and mental health

23:41 challenges and just not thriving really socially uh all of these things and we see the potential in our kids and we know how incredibly bright they are and how they have so much to contribute to the world and I think the fear is around them not thriving long term and then worrying am I going to make a mistake am I making the wrong choice like parents get paralyzed at every juncture because there's still this idea that if I make

24:08 the right choice or if I can control this then I can guarantee this outcome and that can be paraly there's no right choice to make we're feeling our way through this at every stage but I think it is that fear that our kids ultimately aren't going to make it yeah can I ask you a question you know one of the cut of ultimate I feel like thought errors parents in general make I don't love the ter error it feels so harsh but kind of

24:34 this thought pattern that ends up being not so useful to us is something I call a fast forward error so I see my kid today struggling with something and I fast forward usually not even like three months you know I don't know I see my kid isn't listening to the music teachers like hitting their sibling and I'm like stop that hurts and they look at me and they do it again and I'm like I see them as like a sociopath path as a

24:59 30-year-old and then I respond to my four-year-old or my 8-year-old whatever it is as if they are that sociopathic 30-year-old not to say that would even be useful but like it's like I fast forward to the future I have an idea I'm worried about but then I accumulate all the things that would have led to that and I feel all that today and all of that is infused to this small moment in front of me yeah totally totally relate

25:24 to that um even you know having this idea when my kid was three or before and I was having a really rough day uh very emotional and my child was like oh can I have can I have a piece of bread like completely didn't track that I was upset I'm like who is this kid like what is wrong with this kid um of course now I know my child is incredibly deeply empathetic um but yeah I think that is

25:47 very true and one of the things I talk to my families about all the time is to just remember that our kids are always always always changing and sometimes they're changing you know it's zigzag it's not all full steam ahead yes I think that is one of the hardest things I actually remember that very viscerally from when I had a baby where I remember there were like you know three days in a row where they didn't eat or they had

26:10 slept through the night for a while and then they didn't and the way I always described it is it felt like whatever was happening today like was the forever reality like I have a kid who doesn't eat but then like someone who knew me well would be like I was with you like 4 days ago like I'm not trying to invalidate this is hard that's just like that's not what I saw right and I think that's why these stages feel so hard a

26:34 stage would never feel hard if you were grounded in the fact that it was just a stage like it wouldn't so inherently the trick it does on our brain is it makes us think this is the forever which of course is a desperate awful place to be in and I love that you're saying like you actually have enough years of experience now as a parent right to say like I've kind of exper experienced enough stages where my body kind of like

27:01 trusts that maybe more than it used to love that so my kid is 19 as I mentioned earlier and is on this capap semester program in Ireland and um honestly like even a year ago even three months ago I wouldn't have been able to say that this was going to happen um and that's just such a reminder of how our kids are always changing and as part of that I've just been over the past few years really

27:25 realizing that I keep waiting to get to some stage where things are going to be just easy and oh we've made it we're we're there and so I've spent a lot of time trying to hurry through what I'm in right now and so I've been really working on intentionally just being present for this because this is you know this is life this is what we're doing right now I'm parenting this kid right now yeah and I think what's really

27:49 beautiful about that is like I just know when we all have I don't know 30 40 year old children let's say I feel like we're going to want to say I had a relationship with my 10-year-old I with my 11-year-old with my 12-year-old with my 13-year-old not oh my goodness I kind of fast forwarded till 40 here we are at 40 and I kind of missed out like who were they like what what could we have

28:09 done not to say not to be paana it's not easy you know but just this is where my kid is today and what's a version of connecting to my kid today and the irony I always say is to me with the fast forward error we all do is the best thing for our kids down the line is to see what's going on with them today and try to meet their needs and build the skills they need today so you're

28:32 actually kind of in some ways like killing two birds is one stone anyway Debbie here's my question like we want to keep our kids safe right but safe doesn't mean always comfortable and so what is this line between secure safe but on the other hand something that I can't imagine is good for any kids kind of some version of like over catered to or coddled how do you see that it's such a good question and it's uh something we

28:58 talk a lot about you know I think of scaffolding when when you ask this question I think it is so important for us as parents to I talk about becoming fluent in who your child is and that means really understanding them on such a deep level that you read their non-verbal cues you you could you're attuned to their nervous system you can kind of see where their threshold is which might change from minute to minute hour to hour day to day and always be

29:25 trying to find that just right challenge right so we want to be of course stretching our kids and part of the job is looking for those windows of opportunity and so like I personally have gotten so good at noticing when there's an opening I'm like okay like what am I going to squeeze into this opening and how can I connect some dots or help my child you know feel pushed a little bit further outside their comfort

29:50 zone and we want to do those things at the right time if I do that when my kid has come home and they're already activated and they're kind of in shutdown mode there's no learning that's going to happen so we want to stay really attuned and always be looking for those opportunities they might not happen that often but we're always playing the the long game here right so I always try to zoom out and remember the bigger goal and looking for

30:15 opportunities to whether it's executive function or emotional regulation to kind of stretch those skills yeah and to me I just want to emphasize I think this is so important because I think too often in my private practice I saw parents who' come in talking about their kids um and they with various terms they have ADHD they're differently wired they're you know they're deeply feeling and so they can't do XYZ and i' say oh whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa like I'm not even

30:38 debate the Nuance of whether they can or can't but if this is the framework then we're constantly reflecting to these kids you are not capable of learning now maybe your learning is going to be different maybe your outcomes are going be different but we definitely don't want to limit any kids sense of their competence based on any you know one specific term or you know any trait and so to me there's this Nuance where we need a framework to understand our kids

31:03 some kids are different like I said I these kids in my private practice I've won these kids myself their pathway is going to be very different like just like some kids take longer to learn how to swim like some kids take longer to regulate their emotion or take on challenges 100% to me side by side with a nuanced understanding of our kid it's just holding on to the idea like my kid is going to be able to overcome

31:28 obstacles and I'm going to both understand them and kind of reflect back that I see them as a kid who's capable of kind of growth in that way yeah yeah and looking for those opportunities when when our child does something um that was really Brave or resilient saying oh my gosh how how did you do that I noticed you just did that that is so cool you're really developing that that trait and it's really exciting to see so

31:56 we can be those connections in real time so that they can really start internalizing those messages awesome well thank you for all of this Debbie is there anything today we haven't covered that you're like oh I'd hate to end without saying this to parents I mean the thing that I always like to share with parents especially parents who are with younger kiddos on this journey and may be feeling overwhelmed is just to um remember that your child is not broken they do not

32:23 need to be fixed and I personally feel like having these more comp kids they demand so much from us as parents but that presents this opportunity to have even a deeper connection with them and to also grow more ourselves as parents so if you can lean into it it's an incredible journey oh thank you so much and I appreciate like everything you're doing all of your guidance so helpful and so important thank you so much Becky it was

32:51 such an honor to chat with you today and same back to you thank you I have one final thought I want to share there's really this Nuance in my mind in approaching our differently wired kids or kids I often think are deeply feeling kids these kids go 0 to 60 they tend to push away help when they need it the most they tend to become very overwhelmed by emotion or even talking about emotion and to me this Nuance is

33:21 we have to understand these kids and who they are that is so important they have to be understood and they're tricky and at the same time we cannot walk on eggshells around these kids because when we walk on eggshells and we kind of let these kids our deeply feeling kids emotionality essentially be the pilot of the plane what our kids actually feel from us is oh my goodness my feelings are so overwhelming to me and holy moly

33:50 they are overwhelming to my parent they are so overwhelming to the adults around me that the adults around me won't even be the authority I need they won't even set boundaries they're not even really fully in charge of decisions they're kind of putting me in the driver's seat and that is so not where I'm supposed to be and I am so scared I'm even more scared of myself my feelings might actually be as overwhelming and toxic as

34:12 I worry they are and for all of you here who want a little more guidance on that I just want to make sure you know where to get it my deeply feeling kid Workshop without a doubt addresses this but I just added actually a new short video to Our member library because I wanted to get it this specifically and it's all about how to not walk on eggshells around your kid whether you have a deeply feeling kid a not deeply feeling

34:36 kid a differently wired kid what you think is a neurotypical kid there are moments when we walk on eggshells and having an understanding of why we don't want to do this and what to do instead to me is gamechanging in the family so how not to walk on eggshells is now there in the library I'm so excited that you know where to access it also if you want to learn more about Debbie definitely check out her most recent

34:59 book differently wired a parents guide to raising an atypical child with confidence and hope and her tilt parenting [Music] podcast thanks to Airbnb remember your home could be worth more than you think find out more at airbnb.com host thank you for listening to share a story or ask me a question go go to good inside.com SLP podcast or you could

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36:32 ourselves even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside I remain good inside e

38:26 e e for