Are Exams Destroying Your Child's Love of Learning? Noan Fesnoux Weighs In

0:00 Am I choosing what's best for my child or just what everyone else chooses? What would learning look like if it wasn't confined to four walls? >> Today we're speaking with Nuwan Fonu, creative advisor to the iconic Museum of the Future, Dubai. He is also formerly a Green Studies teacher at Green School Bali and helps shape learning experience that go far beyond textbooks, grades, and standardized outcomes. Should we over digitize and prepare our kids for a digital future or should we go primal with homeschooling? There's AI that can support educators in building lessons off the questions kids ask. Why are parents looking a alternative way of learning today? Their kids are being bullied, unhappy, have anxiety, and so they are looking for alternatives. What is really different at the Green School?

0:46 Your kids were going to come home dirty, probably muddy. >> [music] >> Even getting between classes, there's a good chance they would fall into one of the slippery slopes along the way. Many of their classes did involve getting outside into nature and exploring. Tell me, when you say it's got to be less competitive, more intrinsic, [music] is it a very utopian thought given India alone? I mean, we're talking of a population size of 1.4 billion. We're born and we're asked to compete because of the sheer size of people. Why did you decide to homeschool? Like the pressure of assessments. What is the role of an exam? Do you believe that kids need to be assessed? So, uh Today we're speaking with Nuwan Fonu, creative advisor to the iconic Museum of the Future, Dubai, one of the world's most ambitious cultural and educational spaces, where imagination, sustainability, innovation, and humility collide. But, is also formerly a Green Studies teacher at Green School Bali.

1:50 Nuwan has worked with schools across the globe, pioneered immersive and place-based learning models, and helps shape learning experience that go far beyond textbooks, grades, and standardized outcomes. His parallel experiences will help us understand the dichotomy that we have as parents. Should we over digitize and prepare our kids for a digital future up ahead or should we go primal with homeschooling and physical skills that AI can't replace? So, today we ask him two powerful questions, which form the premise of this podcast recording, which is does every parent and the one that every parent will need to reflect on, what do children need more of and less of to thrive in tomorrow's world? And when a child walks out of the Museum of the Future, what do you hope that stays with him forever? So, you have a uphill task ahead, but before we dive into the questions, I just want to ask you to share a little bit about yourself and how did you land in these two amazing roles that you did? Very simply, I feel like I have had some amazing experiences in learning and through those want to bring that joy and enthusiasm and engagement in learning to different environments. So, I consult, I design, and I lead progressive education endeavors in all different contexts. How did Green School Bali happen? Like what made you decide this is what I want to do, this is what I want to teach? So hilarious, I actually found out about the school when it opened and immediately thought this is an amazing place. I would love to be there one day.

3:31 And uh kind of set that aside, life went by and I think now 4 years uh later, I found myself coming back to Indonesia, a place that I had already lived for 4 years of my life. And uh my intention was actually to start an eco-lodge and so I was very focused on that. On the way through, I uh was asked if I would come to Green School to meet with the director and immediately at that point I felt just this incredible yeah, moment of I guess ease because I knew that I I was there to pursue my own journey and if this happened to be a stop on the road, wonderful, but I didn't have this like need for a job.

4:26 I got a job and ended up really loving where the school was, its environment, and the people above all who I met there. >> Lovely. And then, how long were you there? 4 years? So, I was there 7 years in a teaching capacity and then another two as somebody an instructor of teachers. There. Lovely. And tell us what are why are parents looking a alternative way of learning today? Are we are we believing that the traditional schooling has nothing to offer or or nothing new to offer or is there a very distinct need or a distinct type of parents who sign up? A bit of both. My my son says that >> [clears throat] >> what draws people into progressive education often isn't isn't the right motivation, which is their kids are struggling in regular schools, their kids are being bullied, uh unhappy, uh have anxiety, and so they are looking for alternatives. And the majority of the parents who I feel like I come across in these situations are are of that nature. They they actually are looking for something that fits their their kids' personality better. And that's not to say everybody. There's a lot who do align with it and I would say the ones who thrive in such an environment are the parents who are very in touch with their kids' well-being first and foremost. And so, when they see their kid coming home happy and excited about learning and full of energy after a school day, they clue in and say this may not be perfect, I still have a lot of questions, but they're on to something and they're hitting something fundamental in these kind of schools that I do not want to give up. And what is what is really different at the Green School? Like what how is it different from traditional schooling? It is a it is a school that is constantly growing and evolving, so I can speak to the time that I was there as a educator and what I did later as instructor of educators.

6:53 I I'm guessing that it's on a similar trajectory, but in its fourth year when I came in, I would say it was a radically different experience going to school. You knew that your kids were going to come home dirty, probably muddy, because even getting between classes, there's a good chance they they would >> [laughter] >> fall into one of the slippery slopes along the way. Uh many of their classes did involve getting outside into nature and exploring.

7:27 And yes, it still had a lot of subject-centered schooling that uh you would find in regular schools, so there were some parts that felt similar. However, by and large, that sort of early engagement with an environment that's so immersive, coupled with a really excellent community of people, I think those were the standout features of the school. It just felt like a welcoming place. It felt like somewhere it actually got to a point where so many parents didn't want to leave school that they had to build a co-working space at school.

8:06 Because it's a nice environment and it really made me think about how important that is. If you can create a school that is welcoming enough and appealing enough that the parents don't want to leave, that's also something that you should be looking out to do. >> Incredible. And then, the Museum of Future happened. How did that happen and how did you decide to take that on? So, I had been brought into the Museum's parent organization, Dubai Future Foundation, to support them on some next generation uh education projects in the UAE and it it was actually one of the most exciting and uh yeah, intense as well, but really rich moments of my life uh working through that uh growing of a new type of learning community.

9:04 Uh in as that project was coming to its launch and my role shifted, uh the uh leader of DFF and suggested that I take on the Museum as the next project as a creative advisor. And I found myself immediately going, wow, this is so different from everything I've done, but maybe that's a wonderful thing. What a great way to learn and grow a breadth of experience. So, I joined the Museum team at that point. Lovely. And and tell me, as a creative advisor to the Museum, what do you believe children need more to thrive in the world that is for them tomorrow and what do they need less of? So, definitely on the more side is connection. That to me is evident anytime uh humans engage engage in a meaningful uniting experience. You see everybody flourish. And whatever we can do to make that happen more is already I think uh an amazing endeavor.

10:20 So, that is something I think we could never never really do of too much of uh is connecting the humans around. Uh Also, the sense of wonder that a place like the museum brings, I think is a really critical ingredient in education. Uh So much of what we learn that is core to our learning experience as humans is around the questions. And questions often emanate from curiosity and wonder. Something has to happen amazing.

10:56 And so, I would say that is something we need to do a lot more of in education is [snorts] provide those moments of wonder that spark and ignite learners to ask the questions and pursue the inquiry into those questions that are authentic learning. When it comes to the less side, uh I feel like one of my big gripes in modern education is the competitive nature of it. It it is something that really drives a lot of people into a space where they look at hacking the system rather than appreciating learning for its true nature. They're looking at ways to shortcut and beat the system, which isn't bad in itself, but some people are better at gaming the system than others.

11:46 And it also doesn't it isn't intrinsically motivated, I guess is the way to put it. Uh the motivators are all extrinsic. I want to be the best in my class at X. And it's like, well, why? Well, because that's it. I'm number one in my class. And that feels like an incredibly extrinsic motivator rather than I want to learn how to make rockets. And so, I need to learn these skills in order to do that, which is far more intrinsic. Timmy, when you say it's got to be less competitive, more intrinsic, um is it a very utopian thought given India alone? I mean, we're talking of a population size of 1.4 billion. We've got I mean, we've been we're born and we're asked to compete because of the sheer size of uh people and the sheer opportunities that lie ahead. What do you say to that?

12:41 >> Yeah, I guess it depends on are you competing in a game that you even like? Are you uh what game are you competing in? Why is there only one game to start with? Are people competing in the right game that brings them the most satisfaction and contentment in their lives? Uh and I think India is a great example of a place that you see these questions come up continuously. You see radically different approaches happening there because there's so many people and because there is a diversity of thought.

13:14 Uh And so, why why are we all competing to become the best academically when we are living in a future where academics, in my opinion, is one of the things that we need to start putting a question mark in. We are no longer these uh people who are uh knowledge bound. Our our knowledge centers, the internet to start and now AI, are game changers in terms of that. So, what are the new rules of the game that we're competing in? And right now I feel like we're often globally stuck in playing an old game with outdated rules. And so, not saying competition is bad period, but why are we all playing one single game when there's so many different ways we can uh maintain that competitive spirit.

14:12 Very interesting that you say that. Um if there's one [clears throat] thing that you want our kids to take away or remember from the Museum of Future, what would that be? Uh I would say something that resonated with me right from the start. It's in the museum's DNA is the sense of optimism it provides. Uh I think because of this information ecosystem we're in, it often becomes overwhelming and there's a natural pension for a certain amount of doom and gloom. But for kids, uh those can often shut down the learning, shut down your motivation. And so, giving them these optimistic outlooks is so critical. But Noan, how do you how do you straddle between something as primal as green school and something [clears throat] as futuristic and tech infused as the Museum of the Future?

15:06 Where where does learning lie between? And I think as parents we're so conflicted in each like I believe that my kids need to know what what they need to be connected, they need to be exposed. And at the same time I feel like they're not getting their hands dirty enough to to really know what life has to offer. So, how are you a conflicted as well? And how do you do you straddle between it as a as an educator and as a parent? I'm I'm not very conflicted because I believe the duality is actually incredibly important. Uh the fact that everything in moderation is wonderful.

15:45 It's when we just take something and dial it up to 100% that it becomes toxic. And so, uh having your kids exposed to technology and uh these high-tech ideas is great to a certain extent. And having them play in the mud and appreciate the the beauty of the natural world around them is also amazing. And being able to experience and understand both, I think is actually a space that is even more powerful because suddenly your perspective isn't singular. You are able to go, "Oh, guess what? I can draw these threads between them." And so, that's the second part to this is interestingly if you were to put them on paper, then you couldn't imagine more different environments. But then at the same time, you start unpeeling and looking deeper.

16:41 And both the museum and green school uh are born out of this willing uh this desire to uh educate people to become more impactful and uh create a better world. That's at their core. There's a very human element to both of them. The museum at its core is a human experience. You meet wonderful people along the way. It has such great human stories told within it. And then green school it you could actually take green school and with that same community put it into urban environment and the community would still feel rich and vital and vibrant.

17:24 >> [snorts] >> And so, both of them depended on that. Uh And and both of them also are spaces where I felt like they shared this um this [clears throat] understanding that where we are today isn't where we need to be tomorrow. And so, they were both really growth positive organizations to be in. Both saw change not as something to fear, but something to embrace. We recently did a round table with uh you know, principles of various pedagogies of early education tackling the question, which school should we actually put our kids into?

18:01 But with AI being a tutor available 24/7, what do you think is the role of schools and educators and teachers today? I I believe schools do serve a really critical role. Uh and it is one less of a place where you go to learn and more of a place where you go to meet people and learn together and go out into the world to learn. So, my feeling is school still serves a really critical crossroads for learners bringing learners together.

18:37 But it needs to calm down on the scheduling and micromanaging their time so that every minute of the day is accounted for and filled. Uh because guess what? We've also got other tools that can support us in very novel ways. Uh so, the teacher's role also changes. And something that I feel should wane a little bit in the schools I imagine in the future is that of classroom management and behavior management because we're taking away some of the core tensions that a school has. If we were to remove things like uh your subjects and tight schedules like that, start opening it to more flexibility. You would suddenly have kids who feel less need to react to something negative.

19:32 Uh So, I imagine the educators really becoming guides on the side. Uh Some of them, of course, will continue to be the great storytellers that and shares of wisdom within those spaces. But I don't think it has to be as based on that uh authoritarian model where the teacher makes the students do what they say and so on and so forth. So I I do believe they still need to exist, but a lot of shifts in how they operate. And Jimmy, why did you decide to home school? Like of course one part of it is the lifestyle that you have, but is it your disbelief in traditional schooling system or is it that you just feel you can do better than the teachers? Because you've been your teacher yourself. I I actually seek out teachers for my kids and I know that I couldn't do better, but we could offer more diversity. And I would say both of us find that school exhausts a lot of time for young people and restricts their ability to explore on their own terms. So for us, we recognize we can get through the core of literacy, numeracy in a couple hours in a day. And then that opens up a lot of time for projects that we can lead them along with or that the our kids invent and then at their age, no, I should say all ages, so important is their free play time which extends sometimes days at a time and I find myself just taken aback at the complexity and world building that they go through in their own free play, unstructured and unguided. So to me that's something that school has a lot of trouble letting go of. There's very few models in the world where free play is as respected as you can do in a home school environment like that.

21:42 Lovely. And do you feel that because you you obviously had formal education, do you feel like your kids will be able to with the current concepts and the way they're studying, design something as iconic as the Museum of Future? Yeah, it's it's really tough. What I do feel is there I I feel that we at least have a pulse on the skills and values that we believe make future-ready humans and citizens of the world that the world needs right now, I guess is a way to put it. The ones who value a lot of the their own impact and their own effect on others above prestige and ego. So a lot of those things I feel that we're definitely on the right track for.

22:39 >> [snorts] >> But we're also really open to the conversation with our kids. So we discuss regularly what what they're not getting being part of our home school and what what they would get instead if they were to go to school. So we provide a lot of uh opportunity for them to critique and understand the system that they are part of. Right. Many parents worry that, you know, non-traditional learning experiences may impact academic competitiveness. What do you have to say to that? Do you feel like children who are studying, you know, either home schooling or alternate education, do you feel like it's easy for them to blend into traditional curriculums, academic programs or, you know, competitive degrees that they may want to pursue? Definitely not easy for the home school kids often because they've been given agency and then having that taken away builds a certain resentment in the system.

23:46 Uh when it comes to things like academics, my my recommendation for parents who are really concerned about that is that they need to start asking a bigger question. Why are academics and grades what you're aiming for? Why is it that you have a target to send your 4-year-old to Harvard? What is it that they will get out of that experience that will actually help them flourish in life. And to me it's this one layer down and it's embracing a certain amount of uncertainty there where we start asking okay what is it that makes a human content? And those are the things that we can work towards.

24:34 Not to say that a lot of our our current sort of paradigm is shifting as as we're talking. So things like becoming a doctor and a lawyer which are incredibly sought after and knowledge-rich jobs might not be so desirable when you're competing with an AI that has all the knowledge at its fingertips knows how to execute it or likewise for a lawyer because yes, a lawyer still bring and a doctor can both bring a human touch but so can a nurse and a counselor. And so what jobs will spring up in parallel to those? It's interesting that you say that, you know, because I was going to be my next question. You know, I hear so many people talking about how we possibly don't need to send our kids for a just to send to any other country for an undergrad especially how the geopolitical situation is currently and we see a lot of Indian aspirants looking at foreign education and they've almost said that the master's degree is if you're taking debt for it, it makes absolutely no sense. Are you of the same opinion? Yeah, for for me and this is something a chunk of wisdom that I really felt that stuck with me, I guess I should say. It came from the then director of Green School, Chris Thompson and he said, you know, the kids who come here are they're they're getting such an excellent value for money because the network they're building at this school is the kind of network that I got at Stanford and that's actually where a lot of the value in these tertiary education models comes from is the people who you meet and get to know.

26:26 And so the question of whether that model will become redundant or not might be less relevant than if we can find different ways to build that network that we need to help us thrive in life. Right. Also, you know, we're talking of very few alternate schools, right? For parents, a large part of us. Let's understand for the former we're talking of top 1% population.

26:57 You know, who has the choice. For a large part of parents in Bombay, Delhi you know, Bengaluru or any other metro city in the world. What are the simplest ways to nurture place-based learning? Place-based learning is uh something that I think starts with curiosity and if your kids are young that means you as a parent need to be curious and start exploring as well. Uh the luxury of time is a hard one because I think this goes beyond your financial means, but your ability to take the time required to get to know a place is an enormous privilege to have and so that would be that would be one limitation there. I would say if you if you do have the time, you should by all means take it, get your kids out, start exploring the places in your neighborhood, start talking to the local artisans and coffee shop owners. See where you can build these authentic connections and then bring your kids on board. But it requires that time.

28:12 How can parents bring experiential real world learning into the home even if they don't live in a Bali or nature-based school? So I guess at the home front it would be a lot around listening to what your kids are curious about and asking them more questions and helping use our superior research skills, generally speaking, as adults to help them find the information and start unpacking. It also means getting out of the home a lot cuz there's only so many experiences that can happen within your four walls. And so taking them to the places in your neighborhood are a great start.

29:00 Of course, always asking the questions, looking for those moments where your kid's lighting up. Anytime a kid asks a question, you know you're on the right track. Right. Um Where Why is I'm sure a lot of your students, they would have faced failure or discomfort at some point in time and I'm sure you would have failed failed, you know, faced that as well with everything that you do and and when you were a student. Why is experiencing failure or discomfort important in learning? And what would you advise parents and how do you ex- expect parents to respond to those struggles? Yeah, so failure is a tricky word because it comes loaded automatically. If you call somebody a failure, and that's a slight. It hurts here.

29:51 Uh but it actually failure is I think one of the most powerful learning tools you could ever have. And it comes down to the approach you take when failure occurs. So, finding ways to reflect and understand why failure happens is enormous. Uh avoiding any kind of stigma around failure is really key. So, failure on a test let's just give a straightforward example. A kid fails a test.

30:26 Uh in a classroom management case, it's really hard because you might have 10 kids out of the 30 or 40 in your class who failed. Uh but these are actually where the opportunities come to learn the most. How did they fail? What was their mental model that they uh got to before things tripped them up. And providing space so that rather than making that a stigma, you make it a challenge, a riddle to solve. And then as a group, you can start unpacking. Ooh, the failure was maybe this concept wasn't there. How would we approach this concept? And then suddenly uh you've turned failure into a learning opportunity.

31:10 Uh in a classroom, for parents it it comes down to really again taking that time asking questions, uh doing a lot of reflective practice with your kids. Incredible. Incredible that you say that because uh you know, and you know, in a lot of the workshops and sessions that I do, um you know, I and when I ask parents that uh what are the times that you get angry or you feel like you're not a good parent or you lose consciousness as a parent. And they'll be like, when my child is doing math. Right? And they say that or subjects that the child doesn't like, but more more often than not it's math. Yeah. Um why why is it such a jinx subject and why do so many kids fear it?

31:53 >> Yeah. It I think because it is one of the most concrete and observable uh learning outcome-based subjects you have. I understand these concepts. I can demonstrate mastery of it by doing these problems. Okay, now I can move on to the next one. The logic is all there, and it's very easy to chunk. >> [snorts] >> I have uh one of my favorite teaching experiences was doing something called problem-solving, which involved maths with kids, and we had mixed-age group kids. This was in Hungary.

32:30 And we would give them one problem to solve that on on its outlook didn't look complicated. There was no big numbers. There was no like here's the formula you apply. But it gave true challenges, ones that the teachers wouldn't even necessarily uh for uh a lifelong relationship where we are constantly understanding and growing alongside them.

35:05 If you have to incorporate AI in education and school systems in a healthy way, what would that be? I I love AI as a tool. I would never treat it as a subject. And this is really important is when we take something that is so applied and turn it into the topic I feel like we miss a lot of uh a lot of its power. So, I would say first and foremost, AI will serve a ton of purposes behind the scenes. Uh there's AI that can support uh educators in building lessons off the questions kids ask. And then helping to map those to curricula.

35:50 That's amazing to see implemented and something that I think will change the way that educators operate. Uh another one is we can use AI to reflect on or to help us take an authentic experience. Uh let's say my daughters went to the zoo. They had some really great questions. They do a 2-minute recording after the zoo about what they saw, what they learned, what their questions were.

36:21 AI can then take that transcript talk about the learning outcomes and skills that it is observing there. And then it's done 90% of the work for educators to be able to take an authentic experience and ground that in learning outcomes. And so these are some teacher-focused ways. When it comes to the students, it's to me the kind of thing where uh you give them a project and or or an assignment, whatever you want to call it, but projects are my favorite, by the way. Uh and in that project, it offers them a challenge.

37:02 Within that challenge, it's never explicit saying use AI to do this. But allow it to be emergent. Some of the kids might say, "Oh, you know what? We we don't find any images of this uh for this project. Can we use AI to generate them?" Yes, absolutely. There you go. There's your opportunity to engage with it. Oh, we're not sure how we can say this shorter. You said we needed to make this in 1,000 words, and we can't get it uh below 2,000.

37:35 Let's use AI, and then let's use that as a revision tool. So, I mean, the mo- more we can reflect authentic uses in the real world, the more I think powerful it is for the learners. Right. And what would you say to students who are I know you just said that, but who are currently using it for everything? How is it crippling their thought process? And what are the what are the consequences they're going to face? So, my feeling is uh that the >> the you've been chief advisor to the Museum of Future, so you can see through that crystal ball. Yeah. And I I've read the I've read the MIT uh research talking about how uh how reductive thought processes have become amongst undergrads. Not just uh younger kids, but undergrads due to the overuse of AI.

38:31 And so, a lot of it comes down to the system that supports it. Systems that say, "Write an essay uh doing these 10 things." And allows for a kid to copy-paste that into AI and then do slight modifications and get that passed off and be able to be told that's okay. That doesn't feel like the exercise is relevant anymore. It feels like we're applying an outdated model of how we assess kids.

39:05 Instead, we could say, "Hey, we're we're going to be writing a uh a a news article, uh and we want people to read this. Can we use AI? Yes. Do you know if it will become more readable or less readable through AI? That's a good question. How about we test two different versions and start exploring what's different when it's 100% human read versus uh 100% AI generated? Which one do people like more? And suddenly it gives you a way to use it and still maintain those critical thinking skills.

39:44 Amazing. You mentioned about the MIT report on reductive understanding. Do you want to share a little bit more about the report and and and what you learned? Broad brush strokes is very simply that uh the they looked at a uh sample of students and noticed that their capacity to go deep into things uh has become reduced. So, based on how much they use AI to support their workflow.

40:15 Interesting. And I would I would just say that this is where dialogue uh becomes a incredibly powerful tool. Dialogue is actually a huge part of how we learn. Talking to our friends, talking to our teacher, talking to our parents. And it's also something that AI I guess you could have a dialogue with AI, which some people do. Uh but it's not the same as when you're talking to a human cuz there's no body language involved.

40:47 There's uh generally a very supportive and logical thought process. Uh the the critique it provides uh it it might not be uh emotionally loaded, which is a huge part of how humans respond. So, so I think this is the kind of shifts that I expect our education models will need to respond to is ones that allow for more opportunities to learn through dialogue and through uh real human interaction rather than assessments that are done on paper. The pressure of assessments and tests and exams and all of that. What is the role of an exam and do you do you believe that kids need to be assessed? Uh short answer would be not really.

41:36 Uh My kids aren't listening to this one. >> Yeah. I I say this because I think we've corrupted the term assessment. And so, things like exams and tests are I don't believe authentic assessments. If you were to look at the etymology of the word assessment, it comes from French assir, which means to sit. And it's to sit next to and to me this is a really genuine form of assessment. An educator sitting next to a learner, listening to them talk about their understanding and un- and then helping them unpack that. If that was assessment, I'm all for it. But, the standardized tests, I think are uh a large industry that needs to fail.

42:27 And the faster the better. Incredible. Um according to you, what are the top five skills a child must develop uh for 2030 and beyond outside of academics? I think communication is one that's come across several times in this interview. Uh I believe like we're talking about critical thinking is really important. The ability to not just accept anything at face value. Uh systems thinking to me is such an important skill. And that is being able to see the connections even if those connections are completely in our imagination.

43:08 But, starting to connect disparate pieces of the world together and understand the systems that drive them is amazing. Uh I would say compassion and empathy is also a core piece there because that that's something that you'll never authentically get from something that isn't human. Uh oh. Something that isn't a living being, I guess is a better way cuz I I would say that some of our pets provide that.

43:39 Absolutely. Empathy and compassion. Uh And then finally, curiosity. It's it's one of the drivers for learning and uh it's also going back to that idea of what we're born with. Curiosity you see is at its peak in young kids. And my belief is actually we never lose this. We get it drilled out of us. And so, why not try to maintain that curiosity and wonder that uh we were born with innately.

44:14 Interesting. You know, on a the former question that I asked you about assessments and grades and competitive uh testing, you know, I I I still wonder why are or I don't know if you wonder as well that why are a large part of uh great institutions still believing that it's the only way um to test you. Some parts of the US education don't, but I know a large part of the UK education does. The Indian education system does it. Um do you feel like standardized testing is the only way to assess an individual and his capabilities into a program? It's funny because COVID demonstrated that we can do things differently. Um there was a couple years that universities scrapped their standardized entrance exams uh in the US at least I'm aware of. And uh they have the data there. So, they know what what they're working with.

45:20 I believe one of the challenges we have is uh the scale that education happens on. Uh the secondary schools and tertiary education places are so large that that more human touch becomes incredibly challenging. And >> that that is also something that I see trends towards replacing. If I was to uh if I was to give my daughters my top 10 recommended tertiary institutions, all of them are pretty small and uh fairly intimate environments that do things quite differently.

46:00 Interesting that you say that um because I still feel like while we believe in it, uh I still see parents or educators or schools still, you know, saying, "Oh, my child's going to Howard or Stanford or Yale." And the instant respect, admiration that that brings versus "Oh, my child's going to this boutique college in the United States and it's very small and things like that." Why do you think as a race we're still so caught up in recognition and and validation and not what's right for us?

46:39 I I think it's a reinforcing thing. Uh if if I didn't know what Harvard was and somebody's like, "Oh, my kid's going to Harvard." I'd be like, "Okay, what is that?" And ask a genuine question. But, because I've heard that a number of times, it creates this certain amount of name recognition. Mhm. It's the same thing as marketing. It's brand recognition. And uh I I can tell you from personal experience, the brands I recognize aren't necessarily the brands that are going to do me the best. Uh Yeah. But, uh there is a there's something going on in this uh skull that makes it so that certain words that are repeated thousands of times stick and suddenly I get triggered when I hear them. So, I think there's some innate humanness that is hard for us to reverse engineer.

47:36 Uh That's going to take some time to do is break those prestige and uh Yeah. The glory surrounding these big names. But, then at the same time, uh those organizations are there because they were breaking ground at a certain era, at a certain time. Uh There are organizations now who are doing the exact same thing that 20 years down the line will seem like uh common names because everybody recognizes it. And I'd much rather that's the type of place my kid goes to is the one that was breaking new ground than the one that uh lies on its laurels.

48:24 Right. So, this one I'll share a bit of anecdote. I was driving with my uh grandma in France and we passed by this structure that was run down and she's like, "Oh, that's where I used to go to wash my clothes." And I was like, "Oh, you didn't wash them at home?" She's like, "No, no. We had to walk out here and go to this place." And I'm like, "Wow, must have taken a while." She's like, "Yeah, it was all day Wednesday was clothes washing day."

48:54 And my first reaction is I'm like, "Aren't you glad you have a washing machine?" She's like, "Yeah, but I miss that time, too." And then she talked about how that was the Wednesday crowd came together. It was her time to meet neighbors. She brought her kids along and they would play with the other kids. And so, this this kind of clued me in that often we we take something that is convenient and we say, "Let's do this. This is good for us." And we forget all the externalities that come with it. So, >> Yeah. they lost a point of connection in their community by buying a washing machine. They suddenly had to start thinking about arranging playdates. I mean, every parent thinks about that nowadays.

49:43 That never happened when >> [laughter] >> you knew Wednesdays you'd be meeting your friends there. So That's so interesting that you say that because, you know, um India is a huge quick commerce market. Mhm. Right? Um and we have deliveries that can happen for literally anything in less than 10 to 15 minutes. And, you know, the other day my husband and I were arguing and he said, "Why can't you just order it on quick commerce?" And I was like you know, I actually am quite old school and I like going down to the grocery store because I will meet I will touch and feel the product and I will find a friend along in the elevator and then when I go to buy, you know, do veggie shopping, I will chat with >> Yeah. um with with the lady who's selling it and then I will ask her to check if there are some vegetables I'm unsure of and I'll ask her, "Is this okay? Is this ripe enough? Is Is this going to be fresh?" Um and, you know, is this the right one? And he's like, "Why do you want to engage in some random conversation with a random person?"

50:44 And I literally had no answer, but I answered it for myself and I said, "I kind of enjoy it." And I don't know if it's a man versus a woman thing, but I enjoy these touch points of human connections because I think increasingly I'm craving it even more because a large part of my work is on screens and I I really crave it because I just feel like I don't want to hue lose the humanness to the human because they're just pockets of it now that we get, right? And you're absolutely right.

51:18 I don't need to really schedule in um a weekly coffee with my friend because if I'm more present and conscious in the time that I'm spending in the elevator or at the grocery store or with the vegetable vendor, I mean, I just I just get that human connection and I like listening to their stories sometimes and it just fills my cup with with more stories, which is essentially what we all crave. And that is such an important piece there. Going back to Yuval Noah Harari, the power of story and uh the alternative is so you save half an hour by not having to go to the grocery store and you flip through 400 Instagram posts >> and [snorts] you come out of it with your mind just like in in like frenetic caffeine mode or you could have gone down and you might have learned something that could change your life in that moment. Who knows?

52:13 >> Absolutely. Absolutely. We're taking too much of your time, but I just need to do a quick rapid fire, so you just need to ask me answer just in about a word. I'll just ask you for 5 more minutes. Um so let's go. What should children do more of? Ask, explore, build, observe, collaborate, or question? Play is my answer, which has all of those, by the way. Yeah. Lovely. One subject schools must add. >> Get rid of subjects entirely.

52:38 Okay. One thing schools should stop doing immediately. Tests. Okay. What are three things we see at the Museum of Future that no other museum has? A optimistic look at the future. Another is I've never met such a diverse staff as a museum. It was amazing. And then uh a chance to see an amazing building inside and out. >> One teacher who made a difference or had an impact on your life. Uh my architecture teacher, Mr. Whitfield.

53:07 Forgot about curriculum and went straight for projects all year. One belief parents must unlearn. That they know better than their kids. Okay, I love that one. If your life were a book, what would the title be? The world is my classroom. Lovely. If there were a museum of parenting, what are the three things that must be there? So there needs to be a gallery of failures, uh common failures. >> [laughter] >> I love it. I I think I'm investing in that museum.

53:37 >> Yeah, I I think it's a good idea. And then there should also be uh a parenting through the ages to see the timelessness of certain parts and the uh how much has changed. And then it would be great having like a uh parent simulator where you get to do role play. Oh, interesting. Um the coolest project you've ever seen a student build. There's been so many, but uh off the top of my head one of my students named Dipta created this project for recharge wells at a smaller level, which he called biopores, and it was beautifully uh thought out and delivered.

54:19 Okay. One thing you wish every child could experience before 16. True sense of on wonder that nature brings. Okay. One school memory that shaped you shaped who you are. Uh connects right into this. I went to Mammoth Caves as a 16-year-old and uh went on a cave trip for 8 hours and it changed my life. Amazing. Okay. Um if kids designed the school, what's the first thing they would add?

54:50 Depends on the age, but I'd say they would be most worried about the social spaces uh the play facilities and the bathrooms. >> [laughter] >> Okay. What does a successful adult look like 20 years from now? Compassionate and caring, always curious, and uh ready to engage whatever the world has to deliver. Interesting. One moment in your teaching career that still gives you goosebumps. To see many of the kids wanting to actively stay behind after school hours when we were doing role-playing games because they were so invested in the activity and didn't want school to end. Amazing. You did fairly well.

55:32 Uh thank you so much. It has been an incredible chat. And a very stimulating one, I must say. Thank you, Mansi. It was a pleasure. For parenting tips, celebrity interviews, recipes, conversations with experts, DIYs, and lots more. Subscribe to Kids Stop Press now.