Running two profitable unicorns in India | Asish Mohapatra, OfBusiness | Unstarted

0:00 How are entrepreneurs born or made? >> They never born. Because it is a skill that has to be learned the hard way. Predominantly because to be a good entrepreneur you need to have inversely correlated skills in you. >> You're a strength finder for yourself. You're a strength finder in people. That's how you motivate a lot of people. Many of us are weakness finders. >> Right. >> And we are not as focused on multiplying somebody's strength. >> All these young kids they will complain about 70-hour weeks. You're doing it in three and a half days. You're doing it in half >> [laughter] >> half the week.

0:31 That's what they need to learn. That's what it takes. There are no shortcuts. >> Welcome to Unstarted. What is unique about this show is [music] this is about you. It is for founders by founders. >> I am super excited to invite Ashish today on Unstarted. Lots of shared context and history. He used to work with us with me. Uh under you. Under me and he is one of those that fired his boss. Basically he left.

1:03 Welcome Ashish. Uh we have a high bar. Our Matrix Moments episode is supposedly the most listened to. Uh and you gave a lot of very good insights there. So really excited to have you on this one. Uh we are going to mix it up here and take questions that have come in uh from the audience. CEO of OffBusiness, founder and CEO, uh husband-wife team. Uh Ruchi runs Oxyzo. So we'll get into all of this as well.

1:30 On paper IIT Kharagpur, ISB. I know you're a uh Oriya. Lot of people and you in particular are larger than life for founders who are starting out. Uh they don't they will know you in that strata of founders that they get inspired by. But probably not think of themselves as being able to get there. Uh and I know you are very human uh even though we joke sometimes that you're not human because of how hard you work. So >> I had this nickname Maha Sapien.

2:03 >> Maha Sapien, exactly. Which is from Homo Sapien, which is for humans. So we used to call him his his I think ITC McKinsey everywhere Maha Sapien. >> McKinsey name we like. >> Yeah. So let's go all the way back. Where are you born and raised? And very quickly, what's the journey been before we come to our business and the questions? And I I'm told that you you were discussing about your vulnerability. So maybe some of those are on the [laughter] way.

2:29 >> So um So looking forward [clears throat] to this podcast doing a one after almost a year. I think one of the big reasons I like doing podcasts with with you is because of the introduction. I'm really feeling good right now. So thanks for that. Um born and brought up in Cuttack, Odisha. Um spent a little bit of time um in Bengal because my dad and mom were doing their PhDs in Kharagpur. So spent close to 7 years in Kharagpur while growing up.

2:56 Then finished my schooling in Cuttack. Uh dabbled with a few businesses here and there. Though I had nothing to do with that. I I did it purely for pocket money because my parents were of the simple opinion that the lesser pocket money that is given to a guy, the the more he'll be focused on studies. Uh did that. Uh I think went to Kharagpur straight out of Cuttack. Um was a mechanical engineer. Um was a very social guy at campus. If you want, I will tell you what that means. But people used to know me.

3:27 >> Please tell us what that means. [laughter] Weren't you also a debater? >> Uh yeah I was. I was. Yeah, I used to I I still debate. Uh can't win ones with you, but I guess uh Yeah I guess uh coming from that side of the world >> Yeah. >> uh thinking philosophically comes naturally to you, right? And I think >> was my worry because Bongs are very philosophical. And I And then you said don't insult me.

3:54 So [laughter] we won't go there. >> So went to Kharagpur. Kharagpur I think was a big eye-opener for me in some ways. >> Cuttack is a very small town. I think it still lives three decades behind what Indian metros are today. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um there my mind opened up. Met a lot of guys who were kind of who were from very different backgrounds. And uh I was a very social guy. Wanted to be with people, learn from them. Um thankfully didn't have to um study a lot to be good in studies.

4:21 >> Mhm. >> Uh and uh I would say Kharagpur pretty much built what I am today. Which is to do little and uh um make as much output out of it. Uh over a period of time I started working hard. Uh but I think Kharagpur is one of my best times where I really enjoyed what I was doing. Uh went to ITC straight out of campus. >> Are you still in touch with So one of the themes that we have seen come across in this podcast is all the entrepreneurs seem to have somehow compounded every experience of their life into where they are today.

4:53 >> Yes. >> Is Kharagpur part of your life? >> So so to be very honest with you, the way it has happened for me Abhi and I would love everybody [clears throat] to do that because it does add value to your life, which is at every stage in life you'll always have a large network. But you can easily cherry-pick the ones who are going to go up in life and at the same time be relevant to you.

5:14 >> Yeah. >> Right? That's probably 10% of the network that you will have at every stage in life. The good guys actually make sure that they are in touch with them. So I would say that that 10% is still in touch. >> And I know and I know you've done a very good job of it. But how do you do it? Because and those 10% >> Huh. >> typically end up being the busiest people. >> Yes.

5:34 >> And therefore they also become very selective about who they stay in touch with. >> Huh. >> And I know this is your superpower. How do you do it? >> Um I will tell you uh that it is not that difficult simply because they also realize the same thing. Uh if they don't realize it at some point in time they will do. Uh, and hence they are also looking for the same thing. See, people want to be around great people. That's as as simple as that, right?

5:55 >> People want to be around great people. >> Right. So, people want to be around great people. That's the only way you can go. I mean, with all the AI and stuff with people getting abolished day in day out, I think that's under challenge right now. But, uh, but that's something I picked up at Kharagpur. It was very easy for me to kind of look at a guy and say that, "Hey, this is a guy who will life me which karega."

6:15 >> And you're in touch with them. >> Uh, yes. Very much. Very much. >> fast forward. >> Uh, went to McKinsey. Uh, sorry. Went to ITC straight out of campus. Was largely in manufacturing. Um, mostly on the shop floor. Uh, was a good shop floor guy because I loved machines. I was a true blue mechanical engineer at heart. Picked up a very different kind of uh, of set of people there. Again, very much in touch with them. ITC in fact was my favorite hunting ground to actually build our initial team at at our business and Oxizo when we started up.

6:42 >> And the culture lot of things I I have heard you talk about ITC a lot. Even potentially sometimes more than McKinsey. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ITC pretty much. I think one big value that I learned [clears throat] there and uh, it's very easy to forget is that if you're a good servant, you'll be a good master. So, spend uh, a a bulk of your time serving very good without asking questions, right? So, ITC uh, taught us how um, if you're thrown at the deep end of the pool and you don't ask questions, you will grow by yourself.

7:13 So, 3 years at ITC again in touch with maybe 20% more than what Kharagpur was. Um, then went did my MBA from ISB Hyderabad. Uh, it's a year's course so has no institutional memory. So, mostly in touch with my batch but in touch with maybe 30% of that batch. Right? Uh, then went to McKinsey. Uh, in touch with probably half of uh, which my network was at McKinsey. Uh, then McKinsey about I went to Matrix. Uh, in touch with everyone at Matrix.

7:42 They would do it this way. Uh, so one good thing of my I would say my academic as well as professional journey is is this ability to actually know that life may put it on the side to tomorrow which would you like that's how when I know we had discussions when all of this text up was happening did you see yourself as an entrepreneur or entrepreneurs born or made and How does it apply for you? They never won because it is a skill that has to be learned the hard way predominantly because to be a good entrepreneur you need to have inversely correlated skills in you.

8:23 You can be born you can be born with one skill you will never have the have the reverse skill because God will instill one thing into you that I'm a good very good sales guy right but as an entrepreneur you need to be extremely detailed oriented otherwise you know the ground behind you will Just slip away and you'll never know right? So I think because there are lots of inversely correlated skills like for example in my opinion for in the world that I started up it actually at least needs four skills. You need to be a good sales guy.

8:55 You need to be very good with people the third is you need to be very commercial and fourth is you should have the ability to kind of milk a stone for milk right which means work Really really hard I think all four if you have the flare you can't really work hard you will try to manage with flare so in my opinion they're always created very interesting we had a question actually on sales can we can we bring that up learning sales skills hi so as a founder I feel I'm good at product and tech but when it comes to sales I feel very intimidated how do I overcome this so you were just talking about these skill sets that you believe almost everything can be learned.

9:42 Specifically, sales. Uh actually, I also want to learn about this hard work thing because you mentioned that you didn't used to work hard. I believe you have a lot of flair, but you still work very hard. So, let's tackle first and how you have applied it at the off business company building in terms of teaching people and you have a philosophy. So, let's cover all of that starting with this question on if you are a product guy, can you really learn sales and and how do you go about it?

10:09 >> So, there is this concept that I learned in MBA, which was uh you should know what whether to build or to buy. Okay? Whenever at least [snorts] in my life, whenever I've seen a skill, I have tried to take this decision very quickly, which is whether I should be outsourcing that skill or building that within myself. Okay? >> Um that requires a certain orientation, but the specific skill that you need for this decision to be made is to have extremely high levels of intellectual honesty.

10:42 >> Yeah. >> Because you can fool yourself into believing that you can learn everything. >> Yeah. >> I am very, very clear that out of maybe the 10 skills that are required to be an entrepreneur, four of which we just highlighted, I probably have two, maybe three, and I'm very clear that the other six or seven needs to be completely outsourced. And you need to find the right guy who stands for those kind of skills and is getting better in those.

11:09 >> Yeah. >> Uh so so I'm a big uh so I have a lot >> a lot to unpack there. Actually, let's go all the way back. >> Uh-huh. >> IIT people are extremely competitive. >> Yeah. >> McKinsey people are extremely competitive. >> Hyper competitive. >> I I don't know as much of the ISB context, but >> I I come from hyper >> hyper hyper competitive cultures. >> Uh-huh. >> Most teaches people actually to be very insecure and want to project that they are good with everything. It It teaches intellectual dishonesty.

11:37 >> Yes. >> How did you get comfortable and with your own skin to When did you Was there a trigger to be so comfortable actually >> Because I tried developing skills >> Yeah. >> which I wasn't good at. >> Yeah. For example >> I will tell you my initial days at engineering. >> Yeah. >> You know um I was in my second year. I was a mechanical engineer. I was uh good with kinetics, stuff that was being taught, thermodynamics and all that. But the new wave then, I'm talking this is '99-'2000. So that was the time of the tech boom which had just come in. And people were learning C++, Java, making models out of it. Internet had just hit the campus and stuff like that.

12:15 >> Yeah. >> I wanted to go there. I thought I would be able to do that. I just couldn't pull it off. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right? Because my world orientation, my entire orientation was very uh so I failed at that. I again failed the moment I completed my campus and stepped into ITC. Um I was very good with maintenance of machines. But when it came to, you know, designing schedules of preventive maintenance, I was a very good reactive guy.

12:38 >> Yeah. >> But to actually plan out something for a year uh strategically make sure that, you know, things will always be in line. I was not that great at it. I was a very good executor, not a great planner. >> Very good. You know, one of the things that has come across in many podcasts that we have done is there is a theme running through their through a person's life which, by the way I would I am realizing only when I'm doing these things. And I remember when you used to give me feedback on how I give feedback.

13:06 You used to come and You gave me a book, StrengthsFinder. >> Yeah, StrengthsFinder 2.0. >> StrengthsFinder 2.0 which, by the way, we then incorporated into our review cycle, right? So basically, you have been consistently one of those and I know it's your management style, which is a great management style. You're a finder. You're a strength finder for yourself. You're a strength finder in people. That's how you motivate a lot of people. That's how you surround yourself with people. And I think it's a big lesson for people because many of us are weakness finders.

13:38 >> Right. >> And we are not as focused on multiplying somebody's strength. >> Right. Right. Right. >> But let's go back to the question. I don't know sales. How do I learn sales? Should I even bother? Or in your framework, focus on what you're very good at. >> Mhm. >> And surround yourself with people of the complementary skill set. >> Is that the answer? >> So so so so let's just dissect that problem, right? >> Yeah.

14:01 >> So um sticking to sales, right? >> Yeah. >> If you're great at product, let's say, and sales is required to take that product to the market. The first question that you need to decide is do you have the inherent bandwidth to develop sales? Because everything requires effort. >> Yeah. >> If you don't have bandwidth and you're getting consumed in product, anyways you have to outsource. Let's say you have the bandwidth. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Yeah.

14:22 >> If you have the bandwidth, you have the chance to build sales. >> Yeah. >> Now, if you have the if you want to build sales and you have the bandwidth, there are in my opinion, there are three things to be done. >> Yeah. >> And you can very quickly know whether you can do it or not. >> Mhm. >> The first is are you a guy who actually connects at a very basic level with human beings in general? Because that's sales, right? Sales is about an interaction that you have to win.

14:42 A very simple interaction. If you're doing it with your wife, if you're doing it with your kids, if you're doing it with your parents, you're doing it with your boss, you would likely you likely have something to start. >> Very good. >> Right? If you are okay with that, then there is a second. The second is can you dovetail that personal intrinsic effort of actually connecting with people? Can you take that and apply it to a context that is new?

15:04 >> Mhm. >> Are you a good adopter? >> Mhm. >> Right? >> Mhm. >> If you're not, you can't do that. Right? [clears throat] Again, the third thing is once having done both, are you mentally oriented to actually putting a lot of effort to build the first two? >> Yeah. >> And this decision, in my opinion, can be made in in minutes. And if you don't and >> to your [clears throat] framework, maybe first one is more intrinsic. Second one should be quite learnable, right?

15:27 >> Which one is which is the one around >> adopting to a situation. >> Uh that is the one which is much tougher. >> It is tougher, but if if you don't have the ability to connect >> Yes. >> you should just not attempt to push yourself in this area that >> Absolutely right. Absolutely. So, I'll [clears throat] tell you I was listening to a podcast today morning. >> Yeah. >> And there was this podcast was about A.R. Rahman. Okay?

15:48 A.R. Rahman, um there were five people coming in and they were trying to praise A.R. Rahman as if he's the god of music, which he is. But they all said that he doesn't connect to people intrinsically. So, he can't be a sales guy. >> Yeah. >> And when A.R. Rahman came in, the first thing that he said is that I don't know why these guys are speaking so highly of me. I can't connect with them. >> Yeah.

16:06 >> So, he failed at the first level, and he had that intellectual honesty. >> Yeah. >> So, in my opinion, if it's 1 + 3, do you have the bandwidth? And second, go through this. >> Yeah. >> Go through this. >> I think one important meta lesson is I do believe startups are hard. They are 90% of the time going to They are going to 90% of the time fail. Your job as an entrepreneur is to stack odds in your favor.

16:30 It starts by being intellectually honest. >> Right. >> Start with intellectual honest, and then we'll come to your choice of co-founders because then surround yourself >> Right. >> with with people who are like that. Going back to the choice of becoming an entrepreneur other than [clears throat] rejecting me as a boss, what about So, by the way, my other view is that sales is a very necessary skill as an entrepreneur. And so, the other takeaway potentially for people is one, if if you are not the sales person, somebody in the founding team needs to Right? Ideally, the main founder, but at least some co-founder because you're always selling, right? To >> I'll give you one nugget I read some time back. It said that an entrepreneur needs to be a great sales guy.

17:14 But every sales guy will not become an entrepreneur. That's important to realize. >> Say more about the second. >> Um if you're a great sales guy and if you don't have some other inversely correlated skills, you'll never make it. >> And say more about inversely correlated skills. >> you will never be commercial. You can always down sell and sell a lot, right? Because you need to make money. Your cash needs to get realized. You need to make a profit out of that sale.

17:38 >> So what are your inversely So I know you're a great sales person and I know you're hyper commercial. Is that Is that And you're not a tech guy. Which is why Which is why you said tech mech ne karna. >> Yeah. >> But today you guys have a great tech business. >> Uh yes because because I outsource that skill. I think the other key one is whether you want to work hard. What I've seen is that people who have a lot of flair >> Yeah.

18:00 >> tend to build >> coast through life. Want to coast through life. >> Want to coast through life and they figured out a way that flair will actually, you know, take them out of every tough situation. >> Yeah, but then they when when when hits the fan, they won't last. >> That's right. That's right. That's right. >> You make mention something else which I do want to pick up on. Why you listening to a podcast about A.R. Rahman running a B2B manufacturing business? I know you have very varied interests. Say more about all the all your interests including poetry.

18:30 >> Again, um something that I would love to change now. At my peak I used to have 20 hobbies. Um writing poetry, reading about poetry, quizzing, um watching movies. I still watch about three movies a week. Uh stamp >> even now >> All right. Um listening to music, uh playing an instrument, uh collecting stamps, >> Yeah. >> uh collecting coins and stuff like that. I personally think that all of [clears throat] this is important because uh frankly it is a great stress buster.

19:06 Because the work that we do, whether it is you or me, creates a lot of inherent stress. >> Yeah. >> And I'm paid for taking stress, right? >> Absorbing it, yeah. >> Uh so, if you have inherent stress busters in your life, you can take a lot more stress in what you do. >> It's very good. And also, I've noticed that it gives you the ability to speak on almost every topic. And which which obviously then helps you. So, I think that's another actionable that and especially in the context of sales, one of the things to think about is what are my other interests and can I use them to connect with people?

19:36 >> Correct. Correct. >> So, let's go you spoke about inversely correlated skills. We'll take one question which is about choice of co-founders, whether people should have co-founders when they're starting out. >> Hello, my name is Jasol and I'm one of the founders of Sandal Club. My question is, as a CEO, how do you lead and work with your co-founders and your CXO team? >> Speak about your wife is your and there are husband-wife teams that have asked us questions.

20:07 Your wife was at McKinsey. Let's talk a little bit more about her background. Um the choice of her as a co-founder, what kind of dynamics played out over a period of time? And you attracted a very very strong founding team and and CXOs and I would say 5-6 years ago itself I used to say you have the strongest team for the stage of the company and obviously now that has become even stronger with the addition of a CFO. Let's talk about all of this, the thought process and the philosophy.

20:37 >> So, for me it was very simple. I knew I couldn't be good everything. I knew I was good at a couple of things at best. Maybe I probably built one more, so maybe I'm I'm good at three out of 10, right? So, the seven had to be outsourced. >> Yeah. >> Um luckily I found two at home. And I had to look for the other five, right? Um I only looked through my network and found out people who were great in those five. Uh tried selling them as much as possible.

21:04 Luckily, some of them said yes. The core of what I'm trying to say is that in my case uh since I had failed so much in trying to build skills which are inverted, I did not want to take that chance when I was starting up. To your point about uh making the odds in your favor >> your strengths and you wanted people very clearly with certain strengths. >> Absolutely right. >> And went through a network to do that.

21:28 >> And went through a network to do that. And also one simple point I think which uh worked well for us again came because we failed uh and learned from it was that once you are hiring somebody with inversely correlated skill there needs to be some level of deep-seated connect on one thing wherein you actually feel that that guy is similar to me because we and he and I have one deep thing in common. If you have that, you will always inherently build respect because otherwise if it's yin and yang, you're always uh you don't have one level of connect. So, you need to have at least one level of connect. There needs to be one common value that kind of binds you together.

22:04 That's all we were looking for. >> And give a Could you share examples? >> One is hands-on. >> Yeah. >> I always like hands-on people. I don't like people who are uh who who delegate, armchair. Well, that's a personal choice. I think it works well for uh other situations. But in my case, hands-on is a very critical uh value that connects me to other people. >> Interesting. So, hands-on was very important to you. Clearly, I I I guess now that you say it I don't see any real people with flair in your culture. And I think that again comes back to your view that somewhere and you are being judgmental about it, but it's good that people with flair try to take too many shortcuts.

22:44 >> Yeah. >> And you are not I know you are built the opposite. From what I remember, you were known in McKinsey to sleep in the office. >> Yeah. >> And and it probably still happens today. >> do, yeah. >> How many years are we now into this? 10 years? >> Uh yeah, 10th year. >> 10 years. >> 10th year. >> And you were just telling me you are you are working 20 hours a day. So so so so so >> Cut this out of the podcast, but yes.

23:04 >> Why? 20 yard days is great. [laughter] >> I wouldn't advise people to do so. >> Why? I I All these young kids, they complain about 70-hour weeks. You're doing it in 3 and 1/2 days. You're doing it in half half the week. >> [laughter] >> That's what they need to learn. That's what it takes. There are no shortcuts. Anyway, >> Yeah. >> coming back. >> Yeah. >> So, wife husband-wife team. >> Uh >> Many in fact, lately we have we've been meeting more and more of those.

23:31 >> Yeah. >> I am sure all kinds of discussions happen and uh you know, for them. >> Yeah. >> One, how do you keep it uh what was the going-in view? Uh and I I remember some of those discussions. How is that played out? And any advice to other husband-wife teams? >> Uh going-in discussion was very simple. Um um I uh have always made a list of things that I'm looking for. I can tell you what I'm looking for right now as well. Uh I think uh I uh kind of for the venture to succeed, I had made a list of 10 things. It It was a square 10.

24:03 I had two in the beginning. She had three. So, she she made it into that list. >> So, what were those? >> Uh one was extremely high detail orientation. Uh that was one. Second was a network uh into the financial world. >> Yes. >> Right? Uh and she was well regarded there because of her uh uh academic and professional pursuits. I think the third thing was uh she could bind stuff together because I was a I was a sales guy, so I was on the field.

24:28 So, somebody had to kind of >> You know, tomato. >> Uh tomato there at the back end, right? >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Bola hai usko? >> Uh >> [laughter] >> on this stage. Thank you for bringing that out. >> Okay. >> The first one I always say, detail orientation. >> Yeah. Okay, good. So, and how has that played out? Any advice to other husband-wife teams on you've obviously made it work. And by the way, credit to Ruchi. She was pregnant when you quit.

25:00 >> Yeah, yeah. >> And when you guys started the business. So >> Our baby is about, I [snorts] mean Our baby then, Khushi. She is 6 days older than the incorporation of the business. So >> Wow, amazing. >> Yeah, so >> So advice, how has that played out? >> Advice is very simple. First of all, husband and wife is a partner and a partner. >> Yeah. >> Treat wife or the wife should treat the husband as you treat a normal partner.

25:27 >> Yeah. >> What do you do with a normal partner? You debate, you divide and hopefully you conquer, right? >> So don't assume that your personal relationship should be the same as your >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I >> professional relationship should be actually different. >> Yeah, actually. Actually, see see what happens in a personal relationship is people try to take liberties. >> Yes. >> Right? They will kind of assume that stuff is probably known. They will probably jump the level of professional courtesy that you will extend to, you know, professional individuals and all that. But the moment you believe that, you know, that is off, you will succeed.

26:01 It's like two people succeeding. >> But this is a very important point. I I can see that you would potentially the praise, for example, and appreciation you would give to other people in your organization, you may not do for your spouse. >> Yeah, you may not because you'll assume. >> You'll just assume or you'll say it at home. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, in fact, I'll give you an anecdote here. Um one of our lending partners, large banks um after having been in a lending relationship with us for about 3 years, they came and asked us in a joint meeting and they were like seven of us saying that why is yours, meaning Ruchi's, address on Aadhaar? Because this came from the risk team.

26:37 I Why is the address on Aadhaar exactly the same as Ashish's? >> Yeah, because Ruchi hasn't changed her last name. >> Ruchi hasn't changed her last name. >> And they don't know about the relationship. >> And it was not obvious that they were husband and wife, right? So I think that level of discipline is required. That's the only key to success. >> Yeah. >> And it just requires self-control. And the only way you can exercise self-control is if you have failed by not exercising it.

26:59 >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Yeah. >> And I had seen husband and wife fighting with each other so much. >> Yeah. >> And I knew that the only reason they fight is because they assume that a lot of stuff is known. >> Yeah. >> Very >> That a lot of stuff can be sorted out, right? >> So so to me the takeaways are right from the beginning, complementarity of skill sets. Which also meant over a period of time she's today running the financial services business. And so it's actually kind of evolved in that direction as well.

27:26 >> Right. Right. >> That keeps you potentially out of each other's, you know, whatever turf if you want to call it. Uh second, treat them professionally. Treat each other professionally. >> you treat a normal human being, right? Don't assume that, you know, you can take [clears throat] liberties. Don't take liberties. >> Very good. Going back to the spirit of intellectual honesty. >> Right. >> You had mentioned we we joked about vulnerabilities. I know you love to share some of them. Also in the context of what we are trying to do here. Um with with, you know, making the entrepreneurial journey more human and more down down to a level where people can relate to. What do you want to share?

28:04 Both your vulnerabilities vulnerabilities along the journey and then maybe closing with some advice. >> Also frankly I had a lot of vulnerabilities to to start off. Um I think the common one that I've seen as a thread as I look at most of the founders I had in abundance. Right, which is that I had come up with an idea which was like really small. I was very passionate about it, but it just had no market or the market was a futuristic, right? It had no profit pool. Uh and when I speak to wannabe founders uh they are very Everybody is passionate about something.

28:39 >> Yes. >> Right? Like at some stage in life I was really passionate about collecting stamps. >> Yeah. >> Uh we have some 70,000 stamps between me and Ruchi Like was also passionate about collecting stamps. But there's no market for stamps, right? I think that's my first and biggest thing that you should look out for. And I did that by failing. My first idea was shot down by one of my closest friends. Currently Z47 Xmatrix he did everything together with me which was Vikram. He laughed on me. And I think that's the only time he really laughed. Because he's a very serious intense kind of so I think the first thing that you have to really look out for >> [clears throat] >> is whatever you're thinking may be something that you're deeply passionate about but that may not have a market.

29:22 I [laughter] think the second thing is this thing about you know um this notion of saying that we will find people. Okay. I was very clear that I'm as I told you good in couple of things, right? I had to look for the other eight skills. I was lucky to find three at home but I still have to look for five. Right? Everybody goes through that. And then they kind of make that compromise into saying okay take it Milan. Yeah. So I could try to let them right. I failed enormously in that. I remember for a particular specific tech skill.

30:01 Okay. I would have spoken to like 100 till I found it right next to my left hand, right? So so the other vulnerability is that people tend to give up a lot before starting up. I had also compromise don't settle for it. >> Very good. I want to unpack this Ashish because it goes into your company building philosophy. So talk more about and it is potentially a takeaway for people though I don't want them to be as brutal. You would not hire people at their last compensation.

30:32 What is the logic for it? You would hire them only if they were taking significant pay cuts to join. >> That was where I wanted to I have given that away. >> [laughter] >> Okay so we'll talk about that and I think one thing that people should take away from this is how many times Ashish has spoken about failing or being wrong and I think that's a that's also a superpower. But I also believe that you learned something about how homogenized talent pool and firms have worked. You were telling me how McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, ITC talk about that and how that philosophy you applied in our business.

31:08 >> So one very simple thing that I know you know when [snorts] you start up something and you have some money which you have raised likely you can always pay and get talent from the market. I will tell you that doesn't work particularly at the start. It doesn't work later as well but it definitely doesn't work at the start because of couple reasons. If you pay for a certain skill right and it is not getting built out even if he contributes it's revenue minus cost the cost is high.

31:35 >> Mhm. >> And that cost will churn. Because if he's come to you for a hike he will leave for a hike yeah and that churn will really hurt you right so hence the only potential option is to hire young people. Mhm. >> Which is what the Goldman's and the McKinsey's and the ITC they have the management training program. >> Absolutely and it's purely because of commercial advantages the churn is low. >> Mhm. >> Right they cost very little and if they work out they can really contribute to revenue so that's one.

32:04 >> And they can have a upward path so therefore longer longer gestation or longer retention rather. >> correct correct agreed. The second thing is if you hire from the industry the other problem that you face and I have faced it myself and I have to really really you know be be seedingly angry about it which is they'll come and tell their stories. They will come and tell you if if the guy is from let's say a large telecom company like let's say Airtel he will tell you stories about Airtel. We are not Airtel.

32:33 >> Yeah. >> I'm our business right. >> By the way I I feel that at At Zefo 7 also, right? I tell people, learn before you teach. >> Right. >> But a lot of times people just come and start wanting to teach without the context. >> Without the context, right? And hence what happens is, if there are like 10 hours in a day, >> Yeah. >> or maybe 12 hours in a day, essentially they are talking about or thinking about their past for 4 hours in a day.

32:54 >> Yeah. >> That's loss of time. That's second. >> Right. >> And the third thing that I see is that if you teach them something, they are always trying to balance it with their prior learnings. >> Yeah. >> So, you have to hire fresh. There is no option. >> Instead of going through all the unlearning. >> Yes. Now, there are various models of hiring fresh. We adopted a model. I think that I have seen other models work as well.

33:13 >> Yeah. >> We We said that we'll go straight to campuses and build our young talent pool. I can proudly tell you that out of our top 30 guys, 20 are from that freshman network. >> Yeah. >> And they lead significant businesses today. >> Yeah. >> But that's because also I failed. Frankly, if you ask me, I had worked with people in ITC. When I used to go to, let's say you are a guy I wanted to get my job done, I'll go to you and you will tell me a lot about what you are doing.

33:36 >> Yeah. >> And my job isn't taken as priority, right? >> Yeah. >> And then I used to always go and think that let me rather go and tell a laborer who's like two levels down so he'll at least get the work done. >> Yeah. >> Right? And that's the kind of >> Super. Last question, it's about going public. I know you joke, you know, Al Al Gore used to say, I was the next president of the US. [laughter] I know you you joke that I'm always the next IPO. What's the thought process?

34:03 You know, you could potentially keep attracting private capital also. How should founders who have scaled, and you know, your company is rumored to be worth multiple billion dollars, how should they think about going public or not going public? How do you think about it? And what's the plan? >> At an early stage? >> At what stage? Should you at all? I mean, there are people who say we'll we'll stay private forever. >> Uh There are two types of companies which can actually afford to stay public for a really long time.

34:33 >> Afford to stay private or >> Private, sorry, my bad. Um one is if you have a lot of old money sitting with you, inheritance, or you jumped into a gold mine, those days are gone. >> Yeah. >> Right? This Koch Industries, for example, it's I think it's still private. >> K O C H >> K O C H >> Yeah, yeah. And one of the big influencers in in the US elections, also. >> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and and very controversial as well. So, you can be that.

34:59 Um I think the options around that are very limited today. The other option is that you are a PSU. And you have the taxpayer money funding you. You can't be either, right? The old money is gone. Uh the new money is getting replaced with old money. I mean, the new money is the one which is ruling. So, you have to go public. There's no option. >> Yeah. >> The question is at what stage? What do you need to have to come to that stage, and how do you fast forward your journey? Frankly, if you ask me, um at what stage was very clear to me.

35:30 Um what is needed to go public also was clear to me. I think the execution around that is where where we were poor at. Uh what we did not factor for, >> Mhm. >> okay? We are a 10-year-old business. Ideally, we should have gone public a couple of years back. I'm being very honest. I think we will probably in the next 1 year, for sure. >> [snorts] >> I think what we didn't factor for is that there will always be a curveball that will be thrown at you.

35:53 >> Yeah. >> And in spite of the curveball, you'll still have to keep going public because that's the only way uh you can actually uh make sure that you are creating value for your entire set of stakeholders on a continuous basis. >> In a permanent basis. So, basically, I mean, for the audience, stage of a business, high risk, each stage of a business corresponds to a certain capital structure that makes sense for it. Adam Smith's classic forces, like land, labor, capital, so on. Capital is a very important input.

36:30 >> Yes. >> And so, venture capital, when you're starting, maybe even pre-seed, you know, angel money, then venture capital, then private equity, and then yes, you have to go public, right? >> Yes, but you need to keep your eye on going public at the very start of actually having even thought about the venture. >> Yes. >> I will be very honest about it that when I started off, the number of years that were being quoted was anywhere between 12 to 15. People used to say that, "Hey, if you're a good business, you can probably get there in 12 years." From the time you thought about the business, not from the time you started. I think that time has shrunk.

37:03 >> It has shrunk a lot. And but I think this is a very important point. It's again come up a couple of times, so I'm going to summarize again. You said one of the pitfalls to watch out for is how deep is your market. How deep are the profit pools? But you're also saying one of the things to write in the upfront think about is what can this company go public? What is going to be the architecture? And I remember our debates, or rather discussions, where you were telling me that we didn't do a And I agree with that. We didn't do a good enough job of knowing public market backwards.

37:36 Rosy matters. You know, things like that. The narrative from And when we go and meet the public market investors, they actually speak a very different language than we do. >> Yeah. >> But it's good to know that way early. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Superb. Ashish, wonderful. Any advice, inputs, comments for the people who look up to you, are inspired by you, are thinking about entrepreneurship, or maybe are entrepreneurs, and maybe in that early struggling phase?

38:04 What inputs, any advice you have? >> I'll make it contextual. When I came in into the room right next door, you had the screen, which actually, you know, found us first. So, you had the screen, which used to have all the founder names and a tag beneath it. Um My tag in that screen was builder, right? Um I think [snorts] uh what I'm good at is building what I'm good at. Uh I outsource a lot. Um and I don't try to build in everything. So, that's what I will advise. Be yourself. Everybody has a superpower. Build keep building in that superpower. Everything else let the others do.

38:43 >> Superb. Privileged to be your partner in this new journey. May you not be the next up coming IPO and be the real IPO now. Uh congratulations on all the progress and good luck on the journey ahead. >> Thank you for the kind words. I must say that uh Avnish took um 17 years of my knowing him 17 years of my knowing him to actually succinctly put uh it it in this way. So, thank you. >> [clears throat] >> Thank you for the kind words.

39:08 >> Superb. Thank you, Ashish. You're watching G4S 7 Moments the podcast by India's oldest venture capital firm G4S 7. If you like this episode, consider hitting the subscribe button and the bell icon so you never miss an update from G4S 7 Moments.