Revisit - Control or Not Control Our Kids?

0:02 hello and welcome to another episode of parenting and you with me Dr shaali you know control is a big thing with us parents how much control is too much control and how little control is too little control I cannot tell you how many times parents come to me trying to balance the art of having some presence in their children's lives but not overdoing it and not underdoing it well there is no perfect answer is there but

0:34 I can tell you there is one secret ingredient that determines how we control our children or not and I will be talking about that in this episode coming up next a mother whose six-year-old has been struggling with anxiety for the past 3 years joining me now is Colette a mother who is struggling with her six-year-old's anxiety and lective mutism hi Colette tell us what's going on hi so um since my daughter was about

1:07 3 years old we noticed when she first started preschool that she wasn't talking to any of her peers or the teachers in class and this went on for about two years so for two years she didn't say anything she could talk at home she was very Lively and expressive and like a real fun character but as soon as she would get to school or in groups of friends and like Social Circles then she would literally freeze

1:33 and shut down and not say a word even friends that she'd known for years and years like you know since birth she wouldn't talk to because of the anxiety so we did work with a therapist who specialized in selective mutism and now she started kindergarten this year and she is talking which is huge for us and she's made friends and she responds when the teacher asks her questions which things two years ago we thought we would

1:59 never be where we are but right now the issue that we're having with the anxiety is she's not using the bathroom without me so she won't go at school she will hold it from when we drop her off at 7:30 all the way through like till the end of the school day at 2:30 and that's for anything number one or number two she won't even go into the restroom it causes her too much anxiety she'll hold

2:23 it and wait until she comes home and yeah I just feel like that's a long time for a little girl and being uncomfortable uh during those hours it must be stressful for her yes you know I just I want to help her so that she can overcome this like she did with the speaking okay so what's wonderful is that you've been able to really witness something that was such a big deal a few years ago and now your child has slowly

2:53 but surely grown out of it so I want you to keep that Jewel that you just got from your child because many of us parents lose perspective right when something is is catastrophic in front of us we feel as if it is the end of the world we feel as if this hard moment is going to last forever so you just went through a really challenging phase with your daughter where every parent would have freaked out but now your daughter

3:21 grew out of it you know selective mutism is very common in early childhood especially when children feel you know almost Frozen in shock and it typically occurs during unfamiliar unknown situations so it's not unusual that children like your daughter experience great anxiety in new situations like preschool or their first transition in any new you know environment so what she went through was a normal desire to protect herself you know maybe somebody

3:54 in the school humiliated her or bullied her or said something to her and she completely froze you know the truth is in our modern Western World we're sending our children off to new situations way too early right we're sending them in pre pre pre nursery and kindergarten when they're very very young and many children are not ready to regulate themselves in these new environments in the olden days right

4:25 when we lived in tribes there was always a familiar soothing caregiver around we had our mothers around all the time so this is a new phenomenon and many of our children cannot cope and sometimes their anxiety makes them freeze and then some of them display selective mutism so what I'm saying is that you've experienced that ah she's grown out of it she's now less anxious well another typical way that our children show their anxiety is

4:55 by withholding their poop right this is one of their things and the reason they withhold their poop again is because they're seeking control and to protect themselves so let me ask you when she used to be selectively mute and when she withholds her poop what is Mommy's level of anxiety around these issues internally like what all are you experiencing internally yeah I mean it's a great question and as a follower of

5:25 your work I have been questioning myself you know why is this a trigger for me especially with the speaking it felt like she didn't respond to people it felt like it was very dismissive of the people and as a people Thea myself I'm like come on you got to answer that question so I realized that was my trigger but then accepting that and accepting she doesn't need to respond to them she doesn't know them maybe she

5:49 doesn't like them and letting her be in her discernment over who she was ready to open up to and who she was ready to respond to I stop putting the pressure on that 100% and except to this is this is my daughter you know would be at a party if she doesn't want to participate like the other kids and she would rather observe she's allowed to observe not all the children want to participate so that was definitely a realization on my end

6:19 that she doesn't need to be like me oh my goodness so let's just stop right there because I want every listener to really absorb your words of wisdom number one you looked within your yourself now that itself is like the hardest thing for parents to do so Bravo you looked within yourself and asked why is this triggering me so much I want every human listening to this to remind themselves that this is where we begin the work by asking ourselves why am I

6:48 being triggered in this way instead of blaming the trigger we look within the next thing you did is you began to identify all the ways you wanted her to be like you and because you are such a people pleaser and because you like to be socially appropriate and follow the Norms when you saw your daughter act in a way that wasn't quote unquote pleasing it triggered your good girl image of who she should be and of who you are and

7:18 then the third thing is you released her into her own unfolding you allowed her to be her own human and in doing that you gave her such an amazing gift so I just want every listener out there to know that you too can do this process you too can release your children to become their most empowered selves okay now tell me about your triggers around her withholding her poop oh I have questioned this and I'm not sure I've

7:48 got the exact answer I do feel like I worry for her comfort and that's triggering me that she would be stressed at school because she needs to go and she can't relieve herself and this is also PE so you know myself I use the bathroom frequently throughout the day and I think maybe that's a trigger that if I had to hold it from 7:30 till 2:30 I would be bursting and I would be uncomfortable I would be very very

8:16 stressed so maybe that's where it's triggering me that she would be feeling that in a classroom but then be Frozen and not advocate for herself and not feel like she could go and relax and relieve her soul yes so now what I'm about to say may be challenging for you and perhaps for listeners out there when our children withhold their poop and their pee especially when they're young like your daughter it's typically their way of saying I don't have much control

8:47 over my life I cannot control what's happening outside of me I'm going to control my elimination and my food so typically it's what they eat and what they eliminate in your daughter's case it's just the elimination right she's not controlling her food correct yeah yeah that's correct so she's chosen to control the few things that children can control which is their own bodily functions so now let's go a little deeper and here's where it could be a

9:14 little bit icky for you what about your control are you somebody who is a perfectionist who does control herself a lot who demands that you know she live at her best levels and in a perfectionistic way do you think you have those issues inside your psychology I imagine I do yeah I feel like in some ways I'm totally not a perfectionist but I think in a way I hold myself to very high standards for

9:44 myself could be perfectionism if you could go back to your childhood and think of the first you know really painful memory and go to that moment we could discover more about how you are affecting your daughter can you think of the first painful moment that comes to mind I can and the reason I'm kind of smiling is I can see the connection it's around vomiting I had a real issue that what I had done was a very terrible

10:13 thing when I first threw up at the age of three wow and that definitely stayed with me through my life where I might have even had Tendencies of a metap phobia which is the phobia of vomiting so it's all connected with elimination I guess yeah is isn't that funny you went straight back to a real body trauma now you vomited and listen many children who vomit or poop or have diarrhea and I know this sounds kind of like why are we

10:43 talking about this because this is real stuff and children go through this stuff when they go through that it scares them because they've never perhaps vomited before so do you remember how your mother reacted to you or how the others around you reacted when you vomited because why would you so scared yeah so my parents were out and we had a babysitter and I have three older sisters and they were so grossed out by what had happened I think the babysitter

11:10 was like scrambling to try and help it not to turn into a mess and then my parents had to be called and told that I was unwell and they needed to come home from their night out so I felt a lot of guilt and shame that they had to leave the fun that they were having because of something that I had done yeah so just there in a core memory you registered that you were quote unquote

11:37 bad you were out of control you were so gross I mean imagine how a three-year-old feels when they vomit and now they're being told that they are gross people or that's gross you begin to feel that oh if all this stuff that came out of me is gross I must be gross and you felt some sort of shame how do you think that shame or feeling of you know trying to be perfect lasted through your life did you see it come up in

12:06 other places in your life as well I imagine yeah I mean now that's definitely something I'm going to be thinking about yeah like for example you know let me help you when as young children we're told that we're gross or we're not amazing enough and then we seek to be better and better it typically shows up in how we appear in public right how we show up in our hair in our clothes in how we keep the house

12:34 in your example with uh your child it was how your child greets other people because you see her as an extension of yourself so do you see how that control can come out in the way you show up in the world yeah 100% I think even though maybe on the surface I feel you know like oh I'm just you know winging it and throwing it all together I think at the core it's coming from a place of control

13:02 and perfectionism yeah and I wonder if somehow you're not fully in touch with that but your daughter is picking up on that she is feeling the need to be perfect so let me explain as a young three-year-old it's funny right when did she start preschool at three yeah it's so interesting that your first memory is three yes oh my God and let me tell you patterns repeat themselves very exact in

13:33 Generations they kind of show up at the same age so now your daughter's 3 years old she goes to school it's quite likely somebody said something to her that hurt her feelings and made her feel gross or icky or not good enough and she too kind of froze like you did when you vomited and somebody made fun of you she too kind of froze and then just decided not to show her herself in a vulnerable way

14:00 again because she didn't feel comfortable however that is also something she probably feels at home the need to be in control the need to be kind of a perfect little girl and she's feeling that pressure and that's the pressure that is leading her to not want to poop freely or not want to quote unquote have an accident right so it's all related to control issues so the more we as parents become aware of our own control issues our own sense of

14:33 perfectionism we can then see oh this is how my daughter's picking up on it this is how my son is mirroring me but that requires you as the parent to really get in touch with your own issues around perfectionism I can tell you that your daughter is sensing some pressure to be perfect she's trying to control and that's because she's feeling a loss of control in her life now you also have a younger child how old is your younger

15:00 daughter or son son yeah he's two and a half this loss of control could be related to the fact that Mommy is busy with the new child and Mommy doesn't have enough time or mommy is stressed out so these are the issues which kind of feed into our children's anxiety issues and we need to become aware of it what I would recommend as a concrete strategy and a practice for your child is to you know poop in front of her like

15:27 take her to the bathroom with you when you're pooping show her how much fun you have pooping and you put on the music and you you know chilling out and you're then going for a bath and you're loving your body and you're splish splashing and making a mess what I want her to see is that it's okay to love your body it's okay to be messy you know the the more you make mistakes around your daughter

15:53 and show her that you're totally relaxed about it all of this will ease her into allowing herself to poop easier now I know a listener out there may be wondering how does making a mess relate to pooping because it's a control issue we're talking about and when we are very controlled and don't like to make a mess our children translate that to the pressure to be perfect and they then control whatever little they can control in an effort to be perfect so she's

16:25 trying not to make a mess you see she's trying not to make mistakes so she muted herself and now she's muting her natural body functions so the more Mommy is relaxed making mistakes being silly pooping with her bathing with her laughing with her all of that will ease her anxieties I wanted to ask you a question about the perfectionism because I feel that I'm not demanding that of her you know so like she can do her

16:53 homework and get things wrong or it can look messy or I want her to do it the way she's going to do it want her to dress the way she wants to dress even though sometimes it's questionable her hair the way she wants to do it you know and and really give her that freedom to express herself in the way that is natural to her without any expectation of her hair having to be perfect or her

17:15 outfit having to be just so or her homework having to be correct and so I don't feel it's something I'm necessarily projecting onto her but is it something that she's witnessing through the way I conduct myself all right perfect literally perfect literally perfect so do you think you're hard on yourself uhhuh how do you think you're hard on yourself tell me so growing up as the youngest of four girls you know I

17:45 never felt I was as good as them because they were all older there was a 10year age difference and you know they were always in a different stage of life that I would look up to and feel like I wasn't there yet so I wasn't as good as them and I was annoying being the youngest I think now we're all very close good friends but growing up maybe I wasn't as accepted because of my age and you know the immaturity that came

18:12 with that so I always feel like now oh I don't want to annoy anyone I don't want to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing so we'll try to you know behave what I feel would be appropriate to be accepted and belong and I think that's where I'm hard on myself because it's like I'm always expecting the worst of myself or that others would think the worst of me does that Mak sense yeah well you just hit it right now you just

18:41 hit your core pain and here's the thing our children will pick up on our pain no matter how we are with them through our words and the way we are with ourselves will show up in our parenting your relationship to yourself is going to show up in your relationship to your child even though you're saying the right words you're hard on yourself and your daughter is hard on herself but here's the invitation to

19:12 break the pattern to enjoy to laugh to be silly to allow yourself to not fit in and to you know love yourself through it all and to accept all your weaknesses and limitations when Mommy is comfortable with herself you will see that your daughter will be more comfortable with herself as well wow I did not think we were going to go this deep today well that's what we do here but yeah that's huge yes yes well thank

19:42 you for being vulnerable I know you've taken a away an aha moment that now you can reflect on and begin to be very aware of and each time that desire to be perfect or that in a Critic shows up you're going to love yourself and accept yourself thank you again for joining us wow thank you so much coming up next a mother who's struggling with her 15 year-old daughter who she says doesn't want to live in the

20:11 home joining me now is K Kar is struggling with her 15-year-old daughter who she says stays away from the house at least four or five nights a week and that's really bothering Ki and she doesn't know what to do here's Ki welcome tell us what's really going on hi yes thank you she's staying at friends she said she's just wanted to have fun as a teen and and be various friends and now it's a boyfriend and

20:38 it's gotten to a stage where it feels like it's been quite a while now and I feel like I never see her and I feel sad we get along really great she's a fantastic kid I just I'm sort of in the dark about what might be going on with her how long has she been doing this staying away it feels like it's nearly like 2 years her coming and going right it's almost as if she's flown the coupe

21:02 earlier than most kids do don't you think it feels like that it feels like yeah she's acting kind of like she's already an adult and she can just come and go and she's you know already Beyond 18 and yeah I know so many of our teenagers like to believe that they're older than they are and they are seeking Independence and yet we know as adults that they're not yet ready for such a level of Independence so let me ask you

21:31 how do you tell her that hey you know what this is your house I need you home and it's best for you that you sleep in the house and I see you and then when you're older you can do all of this do you feel comfortable laying that boundary with her yeah I think I try we had those conversations and she's in agreement and we are in contact the whole time but I think it just somehow

21:58 she's just so busy that somehow it doesn't come around to being more time at home and she's quite busy do you feel that confronting her with real clear boundaries is something that creates anxiety in you yeah definitely I think that's been a big issue with my parenting yeah are you a single parent uhhuh so talk more about what about creating boundaries makes you anxious I've never wanted to have many rules or boundaries I think I've just

22:29 got the very basic boundary of when it comes to I think harmy so type thing I've always sort of wanted you know kids to be quite free and and not feel like they've been controlled or anything but I think it's kind of swung the other way somehow and it's it's gone pearshaped somehow and yeah I'm not really sure how it led to this yeah I really appreciate your being so honest because yeah you know many times when parents come to me

22:58 they are actually the opposite of you right they're very controlling very strict and they don't like when they're not always around their children and I have to remind them that that's their anxiety but here's the thing when we swing the other way like you have and we have such few boundaries so much so that our 15-year-old our 14 13 like this has been going on for 2 years when they don't even come home and they're actually mostly living outside the house

23:27 that's the other side of control you're still talking about anxiety it just looks very different for you it's still anxiety at the bottom of it all the parent who is super controlling that's actually an anxious parent but a parent like you who's very permissive it looks like you're not anxious but so much permissiveness on the other end of the spectrum is also your anxiety so let's go there I understand you wanted to raise free children and you wanted to

23:59 give children a lot of room to breathe and space to grow that's a beautiful sentiment but your child is actually not even staying at home and she's really being raised by her peers she's really being raised by other children or other adults so what is it about you confronting that reality that makes you so anxious can you share that with us I'm not quite sure I'm in touch with that maybe it's not knowing what to do

24:31 if it's refused or if it's if it's not acknowledged could be fear of conflict I'm not really sure I think it is I think it is fear of conflict because somehow I think you have created a situation for yourself where you're you know she started this at 13 she's now 15 where you're communicating to her that it's okay if you're not around it's okay if we not physically connected and texting her during the day that's not

25:03 the same as your presence I think at the bottom of it all is that you're afraid to be present in her life and in a way it's kind of convenient for you to not have to deal with her every single day and I know that's harsh so let's just explore that with some courage uh what about that feels right or wrong tell me I think to an extent it is like that in some ways I wouldn't say

25:32 completely because I think she's not such a difficult kid that I can't had a little at all we're very loving toward each other still and I don't know right but but it's almost like you've hung your hat so early in the game like you've decided that H you know what she may not need me and I think it speaks to your own insecurity about how important you really are in her life I think you're discounting your own

25:59 importance in her life and relevance and she needs you yeah and I think she recently did say that exactly that and even though I thought I was there and that's when she was present at the home she said she needed me then and I didn't realize that I I missed that I think on some level something about raising your daughter scares you I think you're running away you're avoiding something and I think it comes from your own

26:27 insecurity something is making you very scared to take charge to be your daughter's parent you've kind of just retired yourself early early in the game oh um okay how do I turn that around because I don't want that well you don't want that right you want to be present for your daughter you want to be there yeah well then how are you communicating that to her maybe I'm not communicating I I thought I was communicating it I became maybe such at

26:57 a loss said okay I don't ask her every day to be home but maybe I should be asking her to be home every day it's okay it's your confused about your role in her life you're confused about your parenting and there's something you're avoiding let me ask you did you have a close relationship with your parents course but maybe a little bit difficult did you feel the warmth of your mother and her presence in your life definitely

27:22 the presence and being cared for yeah I I I did did you feel connected to her growing up or your father connected to them maybe not as much connection as I would have hoped there's a disconnection going on and there's some avoiding going on you are avoiding being the parent she needs you to be you're kind of scared to be that you're running away from her she's not actually running away from the home you've kind of run away from your

27:51 role and she's she's she's like okay I'm a kid I have more fun somewhere else so I'll just go where I have fun but she's missing a very key ingredient which is a parent who asserts her presence and is connected and is there and she's being raised by other children and I don't think you want that no but what does that look like does the parent who's not that is that texting her every day to require her to be home well it requires

28:19 a parent to say hey you're a kid you're not ready to go out there and sleep in other people's homes four or five nights a week this is your home I need you to be here and I need to check in on you and this is where you need to be but you've kind of been conflict avoidant I think and Boundary avoidant I think it scares you yeah I think you're anxious around creating that you know importance

28:47 of who you are in her life I think it comes from your insecurity like okay she's okay I don't think I have anything to offer and you're not realizing that your child needs the mother to be there and even if it's just to tuck her in at night and give her a kiss and tell her she's beautiful and encourage her you're missing a lot of precious time where you can be such an amazing presence for her

29:14 but you don't believe that you are an amazing presence see that's where you're coming from that I'm not even that important so who cares if she doesn't get me yeah because I feel like the times I've tried to talk to about it have said these things her response has been but I don't want a parent and so maybe I've taken that to be that I've been too much for her in some ways and so I have to

29:38 turn back but right but just because a child says I don't want a parent almost every child will say that what they're saying is hey I think I'm amazing and I can do things on my own but that doesn't mean we check out I feel like when she said I don't want a parent you took that L literally and you just ejected we're like okay I want her to like me I think it's coming from an anxiety around

30:05 wanting to be liked and be your child's friend rather than stepping into the role of mother and caretaker and really being the leader right now I think it scares you she scares you in some way and you're afraid that if she doesn't like you or if she doesn't think of you as a cool person then that's going to feel really hard for you but in that you're taking care of yourself you're not really stepping into the role of

30:32 mother right now so as I say that what is going on in your body what are you thinking the practicalities of trying to keep her High when she just wants to she'll just sneak out the door and before I realize she's going out quite late and you know you haven't created any accountability there's no accountability to you I mean I think you've been so afraid of being contr trolling that you've swung all the way to the other side and you're now so

31:03 permissive it's like there's no parent in the house oh yeah so making her accountable how do I do that yeah so I just want you to know that children need safety and letting her run the streets and sleep at different people's houses at this young age is not healthy for her and she's missing out on so many moments with her sister with you right you said to our producers you have a younger daughter yeah the feeling of a home the

31:36 feeling of coming back to a little nest of safety and she's grown up too fast too soon and it is going to have a consequence yeah okay so now how do we do this how do we turn back the clock and make some changes well the first thing is you need to perhaps go with her to a therapist or a coach because this is something that you need to learn to do you don't know how to create

32:03 boundaries with her you've literally told her yeah it's free for all do what you like sleep wherever you like and she's in charge but a 13 or a 15y old cannot be in charge of so much Freedom it's not healthy for them they need some containment I always say that the two wings of the dove of parenting are authenticity they need an authentic Pres pres but they also need containment they need connection but they also need

32:33 containment so right now you don't have really either of them so how do we start I would start by telling her that you are concerned that you would like her to be home more often you have to start small maybe three nights a week she's home and that you want to do things with her you want to spend time with her and you think that maybe a therapist will help to rebuild that connection with her yeah I've lined I've lined that up which

33:00 is good and she's she's agreed oh gosh not yet not yet yeah so what I want you to know is that you have swung the other side from control to Absolute loss of control you have given up all your you know parental governance you've given up anything over her the oversight the potential for connection and I think it's a wakeup call to you that you need to really step into the role of parent and not be so anxious

33:34 it's coming from your anxiety so getting a therapist to help you or a coach to help you will be the first place to start but also holding your daughter accountable to to coming home yeah and thank you yeah I think it's time to now step into that role a little bit more assertively yeah definitely thank you yeah we we can't avoid being a parent we can't Outsource being a parent so early our children need us and they need us to

34:03 need us it's okay for you to step into that and ask her to show up more so that you two can be connected and there very few years left before she's going to go after to college so this is the time that her mother steps in and shows her that she's very invested in being her mother yeah exactly okay my dear thank you so much for sharing what a difficult situation but I'm confident that you're going to turn the tide thank you very

34:31 much thank you for being so vulnerable thank you I'm I'm I'm I'm very appreciative wow just so interesting hearing from both these parents today so at different ends of the spectrum of control one parent so invested in how her child acts and wants to be the perfect mother trying to micromanage almost everything her daughter does and then we have another parent who so doesn't want to be controlling that they swing to the other side and they almost

35:04 become absent like they're not even there I see this so often in my practice and in fact I wrote about this in my book The Parenting map I talk about the different parenting Styles the Styles we adopt out of our anxiety sometimes we're so anxious like the typical controlling parent that we really ride our children or we ride ourselves trying to be the perfect parent and I call those parents the fighter parents or the fixer parents

35:36 and then somewhere in the middle of the spectrum I have the fainer parents where they're feigning being perfect or they're faking a perfect family and then on the other side of the spectrum we have the freezer parents or the flea of parents and that second parent talked about how she has kind of dissociated from her child and the parenting role so no matter where you are on the Spectrum it's really important for us as parents

36:07 to go within ourselves and ask what is my anxiety causing me to do if we're not aware of how our anxiety is causing us to be either super controlling or super not controlling we won't get to the Crux of the matter and our children will suffer in order to best connect with our children we as parents need to First tune in tap in look within and get in touch with our underlying anxiety

36:38 because that's what's going to show up the most in our parenting thank you for listening I hope you enjoyed this episode don't forget to subscribe share it with those you love and I will see you on the next episode of parenting and you with me Dr shaali parenting and you with Dr shaali is for educational and informational purposes only it is not intended as a substitute for professional medical psychological

37:09 psychotherapeutic coaching health care or other qualified professional advice diagnosis or treatment