The Best Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear

0:00 What advice do you give to young graduates who are experiencing anxiety that AI is taking away entry-level jobs? >> I'd have a couple of pieces of advice. One, in any role in any field, be the most AI-enabled version of yourself you can possibly be. There's tons of anthropologists that have written about how we evolve with our tools, and you can just imagine a farming competition between a guy with a tractor and some drones, and the other guy's got a plow and a donkey. Who's going to win? And you need to think about it that way. If there are 40 people in your org all doing the same thing, and you understand how AI affects that role more than the rest of them, you're not getting laid off. It's just not going to happen. And you'll also start to understand what parts of your job are a threat or not, and maybe you can elevate yourself to where you're a designer and not the worker bee because you now have this power. All right, we're going to do 45 minutes with just two of us, and then I'm we're going to we're going to do your questions.

0:52 Um the book's great. Thank you. I mean, you know how I knew it was great is that so my just graduated from Marine Academy son, uh who's taking a gap year and is in London working, uh asks me all the time the questions you answer. Uh that is it that the anxiety in the air around him about what he's going to do with his life and what like what how do you even think about it? Um I think you hit a nerve. I think you I think you're going to find Very kind.

1:21 this thing is going to run and run and run. But we're not going to get the book right away. I'm going to do this in stages. >> Okay. >> And we're going to start we're going to we've known each other. When did we meet? I can't even remember how we met, but we met a long time ago. Was it through Moneyball? Maybe Money, I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. But but it was uh >> it was Money. It was yeah, so a long time ago.

1:40 >> Yeah. And my first impression of you was you were tall. And I think it probably shapes everything that happens to you. I think you can't go through the world 6'9" without having a kind of 6'9" like life. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> And For better or for bad. And well, you know, there is this thing with really tall people that you spend your life knowing people are watching you, and I think it makes you better behaved. Mhm.

2:06 I think you you're not going to get away with anything. You really [laughter] aren't. You're not going to sneak one by anybody. And so you have to have a like a better character when you get to be your size. >> All right. Um but it's so I want to start with your life a little bit because your life is what informs this book. I want to I want you to walk us through your life up to the moment you get on stage at the University of Texas in 2018 and give this speech that leads to this book.

2:31 >> Yeah. Tell me tell me where you how you grew up. Um I grew up I grew up in Dickinson, Texas, which is in between Houston and Galveston in Galveston County. Um my father, and I think this is relevant to the to the overall story for a reason I can share. My father grew up in rural North Carolina, fell in love with gas airplanes as a kid. Like his father built him a shed behind the house, and he's out there till 12 >> Was he a real country boy?

2:57 No. >> No, country side rural North Carolina. Rural North Carolina when you No, I know I know, but but he's playing with these those old Cox model airplane, and he goes to NC State and gets an aeronautical engineering degree, and he's working at Langley Air Force Base in a wind tunnel, and someone comes by and asks him and 49 other people working there, "Would you want to move to Houston and help start NASA?" Oh. And he said yes. Of course.

3:24 Well, I don't Is it of course? Like like you you know, you grow up Some people grow up in a geographic area, Yeah. and that's pretty that's that can be daunting to jump that far. But the reason I think that story is relevant is when it came time for me to think about jumping across the country, it it seemed natural like like cuz I'd seen this example >> So you eliminated that fear. Fear of having to go somewhere else. Or or even knowing what it led to for him. I mean, to to grow up on a farm playing with model airplanes, you know, he's born in '36, so you know, 18 is What is that?

4:01 50 54. By '69, they put a man on the moon. Like that's quite a run. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> And he was in the middle of it. Yeah, our whole half the fathers on the street I grew up on worked at NASA, so it was it was just around us. It didn't seem strange. Did you want to go into that line of work? >> No. No, and but by the time I was graduating high school in '84, you know, it had moved on to the space shuttle, and even that was was, you know, not I wasn't drawn to that. But my sister, this could take forever for me to tell you this >> I can I'll cut you off.

4:35 I have [laughter] some I have some specific things I want to do with you. >> My sister was a double E at Rice, and and and could have gone to a bigger company and went to Compaq Computer Corporation in Houston, which was a super hot startup at the time. John Dorr was on the board. Um it was being disruptive of IBM, and so she was an early employee there, which is another data point, you know, that I have in my life.

5:01 Take And I followed her there. When How did you figure out what you wanted to be? >> So so when I was like a sophomore in high school, I got a hold of a Commodore Vic-20, which was this precursor to the PC that you plugged into a TV, Right. and I would buy these magazines that had code written in them, and I before even knew how the code worked, I'd type them in and see it work. And and of course I'd make typos, and it wouldn't work, and then I'd have to figure I learned to code that way through that, and and got fascinated with that you could write a program that could do something. And by the way, like half the people my age in Silicon Valley have that same story.

5:41 >> Yeah, but if I had found you if I had found if I had met you when you were in a junior or senior in high school and asked you what you were going to do when you >> Computer science, for sure. That's what you're going Yeah, and I went to college, and that's what I got to do. >> to program computers. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not what you ended up doing. No, no, no, but I worked at Compaq for two little over two years.

5:58 >> So why do you leave that job? A couple of things happened. One, um I had this I developed this mental exercise that I didn't realize I was doing but at the time, but I said to myself, a a couple years in, we started a third project, looked like the second project, looked like the first project, and I was starting to pay attention to some broader things, and it looked a little redundant, and I said to myself, "Do I see myself here 30 years from now?" And there were people in the building that had been engineers for 30 years, so I could you know, I could I could get a perspective on it by just thinking, "Do I want to be them?" Right. And the answer was no. Very quickly in my brain, the answer is also um I had read Peter Lynch's One Up on Wall Street, and I was starting to get fascinated with stocks like uh when I got home at night. I got this Value Line notebook they used to have, single pages. It was like 400 pages. You get updates in the mail. Yeah. Um yeah, so I started thinking about stocks a lot out out of just interest. So that moment because I had a moment like this when I was working on Wall Street.

7:02 >> And I wrote >> [laughter] >> And I wrote a book about it. But it No, but that moment when you look at the people who are in whatever you just started out in, and you can't you don't really want to be that in 30 years. That's one one thing, but the other thing you said is that it sounded like you were you were it was repetitive. >> It was. So you weren't learning. Right. So you're and learning is a big deal with you.

7:22 >> Yes. You always love to learn. You always have. Actually, I it really when I when I decided to leave Compaq, I went to business school at the University of Texas, and um for some reason I fell in love with reading there. I did read that Peter Lynch book, but but prior to like high school and undergrad, I didn't read much. But in business school, like a bit flip, Uh-huh. and I just started reading everything. Huh. Yeah, including This is the male brain waking up at age 25.

7:49 >> [laughter] >> Right? No, that's what happens. I think that is what happens. Our brains are a little slow to come along. >> [laughter] >> Mine was. I don't know I had a I had a similar sort of experience. Yeah. So um so you we skipped over one thing cuz I I I think the fact that you're 6'9" and played basketball at the University of Florida, even though you didn't play a lot, >> Right. Right. You were on the you're on a D1 >> practice basketball, but yes. But you played with practice basketball three guys who played in the NBA.

8:16 >> Correct. You were it was a pretty serious And I and I I peop- like people have asked me how that like all the only thing I could possibly say uh how that might have impacted my career path is one, um I saw people get to very high places that I knew. So like there's a certain like, "Oh, that's doable." You mean the NBA. Yeah. But I knew it for me it wasn't that lane, so if I wanted to do it, I'd have to find another lane.

8:45 Right. But but still like it's interesting to see like that kind of level of success up close and know about it. >> But I would say I mean, we're we're going to get to your talk cuz the talk is the is the catalyst for this book, but when you talk on a stage, you don't remind me of any VC I know. You remind me a lot of basketball coaches I know. Is that right? >> Oh, yeah, you're a coach. You're so you were so the way the way you talk the way you're talking [laughter] to them, you sound like you're talking to a team at halftime that you're slightly irritated with.

9:20 >> [laughter] >> And And and and you're but you're whole you're you're not going to you're not going to go crazy on them, but you're you're you're slightly irritated with them, and you're telling them how life works. And um and so I you clearly picked up and you a lot of One of the founders I work with is in the audience. Yeah, but a lot of you a lot of you I mean, you you brought up I can't remember whether you brought it up in the talk or the book, but there was a it was in the talk. Uh we you were quite moved by Bobby Knight's uh speech uh introducing Mike Krzyzewski into the Hall of Fame. I went watch that.

9:58 And and he reminded me of you. >> [laughter] >> He did. So, you have this you Okay. Am I wrong that your athletic You know, let me just ask the question I'm going to ask. Your athletic career shaped you too. It wasn't just your dad was at NASA and you played with computers. You You You clearly were You cared a lot about sports. You don't go suffer at the end of the bench on the University of Florida unless you care about this. So, where Tell me about that part of your your development.

10:28 I don't I mean, like I said, the the part that I think I might have taken away from it is is just simply knowing that there like how far away from the the talent level of the people that went to the NBA from the rest of us. Like even in practice every day, you could just tell. Right. And knowing that if you were going to do something at that level, it would require you to have that same kind of advantage in whatever it is you go do. Like it was a real awakening of differential of of potential. Nothing about hard work or teamwork or any of that stuff that comes >> I think all that stuff leaks in like like, you know, as you go through the whole process. And [snorts] and grinding and and and coaches yelling at you and like not not being into the world, you know.

11:21 >> The coaches Did your coaches mean a lot to you? No, not really. >> [laughter] >> Okay. All right, that's interesting. That's all right. You know, I >> [laughter] >> I I I would like to see you squirm a little bit. >> your book book coach. I did not have that I didn't have that experience. Yeah. Yeah, I got lucky. Yeah, I mean, not everybody has that experience. >> Yes. Um All right, so like you you leave Compaq, you go to business school and and get us from there to Silicon Valley. Well, I went through Wall Street. So, I I thought about venture capital a little bit when I was at business school. I was curious about it.

11:57 I couldn't find a way in. I I had a few informational interviews. They said, "Go work for 20 years and call me back." >> [laughter] >> Thought it was not really a executable plan. And then I I started reading business magazines. I really loved my corporate strategy class and a lot of a lot of MBA students sit in the in the big open area and pretend to be executives and read Fortune and Forbes and Wall Street Journal. And I was of course reading the tech articles cuz that's what I was excited about. And there was this team of sell-side analysts at Goldman Sachs, Dan Benton, John Levinton, Rick Sherlund. And they [snorts] were considered the axe. And the reporters when they wanted to write about these industries would always ask them. So, I'm reading this stuff and they're like keep coming up. Like these are the people that that analyze these important tech industries. So, I did what you read about in books. I cold called them and said, "Can I come see you?" And and Dan and Rick said, "Yes." I'm like a first-year student at University of Texas, pretty far away from New York.

13:07 Um and then because I knew they were so well-known, I called the other research directors and said, "I'm going to be in New York meeting with Rick Sherlund and Dan Benton. >> [laughter] >> Can I get 15 minutes of your time?" And I ended up with like seven meetings with research directors and one of them gave me a shot, Al Jackson, who was at at the book party on Monday night, which was great to see him.

13:31 And by the way, he cared a lot about the athletics piece. I I All the Wall Street people did. >> Yeah, I was asking him why he took a chance on this kid from Texas because the the incoming group of people from MBA programs that year, there were 40 of us, and I was the only one that wasn't Columbia, Wharton, you know, the ones you'd expect. Yeah, but the one of the things signal if you've been through a D1 athletic program is you've learned how to suffer. Yeah, and work and and have work ethic. Yeah, that's right.

13:58 Then they've been you're going to have to suffer in those jobs. What So, your interest in Wall Street comes from reading Peter Lynch. This is what gets you A little bit and and your book, which I know you hate. I don't hate So, this is is I I got to it. I thought it's funny. It was He said that he wrote >> What year did it come out? 89. >> Yeah, so I went to work on Wall Street in '91. Okay. Yeah. Uh and you I didn't I didn't >> share with the audience.

14:23 Michael's book, Liar's Poker, um he thought he was writing a book to tell people don't ever come to this horrible place. >> [laughter] >> That's your take on my book. I don't know that's my take on you describing >> exactly. I didn't [laughter] I didn't I didn't have that kind of view. My view is a little There was a little more nuance than that. It was that I was watching I was watching people who had not the benefit of this advice at Princeton, where I went, anxious about their careers.

14:52 Uh and just and they many of them had done all the right things to get to Princeton. And they were What is the next right thing to do? Like they wanted to be They wanted a treadmill. And Wall Street had I watched Wall Street become this treadmill. And I watched people who really had talents and interests that should have taken them in a different direction feel they couldn't afford to do it cuz you had to do this cuz it was too scary.

15:17 Turn down Goldman Sachs would have been like turning down Princeton. Yeah. And that bothered me. Really bothered me. And so, what I what I was hoping it would do was sort of demystify it. Yeah. So, that the kid who was going to be an oceanographer would just say, "Okay, I know what it is. Silly. I'm going to be an oceanographer." It is true that it did not have that Not It had that effect with some kids.

15:39 But with other kids, it was more, "Oh my god." The The dog whistle coming out of Liar's Poker was Michael Lewis doesn't know anything. He persuades us he doesn't know anything. And within 18 months, they're throwing hundreds of thousands of dollars a year [laughter] at him to give financial advice. "I don't know anything," says the reader. "Where can I go to get paid hundreds hundreds of thousands of dollars?" You sort of attracted all these people into the business. Yeah. I don't want to digress on me too much, but I just just flash forward.

16:06 >> I would So, so my main draw was the thing I'd mentioned, the tech analysts in this thing. But there your book did create this note notion of sensationalism that it would be exciting. Yes, exciting. Well, was it? Oh, yeah. I actually I had a I had a blast. I It was a rocket ship. I got very fortunate. I had this amazing call on Dell that worked out like perfectly. >> Was it going up or going down? It The The company was in trouble. It was trading at six times earnings. Their laptop had caught on fire and they had this options hedging strategy gone awry that they had to do a mea culpa to the street. So, the street hated the stock.

16:48 But we had done some analysis using this new tool called return on invested capital. And they had like a 10 to 1 advantage over Compaq and the other companies because of how they worked their inventory and their positive cash flow cycle. And we went positive on it. They fixed those two problems. Stock went up 100X. [snorts] And you got credit for it. Yeah, I got credit for it. And I got to know Michael, which is awesome, and the CFO at the time, Tom Meredith. So, why do you leave that job if it was so great? And one of the crazy things about that job is you you go you visit companies, you go straight and talk to the CFO and the CEO. It's crazy.

17:22 You're 28 years old and you get to go straight to the top, which the access is unbelievable. Because they think you're going to say nice things about them. Maybe, but still you get you get you get in. Right. Journalists have that, too. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and podcasters now I meet them and they're like it's unbelievable. They just sit there interviewing people that they love. Like like it's so it's cool. Anyway, there was that great part.

17:46 I had the same exact exercise one day. The company was at Park Avenue Plaza, 52nd and Park, and the research team had the 36th floor and the corners were held by the senior-most people. And I'm there at 10:00 p.m. one night and I walk around the floor and I pause. I don't even know why I did this in front of each of those four offices and said, "Is that going to be me? Do I want that to be me 30 years from now?"

18:11 >> Uh-huh. And I got to know that night. I remember making that decision that night. That So, I want to Did you ever get to a place in your life where you looked up and said, "I want to be that in 30 years?" I never I When I got in venture, I never had that discussion with myself ever again. >> Okay. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So, you So, it didn't At least the sight of the people you wanted to be didn't You know, I kind of got prepared to tilt venture and and to leave. I didn't I In neither of these cases did I walk out the door the next day. I made a mental decision to to to find a way to go in a different direction.

18:44 >> interests you about venture capital? Um I just said I just answered this question the other day. So, I I I love technology. I love disruption. I really got into business strategy and this idea that you could bet on a a startup kind of outmaneuvering an incumbent and then being successful. And then you get to bet on it cuz I started trading stocks. When when I was in college, my friends and I would go to Binion's and and play single-deck blackjack. So, I had this gambler kind of thing, too. You like to gamble. Yes. Yes. You like to Technology disruption >> when you're counting cards or you like to gamble I prefer to have edge. I'm not I'm not When you sit at the slot machine No, no, no, never. You don't like that.

19:32 No. And I meet people that want to flip, you know, coins for Yeah. Yeah, for a lot of money. None. I have zero interest in that. >> the idea of having an edge and then bet making >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. All that. Right. And so, it was perfect. It was like all those things combined. And how did you know that? Like how would you even have discovered when you come in the >> Okay, so so Compaq was a startup that was very successful. My sister got options. I learned about that and started to have that idea. Um I get to Wall Street and there are hot young companies that are growing really fast that are exciting to cover. And then they're like, "Would you cover IBM?" And I'm like, "I don't like I had zero interest." So that told me I wanted to be more over here, even on the other side of that.

20:20 >> Right. You know, in the in what was happening on the edge. The edge was very exciting to me. And so and so the venture venture's where it gets really on the edge. And then I'd already decided I wanted to move to the buy side. It was either going to be public or venture. Right. Cuz the sell side you're you're you're >> If you actually know, you don't want to you want to do it yourself. >> Yeah, exactly.

20:40 You don't really have any money on the >> Those who say don't know and those who know don't say. That it's uh Yeah. So you're We should talk about your venture career, but I want to flash forward to your speech. Okay. >> We'll come back to you. You want It's interesting. You're kind of shy about talking about your career. I mean people who you said when you went to go sell a book that everybody wanted you to write about Uber or My career. Every single one of them. Yeah. Or or a memoir or Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't want a how-to book >> That's correct.

21:07 >> about how how to lead your life. >> Right. >> Right. So that would that but that that's interesting. But you you go you get invited to go back to your alma mater Yeah. and give a talk to a class at Yeah, it was a new incoming MBA class. Yeah. And you can talk about anything. >> Yep. Why did you decide to talk about this? There was a During my entire career I was a writer and I wrote more I started in as a sell side analyst you're forced to become a writer, but I I found a way to use writing as a way to differentiate myself as a venture capitalist. Started as a sell side analyst, but kept doing it through blogs. I mean it was started as a newsletter, but eventually became blogged. And in that process, and I'm sure writers do this as well, a new idea pops in my head. I grab a new file, open it up, put the notes in. And as something new comes across that's that's related to that, I stick it in there and see how it builds.

21:59 And you know, there for every blog post I did, there's three or four of those that never see the light of day. I was reading a bunch of biographies at one time and there was a third biography and I saw this through line to the second and the first. And the same way I'd write about frameworks for a new technology or new disruption or marketplace companies in the internet. It just I had that same kind of aha moment that these pieces fit together in this way. That there was a framework.

22:28 >> The biographies fit together. >> Yes. And what was it? >> And so I wrote >> pattern? You saw a pattern. I did. And then what was the pattern? >> Well, I thought it was So the thing that was super interesting to me is there were three people all in fields that your parents would tell you not to go into. It was a folk singer, a restaurant tour, and a basketball coach. They all started on the very bottom rung. Yep.

22:48 They were all insanely curious about their fields. So much so that they're out learning proactively on their own. Like not learning in a classroom where a teacher's teaching you. They're studious. >> doing it for an A. They're studious and all three of them are just studi- studious in a way that you that I've never seen other people do. You know, and uh Can you say who they are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean they're all three profiled in the book and in the video, but uh Danny Meyer, a restaurant tour in New York.

23:18 >> Yep. Uh took copious notes every time he visits any restaurant. Um Before he even becomes a restaurant tour. >> Yes, yes, yeah. Even as a hobby when he's young. Um Bob Dylan, who most people don't know how studious he was on his way up and the movie >> on his way up. And the movie missed it too, the new movie that came out. >> Good movie. But but the Scorsese documentary gets it, you know. But but I just And he's been a lifelong learner.

23:45 He just came out with this book about 50 songs that that mattered most. They're not is. Right. >> Right. So he's you know, like studying. And then then Bobby Knight, who in his early way up um forced his way in front of like six of the best coaches in the history of the sport. Like I've never seen a mentor pursuit like that Right. ever. Ever. And the thing I love really love about Bobby Knight, everybody knows the chair and the anger and all that.

24:16 >> Right. He has a coaching tree that is bigger than anyone that's ever coached. >> You put it up in this on a slide in your talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The number of people that either played for him or coached under him that have gone on to coach on their own. >> himself was a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I I think it's an interesting way to judge someone's impact on the world. You know, but Danny has the same kind of thing. If you talk to a chef that ever worked at a Danny Meyer restaurant, it matters to them. Uh-huh.

24:46 And that's got to feel really cool if you're Danny that that people care that they were just going through your your your program that you had a got exposed to it a little bit. So you're about to give this talk at the University of Texas. You notice this pattern. Yeah. These three people who you admire and interested in all had a kind of similar approach to the how they found their career in careers that no parent would say >> Yeah, and the intentionality like that that that part was really interesting to me. Like like Danny didn't originally have that intentionality. He had this amazing moment with his uncle one night at dinner. Um his uncle Richard. And and then the next >> Describe that moment. That's cuz it's an interesting moment. Yeah, I mean I if I have one goal of this book, it's to be Uncle Richard for as many people as possible. So Danny was poly sci at Yukon in in I mean at at Trinity in in Connecticut. And he worked as a salesperson, but always knew he's going to go to law school cuz he's poly sci. This was just you know, to save up some money to go to law school.

25:50 And he's going to take the LSAT um the next day and as he goes to dinner with his Uncle Richard and he I guess his Uncle Richard notices we he's got a frown on his face. He said, "Why are you so down?" He said, "I have to take the LSAT tomorrow." His Uncle Richard said, "Do Do you really have to? Like do you have to take the LSAT tomorrow?" And this led to a conversation where his Uncle Richard told him, "You know, Danny, all you ever do is think about restaurants. Why don't you just go open a restaurant?" It had never dawned on him. His father had had had had a couple of bankruptcies in the broad travel and leisure space. And so his father had kind of pushed him away from the idea.

26:30 He need he needed Uncle Richard to give him permission to go think about this thing. The two things going on there. One is one is um sort of freeing yourself from this sense of obligation to I I have to go do this. Yes. Supposed to go do this. I see you see that broadly. I'm supposed to go make a lot of money. Yes. And um and it that's really the trap. You get stuck in this I think you can get Shuts down your imagination. I think you can get stuck just because the grind today for for young adults is so hard that it feels like sunk cost. Yeah. Like you come out and >> all this to do. I've done all this work to get to this place. Like [snorts] going somewhere new I would be giving up all this work that I put out. So ignoring sunk cost is one of the great lessons in life.

27:17 >> Yes. Right. No doubt. Yeah. But so the but the second thing is it's that it's it's okay to go do the thing you want to do. Yes. Uh even if it sounds maybe not so promising. >> Yes. Because the the intensity with which you want to do it will will overwhelm everything. But and then the moment like once Danny had had that bit flipped, it changed everything. >> Right. Like and he became I mean he was already a studious on this industry, but he became this massive learner. He enrolled in a in a $300 restaurant management course that he found in a magazine on a corner of the street in those boxes, you know, in New York.

27:56 >> Yeah. Um and there's another character in the in the in the book that also went to a cosmetology course offered by the city of Los Angeles that's free. And this is this bottom rung notion like is really interesting to me. Like that you don't have to have networks or connections. You can And he took a job um that was paying like 15 grand a year just to learn. Like he knew it wasn't the income he needed, but he wanted the experience. You know, it's funny. It's it's um the old guild model. Yes.

28:30 The old you you are you're that you you apprentice. The old apprenticeship. >> Well, and then he went through Europe doing these stages, a fancy European word for work for free, which is the apprentice thing. And he went and did that all through Italy, all through France. >> But it is the way to learn. Yes. Yeah. And there are a lot of places lot of careers that really don't offer it. I agree. Yeah, like that it's you have to go almost insist upon the experience.

28:57 >> Yes. And and and you you're encouraging people to do this. Find But but one of your lessons is like find be good at finding mentors. Would Yes, but also note one one great test of whether you're really tilting at your your true obsession and fascination is do is that learning I call it free. Like like is that studying that Danny did? Like he was doing it before he ever like became convinced it could be a career. But like if you really love what you do, you you go home at night, you're reading about how to be better at it, you know. You don't think of it as You don't think of it as work. And I I would say you might even get positive energy from it. Whereas studying something you don't love might suck sap energy.

29:43 >> I want to talk about why people so many people do things they don't want to do. And by the way, Danny would would do that the rest of his career. >> it I mean, he would go on these tours. When he opened this Blue Smoke restaurant in New York as a barbecue place, he took his team all around America and sampled every bar the top barbecue places all over. When he opened Shake Shack, which the very first one in Madison Square, he went to 10 different burger places around the US and his team would debate what worked and what didn't. Like it's a it's a it's it's a very artisan approach >> Uh-huh. to what he did and what he does.

30:20 And he he wrote a book called Setting the Table where I gathered most of this information from. I and I've gotten to know him cuz he was on the board of OpenTable, but Did you interview all the people who were in here? >> Not all of them cuz Dylan's very hard to get to. >> [laughter] >> I I heard when Scorsese did the documentary, they had an intermediary. >> [laughter] >> So So just to finish with the talk. So you decide this is the subject of your talk.

30:44 >> Yeah. And you decide you're going to try to distill some principles you can get across to them. >> Yes. >> What were the principles? Cuz you've expanded on them. What were >> I added one. Uh so they were all those were there, but one. Okay. >> Uh Find your passion. We renamed it chase your curiosity and here people find the word passion very clichéish. Um And then there's those you you you quote Jerry Seinfeld saying >> Jerry Seinfeld gave a speech where he said >> out what you're fascinated by.

31:07 >> fascination and I think it's a better word actually. >> Yeah. Like this and then uh hone your craft, which is just uh immense continuous learning. And and I don't If you don't If you're not in the right lane, I don't think you can do the second one and the second one's a good test of whether you're in the right lane. They reflect on each other really well. Right. Um and all these people did it. I mean, the the Bobby Knight stuff where he's showing up, you know, to these coaches with 100 play cards and asking them if they'll go through them one by one with them.

31:37 >> Right. Like that's a that's a crazy level of obsession. >> What's the venture capitalist's version of hone your craft? Um >> What did you do to become a good venture capitalist? >> [snorts] >> I think you Well, for me I had the advantage of starting on Wall Street. So I had read Buffett and Howard Marks and Graham and Dodd and I I I think that gave me a different lens. I always said a vent- ventures creating products for the public markets to buy. So you kind of want to know what they want.

32:05 >> Right. Um and I came at it from that and then, you know, John Doerr and Mike Moritz like the contemporary leaders when I joined. Like you study them. You have, you know, there's books about the people that came before them. Right. You study those. And then in venture you have to study the edge of the technology and have insane FOMO about it. Did you feel like you got better with age? At the um You get better at sitting in a boardroom, keeping your mouth shut, being better at at at those kind of soft human skills.

32:42 >> Right. I think um staying on the edge gets harder as you get older. >> Okay. I think I've always said venture bends towards youth. Uh-huh. Because the new kids are doing new things, you know? Right. >> And uh and it's hard to it's hard to keep up with all of that. >> is absorbed with old things. >> Yeah. Yeah. As a venture capitalist gets older, they're they they they have families, they get second homes they might pick up.

33:05 >> Right. Like and it and it become harder to be all in. Right. Well, it's so before we So that this you you give this talk. Yeah. Um and you I can give you the other ones real quick. So just cuz you started that. Um development tours and I have some very specific ways to do that. I think people screw that up. >> Talk about that. >> Embrace your Okay. >> people screw up? They shoot too high.

33:29 Like they just they go up to someone who's got no time and say, "Hey, will you be my mentor?" >> Right. >> So they they shoot too high and they ask for this thing that seems gargantuan. Yeah. And it's just there's a nuance there's a nuance to getting that right and and that ain't it. No, I had a I I an undergraduate at Cal uh call me a few years ago and said we needed to write a book together.

33:51 >> [laughter] >> And I just thought this is I don't even know what to do with that. Yeah, exactly. >> [laughter] >> And I said, "Why do I need Why do I need It's ambitious. >> But yes. Okay. But but but but I recommend two things. One, I recommend and I borrowed this from Danny. When Danny set out to be a restaurateur, he there were 10 people that he um wrote down in a journal that were defining the new age of being a in the restaurant business.

34:22 >> Right. Wolfgang Puck and like people like that. And he he he kept like a fanboy journal on each one of them. And I think that's a great idea. Like if you're going to go be a writer, you know, have a profile of Michael Lewis and Malcolm Gladwell and Krakauer and like study what makes them great. Like there's there's never been a better time in the history of the world to learn on your own time. Right. There's so much stuff out there.

34:48 >> Yeah. Podcast, interviews on YouTube, AI. >> Yeah. You know, you can just tell AI, "Hey, you be this person for a while. I'm going to ask you some questions." >> So people shoot too high. Anything else they do that they should >> No, but I love this exercise of having this this this this group of people that you study at like as a fan person cuz I think you learn a lot through that and if you ever meet them one day, you now are in a much better way to have a nuanced conversation cuz you know so much about them. And then um And then the other thing just yeah, don't aim so high. Like grab someone two rungs on the ladder above you who's never been asked to be a mentor before cuz they'll be flattered that you ask.

35:30 And then you start you ask that question, I think. >> No, you never ask that question. No, you go up to them with with a very specific question about that relates to something they're really good at and you start a relationship. That's all in there. Right. I know. >> [laughter] >> So all right. Uh you want to go through the You want to go through >> Sure. Sure. So my favorite uh principle in the book is embrace your peers.

35:51 >> Right. And I don't think enough people do this and not I don't know that any books really ever talked about doing it, but I've come across a number of people now that that early in their journey, let's say all on rung one of the ladder, find a group of like-minded people that are that are heading in the same general direction and become friends. >> Mhm. And start a WhatsApp group, whatever, but but share ideas, share networks, share experiences, share your down days. They can be an incredible support.

36:24 >> Collaborate instead of compete. >> Yes. Yes. And I think we learn to compete from zero-sum games, finite games, and most industries outside of downhill skiing, the every there's lots of winners. Right. And so you don't need to be as sharp-elbowed. Right. >> And people that have done this I find are more successful, more fulfilled. Their network builds faster. I just think it's a really cool thing to like go build and and and on your career path. Can you think of an example of someone sharing something with you in your career where you kind of went I can't believe they're doing that for me? You know what I You know what that makes me think of?

37:03 In the Bobby Knight chapter, >> [snorts] >> his his coach gets some data from another coach and then later they end up playing that team and and Bobby Knight's team wins and Bobby reflects on whether that was a good idea for that coach to have given that. >> the set tools to beat >> then and then Bobby Knight went on to let all these coaches leave. He clearly didn't feel that that like a play was proprietary or anything like that. And so I thought it was cool that that when the first time he saw that, he stopped and paused and says, "Was that a mistake?" And then he and then he got over it and said, "No. No, that's just part of how this works."

37:43 >> People sense when you're um when you're operating in a zero-sum spirit. No doubt. And and they respond They should respond respond badly to it. You should kick them out of your your peer group if you feel that. >> Yeah. And there those people are out there. Oh my god. Well, Wall Street's full of them. >> Yes. Yes. But you can find people that don't, you know. That don't. >> Yeah. Yeah. One of my lifelong friends, Mike Mauboussin, I met when I was a sell-side analyst.

38:10 >> He's great. And we've shared books for the past 30 years. Yeah. Yeah. But it's So I'm going to stop you as you're going through this cuz I wanted to talk about this. You give this talk. Yeah. Uh goes on for I thought it was a commencement speech. >> No. But it was it's an hour and 10 minutes or something. No. I thought it was longer than a Yeah. Longer than Longer than a commencement >> Trump state of the union.

38:30 >> [laughter] >> But it But it But it's it's uh And you think that's it. You just You weren't You were giving a talk to give a talk. You weren't giving a talk cuz you were trying to advertise No. No. No. You desired to write a book. >> That That was That was it. >> but the response to the talk Well, they posted it on YouTube. >> And what happened? Um I started to hear from people who and I and since the book's come out, I've heard from even more people that had seen the talk, watched it with their children. I've met people whose careers are completely different now from seeing the YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. I met this guy, great. He's a high school teacher, loves football, and he saw that speech and said, "Man, I would just I wish I could just do football all day long." And it took about 5 years, but he launched a website where he categorizes offensive football plays and then he created a software app and now he's got like 700,000 followers and he's quoted by NFL commentators.

39:27 >> Who is he? Dan Casey is. Okay. Yeah. Huh. But anyway, it's fun to That's pretty fun when you hear that kind of stuff. >> giving people permission. Yes. To take the thing that they're Uncle Richard. Yeah, that. You're doing that. >> Yes. And but you're doing it from the perch of an extremely successful venture capitalist. >> Yeah. So that they think, "Well, if he thinks it's okay." I don't know if that carries the weight or not. I'd like to think the story >> some weight. Yeah. Of course it carries some weight. And then the other thing >> come back to you and said, "You screwed up my life.

39:57 >> No, I haven't heard that. >> my passion. >> [laughter] >> My life's ruined." I haven't heard it, but you know what's interesting about bringing that up? Daniel Pink wrote this book, The Power of Regrets, and he highlights in that book that people are really forgiving to themselves for regrets of action. And they're they the thing that that causes them immense anxiety is all the way up to the end of their life is What they didn't do. What they didn't do. Regrets of inaction. So even if that did not work for these people, I don't know that they dwell on it all that much because of that element, you know. Did you find the characters in your story? The that So this is something I have done since I was I don't know why. It's morbid. Since I was a kid.

40:40 Uh but I would think like when I'm when I'm about to die is what do I want to have done in the situation? It's the one of the ways I make decisions. Like when I look back on this, am I am I going to And it always pushes me in the direction of more risk-taking. I don't know if you know this, but Bezos has has something he calls the Regret Minimization Framework, which he admits is nerdy, but but when he was deciding whether to start Amazon or not, David Shaw was trying He worked at DE Shaw. David Shaw was trying to get him to not go, and he came up with this idea, which is He's going to argue his way out of his job.

41:15 >> No, no, he said, "What would my 80-year-old self advise me in this situation?" It's almost identical to what >> that. And I think it correlates with my or do you want to be doing this 30 years from now? >> Yes, I think that's right. >> And it's We We have a saying in the book, life is a use it or lose it proposition. And when you're young, [snorts] it feels like life is eternity. But when you're 40, it doesn't feel that way anymore.

41:39 >> And it flips on a dime. Yeah, and if you can get in touch with that sooner, maybe you're willing to take more risk. >> Right. Yeah. All right. So um The other thing that happened, James Clear found the video somehow, some way, and posted [snorts] and started talking about >> that's what that comment got. >> And not just James, but but the team, David Senra, who who who does the Founders Podcast, started mentioning it in a lot of his biography talks. He started going, "Oh yeah, it's like the Gurley talk." Like over and so it got out there amongst people. And then some people started poking me. Right.

42:14 >> [laughter] >> And you you um when you decided to do this as a book, you didn't do it alone. You have a co-author. >> I did get a co-author. Why? So part of this is is um When I in in just as you know, I became a voracious reader and I started to really appreciate long-form nonfiction. And your stuff, Gladwell's stuff, there's a book I don't know if you know about called The New New Journalism. I'm in it. Yeah, you're in it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just didn't mean you knew about it.

42:46 >> They interviewed me. >> [laughter] >> He interviewed me. He interviewed me at great length. >> And before that one was the new journalism Tom Wolfe's. Tom Wolfe's book that was put together and these techniques um I really having I had read those books for fun. Right. And so I when I decided I wanted to do this thing, I I had this ambition to do it really well. And and um I came up with this idea that we could alternate and interleave um stories or profiles with principles, which um Michael Dell's book had two threads interleaved alternating chapter, which part of made me think about that.

43:23 >> Yep. But I wanted the stories to read like exceptional >> [snorts] >> um nonfiction writing. Like like the the narrative stuff that you guys do. And I had met this there I'd read this article called The Greatest Bowling Story Ever. I may have sent it to you once. Um that was in D Magazine, and it was written by this guy Michael Mooney. And I read it in like a long time ago, but I met him one day. And I said, "You wrote that bowling story." And he said, "You You wrote that speech at the University of Texas." Oh, there's his That was his direct comeback. Yes, exactly. You're part of my chocolate.

43:58 >> And um he does a lot of writing for the Atlantic, and it it was in my mind the perfect person to hone the profile stories and make them come alive. >> Right. And I also was still practicing venture and didn't in my mind have the time to go do all of that myself. But he ended up becoming a co-researcher. We spent 5 or 6 years, and we read probably 100 biographies together. We talked to Adam Grant and Angela Duckworth and Daniel Pink. We got in front of all these people, and we went through all the academic literature on career satisfaction. And like we had a ball.

44:33 And the scope went like this. And did you find you A lot of the characters in the book are characters you talked about on stage. So you had >> Some of them are. Some of them are, but we added to it. You added a couple. We added a lot. And And one of the thing I Malcolm I got to talk to Malcolm, too. Malcolm Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, I had an unfair advantage in putting this together, but Malcolm's big push was use for the rest of the profiles use people people don't know. Yeah. Versus versus Bobby Knight Or Bob Dylan. Yes, yes. And so the rest of them that we added are more obscure stories. But it But it But wonderful. Like the Ginny Ekins story. I just think it's so wonderful. It It's um It's a greater literary challenge.

45:17 But But you have the benefit of being able to invent them for the reader. Yes. >> doesn't have the picture in their head as it is. >> Um And And like in in the Lori Bartlett chapter, who's a Hollywood agent, um you know, during the interview process, Michael's pushing her like, "Okay, so you love movies growing up. Where did you watch them?" And she told [snorts] him about this old theater in her hometown. And Michael went and found pictures of it. And like you you you've seen the writing in the chapter, right? Like it starts with her going to this theater, and he paints the whole thing. And it That's what I wanted. But I'm borrowing from the stuff you guys do like and learning.

45:52 >> I'm curious about Michael was doing some of that work, but I'm curious, did you notice another pattern? It's another pattern pattern I notice all the time writing about people. They don't see their own story. You that you can help them figure out what their story is. They're not They're not moving through life as narrative nonfiction writers. Yeah. They're They're not not They're not actually cobbling together a narrative at all. >> Yeah. And that Sometimes there's a like a wonderful narrative to create from what what's happened in their life.

46:21 >> And we did some other fun things like the uh We We usually made it just first name at the beginning and just kind of reveal >> who it is. And then We've blown that already. >> And then in almost all of them, the the peak is their first success. And then we just have like a paragraph or two about all this other stuff that happened. But we try and we try and uh land the plane the pinnacle at that first big success.

46:46 >> Did you Did Did you But these are all writing techniques. >> Is it Yes. Yeah. Uh it's but it's uh So you you figure out how to do it. Yeah. You go out in the marketplace with it. And the publishers don't really want you to do this. >> No. Why do you think that is? Um >> This is going to sell way better than any memoir by you. >> Yes. I'm I'm surprised. >> or how to be a great VC. How many people are going to buy that? I don't [laughter] know. Yeah, they don't want my book. And what what impact would it have on the world? I mean that's the other point, right? I mean what you're trying to do here is make the world better. Yes. You're trying to like make sure people don't take this wrong step in the Yeah, I there there's a piece of that we didn't hit on, which is I was at a at this odd conference that a friend of mine had put together where he tried to intentionally match people that wouldn't know each other. And [snorts] Brian Koppelman was there, the >> Yep. The Billions guy. the Billions guy and Rounders. And uh he has this thing he does where he tries to push people to do a creative act. Like he just said, "Hey, have you done anything creative? Go do something creative." And he starts poking me with this one night. And like I said, "Well, I've got this speech I gave at the University of Texas." And he went and watched it. And the next day, he's like, "You have to write a book.

48:00 You have to write a book." And then the other thing that happened, Tony Fadell, who's a good friend of mine, who Who's he? Tony Fadell was the inventor of the iPod and ran engineering for the iPhone and then was the founder of Nest. Okay. Um very successful. And he wrote a book called Build about building great products. Mhm. And he said it was the best thing he'd ever done. And listen to what I just told you what he accomplished. And I was trying to And And Danny had told me the same thing.

48:27 Like he's more proud of the book, Setting the Table, than all the other stuff that he had done. But it's almost as if when you go out in the publishing world, the publishing world is trying to do to you what the world does to young people. They're trying to get you to do the thing that doesn't mean anything to you. But it's easy. But it's easy, but they think it they can that seems like that it's a safe road.

48:47 >> It was a safer road. They wanted a safer road. The agent the meeting with agents was the same thing. And only one agent was willing to listen to this as a real idea. The the editor that we ended up closing the deal with loved the idea from the beginning. The one editor. Right. And he wrote me a letter that makes me cry if I read it again, explaining how much he understood what I wanted to accomplish.

49:12 >> Right. Like really like it was as good a pitch as I've ever given to a founder as to why they should take our money. >> [laughter] >> Like I was just like, "Oh, I'm done." I was like, "I'm done." Like you know, this is just that good. Did Did you Is one of the things that's motivating you You said, you know, you saw these patterns in people you admired, and that led you to give that talk. But how much did you see in your work life of people doing things for the that they weren't interested in because they thought they were supposed to do do it. Yeah. Um I don't think I'll tell you that the thing I think that that that that really fascinates me is the notion of unlocking human potential and someone going and accomplishing something that they wouldn't have otherwise. Like like in just um I get I I have this closet secret. I've been watching American Idol since season 1 and I just love I just love this notion that this person can get discovered and and then reach it's like it's like my version of the Hallmark Channel or something. Like I just Who's your favorite discovery on American Idol?

50:18 I you know, it's probably Kelly. Like it's the the the original. Like just maybe I was younger and more impressionable. I don't know. It's been 20 something years. But the idea that people have things in them that are not being that they aren't being found and recognized and are possible. And and if you think about And when I hear these stories, you know, that have been inspired or even when I read the ones that we wrote in there when I read the audio book a couple times I'd like choked up. It's kind of a weird thing to say. Crying at your own words. Yeah, exactly. It's like laughing at your own.

50:49 But it there's something about it I love. Like like the rags to riches like breakthrough. I love it, you know. Well, if you think about the American Idol situation, it tells you something about life in general, right? Because if that obvious a talent can have gone neglected Yep. what else can can go what can't go neglected? Like there are a lot more subtle talents that like the ability to run a restaurant. Yes. Uh that you the only way it's going to surface is if you insist on surfacing it. Yeah. And the world's not going to come find it. And they might they might be stuck because they don't feel like they have permission or they don't believe that they might be successful. Right. And that's the goal is to see if we can help them get to that place. Right. That's kind of what you I mean in your business life you're doing that a bit with entrepreneurs, right? Yeah, a bit. that's going on. the same. I mean I think there's a similarity between that and Idol where you know, you you meet a founder and there's two people in a PowerPoint and then you know, 10 years later, you know, there's three 4,000 employees and an IPO and like it's pretty cool. Right. Yeah.

51:54 We we backed OpenTable when they had three restaurants and I remember with my wife being in Bali and walking into a restaurant and seeing that device and I'm like, you know, this is there's 20,000 restaurants on this thing and I'm like, wow, like we really did it. Yeah. This is before Uber >> [laughter] >> obviously and then you know, look at that. Yeah. So there is like there's this fun thing of being able to see something early and see it thrive that I get emotional you've seen it over and over you know it can happen.

52:21 Yes. Right. Yeah. It becomes real in your mind because you've seen it before. I I I'm we're already cut over time. We're already over time on us. Uh so let me this is so this hasn't been sorted in any way for me but this is great. You've talked about finding a mentor. As a mentor, how do you ensure the greatest success for your mentees? And can you tell us your favorite personal mentor mentee story? Um I think I think the thing that uh this is this this won't sound that remarkable but like the more you can teach someone to learn themselves and teach them like helping them with one problem or one connection's not going to be everlasting. If you can teach them to learn and teach them patterns on how to connect and you know, get successful and and and really understand what they're working on or encouraging them I mean I might just hand them the book in the future. I mean that could save a [laughter] lot of time.

53:22 Um I had I got so lucky. I I I got lucky in in in numerous ways but when I got to Wall Street there was this gentleman I doubt you ever met him. His name was Charlie Wolf and he was an analyst at CSFB and he was a Columbia professor and he loved stocks almost Jim Cramer level of enthusiasm about stocks Yeah. and he was my mentor as as as a he was a mentor for the whole analyst group there but he knew my companies really well Yep. and he had this gravelly old voice and he just loved to talk about stocks and he'd say, "Come on, kid. Build a model. Build a model. DON'T ASK ME. BUILD a model."

54:02 >> [laughter] >> And it just made it so much fun. Like he had so much enthusiasm for it. Like just showing up and like it it made going to work like super exciting. to you. Yeah. Yeah. Mobius and too like he impacted a lot of us in in that circle. Here's what I want this is floating in the back of everyone's minds. Uh all for following interests and curiosities but how do you deal with the realities of needing income? Any suggestion?

54:34 What's the line of how much there is What's the line of how much I can't read the rest. That's okay. Yeah, we know. I mean I I I get this question some. So so I started getting the question early even after the video and you know, several of the stories in the book people really do start at ground zero. So Jen moved to LA with $200 in her pocket. Now Bob Dylan. I guess you could be yeah, Bob Dylan hitched hiked to New York with $10. So you could be in debt. So I guess you could be worse off than they are. Right. And and and and more inflexible. Right. Um and and look there's some level of um the world's problems that this book's not going to be a solve for. Like that's not the whole purpose of the book.

55:18 Right. Um I I was inspired by getting this question a lot and if you look on the last page in the book, I'm going to launch a foundation called the Run It Down a Dream Foundation. I we'll see how it goes but we're going to offer 105,000 dollar grants to people who need a little boost to get headed in this direction. Uh-huh. We're going to do applications. That's very cool. And so we'll see what happens, you know. And then if Are you going to vet these applications? Yeah, and Michael Mauboussin the co-writer wants to be on we're we're going to have a little board that goes through them and we have to build the application. Right now the website has an email form that says let us know when the application opens.

55:55 Has anything so nothing Yeah, people have submitted emails. And then we're we're going to go build the application. write about it? Yes. Yes. I'd love to come write about it. That would be I or a podcast about it. That would be a really interesting little exercise. Yeah. See what comes in the door and what you think of them. Yes. And then and then one thing we're going to do is if you show meaningful progress which we will define over time. just you you get another grant. Just model what you said.

56:21 You have opened up your literary material to me uh without asking for anything. It's like you could do another book out of that. Well, I have a I I'll tell it just for this audience although I think they're posting this on YouTube. Um my my my ultimate dream version of the foundation is enough people are successful that read the book that they contribute to it and it has an evergreen life to it. I'm not starting it that way. I'm just starting it with my money and money from the book. Right.

56:51 But but but hope that's like my dream version of it that it would become this self-reinforcing thing. We'll go see. Two years from now I might say it didn't work for all these reasons. I don't know. Right. All right. Unemployment is 4% but for 20 somethings it's 12%. Yeah. What advice do you give to young graduates who are experiencing anxiety that AI is taking away entry-level jobs? Yeah. So so this is the most popular question of all these days.

57:18 Um There's a there is a reality that there First of all, I love Covey's principle you know, understand your circle of influence. What's inside of it and what's outside of it. And AI is outside of your circle of influence. You're not going to stop it. You know, it's not going away. You're not going to lobby the government to put it in a box. I mean try but it'd be a weird way of optimizing your situation. Right. And so >> [laughter] >> And so think about that if you think about that pragmatically it takes away like what is the real value of sitting around being anxious? There's no proactive movement in that whatsoever.

58:02 And in fact it's probably negative for what you're going to go do. Right. And so that said I have a couple of pieces of advice. One, in any role in any field be the most AI enabled version of yourself you can possibly be. There's tons of anthropologists that have written about how we evolve with our tools and you can just imagine a farming competition between a guy with a tractor and some drones and the other guy's got a plow and a donkey. Who's going to win?

58:31 Right. And and and and you need to think about it that way and if there are 40 people in your org all doing the same thing and you understand how AI affects that role more than the rest of them, you're not getting laid off. Right. Like it's just not going to happen. Right. And you'll also start to understand what parts of your job are a threat or not and maybe you can elevate yourself to where you're a designer and not the the worker be because you now have this power. Right. I would also say that if you really treat your job with high agency and you're kind of have this custom career path that you've mapped out using the principles of this book um AI is like a superpower.

59:12 Like you can learn faster than you could have ever learned before. You can get more things done like with fewer people. Yep. It's you can really accelerate yourself and I meet I've met all kinds of people that view it that way. But if you're in a job you don't love and you don't [snorts] really consider yourself an artisan and you're not pushing the forefront you're you're more likely to get run over by this. One thing that's interesting if you think about your job as an artisan you're painting what hasn't been discovered yet.

59:45 >> That's right. And all the stuff that's in the LLM is all the best practice that's already been written down. Right. So if you somehow put yourself on the edge of the industry and are thinking about what's coming in the future you're more future proof from this. But you're only going to do that if you're super fascinated by the subject matter. >> Right. Yeah, the nuance artisans really get into nuance and the nuance isn't in the models.

60:11 You know there's another version of this the the version of my career is that when I mean well before I went I felt like a subject had been dealt with and basically done I completely lost interest in it that the interest was what had not been done or what people weren't paying attention to and so it doesn't I mean maybe one day it will be a threat but it doesn't feel like a threat. And and I don't think it does to anybody who has that mentality about what they do. I've met some local entrepreneurs that like run laundromats or stuff and they're they're like do you know what this stuff can do? Like I was thinking about launching a fourth location and I didn't know where to put it in the city and I told her about these and it like spit out the next three spots and started looking up things that were available like and they're like they're like giddy like oh my god [laughter] do you does anyone know about this? It's so awesome. Like it's an interesting contrast from those people to and Mark Cuban the other day tweeted he said he said there's two types of people the people that use LLMs to learn faster and the people that use LLMs to not learn at all. I thought that was profound.

61:23 >> interesting. Yeah, that's a good separator two things. Here we go. You talked about the importance of finding peers. What do you think gets in the way of people finding their tribes? What what was most helpful to you? The the thing the number one thing we already talked about is this sharp elbow thing and if you've been trained as a highly competitive athlete or at a super competitive high school you might have these zero sum notions in your own brain that you got to learn to get over and get around and put away. I would say put away.

61:56 Put them away. Right. >> [laughter] >> If if you co-evolve with a group of people and you all succeed like it makes the journey so much more fun. Like so much more fun. >> this from athletics. Perhaps. Yeah you not necessarily you can. Yes yes. Yes. >> What's the career risk you almost didn't take and what pushed you over the edge to take it? Almost didn't. I took most of them. You know one one of the things that made me think of this thing I I got invited to hang out with Rick Rubin at Shangri-La his studio for three and a half hours and man that was cool. Like that was cool. But in his book he says he says every single career move I made all my friends advised me against and they were all the exact right decision.

62:48 He said that. Yeah he said that in his book. Like like just trust your gut trust >> time imagining Rick Rubin asking his friends for their advice. Well maybe that maybe maybe [laughter] maybe he maybe he told him I'm going to go do this and they say you're stupid. Like he walked away from the Beastie Boys after the first album. As an example but then he produced LL Cool J and then all this other stuff started. No he does you know he is a really good example of you you never know where he's going to go next cuz he's following his own he's got some sound in his head.

63:20 >> to be to not answer the question but I go back to that thing my father did of going to do NASA. I never felt like risk averse in making my career decisions. I never like had that in my brain. All right so there's a related one but maybe this maybe the answer is nothing. What would you do differently if you were to start your career all over again? >> I don't think I would do anything different. I the two the two step the two places I ended up you know leaving were great stepping stones for where I ended up. Like they added to it all added up. Like it weren't bad places to have gone.

64:02 >> But both the couple the two moments in your career that are really really important are the moments you leave Compaq and the moments you leave Wall Street and it's both the same reason. It's both you're not learning anymore and you're not you you sense this kind of and you weren't afraid to go try something. >> Right. Why didn't you have that fear? Where do you think that where do you think the absence fear is a great motivator in people's lives and it just takes them all kinds of sad directions.

64:25 Why did you I can only I mean the only thing I can attribute to is that father story. I don't know. I don't know maybe reading reading about people you know jumping and moving and trying new things you reading your book like >> [snorts] >> I I didn't I didn't have the fear. I mean with sometimes when you land in the new place actually when I landed in a new place I was excited. When I first got to New York man that was cool. Yeah.

64:50 And when I got to the Bay Area man that was cool. Like being here like you just found a resting place. Yeah for a long time you didn't get you didn't get agitated with it. I loved the job. I really really adored it. We're going to do one VC story all right cuz we got one minute left and I I don't have any idea what this is but apparently you have a story about how you and Barry Bonds secured an Uber deal.

65:12 There's there's some mixed messages in there and I don't know who who had No no no well it wasn't it wasn't Uber it was a company called Jamdat. We were competing with Sequoia um for a deal and we um we we became aware that the uh that we were in a competitive situation and this was at the time where Barry Bonds was you know crushing it and um when they were in the meeting deciding what to do and that timing was somewhat lucky we delivered a signature bat from Barry with a note that said let's go hit a home run together. Ah. And it showed up as they were making the decision.

65:54 >> How did you get the bat? I don't remember. My my >> [laughter] >> my assistant Amy who who's in the room it probably knows the answer to that and she probably did it. So. >> [laughter] >> Ladies and gentlemen Bill Gurley. Thank you all. >> [applause] >> Um All right we got to do some we got to do something formally. >> Okay. Just in case. Me too or just in case? No you can I think you got to sit here anyway. You shouldn't leave. Our thanks to Bill Gurley author running down a dream how to thrive in a career you actually love. We encourage you to pick up a copy of Bill's book here or at your local bookstore and for information about the Commonwealth Club World Affairs membership and upcoming programs please visit www.commonwealthclub.org.

66:43 I'm Michael Lewis and have a good night. Thank you. And I'll I'm going to be in the back >> [applause] >> signing a book. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Yeah.