This App Could Change the Trades Forever (JNCTN) | Alex Wakeland, Dan Stemp & Benjamin Moore | 185

0:16 Let's get into this, guys. I'm really excited for this episode because like we shared in the last one, we set it up. I think this is a gamecher in the industry and and not just in the industry but like worldwide for a bunch of different reasons. This is important to get into the earballs of a lot of people. So, yeah, maybe just go around give yourself brief introduction. Start with you and yeah, brief introduction where you are, where you come from, that sort of thing first just to get going. Yeah.

0:45 >> so yeah, I'm Dan Stemp. I'm Junction's chief customer officer. I've been with Junction since day one. I'm one of the founders at Junction. I've got a 20 year history in identity and credentials. really passionate about solving problems around identity and around, you know, verifiable information and really excited to be here and talking with you. >> Cool. >> Great to be here too. Awesome to be in Houston and back with Alex. Dan and I have done a lot of travel to the States, so really good to be here. Ben Moore. I'm the chief strategy officer at Junction, so nearly two years now.

1:19 Nowhere near as long as Dan, but it's been a it's been a wild ride for the last two years, particularly focusing on on North America. I have a background in software development and consulting, but Junction was a real opportunity for me to just see a product that was connecting with a group of consumers that that really mattered. And I think Alex is, you know, real testament to that. So, it's been awesome building this product. great connecting with Alex and really happy here to to talk about that.

1:47 >> Yeah. And I'm Alex. I was on the last episode, but I'm a journeyman lineman and I'm kind of a tech first type of lineman. So I always look for elegant solutions to old problems and applying stuff in different ways. And this is kind of it. It was my brainchild idea that they were already doing. And I was literally searching the world for a solution. And it was like the stars aligned type of thing because it was like, "Oh, you're doing the exact thing we need." And then it was just a little bit of a process to convince them that we did need it. And then now we're here and this is the third year in a row that they've been over to the States kind of going around promoting and talking about it, gathering all the information about the problems and stuff. So I'm just super excited to start solving the problems.

2:39 >> Cool. All right, let's dive into it. what was the moment you realized the credential problem in the trades needed a digital solution? >> So, it was really early. So, I've had a computer since preschool. Like, you know, they had the big discs that you'd put in and it had a little game and you that was how I learned how to do everything. So, I've I've typed everything my entire life. And I'm I'm dyslexic in production. So, I've leaned heavy on a computer. Like, I can't spell anything longer than four letters. I'm I'm trash at spelling, but I can talk fine. So, I would talk into a computer.

3:14 I would use spellch check on a computer. And that's how I've made my way through life. And I got all the way to the college level before I was even diagnosed as dyslexic because I was leaning so hard on computers. And like society was adapting so fast that they were pushing us into computers. So, I didn't have to write anything. Well, I got into the trades and now I have to write everything. like all of the new hire paperwork was 15 20 pages long and it was the same repetitive information and this was in 2008 when I was an apprentice and so work was kind of scarce back then so even as an apprentice I was going from job to job to job and like about the fourth one I went on I was like all it's a different company but all your paperwork's the same why isn't there a database for this and so that's where the kernel of the idea started and it was just like I I always just assumed somebody has already doing it that somebody somewhere is solving this problem. I just have to find them. And that was the beginning of my quest. And it took me until, you know, 2019 before I finally found a company that was working on this way longer than I thought I would. I thought I was just going to flag the problem and somebody was going to fix it. That didn't happen.

4:23 >> How did you guys connect? >> Yeah, that's a good story. >> Yeah. So, I like I said, I was on a quest to solve this and I cold pitched a customer service line. So, it was like I was on a website and it was like, "Do you have any questions or suggestions?" I was like, "I do." Typed up a four-page paper, made my wife edit it for me because, you know, like I said, terrible. >> And so, so then I sent it and I got a call from a very confused customer service lady. She's like, "You want to do what with what?" And I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad you're here to listen." And I talked to her for three hours.

4:59 >> What? >> Yeah. And she's like, I know she was trying to be polite, but I was I'm the littlest brother. I don't care if I'm annoying. Like, I'll just keep talking. >> And so, she'd she listened to all of it. God bless her, whoever she was. And then she passed me up the chain to like the next level up. And then they passed me on to the next level up. And like I wound up getting a call from Dan.

5:21 I don't think it was actually your your other I forget her name now, but anyway, it was somebody else that called me and I started explaining all the problems and she was like, "You just don't understand. Like, there's no way this is how you guys are doing it." I'm like, "Oh, no. This is how we're doing it. Okay, fine. We'll put you in this in this team's channel and blah blah blah." And so then I just started sending them new hire paperwork. Every time I did a new hire, I'd scan it all, send it to them, and they were like, "You've done like 15 of these this year." And then I get a call from Dan, and Dan's like, "Hey, we're gonna be in >> Vegas.

5:56 >> We're gonna be in Vegas for an Identity Verse. Why don't why don't you come and meet us?" And I was like, " should I go? Should I not go? It costs money. It's this that." And my brother's like, "You're an idiot. You're going." Like, you've been talking about this every to anybody who will listen literally for years. You're going. And so that was when I first met Dan. And then he was like, he described what they do in New Zealand. I was like, we're not even close to that. Like that would be that would be next level. And they're like, "No, th this is what they were doing before. We fixed it. Now we're doing this." And I was like, "Oh, yeah. We got to have that here. Just bring it on."

6:31 And so then we've been getting closer and closer ever since. >> Talk about your perspective of that. >> Yeah. I first of all, Alex is so super enthusiastic about anything that he talks about. It was hard not to listen to him about, you know, the problems he was describing that he had here in his workforce and >> they just resonated so much with us as a company and what we'd already done in New Zealand. >> so we had to come and meet him.

7:00 you know like you said you know we entertained conversations for you know a period of months before we actually physically came and met him in person. but yeah his advocacy for the workforce and the problems that he was really passionate about solving was a slightly different take how we were solving it in New Zealand. It was very much a a topdown approach and what we saw with Alex was this bottom up approach which we knew was the future. so yeah look we obviously we we formed a partnership with Alex Alex to you know bring this to the United States and and essentially to the blue collar workforce you know which do we think is you know something that's really empowering for individuals and you know is is where the future is is what we see.

7:49 >> What are some of the unmet needs that you've observed with traditional credential verification? So a lot of it is like there's no there's no central point of truth. So like this company does this this way and that company does that that way and then you know from the contractor world the utility is just trusting that that all happened and a lot of times it's not. So it really it sets this imbalance of the reward system. If you can lie and get away with it you get rewarded and it's faster, it's more costefficient. you get more bodies on the ground quicker. And the the way I see it is you can't expect the people at the bottom to fix the system because they're not going to. The system has to change so that the reward is is removed. The the right way of doing it should be the fastest and easiest way of doing it. And that's what Junction facilitates.

8:46 >> What do you got to add to that? Yeah, I think one thing we saw with how we started using verifiable credentials was exactly what Alex said, the trust, you know, trust in or what was the old day in New Zealand was here's a certificate, you know, are you who's verifying that certificate an expert to make sure that certificate's not fraudulent. And look, with the rise of AI, it's pretty easy to, you know, to fraudulently reproduce that stuff now.

9:13 So, what we wanted to bring to the party was a verifiable way of checking things on the spot, pre-qualifying things before people turn up, you know, to make sure that it was actually true. And we say, you know, the right people for the right jobs. so that's what we knew we could bring to the table. because coming from the security printing game, you know, I knew that with a plastic card printer, how easy it was to reproduce any plastic token on the marketplace. So we wanted to take that an extra step further and give a verifiable way of you know literally even on the spot you know validate whether something you know is is true hasn't been revoked you know it's current hasn't expired and and these are all things that you can do with verifiable credential technology >> talk a little bit about the because you talked about in New Zealand this this top down approach and Alex mentioned like this sort of stuff was already happening in New Zealand. Talk about how that was birthed kind of like verifiable credentials and why this came about even and like when it started to come about in New Zealand first like where does this all kind of come from this idea of verifiable credentials and this modern way of doing it. So I I'll talk about it in the context of the energy sector in New Zealand and that's why we've come over here to approach the energy sector here in in the states as well is in New Zealand we had this organization across the generation sector called stayife and it was you know essentially all of the generation companies coming together and saying hey look there's no intellectual property and health and safety we should all come together for some form of common currency for individuals sharing their credentials. the way that they solved that problem was with a green book, literally a green paper pass book.

11:06 but it was a way for individuals to take around their training, showcase to people who needed to validate that they were the right person for the right job. >> And that worked across different contractors, different companies. It was like this is the point of truth. we've since digitized that green book for them in what's called in the industry the stayife competency tool and it's just essentially a junction digital wallet. But what we've done is we've created this whole digital ecosystem of the trainers who issue the training, the contracting companies who receive the training and the individuals who carry the credentials with them. we've all given them a way to either issue credentials or consume credentials or hold credentials.

11:50 that's that's unique and that's very disruptive to how things are done, you know, right now and in lots of different industries. And this is not just a utility or an energy sector problem. This is any sector who hires a workforce. with what we've done is very much a laser focus just because we've had success in the New Zealand industry. it is now mandated across the industry in New Zealand that this is the common currency that you use when you're showcasing credentials.

12:22 >> So look, we've had some really good backing from the generation industry to implement this. New Zealand's a small country. You know, we're only 5 million population geographically, probably the size of California. It's a great test market to test technology. you know the first payment cards were you know were issued in New Zealand and the system was tested in New Zealand to see whether it had scope to go anywhere else in the world and that's exactly what we've done with the energy industry in New Zealand and and what we've done with our digital wallets and verifiable credential technology and now we're just kind of you know seeing where else in the world it can fit and it just so happens that there are some unique problems here in the US especially around storms that you we can open up technology here and it can have a real difference and and make some impact.

13:14 >> Explain the the top down approach again. Why it was why it was more of a top down approach in New Zealand compared to that bottom up approach in the US. >> I think what the generation companies knew needed to happen is that it needed to be pushed from the top down to get the workforce to use it. And not saying that's the only approach. I think since when we implemented it in New Zealand, we're going back to, you know, 5 years ago now when it was implemented. I think that's shifted now and there's a lot more emphasis on individuals empowering themselves with their own credentials. You know, we see it with, you know, payment wallets and, you know, this this idea now that I'm in control of where I keep my information. you know, identity fraud, AI, a lot of this now has more emphasis on the individual.

14:07 And I think if we were to approach it again in New Zealand, we probably would have some of that bottom-up approach, but it was just timing really. it was just that it needed to come from the top. doesn't say that there wasn't immense value for those individuals who are using it, but it it was driven from that top down. be because of that stay alive group that really kind of looked after health and safety across the the entire sector.

14:32 >> I I have an opinion that I think it was because of socialized medicine. So like in their country >> they don't you can't sue for liability. So it's like if it's if people are dying or people are getting hurt, it's expensive for everybody because everybody's on the ticket for that. So this is a system that they can show it really does make people safer. If that is important to you, you should have this system. I think that's actually the quote from the their health and safety administer for the energy sector was like if you care about your people, you will do this program because this makes people safer. And in America, a lot of liability is shifted. So if you aren't solving rich people's problems, it's not going to get solved. And so one of the reasons why it's coming from the bottom up is just like PPE, just like the safety regulations, it's the workforce that carries the brunt of that. So like when my identity gets stolen because the secretary gave it to somebody they weren't supposed to, that's my problem.

15:35 The company's like, "Sorry about your luck. I'll pay for Lifellock for two years." That's happened to me three times. And it's like, "Okay, Lifellock works for three years and then like I didn't change my social security number. it's the same. So like now I'm now I have to worry about my identity getting stolen. And so it's it's a it's a bigger problem for the individual here. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's a a boots on the ground kind of movement here. Whereas over there they were like this is everybody's problem. Let's just solve it because they're they're polite Kiwis.

16:08 >> Were was that the original problem that you reached out? like what was the the two or three like original issues that you're like I want to solve these problems. >> Yeah. So like I wanted to solve my problems. I don't like paperwork. I wanted to get rid of it. So that's what I wanted to solve. And I quickly realized nobody cared that I didn't like paperwork. So I was like, "Oh well, >> I got to figure out somebody else's problem." And then it was like, "Oh, the safety thing." Because I saw the safety metrics in New Zealand and how it improves safety by showing not just that you're qualified, but you're competent.

16:39 I was like, "Oh, yeah. This this is it. this is how I'm going to sell it. And I figured out that just gets you through the first gatekeeper. And then you get to the next one. And the next one's like, cool, it solves safety, but I worry about the budget. I don't I'm not the safety guy. So then it's like, oh, okay, well, I can reduce manh hours on new hire paperwork. And then you get to the next gatekeeper, and it's like every gatekeeper has their own problem they want solved before you get to the the next gatekeeper. And then it's like, it's funny because like you get this big sales pitch, you have this big spiel that you're like, "This is it. I'm going to nail it. And you do. And then you just get to the next gatekeeper and your sales pitch doesn't mean anything to them. You have to figure out a whole new what is their problem. And like some people it's the it's the green factor.

17:22 They don't want to use paper. They don't want to use ink. Some people it's safety. They want to make people safer. Some people it's efficiency. They want to reduce manh hours. And it's like this does all of those things. But for me to sit here and tell you how it does all those things, we're going to be here for a couple hours. So how much time you got? And I'm the little brother. So I will talk >> let's well let's talk about the how let's break it down into whatever compartments it needs to be broken down into like >> the the app and what it does break it down and explain it like in each component.

17:57 >> Okay. >> So like we could do a simulated I'm going on storm. So I get a text message and we'll call it an east coast storm because they're generally the most chaotic. You get an East Coast text message saying, "Would you like to go on Storm with Company Power Line podcast, they're they have a storm company. Would you like to come? We need your driver's license, your social security number, this, this, and this. This is the contract you're going under, and this is the the PDM we're going to give you."

18:27 The next step is you send them your driver's license, your social security number, all of your information. You don't actually know who's on the other end of that. You don't know where it goes after that. You've just given them all your data. Let's assume that went well just for the sake of the argument. You show up now. You get there. Their insurance says you're not cleared yet. You can't drive the truck. So, we're processing. Give me all your photo copies. Show me the proof that you have what you say you have. And let's assume that that guy also is who he said he was. And he shows up and now he gets in the truck. You don't know if that truck is verified, if it has all its stickers, if it's even got a license plate because it might have a license plate on it. You don't know if it's attached to it. Let's assume that is okay. And this is what we're doing right now. We are assuming these things >> all the way until we get to Storm. And you show up on Storm and then all of a sudden the insurance calls and says, "Hey, that guy had two DUIs and his CDL's revoked, so get him out of the truck. He already drove there, but now he's on the roster. So now you're on the hook for that guy. Well, better go hire a groundman to drive the truck around.

19:31 Okay, fine. You open the bins. There's there's no tester. Well, what are we going to do? Well, we got one tester to share for the whole show up. Like, these are things that are happening right now that we we have the ability to solve, but nobody has the willpower. And it's like, there's several safety violations just in all those assumptions. Your data security is completely whack. Like, everything about that system sounds absurd. And when I would describe this to them in New Zealand, they're like, "That's not how it's going." Like, "Yes, it is. I am actively doing this right now." And they're like, "Nobody in their right mind would do that." I'm like, "We're all doing it >> like >> thousands of us." Yeah.

20:11 >> Multiple times a year, >> just just in storm, never mind everything else, regular operations. >> It's insane. And it's like, "Well, why would anybody do that?" I'm like, "Well, I'm making, you know, I'm in New York. I'm making four grand a week." Oh, yeah. I guess I I can see why you would want to do that. It's like, yeah, this truck they snuck on, if it's here for a month, that pays for an entire house. You can go buy a house with that. Oh, yeah. I guess the motivation is there to lie.

20:37 And if you get caught one truck that's wrong and you snuck on two other trucks and they didn't get caught, you've just rewarded them for cutting the corners. And that is the that's the whole problem with the system. Everybody at every single level is motivated to lie. I'm motivated to lie to the contractor to get on the job. contractor is motivated to lie to inflate their rates and the utility is motivated to lie because they don't want the liability. So it's like you guys not see how broken your system is and like the more you study it the more you're just like everywhere you look it's worse. It's like, "Oh, yeah, and you're doing this wrong." And >> trying to get to the right table where you can tell them with a straight face, this is where you're messing up. And coming from a lineman, it doesn't always land well because they're like, "You're just a worker. You don't know what you're talking about." Like, well, maybe, but you kill a lineman a week.

21:32 >> So, it's who's doing a bad job? I've never killed a lineman. So, good point. We'll knock it on. Yeah, knock on the table for that one. >> But but what we've done with what we've developed the the app the platform we call it a platform. The platform we've developed is based around verifiable credential technology. So verifiable credentials a global standard you know by the worldwide web consortium essentially around it's based on truth and the essentially there's three players in this. We call it the the triangle of trust. There's an issuer, a verifier and a holder. And an issuer may be, you know, a a training provider who's issuing some form of training into the marketplace. A holder will be someone like Alex who actually consumes that credential in something, you know, like a digital wallet that he can pass on to somebody else. And a verifier is that person that he passes on to to validate that it's real. So what we've built with the platform is a full credential management system. So it's for that issuing authority to manage all of the credentials they issue. So let's say for instance it's a a licensed building practitioner register. So it's you know all of those license builders in let's say in New Zealand you know they issue them their verifiable credential that individual can consume it and then they can showcase it to anybody who needs to validate that they are a licensed builder.

22:59 the the technology is being used in some some other places like you see digital driver's licenses you know especially here in the United States a lot of states kind of getting on board it's the exact same type of technology this idea of cryptographic proof that an individual can co showcase that something is true >> how does it protect the worker talk about how it protects the worker more in detail and then how it protects the business I I guess in detail.

23:28 >> So, yeah, that's like you don't act we've talked to a couple insurance providers and they're like, "We don't actually need your driver's license. We just need to know that it's a real driver's license and it's currently valid." Well, if the insurance trusts Junction and the company trusts Junction and Junction says, "This is a valid driver's license," you just get a green check mark. So, now that company, if they get hacked for whatever reason, all they see is everybody who was working here was in compliance. You didn't lose everybody's driver's license. I didn't lose any of my personal identifying information. Everything about me is safe and protected. The company is now not on the hook for all that cyber security personal identifying information. And so it protects not just the person, but every single company in that chain. And then you can share that chain. So the contractor can share with the utility.

24:19 Everybody is in compliance. Everybody driving a truck is allowed to drive a truck. Everybody here is supposed to be here. And that's like not possible at the moment in any other system. >> So like at a at a more basic level as well, right? We're we're building a platform where there's a single place for alignment to manage everything they need to be ready to work, right? So u it's not just training, it's your identity information, it's driver's licenses, it's physical documents that right now you have to provide photos for and you email them off. We just think that's a really inefficient system. So the cyber security is a massive part of it. It's about getting all of these things in a single place that's secure.

24:58 It's managed by a company that understands software. You know, Dan talked about 20 years we've been building software. it's been a long journey, but to do it right takes a lot of expertise. So there's that trust there that all your information is together. And when you go onto a job, the onboarding is the the key process that really sucks a like nine hours I think was the average that we found from research >> that people are being paid just to do paperwork. So the dream for us is that as a lineman if there's a storm call, you'll be able to just select the right things and share them with the click of a button. On the other side, obviously companies benefit from this really consistent source of data. It's all in the same format. They can review it very quickly and it's all auditable. there's lots of flow on benefits. But I think that's the first kind of use case that you'll start to see real impact in the states through >> and it's about getting boots on the ground faster, right? That's that's what we hear consistently. That's what utilities want. Contractors, they don't want to be paying people for paperwork.

25:54 They want to be paying people to do work and we know that the workers want to be out in the field fixing stuff, right? >> Yeah. like some some of your horror stories of literally lining up to hand over your >> information to be photocopied by a bunch of people before you can actually start going to work, you know, like >> painful. >> And then you find you're missing that one piece and it's like Yeah. I mean, talk to us about that, Alex.

26:16 >> Oh, yeah. Like you're missing you you showed up on Storm and they're like, "Oh, we need birth certificates this time." It's like, I didn't bring that. They're like, "Well, we need it." Like, >> I don't know what to tell you. They're like, "Well, you're already on the roster." I'm like, "Yeah, I know. I would like to be paid. So, like, how are we gonna fix this? And they're like, " just get us a birth certificate as soon as you can." Okay. Like, >> so that's like I've had that problem, too. Like, you you as a person don't want to travel with a freaking a passport, a license, a birth certificate, a social security number.

26:46 Like, you don't want to pack your whole freaking no >> lunch kit full of yours and, you know, IDs and >> look, same thing with >> I've lost that before. I've lost my physical wallet before. Luckily, I got it back, but I set it on the I set it on the step of the bucket truck I was driving. Drove away after the gas station and it fell on the ground and Good Samaritan got it back to me.

27:07 >> But yeah, like the first thing the cops said to me when I called the cop, well, the cops called me. We have your license. Well, he's like, well, actually there's a lot of ID in here. I'm like, I explained the whole scenario like actually I'm a lineman. What? I got to pack all this stuff everywhere with you. >> They're like, are you a spy? >> Yeah. Well, that's where the solution like we started looking at some of that stuff and you know we were dealing with the builders and the plumbers and I started to see you know these plastic card wallets with you know 15 to 20 different plastic cards which is their first aid you know license their driver's license their social security card and then there was the folder with all of the paperwork in it as well. I was like, "Really? This is how you share this information?" And if someone wants to check something, spot check you, hey, have you got your working height certificate? You'd come down, you'd go back to your van, you'd grab your folder, and you'd, you know, you'd hand over your information. It just seemed so silly that that's the way that that things were being sorted. So, you know, we wanted to solve some of those problems and we knew we could.

28:06 There's also a part of it like from the business side like I used to have to do this when you're like bidding projects just the project package that you're submitting all of your information a lot of times you got to prove as a company you got to prove your workforce right and the qualifications of your workforce as well that's a big part of it as well like to to prove that you're even qualified as a company to bid this project >> and it's always to me I'm always like who's checking to make sure that they're telling the truth and they're like, "Yeah, well, it's their liability if they're lying." I'm like, "Yeah, but just make it not possible." Like, just close the loophole.

28:43 >> But also, what happens to that information? >> You know, like what where does that information go? Like, >> you know, I'd hate to think where some of those photocopied documents end up, you know, are they just sitting in some filing cabinet somewhere in somebody's office? And who has access to it? And, you know, when they're finished with it, do they actually go and destroy it? And look, I've experienced these problems myself dealing with lawyers or dealing with accountants. You know, they want to validate your identity to get your business and it's here. I hand over my passport and you photocopy my passport and it sits in a filing cabinet. Well, who has access to my information? And when you know I'm no longer a customer of yours, does that information get deleted? So this personal accountability of being able to take back that information when you know that company no longer needs it or that person you're dealing with no longer need it is something that you know we've we've tried to solve that you know so that you can really take control of of your information.

29:38 >> I can tell you exactly like that process of going digital a lot of these companies are trying to do that still but they just don't it takes manpower to do that you know on the office side. So, you're right. Like I I was part of that group that took these documents from filing cabinets, scanned them all by hand into an electronic system, built out a CRM. We're using Salesforce to build out, you know, build out your CRM to store all of this stuff digitally, but still like is it getting is it getting shredded or is it just going back in that >> the access process? Like I mean, >> and then who is actually managing that?

30:18 Like it's just of a group of people in an office >> that you know like >> it's like you should have a data security expert dealing with it. They could choose to do whatever they want with that info. They have access to all the filing cabinets. I it it is exactly like you said that's like that's the best case. >> Oh yeah. It's like Medusa's box. >> Yeah. >> That that's kind of the top down bottom up thing again and it keeps coming up and that was part of our big lesson and why we've taken longer to get to the states is because we we realized that >> in New Zealand the the workers credentials are really managed on their behalf by their employers. and the contracting base is not as large in New Zealand, right? You tend to stay with an employer for a much longer period of time. So they can have big IT projects where they scan lots of paper documents in because it's valuable to them. Here you know the bottom up really speaks to like all of this all of this data sits with workers, right? It's in their trucks. It's it's with them when they go on storm and then they take it home with them. So that's why we had to provide >> an app as part of the whole ecosystem that really lets workers enter that information themselves. And that's quite interesting. I don't know of many tech products that have done that. but now that it's here, it's really cool and it's really exciting. And the last thing I think that's really important about that is there's lots of trade-offs with paper, right? Like paper is in the truck and if you go into a storm, you have no idea if there's cell phone reception, you know? So, in New Zealand, the answer was sometimes plastic cards. We still issue plastic cards to people so that if they don't want to use their phone, they can use that. Here, you know, for the the mobile app in particular, it's all offline. Like that's really important. So we have worked with Alex to to listen to practicalities around that because in a storm sure it's great if it's all internet connected people a lot of people are skeptical about digital for that reason.

32:06 >> Oh yeah they're they're afraid it'll fail when you need it and it's like >> this is done >> because it often does. >> Yeah it's going to it's going to fall to your level of preparedness >> and that's where I think Junction shines because it's like if I prepare for a job it doesn't matter where that job is. I'm prepared for a job. And if that job is over here, over there, if I can move with my credentials with confidence, I can go anywhere and get a job. And the contractors can then also hire me with confidence and that makes me more competitive, easier for me to get a job.

32:38 And that's like the carrot for the workforce. They're like, I >> I want to do that because I can get on faster. >> I don't have to do nine hours of paperwork. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yep. >> Yeah. I love I love that you need a way to use it offline. Just think of like where I live and places I've worked like very rarely five minutes out of town and you're out of cell service, right? Heck, I even ran into that last week in California like right outside of San Francisco.

33:04 >> Down by the just complete dead zone like cell phone wise wouldn't my phone wouldn't work. The hotel had crap Wi-Fi wouldn't like >> Yeah. So, I could see how that would be a massive problem. how does the verifiable credential system integrate with issuing organizations like unions and training providers? So that one is like we have that triangle of trust and it's they have to onboard to basically identify themselves like I am a union I am a a training organization and then they get their own admin portal and then that's how they can then issue these verifiable credentials and that it not only protects the credential out and about it protects their training because if this person's saying I was trained by this person or I was trained by this organ organization and right now if you're just taking their word for it and something happens, they get a bad mark as well as the individual because they're like, "You were trained by this guy and you don't know shit." So like obviously they don't know >> And so this it not only gives protection to the worker themselves, it also gives pro protection to the training authority saying like, "No, we're signing off.

34:21 This is actually somebody we trained." So it's like a the eyes on glass portal is what it's called. >> We have some really exciting things happening with a union which it's a little bit early to talk about but the big part of this trip is about getting that off the ground. So we are obviously working with with what we would call issuers particularly for those high valuable credentials. things like union tickets are obviously like that's the most important thing. If we can get that data digitized in the first instance, that's awesome. In terms of organizational data and other sources of truth, things like mobile drivers licenses, it's because it's all standards based, we can cons consume anything that is built to the verifiable credentials standard. So, we're very platform agnostic as well.

35:03 Similarly, anything that's in Junction can leave Junction later as well. That's really important from a choice perspective. but then, you know, traditional API integration is a is a big part of our solution in New Zealand, isn't it? Well, particularly for >> learning management systems that companies run. we don't want to be another source of truth. We want to to go where the source of truth is and just provide a way for people to present that information with the right backing.

35:28 That's that's really our philosophy. >> Yeah. I was here last year in Birmingham, Alabama and met with Homeland Security around some of the high level credentials they're looking to digit digitize likes of green cards, immigration status, and they're looking to use this exact same verifiable credential standard to essentially issue someone the fact that they do have a visa, they do have immigration status. so that's kind of what's going to happen is these highlevel credentials are going to be the first ones that are digitized. And you see it with like we've talked about before with driver's license. But what we've been able to bring to the table is this ability for you know anyone to take this technology and create verifiable credentials. And you know that's that's really powerful. It's like an out of the box type solution. You don't have to have a tech team. If you're just a mom and pop training organization who trains people on how to, you know, you know, drive a digger or whatever, you can use this technology out of the box to issue anybody a verifiable credential. and you know, that's yeah, that's very unique.

36:35 >> Yeah, that's one of the unique things about Junction is they're not building a walled garden and locking you in. A lot of software providers are like, "Oh, yeah, this is a great like Apple is a prime example. If you use Apple products, that's all you're using." Yeah. It only works with Apple products and Junction is like, "No, no, we we are working with other products. We We're not locking you into a system. We're gonna prove our value year over year."

36:58 And that's like I've never seen another tech company that's doing that. Everyone's trying to wall you off and like lock you in so you can't get away from them. And Junction's like that's that's not our approach, which is super exciting to me. >> Yeah. Silo data is a big problem. you know, like Alex alone, if we look at potentially maybe where his silo data, you know, sits, you know, he's probably got, you know, 10, 20 different environments where the same information exists but just in different places. You know, it shouldn't be like that. There's better ways now to deal with that. And and that's what we're bringing to the table. It's just better ways to deal with it. even the efficiencies, never mind just the protection side of it, but just the the efficiencies and being able to share data that you have.

37:47 >> Yeah, >> I think I'm quite excited as well about it's a lot of these are back office kind of processes, right? So workers have to have a lot of trust that companies are doing the right thing, that their compliance is up to scratch, that the people that they're working with are safe, right? Especially a crew when you're on storm, you might not have ever met some of those people. So in New Zealand, we've had some really cool stories come back about if you have a tool like Junction and workers can scan each other's QR code, right? They can do in the field checks. It's a bit of fun.

38:18 It's a bit nuanced. It's something different, but it actually becomes a really consistent way that they hold each other to account and they hold their managers to account. It's a really cool thing that we've seen people, you know, scanning the site manager's QR code and it I mean it's a lot less awkward than saying, "Can you go to your truck and get me all of your paperwork because I want to put my glasses on and inspect it." so yeah, I think I think that'll be a really cool culture change over time as well.

38:41 >> And like with with linemen, linemen love to brag about where they've been and what they've done and like this allows you to verify like, "Oh, were you on that 500 job?" "Yes, I was. Can you prove it?" "Yes, I can." So it's like >> like a resume. >> Yeah. Like pirates. They used to get tattoos of all the voyages they did. And that was their resume. It's like this. You only get this tattoo if you do this certain activity. And like we can make stickers for or verifiable credentials of you were on this hurricane, you were in this disaster, you were on this project. And like that that's exciting to me just because that's part of the lineman culture.

39:17 >> Yeah. And we talked about like that building a digital resume. That was another important part of like just from someone who used to build proposals for projects like sh again showing the resume, showing the qualifications of your workforce. If we were going to bid a 500 KV transmission project build and we just had a bunch of distribution linemen like and you'd often like, you know, not make up stuff, but you really got to get like they worked on this one transmission job way back here, so they they have the credentials. So yeah, again, but for the lineman side to be able to go, it's almost like it's almost like gamifying it. It's almost like a dual lingo, right? Like now you're going out and you're collecting credentials because you can actually use those for something, right?

40:04 >> And I I always get those comments online when I talk about rums. I used to talk about résumés a lot online. And you get the union lineman like, "I don't need a resume. I just sign the books and I'm a journeyman lineman." Yeah. Well, maybe not anymore, you know, cuz like the world's changing a little bit and you know, it's going to matter more and more, especially as these big large scale transmission projects come on come online again, >> guys are going to want to know if you've done some transmission work because Yeah.

40:35 >> And like on storm like >> did you just hop out today? Yeah. >> Are are you going to be my foreman and you just hopped out? How about we get the guy that's been doing it for 10 years? Let's make him the foreman. like those metrics. You can't do that right now. At least not to any kind of scale. I guess >> you could look at every single ticket and try to, but that's it's not feasible. So, you have these guys showing up >> and they're and nothing against storm linemen, you know, there's a lot of really good storm linemen. There's also a really a lot of really bad storm linemen and they keep they keep showing up over and over again. And this is a system where, like I said, the right way will be the fastest way will be the only way eventually. that's what it turns into.

41:16 >> But what we're seeing in New Zealand too is that it's being used to see where the skills gap, >> you know, is is this this idea that, hey, I can look across my entire organization and see where, you know, I need to upskill some people or even even for little things like expiry dates of things and, you know, pre-qualification. you know, you you talked about it just before. It's being used in New Zealand already to be like, "Hey, this is the crew that I'm going to bring into this job in 3 months time. You guys have got that peace of mind that when these guys do come and do this job, they actually tickle your compliance boxes.

41:53 They've got all these certifications. They're not going to expire while they're working on the job." And, you know, that creates a whole bunch of, you know, >> efficiency. Yeah. reduces a whole bunch of the administrative burden because the last thing you want is guys turning up and for whatever reason they can't work because something expired yesterday and sure it might not only affect them it might affect the whole team that they brought along so it's already been used in some of those scenarios already >> and you get this highle view so like if the industry is lacking on EPZ grounding training just for an example you could you could pull back and see like this whole region is lacking in that maybe we should go there and do a couple classes start getting those back out in the marketplace in that area because then you can diffuse that knowledge throughout the field. But I mean like helicopter search for one of the other ones. It's like you could see this area has a helicopter job coming up and nobody there has any qualifications.

42:46 Maybe we should go there and preload some qualifications so that when the job hits we can man the job. Like that's the that's the type of metrics that start becoming possible. >> We've got an a probably very much like what you guys got. We've got an aging workforce in the energy industry in New Zealand. you know, like there's a whole bunch of skill sets that are just going to die out because, you know, so why not get ahead of the game and actually see where some of those gaps are and actually start to fix the problems.

43:11 >> And then you could you could cherrypick those older individuals and be like, "Hey, I know that you're valuable at your job, but we need you as a trainer. Will you please come and train this area on this skill because you are the expert?" Like all of those metrics become possible and it's a way for the aging workforce to still contribute. Keep contributing beyond swinging a hammer or turning a wrench. >> Yeah. Like keep keep getting nerdy with this like where it could because this is what you guys talk about all the time.

43:37 So like >> get a little bit more in-depth, a little bit more nerdy like you know use Quana's got a workforce of 70,000 people now. you know, if they've got a big transmission project that requires helicopter work like we were talking about or or you know, certain sort of construction or wire, certain sort of wire that they need to work on in one area, they want to know who's trained on that or who's worked on those projects in the past. They how many individuals do they own within the organization still that do that and where they are and I don't know that that that gets super valuable to be able to like pull that info up.

44:13 >> And not only that, you can you can start pre-training these people. we have this big project coming up and maybe this project over here is hitting some slow time. Well, we know they're going to need to work with TS conductor or the carbon fiber core wire. Well, why don't we go ahead and train them on this because we can capture that training and we can just tell them like you don't have to come, but if you want to come over here, this job requires that C that we just gave you. And now you don't have that downtime. you've upskilled the workforce and you've you've captured that value that we can now use on the next project like that that stuff starts becoming very very possible. It's just we have to do the first step and the first step is to be able to track it.

44:55 Nobody's tracking any of this and that just always blows my mind that nobody's watching. >> Like a lot of training providers don't even track how many trainings they've actually completed, right? And where those people go and how successful they are in the industry. So, you're really passionate about trade pathways, e, Alex. Yeah. and particularly for young people, I think, in the trades, it's it can be hard to navigate. Is that right? >> Oh, yeah. Extremely hard because they they don't know what they need and like >> what they need in this environment might be different than what they need over here. So, like one of the pathways into the union would be the union being like, "Here's your checklist. Just start checking box."

45:31 >> You could be a 16-year-old. You sign up. You say, "I would like to go into this trade." And then boom, it just populates. these are the credentials we would like you to have. Get as much as you can and then they could start doing that. And it's simple, it's easy, it's you can navigate it. And then when you go to the hall or whatever trade you decide to go to and you're like, "Look, I would like a job. Here's why you should pick me. I can show you." And that verifiable proof is what everybody's missing. Nobody trusts anybody right now. Everybody's a good talker. AI can make you look like a million bucks in no time. This is a way to actually verify that information, actually have a checked box of how to how to move forward and that and I always get on my little soap box about like this is the next step in the workforce. There's no other path forward. You have to start building these metrics because the economy of trust is completely broken. Nobody trusts anything. I can I can make Donald Trump sing and dance on on video and show you how sprive an old man he is.

46:32 doesn't mean it's true. >> Yeah. >> But my grandma will believe it. And so that's that's the problems that we're running into. >> Yeah. The verifiers themselves have to become experts in determining whether this information is real or not. And if the administrative burden to validate that information is too high, then they're either going to just reject it or they're going to accept it with risk. And that's what it comes down to. >> Talk about how Junction does that too though. like how how do you guys stay on top of making sure the credentials are like verifiable and the information is like solid.

47:08 >> So we have a a red amber green system. It's >> a trust matrix. >> Yeah. It's super intuitive. Red means I put this in myself. You probably shouldn't trust it. You should go check. >> Yellow is somebody else trusted it. Do you trust that somebody else? There's a record of say I'm working for PAR and I uploaded a credential and PAR said we accept this and now I'm working for MJ and MJ goes well I don't trust you but I trust PAR so I will trust this as well and then green is it came from the issuer to me that's cryptographically you could you can bet your life on it that is a true verifiable con credential and so that's like the the super simple easy metric for the layman's terms and now The complicated bit is >> your guys' stuff.

47:56 >> Shall we geek out a bit about VC standards and how that works? >> Yeah, I I like it. >> So So we say verifiable credentials. That's that's a global standard like Dan said. It's driven by W3C, the Worldwide Web Consortium. So very very smart people. we've been in that space for a long time. We've got some incredible engineers who've also contributed to those standards and helped help develop them. But essentially verifiable credentials is a way of proving information particularly over the internet using cryptographic proofs so that it's a package of information that makes a statement about someone something and there's a way that if you trust the issuing authority you can verify the signature and you know it's not being tampered with. That's kind of the problem that VCs are trying to solve. It's the way that a lot of proofs are going to happen about things both in person and virtually in the future. I think where Junction's really special is that we realize that it's going to take 10 years for every single bit of information that you need particularly in the workforce setting to be a true verifiable credential because that nana is going to take every single issuer of every piece of information.

49:05 It's going to take government regulators, utilities, training providers to get in on this ecosystem. But we want to see these benefits now. So what we've done with Junction is we provide really easy pathways in for verifiers to check information that comes as a VC, a true VC from an issuer. Like if a union's on board and they're issuing VCs through Junction, it's a it's a green tick. You know, it's been signed by them and you can prove that.

49:29 You can prove it offline. >> At the same time, workers are going to need to share a whole bunch of information that's going to be paper for for a number of years unfortunately. >> Yeah. So we're using VC standards in creative ways and putting some workflows in place. That's really where our our IP is in junction is that it's a mixed ecosystem, right? Any information you want can go in there. It's just going to have a different level of trust. And we provide companies and individuals ways of assessing that trust and making riskbased decisions. That's that's really the the secret of it. It's it's not a huge secret. It's just it's a sensible approach and it's an approach that's driven by industry as well. I think that's why like us sitting here with Alex I'm really proud of that and the journey that we've been on because there's so many tech companies that don't listen to actual people consumers that are going to use the product and Alex is a huge advocate he's also a real partner in the business I feel like at Junction his stamp is all over the product and >> that's sort of the gist of >> of how we think that trust is going to be handled in the future >> and that that red metric that I was talking about that's where our entire industry is right Nobody can get above a red metric right now as of today. So it's like >> it's wild.

50:37 >> Yeah. >> And the red stuff can be stolen. It's like that. >> Yeah. It's it's even worse and then it's there for them to take. >> Yeah. It's even worse than the red metric. I don't know what's below red, but maybe black. I don't know. Something something down. Whatever down from red would be >> I you just think about where we're at right now. Yeah. and just look at these problems. Like people I love it when people say there's no more problems to solve out there. They're kind of all been solved. It's like just pick an industry, right? Look at something within like who would have thought >> sharing your ID in the power line industry would be such a pro. It's a huge problem right now.

51:15 >> Huge. And people like like I said, everybody's doing it. So right now it's culturally it's just accepted and everyone's like, "Oh yeah, this is fine. This is this is normal." And I'm like, "It shouldn't be. This is wrong. You guys just don't realize it's wrong because it's always been wrong. It's like like when football players didn't wear helmets and nobody wore a helmet. Why would you wear a helmet? Now imagine going to the NFL and trying to explain to them, I'm not going to wear a helmet.

51:40 I don't want a face mask, nothing. Just maybe this leather cap. Everyone would be like, you're out of your mind. Get out of here. And that's what Junction's turning into. It's it's the digital protective equipment for a digital society. Without it, like it's a wild west. you're gonna get everything stolen. >> I think one of the other interesting areas that maybe you could talk talk through a bit, Alex, that we we didn't even I mean it's not a thing in New Zealand, but the the data flows back from workers as well, right? Because it's not just an employment relationship, >> right?

52:10 >> It's things like earnings information that goes back to a union. There's a ton of reconciliation and stuff there that people would look at at a high level and say that'll never get integrated because people will never agree to build API integrations or >> share data in any other way. That's never going to happen. but actually kind of workers are the pivot of all of this information, right? It's actually everyone's talking about them and sharing information around them.

52:31 >> So with a tool like Junction for instance, sure you could use it to get on to jobs. What we want to do is facilitate, hey, like your W2s that come back, you should then be able to share that back to your union so that they can do the reconciliation. So you you're very excited about that. >> Yeah. So that that's one of the features that like I'm super pumped about. I've actually had some benefits not get paid, but it's like your retirement gets paid sometimes once every quarter. Your your health and welfare or LCO hours, they get reported willy-nilly seems like, but it's like these companies and actually I was at a I was at a contract negotiation and the halls said they worked a million man hours and the contractors all said, "No, we only worked 700 hours." I was like, "That is a huge difference." And then I and I raised my hand. I was like, "So, what did you get for working dues?" And they're like, "What?" I was like, "That should match. If it doesn't match, they either underpaid you or you guys got under reportported, one of the two, but you should know this data." And everyone just kind of looked at me like I was crazy. And I was like, "This is this is another fe haha another feature." And it's like if you issue the weekly payubs to the individual and it just says, you know, you worked out of this hall and this is the hall's contract. This is how much money this contractor owes in working dues to the union hall in benefits to this individual. And you can track all that. And that's for Stormwork. That's like the that's going to be the gold standard because so many storm companies right now they're getting blacklisted if they don't pay benefits. Well, the ones that are paying benefits are like desperate to figure out a way to prove like I paid your benefits. It's not me. They're sitting at the hall and the hall hasn't distributed them yet or they're they've been distributed but like they haven't shown up on yours for whatever reason but I paid them and there's no way for them to prove that. So it doesn't matter what you do. It only matters what you can prove and this is a path for them to prove and that's >> that that's good for the union, that's good for the individual and it's good for the company. Like that's huge.

54:40 >> There's no way you can not want that type of system. The only way you wouldn't want that type of system is if you're scamming the system. So it's like >> perfectly only losers in this. >> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a real win-win which is quite exciting. >> What are some other like what are some other big wins for companies? like big ones, like ones that you would go to the table and be like, you're immediately saving lots of money.

55:05 >> So, and it's it's different depending on which company it is. So, if it's a storm company, you're immediately getting clarity on who's coming, what they're qualified for, can they be cleared on insurance, can they drive your truck? You have that immediately. And then through Junction, Junction could have them check into your company. So, they can't they can't roster hop. They can't they can't go somewhere else without at least telling you that they're leaving. like we're not going to lock anybody in, but when they sign on to another company, that company takes you off their roster and they don't get dinged for it when they show up the utility because then this is the verified roster. So that's like the immediate value for storm companies for like what they call blue sky work where it's just normal work. It's that new hire process. So every single project has on average nine hours of downtime per employee. What can you do with nine more productive hours for everybody on the job? And that's not that that includes your churn. So like three new guys show up. Well, they're they're here today, but they're not useful today. We can't use them on anything. We don't even know what they can be used on. And then three days later, you find out, oh, this guy actually can't drive anything because he's he's had too many DUIs or whatever the case may be. Or one guy's not even a citizen. He we had to send him packing after he worked here for three days and we figured out he's not actually allowed to work in the United States. That's happened a couple times. But it's like those things would just not be possible.

56:30 So like like I said, the reward for doing the right thing would be the easy thing for you to do. And that that can't be overstated enough is like we need to build the system to reward what we want because that's how you get more of what you want. >> Yeah. I think one thing too like benefits for let's say organizations and and companies included but it's owning that credential catalog of credentials that you issue and let's take something like license building you know if if I'm the register for license builders and I'm issuing verifiable credentials to all of those individuals who are license builders I have the ability to revoke >> oh yeah >> those credentials as well so if Ryan gets struck off the register for some dodgy work that he did last week. Well, I can actually revoke that instantaneously from you. So, if you're out in the marketplace trying to portray that you still have that credential because no one physically came and t took that plastic identification away from you, there's no way you can because I've revoked it digitally. I'm in control of that. So, I think that's something that's real, really powerful for organizations, too. You issue training, someone's had some unsafe work practices. Cool. Let's revoke it and make them go and sit that training again. I think that's going to be huge for the union hall because the union they they have a list of like a blackball list of guys that are not supposed to be working. They just like email it out to all the halls. It's a spreadsheet and it's like all it takes is for them to get missed on one storm call and they're back working and it's like you could just close the loophole.

58:03 So, it's not possible. >> I just think it as well like it's ultimately going to be a competitive advantage for getting manpower, right? Oh, yeah. if you can respond to a storm call out and just push a button in an app and all your information is gone and it's all you know because you created it >> versus no I need you to email it to me >> y >> and get all the documents together I think yeah obviously guys are going to take take the job that's the push of a button right >> and you have access to those guys >> so like right now the biggest hurdle in Stormwork is the network because like I said there's no bat signal to call anybody if the union Paul were to embrace this type of system, you could build a bat signal where it's like storm blast and everybody currently not working would get a bump saying would you like to come to work? Here's the conditions.

58:49 >> Interesting. >> And so it's like we have the ability to build those things, >> but we have to start with the app first. >> And then you were saying as well like you could verify you could have a list of verified companies in the app as well, right? So you as the worker could almost like >> choose from the list. >> Yep. I like these guys. I want to go work for them. They're close to my house. I'll take that one.

59:15 >> Yeah. It's going to be >> Do you want to talk about that a little bit more? That that verified company list of of what we approach we're taking there. >> Yes. Well, companies can can use Junction can become verified companies as well. relatively straightforward process essentially that allows you to be listed in the app as a sharing contact. So anyone can share credentials with you. That might be for employment, might be training providers, you can issue out credentials as well. that is a really low friction sort of process and we want it to be easy and we're really interested to hear from companies that want to be part of this from day one. the bigger that list the better.

59:54 and so you know that's that's a key ask I guess going into this this kind of general availability and go live for us is if there's forward thinking companies out there that want to be part of this please reach out to us. >> Yeah it comes down to trust again you know like we want people who are using our tool especially when they're sharing credentials to have that trust that that that company is a verified company. you know, we've gone through some sort of process to make sure that, you know, it is actually quer you're sharing it with. You know, it's not just someone claiming to be to be quer and and you have peace of mind that if that company is on a verified list of companies that you can share with, you know, you have that peace of mind.

60:35 >> And we wanted to make sure that was like low friction for the company because I know linemen. When linemen have this available, they're going to be like, "No, I'm not going to fill out your paperwork. go get go do this so that I don't have to. And the company's gonna be like, "What is this?" Oh, okay. And then they do it and it's like, "Oh, that was easy." And then boom, all their stuff comes in. And like linemen are hard-headed and they want to do what they want to do. And so it's like, "Why don't we just make it easier for them to do what they want to do? Why are we fighting them?"

61:04 >> I remember trying to track down because again, I was part of this group. I'd try to track down credentials from linemen. you'd get like, oh my god, like some some of the that you get like crumpled up burst cert like whatever and it would come in in pieces and chunks. One would come from a text message. One would come from their wife's email address or something like I'll get or I'll get my wife to send that to you and it goes like it was a nightmare just trying to like So yeah, I totally get it.

61:32 >> Yeah, even if you make a mistake on your new hire, they then have to so the GF scans it into the system, then the system catches that it's a mistake. So then he comes back and the secretary calls the GF. The GF comes out to the crew. Hey, we need you to sign this again. Okay, now I'll take it back and scan it in and do this. It's like this is just it's a bad system.

61:52 >> Yeah. >> Or even when you upskill yourself. Yeah. >> You know that that instantaneous ability to be able to, you know, share that that new skill training you've got with that organization. Like it's just just makes it so >> I was on a storm once where they were helicoptering the whole crew and they certed them all and then they're like we can't get your C to you until tomorrow and you can't do this until you have the C on you. It's like so what are we doing with the rest of the day? Stand by. And we just waited an entire day for the C to show up and then they wound up not even using it because they got a different plan. It's like >> they got a different plan because they were all just sitting there like we got to do something. We've done some really cool stuff in that space and and it's that instant issuance of credentials and it might be something as simple as a site induction. You know, that ability that cool I can give you this credential right now on the spot. You know, I'm going to take you on this induction. I'm going to show you where the emergency exits are, but at the end of it, bring out your wallet and with the, you know, the tech that we've built into our platform is cool. I've got access to a credential catalog that I'm authorized to issue to people. So, here is that side induction. I can give it to you instantaneously. Now, you can go and use it straight away. So you're not waiting, you know, again, I I'll refer to some of the, you know, instances in New Zealand where not waiting two weeks for that, you know, for that paper to get to me or that PDF to get to me. I can actually use this right here and now.

63:13 >> And that's what's so exciting about Junction is like it's not vaporware. This isn't like it would be nice to have. It's like no, this is running an entire country. You guys just need to update your system to this one because it's we've proven it works. It's running the whole thing. >> Yeah. So, it's like every other I I don't want to say solution, but everybody else who's trying to solve the problems that we've solved is starting right now, year one. They've been doing this for 20 years. Why would you go with anybody else? This is the leading world expert. And that's what's so awesome about Junction.

63:47 >> What other industries does this work within? Just to expand upon like zoom out another layer. Well, can I can I start this because like >> we see it already in New Zealand, you know, like >> the workforce that are working in New Zealand. They're not just, you know, guys who are working for energy companies. You know, they're the scaffolders who come and scaffold up the generation site for, you know, the six weeks that they're closing it down for cleaning and maintenance. You know, it's the builder who comes in, the plumber who comes in. These guys are already using this tool in this industry in New Zealand. So it's any industry you know it's any industry where you need to prove who you are what skills training qualifications you have licenses you know it's it's any industry it's healthcare you know it's >> you just branched out to firefighters >> yeah so we're starting to forestry like yeah there's >> I don't know if you even mentioned MIQ since we started recording no we haven't yeah so that's a that's a thread to talk about is for sure >> I I think just quickly though there's really cool conversations that we're having as well about we talked about pathways before in the trades.

64:54 >> It's about recognizing that once alignment always alignment but some people move in and out of different different industries as well and we see really exciting opportunities with things like veterans for instance moving into the workforce. There's so much knowledge and training that goes on in in their lives for instance and if you can credentialize some of this it's totally transferable to different industries and a lot of the time it's about trying to match up skills to specific qualifications.

65:19 >> That's one of the hardest parts because like if you say you're an E4 everybody in the military knows what an E4 is. Everybody outside the military is like we have no idea what that means. >> And so it's like you could have verifiable credentials saying like I manage people. I manage equipment. I can manage multi-million dollar companies. I have led a fire team. Like all of those type of credentials are very valuable. But if you're in the military, you don't know how to translate those to the outside world. And this is a path to do that. And it's it's a secure path that people can trust. And I keep going back to it, but it's like the economy of trust is broken. And we're just trying to fix that.

65:57 could be a really good opportunity as well for like subcontractors, you know, like a company like this one would hire multiple different subcontractors. Like you said, it's like well it's a way to verify your subcontractors as well. Like >> we use this system. We need to know like how do you certified to do this thing that you're saying you're going to do for us like >> run back or test or whatever you're doing. >> I want to make sure you have insurance all the things too. Well, look, in New Zealand, the, you know, the the generation companies are actually writing it into their contracts with their subcontractors that say, "Hey, this is a tool that you have to use if you want to come and work for us because it gives us peace of mind that you are who you say you are, and you've got the right skills, training, and qualifications to come and do the work that we've hired you for."

66:41 >> And it's as simple as I built this rule set. This is the rule set for entry. If you don't pass the rule set, you don't get on board. And so then I don't really have to I don't have to store any of your personal identified information. I don't need to see any of these credentials. The system says if you don't have these credentials, you can't be here. So you being here and scanned in is the proof you belong here. And that's where it's like, like I said, the right way becomes the easiest and fastest way.

67:07 >> And in Australia, we're doing some cool stuff with with schools as well, right? So looking at high schools. >> >> yeah, I mean there's no reason people can't start that journey early, right? And then the >> high school transcripts, all kinds of stuff. >> Yeah. testimonials from high school. That's one of the most I thinking back to mine, but it's one of the most sort of vacuous documents that you have. It's very high level, but imagine if you could credentialize a lot of those those learnings and have them with you. I think give employers a lot more creative ways maybe to look at >> Well, and like even for applying for colleges, it's like >> they charge you for that because they're like, "We have to check all this stuff."

67:45 What if they didn't have to check it? now. Oh, you're applying for college. You make all the demographics. You meet the GPA we require. You meet every aspect we we wanted. I don't need to have you pay to get rejected. I'll just if you're not going to get it, you're not going to get it. And it would just it would quickly vet those high school students. And then those high school students don't have to keep paying for sealed transcripts. Like my wife had to get a job at she's now a school counselor. She had to pay for like three different versions of her sealed transcripts. And I'm like, "You've already paid for it once. It's your data. Why do we have to pay for it again?" "Well, it's got to be sealed."

68:23 That's a stupid system. So, like, there's another thing I need to fix. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. No kidding, right? Geez. Yeah. Super cool, man. >> Yeah. You start start applying it and start looking at it and you're just like, why is society like this? Who decided this? Well, it just gets it just like like you were saying before on last episode, sitting by yourself in a hotel room thinking of different ways this could be used. And you Dan talked about like potentially becoming like a marketplace, you know, like each person having a profile, building a resume, you know, whatever. But I was just thinking here too like it could be a way for for companies and organizations to push like like push like jobs that potentially could be available to people that don't know that that job exists because they have these certifications like you said like certifications like whatever. you've you've got these certifications, but you don't even know that this job exists in this industry, >> but you know, they could push out a notification saying, "Hey, if you got these credentials out there, >> and you know, you do, and it just pings you because you do." And all a sudden, wow, I never thought about a job over in this industry. Like, I don't know, just that kind of >> and it's hard not to talk about those those what's possible. But what the cool thing is is that the foundation around verifiable credentials makes it totally possible. 100% makes it totally possible. So that's that's the cool thing is look, >> you know, we've got a a road map of features, you know, that, you know, long into the future and, you know, it's so exciting.

70:01 >> You're five years, you know, >> I always live about 10 years in the future. >> I want to do a safety chargeback model that I'm super excited about that. And I saw that that kind of came to fruition through like the dirty word NFTts, you know. So people use that for art. It's like you sold this art, payment goes back to the original creator of the art. What if you did that for safety? So now the like take Quana for example. They trained me in barehandert. Well, I left Quana and now I'm working for this company over here.

70:33 This company is using Quanaert. What if they paid back a small portion, nothing crazy, but enough to make the training worth it? You can relieve that bottleneck of training and you can you can upskill the workforce massively. And the safety department now has a revenue source because right now the safety department, they have to justify everything they spend. And the better safety does, the less it looks like you need them. It's like the better they are at their job, there's no accidents.

71:02 why we why are we putting so much money in safety? Let's cut back that budget a little bit. then you have an accident. This would be like safety's doing all this training. Safety's upskilling the workforce. They're doing this. They're doing this. All these guys are leaving. They're getting poached by other companies. But that value is flowing back to the safe the original safety department. And it's like, does that feature exist now? No. But once you start doing verifiable credentials, it becomes possible. And it's like that's the path forward. Nothing else. there's no other path you could do forward because in if you can't make money at it, it's not going to happen, especially in America. And so that's how you can make safety a profitable venture. And then then you can have a competition for who can train the most people. That sounds like a good competition to have in the workforce.

71:50 >> Love it. >> What can be done right now? What can trades people or contractors do right now? Start using the app, pilot it, whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Go go go go go go to the app store and download the junction app and upload yeah start building your credentials out in your wallet and >> yeah start >> how many do you have currently >> using >> using Junction in in New Zealand or >> America >> America so at the moment we've been running a pilot out of Michigan with a bunch of linemen contracting company we've got one of the local unions involved in that as well. but we're really kind of trying to make a push for the individuals to take charge of this and and almost be a tool for the workforce. so yeah, available on the app store, go and download it. let's >> we're kind of throwing caution to the wind more, aren't we? Because the pilot was was really successful, right?

72:51 >> Everybody was pretty key on that. So, we we figure let's just go for general availability. Let's just put it out there. We figure if we get the workforce on board first and we show them the value and the reason that they should use it, the contracting companies will then say, "Oh, you have a bunch of data. We need a bunch of data." And then they'll show up. So, the best thing we can do is just have more people download the app, start using the app. Even if you're not in the electrical industry, maybe you're a high schooler and you just want to save assignments for whatever reason, you can do that as well. So like it anybody in any industry can start downloading it and start demanding better digital sovereignty.

73:29 So like you have YouTube and Spotify, they want you to upload your ID now. You could tell them no, you can use Junction. I'll upload my ID there because you can't trust Google, Microsoft, any of these big box companies. They've literally gotten rich stealing data and selling it. So it's like they're not going to bring you a solution you want. They'll have us a solution, but it's not going to be for you. It's going to be for them. Junction is the only company that's like, "We're not sharing your data. We're not profiting off of sharing your data.

74:00 We're profiting off of making sure that we are telling the truth." And that's it. That's the only profit margin we have. And so that trust is sacred. It's the only thing that keeps the company afloat. Anything else would tank. So like I want somebody in the same boat with me and my data. >> Yeah. We don't sell any data. We don't have any advertisers on the platform. We're not about that. >> I love that. >> Yeah.

74:27 >> What did we not touch on? >> Probably the work we did across government. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So we were approached back during the pandemic in New Zealand and look crazy time worldwide. in New Zealand we shut our borders and only people were allowed back into New Zealand were New Zealanders. they had to go into two weeks of managed isolation and quarantine before they were allowed back into their communities. but what that meant was regardless of how you think about that time in this world, those environments those individuals and the workers and those individuals were working in were highly compliant environments. it was a great use case for our technology. so we you know stepped up to help government with our technology because of how it had been being used in the in the energy industry. the government said hey look this is something that we could utilize in these environments. so we empowered 17 and a half thousand individuals across 650 different companies working across 32 different environments with some really cool tech some really impactful stuff that happened for these guys with just you know some really subtle things like getting onto shift faster you know so our defense force were you know the gatekeepers of all of these environments so we had about 5,000 of the defense force using our product to validate these individuals as they were coming in to make sure they had the right credentials. And you we're talking about some health credentials, some health and safety credentials, and some site induction credentials. but what they were able to do was reduce the amount of time that it took them to actually get on site to start working. So what was taking minutes for these individuals to turn up before junction came to solve these problems we were able to reduce to seconds as soon as we implemented.

76:28 So you know that idea that you know that green compliance tick could be verified to the individual who was you know making sure these individuals met the criteria. but then the whole digital audit trail went behind that. So we had something we coined an eyes on glass and essentially what it was was an ability for the authority who was in charge of these environments to have an overview of well who's actually on site in these environments right now and did they meet the compliance requirements we needed them to have before they came here. some really cool tech for the individuals themselves to validate themselves before they even got to those locations as well. last thing that the authority wanted was people turning up potentially being non-compliant.

77:15 so we gave the ability for these individuals to actually validate themselves against that location before they even left home. >> So you know that saved a whole bunch of time administrative burden. and on administrative burden there was a team of individuals whose job it was to validate this data on a daily basis and report this data back to other authorities for compliance reasons. we were able to reduce that team of 12 people to two you know literally literally overnight.

77:46 >> That's massive. >> As well as take away that whole burden of those 650 different companies were having to upload time sheets for all their staff for compliance reasons. >> That whole spin up took two weeks. So 600 PE or 600 companies, 1700 people, two weeks. >> Yeah, >> it's a massive. >> We were able to do it do it really fast. yeah and look and we had you know some really really positive feedback around that particular project which led to further conversations within you know organizations like our defense force and so you know we were dealing with some pretty you know big organizations in New Zealand to deliver that project you know defense police health >> you know we were pulling credentials from some you know pretty important you know we call them points of truth and not double handling that information, but just saying, "Hey, look, this is the source of truth.

78:42 we're going to create a verifiable credential out of that. We're going to give it to this individual here." And yeah, there was a >> it's a real testimony to like to building trust, right? >> Yeah. >> Like you you've really begun to build trust and you know, especially when you take into consideration like organizations like that and taking documents and information like that and being able to be trusted with it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We're really, one thing we're really proud of is we punch well above our weight. You know, we're I say we're a small company but you know, we're we're a team of experts in this space. We're not just, you know, theorizing how this stuff's going to work. We've actually been on the ground testing it, you know, for a number of years to make sure that it does do what we say it does. And you know like Ben alluded to we've had you know some people within our team who have been working globally you know with some of these providers to make sure it's the right way to do things. And you know we've dealt with some pretty heavyhitting you know organizations in New Zealand and had that tick of you know this is a legitimate company doing some really cool stuff and you advisers for Microsoft.

79:46 >> We're super super proud of you know some of that stuff. So, we're not just a company coming into America, you know, hoping to, you know, make it rich. We're actually, you know, a team of experts who specialize in this, and this is our bread and butter. >> I I I think what's really cool now and like barriers are kind of beginning to be broken is in the understanding that the size of your organization does not shouldn't mean anything anymore. like you're it's probably not too far off where you're going to see the >> the two person company like billion dollar company >> very shortly you know >> you know one person that does like outgoing sales and the next person that just directs AI >> you know it's just >> like weaponized autism >> 100% >> 100% one yes >> I think when >> such a good way to put it I love it >> I think when Instagram sold you know they were a 20 person company and you know that's the size of us right now you know like so >> well and that's the thing this is this is a new industry that nobody has nobody's trying to be in this space nobody knows that this is the next thing it's like this is social media before people believed in it this is Netflix before people believed in it and it's like what why are you doing this it's like look at all these problems I can solve look at all these things and the industry is right now waking up to the fact that these These are real problems. Like AI is making fakes easy at an industrial level by somebody who does not know how to make anything. I can just tell Chat GBT, spin me up a fake CPR card. It's easier to do that than it is to be compliant.

81:27 >> Yeah, >> that's a huge problem. And so everybody's starting to reach for a solution and it's like, well, just tell me what's important to you and I'll tell you how this fits. And it not only helps you, it helps everybody above and below you. And it's good for society and it's good for the environment. It's like which one of these boxes means enough to you to get you across the line. >> It's very short, guys. You guys are going to take off very soon.

81:56 anything else before we close? >> No. Anything you can think? >> I'm just super happy that you let me come on the show. I'm like a kid in a can. >> Yeah. Second time. >> I love this. Thank thank you guys for doing this. Thank you for what you're doing. >> This is one of the best things that happened to the industry because it's like you and I'm going to go off on a tangent a little bit, but like you broach subjects and go out of the box and show people like you don't have to just be alignment. You can be other things. You can pursue a passion. You can go outside and you know like this is a tech company. Linemen don't do tech stuff.

82:30 >> Yeah. >> And I'm sitting with the worldleading experts in verifiable credentials. If you would have told me that when I was in high school, I'd have been like, "Of course I'm going to do something in tech." And they'd be like, "But you're going to be a lineman first." I'd be like, "What? I'm going to do what now?" Like that's >> sounds like a hard pathway to get paid. >> Yeah. Exactly. It's like that's a weird way to go. And like as a lineman, you're now a podcaster, one of the one of the top podcasters in the store. So, it's like you don't have to be limited by where you start or where you're going.

82:59 Like you can go anywhere. Just pursue your passions. >> Dream big. >> Yeah. Dream. And thank you for giving us this platform like you know like >> wow quanta you know like here we are in Quanta HQ from Wellington New Zealand you know like thank you for giving us this platform to talk about what we do and thanks for supporting us too. >> Yeah I think Quanta employs more people than live in your country. >> Don't fake check that but honestly guys like that is what Quanta is all about.

83:30 It's about like it's about this. It's about this right here. It's about having an idea, wanting to take action on the idea against all odds, just taking action on it and working towards something. And that's what it's about. So, why wouldn't you know, why wouldn't we? I that's literally why I'm here, you know? I was told no so many times. I was told that this would never work so many times. I was laughing out of >> you kept doing it. Yeah. Just keep keep doing it. Obviously you guys are, but >> that's the advice to anybody listening too though is like >> just keep doing it. If you've got something that you want to do, just go do it.

84:11 >> You got to have thick skin. You got to take the ridicule. Once you're successful, everyone will jump on board >> and fail. >> You said on your last episode, ask why, right? Just because something's the way it's always been done, don't accept that. >> Nope. Always ask why. And that why might lead you to your passion. That's that's how I got here. >> You know, honestly, that's what I really love about Gen Z, and I'm sure Alpha will be the same way, is >> is they go they they just don't believe what's thrown at them. Like, how many of the guys that trained us >> would say that was like, who knows?

84:46 It wasn't verifiable, right? Like, they just say stuff and you'd be like, okay, I don't know. I guess that's the way to do it. But now guys go, no, Like, no, I'm going to. and they just go take a photo of it. >> Well, actually chat says this. The guy's like, "That's not the way we talk." Well, >> it's maybe your way is dumb. >> Call you out on your >> I love that they call people out.

85:10 >> With a one-year-old, she questions everything. Every single drawer that you close, why do we close that? It's just >> And that questioning mentality was like it was almost beat out of people in the older generation. >> Don't ask me why. Just do what you're told. And like >> because it was beat up. >> Yeah. And I I got into the trade right as that was starting to die off. But I still I got a lot of that, but I was the youngest brother. I was very resilient to that.

85:37 >> They would throw you in the bin on the bucket and close the bin door and exactly you wouldn't get out of it. >> You got to get Rob on here. Alex's brother. I think the two of them. That would be a show >> he came down last time. >> He was here last time. >> He wasn't on the show, but >> All right, guys. Well, I appreciate you. We're at the sub. Thanks for listening, guys.

85:54 >> This content is completely free. All right. The only thing I'm asking you for is to hit that subscribe button. And I know it's cheesy. I know it's corny. I know every YouTuber asks you to hit that button and you're probably sick and tired of it. But if you like the show and you want to see the show grow, this is the way I prove to the people in charge that it's worth investing in. So, it's pretty simple and it's the price you can pay for me. It's no money. It's just a subscribe. Please hit the subscribe and I appreciate the hacky for it.