Apple vs OpenAI, Mustard Controversy, Mark Gurman, Alexis Ohanian, & Morgan Housel Join

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3:57 >> Mark clearing order inbound. Five good I see multiple journalists on the horizon founder You're watching TVPN. Today's Monday, July 13th, 2026. We are live from the TVP Ultra on the Temple of Technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. I like the bell, Ben. That's a good one. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both.

4:49 Easy. Use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. >> Talking about using ramp. The ramp song still going strong. Ramp. >> Excellent edit. We said ramp so many times in the first couple episodes of this show. We turned it into a song. It's on the soundboard now. well, huge news over the weekend. Dropped, Mark German dropped a massive scoop, right after we got off on Friday night, Friday afternoon. Mark German broke the news that Apple is suing OpenAI.

5:19 Apple and Open AAI are going to war. the the Wall Street Journal called it thermonuclear echoed past attacks calling back to the jobs era. We'll get to that, but first the accusations. Apple is suing OpenAI, accusing it of stealing Apple's trade secrets. Apple Inc. sued OpenAI for trade secret theft, accusing the artificial intelligence startup and its hardware chief of engaging in a coordinated campaign to steal information about upcoming products. The iPhone maker said in a suit Friday that OpenAI encouraged Apple employees to share information, components, drawings, and other materials related to upcoming products.

5:57 So like the robot, what are the upcoming products from Apple right now? >> part of the part of efforts by the AI company, the lamp, yeah, smart, the Cobra. >> by the AI company to develop its own suite of devices. I feel like rumors around the devices have gone back and forth. Is it a phone? Is it is it headphones? Is it something else? A pin? we're having Mark German on the show today to break it down for us. he's coming on at 12:45.

6:22 >> The funny thing is I bet German knows more about OpenAI's devices than we do because we specifically >> didn't want to be read in on anything device related because we knew there was going to be so much speculation that we just said like yeah we're going to be in the dark. We'll find out like everyone. So, at the center of the lawsuit is a former Apple employee named Changlu, who left for OpenAI and allegedly kept his Apple laptop for weeks after he left the company, downloaded proprietary Apple files, and encouraged other Apple employees to do the same. Yeah, if that happened, that's a big no no. When you leave a company, you got to leave your device on the day you leave. Usually, I mean, I was remembering back to I mean, we had a very graceful transition to this business from from Founders Fund, but you know, I had like emails from in Founders Fund from like people that went to Hereticon, people that make a good guess, and I was like, I'm not even going to export that. I'm just going to like leave that and I'll reestablish those connections to people, cold email them, find find their information independently. Just don't take any files, leave them with the other standard practice.

7:26 >> Yeah, it is standard practice. you know some people can make mistakes. Also these are just allegations. None of this is confirmed and this lawsuit will be going on for like months if not years. We can go through some of the other historical examples that are sort of interesting to sort of set the the the table on what might play out here. So Apple's filings also spends quite a few words on the fact that OpenAI has poached more than 400 employees from the company in recent years. That's not going to make anyone in Certino happy.

7:54 they hate poaching. There's the famous Steve Jobs Adobe back and forth. Tang Tan left Apple in 2024 to co co-found the AI hardware startup IO with Johnny IV which OpenAI acquired in 2025 as part of its consumer AI device effort. Tan is now OpenAI's chief hardware officer and he's leading the consumer device effort there. In his lawsuit, Apple says TAN systemically solicited sensitive information from Apple employees who were interviewing for roles at OpenAI. A lot of perspective on this flying around the timeline, but Ben Thompson and Ralph Winkler in the Wall Street Journal both had interesting angles here. Winkler, >> wait, they have a Ben Thompson at the Wall Street Journal.

8:34 >> No, no, no. Ben Thompson attempt. Brandon got it correct in that newsletter. had interesting anguh angles here. We can read a little bit of what Ralph said in the journal. He says, "Open Apple's open AI suit echoes past attack. Steve Jobs declared thermonuclear war, which is a great if you're trying to fire up your staff and you're going to battle, even if it's mundane. Even if it's just for like will the next device have 12 gigs of RAM or 32, that's boring. Thermonuclear war is exciting. You got to fire up the the the stats. so he declared Steve Jobs declared thermonuclear war on Google on Google's Android operating system in 2010, calling it a stolen product. Now, his successor is going to battle against Apple's most d new most dangerous rival.

9:24 in one of his last acts as Apple's chief executive before successor John Turnis takes over, Tim Cook fired a missile at OpenAI. In a lawsuit filed Friday, Apple alleged that senior OpenAI executive who once sat a top Apple's own product design team was involved in a monthslong campaign to steal Apple trade secrets. open eyes replied at this point and said, "We have no interest in Apple's trade secrets." But Ralph continues. He says, "Although it isn't clear yet what evidence the company has to back up all of its claims, the suit lands before OpenAI has released a product and as the technology industry races to build artificial intelligence powered devices that can move society beyond the smartphone era. And there's a whole debate to be had for, you know, where that goes and the value of devices in a world where the agents are just kind of off working and you can maybe just text them or send them a message on Telegram. the the the there's a whole debate over what the is is the future of devices more devices and different devices or is it just no devices? but OpenAI has clearly been working on devices as we know from the IO acquisition. and the Wall Street Journal says, "The winner could dominate the future just as Apple's iPhone ruled the consumer market for the last 20 years." quote, "I am not afraid of Apple, but I have tremendous Got to flip to A6.

10:49 Let's see. Tremendous respect for them." OpenAI CEO Sam Alman posted on X Saturday. >> And he said S tier company. >> Yeah. He said, "Oh, that didn't make it into the paper. Maybe the Wall Street Journal readers aren't familiar with the proper tier list. They think S is down at the bottom when in fact it is above A. big tech rivals have long tried to supplant Apple but so far Google, Samsung, Meta Platforms, Microsoft and Amazon.com have all failed. It is crazy.

11:14 People think you know okay Android was successful but captured like onetenth of the actual value because the margins on Android devices are so much lower. But you forget that Jeff Bezos stood on stage and said we're launching the Amazon Firephone and we're going to win. And then Microsoft had the whole Microsoft phone and they were really pushing that. And Facebook Chamoth was at Facebook working on the Facebook phone. >> Sort of a right of passage. >> It is a right of passage. It it it's a it's an ultimate long shot as a as an upand cominging hyperscaler to every it's a right of passage to go and and challenge Apple. Now OpenAI is emerging as a new threat. It has it has built powerful AI models and is working to toward an unspecified family of devices.

11:58 Interesting to hear that to run them devices that could supplant apples. Apple's innovation engine failed to develop hit AI products and features leaving it vulnerable to new entrance. Its suit could be an attempt to throw sand in the gears at OpenAI. I mean, a lawsuit is always a little bit of sand at the very least. Even if everything gets dropped quickly, it can still drag on for at least a year. company observers say this to slow poaching of Apple staffers, for instance. So, this could just slow the the poaching that's happening. Friday lawsuit.

12:26 Friday's lawsuit has echoes of one of Apple's fi of the ones Apple's filed against various Android ecosystem players beginning in 2010. A legal battle royale with hardware makers producing rival phones that played out over eight years. the central allegation then as now was a rival stole Apple's innovations. Apple said Samsung slavishly copied the iPhone with smartphones it was already selling by the millions which Samsung denied. The company settled in 2018 after a long costly battle, eight years. In AI years, that's like a million decades. Wow.

13:02 >> at the center of each case Apple has pursued was a perceived breach of trust. Trust. So, Google's then chief executive, Eric Schmidt, sat on Apple's board as his company developed Android. So, there was like you're you're on the board of Apple saying, "Yeah, we should definitely launch." >> Kind of similar to the Kreger Figma dynamic. >> Yeah. Very very tricky. I'm going to destroy Android because it's a stolen product. Jobs told biographer Walter Isacson. Apple alleges in its new suit that quote, "At every level, OpenAI has been stealing Apple's trade secrets.

13:37 A more junior employee appeared to cross the line by using an Apple employees login to access Apple servers." But Apple has also accused OpenAI's hardware chief, Tang Tan, of soliciting trade secrets from its employees in interviews for jobs and encouraging them to bring quote actual parts from Apple for show and tell sessions at OpenAI. Tan worked at Apple for 24 years, rising to vice president of product design. But bringing parts to an engineering interview isn't unusual, say people familiar with the tech hiring process.

14:07 That was shocking to me. I it does feel unusual to me, but I mean I guess people would bring >> I don't know if if something's public like if you're bringing like if you're if you just went to the app store on a a recent iPhone. >> Yeah. And you're just bringing that and you're like I did the button. You see how it clicks this way? Maybe that's okay. But if it's like actual secret parts, that would be really really bad.

14:30 interviewers want candidates to talk through their work. the question is whether the parts were sensitive, something Apple doesn't offer evidence of and is seeking a is seeking discovery to determine. A spokesperson for OpenAI said, quote, "We have no interest in other companies trade secrets. We re we remain focused on building innovative technology that empowers everyday people everywhere." Tan and a more senior employee, Chang Leu, didn't respond to a request for comment. at Apple, Tan worked very closely with Johnny IV, its famous industrial design chief. I've left Apple to build his own design firm, later poaching tan. Apple OpenAI bought that company, IO products, in 2025 to spearhead its own device development efforts. Bad fellows can quickly become enemies in tech. Open AAI made the IO acquisition, revealing its intention to wean customers off smartphone screens a year after announcing a partnership with Apple to integrate ChachiT into some parts of the iPhone. The Wall Street Journal has a content licensing partnership with OpenAI. Of course, bigger companies have so far failed to dent Apple's dominance. and they talk about Amazon's Fire Phone, Microsoft Windows phone. Mark Zuckerberg also tried to do an end run around the iPhone with the metaverse that never fully disrupted the iPhone. Of course, Elon Musk has also chafed at Apple's control of the digital economy. A unit of SpaceX is suing Apple for disadvantaging its AI app. And the company is now prototyping its own smartphone like AI device. Apple has said that its app store relies on algorithms and expert curation and doesn't suppress rivals. The irony of Apple's case against o open AI is that Apple itself has so frequently been accused of stealing others companies ideas that it has spawned a new verb sherlocking which is a reference to a an app for the Mac that allowed you to hit I think command space and get a finder window to search everything across your entire desktop. that that that thata that eventually became the spotlight feature baked into Apple, but it was not very good for the company that was running Sherlock. And so, Apple, this is the same like, you know, the the labs will steamroll this or this these many companies just got put out of business by this company. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It just sort of depends.

16:41 Apple recently tried to sherlock Particle, but it seems like Particle is doing fine. and so it sort of depends on the actual product. I've not gotten a single Haven't gotten a single invite from Apple's >> true >> invite system. >> At the same time, when was the last time you paid for a flashlight app? Probably never, right? Because all of that stuff's baked in. Apple's trying to catch up. >> I saw someone actually go pretty viral on Instagram with the world's most expensive flashlight app. I think it was like a hundred. It was It was like $5 to turn the light on and then $129 to turn it off.

17:15 >> Mhm. That's great. genius. I like those. I I also like the ones that are like vibe coding a calculator and you type in whatever you want to multiply and then it's like $200 to unlock the answer. It's like easy money. >> Ben Thompson read through the filing as as he as he would. he says you can read Apple's filing here and almost everything you need to know is actually on the first page in the first four paragraphs. Paragraph one is a succinct introduction to the case. This case is about Apple's former employees stealing trade secrets for the benefit of OpenAI. Apple brings this suit to put a stop to it. Paragraph 2 recounts how Apple has spent a lot of time and money building products that delight customers. Paragraph 3 basically says that everything they do is a trade secret. And paragraph 4 introduces Chang Lou and spends the next page and a half recounting his crimes. Ben Thompson says Lou is almost certainly guilty and an idiot to boot. Not mincing words there. Apple has a lot of details about loose behavior, including dozens downloading dozens of proprietary Apple hardware related files and encouraging other Apple employees to do the same because he did it on his Applesued laptop >> and furthermore logged onto Apple servers for weeks after he had already left the company. Ben says Apple security says as depicted in this case is shockingly poor. First, the company lost track of the fact that Lou didn't return one of his laptops or disable it remotely. Second, due to what Apple claimed was a bug, Lou continued to have access to the company's internal servers for weeks.

18:50 and Ben has like a bunch of bunch of other context on here. >> Yeah. they he talks about how you know Tan is is the point person for the 400 people that Apple says that OpenAI has hired away from the smartphone maker. That is no crime of course although one does get the sense Apple sure thinks it is. >> and I'm trying to think if anything >> the funny the funniest moment in here is where he says a couple quick points. A few weeks ago there was a bit of hubbhub about meta capturing keystrokes from employees in order to train AI. What confused me was people's surprise that a company had this level of access to company issued hardware in the first place. Moreover, while that access may very well be theoretical for a lot of companies at Apple, it has always been a well-known fact going at least as far back as when I was an intern there. Ben Thompson was an intern there 16 years ago, that the company could and would go through everything if you ever cross them. And so it's it's yeah, everyone should know this, but somehow it it at least Apple alleges that it was not known or or just a terrible mistake or brazen you know brazen mistake.

20:03 he does he does talk about a little bit of the the the motivations for why you're going to thermonuclear war. He says AI era has sucked for Apple. >> Yeah. So he says Tan is a face of Apple betrayal. Open AI is the face of AI generally, and it's hard to escape the sense that Apple just really hates AI. And why shouldn't they? Go back to 2022. Apple had it all figured out. They had a lock on the premium end of the smartphone market, which they continued to slowly expand, even as they had figured out how to earn services revenue from every iPhone user basically forever. Business was good. AI has ruined all of that. Suddenly, Apple has to make existential decisions about whether or not to compete in the model game. Then they then they totally embarrass themselves with the 2024 new Siri introduction. Had their most prominent blogger declare that something is rotten in the state of Certino. Had to completely overhaul their software and services teams. Lost their position as kings of the supply chain and most favored customer of TSMC to the point where they had to enact an emergency midcycle price rise. And then worst of all have to actually wrestle with the possibility that AI is such a paradigm shift that it might actually threaten the iPhone. And then on top of all that, they lost they lose 400 of their best employees recruit recruited by the lead hardware engineer for the iPhone in partnership with their most famous executive outside of Steve Jobs and have to know that all 400 of those employees are getting hit up by their former colleagues looking for a job as well.

21:25 The AI era has sucked for Apple. Even if they aren't necessarily doomed and even if they relaunch new Siri ends up working out, their position is still more fragile than it was. And everything about life is worse. Given that, how sweet it must feel to suddenly have a smoking gun in the form of a seriously dumb employee blatantly lifting documents and to use it as a cudel to ex exact revenge on the company that represents everything that is making your life miserable. The perspective does make one wonder if that phrase run to its core was projection in the end.

21:57 AI is changing the world and Apple's contribution is to deliver 2-year-old technology differentiated by exclusive access to data it won't share. It certainly has no interest in delivering on a new AIdriven paradigm that endangers its iPhone franchise in any way. Any of its employees who wish to do exactly that, meanwhile, are being told loud and clear that Apple doesn't just think it owns your laptop, but also your mind and knowledge. I think it mostly stinks. But then again, rotten things usually do. So s circling back to something is rotten in thermonuclearino, >> but it's not the first. Go sign up for retrie. Read the whole article. There's a bunch of context. and we're going to come back to the story at 12:45 Pacific >> with the Germinator.

22:44 >> let me tell you about Railway. Railway is an all-in-one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agent to deploy web app servers, databases, and more. While Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, security. it's not the first thermonuclear war between hyperscalers, Mag 7 companies. you go back to Apple versus Microsoft, they had a massive copyright war over the the look and feel of the desktop. So, Apple sued Microsoft and Huelet Packard actually back in 19 what was it 1997 when they reset the relationship saying that Windows 2.03 and Windows 3.0 Oh, and the HP new wave, I don't know what what happened with that, copied the Mac's graphical interface. The courts concluded that the sim similarities were already licensed, functional, standard to graphical user interfaces and otherwise unprotectable.

23:40 In 1994, the Ninth Circuit affirmed that Apple's guey deserved only relatively thin copyright protection against virtually identical copying. Of course, we talked a little bit about the Android proxy patent war between Apple and Google. Apple rarely attacked Google head-on. Instead, it sued the manufacturers that were distributing Android. So, HTC, Samsung, Motorola over smartphone design, smart software patents. There was a whole era where you would see Apple launch something and then and then Samsung, Motorola, HTC would sort of conform to that norm. and how much of that is just the standard industry practice, what consumers want, and how much of it is a direct infringement. In 2014, they agreed to dismiss all of their direct smartphone patent cases without entering a c comprehensive cross license. but the broader war continued through Apple's 7-year Samsung battle. In 2018, the jury awarded Apple a $539 million damage in a retrial after which Apple and Samsung reached an undisclosed settlement. So Apple won meaningful verdicts and established that industry design could carry real patent value.

24:51 Amazon and Apple Apple and Amazon have also gone at it over ebook pricing conspiracy aimed at Amazon. This was in 2009. Amazon had established $9.99 as the highly visible price for many new Kindle bestsellers. As Apple prepared the iPad and the iBookstore, it arranged agency agreements under which publishers rather than retailers set consumer prices. The Justice Department proved that Apple could help coordinate publishers to eliminate retail price competition and raise ebook prices above Amazon's $9.99 standard. And so, Amazon won this one. Apple briefly changed the economics of the market, but lost the antitrust case. Of course, there's Apple app tracking transparency.

25:32 Apple versus Meta, another thermonuclear war, not fully played out in the courts, but it did create basically a $10 billion revenue headwind for Meta in the short term, which they ultimately overcame. there's a whole bunch of others. The the two the two MAG7 participants who have never really fought Microsoft and Meta have never really had a company level feud. Microsoft and Tesla also have never really had a corporate battle. Tesla sort of stays out a lot of of a lot of this because they're not in as many of the same markets. of course, the the big one that people are pointing to these days is Uber versus Google.

26:11 where is this? so this is the most dramatic corporate espionage style case in modern technology. Anthony Lewendowski, he was a central engineer in Google's self-driving car program. And as he prepared to leave, he downloaded thousands of confidential files. That's a huge no no. he founded an autonomous truck startup auto which Uber then acquired bringing Leandowski and his team inside Uber's autonomous vehicle organization. Whimo alleged that Uber had obtained and was using its LAR and autonomous driving trade secrets. The case expo exposed internal Uber communications, raised questions about what then CEO Travis Kalanick knew and threatened to derail Uber's already expensive autonomy program. days into the February 2018 trial, Uber settled. Whimo received 0.34% of Uber's equity, which was worth $245 million at the time. It's actually worth more now. I don't know if Whimo held on to that, but sort of a financial civil settlement. and interestingly, Uber promised not to incorporate Whimo's confidential information into its systems. So, they agreed, hey, like we might have seen some of that confidential trade secret information from that company that we acquired. we won't use any of that. And it feels like that sort of derailed Uber's self-driving program pretty substantially because you're always walking on eggshells. And then there's probably things that you could have potentially independently discovered.

27:35 But if you know that Whimo has independently discovered them separately, you can't use it. And so there's all these different techniques and tricks that then are off limits even if they are just best practices that you can principles. Exactly. Yeah. So very tricky situation and Leandowski. So there were actually two two suits in the Uber Whimo battle. there was the civil suit which settled of course as I mentioned, but Leavenowski separately plead guilty to trade secret theft in a criminal trial. The Justice Department said he admitted downloading thousands of Google files with the intention of benefiting himself and Uber. he was sentenced to 18 months in prison fined and ordered to pay restitution, but he was pardoned before he actually entered prison. And then I believe he started a religion. I think he was starting like an AI church which was way ahead of the curve because it feels like people are like in AI psychosis as of like 2024 and he sort of had it back in 2021 2022. He was like leading to this idea that like AI was God.

28:37 >> It was 2017 way of the future. >> Way of the future. That is crazy crazy. so Uber eventually sold the Advanced Technologies Group, which was their self-driving unit, to Aurora in 2020. and it valued that unit at $4 billion. So like pretty substantial progress for something that was sort of beaten up. and there were a few different reasons. The Whimo litigation cost, technical difficulty, and then there was this fatal 2018 Uber autonomous vehicle crash that really made it difficult for them. And Uber has sort of shifted their strategy now.

29:12 They're much more of like this platform and they want and they don't want to develop cars internally cyber cab and Whimo and all the different >> there was recent reporting that Uber's like actually trying to block the roll out of self-driving cars in some markets and there's a whole bunch of interesting stories about >> Oh, I didn't know Uber was >> potentially. It was it was one tweet I saw. I think it's in the timeline somewhere. We can get to it at some point. But >> what's going on with Paramount? Let's >> And remember, we're gonna come back to this with Mark German himself, who broke the actual story >> on Friday. So, we'll have another 30 minutes to talk about this story.

29:48 >> We will. but first, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market, your business on MongoDB? Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it. >> Rohan in Semaphore says, "Paramount Ways leaving California over Warner Brothers Rift." What's going on here, John? >> so this is on the basis that California is trying to block the Paramount the Paramount acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery. Rohan says, "I'm told that if the states do choose to sue, they would have to assume the damages stemming from that action chiefly 600 million to 1 billion 1.2 billion in ticking fees would potentially be paid out to state state taxpayers. So if if they leave those those fees would not be paid to the state. Paramount just issued this response to the state AG lawsuit. Brian Stelter is breaking it down. saying the complaint distorts settled antitrust law and is based on misrepresentation of competition in the in the entertainment industry today. So, Paramount is weighing whether to shift major operations out of California, after Attorney General Rob Bont and 11 other state attorneys general filed, attorneys general, I always get that wrong, filed today to block its 110 billion acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery. This story was back and forth. Will Netflix get it? Paramount wound up with the highest bid, the most cash offer. It got approved. huge windfall for David Zazlov over at Warner Brothers Discovery. but a very controversial acquisition.

31:26 >> All the shareholders. >> Yeah, everyone did very well. but people were very worried because they owned two two historic studio lots in Los Angeles. Would they need both of those? Would they convert one to apartment buildings? This was sort of the the the the nightmare case for fans of Hollywood film making that it would become a more agile, lean, globally distributed studio that would they be making less films would they change their their pattern because as they are two separate buyers of intellectual property and scripts that come to Hollywood, they can pay higher prices.

32:02 there's less competition potentially the the price of the the that the the the industry becomes more monopolistic and there's less buying activity. So the proposed deal was the and is the largest merger in Hollywood history. it would combine two of the five major film distributors and give the resulting company control of roughly 27% of US film distribution and basic cable channels. of course, anyone who's in favor of this was arguing that, well, people are watching Instagram and YouTube all day long and listening to podcasts and live streams. you can't look at Hollywood in isolation. It's okay if there's a little bit of consolidation in an industry that's facing incredible pressure from a new disruptive industry. we saw this play out with the shutter stock Getty Images question where you have immense pressure in the stock image in market from an entirely new outsider technology consolidation makes a lot of sense usually in those scenarios. but if you're just looking at it if you're just defining the industry as only Hollywood studios then yes this is this does represent more consolidation. friends and advisers to Paramount CEO David Ellison had reportedly been urging him to reconsider the company's California footprint in the event that California sued over the deal. Previously, Paramount had offered to keep both of its historic studio lots in California open and release 30 films annually, which was basically just adding the 15 and 15 that were made from both studios, I believe, something like that.

33:38 but executives have privately complained that Bontto refused to negotiate. Worth noting that the Justice Department has already cleared the merger while China and other international regulators have raised no comparable comparable objections thus far. So from a antitrust perspective, it looks like the merger can go through, but the state of California is potentially trying to block it now. So Paramount says California's complaint distorts settled antitrust law and is based on misrepresentation of competition in the entertainment industry today. It'd be very interesting to see where they actually go if they do leave California because there's been so much so much movement to Texas and Florida, but in terms of film making, Toronto, London, Atlanta. Exactly. So maybe Georgia. I don't know. I'm sure every other state is gunning for this because bringing a bringing an industry to town is is almost always a good move. More jobs for your local economy, more more tax dollars going around. there will probably be a a competition, but we'll see. We'll see where this where this develops and we might have someone from the media analysis industry come on the show later this week to discuss.

34:50 >> There is a new letter new letter just dropped. We are hoping for a new billion-dollar PDF, >> but we got another letter. more than 200 researchers and economists including Jack Clark, Jeff Dean, Nome Brown, Tyler Cohen, Scholto, John Schulman, Eric Schmidt, Dean Ball, Yoshua Benio, >> Joshua Benjio, >> signed a statement urging governments and institutions to act now to prepare for AI's economic impact. They start the >> pretty simple >> letter by saying AI may become radically more powerful over the next 10 years.

35:29 They don't. This isn't like the start. It's just three statements. The entire >> So they're signing but they're signing >> they're saying we all agree with these three statements. >> They they agree that AI could possibly become radically more powerful over the next 10 years, >> which feels very conservative. >> That's like an incred you're not committing to anything at all. >> no, I mean there are plenty of people that are saying that AI will go away in the next 10 years. Like it's it's useless, you know. No one's really saying that.

35:59 >> Ed Zitron's saying that and like a 100,000 people are liking his post when he says that. >> So like there are 100,000 people out there that are like it hallucinates. It's dumb. It's it's not useful. It's going to go away. >> People out of billions go away. I'm just saying there there are people that don't believe this. But yes, this does feel like a like a like actually an easier statement to agree with than the short timelines of fast takeoff in two years. recursive self-improvement, anything that's coming out of basically any lab is much more aggressive than this. Elon's timelines have been solving new physics in two years, stuff like that.

36:34 >> Yeah. Okay. So, point one, AI may become radically more powerful over the next 10 years. >> Point two, this could drive an unprecedented transformation of our economy larger than the industrial revolution, but unfolding over a vastly shorter time frame. It could bring risks including large-scale job displacement as well as opportunities such as major gains in living standards. And three, economists, policy makers, and technology leaders must act now to understand the economics of transformative AI and to build the incentives, guard rails, and institutions needed to steer AI in a direction that complements humans and benefits society. So, >> so that last one's not a probability.

37:15 Yeah. The first one it feels like you can sign if you're at 1% 1% chance that it gets more more radically more powerful over the next 10 years. 1% chance that it drives an unprecedented transformation of our economy. But as long as you agree that economists, policy makers, and technology leaders must act now to understand the economics of transformative AI, you sign this. So So three is really the strongest the strongest the most strongly worded bullet point. Well, and it's interesting because the people signing this are technology leaders.

37:49 >> So, they're really saying >> not not the actual top leaders interestingly. So, if you look at who signed this, you have a ton of people from OpenAI, Anthropic, Stanford, Meter, like every Harvard like every lab, >> BAM Margera, I think you said. >> No, no, no. Google, Jeff Dean, like you have people from top from top institutions, but not the CEOs, not the investors. Like there's been other there's been other I mean I guess Reed Hoffman and Yan Talin and who else is I mean Eric Schmidt's on here, but notably absent are Sam Alman, Daria Amade, I don't believe Demis is on here.

38:28 Is he on here? >> Yeah, but you you have Jack Clark, Sarah Frier. >> Yeah. So, but what's interesting is that it's it's sort of like the proxies. It's the it's like the right-hand men and women of the AI leaders that are signing. And so you have to imagine that that Dario, Sam, Elon, Demis, Sundar, Satia, like they got the message. This was received to them and they were like, "You guys can solve this, but you can sign this, but we're not signing it because this doesn't feel like something that happens behind the scenes where Sarah Frier doesn't go to Sam or or Shalto doesn't bring this up to Dario.

39:04 Oh, there's a new letter. I'm thinking of signing it. Like, it feels like it's >> So, was the like that that big pause letter that Elon did sign at one point? >> A lot of people sign it. And and that one every lab leader actually did sign. And this one isn't even a pause, but somehow didn't rise to the aura level. And maybe that's deliberate because then it gets clipped and turned into headlines where it's like, you know, blank lab leader, fill in anyone. It's gonna be a It's gonna be >> leaders at XYZ lab.

39:36 >> It's gonna be head of blank lab if you're the first one to jump if you're Sam or Daario or Demis or Elon. they just said that it could bring largecale job displacement. So you you're gonna have that headline tag next to you as opposed to if it's like someone at a lab who is not the CEO of that lab says it can bring large scale job displacement because right now it seems like at the very top a lot of the lab leaders are sort of backing off of the near-term job displacement worries.

40:09 >> Yeah. But I I think this still feels much more like the the AI doc than like AI 2040, right? And that like the the message I got from the AI doc was like >> we all got to talk about this, you know, let's get everyone in a room and like figure something out. We don't know at all what it's gonna be. We got to figure something out where AI 240 is like okay, we have this this is our our plan A. We should be doing this specific set of of you know policies, task, whatever.

40:32 >> Yes. It's like this is much more like we all got unifying rules with China like US and China like nuclear level negotiations on how things slow down. It's it's it's a global slowdown of largecale AI training runs essentially. and this is very yeah this is very very different. So much easier to sign but a AI 2040 didn't have like signitories. I mean it had people that like helped out with it in general and then they did poll them as to they pulled some of the authors to say like which one do you think is most likely to play out. but I I guess by any I guess everyone implicitly in the AI 2040 if you contributed to that document you're sort of alongside advocating for is it plan A because it's the fourth one that they offer I is it plan D >> I think plan A is is what they bunch of plans and then I think like in the order on the website I think it is the fourth one but that's just like the arbitrary >> AI 2040 I'm trying to load the site but it's not loading Anyway, we can come back to that. We must act now. I I like this. I like I like the idea of of more economic research, more policymaking research to understand these things. It it it's not like it's hard to get wrong because the end result is just more information, more studies, more you know, conversation and proposals. It's not anything specifically like if it was like we like large scale do job displacement is coming next month we need to you know print money and do economic stimulus broadly like we did during co I would be like I don't know that the like what if the job displacement doesn't come up and we just create a bunch of inflation like I don't I don't know if we should do that but we should be ready for if we hit 10% unemployment 15% unemployment that we do have stimulus in the back pocket and I we do with where interest rates are and with the with the history of how we've dealt with employment shocks in the past. so I think we are like set up pretty well if that happens. Doesn't seem like it's happening at this moment.

42:40 But >> yeah, >> tell us about >> I think the critical the critical view on this is the people building the technology say that we got to do something about this. Mhm. >> Like like it's kind of just continuation of like that we got to do something about this and maybe you just need to do a new letter every single month forever. >> Maybe >> but >> I don't know. Let me tell you about Figma agents. Meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context.

43:12 I want that for the next ad read. I want the ship horn. The ship horn is where it's at. >> That one is so underrated. So, I wanted to talk about the mustard controversy over the weekend, but the original video was deleted >> and it's now really hard to >> just describe it to me. >> We have audio listeners. >> So, there's two car content creators in the LA area. >> Okay. >> One of them is an account called Collected Bands, who's a Porsche enthusiast, a BMW enthusiast, >> likes to drive fast, >> younger, >> on the younger side. And then you have a guy named Canyon Carver who's effectively like a vigilante of the canyons. So he hangs up in a lot of the popular driving areas >> and he doesn't like to drive fast.

43:58 Canyon Carver. That's >> he likes to drive like pretty I would say close to the speed limit. >> Okay. >> and so he hangs out places like AC in the Santa Monica Mountains, you know, around Malibu. >> A >> Angelus Crest Highway. >> Okay. >> And which is which is near you. Yeah. >> And so he likens himself to kind of the sheriff or the mayor. He calls him the Batman. He >> claims to be the original Meta Rayban's like car >> Oh, interesting.

44:28 >> Guy was you. I don't know how I don't know how true that is, but over the weekend these two cross paths and there there was a video that ran up to hundreds of thousands of likes before on on Saturday to Sunday before being deleted where the Canyon Carver is driving and he gets passed by this other car influencer and then they end up they end up in the same parking lot and they have a very quite a funny exchange where they're just talking talking talking past each other sort of perfectly. the younger guy is accusing the Canyon Carver of just being 40, which is kind of funny.

45:18 And the Canyon Carver is accusing the other the the younger guy of his dad buying the car for him to which he immediately says just because my dad bought me this car doesn't mean I can't afford it. Which is which is a which is a funny >> which is a funny line. But anyways, this is so inside baseball like LA, Southern California car enthusiast drama that I think it's time to move on because without the original video, it's it's really tough.

45:49 >> What is your stance on cutting the mustard? >> Yeah. So, I'm very against cutting the mustard. Okay. >> >> you like a safe highway, a safe canyon to be carved safely. >> Yes. So, cutting the mustard is when you know someone's driving fast on a let's say a canyon backcountry road and they're using the entire road, right? They're sort of disregarding the lanes. >> Double yellow line. >> Yeah. Double yellow. They're crossing it because >> which is a moving violation. That's illegal, right?

46:14 >> Yeah. No, it's objectively against the law. Yeah. >> And then it's very dangerous because you're coming around a tight corner and if somebody's in your lane, it can be over >> really quickly. Maybe maybe we should have sort of a like a an autobond style rule where the yellow line doesn't apply. There's certain highways in in in America. It's like we we can't get over the speed limit thing. We got to have the speed limit. There's still a hard speed limit, but you can drive wherever you want.

46:46 >> Absolutely. >> That'd be crazy. >> Absolutely. >> I mean the problem is like is like Willow Springs is like 45 minutes away. Just go to the track and it's a public course. you can pay and go and drive as fast as you want and there is no traffic coming the other way. It's much safer. So, if you're trying to push your car to the limit, like there is a way to do that legally and safely. And so, you should probably just do that.

47:07 >> I thought it was interesting because it was very generational. You had like the millennial you know, against the the brained sort of zoomer and and they just couldn't even have a conversation. They were just sort of speaking past each other, you know, doing >> various ad hominins. >> Okay. Well, last car question from Reddit r/wealth. If I inherit $4 million USD and a home at 35 years old, would it be responsible for me to just buy a Ferrari? Why just? It's a funny way to put it. I think yes. I mean, you're not going to probably beat the S&P, but a lot of the cars hold their value. Might be fun. I don't know. It depends on your lifestyle. If you have five kids in private schools or something, like 4 million probably isn't enough. Depends on where that home is. Do you live in Manhattan?

47:56 >> It comes down entirely to what car you select. >> Yeah. >> Because there's a lot of cars that, >> you know, if you're not driving them a lot, it it would probably, you know, at least track tea bills, right? From a from a certain certain >> appreciation standpoint. I live in Manhattan. I'm trying to send my kids to the most elite boarding schools. I have seven kids and I'm considering a Luch. That would be a rough go. But if you're out in, you know, an affordable town, plenty of space, you're not going to spend that much money. The four million is going to last you a long time. Maybe pick up a >> There was a powerful omen in Yellowstone National Park.

48:32 >> Why was this >> Friday evening? >> oh, yes, this bison. We got to play >> bull bison. A tourist was seriously injured Friday evening after being thrown 8 feet into the air by a bull bison in Yellowstone National Park. If you're in Yellowstone, be very very careful. I didn't realize that bison roamed so freely and could and were so aggressive. professional photographer Mike McClode filmed the incident and said the bison was angry, agitated, and charging anything and everything. And the the scale of this beast is really massive.

49:10 it looks absolutely huge. And it goes all around chasing this this poor elderly tourist who >> who ended up being totally okay. >> Oh, really? >> And when you see this, it's almost unbelievable. >> That's remarkable. It said Cowboy State Daily says tourist was seriously injured, but I guess the man did recover, which is very very good to hear. You never want to see someone injured on the timeline, but he really does get thrown way way in the air and he's running around. I was wondering, he should have gone for the car right there, right? But there there you go.

49:45 He's thrown in the air. Absolutely insane. >> I'm so glad he's okay. >> I like that people are already remixing this. Wild Spicy says, "If it was me out there, >> we got it different. Throw the bison in there." >> Yeah. If Alexis, if that was Alexis being chased, this is what would happen. >> Let's bring Alexis in. But first, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Look at that fog horn for me.

50:10 Well, we have Alexis O'hane from 776. He's the founder in GP with us here in the TBP Ultra Dome. Alexis, how you doing? Welcome to the show. >> Doing very well, gentlemen. And glad glad that guy's okay. You know, I saw actually if you find yourself in that situation, apparently if you run I think bison can't go laterally, so you want to kind of >> I thought that was crocodiles and alligators you want to zigzag. Is zigzag.

50:32 Oh, that's a fart. >> I I think that's something Flidians tell tourists. You got to be like NFL mode, just running routes on routes on the bison. >> Yes, that's the move. >> Absolutely. Good to know. Good to know. >> Absolutely. Wild. how is your summer going? Are you engrossed in World Cup? What What What's your summer been like? Give me a little >> It's good. Ironically, ironically, I have spent most of this World Cup actually in Europe watching the matches back in America at like 2:30 in the morning. I'm more, you know, I'm more of a women's sports fan course, but it's been great. It's been great watching the American men showed up in a big way.

51:07 Obviously, you know, didn't get as far as any of us, you know, we would have wanted to see a title, but very happy for the American men to have made it to the 16. And I don't know who to root for now. I guess technically England. Yeah, >> given my Chelsea women's connection, but we'll see. There you go. yeah. I want your current thesis on premier in real life events. Maybe in the age of AI, maybe there's some other boom happening. But I have some stats here that are crazy that were on the timeline from Adam Miller. UFC they sold it sold for 4 billion in 2016, worth 15 billion today. F1 revenue is up 115% since 2017. Team values are up 276.

51:46 FIFA World Cup viewership is on track to to pass 2022's 5 billion. Revenues up 56%. NBA media rights tripled in a decade. NFL 110 billion in media rights through 2033. Broadway is up. Live comedy tours gross more. 6 billion. >> High Rocks went from 650 athletes in 2017 to 1.5 million. World music tours top 100 tours grossed 8.9 billion. How are you thinking about this? Is this an opportunity as a as a fan or as an investor or as a businessman? Like what what what's your overall thinking on live events in the future?

52:24 >> Look, like last time I was on here, I think I was gassing up my track and field league with the Olympics there, Alo every year, not just every four years. I have been obviously very early in sparking the women's sports movement, starting Angel City and the investment there. But I you can roll the tape. There is footage from I think two and a half years ago at Can Lion where I call sports the ultimate anti-AI bet >> and I think just two weeks ago JP Morgan Chase is on stage saying the same thing.

52:51 So what we mapped out at 776 3 years ago right after chat GBT was basically we know it's going to get really good at writing and then it's going to get really good at writing code and then you know once actually was after Delali I was like okay even this first version is janky but moving pictures are just one step away from static pictures. So in the world of entertainment right the pillars of entertainment you have music industry you have movie Hollywood and you have sports what will remain unchanged and durable in the age of AI even when you can have a pixel perfect highlight of Mbappe scoring a goal it will do nothing for the soul because it never actually happened the human experience is the reason why it's valuable and I you know Josh Kushner who's a friend and obviously an incredibly successful investor his first investment from Thrive Eternal great name by the way was the San Francisco baseball Giants y like like we are now seeing a moment where the smartest folks in venture capital realizing this is not just a trophy asset. And what what we've been privileged to see now for 3, four, five, six years is under the hood of these organizations, guys, these the best sports teams in the world, the best sports leagues in the world are run like a tech company in like the mid odds.

54:02 They are devoid of modern technology. They're >> I've asked every time an athlete comes on here, I'm expecting them to have some like, you know, basically performance super intelligence. >> Yeah. Oh, I have a database with every lift I've done. It tells me exactly what to lift and what where to ice. And it's like, no, I just have a guy that, you know, tells me if it hurts, I walk it off or something. >> And and it's also on the business side of the house, right? And so it's it's even if you even asking a question like, "What CRM do you use?"

54:31 >> Like again, you're going to get some weird looks and like maybe it's Salesforce or like, "Oh, we've been trying this new thing called HubSpot." and and so all across the stack there is tremendous opportunity for efficiency for software and so the smart money we're we're we're investing and they're also figuring out how to invest in the tools that'll make these even more profitable enterprises >> and I'm fired up because I also I get I I spend all of my time at 776 either investing in the technology of the future that is going to accelerate so all had Philip on here our guy from StarCloud right data centers in space crazy ambitious infrastructure play or the other end of the barbell of everything I know will be left. Yeah.

55:11 And so a consumer electronics company like Mod Retro, let software keep getting cheaper to make. We still need to have physical things to play those games. We should make them closer to or in America. And so that's a trend that I know is going to continue to grow. And so I I I really see the world through those two sides of the barbell. Either rapidly accelerating the world or everything that I know is still going to be left and matter even more. And it's funny you mentioned Broadway.

55:34 >> Pull the tweet. I think it was a year and a half ago. I'm still trying to find the venturebacked model for it, but my bet was because anyone will be able to sort of dream up their version of Iron Man where they're Iron Man and obviously with making sure Daddy Disney gets their check, but like you're going to have this dispersion of culture and like acting at the end of the day is way more normal for our species in person than it is going into a dark theater and watching on a screen. It's >> I found the tweet. I found the tweet.

56:01 Bonus hot take. I think we'll see live theater make a comeback in the next 10 years. and you said this July 7th. >> I got one for you. >> Yeah. >> I think you should incubate a robot circus, >> an event that you can go to and and I I think in about 2 years you will have robots capable of feats that will be wildly impressive. You can imagine like a drone show that where the drones fly up to within, you know, a foot from your face. You've got humanoids going going crazy.

56:33 >> French Canadians right now running Cir to who are very mad. I think I will I'll give you this. >> Yeah, it's robot cir to >> I think there is. So part of the why at least for me with those things and maybe this is just exposing myself as a bad person is the fact that you're like again you're not hoping anyone gets hurt but it's this anxiety of like oh my god what's going to happen? Like is this person going to survive this deathdeying act? And >> yeah, so you need to make the the the person viewing it feel like they're gonna die. That's the thrill.

57:03 >> It's a drone. It's a drone that flies. It's a You're strapped in you're strapped into like a you know like a roller coaster seat and the drone flies like two feet from your face. You know action >> the I do think I'm I'm fond of saying that like no one will pay money to watch like robots play soccer or imagine golf is an easy one. No one's going to want to watch a Ryder Cup where you know, you get 18 holein- ones against another 18 hole ins. But but there are some sports, you know, we've seen battle bots, right? There there's there's versions of that of like gladiator sort of robots fighting to death. There's probably a version of drone racing.

57:40 >> Yeah. >> That allows you if you play Twisted Metal, but allows weapons on the drones. Right. There's there are there are new sports that are like that are actually entirely robotic but that are levels up of American one or human ones that we don't want humans doing >> but but I had not considered making it an experience for the fans. So >> really quickly so as live events are growing I feel like a lot of collectibles come out of the live event.

58:06 It's like the game ball, the the the the card of the player who played in the live event and you're sort of there's like this chain of custody, chain of authenticity. This thing happened. This human was great at this thing. There was lore. You could have gone and saw it with your own eyes and now there's a card that commemorates it. What's going on in the collectible space? Is there as much of a boom there? What do you expect happening over the next couple years?

58:30 And what are you doing specifically? Well, you know, a few years back, I created the large when I heard trading cards were coming back, I quietly amassed the largest collection ever of my wife's cards just cuz I didn't want them ending up in some other collector's house. I wanted my kids to have that. >> You're like, no one's going to make money on these cards, but me. >> These are family. They're going to stay in the family.

58:51 >> No, no, but also you you drive up the price by by taking all of those cards into the treasury and so everyone's like, "Oh, the the lore is growing." Yes. >> Any knock on effects? I and then I was the lead investor in alt so marketplace which just had they just set a record for an all-time kaboom. It was like a $1.4 million for a one of one Wendy. >> Wow. >> and and you're starting to see real dollars. So it's a it is a a brand within the universe of trading cards that was inspired by like '90s era comics. Okay.

59:20 >> And so it's your favorite players but sort of restylized as like cartoons almost comic book inspired art. And for whatever reason, it struck a nerve with the culture and and so you have these record auctions happening. I'm a big fan of collectible video games, match worn, you know, athletic apparel. All these things I think are culture assets for us. having an 86 Fleer Jordan rookie card on my desk in mint condition is a better sort of more satisfying flex for me than having like a Warhol. No offense to the Warhol, but I think the energy of contemporary art. I think this is our contemporary art especially for a generation of us who grew grew up collecting or idolizing and and now that you know tops and others have gotten much smarter. Oh by the way I bought a trading card company.

60:01 >> Yeah explain that normal firm is it within the firm? Yeah. Very interesting strategy. >> When you're the biggest LP in the VC firm you get to kind of do what you want to do. We have amazing institutional LPs, don't get me wrong, but like >> I I sign up every deal we do at 776. I'm when I'm hitting send, >> I'm thinking of my kids inheritance, right? This is my money more than anyone else's. Totally. And so or theirs really. And so with trading cards, this was a a modest size company that was specializing in college sports.

60:33 Obviously, NIL's changed the landscape of that. >> And this long tale of college athletes, a guy like Mendoza gets a card deal with us. And he doesn't just get his rookie card, his left tackle gets a card. So, the guy protecting his ass who may never get to play in the NFL, may never get a card, he's getting a card with on it. And, you know, I love the fact we actually have just as many, we have more women college athlete cards in the last year than every other card company combined. So, there's a long tail there.

61:00 University of Nebraska women's volleyball sells more cards than the men's football team. >> And so, it's focused on a part of sports that I obviously love. I think college is obviously a huge and booming opportunity. And these companies all need software now. They all have an opportunity to >> do any of the athletes turn it down. >> No, it's I mean the the amazing thing is we're playing at a level where like these some of these guys are making so much money in NIL deals that the kind of deal we're striking with them is not >> 10 15 million.

61:31 >> No. Well, no. That's the amount that they're making all year. That's not what I'm paying them for. No, no, no. These card deals are still pretty small ball and so relative to the deals they're getting from big brands. And what's dope is, you know, most of these guys are thinking big picture and if they make a little less money doing an audit deal, but every other guy on their team is getting a card. >> Oh, sure.

61:49 >> They're not mad. They're not mad sharing that. >> And and the athletic directors love it because we're also working with the women athletes just as much as we are with the men. So, that's the focus. And and I'm but I'm inspired by so much of the motion and creativity happening here. even Jensen Wong's leather jacket going on sale. I think it's only the second one that's been auctioned. These are cultural moments and I know we live in a weird little myopic tech world, but like the kind of things I know I want to bid on.

62:16 >> Are you have you have you bid yet? You know, you know the the Jensen jacket now. >> The you know the Jensen jackets going to a good cause. It's our friend Justin Mar's inflection grants. >> So all the money, all the proceeds are going to be given to to you know founders. No strings attached, no equity, just >> love the game. how how much do you think the boom in live events is driven by social media and flexing like these are these you know very exclusive basically you know you can call them like one of 10,000 assets right or they're these like ephemeral >> you're buying a ticket but it's also you know >> there was a very viral post over the weekend >> my narrative is almost the next bullcase for live events. And in fact, the current boom is driven more just by people seeing cool events happening on social media and then also just feeling isolated. They're spending a lot of time on their phone. They're like, I got to get out of here. I got I should go to that live event and everything else outside of the live event is free. So, I'll spend more money on the live event because I can basically watch every music video ever created for free on YouTube, etc. And I I agree with you that the AI thing is is going to be big, but it doesn't feel like the current driver.

63:34 >> I look, I don't disagree. And I would I would also think of it as sort of just like that K-shape happening in the economy. I think >> you're going to see, right, one of the things the the the Wimbledon ticket, >> yeah, >> is going to continue to be even more exclusive, even more scarce because there's just a finite amount of access to it, right? But I also wouldn't discount growth on the other end, which is I think a bigger culture shift.

63:58 in building AFL, one of the things that's been really eye openening for me is we partner with run clubs in order to build our fan base. Now, just because you run doesn't necessarily mean you're a fan of track and field, but it's very easy to get you to be one because these are the best in the world doing what you like doing for fun. >> the average soccer fan doesn't play soccer very often, right? And so by learning about run clubs the last two years, not firsthand, but I have learned that it is a way for Gen Z to push back on the toxicity of online dating culture, it is a way to push back and almost break the sort of jaded narrative of like online life to actually like meet with people, decide if you want to spend more time with them or not, again platonically or romantically. And I think there's also a culture shift happening among genzies in particular who have kind of lived through the dark parts of social and have just said the algorithm. Not all of them, but I'd say like a material majority and said, "I crave IRL." And it doesn't cost a Wimbledon ticket to go join a run club, but it's an experience that is verifiably human, which is harder and harder on this dead internet. And and it's a chance to get laid. It's a chance to meet someone who could be a lifelong friend. Like there's I I think the that part of the barbell that gets me excited is that side of like the things we've done as a species way longer than this modern age of the last couple hundred years. And I think those food I mean this is it's such a dumb thing but like I I think if if we get the AI utopia we all want right this gets cheaper and easier and better to make and it's healthier for you. It's more accessible to more people. There are so many things that are still going to be invaluable that will still give us and I hope give us even more of a purpose to live.

65:33 Whether it's getting food together or going for a run together, shouting at a soccer game or screaming with our favorite singer or laughing at a stand-up comedian's jokes. Like I actually I'm I'm very bullish on humanity for if this goes right, >> us actually having even more appreciation for the that like a world that our great great grandparents would actually really recognize as being like the sort of fundamental parts of humanity. >> Yeah. And I almost >> how did you process given you know given your work with Alos how did you process the enhanced games? It felt like to to me to me it was like one of those ideas that that sounded so cool in theory, >> but then as I was watching it, I realized like how much of the Olympics is about the pain and the glory and the sacrifice and representing your country and like the every four years dynamic and just how different a gold and a silver are even though they're right next to each other on the podium. Mhm.

66:31 >> And so when I was watching it, it just felt like drinking a flat soda, you know, where it's like you get a little bit of the taste, but it doesn't hit. >> And I'm curious how you how you felt. >> Yeah, look, I and I would not I I I am I know those guys. I am happy they did it in the sense that I do think those regulatory bodies, Watada and some of these others are very very antiquated with how they think about >> usage and testing.

66:57 you hear about athletes getting suspended for marijuana, like like things where it's like, is this really in the best interest of preserving the sport. >> and I do think guys like Brian Johnson and others who are human guinea pigs for things that could benefit all of us, a great benefit to society, right? where this one rubbed me the wrong way or at least where I knew I wasn't gonna want to be party to it was because I mean the thing you nailed obviously having a wildly successful professional athlete for a wife who was also accused for so much of her career of some doping right I the idea of a league that is leaning so heavily into everyone dopes is just anathema to what I really believe sport is about but I'm still look I still think like I said I think it's a I think it's important to move the narrative forward of like what actually should be approved and not and I also think hopefully it gives people more of an appreciation like you said for the fact these athletes sacrifice.

67:51 And probably it's a similar narrative that we had when I found out how little money most Olympic athletes actually make. Like before athletes, the top prize for a track and field athlete was $30,000 in a season. They would win the championship that year, be the fastest man and women in their race, man or woman. It was 30 grand on a trombone. >> There we go. There it is. And and so we doubled it just because there >> and then we I think we have we have 2 we have over 2.1 million in prize money this year for two race London and New York and we're giving equity like like these are all things and I think the enhanced games prize money is also a helpful way to push that conversation forward of saying hey these Olympic athletes should actually they're worth more >> and and so I think that's good for them but yeah like I said I couldn't I couldn't personally get behind it for those reasons and >> how are you last question since we're out of time. how are you processing just the explosion of sports betting as I was and and kind of how it's driving sports and live events and providing a lot of funding. But at the same time, I was watching you know, watching the the McGregor fight, if you could call it that, on Saturday and like they don't even do betting exclusives anymore. It's every single ad is for a different sports book or prediction market. Mh.

69:09 >> and and and and so yeah, it's I I've never had like the sports betting bug. I I've at points been like, I got to give this a good shot. Like it seems like a lot of people >> really like doing this. >> I gave it a shot. I could >> I watched you I watched you lose $200 and it was one of the most entertaining things. >> Yes. It was wildly entertaining. It was wildly entertaining for John, but for me I was like >> I was like that's it. Maybe >> he's down to his last four cents. Let's see what he'll do now. Will he make a play?

69:40 >> I did get out to I did get down to four cents and then I was like, I'm going to make it all back in one trade. And that's man, >> a hell of a parlay. >> Like 20 different legs. I >> I look, I one of the things we've said around here is we want to invest in things that we know can make, you know, generational size returns, but also be things we're proud to tell our kids about.

70:02 >> And so I have, again, I have no beef with betting or gambling. Yeah. >> I think I think in models where the house always wins, that does not stir my coco because now you're just you're just weaponizing sort of slot machine tactics to bring someone back who probably shouldn't be investing that next dollar or gambling that next dollar. >> I think prediction markets are unique in that it is peer-to-peer and I I feel less distaste around, hey, someone made a better decision than you did today.

70:29 Sure. >> Right. That feels more like any market. but I do think overall the worst toxicity that I've seen on the internet when I when I get and it's it's I mean it was jarring when I first started dating my wife. >> The worst toxicity that I would get was from psychopathic racists on the internet and it was tied to sports betting. >> Wa. >> Yeah. >> And and so and tennis is a unique sport where there's actually always been a lot of sports betting women's sport where there's actually always been a lot of energy around it. And so even just anecdotally, it feels like athletes carry a disproportionate weight from it.

71:03 And it might be easy to say, well, don't don't check social media, but like you I mean, we all get our we all get our hate, but like if you're an athlete, like you're literally just trying to do your job every day in front of everyone. We don't have to our board meetings are not broadcast to the world. We don't you you already have to live every workday in front of every person on the planet. And if if the downside if a shadow of sports betting and its rampant growth is even more toxicity for the athletes like that feels bad. And then there's this >> I saw I think it was like Holland's teammate who you know had a clear had a clear sort of should have passed it but he's in the moment you know he's think he's going to be a hero >> and and yeah he he had more you know he just lost the World Cup >> you know not or not lost but you know lost in the in the quarters and he had like you know double the amount of comments as likes on on his last post.

72:01 most of almost all of them saying like you know >> it's just very different when you're a fan you're passionate about a team yes you are upset about your favorite player yeah but it's different when people have money on the line they are more incentivized to go crazy online and and send the aggressive message which is never fun >> yeah and I and I and I also just think from a health standpoint of our society right we know young men are more likely right we're risktakers biologically and that's a great thing when it pushes us to go take an entrepreneurial risk It is a less great thing when we invest our last $100 on a parlay that's never going to pay off and then it leads us into a cycle of addiction and problems. And so >> I I hope we can have a good conversation as a society about this. I know we're in a very like let's say deregulatory time in America right now.

72:48 >> and I hope when that switches, >> I hope it doesn't lead to a hyper regulatory period. But like I hope we can have a reasonable conversation because I also I the part that worries me the most is we know we're going to continue to see more growth and acceleration for folks who are connected and plugged in and that's going to be a great thing. It's going to give us lots of good stuff. >> If the folks who aren't feel even more disenfranchised and even more left out that there's this almost like and you see parts of it flare up in crypto for sure, right? you see this sort of dystopian world of people willing to do anything to make a buck that that that from a societal standpoint makes me very very very uneasy and and I I like it's it's becoming more and more obvious how big a role betting is in particular sports betting is >> and I just feel like we haven't had the conversation and I don't know if we have the folks equipped to have the right one and >> it's starting it's starting there's >> well I think Saturday's I think Saturday's event could be somewhat of a turning point with the UFC because you know there there's some at least some some like potential >> there's an idea that maybe there was people that knew there was a major injury going into that and there was too much money on >> I think we will have a national conversation about this I I'll give you 10 to1 odds that it happens this year by the end of the year >> you guys are good >> I also I also heard an interesting stat 99% of gamblers quit right before they hit it big so if that really goes national and people embrace the the the statistic I mean it's just math like you know anyway We had a bet. We had a bet running through that this this interview would go over cuz we always love talking to you.

74:20 >> Sorry it's been so long. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do it again soon. >> great to see you and congratulations. I I congratulate you all on Twitter, but congrats on the exit. I will still point out as soon as I saw you. >> I know. I know. I need to apologize. I need to apologize. You're like, "Yeah, we're a bunch of you're a bunch of like why would you want to invest in I saw the potential. You guys you guys deserve every bit of it though.

74:42 >> Thank you. I appreciate that. Great to see you, dude. >> Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco. Our next guest is Morgan Howell. He's been on the show once, twice. I think this is his third time. >> Fourth time, maybe fourth time back. >> Well, we we got a bet going now. Okay.

75:04 How are you? >> Yeah. Can we start with sports betting? Is it an epidemic? How do you think I how how has the sports betting boom and the gambling boom and the hyper financialization worked its way into your your thought process and your work generally? >> I have two takes on this. One that's been talked about by a lot of people is that this well-known idea in psychology that if you think all of your options in life are bad, you become very risk-seeking. And so if you feel like you can go to go to college, get a degree, work hard, get promoted, buy a house, you'll do that. If you don't, you'll start trading zero day options.

75:37 That that that makes sense. I believe that. >> I could also argue the other side, which is that if my generation, my parents' generation, our grandparents, if they had access to all of these things, they would have done the same thing. Like it's not it's just because we have these tools now that we're using them. >> Yeah. It's such a classic when >> like the image of like a boomer at in the Vegas like airport just, you know, hitting hitting the button over and over and over is like sort of like an iconic image in my mind. And I think that's proof to what you're saying, which is like, you know, if everyone had a casino in their pocket for the last hundred years and probably every generation would have been gambling at a pretty high rate.

76:13 >> It would have been the same. I mean, for my generation, when we were teenagers, the the new thing was was day trading because before that, you had to call your stock broker and pay him $200 to make a transaction. Now, you had E Trade and Charles Schwab. You could do it for free or nothing. And so, all of us, like when I was 17, we all started day trading. Every one of us did it. It wasn't about the economy. it was just the tools we had in front of us.

76:33 >> How do you think about loss aversion in the in the in the gambling in the in the world where you're doing these like crazy parlays? Because there's been all these studies that show that people have more negative feelings about losing money than than the good feelings that come from making money. This general idea of loss aversion. if you if you lose 10 $10, you're you're going to feel more pain than the joy that you would equivalently feel from gaining $10. So people are generally loss averse. And yet gambling seems like a formula for like endlessly triggering that loss aversion. And yet we don't see that actually play out.

77:12 >> And then you also have this other concept of house money where like if you do win, it doesn't it's not your money that you earned from your paycheck and you're much more likely to take higher risk from it from there. And you you see it with loss aversion in people's lifestyles as well. If you go from a Honda Civic to a BMW, it feels pretty good. If you are forced to go from the BMW back to the Civic, >> it's the worst feeling you could ever possibly imagine. Will Smith talked about this with fame. He was like, becoming famous is amazing.

77:37 >> Being famous is okay. Losing fame is the is the hardest pain you could ever experience. And so I think there there's a lot of things in life that are like that where you're taking risks and particularly like investing when you know as a matter of fact that you're going to have losses that's just that's just coming with it. And if the losses are going to feel 10 times worse than than your gains it's going to be it's going to be tough. There's so many of like the best hedge fund manager stock traders the people who've actually done extraordinarily well over years and decades and you look at their track record and they might be right 55% of the time. maybe like 65% of the time if they're incredibly good at what they do.

78:13 >> And so really what their their skill is is they became very comfortable and level-headed losing money. That was how they made money over time was paying the cost of admission of just dealing with that volatility and loss. >> Yeah. I've I've been disappointed that a lot of the folks that I know that participate in gambling refuse to take my advice and invest in the gambling companies. Just buy the house. because some of the some of the gambling stocks you you know you like the industry, hate the industry, but some of the gambling stocks have been very performant. and it's it feels like it should be the solution and yet it doesn't have the same psychological impact of the the quick quick wins that come from actually playing. shifting gears a little bit, I wanted to ask you about the the publishing industry, the non-fiction industry. Tim Ferrris put out a blog post asking the question, has AI already killed how to non-fiction and he tells a story about his his books? And he says that on on the 2026 run rate he's down 57% on on sales of books and he sort of attributes that to some of his books being substitutable with LLMs. just the idea that if his his chef 4-hour chef book was a bunch of recipes and you can get those directly and I'm wondering about how you think the the publishing industry the book landscape there's also this piece in the Atlantic about people just not reading in all anymore what are you thinking about where we are right now in terms of the publishing industry and where we're going >> the only thing on >> the piece in the Atlantic >> sorry >> yeah the only thing I was going to say is like the the decline in sales like coincides with him just putting way less time into his Oh, sure. So, he's maybe driving less sales.

80:02 >> So, so like you have to imagine him not fully pricing in just having one of the biggest podcasts >> in the world. >> Yeah. >> And then and then just slowly doing >> like, you know, more competition plus putting less emphasis into it. But >> what do you think? >> I think I think you're probably on to something there. I was going to point out Mel Robbins whose book will sell 8 zillion copies this year. That's that's non-fiction self-help. It's the exact same genre and she's blowing the doors off right now. And so I think for every example that you put in what what's true is that >> the book industry as a whole and particularly non-fiction has not had a very good three or four years. A lot of which was because 2020 21 COVID lockdowns was just an explosive bonanza that everything by comparison to then is is is not that great. But I think there's a there's a thing too with with podcasts and long form writing in books where it's easy to say >> that people don't have attention spans these days. They want short form video and that's they just want to flip through it and that's it.

81:01 >> And it's like no, the biggest podcasts in the world are like three-hour conversations that people listen to all the way through. >> And so I think it's not that people don't have attention spans, they don't have a lot of tolerance for BS in the way that they used to. And so I think 30 years ago people would slog through a bad book because they had nothing else to do that day. a bad content that is interesting and saying something new, people will buy it.

81:32 They'll listen to it. They'll put effort into it. They'll listen to it for hours. That's that's still there. >> Yeah. It's crazy how captured audiences were 30 years ago. like you or let's say like pre- internet, but it's like if there's nothing on TV that you're excited about, there's nothing on radio that you're excited about, and you don't have a book physically in your home, and it's like 8:00 p.m., like you're kind of like just choosing between >> options that you're not that excited about, >> but then now it's like >> truly infinite possibility. No one I don't feel like people are bored anymore, right?

82:06 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think it's I think there's there's a lot of times when people what they think is impatience is actually just a newfound intolerance for BS in content. I think there's a lot of that. >> Interesting. Yeah. I was in a bookstore recently and the the the power law of publishing is fully on display because you walk in and the the the Mel Robbins book, for example, will be shoved in your face with a massive display and tons of copies. And then if you're actually looking for a book, you have to find the section and it's much harder to dig through and it might not even be in stock. and I would I would have assumed that the internet would sort of flatten that and lift the tail, but I guess there are power laws everywhere and so certain books go viral. What I'm interested in is is this idea of like there are certain there are certain authors that publish a book every year and they sort of just base hit base hit base hit and then there's another version of that playbook which is have one really defining book but then continue to franchise it, promote it, add on to just continue to drive sales.

83:06 And I think that's what Jordy was alluding to a little bit about you have a podcast and you can drive sales to your existing catalog even if you're not publishing new books. Yeah, I think that power law exists even among the tippity top authors. Stephen King has written like 50 books, something like that. And most of his sales and most of his fame came from like three. So even among and like you have people like Michael Lewis who's written, I don't know, I'm going to guess like a dozen books, something like that. And I bet most of his income, sales, and fame came from two or three of them.

83:32 >> And so some people have a better hit rate than others, but even among the best. I was listening to an interview yesterday with Matt Damon. Same thing in movies. He's made dozens of movies most of us watching this have never heard of before. Yeah. And so that you see that you see that everywhere. I remember James Clear telling me several years ago there's four million books for sale on Amazon. And if you look at the top five the top five of the four million it's possible that number one is selling 10 times as many copies as number two.

83:57 >> Yeah. >> So even like it's a four million thing and even among the top this the the power law just gets crazy. >> Yeah. I think it's the same thing with with podcast. I think Rogan is like an order of magnitude bigger than everybody else at least on Spotify. Jordy can't name a single Matt Damon movie. >> Porn Identity. >> There you go. Oh yeah, that that is the series that you like. Matt Damon also famously passed on Avatar and he was like you would have made so much money from that. but James Cameron said like the movie it's not a Matt Damon vehicle. It's a it's just a it's a movie that the idea exists regardless of >> Has there been has there been a a book written on the power law? Not the the the venture book, the power lawy, >> but the book on just like every single place at the power law because I'm wondering like is does power power law apply to marriages where like the best marriages are actually 10 times better than you know >> I would assume I would assume it does. I think it's one of those big things that's going to influence everything in life >> and it throws a lot of people off because it's like you can be extremely good at what you're do like if you are a really good college basketball player >> you might be significantly like there's the difference between that I what was the story I'm thinking of it was someone it was an NBA player that people were harassing because he he was having a really bad season and he went on a podcast and he was like the difference between me and you is so much bigger than the difference between me and LeBron. It was like it's like once you get to that level like the >> and so I you you you see it everywhere.

85:29 >> But couldn't you make the argument that no, the difference between you and LeBron is actually is actually I guess it's the difference still could be bigger, but it could be. Yeah, I mean I I I I don't when when I was a my my sport growing up, I was a ski racer and if you were a really really good regional skier, you were not in the top hundred nationally and you were not in the top thousand internationally. It just it got and I think it's it's it's it's like that for most sports >> because what you're thinking of is algorithms to live by the computer science of human decisions by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths. It takes well-known computer algorithms and then applies them to everyday life. So a good example is the 37% rule for choosing this is like known as the secretary problem. But when selecting amongst a a fixed number of options, apartments, job candidates, even potential partners like marriages, spend the first 37% of your search observing without committing and then choose the next best option that is better than everything you've seen before. and you will almost you'll be like mathematically optimal and it takes all these different algorithms and applies them to everyday life. It's a fun book >> with in parenting. Are are you do you spend any time thinking about or trying to identify where where your children might have might be 10 times better or the potential to be 10 times better at something than their than their peers. Cuz I look at this between between my children even even looking at athletic abilities. I think it's already like completely noticeable who's like the better at least natural athlete. And I believe that that will probably carry through throughout their whole life is my is my intuition.

87:16 not to say >> here's my not not for my kids. Let me tell you a story. When so I I was a skier growing up and for my generation there were two skiers who became head and shoulders above everyone else. Lindsey Vaughn and Ted Ligy. they both won Olympic gold medals. Everyone knows Lindsy Vaughn now. when Lindsay Vaughn was 6 years old, she was in a different universe of everyone else of of of talent. She was just, it was so obvious from the time she was a small kid that she was just the best out of anyone. Ted Ligy was not that. He didn't hit his stride till he was like 18, which was so so rare. And so I I always it's it's always interesting that yes, there are some people from like from a very early age.

87:53 Tiger Woods was on TV golfing when he was like two as as a talented golfer. And so there's that, but there's also these people that just don't hit it until late in life. And those are always interesting. A lot of entrepreneurs like that that don't really find their stride until they're with Ted. Is it possible that he just didn't care enough until he was late in his teenage years? And prior to that, like he was always that good, but just never put the effort in or the time. I think this is this might bore some me, but I think it's so fascinating. One of the things with Ted is that there are rules about the kind of ski gear that you can use for racing.

88:25 Like they have to meet these these sizes and whatnot. And they changed the rules at one point so that your skis had to have a certain side cut. Ted was the first person in the world who figured out how to ski on the new skis and he just completely dominated everyone else for several years after that before they kind of caught up. So there's there there was some of that that was interesting. But I think for I think that's the rare one. I think to your point the Lindsy Vaughn story is more common when from a young age they are just so preposterously better than everyone else.

88:53 >> Yeah. I want your reaction to this chart that Joe Weisenthal, friend of the show, shared and we we'll have the team pull it up. It's the percentage of US household net worth over time. And for a long time, real estate was the dominant place where American households held their net worth. But for the first time we are seeing that households are increasingly holding equities. Cash and cash equivalents peaked in the 80s and is sort of declining around 10% of household net worth but equities have been completely up and to the right. Maybe it's just a temporary dislocation in the stock market. The stock market's doing very very well. houses are more expensive so households are preferencing that. But I'm interested in your take on what this says about US households, but also the psychology of what it means to hold a you know a larger percentage of your wealth in equities versus your house.

89:56 >> Yeah. We always talk about like the stock market crash in 1929 and and I think that the statistic was 5% of Americans own stocks in 1929. So we had like we talk about it as like it started the Great Depression, but it was it was a such a small number of people that actually got hit by that. Whereas today I think the stat is 55% of Americans own stocks. The vast majority of them in their 401k.

90:17 >> Now and and part of that like if you're an investor for the long term, the odds that you're going to experience a 30% decline or even a 50% decline are are almost 100%. That's just how markets work over time. And does the do does does the general population of just like ordinary Americans who are not watching this and listening to finance podcasts and reading finance books, do they have the stomach for that? Or do do they even know that that's the game that they signed up with for?

90:42 >> I think by and large the answer is no. And even if you do know it, knowing it and experience it and in real time can be completely different. The one thing is that like stocks have been over time, nothing is promised in the future, but generating real growth above the rate like well above the rate of inflation. Real estate is something completely different where particularly if it's the house that you live in, not a rental that you have. I I I think we've done a lot of damage to Americans by convincing them that rising home prices are a good thing and they make them wealthier. And it is such flawed math because if you buy a house for 500 grand and then sell it for a million, how much money did you make? Well, for most people once they sell it, they have to buy another house that also inflated in value by 2x period. It's like you didn't make anything like it looks like wealth on paper with real estate, but it's just a place to live in and you have to exchange it for another place to live in. And you didn't really make that much over time. So maybe if we're talking real wealth over time, it's a much better situation that that we're in now. Yeah, I am interested about I mean I I I know some people who bought in Mil Valley like years ago, decades ago, just because that was a logical place to buy and it was a nice community and of course the house prices are insanely high with the AI boom with San Francisco booming. But there isn't a logical like, oh yeah, of course they'll move to Florida at some point because that's not really what people do culturally if if you are in California.

92:05 You sort of just retire in the town that you grew up in or live in, raised your kids in. If you can do that, if you can sell a Mill Valley and move to Oklahoma, that's great. That's real wealth. But if you sell a Mil Valley and buy a Mil Valley, you can make anything. >> You're not doing anything. what how do you how are you do you ever think about like the different prescriptions for solving the housing crisis? We're having Sager and Jetty on the show tomorrow to talk about it, but I'm interested if there's if there's anything that you have that you've dug into, whether it's through the abundance or permitting or anything that stuck out to you as particularly exciting around the way America deals with housing broadly.

92:45 >> I think I mean it's simple, but it's but it's not easy. It would it would be around permitting and building more. There's obviously demand for more. There is the ability to build more. It's just that in the vast majority of cities, it's virtually illegal to build where people want to live or at least extremely difficult. And it's one thing to say, you know, build more homes is another. If you're a home developer in California and you want to go build 200 homes, you're going to be waiting in line for years and paying a fortune to actually build that if you can actually get it done.

93:13 >> Yeah. And and so I think the idea that you know there's a great saying by Connor Sen who's a great thinker around these topics and he says the future is a policy choice and the reason that home building is so scarce and we don't have enough homes is because we've made a choice to be in that situation. There's no like it's if you were to left to its own devices it would be solved not that you know in in due time. We did this similar situation at the end of World War II when you had 16 million soldiers come home. there were not nearly enough homes for them, >> but at the time it was much easier to build than it is today. And so you had things like Levittown that sprung out of the middle of nowhere and they were building 25,000 homes in a year and you solved the problem in due time. And so it's it's simple but just politically much more difficult to say like yes, I think by and large it's permitting. It's not a it's not an exciting answer, but we've made the choice to make it difficult to build where people want to live.

94:05 >> Yeah. for for those who don't know what what is the actual story of Levittown and and can that be replicated today? I was I was in Irvine and it feels like a very planned community. Of course, most of that town was built maybe a hundred years ago, but it just driving around and seeing so many apartments and houses. It felt like this could be replicated, but I don't I'm not exactly sure how far it would.

94:29 >> Yeah. It was >> it was it was the end of World War II and there were like I said there were all these soldiers who needed homes and buy like most of them a lot of them moved back in with their parents which is not what you wanted to do coming home from war and the Levit brothers were homebuilders. They started buying up abandoned farms >> in New York and Pennsylvania. And they basically took what Henry Ford figured out for cars, which is like you have to make the manufacturing process like very step by step. And every person has a specific step that they do all day long.

94:55 >> And they they made very small, very cheap, not high quality homes, but they could just bang out tens of thousands of them. And and it it it between that and like the GI bill that helped finance a lot of those homes, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say like it saved that generation who came home and had nothing and within a couple years allow them to have a good dignified life going forward. >> Yeah. I've been surprised that we haven't seen more spreading out of basically like longer commutes or longer distance commutes because we're on the cusp of self-driving cars. Even just a basic Tesla Model 3 has self-driving that can make an hourlong commute much more durable palatable and then you also have telecomute and a lot of companies have like a work from home Friday policy or some flexibility around that and I was expecting that there would be some alleviation from the pressure like when I look at the home prices in San Francisco and then I compare them to the the or the rental prices in San Francisco $4,000 for one bedroom and then I look over in Oakland And I'm like I I'm I'm surprised that we're not seeing more flattening out.

96:04 But I think that there's still a huge demand for being in the action in a particular area in a particular town and even in a neighborhood. And so there's been a lot of pressure on like the the highest value areas. I don't know. >> I'd say there's also been a big inflation of expectations over time, which is what you want in society. You want people to expect to expect a better life. But when you talk about Levittown, the houses that they were building back then that were so great for middle-ass Americans in the 40s and 50s would not be considered a livable house today. It was it was 800 square ft for your four or five kids who all shared one bedroom.

96:39 You had one bathroom for the six of you, no garage, no deck, no air condition. Like go on down the list. Most people would not consider that an acceptable place today. And again, I always whenever I point that out, I have to say I want to live in a world where people have higher expectations over time. progress, but it's not comparable over the generations. >> Yeah, Jordy, >> I do too. But at the same time, when I moved to the city that we're in now, I had an extremely long commute and a terrible apartment.

97:09 And >> I had a real roommate and and I think it's just in the same room as me. >> Well, and I think it's I think it's like >> Yeah. because the life that people want is immediately available on social media to them to view at all times. There's I think like a >> a decreased ability to delay gratification because I remember growing up I'd travel to somewhere and I'd see like a really big yacht and I'd be like wow that's like you know pre- internet you're like oh I've never you know well I guess not pre- internet but like you know there wasn't like the first time I saw a yacht I'd probably never seen like an Instagram video of some athlete doing a backflip off of it. I was just like oh that's a totally different like life >> at the same time like I watch MTV cribs and stuff. I don't know.

97:53 >> Yes. I was just I was just going to bring up MTV Cribs which had such a profound cultural impact >> on ed because that was the only view into how the other half lives but and it was I I love I watched every episode of that show when I was younger. But what's but was but what was so important about it is that you did not consider those people peers. >> You're like that's that's that's Master P. Of course his bathroom is made out of mar like that's not a peer of mine.

98:15 >> Whereas today on social media you see the yacht and you see the person and you're like that guy like he he's supposed to be a peer. like I'm supposed to be there. >> And so the fact that it was an obvious celebrity or an athlete and that like Shaq had a 12 foot bed, you didn't expect to have that yourself. >> My f my favorite example is like the GT3 RS is like the most, you know, if you ask like a 21-year-old guy, what car do you want? If you could just get any car right now, a lot of them would say GT3 RS. And so that's my favorite example when talking about personal finance with, you know, people that I know in my life that are just starting their careers is I say like, you know, that car that you see and you just assume like if you work hard you'll like be able to, you know, get a GT3 RS because that's a car you want to drive on the weekend? Well, you need to make if if you want to buy that car, you basically need to make $850,000 in one year in California and be willing to spend the entire amount after taxes that you make just on that car and not have any other expenses for the year.

99:13 So, that is what that car that is the actual cost of that car, but it's just like put into their face all day long to the point where people just assume like, okay, like if I work hard and I do a good job in life, I I should be able to get a GT3 RS. And it's like >> it's just so normalized. I just found one for I just found one for 50k. It has It says it's on a salvage title.

99:35 It It has six owners. Florida. It has aftermarket wheels, but it's doable. It's doable. >> You have You have You have You have to pull it out. >> So, if you make six figs and then you spend your entire >> It's only had four accidents. Only four accidents. >> Anyways, >> still runs. No, I was going to say I think I think tech has has done so much to expectations over time. I was I was in Tahoe this week with my family where I grew up and we were driving past and the the biggest most beautiful house in town, this mansion in it's so beautiful and I told my wife I said you know the the people who who lived there when I lived here back in the '90s that was an orthopedic surgeon and we're like there is no way an orthopedic surgeon could afford that house today. That house would be a tech CEO's house but back then orthopedic surgeon was the highest earnner in town. There were there was there were no product managers at Google making 850 back then.

100:25 >> And so it it created what we used to think of like >> jobs that every town has. Dentists, doctors, lawyers, those kind of things used to be number one. Now they're number 47 on the earners in town. >> Now you got to do orthopedic surgery SAS. >> If you're the founder of an orthopedic surgery SAS product, then you get the house. It's the same thing. Or dental SAS or something like that. >> Yeah. No, it really has been like a crazy crazy boom and it's driven up everything all over the place. Jordan, anything else?

100:54 >> do you ever plan to retire? >> I don't I think it it depends. I I always think like the purpose of financial independence is to get to choose your problems because you're going to have problems either way. >> And I I was talking about this with someone earlier of people who've sold their business. I don't know if you guys know two people who've sold their business recently. I don't know. But the the number of them who went on to regret it and the reason is this won't won't apply to you guys is because they left their business >> and they realized on day one like that was their purpose and and once they lost it that was their identity and they woke up the next morning with tons of money and no purpose.

101:31 >> And I always say like if you think work is hard try boredom. It's way harder. It is way more psychologically taxing than hard work. >> People want good problems in life. and so retire. No, I I'll I'm doing I I work very differently now and do a different level of work, >> less work than I did five years ago, but I'm still doing things to keep myself busy because if I didn't, I would slip into boredom and then probably depression very quickly. So, I guess to answer your question now.

101:55 >> Yeah. Yeah. There's some formula. It's like how much you should invest in bonds is like your age minus 100 minus your age or something. It's like how much free time you should have should be like 100 minus your age. So when you're 20, you're working 80% of your waking hours, but when you're 50, you're taking half the time off or something. I don't know. There there's some like, you know, >> you want to have some sort of balance.

102:18 You probably can't go 100 hour weeks into your 80s, unless I don't know, maybe somebody will, but >> it's a big problem because in finance, we spend so much effort making sure people have enough money to retire and focusing on that number and no time whatsoever asking question, what are you going to do once you're retired? Sure. >> And for a lot of people, they retire, they got plenty of money, they save their whole life, and then after 2 weeks of retirement, they wake up and like, who am I? I I don't even know what I am anymore. What's my identity? What's my purpose?

102:46 >> And if they retire at 60, they might have another 40 years to live. Like an entire extra life to live doing nothing. >> Yeah, it's a long time. >> Nurburg Ring track time sub seven minutes. Make it happen. That'll >> be That'll be John. That is >> It'll be the It'll be the 80-year-old on the on the track >> shaving off milliseconds. >> All right, Grandpa. Let's >> I don't think it's I think I'd have a disadvantage forever. I don't know.

103:10 Maybe I I >> Let me Let me flip that around to you guys. Young guys, successful soldier business. Do you think you'll ever retire? >> No. >> Absolutely not. I saw my my my late grandfather was sharp as attack until about three months after he retired. And I think that I think that the daily habit of just putting putting in work, you know, using using his mental capacities. >> Yeah. >> was contributing to was contributing to his longevity. And to me >> to me the you know building companies is like an act of creation and there's nothing as as satisfying or enjoyable to me in this whole world than creating.

103:56 Yeah. >> And so to me it's like it's like >> you're asking an artist like, "Do you think you'll ever stop like, >> you know, making art?" And it's like, >> yeah, >> yeah, you might you might dial it back. You might do these different things. But >> no, I'm I'm so fascinated to I I I like I like to imagine like if I was 80 years old right now, living the same life, what what would I be choosing to work on? what what ideas and I I think they'll be quite I think they'll be quite different than the things that are interesting to me now.

104:33 >> >> yeah, >> but I look forward to >> I would say like there are some fields that I really admire when people quit while they're ahead. >> Whether it's like Seinfeld in 1998 shows on top of the world and he's like no, we're done. That's I've given it all. We're out of here. But he didn't retire. He's he's still on tour today doing a million other things. And so the the the ability to say like I could probably squeeze more juice out of this career, whatever that career might be, but I'm proud of what I've achieved and now I'm going to go do something else. It's not retirement, but I admire that versus you could easily imagine a history where Seinfeld went another 10 seasons and it sucked and it just kind of like died on the vine. You could easily imagine that history, >> which is kind of what the Simpsons have done over the last 20 years, right?

105:15 >> Interesting. >> And so I I I really like when people quit while they're ahead. I think it's really admirable. There's also something there's like a kind of business that can only be started by someone who doesn't need it to work basically. And you see this with startups where like you know an entrepreneur will have an exit and they'll start working on something and then they'll just be toiling in obscurity for years and and you know and and eventually they can build something valuable out of it. But a young entrepreneur wouldn't necessarily do that because they're like, I have to I have to make the SAS so that I can raise the next round so I can, you know, do all these different things. And so, I also think it just changes.

105:59 when you when you have like if you can set yourself up to be able to take more risk, there's interesting businesses to be built. >> Yeah. I forget who said this years ago. It may have been Mike Salana. I might be getting that wrong, but he said like the number of founders founders that he's met who >> sold their business, cashed out, and then they said, "I'm going to take two or three years off to just chill and ski with my family and hang out and then I'm going to come back." And they come back after 3 years. And I think the way he phrased it was like every one of them is so smoothrained at that point. Like you just lost it. Like you just atrophied, >> they lost the edge of what you had. And so the idea too that it's a muscle that you got to keep going or else it's it's just going to wither away is is important too.

106:38 >> Yeah. Yeah. It seems like the there are there's like a different set of challenges that the postexit founders can take on that that that works. But I if the if the business requires like having really you know like firm contact with you know a large swath of consumers and you haven't been to the store in four years because you now have a personal shopper like you might be out of touch there. But if you're solving some sort of problem on the like geopolitical level, marshalling billions of capital and it's like that was an opportunity that was only open to you after you exited, then that becomes something that's you can accelerate into a little bit better. but it's it's it's sometimes hard for people to go back into the garage. If the if the startup idea requires those like garage years of like prototyping something at a very low level and like going zero to one on something that's so niche and so requires contact with like you know broad reality.

107:38 >> What do you think the value of vacation vacations >> is? Because to me, like I went I went I basically, you know, I'm 30 now, my 20s. I probably didn't take, you know, more than 4 days off, you know, at any point in my 20s. And I used to think like, wow, I'm stressed. I should like get away. And like but ultimately that would just try to create that would in my experience create more stress cuz I'm like the thing that is causing stress I'm not addressing headon and and solving. But I'm curious in your life what you feel like you know what benefit you feel like you get from vacation because I don't think like stress people going on vacation like solves stress.

108:27 >> No. If anything it's because if they actually detach on vacation then they come back and they have 47,000 unread emails and just more problems piled up in there. my >> detaching is not necessarily even healthy to be like I'm just going to ignore the problems in my business or whatever for 4 days and then it's like you may as well just go on a bender or something like that, you know? >> Yeah. I but I do think it's true is that for a lot of people the reason that they actually go on vacation is because they have to travel somewhere else in order to justify detaching. If they just stayed home and detached, they would feel some sense of shame. But if they're like, "Oh, we're going to Maui, so now I'm going to detach." It gives them the excuse to do that cuz like is being in Maui actually that much better than being back at home. Like there are aspects of it but I think what you really enjoy is giving yourself permission to be someone else and to be on a different schedule that you could not bear if you were just staying back at home.

109:17 >> My wife doesn't like traveling. She's totally she likes she likes being at home. And I think this is part of her philosophy of like people don't actually like traveling. They just don't like being at home. And if you enjoy being at home, your desire to actually do it really diminishes. I travel a lot for work, so I don't have a ton of desire to my my idea of a vacation is not not getting on a plane this week.

109:37 >> but I think I think it tends to be true. I I've used this example before of like if I'm building sand castles with my kid on the beach in Maui, and that's a 10 out of 10, being at home playing Legos on the living room floor is at least a nine. What I actually enjoy is is time with them. It's not flying for seven hours and spending 10 grand on the trip. It's spending uninterrupted time with the family. But back to the original point, I think you ha some people have to vacation in order to have unin uninterrupted time with their family. It's impossible any other way.

110:05 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When after kids, the idea of like a a 7-day trip to Hawaii? I'm like, "So, you want me to go through two days of just like pure chaos and suffering for everyone in the family where the kids are uncomfortable because they're >> going to the airport and they're in the airport and they're on a plane and they're waiting around and then and then it's like sort of you bookend the experience. So, you're like you come out of it not necessar like to me I was like I don't come out of trips feeling like >> take a boat turn it into a three-month trip.

110:41 >> There you go. It's probably better. >> My wife My wife has this thing too where she says the best part of every trip is coming home. And I think when we do go on vacation, it gives her a newfound appreciation for home. After you've been in a tiny hotel room and then you come home, your kitchen feels like it's the biggest thing in the world. The bathroom feels like it's the biggest thing in the world and you appreciate what you already have more. We were joking last night, not seriously, but we were like, we should intentionally take worse and worse vacations so we can appreciate home that much more. Wait, we we have a we have a buddy who at least historically would take a like get a roundtrip flight over the course of a day if he needed to work on something.

111:16 So he would he would like just fly to some random like basically book like a $200 roundtrip ticket >> and just to get like something done that they were avoiding. >> Wow, that makes that seems like there's much easier ways to do that. Drink a coffee or something. Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show, Morgan. Great catch. Yeah, great to see you. >> Have a great summer. You're the man. >> Let me tell you about console.com.

111:40 Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for assets, requests, and password resets. And let me also tell you about Crowdstrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. Crowdstrike secures AI and stops breaches. Well, we have Mark German joining the show in just a few minutes. >> You say the Germinator. Germinators back in the Ultradoo getting us up to speed on what's happening in the thermonuclear war between Apple and Open AI. And so he is here. Let's bring in Mark German, the Germinator himself to take us through his excellent reporting as always.

112:18 Congratulations on the scoop. Take us through it. Friday, what was your day like? What happened? What's the headline? >> Friday was great. you know, end of the work week. But, for me, there's really no end. It's Monday, Tuesday, it's the whole week. 7 days, 24/7. >> Apple suing or Yeah. Apple suing OpenAI. >> I didn't find it to be that big of a shock. I think things have been brewing. Yeah. >> for several months. This was a >> two-year relationship that went south >> pretty much in the first year. Okay.

112:55 >> I think it was doomed from the beginning. We can get into that. But OpenAI had been pillaging Apple's hardware engineering ranks, >> cloud department, many other aspects of the company >> for over a year. 400 people hired by OpenAI. And people move between companies all the time. But one company hiring 400 people from another company in such a short period of time. Yeah, >> it's absolutely insane.

113:25 >> And Apple and Apple, even with all the the competition, we talked about it from like Amazon and Microsoft and Meta, has never gone through this kind of they've never been paged in this way. >> Yeah. It's not like it's not like Bezos got 400 people from Apple working on the Fire Phone >> and everyone I' I've seen a million decks where like we got this guy who worked on iOS at Apple and it's like >> everyone says they worked on iOS at Apple. It's good for the resume.

113:52 whether it's true or not, you know, every company likes to say, "Oh, we got this big wig from Apple." And then, you know, you ask people at Apple about this person, like, "I've never heard of this guy. He didn't even work here." but that that's besides the point. The real story here is that Apple had known for a while now that there was probably some shady stuff going on when you have that many people. I mean the person running the hardware organization at OpenAI guy named Tang Tan he was heavily respected when he was at Apple but you know once he left Apple it was it was wartime.

114:23 This was a person who had been running the iPhone design team for many years paired with Johnny IV who was the designer you know alongside Steve Jobs for for decades. Iive's successor Evans Hanky who ran the ID studio the industrial design studio for three years after IV left. they set out to build the product to take down the iPhone. you know you can ask yourself is that even possible? But on the other hand the fact that these people you know worked for Apple for so long and they wanted to create sort of the antidote to Apple it's a scary thing for for Apple and that coincided with Apple facing its own AI struggles. right now their hardware engineering organization is going through the biggest transformation in decades. with John Turner stepping up to become CEO and Johnny Scrrewi the chips guy now becoming in charge of hardware engineering himself. you know he's a visionary when it comes to management and silicon but the big question is he a visionary when it comes to products obviously John Turnis will will help with that as well. So there's some big questions at Apple right now. Obviously it's been a very long time since they had a big new hit.

115:30 The Vision Pro was a complete flop. And so this company combining the best AI, right, Open AI, using some of Apple's best engineering talent, plus 390 of their best friends from Apple. It's a scary site for Apple. >> Yeah. >> You know, they maintain that this lawsuit was not about slowing down Open AI. >> It's because they were able to find, they're not calling this, but I can't think of a better term. They knew some shady stuff was going on. And they found a smoking gun, right? Smoking Gun was this young iPhone engineer who went from Apple to open eye at the beginning of this year. And it's a crazy story. He kept a MacBook. He had this relationship. They're not saying if it was like a romantic relationship or whatnot, but I have to imagine that probably had a component there.

116:16 he was working with this girl who was still at Apple who eventually went over to OpenAI and he had found some flaw in the their cloud network and was working with her to get stuff even though he was still working at Open AI. So, you know, you could make a Netflix special out of this or you can make an Apple TV special out of this but they'll never go for that. >> maybe it'll be on Amazon.

116:36 >> A lot of interesting stuff. Yeah. And then they kept digging. They found a bunch of stuff on Tang Tan and they built this lawsuit around this guy who worked at Apple for 25 years. everything that I'm told about Tang Tan is obviously a brilliant guy. >> He grew very close to the sun is what a few people told me. I'm not going to say he did shady things, but he did what he needed to do to help make the iPhone the most successful consumer gadget and it's well-designed piece of machinery, you know, most successful consumer product ever, what one could argue.

117:08 >> so they knew some of his tactics. he helped build >> Wait. So So you're saying there was an awareness at Apple that he was basically like always playing to win very aggressively like potentially blurring some some lines. >> Yes. Yes. So they knew their players. >> Got it. >> And so they knew this guy was going to do anything to get things done. But they weren't able to sue them until they found this kid. one thing I'll say and it's kind of unfortunate. There's two people at OpenAI on LinkedIn with the same name. There's the guy who's named the lawsuit and there's another dude at OpenAI with the same name.

117:45 and maybe he works for TV. No, I'm just joking. and I see a bunch of people posting on LinkedIn or on Twitter, whatnot, a screenshot. I'm like, you've got the wrong dude. And so, you know, whenever there's a >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. whenever there's like the big tragedy or whatever, everyone goes out to try to find the guy's name and everyone posts the wrong Facebook account. So, this guy is getting blamed for getting blamed for it, but has nothing to do with him.

118:10 >> Yes. There there's also an an actor with the name Chang Leu and he has some very iconic photos on the internet because he's like a basically a male model and it confus >> I think I saw that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. he looks he looks like Yeah. just like a a model straight out of the runway. what does the timeline for this case look I was digging into XAI's lawsuit against OpenAI filed about a year ago. Just was dismissed I guess a month ago.

118:45 >> is that about app store ranking? >> No, no, no. XA SpaceX currently has an ongoing lawsuit with Apple about the app store ranking. That has not been decided. But separately, XAI sued OpenAI for poaching employees and potentially getting those employees to share secrets of how Grock is trained. That's the allegation. And that case was just dismissed last month on the 15th, but it took a year to get there. And I'm wondering because we have that as an example. We also have the Samsung Apple battle that took eight years and ultimately ended in a settlement. And I'm just wondering about how you're feeling about the pace of things. There was sort of a quick back and forth on X.

119:26 some comments from OpenAI leaders. but how will this story actually evolve and play out? >> It all depends. I mean, OpenAI is going to fight Apple like hell. They'll have a law firm involved. in fact, you know, OpenAI hired a law. won't use chat. >> Cardex bearish >> new models. >> They hired they they actually hired a law firm a couple months ago >> and they were going to sue Apple over the relationship when it came to the Apple Intelligence Siri deal. So, they've got lawyers looking into this and working on this.

119:59 >> I wonder So, Apple saying that they reached out to OpenAI in February about their concerns over trade secrets and whatnot. I wonder if OpenAI started preparing its lawsuit against Apple as part of a you know down the line counter suit type of situation or is in response to Apple's letter to every neither here nor there. I think this could take several months to to years. It really depends. The discovery process is going to take a while. But if I'm going to be really honest with you, I don't think the courtroom timeline really matters. I mean matters to some extent, but the bigger picture already happened. If you're an Apple employee and you're thinking about joining OpenAI right now, >> sure.

120:41 >> First of all, you're going to keep your mouth shut. You're not going to tell anyone. Yeah. Right. >> they're going to walk you out. >> Yeah. >> It is not a good thing to be someone at Apple right now. who's thinking about joining opening app? You're going to have Apple security all over you. Your manager is going to despise you >> and everything you did from they're going to be watching every website you went to on your computer for the last month. So, so you got to know that you're going to be really clean if you're thinking about that. Yeah.

121:06 >> Yeah. So, if you're thinking about going Open AI and you're at Apple, the way Apple wrote this lawsuit, you'd have to be out of your mind to not think twice about it. >> And I think that Apple needed to stop the bleeding to open AI. >> and this lawsuit, >> yeah, >> is certainly going to to help with that. >> The other thing is is you're going to have Tang Tan, all those guys caught up in depositions and discovery and meetings with lawyers. Now, it's like, >> how are you supposed to launch a product? How are you supposed to do your job if you're stuck in the office all day with lawyers?

121:36 >> Sure. Sure. >> everything is going to need to be cleaned up. They're gonna need to work in a clean room like environment now. They're going to investigate what kind of Apple IP is in there. And even if if Opening I did nothing wrong, >> all the work that's need that's going to need to be done to prove that this is just going to be a big waste of time for everyone. So, by just filing the lawsuit, Apple accomplished quite a bit.

121:56 >> Yeah. So, how do you think a a company like Apple who notoriously is, you know, very protective about internal secrets, process, supplier, you know, all these different things. is in the middle of of getting, you know, you know, the craziest talent raid in consumer electronics history and then just like has someone go out the door and and they're not even, you know, we were reading Ben Thompson's piece earlier just and he was kind of mocking Apple's security and and as I was reading the complaint, I was thinking back to the deal sort of rippling drama that happened last year and how the guy was kind of set up in some way.

122:45 >> And and I was thinking like is Apple is Apple savvy enough to to like >> try to create a smoking gun by being like, "Yeah, let's not let's just let it Yeah, >> this is full tin foil." >> Yeah. You think Apple just made this whole thing up? >> No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying like it would be crazy to me if you get you're getting people post and you're not like, "Oh, yeah. We should make sure all the >> Oh, you're leaving the company. Sure.

123:12 Keep just keep your laptop kind of thing for a couple months. >> Yeah, >> that'd be wild wild twist. Well, I mean I I'm sure more information will come out. and >> the discovery process is going to be very exciting, very interesting. I think Apple has a very high burden of proof here from a legal standpoint. I'm not a lawyer, but being able to prove that its IP is within certain products is going to be it's going it's going to be difficult to prove. So we'll see also the also the narrowing of like what is a trade secret because like it's been this like awkward reality in the AI race that when a AI researcher leaves for another lab, they basically take the architecture that isn't necessarily patented and is sort of a trade secret.

123:57 Like they take that with them and they just say, "Oh yeah, like we should probably train a model of this size or we should probably include some of this training data and that's why we've seen the frontier." But that's very different from hardware stuff with patents and >> right I would like to know what trade secrets or what Apple will be able to claim as a trade secret ends up in these products because as you know and everyone listening to this knows hardware is incredibly commoditized.

124:22 there are >> hundreds of companies that make electronics in the same space at Apple all over the world and being able to prove that you're using Apple technology to release your phone and build your phone and develop your phone that's going to be very difficult. I I I don't see this being a clean victory for Apple if it goes to a jury trial. They don't in my guess is they're not going to have remember the Samsung trial. This is what Samsung phones look like before the iPhone. This is what the iPhone looked like. This is what Samsung phones look like, right? They broke it down so a third grader would understand it. It was very easy to follow.

124:56 >> Sure. >> Short of that, I I just don't see how Apple could win a jury case here. And if you read the complaint, over and over again, Apple acknowledges that they don't really know what is really happening here. They know enough to know there's something shady going on and we need to discovery discovery to figure out what is going on. And so they'll they'll do that. But I'd be very surprised if they find something. And the other part of this is there's a few things that you can really make a trade secret case on right now. that's silicon and Apple has very proprietary silicon code, the way they develop chips and design chips and they went after this company called Revos that Meta ended up buying and they got major changes made to how Revos operates.

125:42 >> the other one you mentioned is AI. you know there's no AI thing that OpenAI is stealing from Apple and from the chip side everything we know is that OpenAI is using Qualcomm and third party chip providers. So, >> I'm very curious to see what Apple ends up finding. >> Interesting. >> I'm sure they'll find some good text messages and emails, though. >> Yeah. Can you take us back in time to Johnny Ives departure, the birth of IO, how that was perceived within Apple?

126:11 Because it feels like when the acquisition happened, it was 55 employees at IO at the time. a lot of them exapp. and Ben Thompson pointed out that he said, "I think Apple feels betrayed not just by Tan, but also Johnny IV. start with the fact that I've framed his partnership with OpenAI as an attempt to undo the harms he thought were caused by the smartphone. not exactly a ringing endorsement. So you see these, you know, people leave and they're like, "Oh, like we, you know, we need we needed the antidote to the social media thing." This is a common a common thread that that people pull on in their second act of their career. But what was the IO journey? Was it pretty smooth when that happened? Was this something like if if you play out a different scenario and IO is just consulting for you know a Samsung and you know Ferrari and a bunch of other you know companies that are not like directly at each other's throats new hyperscalers a disruptive AI take off all of that what how does the story look then >> so the story well let's I'm not going to get into the Johnny I stuff right now but you know Tink Tan he tells John Turnis by the way the other side of this thing is him and Tis hate each other I'm happy to go into that.

127:22 >> But Turnis, you know, he was up for the SVP of hardware job in 2020. >> Tang Tan and a lot of the people at Apple who now are at IO and at OpenAI, they wanted Tang to be the new head of hardware engineering because they enjoyed working with him on the product design side of things and the ID studio and product design works very closely together. Tang had run the iPhone side of things. Turnis for a number of years was running the iPad and the Mac side of things. He had felt that a lot of the core technologies that Tang was working on, you know, they got iPhone priority and he didn't really want to share that with the iPad and the Mac team. you know, now Turnist, Tim Cook, are sort of getting the last laugh sort of, you know, giving Tang that reputation that he's not going to ever be able to drop of being someone who's sort of they didn't say the words, but a ring leader around this. so that's what happened. He tells Apple at the end of 23 he's leaving. Turnis lets him stick around through February of 24 because Tang's role at Apple was so big.

128:27 He had his tentacles and so many different things. They actually had to replace him by splitting up his responsibilities if I remember correctly across five or six or seven different people. Wow. >> so it took a lot of time to unwind. He behind the scenes was already working with Johnny IV and Sam Alman and some of these other folks on creating this company. I think the origin story of IO is they knew all along that they were going to get acquired by OpenAI.

128:51 >> The other part and this sort of got buried when OpenAI acquired IO but like OpenAI already owned 25% of IO if I remember correctly for a year or maybe more before the acquisition of OpenAI buying IO was announced. so that's pretty interesting. >> Neither here nor there. IO, they're filled with some of the best talent who's ever worked at Apple. >> combining the best talent that's ever worked at Apple with the w with the AI acumen of OpenAI is a scary site, I would say.

129:30 >> Oh, no. They're going to have to pivot to a VR headset. >> My dream. I just want another VR headset. >> That's all I want, but I don't think I'm getting it. Yeah, me and me only. I'm the only one that's going to get it. H it's it's rough. what what else is what else is new in in Apple world? What else are you covering? >> outside of this >> lots of stuff lots of stuff to come.

129:52 >> Yeah. >> Apple's going to start its biggest new product period in its history. >> Yeah. >> this fall >> and and at higher prices, right? Like the the the memory shortage is very real. it was sort of like a delayed announcement post WWDC, but you know, that the the quick the the strategy there was like rip the band-aid off after WWDC, but with enough time for everyone to absorb the news before the products are launched. Is that generally the the theory there?

130:22 >> Well, you know, they hit the point where they couldn't impact their margins anymore. Obviously, they're reporting earnings at the end of this month, so they'll talk more about that. Yeah. >> but the big picture here is the iPhone is going to get its price hike in September. >> everything I'm told is that the cost to build because of the memory makes these phones $150 to $200 more expensive a unit. >> So I think they're going to raise the prices by $150 to $200. They don't want to give up that margin. I mean the fact that nobody's buying the Vision Pro and Apple hiked the price up by 200 bucks anyways because of the memory tells you everything you need to know. This is not a company that's going to compromise on its margins.

130:59 >> Sure. Is there any world where vertical integration around memory is on the table like going deeper there locked even like the Southwest bought all those like futures on oil and had cheap gas and cheap flights for a long time like you know even if you're not AGI built and you don't build the foundation model there's still a world where you go lock up really long memory contracts and keep your prices down. >> I don't see it happening >> just not culturally the value >> I don't Yeah, I don't see it happening.

131:28 How is >> I think they're trying to get the suppliers to expand. >> Sure. Yeah. >> How has Apple's relationship with TSMC evolved or changed across the AI boom? >> Mhm. >> Ooh. Well, I think the long and the short of it is that, you know, Apple's still the preferred customer of TSMC, but there are plenty of other customers now that are a big piece of the pie. >> And so, I think the relationship still remains very strong.

131:54 >> but I don't think this is exclusively because of the AI boom. And you can see now Apple looking at secondary potential third suppliers on silicon. You've seen that with Intel. they've talked to Samsung as well. but the TSMC relationship and everything I understand is still as strong as ever. It's just Apple's not the only game in town as a customer at this point. >> Mhm. well, thank you so much for taking the time to come break it down for us. We appreciate you.

132:20 >> You got it. >> Hopping on. >> Congrats again on a >> on a major scoop. On a major scoop. How much how much time did did you were you able to were you able to like pre-write your article before the actual complaint was live or did you did it go live and then you wrote it? >> Did I write my article before the complaint was live? >> Like did you know it was about >> Good question. I'll I'll tell you next time.

132:51 >> Thank you so much for coming. Great to see you Mark. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about public. Whether you're long, long Apple, short Apple, Public has investing for those who take it seriously. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. Let me also tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents.

133:17 >> Yes. >> Yeah, I can see why he wouldn't actually want to answer that question after I set it up. >> He knows everything. Nothing happens in Certino without Mark Gurman knowing first. there's a interesting AI threshold that was broken over the weekend. I didn't know that I wanted my, my, my goalposts in this particular area, but I like this. So, Ethan Mollik shared this. he says, "This was one of those impressive AI thresholds for me. I gave GPT 5.6 six soul in codeex control over my computer and asked it to win the daily challenge for the game slay the spire two randomized factors so it can't cheat you can't just look up the answer and he said it worked for five hours making complex game choices and one and I've been a huge fan of Slay the Spire I really enjoy this game I don't know that I didn't know that there was a there was a sequel I guess there's a sequel out already but it is sort of a it's a slowpaced game it's turnbased so You can take as long as you want to make every decision and so it's not real time so it's somewhat suitable for this but it makes me very very clear that the these are great benchmarks for computer use because you can you know RL on certain Pokemon benches that you know the data will flow in once it becomes a big trend but if you can just fire up some random game that you find personally interesting and watch a coding agent sort of win that game just through computer use. that's going to be a very visceral field the AGI moment for a lot of people. what do you think?

134:55 >> I mean yeah I think the current coding models are are not good at this because they're like a little bit too slow. Yeah. but if you remember standard intelligence had that computer agent model where it was like playing games in the browser. >> Yeah. so I like that's like a very different architecture from like what you know codeex is using right now or whatever cloud code but >> I think it should be very possible. >> So yeah I mean there's been a lot of advancements in AI that can that can win games but it needs a very specific harness like it always needs to have some sort of like the the the output is is is basically JSON or something and that's translated into actions in the game. what's so cool about this demo is that there is no harness.

135:37 It's just moving the mouse and clicking the buttons. and it learns all of that on the fly, which I think is really cool. Which means that we need to move the goalpost one more time because we are coining and we are creating rust bench, which is not the programming language Rust. It is the level in Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2, right? >> you need to be able to beat Jordy on Rust if you're building a coding agent.

136:01 Wait, that's Oh, it's >> Isn't it COD 4? >> Oh, is it Call of Duty >> MW2. >> Wait, which one is it? >> We play Modern Warfare. >> We play Yeah, we play COD and we play Rust and you and >> and the fact that you guys can't even get it straight. >> We are going to set up >> taking it serious. >> Codex on Rust and we are going to 1v one it hopefully and hopefully defeat it for a very long time because humans must stay in control. But I have a feeling that the AI will win eventually. But it might take the cerebrous chips. It's going to have to think pretty quickly.

136:34 Think on its feet. because 5 hours to win Slay the Spire. I think it it takes a normal person like maybe 30 minutes, 45 minutes to win one of those challenges. we're getting called not real gamers. It's really rough right now. We're getting absolutely destroyed. >> Damn. Young John would be just so disappointed. >> It's been a while. Let me tell you about Codeex. Codeex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents and playing video games. Now, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. And we have our next guest with us in the end Ultra. This is big and relates to what we were talking about earlier.

137:11 >> What's going on, guys? How you guys doing? >> Yo, thank you guys for having us and congrats. >> Congrats on the acquisition. I remember seeing Codex ads, ads. >> Hi for you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Great to see you. >> And Michael, we are honored to have you on the show. So, >> Nico, why don't >> we we've been dreaming actually dreaming about the like dreaming about this moment. We've talked we've we've John and I have talked on and off air about >> wanting to get some of the greatest Excel jockeyies on the show. We finally did it courtesy of Nico.

137:46 >> So, maybe quick introductions. >> Yeah, Nico. Yeah. Set the scene for us. Why are we talking? Why are the three of us talking with the Excel world champion? >> Yes, >> for sure. For sure. yeah, guys, I'm Nico. We chatted about a year ago when we launched the first like superhuman Excel agent. We launched Shortcut like a big storm and we've been like heads down in spreadsheet hell for like a year trying to build an agent that was really, really freaking good.

138:10 >> a whole combination of things happened that I felt like we did pass this threshold where maybe it's at the level of a Michael German or dimmerly. And I'll let Michael introduce himself, but I flew down to San Diego last week, nervous as hell, calendared a studio. We rented it out and competed live on four official championship models, me versus Michael. And of course, I had shortcut, but Michael had his, you know, big brain. >> There you go.

138:33 >> Michael, when did you first >> name do you remember your first Excel session? >> That's a great question. I think it would have been when I was about seven or eight. I think for some reason I decided I want to wanted to put the 2002 World Cup in Excel. I mean, somebody else had already done this cuz somebody else was running the tournament, but I decided that 7-year-old me could do it instead. that's my earliest memory with Excel, but yeah, since then, sort of built a career doing various things in Excel, and it's now a competitive esport for reasons that I still don't really understand. But, it's it's fantastic. There's a great community around it. It's surprisingly watchable. and yeah, I won that competition in 2024. There's a financial modeling sort of World Cup that is sort of a little quieter. I won that last year, which is why Nico decided that I should represent humanity and see if we can all keep our jobs.

139:29 >> What What is the shape of of the challenges in an esports competition around XL? How much randomness is in there? I mean, I've seen I've seen the the screen recordings where you have to change the color of a bunch of cells, reshuffle, sort things, right? formulas, but how much do you know going in? How how defined is like the the the the scope of problem that they're going to give you? >> Yeah, I know the videos you're talking about. It's it's some dude who like speeduns like doing all that. That's not what we do. that I do not have the dexterity for that at all. Interesting.

140:04 so what we do is it's more sort of problem solving in Excel. A bit like a hackathon essentially. So, you know, you'd be modeling some sort of board game or, you know, navigating around a map. the year I won, you sort of had 20 characters in World of Warcraft cuz they were sponsoring it that year and you sort of had to track track them leveling up and doing quests and whatnot. it can be very very random like what comes up like whether or not it's your sort of question or someone else's like there's a vast array of things that people can do using spreadsheets. So yeah the question makers do make a good effort of trying to make a variety of topics for people to ask questions.

140:41 >> And then on the actual grading how much is qualitative versus like once the solution has been found the buzzer buzzes and it's deterministic every single time like pure math versus there's oh you know you got a nine out of 10 from this judge because there's some style points in there. >> No there's no marks for style at all which I think is for the best. I think if people had to spend times making things look pretty, I don't think it would be nearly as entertaining. It's entirely deterministic. Like somebody else has already calculated what the answers are. and then as you're copying them in, they either go, "Yeah, you've got them right or no, you haven't."

141:18 >> Okay. Is there anyone who tries to basically isue Excel entirely and solve the problem with Visual Basic? Because if I believe if I understand correctly, Excel has like a VBA back end and you can basically write you know you know programming language you can just write code. >> Yeah, absolutely. So there's nobody who tries to solve it entirely in Visual Basic just because anybody who's watched this who watching this who's coded in VBA knows it's a terrible language. It's so slow to get going. There's bits there's chunks of code people have especially for things like looking at the colors of cells. like if you've got a map and like the blue cells are water, the green cells are land. There's no native way in Excel to do that with formulas. So, you need VBA for that.

142:03 There is one guy who there's now Python in Excel that's been there for about 2 years, I think. and like you write some Python code, it gets sent to Microsoft, they run it, they send you back the answer. And there's one guy who competes in that and does quite well. his general thing is he's very slow to get going, but when he gets going, he sort of, you know, really starts to pick up pace. So again it's a little bit of the randomness of what sort of case comes up. Some suit him, some suit him less.

142:28 >> And then what is the what are the rules around artificial intelligence co-pilots? There's there's you know AI is coming to Excel. do you think competitors will will freeze on a particular version of Excel that doesn't have AI or will there be an AI subcategory that allows you to use some co-pilots everything unlimited unrestricted you know you know and no rules apply categories. How will all that play out? >> Yeah, so AI is banned in the main competition. It's getting increasingly difficult to it's making stuff that looks more and more like a human would compared to sometime maybe 18 months ago.

143:08 >> maybe they'll start running like an AI assisted competition. I know a few people have talked about that. I don't think it'll be very popular. Like you look at the World Chess Championship, people watch that. There is a World Chess Engine Championship. People don't watch that as much. >> so, but yeah, it's currently banned. I think we're still going to want to keep on the the latest version of Excel cuz they're adding other stuff to it that's quite helpful. Like they added Reax about a year ago. So, we didn't have that. Some people would complain.

143:35 but yeah, at the moment it's kind of an honor code. Like when you get to Vegas where it is to do the finals live and you obviously can't just be like, "Hi, Chat GPT. Do this for me cuz someone will notice." >> at home it's currently an honor code which is Yeah. something we're finding harder and harder to police. >> Yeah, that makes sense. so Nico like what are you learning from Excel Championships competitive? Yeah. Yeah.

143:58 Yeah. Yeah. This is your competition. is there training data to be learned? Are there sort of like the the rough edges of the spiky intelligence? You notice things at at the at the top tier level that then can be applied for everyday users that use your product. How are you actually working together? >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I wanted to know that like one could you really compete at this high level and what has to be true for you to get there and how much of this is like mastering the art of using AI versus how much could you like institute into the product as like a first class just experience for everybody and it turns out that like you have to be really good at using sorry really good at using AI >> to even have a chance. So like when I competed, I actually did some practice cases at home all weekend before leading up and like AI will take the same way in coding like the path of least resistance. It'll be like okay well I didn't check every single question. I looked at the hints and then decided what I should answer and I'm like no and you'll see this in my prompts. I'm like do a blank space audit spin-off adversarial review sub aents of multi different model types of the frontier to see that like you know they think differently. They don't want you to catch yourself and with enough advoc like with enough verification loops you can clearly get 100% on like any realistically hard challenge that is verifiable. but that's not how most people use AI. And I wanted to know what what it required to get there and then work backwards from like how do you bake this into the product because there's a trade-off to these things and you know I actually didn't even use the best model like I didn't use fable.

145:21 >> I had to use Opus 48 fast >> because it's the right spot of the PTO frontier because I would probably have lost >> on speed >> to Michael if I if I used Fable because we were getting 100% accuracy on almost every question >> but I was you know faster because of the model I had chosen. Is there strong transfer learnings from these verifiable tasks versus the less verifiable stuff that people do in in Excel all day long?

145:42 Like like the average investment banker who's doing a DCF, like it's not like at the end of the day they're like, "Yep, the share price should be $200." You know, you're you're building a a case. You're >> right. Right. So, in I would say AI is better suited for the contest than it is for real Excel work in that like this is like you asked first, which is is this programmatically verifiable? Like is there true or not true? And the answer is yes here because we have a contest.

146:06 But if this was judged by a committee of like experts based on taste, it would be way harder. now you can say that as AI becomes more tasteful and it is you see this on front ends like it's getting a taste for what looks right. we benefit from that. But there's another more difficult form of verification which is like okay well there's 20 ways to make a DCF. They all look great but one is specific to your company. Like how do you learn that? And that is like the real longtail product learning curve that we bake in with our customers. Like that's the real challenge right now is AI will do things right, but there's a million there's a million right ways >> among among your customers. What what does demand for speed look like? Like I mean we were talking about cerebrus like there's this tradeoff and I feel like for like the nature of an investment banker is at least on the junior level is often the MD is like turn this around ASAP because the client is meeting in an hour and I need you to do as fast as possible and there's no excuse for well I'm using a really solid model but it's going to take five hours to get back to me. what does demand look like? What are customers telling you? Oh man. I I don't think enough people are talking about Cerebras or whatever other alternative ways there are to get to like whatever tokens per second that was. It was like 156 broadly, you know, style >> like it's going to open up computer use.

147:21 It's going to open up everything. Now you have to hit you have to hit a certain level of competency and accuracy first before it even matters at all. But we are sort of there with soul and fable now. like for example we even with Opus 48 fast we turn like an operating model build out with like 15 quarters of histo 15 years of historical goals for quarters like that can take 30 hours for a hedge fun to build and then two hours to update every quarter. We do that like in 1 hour and then 10 minutes.

147:44 >> Wow. >> now we could get that to like >> 10 times faster. And that's actually what's going to be a huge unlock because hedge funds for example want to track not 200 companies a pod but 2,000 but you cannot do that because they're Excel firepower bottlenecked. M >> there's another bottleneck which I think the future will care about, but it's like even if it's faster, it has to run headlessly because you're not going to open up 50 models or a thousand models like on your computer. And Excel does not run headlessly.

148:10 >> I bet you it will soon though >> at all. There's no there's >> you can do some clever clever arrangement of like VMs with like expensive licenses and like some companies might do this to get around the bottlenecks, but I'm I would I actually don't know for sure, but I would bet my life that Microsoft is working on this. >> Interesting. Nico, are you recruiting Michael yet? >> Michael, no. I don't think I could afford Michael. No, >> I would say Michael. Well, the best form of recruiting was after the contest, Michael asked me if we can get his team on shortcut >> and we did.

148:42 >> There you go. Wait, so Michael, what do you what what's your what's your what do you do dayto-day when you're not >> winning world championships? >> Yeah. So, I've about six months ago, I moved into private equity investing in freight rail across North America. >> Thank you. Thank you for your service. >> All right, brothers. >> Appreciate it. >> Faith in humanity restored. >> I needed that today. I needed that today. Thank you guys. >> To know that our best and brightest are still choosing private equity.

149:11 >> Yes. >> And not giving in to you know the Nikos of the world building our future. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Make you know making the the roll up the path. >> Well congratulations to you both. Thank you. Really really fascinating guys to come. Great to see you Nico and great to meet you Michael. >> Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk. Thanks for having me. >> Goodbye. >> Bye. >> private equity got a good one.

149:40 >> Dan Primac showed a little tinfoil hat theory. He is beginning to wonder if Sun Valley is really organized by Getty Images and Allen and Co is just a front. I wonder if they actually do you think Getty Images actually sees an uptick in sales around Sun Valley or is this just like tech insider baseball exclusively? You have to imagine like MetGala sells more Getty Images than Sun Valley. It's more of just >> Yeah, I think it's it's a good bit. The funny thing is like even being in tech media, we don't see that Getty Images has a bunch of photos of Sun Valley and think, "Okay, got to go sign up for Getty." Sure. Like if a cool one pops up, it's like great.

150:20 >> And you kind of want the watermark on there because it's like a status symbol that it was taken by a paparazzi and not by just some some random person. speaking of our previous conversation on on betting, risk maxing says, "A 9 to5 isn't a career. It's a supply chain for casino ammo." >> And that is certainly one way to look at it. Although that's not how we think about our work here, gentlemen. >> No, we respect the dollar like Nick Cage. Tai Lopez calls money fuel units. I always thought that was a funny funny turn of phrase. Fuel I call them fuel units. I call them fuel units.

150:55 Well, this person calls him casino ammo, which is very silly. no two countries with an AI data center have ever gone to war with each other. Is that true? That seems potentially true. What else is going on in the timeline? >> major innovation in fashion. Let's pull this video up. >> I haven't seen this. >> Silva says, "This is the greatest invention created since AI." >> Okay. >> It is a polo and a quarter zip. >> Oh, it's all one.

151:20 >> That's a one. >> Wow. There we go. What is this? What is this Kazakhstan ad? There's a targeted ad on Instagram says if you love Tiramisu, you should visit Kazakhstan. >> No, just try Kazakhstan. >> Try Kazakhstan. Is Is that an aerial photo of an area in Kazakhstan? >> Yeah, it looks like some sort. beautiful image, but I don't know what it has to do with >> but I I've actually seen ads from the Kazakhstan Board of Tourism before. They they have a pretty significant firepower when it comes to advertising.

151:59 I want to play this this reel of this gentleman who's practicing his robot skills so he can take AI's job because it's my new favorite genre. I'm seeing less AI videos and more people doing AI impressions going viral. It's a very weird outcome. Everyone said that the This is This is the best. This is incredible acting. Look at this guy. So good. Uncanny. Uncannily accurate. Uncannily accurate. no, no, there's like a whole subgenre of people that just do impressions of the AI slop. There's that guy who does the chatting with the voice mode and it always gets wrong and and I see more of those than people actually generating AI voices and I've also see there's this group >> You mean the off payroll QA tester?

152:52 >> Yeah, exactly. Offbalance sheet quality assurance. I see there's this there's this group of of of guys who make Instagram videos that imitate AI videos. And it's fascinating because you notice once they do the impression of the AI video, all the little quirks and tells of AI video, like they'll be saying lines and they they pre-rehearse the lines and they have everyone in the shot move their mouth to the line even if only one of them is saying it because that's something AI videos do a lot apparently. And then it has these odd like push-in camera moves that happen all the time. It's very very funny.

153:34 >> we never talked about how I was referencing the turn it down meme with Alexis. I wasn't picking it up. You guys caught that. >> Yeah, they caught it. I heard them. >> I was like, "Do any of the athletes turn it down?" He's like, "No, actually." And I was like, "How much can you make? 10, 15?" >> Ridiculous. >> pull up this last video. We'll close out the show with it. >> from Emily, who >> she's been on a tear. Every video is going viral.

154:03 actor. >> I think she's a she's a real She does voice acting for for radio ads, but of course is making fun of the tech industry. I think >> your business runs on business, but your business's business is stuck in the past until now. Introducing business AI for business. >> Sounds like something AI for business leverages the power of business AI for your business. Transforming your business into AI business with business AI for business. Business AI does your business in seconds, leaving your team to focus on the important business of your business, business. Now your business is free to run your business at scale, at speed, at AI. The future of business isn't coming. It's here.

154:49 Business AI for business. Business AI business. Business AI. AI AI. >> Very talented. said the funny she's saying every voice over script right now which I would assume that this kind of like audio is like AI is really good at >> but but I think some of the AI companies are laring and they don't know how good the the voice models have gotten so they haven't actually >> they hire a voice actor to read the most AI laden script of all time >> so so I like sometimes I listen to the radio on the way to work and I hear ads like this and they're always by these like big legacy companies >> so I assume that's why they're not using like actual cutting edge technology bullish for voiceover artists, I guess, reading AI for business ads.

155:32 >> Last video of the day. >> Yeah. >> Did you see this? there's a clip from SpaceX's new launch site. >> It looks like Dune. It actually looks like Dune. I'm pretty sure SpaceX accidentally built a transformer. At least that's what it sounds like here. And so you can play This is designed to to hold all the rockets so they can launch them, I think, every hour. >> Let's get some audio. Look at this. How do they They shot this with a drone.

156:01 This is Dune in real life. Look at this. The engineering that goes into this just so thinking so far ahead. Like I think this is designed to launch a starship every hour. Y >> and it's like >> they said that it's something like an Olympic swimming pool's worth of water that they use to >> cool everything. Yeah, the deluge. There's another video here. this new critical path video is just mind-blowing. Love the deluge part of the story. You can play this video. This is crazy.

156:38 >> Neighborhood of about 650,000 gallons per minute. That's approximately in the range of about like one entire Olympic swimming pool being drained in the course of a minute. >> Is that for when it takes off >> reflector on pad 2? We're sitting somewhere in the neighborhood of about 650,000 gallons per minute. >> That's approximately in the range of about like one entire Olympic swimming pool being drained in the course of a minute.

157:10 >> This is how they quantify. This is the kind of thing you can imagine you know maybe a world in the future where humanity has left earth >> and and another another group comes and visits and they're looking at this thing likeology. >> What were they cooking? >> What were they cooking? Imagine if you had the world's biggest machine gun and it's just firing 11 pickup trucks per second out of the bottom of the rocket. Has to be the most American measurement of all in all aerospace history. I love it. Always put it in always put the power of your rocket in pickup trucks per second, I suppose. anyway, thank you for tuning in to TBNN. We will see you tomorrow at 11:00 a.m. Pacific.

157:52 Sharp. And leave us five stars on Apple Podcast and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter at tvn.com. We'll see you tomorrow. Goodbye.